Base Zeref vs Yonko Blackbeard

@comicvinepoozer1:

We’re running in circles here so I guess we’ll do this one step at a time so everything is clear.

Sue, be my guest.

Why would Gravity stop him from teleporting??

Because he will be way too unstable to do anything. We talking about a blackhole here.

@comicvinepoozer1:

He wouldn’t be too unstable tho. It’s not an actual black hole. A black hole would‘ve vaporized whatever went into it.

He would be. infinty gravity, crushes with inifity force, and not even light can escape, that sounds like a blackhole to me. Blackhole don't just vaporize stuff, time is also involved there.

You can make the case that the marines didn’t die due to it being a Shonen. But some of them didn’t even get KO’d while inside it. And the houses weren’t vaporized either, just broken up

I said they didn't brutally cuz it shonen cuz it looks like that what u want to see. then show them Lol, we haven't seen the inside of the blackhole Lol. And Blackhole don't just vaporize instantly.

@exauce: Why were they still conscious

@ssjbatdan: I don't get what your point is...

Shit like this happens in every anime, unless you think Aldoron not getting burned by Natsu's flames is logical.

And i guess Hashirama's wood style should also be useless.

But no, let's only focus on One Piece right ?

And about the gun thing, DBS Goku literally got hit by a bullet and was visibly "hurt", so i guess he suddenly isn't a planet buster anymore, right ?

Also, "Blackbeard thinks handguns are useful", yeah, no, i don't know why people like to bring this up, but guns haven't been useful since the East Blue saga in One Piece. Guns in One Piece are mostly for show or only useful for fodders, it's still a pirate manga afterall.

Same thing for the cannonball thing, when have canonballs ever been relevant in One Piece ? And yes, obviously pirate ships are gonna be equipped with cannons.

You answered your own question, Oda doesn't care about science, no artist does.

Well, we're not talking about Hashirama, are we? Could Hashirama's wood dragon survive a country-level attack?

According to Naruto fans, yes he can.

Goku when fully suppressed can be stung by bullets. I don't see how this applies at all.

If he's as powerful as everyone makes him out to be on here, he shouldn't be stung by them.

I was being facetious about the guns, I already said.

Cept the Marines still use them. Why are most pirate ships so shitty?

They use them, but when have they ever been useful ?

That's not true. Some artists care. Most care more than Oda does. He don't give a damn. Which is fine. But then fans go and try to upscale feats with calcs when clearly they should just take the feat for what it is.

That's literally what every fanbase does tho...

Without calcs, powerscaling would be even more extreme.

@animebattles12:

That seems far-fetched to me, but his wood-dragon is faaaaar thicker than the ship, at least. And it has regenerative properties. And sage chakra.

It may seem farfetched, but that's the general consensus here on CV, it also wouldn't matter how thick his wood is, fire would eventually be able to burn through it.

Adam Wood in One Piece also has special properties, we just don't know exactly what they are. We just know that it is rare and it's the same type of wood that the Pirate king used.

No, that's not true. Goku, with minimal ki, is only bullet level. Always has been, always will be. He guards with ki to block insane attacks.

Then why does everyone on CV make such a big deal out of bullets being used in One Piece ? If even Goku can be harmed by them without ki ?

Didn't they use a bunch of canons on Whitebeard?

They did, the fodders atleast, and it barely did any damage, the only time they were able to tag/hurt him with it was when he was on the verge of death and suffering from heart attacks.

No. Without calcs you'd have Whitebeard's feat at island level. With calcs you get country level. Big difference.

Without calcs, we would have to go by visuals and statements, which would put WB way above island level.

@ssjbatdan: Also, the reason why i used the Hashirama example, is because you seem to only focus on One Piece not making sense, while literally every anime has things like this that wouldn't be logical.

@ssjbatdan: blackbeard using a gun was for plot reasons. dont think to deeply into it. he wanted to kill wb fast so he used a gun. bb isnt deathstroke or deadshot, oda isnt going to write a in-depth reason as to why he uses a gun or if hes good at it

@animebattles12: Why would surviving fire make it country level, though? Also, it still has regenerative properties.

Idk, ask the Naruto fans lol.

Fair enough on the Adam Wood point. I just don't understand why Blackbeard wouldn't be using it or something similar. And I'm pretty sure Merry already survived that burst....

That's a fair point, but we don't know if he uses it or not, iirc, we haven't even seen his ship yet, also, Adam Wood is very hard to come by, as it's only available on the black market.

Well, for one, Goku ain't One Piece, and he works far differently. Two, because people argue that Whitebeard has country durability.

Yeah, he was suffering from a heart attack, but bullets shouldn't have affected him since he can just tank supposed island-country level attacks. At least, that's the argument. But again, I said I was being facetious here with the guns. I actually think it was a good scene. I question some of the logistics, but I can just chalk it up to a man being at his limits...though some of it is quite weird. It's hard to see him trading blows with Akainu while at the same time being shot by old-time guns if Akainu is supposed to be as strong as they say. That'd be like Iron Man taking hits from the Hulk while a peashooter starts denting his armor.

1) How does Goku work differently ? There's also Haki in One Piece which allows someone to have far greater durability, it's kinda like Ki.

2) He was able to trade blows with Akainu because of his devil fruit abilities which he used to counter Akainu's magma, but a direct hit from Akainu was able to burn his body tho.

I actually don't think old, sick WB had country level durability, cause he was weakened and he couldn't even use Haki properly anymore.

But durability in Anime is also weird, cause piercing attacks and blunt attacks work differently at times. Which is why WB for example was able to tank some of Akainu's punches, but bullets and swords were able to pierce him.

Why? His best actual feat is flooding an island and busting a mountain, isn't it? Causing earthquakes doesn't actually scale to AP the way busting a mountain does. It can be seen for just what it is.

To know the amount of force that's required to create Tsunamis, split the sky or cause tremors miles away, you would need to calculate it, no ?

So, how would you know how strong it was without calcs ? If i just see someone creating a Tsunami out of nowhere or split the sky, i would probably think that man has the power to destroy the world lol.

Because One Piece does it to a frustrating degree. It seems like everything has to be calc-scaled based on flips and hoops.

For me, it's like...Piccolo vaped a moon on screen, so when Vegeta claims he can bust a planet and Goku is like, "Oh shit, he can," I'm like, "Yeah, Vegeta can bust a planet. Seems legit." And that's the level of upscaling I'm comfortable with.

@lilyeezywest: I wish I could remember the Skypia circumstances, too.

I was wondering if that was possible. I don't get how you could do that, though. I thought Haki increased your senses, attack, or durability. How does it affect a gun?

I get that, but it's also frustrating that people don't always accept feats or statements in One Piece, which is why we use alot of calcs.

For example, Luffy was seen dodging lightning back in Skypiea, which was an actual on screen feat, and 1 arc later we had Kalifa doing the same thing, yet, some people still don't wanna accept that.

Kizaru was mentioned as being lightspeed, but there are still people who don't wanna accept it.

Whitebeard was stated to have the power to destroy the world, Chinjao busted an ice continent, Garp casually destroyed mountains during his training. All of those are actual statements or on screen showings, but not everyone wants to accept it, so that's probably why alot of fans use scaling or calcs.

For me it's also like you describe it, when something happens or is mentioned on-screen, i accept it, but on CV it's different and everything has to be explained or proved.

@animebattles12 said:

Yeah, that seems strange. The only thing I can think is that One Piece didn't have clear hypersonic+ feats before that for Luffy, maybe? I dunno. Nami's lightning is kind of questionable, but since it came after Enel's, it seems legit that it's supposed to be around real lightning bolt speed. Now, where Nami got that speed...eh, that's strange, since she isn't really much of a physical fighter. But Kalifa should definitely be at that level.

Nami creates her lightning through her clima-tact which is a weapon/device that can produce clouds and control weather, so that's how she create slightning. So, yes, it was actual, real lightning.

The only thing that seems contradictory to me about that time is that hitting the ground 10 times in a second is how they activate their speed...and Sanji, who's fast, was kicking 12 times in a second. Ehhhh, this doesn't seem quite suspect.

I think hitting the ground 10 times in an instant, is just the base technique, but you can develop it to be much faster, that's why the higher ranked CP9 members were faster than the lower ranked members, they used the same technique, but it was probably more developed/advanced.

Yeah, well, imagine how Bleach fans feel...being calling all lightning timers and hill level...heh.

Yeah, i know, but i think most people aren't being serious when saying that...I hope lol.

I question that statement by Whitebeard. It did seem like clear in the moment hyperbole. I mean, he only flooded an island to get that reaction. If anything, it means he could have done it over time. There's no hard evidence to suggest otherwise.

The thing is, Sengoku knew Whitebeard from when he was way younger, so to me it seemed like he warned them about what he is usually capable of and based on his devil fruit and how destructive it can be, either way, we won't really know until they reveal how strong prime Whitebeard was.

I think ice is a lot easier to break than rock, but it'd certainly be something up there. Casually destroying mountains is irrefutable. Who the hell does that?

That's a good question, but believe me, some people just love to downplay everything lol.

@animebattles12: That seems really strange. We don't even know how that wood works. It's just wood, and without other kindling, wood is actually a bit hard to catch on fire. With that much fire, sure, but again, it's Hashirama's chakra we're talking about. What did they do, calc how many joules such a fire would be giving off? That's not how burning works, though. I'm guessing this has a lot to do with scaling to Madara's Susano'o, so it's really just supporting evidence.

I think it was because his wood tanked a Bijuu bomb or something, but i don't really remember.

So the Blackbeard ship and crew that got hit by the knock-up stream were just in a dinky boat for whatever reason? Or am I mistaking Blackbeard's crew for someone else's? BTW, you think Blackbeard couldn't get his hands dirty in the black market? You don't need to answer that. I'm guessing Blackbeard's normal ship must have it. If now, well, whatever.

Yes that was Blackbeard, but that was only his first "ship", iirc, it got destroyed by the knock up stream, his current crew would be too big to fit on that, so he probably has a proper ship now lol.

Does everyone really bring up bullets in One Piece? Ki is more used to block attacks than raise your durability. Characters would rather increase their speed to grab bullets out of the air rather than tank them. Though they can tank them, I think it would cost more ki. If you can get through someone's guard in DB, even if you are quite a bit weaker, you can cause damage. Haki seems like something you activate to harden your body where ki is more about canceling's out your opponent/danger. It's an energy barrier. Overall, ki is quite similar to Haki as a whole, with ki being all-purpose. However, a big difference would be that you can gather your ki into your aura, but it can waste energy, or leak out. In DBS Goku and Vegeta learn to contain it at high levels so it doesn't, though. In DB, you have energy stored in your body, and some is considered "latent." That latent energy is what powers the Kamehameha Wave and similar attacks. Techniques like that are sort of like turning your whole strength into AP in a focused point. Like, even your lifting strength, all of it. At least, that's how I think of it. The "latent" part is how it is directly described, though.

I thought you were going to bring it up when you mentioned the handgun thing lol. Yes, Haki can also be used to block attacks, it's basically an ability that allows you to predict attacks, see the future, harden your body or weapon ( creating an invisible armor, kinda like ki ), knock people out with your willpower/presence, use it as a force to deal more damage, deal internal damage and even create an invisible "blast" ( kinda like a force push ) etc...

See, if Akainu could do THAT to an island when he got a direct hit on Whitebeard, why didn't just burst magma out and incinerate the guy? He can do things like create magma pools.

He did, he was able to hit Whitebeard 2 times and vaporize his organs, the reason why he wasn't able to fully incinerate Whitebeard was because, well....It's still Whitebeard lol, the dude knew how to fight and he used his quakes to counter Akainu's Magma.

That seems like strange logic to me. I'm guessing when he managed to tank Akainu's punches his Haki was working properly?

Possibly, as Whitebeard was fighting more seriously during that moment, and he only tanked it with his arms, when it hit his face, half of it got vaporized.

But you can't really apply those things to someone's AP in a battle. On top of it not being like a direct attack, they are doing it through special means. It would be like trying to apply when a DB character powers up and creates a crater to their AP.

Wait, i'm confused on this one, which sentence are you answering to ? Was it the thing i said about Whitebeard's devil fruit abilities ? ( Sorry, just so much text which can get confusing lol )

I don't think creating a tsunami "out of nowhere" is anywhere near close enough to destroy a world. Nappa can actually casually obliterate a country with sheer ki. Comparing that to something that flooded an island seems strange to me. People claim he did that fairly casually, too. If that's the case, why didn't he just punch Akainu with country-level force? If Akainu were country-level, he wouldn't have needed all that help and cheap shots. Plus, if you're saying it is country-level and putting it into a punch, that is so incredibly focused...it should have tore Akainu's hands apart. Now, I get you say you think Whitebeards punches were "casual" against Akainu, but why would he do that when his life was on the line?

The reason why Akainu didn't get torn apart, is simply cause he's also just that strong, the only version of Whitebeard who would be comfortably above Admiral level, was Prime Whitebeard.

Also, WB didn't flood the island, Aokiji froze all of it before it could reach Marineford.

Anyway, it's known that WB was holding back because of his crew and because he wanted to save Ace and not destroy the island, but we saw that when he was serious ( after Ace died ), he was able to split and almost destroy the entire island just from hitting Akainu ( the final punch ), that probably still wasn't his ful power, cause his crew was still on the island and he intended to destroy it after they got to safety.

Akoiji is another interesting one, because I don't see how freezing water scales to AP in any way. The volume doesn't really matter, either, especially when he can just do it. I mean, you freeze someone, you freeze someone...sure, the temperature matters, but that doesn't really matter to the range of the attack. How is it at all island or country-level when those things refer to either the DC or AP? Having country-level range on something that freezes a field is far different than destroying the field.

Well yes, freezing the ocean in an instant is mostly an AOE/speed feat, so it doesn't really scale to his AP, it does however tell you how strong his ice is and how fast he can freeze someone or something, so anyone who isn't resistant to it, would get frozen in an instant.

How strong were these things? He created an earthquake, yes, but shaking the earth acts far differently punching the air. I'd scale his punches off his mountain feat. If he had mountain DC, then were his punches really that focused? How didn't he destroy his own ship when fighting on it? Or, if he can control the DC, then it again goes towards by focused argument, and I don't get why he didn't just kill Akainu. I think it's more like that Whitebeard was large island level, since that's what those mountain punches could scale too, too. And Akoiji and Akainu were about half-island level. Everything fits together much better that way. Country-level is a high-ball fan calc using way too many variables.

The thing is, weaker characters than the Admirals already have island level feats, so putting the Admirals at that level just wouldn't make sense

We only know that the result of Aokiji and Akainu's fight caused 2 halfs of an island to be changed permanently, but we don't really know how they did it, if they did it casually or not etc...So, using that to determine their how strong they are, just wouldn't be right.

@animebattles12:

Yeah, I guess it depends what an "instant" means. Really fast is very vague. It just does it. Whatever. I still can see why people hesitate to say Nami is a lightning-timer...like, where did that come from? Was she secretly training dodging her own lightning bolts? That woulda been a pretty cool reveal, actually...

Oh no, Nami probably wasn't a lightning timer yet at that point, i was talking about Kalifa, she dodged Nami's lightning and she was the weakest CP9 member.

The reason why Nami was able to beat her was mostly because of the tricks she used and because she was smarter, she also used Kalifa's weaknesses/arrogance against her.

So, Whitebeard destroyed the world in the past? Seems strange to me.

Probably not, but he must have done something crazy during his prime, which we won't know until it's revealed, either that or Sengoku just assumed what it could do since he knows how destructive the power is.

You don't always need to destroy something in order to know how powerful it is.

@animebattles12: What were the feats by weaker people than the admirals that were island level? Guess they could be large island, but that's often where they get placed anyhow, right?

@animebattles12: Yeah, I just read that part. The little Nami was cute.

Coulda sworn someone claimed Nami was a lightning timer because of that fight, once. Not you.

Well, until anything is confirmed, I think it was hyperbole/over the time thing at best. I mean, why wouldn't he warn them beforehand anyhow...

Maybe he just remembered after seeing Whitebeards power again ? Idk, there are alot of assumptions to be made around that statement lol.

Could be because Sengoku had leverage through Ace, he probably knew that Whitebeard wouldn't unleash his full power if Ace was still captured.

But yeah, it was most likely a hyperbole, but i wouldn't be surprised if WB actually had that amount of power in his prime tho lol.

Even if in his prime he caused an earthquake that shook the whole world... Well, I guess if he could keep stacking that up. But you'd think such a thing would be a legend and mentioned by now. Like, everyone would remember the day the whole earth shook.

Well, the entire world was pretty scared before the battle, making comments such as "what's gonna happen to this world" and people who weren't even close to the location of the war, were scared that they somehow wouldn't survive it. And then there's all the comments about him being a monster etc...

@animebattles12: Ace's feat was what exactly? And Ace was kinda admiral level in his own right. Didn't he die saving Luffy? Before that, he was holding his own. He wasn't far behind, that's for sure.

Ace wasn't close to that level at all tho. I mean, sure, he could hold his own against a casual Aokiji for a moment, cause of his devil fruit advantage. But when he clashed against Akainu, he didn't even last 2 seconds. Ace was pretty much a rookie with alot of raw power, but he didn't have the skills or the experience to go up against Admiral level characters.

Ice is way easier to break than bedrock. It's not even "melded" into the mantle like bedrock would be. I'm not sure how you'd scale an unknown country size of ice down and be certain it was large island or even island.

It was stated to be an ice "continent", you are right that we don't exactly know how big it was, but we do know that flamethrowers or steel tools didn't have any effect on it.

If sick Whitebeard was in Admiral ranges, doesn't that mean he'd be in island ranges, too? Small country, maybe, but that's if you can even prove the Admirals are large island. It seems like ranges and maybe mine were lowballs, but large country would seem to be a highball for Whitebeard, especially based on what you said about his comfortability.

At that time, yes, but like i said, that was before the timeskip happened and alot of characters got new feats.

@animebattles12: Oh, and maybe the Admirals will just get left behind? There's no real evidence they've grown such, yeah?

I don't think so. The Admirals are most likely gonna be endgame opponents. And it would surprise me if they didn't get stronger, i mean, being a marine would require them to train and hone their skills, especially Akainu who has become the new fleet Admiral.

Unless you can make an argument that they don't need to train anymore cause they already have a high position, but we won't know until they get new feats and a proper fight again.

The only Admiral who probably doesn't train is Kizaru, since his ability currently makes him pretty much untouchable lol.

@animebattles12: Well, the entire world was pretty scared before the battle, making comments such as "what's gonna happen to this world" and people who weren't even close to the location of the war, were scared that they somehow wouldn't survive it. And then there's all the comments about him being a monster etc...

That still seems like hyperbole. Seems more like they're referring to their way of life, not the end of the world.

You are probably right, but it does show you that alot of people were afraid of him and knew how strong he was, so he must have done something crazy.

It was stated to be an ice "continent", you are right that we don't exactly know how big it was, but we do know that flamethrowers or steel tools didn't have any effect on it.

Hmmm, yeah, it's nonsense ice. But that doesn't matter to its durability. Could just mean it doesn't melt. I know they were trying to chip away at it too, though. How far under the water did it go, though? That's a huge factor.

It doesn't really show, all it shows is that it was a huge landmass of ice. There's also a scan.

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At that time, yes, but like i said, that was before the timeskip happened and alot of characters got new feats.

But it still could mean that sick Whitebeard was perhaps large island to small country.

Ace could still be small island

Admirals island

It's pretty subjective

I think large country is really pushing it for a sick Whitebeard, though.

Ace being small island is probably accurate, but i do think the Admirals and Whitebeard are way above that level tho.

Sick Whitebeard being solid country level seems a safe bet to me, and the Admirals should be around the same tier. We'll know once they get feats in the manga.

They could have leveled off. I mean, at least Akainu and Akoiji had their powers for like 30 years now. Unless Akainu can make a volcano now...I guess that'd be pretty logical. Not sure how he'd utilize it in a brawl, but hey, Oda's creative.

@animebattles12: He destroyed all that ice? It doesn't look very deep, though. I don't know how deep destruction has to go to be truly considered island level or country, though.

Do some people claim sick Whitebeard is multi-continental, or is that just an estimated claim for Prime?