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#1 Posted by TonyMartial (8840 posts) - - Show Bio
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As pictured, strictly Hand to Hand.

Takes place in generic forest.

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#2 Posted by RBT (27177 posts) - - Show Bio

He can take either in 1v1. Don't know about 2v1. Likely loses.

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#3 Posted by deactivated-5c917f846ef0b (1264 posts) - - Show Bio

May solos, Hunter secures the win

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#4 Posted by katanalauncher (3590 posts) - - Show Bio

I don’t think Batman can take on the best AoS fighter in 1v1, also there’s may too.

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#5 Posted by The_Gaurdian (574 posts) - - Show Bio

Goes the same as him vs. Hawkeye and Black Widow. May's not good enough at all physically to last long and Bruce is similarly skilled. Hunter's a fodder

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#6 Edited by deactivated-5c917f846ef0b (1264 posts) - - Show Bio

I still don't understand what h2h feats Batman has to put him on a tier comparable to Daisy, much less May.

The highly praised 4v1 feat was accomplished with his gauntlets to block the knives and he got tagged at least once in a vital area and maybe another time to the side of his chest. His striking is impressive but May has taken hits from stronger opponents and gotten back up (Noche, Eva, Loreli, Sinara, AIDA). Batman's durability is really good but May's striking is as well, it might take some time but she can wear him down - his durability isn't that good.

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Hunter is just extra, comparable skill but inferior physicals sans speed. He's good enough to be used as a distraction, fast enough to dance around him and he's durable enough to take a few hits at least

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#7 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25830 posts) - - Show Bio

May also beats him solo.

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#8 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11438 posts) - - Show Bio

May solos.

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#9 Edited by The_Magister (13500 posts) - - Show Bio

May solos.

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#10 Posted by RBT (27177 posts) - - Show Bio

@asphaltairborne:

The highly praised 4v1 feat was accomplished with his gauntlets to block the knives

He has got his gauntlets here as well, so I don't see how that's relevant.

and he got tagged at least once in a vital area and maybe another time to the side of his chest.

This only happened after he was successfully able to dodge and parry each of their hits. The fact that fodders kept coming back after getting punched 5ft away does not take anything away from the fact that Bruce was successfully able to block and parry hits from 4 people attacking almost at the same time. That is the part which makes the feat a skill feat.

His striking is impressive but May has taken hits from stronger opponents and gotten back up (Noche, Eva, Loreli, Sinara, AIDA).

Exactly the same can be said for May. Her striking is good, but Batman has taken hits from stronger opponents and gotten back up.

Batman's durability is really good but May's striking is as well, it might take some time but she can wear him down - his durability isn't that good.

Again, exactly the same can be said for May. Her durability is good so it might take a while, but he will wear her down. That's no way to go about an h2h fight. When we can easily compare their striking, strength and durability.

Strength is a no brainer. Bruce is superior. By a decent margin. I think anyone will agree with that.

Striking. Again, closer, but Bruce has this in the bag.

Durability is closest. I don't remember much of what happened in JL, but I remember Bruce being tossed through metal railings and getting back up very quickly.

Skill. Probably closest. I am not sure who is better here. I don't remember May ever taking on 4 opponents while surrounded. I could be forgetting something here though. The closest thing I remember is her taking on 3 primitives at the same time. Or when she took on 3 Hydra guys. But in both cases, they weren't really attacking at the same time. Not like Bruce's opponents were.

Why exactly does May beat Bruce 1v1 with Bruce having so many advantages?

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#11 Posted by HulkBusterx9 (945 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman by far. Much better combat speed, strength, and arguably better fighter IMO.

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#12 Posted by Slade-Prime (1272 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman high diffs, lance is borderline fodder.

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#13 Posted by AngelJax (11597 posts) - - Show Bio

May solos

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#14 Posted by GeorgeWBush (11588 posts) - - Show Bio

May solos with ease

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#15 Edited by The_Magister (13500 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: May's Primitives feat blows away Bruce's four mercs feat though.

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Factors:

  1. Number of times tagged: 0 times for May, 1-2 times for Bruce
  2. Number of opponents: 3 for May, 4 for Bruce
  3. Skill of fodder: Edge to the Primitives via more fleshed out lore, since the Watchdogs were good enough to be the U.S. government's anti-Inhuman task force and there's precedent for them recruiting guys that served in HYDRA, KGB, etc. Plus Radcliffe mentioned that they had weapons handling skills...we don't really know anything about Lex's mercs, other than they're logically competent
  4. Stats of fodder: Primitives are enhanced, mercs are not... May was outclassed in strength/durability, while Bruce had both advantages on his fodder (making raw martial arts skill doubly important for May to utilize efficiently)

And contrary to belief, there is very little (if at all) "simultaneous engagement" going on in Bruce's feat. I know this is what people like to hype up for this feat, but let's take a look... ok so he jumps into the fight. Hits one guy, hits another guy, hits the first guy again, punches two guys, headbutts a guy, blocks two knife slashes. Then finishes them off by engaging the rest 1-2 at a time. There are almost no feats where someone takes on 4 people at exactly the same time, the only true example I can think of is IP Man. Bruce is doing pretty much exactly what other LA fighters do, but people get too caught up in the fact that they're circling him so the illusion of simultaneous engagement persists. 4 at the same time would mean they are all engaging and he's parrying/countering all 4 while they attack. Meaning, if you take a screenshot at the right moment, you will see him blocking/attacking 4 people at exactly the same time, with not even one person left unattended. That's not what's happening here. It's really engagements of 1-2 at a time happening in quick succession.

IP Man does the "4 at a time" thing for the first couple seconds, then it transitions into him taking on 1-2 at a time.

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Anyways... if you oversimplify the feats without taking in quality of fodder and other such factors, you can make them seem comparable. But they're really not. May beats 3 enhanced soldiers without being touched, Bruce beats 4 mercs while being touched a couple of times. Of course, May also has the feat against HYDRA soldiers where she and Daisy barge into a base and clear out a room. She did that coming off of her injury (I'd say she was getting close to her normal level but not quite there, I think DSTREET45's estimate of her being at around 85% is accurate). And again, without being touched.

And that's without going into May's other feats, I'll just use a couple to showcase her superiority here.

She beats on two Remorath at the same time:

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They had enough physical dexterity/speed to move like this, even against Daisy's quake blasts (not true Quake timing IMO, but still super impressive for individuals that are treated as fodder by May):

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Another instance of how mobile and swift they are:

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As far as training/credentials go:

"We Remorath earn our kills. That is how we earn our rank." - Qovas (season 5)

They are assassins whose entire society revolves around respect; respect that's earned from how many kills one has and how they carry it out. As such, they strictly hold to the standard of not using firearms as they consider such methods disgraceful. They consider the ultimate sign of dominance over their opponents to be killing them with their own weapons. When infiltrating the Lighthouse, they killed a few SHIELD agents along the way as they stormed through IIRC, stabbing them with their blades. The info. is all in the second half of season 5.

May not only beat down Remorath, but also pretty much bodied their leader as their fight ended this way:

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This was the guy that rose to the tippy top of that culture by being their best killer. Admittedly he doesn't have proper feats, but he should be significantly better than the fodder Remorath going by his position in their society.

Holistically, I don't see how Bruce compares to May in skill at all. He really only has the one feat that puts him in any sort of discussion here, and it doesn't stack up to the showings of actual elite fighters. And not only that, but May has him beat in statements/hype as well.

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#16 Edited by ANTHP2000 (25830 posts) - - Show Bio

One thing I want to note is that Bruce using the gauntlets to deflect the knives does not equate to him getting tagged. Not even his helmet been tagged (arguably) equates to him getting tagged because of his inability to react. A fighter will fight a certain way when facing a certain situation - when they're fighting knives, they're gonna be more defensive than when they're fighting unarmed opponents. Just like that, Bruce could very well be using evasive techniques if he wasn't equipped to deal with knives etc. and no sell them. A master combatant is aware of what fodder are going to try and use against him and fight accordingly.

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#17 Posted by The_Magister (13500 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: I'd generally agree, but we have no reference point for Bruce fighting in a different manner in a similar situation.

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#18 Posted by RBT (27177 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister:

Agree about numbers and fodder skills.

And contrary to belief, there is very little (if at all) "simultaneous engagement" going on in Bruce's feat. I know this is what people like to hype up for this feat, but let's take a look... ok so he jumps into the fight. Hits one guy, hits another guy, hits the first guy again, punches two guys, headbutts a guy, blocks two knife slashes. Then finishes them off by engaging the rest 1-2 at a time. There are almost no feats where someone takes on 4 people at exactly the same time, the only true example I can think of is IP Man. Bruce is doing pretty much exactly what other LA fighters do, but people get too caught up in the fact that they're circling him so the illusion of simultaneous engagement persists. 4 at the same time would mean they are all engaging and he's parrying/countering all 4 while they attack. Meaning, if you take a screenshot at the right moment, you will see him blocking/attacking 4 people at exactly the same time, with not even one person left unattended. That's not what's happening here. It's really engagements of 1-2 at a time happening in quick succession.

I never said Bruce ever took on 4 guys at exact same time. That's why I said this-

Bruce was successfully able to block and parry hits from 4 people attacking almost at the same time

Almost.

In the very beginning of the fight, three guys rush him at the exact same time and Bruce gets tagged once.

After that, he is completely surrounded by all four. He knocks Asian Merc back and then punches two guys at the same time before they could do anything, punches the last fodder and then headbutts another fodder who had recovered from the punch by them. All of this happens in less than 2 seconds. He fended off 4 fodders while surrounded and managed not to get tagged in less than 2 seconds.

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Then again, he dodges a swing from one fodder while knocking back Asian Merc, parries two hits at the same time and another hit that followed almost instantly and then punches another fodder in the face. All of these happen in extremely quick succession. I don't remember May ever being in a similar situation.

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So yes, he didn't ever take on 4 guys at the exact same time, it's certainly better than May's Primitive feat or the Hydra feat. Her opponents never pushed her at the same time or as quickly as Bruce's opponents were.

I don't know why you are bringing up Remoraths. Yes, they were certainly better fodders than the mercs Bruce faced, but it's not like May took on multiple Remortaths at the same time.

Holistically, I don't see how Bruce compares to May in skill at all. He really only has the one feat that puts him in any sort of discussion here, and it doesn't stack up to the showings of actual elite fighters. And not only that, but May has him beat in statements/hype as well.

As I said, I don't know who is more skilled. May has the advantage of fighting actual named opponents, but as far as fodder feats go, Bruce's skill showing is better, IMO.

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#19 Edited by The_Magister (13500 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: I think at the end of the day, most of the showings people point to are really "quick succession" showings rather than "simultaneous" showings. Which was my point, Bruce is really taking on a couple at a time in quick succession rather than 4 at the same time. Which I think you agree with, given your breakdown. So if that's the case, I don't think there's much difference between Bruce's feats and most LA feats. I just think most feats people talk about are like this, so there's not really a need to differentiate them based on engagement style.

If you go purely by quickness of how the scene rolls by, May has feats of dispatching fodder in much quicker succession, after being tortured:

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Stabs a guy, stabs another guy, takes control of an enemy's sidearm and uses it to shoot another guy, kicks a guy away, then take down the guy she has a hold on to finish him off. But is this a better feat than her Primitives one, just because the fight moved quicker visually? Obviously not. Oh, and also worth noting that unlike Bruce:

  • She had two guns in the mix to deal with
  • She had just been tortured and stabbed in the shoulder
  • She was not touched once (No body armor, aka zero room for error)

You tell me, who cleared their fodder better and quicker, since that seems to be a focus of yours here? Bruce or May?

Plus May's Primitives showing is still a lot better as a fodder feat than Bruce's feat given the nature of the fodder, despite her taking on 3 instead of 4. It's a much more dangerous situation, IMO. Because all things considered, these feats don't exist in a vacuum. If they were fighting similar fodder, I might give Bruce more benefit of the doubt against May. Like... many of Matt's scenes against the Hand involve a couple of ninjas outright waiting in the background while their buddies get destroyed and then jump in afterwards.

Like, look at this:

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What are these ninjas doing?

But the reason Matt and May's feats are better is just due to the quality of the fodder they face, and their ability to go untouched against them. Which is extremely important IMO, much more important than the stuff you're pointing out. I don't think there's really a need to differentiate the engagement style on the level people do with Bruce's feat to make it look more impressive than it actually is. Again... Bruce's feat only holds up if you completely ignore the quality of fodder that May faced. And that is not how feats work.

I was mainly bringing up the Remorath to highlight the fact that May has showings against skilled & physically capable enemies that Bruce doesn't, even beating up 2 at once.

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#20 Posted by Amcu (16248 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Didn't May handle a few Hydra dudes at once who where individually better than Hunter? I feel like that should be way better than anything Bruce has ever done.

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#21 Edited by The_Magister (13500 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: It's one of those scalings where it's logically implied but not 100% resolute. So while it's something I keep in mind, it's not a go-to feat for debating.

Ward said that his HYDRA was stronger, tougher, better, more efficient than the previous generation of HYDRA and it was also stated that they singlehandedly sent the other cells into hiding or broke them into submission. One of those guys was beating Hunter's ass, and May cleaned house on them before mocking them as they lay hurt on the ground.

It's pretty insane when you actually break it down, but the scaling isn't airtight - more implied. Regardless, I don't get how Bruce's feat is at all comparable to May's Primitives feat. It only really holds up if you completely ignore the fact that May's fodder are massively better in stats and implied skill.

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#22 Posted by TonyMartial (8840 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu:

The guy hunter had the fight of his life with was drunk to be fair.

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#23 Posted by Amcu (16248 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu:

The guy hunter had the fight of his life with was drunk to be fair.

Was Hunter drunk too?

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#24 Posted by Amcu (16248 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Is there any problem with the scaling? I've thought for a while that May was miles above Hunter skill wise and this feat is the primary reason that I hold May in such high regard skill wise TBH. I thought that this was her best feat.

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#25 Posted by wacko_from_waco (235 posts) - - Show Bio

May solos, IMHO. I would say Bruce was exhausted after his fight with Superman, however, this is really his only fighting feat he has.

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#26 Posted by Amcu (16248 posts) - - Show Bio

There is something seriously wrong with CV right now.

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#27 Edited by The_Magister (13500 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: I guess there's not really a problem with the scaling if I think about it, TBH.

Interestingly, Kebo reported to Ward about Hunter "He's a tough bastard." In line with how he took a bunch of punishment and used brass knuckles to win. Kebo didn't really comment on his skill or talent or anything like that. I don't think by the standards of Ward, he was anything special as a fighter for the HYDRA faction. It's also consistent with how these guys gave Coulson significantly more trouble than regular HYDRA guys ever did; I think one of them almost had him dead to rights in hand to hand combat.

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Ward's HYDRA guys are pretty consistent in implied threat level now that I think about it, and May sliced through them like cake.

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#28 Posted by TonyMartial (8840 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Dont think he was actually

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#29 Posted by Amcu (16248 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Yeah its really insane when you think about it. Its the primary reason I hold May as being above fighters like Cap, Bucky and T'Challa(though she may have a couple other feats to place her above them as well).

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#30 Edited by ANTHP2000 (25830 posts) - - Show Bio

I still don't think the 3 guys in the underground club were as good as Spud, Spud was basically the finest down there. Granted he dominated Hunter on every department, from endurance to strength and skill, but you get my point. Obviously Hunter's feats just speak of the level the Specialists like May operate on, given he's practically cannon fodder to them, but it's not scaling I agree with in his occasion.

Now, these other 3 guys she beat up when they were guarding Von Strucker, those were absolutely Hunter+++ level, they'd have to go through Hunter, through Spud and through litteraly everyone else in the organisation to secure the rightful Head of HYDRA next to Ward's right hand man. Also evident by their choreography (something elite AoS fodder consistently have in spades). They were much better than anyone else and May treated them like fodder.

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#31 Posted by Amcu (16248 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Dont think he was actually

That would add another level of impressiveness to him beating Hunter.

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#32 Edited by The_Magister (13500 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:

@the_magister: Yeah its really insane when you think about it. Its the primary reason I hold May as being above fighters like Cap, Bucky and T'Challa(though she may have a couple other feats to place her above them as well).

I'd say the top ones are:

  1. Feat of matching Bobbi's skill (though Bobbi has a stats edge)
  2. Feats against Ward's HYDRA faction
  3. Feat against Primitives
  4. Feats against Kree while injured (including Sinara)
  5. Feat of having a skill edge on Ward
  6. Feat of casually stomping S2 Skye (context being the Alisha clones feat)
  7. Feats against Remorath

I really think you need only any 1 of these to prove she's way better than Bruce. As for the supersoldiers, I think these are above them too.

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#33 Posted by The_Magister (13500 posts) - - Show Bio

Obviously Hunter's feats just speak of the level the Specialists like May operate on, given he's practically cannon fodder to them,

Corroborated by the fact that Tomas said Bobbi "could've kicked his candy ass anytime she wanted."

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#34 Posted by Amcu (16248 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: I think her fodderizing Skye is maybe better than most of the others, but for the most part I agree.

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#35 Edited by The_Magister (13500 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: TBH I wasn't really ordering them, just listing

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#36 Posted by Lord_Doom159 (322 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty sure Bats can beat May their skills are close and he has a massive stat advantage.

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#37 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25830 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000 said:

Obviously Hunter's feats just speak of the level the Specialists like May operate on, given he's practically cannon fodder to them,

Corroborated by the fact that Tomas said Bobbi "could've kicked his candy ass anytime she wanted."

Inb4 KOL "That's a PIS statement"

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#38 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25830 posts) - - Show Bio

Also fodder feats are still overrated.

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#39 Posted by JSDoctor (1495 posts) - - Show Bio

AoS take this - May alone likely solos. She has better skill IMO, and whilst Bruce has a stat edge, hers are more than good enough to contend. The skill gap is probably bigger than the stat gap here. Adding in Hunter just solidifies the win - he can at least run some interference.

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#40 Posted by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman could win, Hunter is trash and May can't carry.

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#41 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3426 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce dies.

May alone is a fight. Adding in Hunter secures the team a win.