Azula honestly wins 10/10 under normal condidtions, 6 or 7/10 under Sozin's Comet. Physical Advantages: Agility, Speed, Reflexes, h2h combat They are pretty even in durability
Bending Advantages: Attack Speed, Lightning Redirection, Versatality, Instant Lightning, Defence They are pretty even in raw power, heck their jet propulsion is about the same
First of all, Ozai's lightning will only make it bad for him. She can redirect it and quickly finish the fight. Otherwise, she can always snipe him with instant lightning that he has no answer to. If this gets in CQC, she wins via being a better h2h combatant pretty decisevely and as for defence, she has stonewall defence too (the energy ball).
/thread
People may not like it, but IMO, benders like Katara or Toph would also beat him. Let alone all the LoK benders. Heck, Zuko could do it too..
@lvenger: We get the idea when we compare him to Zuko and Azula, and they have more than enough showings for a solid build.
The only thing that would help Ozai under Sozin's Comet would be jet propulsion where he is more mobile, but she still wins solidly. Just not a total 10/10 majority arguably.
Ozai was constantly portrayed as superior to Azula and Zuko. Creators specifically said he was the most powerful firebender in the verse. He's got better feats under Sozin's Comet. All that's enough to say Ozai wins. Only reason an argument could be made for Azula would be by ignoring all the implications about where they stand relative to each other
@arcus1: Good thing she is a lot stronger by S&S, and the perfect counter to someone like her father.
Based on his hype, he would need a fully realised Avatar to take him down withoutthe comet. Unless you agree on that, it's really not good to go by that logic. Let alone the fact that many characters very often overestimate each other, plenty of examples to come by.
Plus who knows if Azula would even fight her dad with morals on.
She will:
The difference is that she got flat out a lot better in S&S. What will Ozai do for lightning redirection and instant lightning? He almost got murdered twice by lightning.
@arcus1: Good thing she is a lot stronger by S&S, and the perfect counter to someone like her father.
Based on his hype, he would need a fully realised Avatar to take him down withoutthe comet. Unless you agree on that, it's really not good to go by that logic. Let alone the fact that many characters very often overestimate each other, plenty of examples to come by.
She's not that much stronger by S&S. She's a lot stronger compared to when she was insane, sure
The writers outright stated he was the most powerful firebender. That's not character statements, that's straight from the authority.
Based on hype it would take a fully realized Avatar or an equally high end master bender, someone of White Lotus caliber
@arcus1: Good thing she is a lot stronger by S&S, and the perfect counter to someone like her father.
Based on his hype, he would need a fully realised Avatar to take him down withoutthe comet. Unless you agree on that, it's really not good to go by that logic. Let alone the fact that many characters very often overestimate each other, plenty of examples to come by.
She's not that much stronger by S&S. She's a lot stronger compared to when she was insane, sure
The writers outright stated he was the most powerful firebender. That's not character statements, that's straight from the authority.
Based on hype it would take a fully realized Avatar or an equally high end master bender, someone of White Lotus caliber
You don't get my point. It's not that Azula became leagues better or anything. It's what she learned. What exactly is Ozai's counter to redirection and instant lightning? There's nothing he can really do about it. if that was a pure firebending contest, I could see him winning.
They said he was considered. And bending is not the only thing that counts in a fight. Plus, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about his overall hype. Being the strongest firebender is not something that puts you above a 4 elements Avatar, 3 other masters (and 2 skilled non-benders). This really isn't that relevant tho, since I agree he would beat EoS Azula and he is stronger than her there. But if you basically talked about where these 2 stand relative to each other. Which is basically based on character statements.
[Holding his head with both hands.] This is bad. [Sinks down to his knees.] This is really, really bad.
Katara
Aang, you don't have to do this alone.
Toph, Zuko, Sokka, and Suki stand next to Katara.
Toph
Yeah, if we all fight the Fire Lord together, we got a shot at taking him down.
Sokka
All right! Team Avatar is back! Air. [Shot of Aang.] Water. [Shot of Katara.] Earth. [Shot of Toph.] Fire. [Shot of Zuko. Sokka gives Suki a clump of leaves and holds up a large leaf.] Fan and sword! [Sokka's leaf wilts.]
Aang
Fighting the Fire Lord is going to be the hardest thing we've ever done together, but I wouldn't want to do it any other way.
This is the Gaang talking about a non-amped Ozai. It's ridiculous, really. And Aang was training all day and night litteraly getting sick in order to be able to beat Ozai without bending....
@arcus1: Good thing she is a lot stronger by S&S, and the perfect counter to someone like her father.
Based on his hype, he would need a fully realised Avatar to take him down withoutthe comet. Unless you agree on that, it's really not good to go by that logic. Let alone the fact that many characters very often overestimate each other, plenty of examples to come by.
She's not that much stronger by S&S. She's a lot stronger compared to when she was insane, sure
The writers outright stated he was the most powerful firebender. That's not character statements, that's straight from the authority.
Based on hype it would take a fully realized Avatar or an equally high end master bender, someone of White Lotus caliber
You don't get my point. It's not that Azula became leagues better or anything. It's what she learned. What exactly is Ozai's counter to redirection and instant lightning? There's nothing he can really do about it. if that was a pure firebending contest, I could see him winning.
They said he was considered. And bending is not the only thing that counts in a fight. Plus, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about his overall hype. Being the strongest firebender is not something that puts you above a 4 elements Avatar, 3 other masters (and 2 skilled non-benders).
This really isn't that relevant tho, since I agree he would beat EoS Azula and he is stronger than her there. But if you basically talked about where these 2 stand relative to each other. Which is basically based on character statements.
[Holding his head with both hands.] This is bad. [Sinks down to his knees.] This is really, really bad.
Katara
Aang, you don't have to do this alone.
Toph, Zuko, Sokka, and Suki stand next to Katara.
Toph
Yeah, if we all fight the Fire Lord together, we got a shot at taking him down.
Sokka
All right! Team Avatar is back! Air. [Shot of Aang.] Water. [Shot of Katara.] Earth. [Shot of Toph.] Fire. [Shot of Zuko. Sokka gives Suki a clump of leaves and holds up a large leaf.] Fan and sword! [Sokka's leaf wilts.]
Aang
Fighting the Fire Lord is going to be the hardest thing we've ever done together, but I wouldn't want to do it any other way.
This is the Gaang talking about a non-amped Ozai. It's ridiculous, really.
And Aang was training all day and night litteraly getting sick in order to be able to beat Ozai without bending....
If lightning redirection was a guaranteed win against Ozai, then Iroh would've been confident he could beat him. But he wasn't, because redirection is not an auto-win
And who says fighting Ozai wouldn't be the hardest thing they'd done?
@arcus1: Its something that cancels out his lightning and leaves space for her to spam instant lightning. And he nearly got murdered by redirection 2 times.
The Avatar, a Master Earthbender, master firebender, a master waterbender said THEY HAVE A SHOT at taking him down. They werent even sure. Theres no reason this makes sense, which is why I won't use Ozai's overhype on any argument.
@arcus1: Its something that cancels out his lightning and leaves space for her to spam instant lightning. And he nearly got murdered by redirection 2 times.
The Avatar, a Master Earthbender, master firebender, a master waterbender said THEY HAVE A SHOT at taking him down. They werent even sure. Theres no reason this makes sense, which is why I won't use Ozai's overhype on any argument.
There's no guarantee that the lighting would kill him. Zuko didn't die when he got hit by Azula's redirected lighting. Ozai's extremely durable, and I doubt an unamped instant lighting blast would be enough to put him down.
If redirection was a guarantee to be able to beat him, Iroh would have had no doubt he could take Ozai.
I mean yeah, they don't know the limits of Ozai's power, so how could they be sure? Even Zuko wouldn't know definitively how good Ozai is, just that he's better than him.
And statements by the writers aren't overhype. Redirection isn't enough to bring Azula to a point where she can definitively beat Ozai
@arcus1: His own lightning is strong enough to kill him. That aside, Im not saying her instant lightning would kill him. It definately wouldn't. But if she lands a shot on him, she can snipe him with a stronger attack while he is down. Zuko who is more durable, was knocked down and Aang had to catch him on an air pillow. Plus, it was nightime.
Redirection + Instant lightning is. And something else to take into account is that most of the lightning bolts Ozai was throwing under the comet seemed to not be redirectable? Is that a word? And Iroh doesnt seem fast enough to dodge this spamming storm Aang was. Anyway, that's another reason I think he does much better against Azula under the comet. We've seen how well he did with Redirecrion both times his lightning was normal size.
How powerful could he be? He would need twice the power of the comet to solo them? I didn't know the true extent of his power till Eos either but seriously?
He knew how good Iroh was, and he believed he could hold his own. Don't tell me that Iroh > Gaang. Zuko might be overexaggerating sometimes but that's nonsense.
I know but but being considered the most powerful firebender isn't something to back his hype and feats up enough to win against someone with every advantage against him.
You're acting as if there's a tremendous dozen of leagues difference between them. Eos Azula might not be able to beat him but she would put up a good fight against him. Taking away his lightning, giving her an upgrade in pure fire and instant lightning js overkill.
@arcus1: His own lightning is strong enough to kill him. That aside, Im not saying her instant lightning would kill him. It definately wouldn't. But if she lands a shot on him, she can snipe him with a stronger attack while he is down. Zuko who is more durable, was knocked down and Aang had to catch him on an air pillow. Plus, it was nightime.
Redirection + Instant lightning is. And something else to take into account is that most of the lightning bolts Ozai was throwing under the comet seemed to not be redirectable? Is that a word? And Iroh doesnt seem fast enough to dodge this spamming storm Aang was. Anyway, that's another reason I think he does much better against Azula under the comet. We've seen how well he did with Redirecrion both times his lightning was normal size.
How powerful could he be? He would need twice the power of the comet to solo them? I didn't know the true extent of his power till Eos either but seriously?
He knew how good Iroh was, and he believed he could hold his own. Don't tell me that Iroh > Gaang. Zuko might be overexaggerating sometimes but that's nonsense.
I know but but being considered the most powerful firebender isn't something to back his hype and feats up enough to win against someone with every advantage against him.
You're acting as if there's a tremendous dozen of leagues difference between them. Eos Azula might not be able to beat him but she would put up a good fight against him. Taking away his lightning, giving her an upgrade in pure fire and instant lightning js overkill.
Prove it's strong enough
I agree the Gaang should be able to beat him. Doesn't mean it'd be easy. Plus, it's not like he'd be alone under most circumstances.
Twice the power of the Comet? Nah. Giving him the comet renders Katara and Toph basically useless. Sokka and Suki already weren't that relevant.
You're the one who said Azula could take him 10/10 times. I never said Azula couldn't fight him, just that there's every indication in the story that she wouldn't win.
Azula has every advantage against him? Ummmm, no. Redirection is the only advantage (and I guess agility). Redirection's the only thing that's changed from when the writers outright stated he was the more powerful firebender (interpret that however you want, seems pretty clear that it means he'd beat her)
@arcus1: Her weaker lightning killed someone with superior durability feats. That's enough proof. As for the instant one, it is strong enough to knock him down. It knocked down someone with superior durability feats. That's enough proof as well.
You think they would struggle? At all? And I don't know what else that includes. Give him Azula, give him an army of FN guards or whatever. Still not an excuse to such hype.
It doesn't. Both of them are great support for defence, Aang could already hold his own, Zuko had comparable raw power.
Yeah, I said that with comic feats she could take him 10/10. I said Eos Azula would lose but put up a good fight which is what makes sense since she said herself she cannot beat him and her showings in the conet were not any sort of leagues below.
Physicals, Versatality, Redirection, Draw Speed are all in her favor. Raw Power won't cancel those out, especially when the gap was not that big.
Ozai doesn't have the feats, but assuming that the amplification of Sozin's comet is proportionate then he's far and away the single most destructive/offensive firebender of the series - and considering Ozai's status/notoriety - I'd feel comfortable saying Ozai wins.
@arcus1: Her weaker lightning killed someone with superior durability feats. That's enough proof. As for the instant one, it is strong enough to knock him down. It knocked down someone with superior durability feats. That's enough proof as well.
You think they would struggle? At all? And I don't know what else that includes. Give him Azula, give him an army of FN guards or whatever. Still not an excuse to such hype.
It doesn't. Both of them are great support for defence, Aang could already hold his own, Zuko had comparable raw power.
Yeah, I said that with comic feats she could take him 10/10. I said Eos Azula would lose but put up a good fight which is what makes sense since she said herself she cannot beat him and her showings in the conet were not any sort of leagues below.
Physicals, Versatality, Redirection, Draw Speed are all in her favor. Raw Power won't cancel those out, especially when the gap was not that big.
I already said he'd beat her back in Book 3.
Aang? First of all, how do we know it was weaker? We don't know how long she charged it. Secondly, Aang does not have durability feats superior to Ozai.
What physical stats does she have over him other than agility? The only reason to think she has a versatility advantage would be simply because she has more showings. However, in-universe logic can't be ignored, and by implication Ozai is the more masterful firebender.
Redirection is not enough to let Azula go from being inferior to him to suddenly taking him 10/10.
@arcus1: She was charging a bolt for mire than 5 seconds under the comet, and that bolt was extremely inferior to Ozai's 2 second charged ones. No matter which way you swing it,the difference is huge. And I think you know well that charged lightning from people like Ozai or Azula are definite killer in the Avatarverse (and even if you want to argue that they aren't, the opponent cannot fight afterwards). You can forget this showing if you want. Mako still killed Ming Hua and I doubt his instant lightning's power is anywhere even remotely close to Ozai's lightning. As for Aang's durability, he straight up tanked an explosion to the face.
Agility, Reflexes, she has superior h2h and even if it isn't a physical stat it's a great advantage for firebender battles especially. He never gave me the impression that he is anyone with some great versatality or technique in his fight with Aang. Other than Jet Propulsion, nothing really. He seemed to rely more on his raw power which makes sense and fits to his character as well. Overall, I can see him doing many/most of the things Azula can do with fire since they had some similar moves under the comet. But assuming he can do all the high end techniques she has done is kind if a stretch. Especially since they had different teachers which is pretty significant.
Again. Redirection + Instant lightning is. Ozai has 2 direct showing of being unable to react to redirected lightning. I don't know how that's even remotely debatable.
Hmm its rly hard to tell, Ozai has nearly no feats and her feats are pretty good. He is in the series considered as a bit stronger, but i think the Comic Azula wins maybe 5,5-6/10 times.
@arcus1: She was charging a bolt for mire than 5 seconds under the comet, and that bolt was extremely inferior to Ozai's 2 second charged ones. No matter which way you swing it,the difference is huge. And I think you know well that charged lightning from people like Ozai or Azula are definite killer in the Avatarverse (and even if you want to argue that they aren't, the opponent cannot fight afterwards). You can forget this showing if you want. Mako still killed Ming Hua and I doubt his instant lightning's power is anywhere even remotely close to Ozai's lightning. As for Aang's durability, he straight up tanked an explosion to the face.
Agility, Reflexes, she has superior h2h and even if it isn't a physical stat it's a great advantage for firebender battles especially. He never gave me the impression that he is anyone with some great versatality or technique in his fight with Aang. Other than Jet Propulsion, nothing really. He seemed to rely more on his raw power which makes sense and fits to his character as well. Overall, I can see him doing many/most of the things Azula can do with fire since they had some similar moves under the comet. But assuming he can do all the high end techniques she has done is kind if a stretch. Especially since they had different teachers which is pretty significant.
Again. Redirection + Instant lightning is. Ozai has 2 direct showing of being unable to react to redirected lightning. I don't know how that's even remotely debatable.
And Zuko redirected it. It really wasn't that inferior if at all, was huge when we saw Zuko redirect it into the sky
Mako electrocuted Ming Hua with a continuous bolt
Ozai straight up tanked AS attacks, like a wind blast that blew through a stone pillar. Aang got blown back when his and Zuko's attacks collided. You're still trying to make it sound like a grenade went off in his face, which isn't what happened.
What important techniques has Azula done that would actually matter to give her an advantage against Ozai?
The fight with Aang was not a showing of him being unable to react to redirected lighting, but we've debated that before and it goes nowhere. Simple fact is, the only way you could say for sure it was him being unable to react would be if Aang actually hit him. He didn't, so we could argue about hypotheticals endlessly with no possible resolution.
They are pretty even in raw power, heck their jet propulsion is about the same
First of all, Ozai's lightning will only make it bad for him. She can redirect it and quickly finish the fight. Otherwise, she can always snipe him with instant lightning that he has no answer to. If this gets in CQC, she wins via being a better h2h combatant pretty decisevely and as for defence, she has stonewall defence too (the energy ball).
/thread
People may not like it, but IMO, benders like Katara or Toph would also beat him. Let alone all the LoK benders. Heck, Zuko could do it too..
First don't /thread your own post, that's like rule #1 of the internet.
@jonez_: Before or after he gets fried with lightning?
@jumpstart55:He doesn't have Sozins Comet here, where she would still win.
@arcus1: Not nearly as huge. Ozai's covered like several years with way less charging.
I'm pretty sure it was made clear that lightning in the Avatarverse is killer. If not, they cannot fight after they're hit.
... They tanked an explosion in the face. They went flying several seconds after the explosion. He was even smoking afterwards...
Stuff like solid defence with that energy ball.
He was sitting duck. And when we have another direct showing of him being unable to react to it I don't think it's debatable (also given how the moment wanted to highlight Aang's morals). All evidence points out that he definetely wouldn't.
@anthp2000: Oh then its impossible to answer imo, As no ones ever seen Ozai Firebend under normal circumstances.. And baring Sozins Comet Ozai has literally no feat(That already puts Azula ahead him interms of debating)....We can infer that hes a monster in terms of Fire-bending based on his performance in Sozins Comet but ultimately its .Just conjecture and Hypothetical he said she said...My two cents.
@jumpstart55: I mean, their Jet Propulsion was about the same level and their raw power was also around the same level (not counting charged attacks). Instant lightning and Redirection are a huge advantage that Ozai simply haa no answer to.
@jumpstart55: I mean, their Jet Propulsion was about the same level and their raw power was also around the same level (not counting charged attacks). Instant lightning and Redirection are a huge advantage that Ozai simply haa no answer to.
Good point...But no one in Avatar has ever demonstrated the ability to expel Fire-bending so intense that its like Blowtorches...That level of Skill and Mastery makes think that Ozai might be in a league of his own.
@jumpstart55: Yeah, if that was just a pure firbending contest I agree that he would win.
I can argue the same thing about Blue Fire tho.
Nah their just naturally Hotter under their neutral state(Likely a result of her just being genetically gifted)....But The ability to expel Fire so hot,precise and intense that its like Blow Torches would imply a far Superior degree of Mastery and power...He was bending so intensely that the Fire was ripping the air..Ozai is just on a different level.
And i repeat no one has ever shown that type of skill, even the Dragons werent shown doing that with their Fire rainbow...
@jumpstart55: Its kinda hard to tell with Azula's fire. Iroh barely used firebending on-screen (and he one shot the wall of BSS). JJ had some limited fire wall showins. I guess the best one to compare would be Zuko. You've got any pics of what you mean about Ozai's fire? His basic attacks or like the huge one on the airship?
@jumpstart55: Its kinda hard to tell with Azula's fire. Iroh barely used firebending on-screen (and he one shot the wall of BSS). JJ had some limited fire wall showins. I guess the best one to compare would be Zuko. You've got any pics of what you mean about Ozai's fire? His basic attacks or like the huge one on the airship?
I wish i had a video so you could hear the sound of the air being sliced in half...But oh well..
Look at the beginning effect of the blast...The Fire is so hot and intense that its creating a mini force field at the top of what looks like steam(So hes basically rabidly boiling what ever tiny tid bits of water are in the air)...(Or perhaps its just a refraction of the air from all the heats that in the air, so dont quote me on that.lmao.)....And the fire is so concentrated and precise that its taking the shape of straight line...And if you hear it, you would hear the sound the massive currents of air and wind from the oxygen and fuel molecules being mixed and combusted and at a molecular level and the rabid burning of whatever other solid,liquid is around the fires vicinity ., And all that oxidation in general. becuase hes rabidly generating the flames so quick, intense and blazing hot.
@jumpstart55: You mean that small steam at the beggining that isn't shown in this gif?
Azula's fire blazed with some thin lines around it when she was throwing blasts during her grounded jet propulsion.
Now compare that to Azulas blast during Sozins Comet...Her fire is impressive but its not as Skillfully fired or anywhere near as Intense.
And i dont quite see the same effect in her jets
And hears a average Fire blast from her
How can you even compare a 5 second charged attack to some basic fireblasts? It's not anything fair. Azula never charged her fire during Sozin's Comet, here's what her charged attacks look like:
If you are to do a fair comparsion between their jet propulsion, do it when both used it under Sozin's Comet:
Or try to compare similar techniques:
Gallery
Gallery
Those are 2 fireballs to open the fight, here's what a basic fire blast from her looks like:
And let's compare their basic attacks under Sozin's Comet:
Look you can even see in these two pics...Ozais flames clearly look alot more intense and look at how focused and precise the flames are...Azulas flames looks wilder and unkempt by comparison..
And
And also look at Ozais flames(In the picture bellow) their much bigger,stronger focused and fiery looking then hers...Azulas flames in this shot really dont look impressive at all, her fire looks kinda unsteady and out of focus.(She wasnt in her right state of mind, ill give you that, but its still Sozin Comet enhanced fire-bending.
Compared to this
Azula has never shown sufficient enough skill to fire a blast this powerful precise and intense...
I also dont ever remember her doing this
or This(Look at how big the radius of the ring is )
And look at the sheer size of this blast, it might be the biggest we have ever seen in the series.
Look you can even see in these two pics...Ozais flames clearly look alot more intense and look at how focused and precise the flames are...Azulas flames looks wilder and unkempt by comparison..
And
And also look at Ozais flames(In the picture bellow) their much bigger,stronger focused and fiery looking then hers...Azulas flames in this shot really dont look impressive at all, her fire looks kinda unsteady and out of focus.(She wasnt in her right state of mind, ill give you that, but its still Sozin Comet enhanced fire-bending.
Compared to this
Azula has never shown sufficient enough skill to fire a blast this powerful precise and intense...
I also dont ever remember her doing this
or This(Look at how big the radius of the ring is )
And look at the sheer size of this blast, it might be the biggest we have ever seen in the series.
Of course her flames were wilder and more unfocused. It''s basically demonstrating her breakdown effects on bending. It was done specifically on purpose.
As for the first pic, Ozai's fire was turning red and looked stronger because Aang's rock armor was blocking it.
Yeah, they are slightly bigger, hence me saying, around the same level. Just like his fire jets were better, just not any league above or anything.
He would never get this charged attack in a fight.
I'm not debating on pure firebending. I already established how in pure fire, Ozai would win (not easily at all), but Azula has the edge in physcials, versatality, lightningbending and overall would win in an all out fight with the comet or not.
@anthp2000: While I still maintain that Ozai is by far the superior Firebending in terms of skill and raw power(And I really don't think it's close).And would handily win 9.5 times out of 10.. I do Agree that if Azula got the right angular shot with lightning she could weaken her Pops and go in for a second lighting attack which likely might be fatal, she certainly has the agility and acrobatic athleticism to do so..Plus Ozai Dosent even know how to redirect lighting, so one shot of lighting might be fatal if fired at him(Aaang was knocked unconscious and Zuko who slightly redirected it was severely weakened)...And considering how how blindly fast he was moving against Aang,few if any would be quick enough to even get the shot off before he could react..But Azula could certainly do so.
With S&S feats I have to admit Azula would win. Ozai can't redirect lightning while Azula can. That's about all there is to it. Now with the Comet, it's debatable, maybe leaning toward Ozai.
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