Bartholomew Kuma (One Piece) vs Estarossa (SDS)

vs

Another thread got me thinking about this fight.

Both have a somewhat similar ability, and both are high tiers in their respective verses, so I think this is an interesting matchup.

Pre lobotomy Kuma.

One Piece:

@dratini1331@darrellacoustic@homicidalmaniac@pierpat@funsiized@princearagorn1@cooldes@jmarshmallow@ghostravage@nighthunder@lowlaville@redbird3rdboywonder@cjdavis103@ssj_god@rexorr@pacpanda@jacthripper@stormking1221@garrettmana@terrortuga@darthsenju@cor_tsar@full123@cgoodness:@leo-343@just_banter@agentsandman@darthsenju@jiraiya_sageofoil@spidey_jackson@cull_obsidian@marczaddy@youngkaiser@onepieceverse@jaycool2@heirtothe

Seven Deadly Sins:

@nelomaxwell@passingthrough545@nerdchore@emperorthanos@koays@lejon@jiraiya_sageofoil@darth_wayne@sirfizzwhizz@kotetsu454@kingcrimson@deathhero61@just_ba

umm.. estarossa stomps

if you consider bfr as a win condition, then kuma might have a chance, but even if he can bfr, that will not harm estarossa in any way .... and the physical gap is big.

Estarossa stomps unless BFR is allowed. Even then, he would have to tag him first

Estarossa arrogantly lets Kuma attack him only to be BFRd.

Mismatch. Esta blitzes and one shots

Kuma bfr

@passingthroughv2: @deathhero61: @valor_175: Reasons for Estarossa stomping?

Estarossa

Estarossa wins.

Estarossa

Esta stomps

@god_vulcan: What are his feats exactly that put him so far above Kuma? I'm about halfway through SDS (just completed the Kingdom Infiltration arc) and I haven't found anything to support this much difference in stats. Genuinely curious about this.

Estarossa hasn't made an appearance yet in that arc. SDS verse doesn't get a massive power boosts until the 10 commandments show up so just wait.

As for your question, I disagree with the notion that he's "so far above Kuma" or that he stomps. Estarossa doesn't have any speed feats aside from being generally FTE, and you can't scale him to Escanor because Escanor had no speed feats either at that time. Kuma could casually BFR but Escanor's commandment would just as easily put him down. Physical attacks from Kuma would be completely useless though, including Ursus shock. Estarossa has good regen and can reflect anything h2h related with full counter.

Overall it's a pretty good match. Don't be discouraged by the colossal amounts of wank and highball coming from the SDS fanbase. It's currently the most overrated manga on Shonen Jump

@god_vulcan: I see. Thanks for the analysis.

@god_vulcan: Would Estarossa's commandment work on a cyborg like Kuma?

No problem

Yes. It's a conceptual kind of hax. Anyone that bears animosity or hatred in their heart in Estarossa's presence gets theirs powers nullified, and loses the capability to inflict damage or even move.

Basically you can't have a shred of killing intent or anything of the like. Escanor was able to bypass it due to his arrogance; he saw Estarossa as an insignificant bug he could crush anytime (and he did just that).

@god_vulcan: So practically anybody who wants to fight him seriously suffers an insta loss unless some very specific PIS is involved? That's some ridiculous hax.

@god_vulcan:

As for your question, I disagree with the notion that he's "so far above Kuma" or that he stomps.

Multi-Mountain level physicals >>> Kuma.

Estarossa doesn't have any speed feats aside from being generally FTE, and you can't scale him to Escanor because Escanor had no speed feats either at that time.

Nope, you scale him to post druid amp Meliodas whom he got in front of faster than he could see(when he blocked the revenge counter), which puts him at lightning++ speed.

Kuma could casually BFR but Escanor's commandment would just as easily put him down.

Estarossa could one-shot him casually and can simply dodge Kuma's attacks.

Physical attacks from Kuma would be completely useless though, including Ursus shock. Estarossa has good regen and can reflect anything h2h related with full counter.

True.

Overall it's a pretty good match. Don't be discouraged by the colossal amounts of wank and highball coming from the SDS fanbase. It's currently the most overrated manga on Shonen Jump

Lol no.

Simple scaling puts Estarossa at Multi-Mountain level striking, allowing him to one-shot Kuma, who also has no counter for his Commandment or Full counter.

SDS is hardly overrated, especially in comparison to the likes of Naruto.

Overall, Estarossa stomps.

Exactly, and it's really broken. You can read this part to gain a better understanding:

That being said, there are quite a lot of arrogant characters in fiction, so some people would be naturally resistant. Other than that you just restrict it when you make threads with him

@god_vulcan:

Estarossa doesn't have a single feat that places him at multi-mountain lvl. Not a single one.

Hurting an Escanor > the one that no-sold Galans Mountain+ level attack?

Being >> Galan who easily overpowered Lostvayne Meliodas(Albion Arc)?

Meliodas was half dead.

And yet all the other Commandments failed to blitz him, it clearly didn't affect his reaction time.

And unless you've forgotten, Estarossa's commandment was already in play, which is why his movement was restricted (it has those effects).

Proof Estarossa's commandment was already in play and that it effects reaction time?

In other words, Meli was completely immobilized at the time Estarossa intercepted him, so not a speed feat at all.

Then how was he swinging his sword? Also, that doesn't explain Estarossa being faster than Mel could react to, unless you think Charity also effected that?

No it doesn't. Escanor isn't multi-mountain lvl in striking; he might be multi-mountain in general but certainly not by striking feats.

Scaling puts him there. Galan could dish out Mountain+ attacks and he was fodder to Estarossa.

Hell, even Albion arc Meliodas was atleast City Level(chopped Albion's arm to pieces, despite his City Block level power previously being unable to even make a cut).

He's not oneshotting anyone or anything by feats.

Yes he is. Kuma was hurt by an injured pre-skip Zoro, who has no feats suggesting even City level power, Estarossa is bare minimum at Mountain level physicals.

But by scaling he should win the match, which I already stated.

Obviously.

I view myself as one of the largest SDS debaters on this site and I can say with confidence they're overrated

Hardly. Most people have the top-god tiers as far above lightning speed and Multi-Mountain level, which is true.

... they haven't had any speed feats since Galan and it's all been scaling from there, stacking scaling upon other scaling.

True, but that means all the top tiers are casually Lightning++ considering even BoS Meliodas could easily react to lightning.

To put it into perspective, any person who thinks SDS characters are over island lvl is a wanker. That's the simple truth

Agreed on this one. No one in SDS has showcased anything to put them over Multi-Mountain to(at very best) Island level, which is still above everything shown in One Piece.

@hittheassasin:

Yes he is. Kuma was hurt by an injured pre-skip Zoro, who has no feats suggesting even City level power, Estarossa is bare minimum at Mountain level physicals

Kuma wasn't hurt, Zoro just managed to cut his clothing, he didn't no any damage to Kuma's actual body.

clear blood and sparks suggest Kuma was hurt.

Also, when you gonna respond to our CaV?

@hittheassasin:

Will start working after exams get over this Saturday. Most likely by next Monday.

@hittheassasin: that's just the anime, no blood in the manga.

http://www.readmangaonline.org/manga/one-piece/485/20

Then kuma explains that he's harder than steel so zoro stops trying to fight him and begs for luffys life.

He doesn't really have blood

@hittheassasin: What skrskr said, Oda even shows a close up and we see that Kuma's real body isn't damaged at all. In the same page Zoro implies that he can't cut Kuma.

@shirso: fair enough, still doesn't change the fact that Kuma has no feats to suggest he can take even one serious attack from Estarossa.

Also, when ya gonna respond to the CaV?

@hittheassasin: Did you miss the tag?

I will start working this Saturday when exams get over. Post will likely be up by Monday.

@god_vulcan: Estarossa never hurt him with a cutting attack. He managed to Full Counter Escanor's own swings back at him, which would obviously hurt Escanor due to being more than double the power.

He also punched him, causing him to spit blood.

And he only gave him superficial damage when they traded blows. Not only that, Galan's Critical Over swing is only scratching the surface of mountain lvl, I usually give him the benefit of the doubt but it's clear that Galan only clipped the very top of two small hills.

With the shockwave of the attack, it's main force was absorbed by Escanors body.

I've already agreed that using any form of scaling would make Estarossa the winner of this match (which is why I originally supported him). I don't know how many times I'd have to repeat that

Dude, you said it's a good match, regardless of scaling, when it's just a plain stomp with scaling.

This isn't even relevant.

It's relevant to scaling, that Mel's power level was 3370, with a strength of 960, which is almost 50x weaker than Estarossa's 47,000 Strength. This means Estarossa's strength is >>>> that Mel's, which means he's casual Mountain+ bare minimum.

Really? Most times when I've had to downplay SDS wank on CV, it's usually against people who think all the main characters (10 commandments and all of the sins) are large island lvl+++ and several thousand mach lol.

Damn, really?

I've never seen that on the vine, ever and they sure as hell aren't that strong. I personally have all of the commandments at casual Mountain level(based on scaling) and Mach 500-800 ish.

The stronger ones(Estarossa, Zeldoris) should be at Multi-Mountain+ DC and Durability and Mach 1000 ish speed.

I know. But we can't put a number on that.

Yeah we can. Lightning is mach 286, meaning Mel can easily react to Mach 286 and was blitzed by Galan. Then Meliodas powered up and blitzed Galan in turn, and he's < Estarossa, Zeldoris etc.

This should put the top tier commandments, current Mel and Escanor at Mach 1000 minimum.

Sealed Meliodas in base could lightning time at the beginning of the series, but literally they haven't hand any quantifiable speed feats since then that are superior.

True.

All we know is that they're a lot faster than lightning, due to Galan blitzing Mel then Mel in turn blitzing Galan. But to be fair, low level CP9 members like Khalifa could lightning time, and Luffy's been lightning speed since Skypeia.

True again, which is why i think Estarossa shouldn't blitz here, but he should be faster.

Glad we agree on something

Likewise.

@god_vulcan:

How else would he casually nullify Revenge Counter?

Yeah, that was most likely his commandment.

How else would Meliodas be unable to move?

Um, being completely exhausted, horribly wounded and just having his last attack stopped?

It was clear that Meli was bloodlusted when he was about to dish out the attack, so naturally, being in Esta's presence made the commandment kick in.

Most likely, yes. Though, that doesn't mean it hindered his reaction time or anything, Esta's commandment has never shown to be able to do that.

Estarossa is not faster than Mel. Re-read the chapters again. There were no instances of blitzing at all:

Gallery

Mel was about to onshot all the commandments with Revenge Counter, but Estarossa walked up to stopped the attack; using his commandment to nullify all of Meliodas' power. Your main argument for Estarossa having speed is being FTE to lightning timer Mel, but Mel clearly saw him.... He was just powerless to do anything or fight back.

Not how i see it. Mel swings his sword, Estarossa moves and catches it before Mel can react, i mean, there's clearly surprise in his eyes.

The absolute BEST you can argue is that Estarossa was fast enough to catch the blade at all.

Nah, Estarossa moved a few meters and caught Mel's attack, all before Mel could swing his sword a few centimetres and essentially blitzed him.

But that still wouldn't be that good of a feat because Meliodas was already on the brink of death from the previous fight. He's visibly weakened, battered, and brutalized. Obviously not his peak performance

Interms of speed, power etc, sure. But his reaction time shouldn't have been impacted at all.

@hittheassasin: I just saw you split your rebuttals into two posts. I'm busy right now so I'll respond to the other one later

Unless Kuma BFRs from the very beginning, might go with Estarossa.