• 128 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
Avatar image for erik
#51 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

You do realize the Batman and Dick are master escape artists? Did Gambit and X-23 travel the world and train extensively in how to track someone, let alone two of the greatest hide-and-go-seek players of all time?

Gambit did travel the world but he did not do it for the training. He was raised in the best thieves guild in the world. X-23 had the best money could buy brought to her.

It is a moot point anyway considering there is going to be no traps set.

Avatar image for god_spawn
#52 Posted by God_Spawn (42812 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

You do realize the Batman and Dick are master escape artists? Did Gambit and X-23 travel the world and train extensively in how to track someone, let alone two of the greatest hide-and-go-seek players of all time?

That's beside the point. They are in a close vicinity with an master thief and a clone of one of the most deadly characters to ever spawn. X-23 doesn't need to to travel the globe when it's a simple matter of breathing. She is no slower than any of them and I might say she could possibly be a bit faster. She was trained as an assassin from birth and was killing men as a little girl. She knows how to track people and starting close to catch their scent there shouldn't be a reason she can't find them.

Moderator
Avatar image for imthedamnbatman
#53 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3973 posts) - - Show Bio

i cannot post scans at this time, but you can have my word. Batman has hidden from Superman when he was in close proximity of Superman. Superman had no idea where he went, considering they had only been about 20-25 feet apart. Now, I don't know much about X-23, but I doubt her senses match that of Superman, and if Batman can ditch Superman...

Avatar image for erik
#54 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

i cannot post scans at this time, but you can have my word. Batman has hidden from Superman when he was in close proximity of Superman. Superman had no idea where he went, considering they had only been about 20-25 feet apart. Now, I don't know much about X-23, but I doubt her senses match that of Superman, and if Batman can ditch Superman...

Batman does not have that device on him regularly. That is special equipment. Which means he does not have it here.

Avatar image for imthedamnbatman
#55 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3973 posts) - - Show Bio

Device? I don't think you and i are on the same page. are you talking about the field he surrounded himself with to ward off Superman?

Avatar image for erik
#56 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

Device? I don't think you and i are on the same page. are you talking about the field he surrounded himself with to ward off Superman?

Yes. He had some kind of gadget that masked his heartbeat.

Avatar image for god_spawn
#57 Posted by God_Spawn (42812 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik said:

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

Device? I don't think you and i are on the same page. are you talking about the field he surrounded himself with to ward off Superman?

Yes. He had some kind of gadget that masked his heartbeat.

And I don't see how he can avoid her sense of smell without any prep. He just knows she has a HF and that's it here.

Moderator
Avatar image for god_spawn
#58 Posted by God_Spawn (42812 posts) - - Show Bio

Kevlar+Batfactor= scent gone.

Moderator
Avatar image for thesuperhuman
#59 Posted by TheSuperHuman (1310 posts) - - Show Bio

Team two should be a good match for the Dark Knight and Dark... bird...

Avatar image for imthedamnbatman
#60 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3973 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think so. He only made that field so Superman wouldn't touch him or a civilian would die. I don't remember it having a heartbeat masker. Also, he doesn't need prep to hide from people. Among the smells of Gotham, I believe his suit would mask most sweat and body odor.

Avatar image for imthedamnbatman
#61 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3973 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik I might be remembering it wrong though, or we might be talking of different instances. Could you post a scan because i can't?

Avatar image for neek_03
#62 Posted by NEEK_03 (1293 posts) - - Show Bio

bruce does have a gadget to mask his heart beat, i have the scan if u need it. he also can disappear instantly, i can show a scan where he vanishes instantly.

http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Stealth/?action=view&current=superbatsecretfiles03-whereisthebat.jpg

or here he vanishes and the flash with his super speed cant track him.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batstealthflash1.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batstealthflash2.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batstealthflash3.jpg

Avatar image for imthedamnbatman
#63 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3973 posts) - - Show Bio

I know he has the gadget, i was wondering if he used it in the particular instance i'm thinking of.

Avatar image for petey_is_spidey
#64 Posted by Petey_is_Spidey (11528 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

I.A.T.

Avatar image for tdk_1997
#65 Posted by TDK_1997 (18553 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 can win.

Avatar image for erik
#66 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

@Erik I might be remembering it wrong though, or we might be talking of different instances. Could you post a scan because i can't?

I would but I do not remember the issue myself. If someone remembers which issue it is, I can post the scans for it.

Avatar image for jayfournines
#67 Posted by Jayfournines (4160 posts) - - Show Bio

Come on guys, Gambit and X-23 are basically fighting two Batmen, on top of that two Batmen who are ridiculously comfortable working as a team, hence why Bruce and Dick take it

haha

Avatar image for 80sbaby
#68 Posted by 80sBaby (1361 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 wins here. Bruce/Dick have way better teamwork, better tacticians, better HtH fighters, better intel and better feats overall.

Avatar image for saren
#69 Posted by Saren (27909 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik:

I never said Batman did not have sections that are bulletproof. I know his cowl, chest and gloves and boots are protected. But those are the only things I have ever seen protected against bullets or blade attacks.

His cape is protected as well.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Note that in the No Man's Land scans, Bruce remarks that he survived because he wasn't shot with armor-piercing rounds, indicating that his armor is in fact bulletproof, not just certain sections of his outfit.

And there are a few instances of criminals opening fire straight at his chest and remarking that he seemed bulletproof.

No Caption Provided

I don't have a scan of this unfortunately, but I seem to remember in one of the first few issues of the 2009 Batman and Robin series, Red Hood fires a shotgun at Dick's chest point blank and remarks that he knows it will not stop him because of the armor, though he will still feel pain.

In fact, I have seen Batman's suit torn on several occassions where he fought a particularly difficult opponent and aside from the parts I mentioned, there is no apparent protection underneath the cloth.

As have I. The only argument I can offer to this point is that the level of protection beneath the cloth varies.

Are we certain that Owen Mercer can move faster than Gambit?

I am fairly certain that Owen Mercer is faster than Gambit by a considerable margin.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7
I fully suspect that Batman can dodge one or two cards, Gambit is no Bullseye. But to assume that Batman will never get hit despite Gambit's abilities is a bit of a stretch. And what would Batman's strategy be? Close the gap and take it H2H? Get up close and personal with the guy whose touch can kill him? Throw a batarang at him when surely Gambit could catch and send it back charged?

Gambit could certainly tag them a few times, but I doubt that his attacks will have as much of an effect on them as their attacks will have on him. I don't know why we're talking about Gambit's touch killing Batman when this fight is in character and Gambit's knowledge of his opponents is just that they are skilled fighters. He is not killing anyone with a touch here. He has gone H2H with people before in character, and if he does so here he loses then and there since he cannot beat either Bruce or Dick in a H2H fight. And either Bruce or Dick only need to touch Gambit once to do this:

No Caption Provided

That is a 150,000 volt electrical charge, not something Gambit is going to just shrug off. I would raise an eyebrow if it did not KO him then and there, but at the very least he is going to be weakened a great deal by it. For comparison's sake, back in Dick's 1996-2009 solo series, he used a much weaker shock (I think it was 50,000 volts, can't be certain) and put a hurting on Grimm, a gorilla from Gorilla City. If Grodd and Solovar are any indication, the denizens of Gorilla City are so much more durable than Gambit it's not even funny.

And Gambit can catch a batarang, sure, but it is just as likely that the batarang can strike him as well. Batman's marksmanship showings have him slicing an arrow fired by Artemis in half mid-air with a batarang, and pulling off a shot that Deathstroke said was impossible to perform. At the highest/bordering on PIS end, he's taken out Zealot's eye with a batarang. Zealot is fast enough to fight Midnighter H2H for 4 hours non-stop, which as feats go is a lot more impressive than Gambit going toe-to-toe with Daredevil. Dick himself has used tranquilizer batarangs to tag and take down the Sensei, a man so fast he utterly curbstomped Batman during The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul.

  • I do not doubt Brick's durability. I doubt the strength of the bomb and the design of the suit as you seem to be leading me to believe. Batman is no Iron Man. I am fully willing to accept that the armor can save his life in certain explosive situations. I am not willing to accept that his suit can sustain artillery attacks in sections other than the ones I have been shown are protected. It makes no sense that the cloth of Batman's suit is heavy duty armor when we have seen key areas of it damaged and destroyed as normal cloth would be.

It makes even less sense that his suit can tank explosions from right in front of him and have absolutely nothing to show for it and yet be normal cloth in key areas. Normal cloth cannot do that.

  • And if that armored individual had not been enhanced to super human capabilities, he might have been hurt or even killed.

Captain America might certainly be on average more durable than Batman, but I would argue that the gulf in durability between the two is not really noteworthy; Cap is not so much more durable than Batman that the same attacks that barely affected Steve would devastate Bruce.

  • Peak level agility can only take you so far and I suppose I would appeal to your reason on the matter over the grand, high-end feats. I would not go as far as to say that Dick could not tag these opponents in fair fights but I would go as far as to say that excluding moments of PIS/CIS, Dick SHOULD not be able to tag some of the above mentioned individuals.

I would argue that Gambit going toe-to-toe with Daredevil is a high end feat for the cajun as well, given that Daredevil's agility is really second only to Spider-Man's as far as Marvel street levelers go. Dick didn't tag Starfire and SuperBat, he dodged their attacks. In a fight where everyone involved was serious, I agree that tagging them would be absurd.

Especially when Batman, who so far outstrips Dick that Dick cannot lay a finger on him unless Bruce wills it, is only peak human speed.

I don't know, Batman has quite a few eyebrow-raising feats to his credit. Yes, he is only supposed to be peak human speed, but what he is supposed to be and what he is usually portrayed as rarely if ever match up.

Side note, I disagree with how the fight between Batman and Nightwing went in Batman #600. It makes sense to me that Bruce would win, even that he would win without a great deal of difficulty, but Dick not even being able to touch him is nonsense.

  • And when he goes in for a little rough play, X-23 could end up surprising him with several of her lethal assets. X-23 is roughly on par with Wolverine in speed and Wolverine is faster than Gambit. So without getting too into an entirely different debate, logic would dictate that X-23 is about as fast as Gambit, maybe a little faster. That in addition to her exclusively lethal training will make her a handful when pressed. I doubt she would start with her best though due to her newfound desire for humanity though, so I do believe there is a window of opportunity for her opponent to close her down since she will not be utilizing the full extent of her training initially but I also do not think that window is going to last long. Especially if Gambit is losing against his opponent.

She could, yes, but Batman could use that window to freeze her with freezarangs or just unload his electric attacks (which are also available in projectile mode) to slow her down for a while, and if he comes to the realization that her claws are metal, which should not really be hard to figure out, he could do what he did to a recent group of assailants that came at him with sharp pointy objects. Magnetize them so that they stick to a nearby metal surface. X-23 would be stuck to a wall or something by her hands and legs, essentially a sitting duck at that point.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Avatar image for recoil1985
#70 Posted by Recoil1985 (543 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh lordies, it looks like we have ourselves a solid vs event going on here!

Avatar image for imthedamnbatman
#71 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3973 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone want to make any bets on who gives in first? Lol. I just like reading these two's debate, they bring up excellent points.

Avatar image for recoil1985
#72 Posted by Recoil1985 (543 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman: Neither will give in. They're both confident in their choices. It's a matter of how many others they can convince with their argument.

Avatar image for revamp
#73 Posted by ReVamp (23015 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the debate.

Avatar image for lunacyde
#74 Posted by Lunacyde (27781 posts) - - Show Bio
@Recoil1985: I don't know if you realize this n00b but your thread sucks. We hold ourselves to a higher standard around here.
Moderator
Avatar image for imthedamnbatman
#75 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3973 posts) - - Show Bio

@Recoil1985 True dat.

Avatar image for imthedamnbatman
#76 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3973 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lunacyde Woah what's up with the hostility bro?

Avatar image for nefarious
#77 Edited by Nefarious (35642 posts) - - Show Bio

X-23 solos. 
 
I don't see how Batman or Nightwing defeat someone as durable as X-23 down and fast, too.

Avatar image for recoil1985
#78 Posted by Recoil1985 (543 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lunacyde said:

@Recoil1985: I don't know if you realize this n00b but your thread sucks. We hold ourselves to a higher standard around here.

Avatar image for lunacyde
#79 Posted by Lunacyde (27781 posts) - - Show Bio

Haha I'll stop derailing your thread now. 

Moderator
Avatar image for saren
#80 Posted by Saren (27909 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, also, I just finished X-Men Legacy #267 and Moon Knight took regular-morals-Gambit's cards without too much of a problem. Lost some of his costume, which last I checked was not as durable as Batman's, and remarked that it hurt, but he was fine otherwise.

No Caption Provided
Avatar image for morpheus_
#81 Posted by Morpheus_ (34022 posts) - - Show Bio
In retrospect, too bad I banned Edgeworth. I might consider unbanning him in order to brag about the performance of an outdated Iron Man model in that Legacy issue and see him cry about PIS, then ban him again.
Avatar image for saren
#82 Posted by Saren (27909 posts) - - Show Bio

@Morpheus_ said:

In retrospect, too bad I banned Edgeworth. I might consider unbanning him in order to brag about the performance of an outdated Iron Man model in that Legacy issue and see him cry about PIS, then ban him again.

First post scans of Iron Man beating genuine legit actual She-Hulk in her own book, then ban him again.

Avatar image for 80sbaby
#83 Posted by 80sBaby (1361 posts) - - Show Bio

Geez, Gambit really sucks against street-levelers, doesn't he?

Avatar image for morpheus_
#84 Posted by Morpheus_ (34022 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane: LOL. He used a plot device for that, though. But he has one-shotted her in CoC I.
Avatar image for recoil1985
#85 Posted by Recoil1985 (543 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby said:

Geez, Gambit really sucks against street-levelers, doesn't he?

You'll need to elaborate on that one.

Avatar image for 80sbaby
#86 Posted by 80sBaby (1361 posts) - - Show Bio

@Recoil1985: It just seems like, going off his showings against MoonKnight, Cap and Bullseye, Gambit can't seem to put them down or even have a good showing. His "fight" with Daredevil wasnt much to speak of and was more a display of agility. He seems to do better against characters with a much higher durability so he doesn't have to hold back as much.

Avatar image for jeanroygrant
#87 Posted by jeanroygrant (20442 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

Team 1.

Avatar image for lunacyde
#88 Posted by Lunacyde (27781 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
In retrospect, too bad I banned Edgeworth. I might consider unbanning him in order to brag about the performance of an outdated Iron Man model in that Legacy issue and see him cry about PIS, then ban him again.
Outdated? That model has probably been sitting in the back of Tony's closet since the 80s. It runs on MS-DOS.
Moderator
Avatar image for daak1212
#89 Posted by daak1212 (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

Come on guys, Gambit and X-23 are basically fighting two Batmen, on top of that two Batmen who are ridiculously comfortable working as a team, hence why Bruce and Dick take it

haha

Believe it or not X-23 is someone who could contend against Cass in a random encounter so what are you saying?

Avatar image for lunacyde
#90 Posted by Lunacyde (27781 posts) - - Show Bio
@daak1212 said:

@Jayfournines said:

Come on guys, Gambit and X-23 are basically fighting two Batmen, on top of that two Batmen who are ridiculously comfortable working as a team, hence why Bruce and Dick take it

haha

Believe it or not X-23 is someone who could contend against Cass in a random encounter so what are you saying?

She could contend with Cass. Or she could end up face first in the dirt.
Moderator
Avatar image for daak1212
#91 Posted by daak1212 (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@Recoil1985 said:

Oh lordies, it looks like we have ourselves a solid vs event going on here!

Yeah Im a pretty okay X-23 debater but this is something much much more interesting to see.

Avatar image for daak1212
#92 Posted by daak1212 (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lunacyde said:

@daak1212 said:

@Jayfournines said:

Come on guys, Gambit and X-23 are basically fighting two Batmen, on top of that two Batmen who are ridiculously comfortable working as a team, hence why Bruce and Dick take it

haha

Believe it or not X-23 is someone who could contend against Cass in a random encounter so what are you saying?

She could contend with Cass. Or she could end up face first in the dirt.

Thats something that applies to both

Avatar image for fourthdeity
#93 Posted by FourthDeity (2244 posts) - - Show Bio

@daak1212: Lol you're actually right. No one knows much about her. She would easily be a good match for Cassandra.

Avatar image for lunacyde
#94 Posted by Lunacyde (27781 posts) - - Show Bio
@daak1212: Well obviously. 
 
My point is that X-23 is inconsistent at best.
Moderator
Avatar image for mercy_
#95 Posted by Mercy_ (94916 posts) - - Show Bio

@Morpheus_ said:

In retrospect, too bad I banned Edgeworth. I might consider unbanning him in order to brag about the performance of an outdated Iron Man model in that Legacy issue and see him cry about PIS, then ban him again.

How did I not know about him being banned? I would have built you a throne, Morph.

As an aside, I don't know that Laura has the pure speed needed to contend with a serious Cass.

Avatar image for daak1212
#96 Posted by daak1212 (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@FourthDeity: Their was a really good the two on here.

@Lunacyde: I dont really know any inconsistent times with here but I would believe it. Out of curiosity has she done anything note worthy in AA? I know they made it a point to show that she was better than most of the class with an exception to maybe Finesse and that's why I heard their best buds in combat training.

Avatar image for lunacyde
#97 Posted by Lunacyde (27781 posts) - - Show Bio
@daak1212: i honestly wouldn't be the one to ask. My reading of X books is subpar really lol.
Moderator
Avatar image for daak1212
#98 Posted by daak1212 (8404 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mercy_: She does as I think Cass has a slight issue dealing with super speed people such as Cricket. She also had an issue against Ravager and Deathstroke but apparently that was because she couldnt read them but even with her peak human training couldnt stop them from putting in work on her. X-23 even if tagged would just heal. That was a big thing in their battle but it came down to Cass winning because she had Muramasa

Avatar image for erik
#99 Posted by Erik (32502 posts) - - Show Bio

@Recoil1985 said:

Oh lordies, it looks like we have ourselves a solid vs event going on here!

Nope.

@CitizenBane:

You win.

Avatar image for recoil1985
#100 Posted by Recoil1985 (543 posts) - - Show Bio