Azula vs Kuvira vs Ming-Hua

Lol, That's basically what you said before (Which I second) I know how you feel also, heck I get embarrassed by stuff I posted few months ago. I wanted to know because everyone was jumping on the kuvira beats azula bandwagon because of the overrated metalbands and since you were vocal about it years ago, I wanted to see if you've finally given in and become a part of the family, lol.

I'm thinking of making a detailed battleset and stat comparison between both characters but i'm not sure about it yet.

@infintegod12: Suyin and Lin could give toph in her prime a good fight, doesn't mean they are her level

@aystarr:

I wanted to know because everyone was jumping on the kuvira beats azula bandwagon because of the overrated metalbands

I think people think about Kuvira fighting firebenders on a very superficial level sometimes, because of how she was shown visually. We saw her practically spamming a technique that would be dangerous against an opponent who cannot produce stonewall type defences. We've also seen her use environmental type earthbending to compliment her metalbending impressively. And we've also seen her dodging out fireblasts like they're nothing.

The problem with this is that we saw her do most of that against a Korra who was noted as extremely out of shape. Like, it was a major plot point of Book 4 how rusty she was. And while it wasn't as clear visually - she didn't look much slower than the benders in TLA, esspecially given the difference in animation speed quality - she clearly was. Kuvira was literally moving out of the way of Korra's attacks before she even produced them, it was mostly aim dodging, something you cannot rely on when your opponent is even faster than you are.

When you actually think about what Kuvira can do to stop Azula from just taking her down, it's not as easy as that. Kuvira would be up against someone who has the advantage of 'stonewall' type defence compared to other firebenders, is faster than her, is more than evasive enough to time and dodge out a number of her attacks, is powerful enough to produce large scale attacks that Kuvira cannot dodge, or small scale attacks that are every bit as fast as Kuvira's metal bands and equally dangerous, in that they will knock her out, injure or burn her if they land and finally, someone who is definitively more than a match for her in close quarters.

@anthp2000:I don't say this alot but I personally think kuvira is part of the one trick ponies (along with the combustion benders ) that are in the high tier Level.

You may not agree but When you think about it, she falls short in most of her stats except speed and accuracy . She doesn't have any relatively good power feat compared to her tier members, her versatility is next to nothing if not for metalbending, she is average in earthbending at best, not top skilled, her metalbending prowess is still behind suyin's or on par at best. Her strongsuits are her speed (mostly attack) and accuracy. Once you can counter that, she's basically a cakewalk, That's why I put benders with incredible Speed like aang, tenzin,azula and zaheer above her. They've proven that their movement speed > than her attack speed (either by being bending aided or not ) .

As for azula in particular, I didn't focus on her firebending before when pitting her against kuvira, mostly just her physicals in comparison to kuvira's attack but thinking of it now, her fireshield and blast did have like a concussive effect Against solid objects. She blocked this,

Individually, the attcks are on potency par with kuviras metal, altogether is undeniably stronger

This includes - aang's air gust that has deflected metallic substances,same with Zuko, katara's water attack that has cut metal, tophs actual solid attack, and sokka's boomerang which is an actual metal. And she did this without stressing. Her fireblast itself is >= zuko's which has actually deflected metal.

Add her instant lightning advantage with her own accuracy. This shows how shorthanded kuvira really is against her.

@aystarr: I think the statement indirectly confirms that Kuvira is stronger or skilled then Toph was. And Suyin fought Kuvira before who later lost and toss aside.

Ming Hua or Azula

Tbh I feel like Ming Hua might be able to dodge lighting if prepared. Most avatar high tiers are easily lightning timers (Katara, Aang, Zuko, Azula) and Ming is one of the fastest characters we have seen (I think she’s the only person to actually speedblitzed people on the show).

Lol, what?!, how did you even come to that conclusion??!!

Kuvira isn't touching toph, especially when toph has blocked attacks similar to hers, both in speed, potency and accuracy.

@emmafrostxmen: Dodging lightning isn't the issue, her water arms makes her a very open field, if it touches any point of it, she's basically dead/ k.o , I believe she could dodge lightning attacks from slower opponents (e.g Zolt) but from someone who is relatively as fast as her and has high level precision/accuracy , it's likely not, even if she dodges and it doesn't hit her body, her arms would still be lingering, major disadvantage.

@aystarr: I´m not joking, the creators of the series confirm this which means it real and true.

I know the creators said that, I'm asking how that equates to her having better power or skill than toph, kuvira has no earthbenbding power or skill feats apart from basic throws and slices, her metalbending is also a one move only, throw and trap, this isn't gonna work when toph has reacted to similar attacks of the same speed and accuracy, suyin and Toph have also displayed more skill with metalbending than her, there's nothing that puts her against Toph in anyway.

Zaheer gave tenzin a good fight, did he win, no.

B1 katara gave pakku a good fight, did she win, no.

Tonraq gave unalaq a good fight, did he win, no.

Tarrlok gave amon a good fight, did he win, no

B2 Zuko gave azula a good fight, did he win, no

You can't use that statement to justify a battle between them.

@aystarr: You just said the statement as they said Adult Toph can give Kuvira a good fight.. but whatever. Idk why we arguing over something the Creators said that make it official besides comparing feats they show on screen (Adult Toph is featless unless using young and elder toph onscreen ones, but old Toph did evaluate to Korra she was incredibly strong in her prime).

And Kuvira defeated Suyin in a fight before, as I said in a post before, but I guess it won´t automatically put Kuvira above the tier of Suyin and Lin you claimed who is better than her in earth and metal bending.

@aystarr: Her arms are always moving and through so you’d have to be incredibly accurate to hit them scaling off of actually being able to speedblitz people (which is unique to her alone) she should be able to do that. Heck Katara (she’s fast in her own right don’t get me wrong) was able to speedblitz Azula with water before she could fire lightning.

The only reason Mako hit her with lightning was because her was literally in a lake of water, how could he possibly miss

@aystarr: I don't debate for Kuvira much, but I think you're underrating her a lot (I'm removing the references to Toph because I think Toph beats her despite the creator statement):

Kuvira has no earthbenbding power or skill feats apart from basic throws and slices,

This is not true:

This is the only notable fight she has with access to earthbending, and we see lots of environmental attack spam in it as well as high-level techniques like earth entrapment. But more to the point, Kuvira's earthbending isn't so much dangerous in and of itself, it's dangerous because she combos it exceedingly well with her metalbending. She uses environmental attacks consistently (which is surprisingly rare; most earthbenders only use environmental attacks on fodder) to knock people off balance to land a strip on them, which is GG. In a pure earthbending fight, someone like Suyin might beat her, but Kuvira's earthbending adds much more to her metalbending than Suyin's does.

her metalbending is also a one move only, throw and trap,

This is completely wrong. The strips are Kuvira's signature move, but she doesn't rely on them at all:

Look at her fight with Suyin; Suyin handles Kuvira's sheet spam easily, but Kuvira quickly adapts, rapidly bends herself a sword and a cable out of her sheets (which is some insanely impressive high-speed metalbending) and thrashes her.

And in her second fight with Korra, Kuvira doesn't use her sheets once and still stalemates her.

Her comic showings reinforce this:

suyin and Toph have also displayed more skill with metalbending than her,

Can you point to examples? In their actual metalbending fight, Kuvira thrashed Suyin, and Toph is way behind either of them as a metalbender in combat terms.

Kuvira has displayed far superior metal bending to suyin, who frankly relies on sheets/projectiles far more than kuvira who has displayed more versatility in both metal and earth, and more power in metal.

Suyin has been overpowered by people like guan. I don’t know why this is still a debate.

Kuvira has displayed far superior metal bending to suyin, who frankly relies on sheets/projectiles far more than kuvira who has displayed more versatility in both metal and earth, and more power in metal.

Suyin has been overpowered by people like guan. I don’t know why this is still a debate.

@mialthefencer: I really love Toph, but she isn’t great in any 1v1. She hasn’t won a single notable fight and therefore the only people that can really make a case for her winning any fight are often wanking her.

Don’t get me wrong, she is easily the most powerful earthbender in history (aside from Kyoshi who dwarfs anyone in the verse) due to the library feat, but she just doesn’t have any feat to suggest she can defeat anyone other than fodder even with all of that raw power

@emmafrostxmen: Eh... based on what we know Toph struggles against agile close-range combatants. I suppose Kuvira does fit that mold, so she might win, but I still think Toph's sheer array of earthbending feats gives her the edge. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Kuvira were to win a fight with Toph in-universe, but from a CV perspective I think it's easier to make a case for Toph.

I really love Toph, but she isn’t great in any 1v1. She hasn’t won a single notable fight and therefore the only people that can really make a case for her winning any fight are often wanking her.

I think this line of reasoning can be taken too far though. Toph hasn't won a notable fight, but her only real 1v1 was against Yaling in the comics, and it's not like Yaling has any real anti-feats, since her only notable fight was against Toph. 0/1 isn't a great record, but it's not like she constantly losing fights either *cough* Tonraq *cough* and we've seen her fight fodder or lesser benders like the Earth Rumblers enough to have some idea of how she can use her raw power in fights. Her fodder-wrecking is among the best in the verse, so we can scale her off there to an extent as well.

@mialthefencer: I agree Toph has nice fodder destroying feats, but like I said her never winning a 1v1 shows she lacks the skills and combat speed / agility necessary beat people that have enough skill to defend against her raw power. I can honestly make a case for Lin Beifong defeating younger Toph based on superior metal bending feats and far better ability / mobility / speed.

@infintegod12:

Kuvira's weapons being metal makes it easier for her to detect, her seismic sense let's her know when kuvira would fire and I don't think kuvira would dare to make this a strictly earth match.

@aystarr: Mai’s projectiles are arrow speed. Kuvira kept up with Korra in combat, and Korra effortlessly reacts to point blank explosions.

@mialthefencer:

- AT no point in the battle against suyin did kuvira improvise, she was armored and stacked with ammo, if anything suyin was the one who adapted going Into the battle with nothing and still putting up a fight, kuvira clearly won because of her resources and attack speed, she had SWORD which aided her recovery when almost thrown away, she had WHIP which she used to catch suyin off guard, while keeping her busy with her SHEETS, their movement speed, agility and h2h were all equal. Her resources boosted her.

- what, She literally converted almost all her resources to metal in her fight against korra, she did not do anything out of the ordinary in that fight or any of her other fights

she " threw" sheets like 5 times , converted the liquid metal to sheet also, used her "trap" when korra was on top and proceeded to ragdoll korra, when the mech destroyed also, she hit korra with a rock throw which every earthbender can do, nothing high-level there. She resorted to her throw and trap technique as usual , which isn't even a skill feat, Her clear advantage in both fights you mentioned above is her attack speed and accuracy (which both of her opponents could handle), she only beat suyin because of more ammo and she couldn't even take down korra again when korra had already recovered.

As for the comics, Ive not fully gotten into all of it yet (especially korra), I just checked all battle scans for all characters to be updated on their feats so forgive me if I forget some, but even at that, the scan you posted doesn't put her above anything that all of the beifong girls have done.

@vengefulshot:@mialthefencer: being faster doesn't equate to being superior, nothing she has done with metal is above toph metalsuit that she made during sozins comet or her shipbridge crush feat in "the awakening", suyin's armor making feat also shows how she can manipulate metal skillfully/fluidly on a larger scale .

@aystarr:

- AT no point in the battle against suyin did kuvira improvise, she was armored and stacked with ammo, if anything suyin was the one who adapted going Into the battle with nothing and still putting up a fight, kuvira clearly won because of her resources and attack speed, she had SWORD which aided her recovery when almost thrown away, she had WHIP which she used to catch suyin off guard, while keeping her busy with her SHEETS, their movement speed, agility and h2h were all equal. Her resources boosted her.

Kuvira didn't actually go into the fight with a whip or a sword. She produced them on the spot, nigh-instantly, from her armor:

Kuvira's just that good.

- what, She literally converted almost all her resources to metal in her fight against korra, she did not do anything out of the ordinary in that fight or any of her other fights

The point is that she's not a one trick pony like you're saying. Just because an opponent can handle her strips doesn't mean she can't beat them (Suyin) or stalemate them (Korra).

she " threw" sheets like 5 times , converted the liquid metal to sheet also,

She used meteors.

used her "trap" when korra was on top and proceeded to ragdoll korra, when the mech destroyed also, she hit korra with a rock throw which every earthbender can do, nothing high-level there. She resorted to her throw and trap technique as usual , which isn't even a skill feat, Her clear advantage in both fights you mentioned above is her attack speed and accuracy (which both of her opponents could handle), she only beat suyin because of more ammo and she couldn't even take down korra again when korra had already recovered.

Both Suyin and Korra handled her attack speed and accuracy just fine. Suyin was unable to handle Kuvira's extremely good recovery speed and combos and Korra was taken off guard by Kuvira's environmental manipulation.

As for the comics, Ive not fully gotten into all of it yet (especially korra), I just checked all battle scans for all characters to be updated on their feats so forgive me if I forget some, but even at that, the scan you posted doesn't put her above anything that all of the beifong girls have done.

She bent the better part of a room to take down Mako/Bolin/Asami/Guan and she's already above the Beifongs because she spanked Suyin.

That cant be scaled based on that, Kuviras movement speed when against korra is not equal to her Natural attack speed Because of varying distance when in battle, kuvira and mai projectile speed is more comparable, but because of Mais ability to fire multiple projectiles at once, her attack per period (firing rate) is better than kuvira's . Zuko has also dealt with point blank explosions, and zhao has kept up with zuko so does that mean zhao=korra in speed now?

@mialthefencer:

-OK first, the scan of kuvira's armor has not been confirmed, second, If that was the case (which again is not confirmed), toph has been doing that since the era of making nickelodeon symbol with rocks and her metal bracelet attacks, what kuvira would be doing is basically that but with more resources(I.e Total metal reconstruction) but still, While that's impressive, she hasn't shown that fluidity is larger scale like suyin with the sheet - armor conversion Or toph's armor. (although I would say she uses the technique more ).

- using meteors doesn't change the point, I knew, the fact is that she reconstructed them so sheets which she fired at korra, hoping to do her normal "throw and trap technique "

- I agree with you on why suyin lost her battle but why she even recovered in the first instance was because of her ammo, suyin did not have the same luxury at hand, she caught korra off-guard by environmental manipulation in an enclosed room built with metal, not impressive, anyone relatively on her tier would replicate that, again, luxury .

- like I said before, superior speed does not equal superior metalbending, she won suyin because of other factors , not because of she has superior metalbending(you even admitted that by mentioning her recovery speed) , her style is best suited against foes like pakku, jeong or even ghazan, but against characters like toph, katara who have been shown to keep up with attack speeds of her level with top notch defenses and are superior In other factors or characters like tenzin, aang, azula whose speed outright outclasses her movement and attack speed and are also superior in other factors , she falls short.

@aystarr:

-OK first, the scan of kuvira's armor has not been confirmed, second, If that was the case (which again is not confirmed), toph has been doing that since the era of making nickelodeon symbol with rocks and her metal bracelet attacks, what kuvira would be doing is basically that but with more resources(I.e Total metal reconstruction) but still, While that's impressive, she hasn't shown that fluidity is larger scale like suyin with the sheet - armor conversion Or toph's armor. (although I would say she uses the technique more ).

It has been confirmed. She does it again in the comics:

@aystarr: I wasn’t trying to argue that Kuvira could speedblitz Toph Lol, I was just saying she has an advantage in combat speed, agility, and manoeuvrability

in that case, Yes, I agree. But that won't matter when toph sends an attack with a radius larger than her Movement speed Can get her to .

@mialthefencer said:

@aystarr:

-OK first, the scan of kuvira's armor has not been confirmed, second, If that was the case (which again is not confirmed), toph has been doing that since the era of making nickelodeon symbol with rocks and her metal bracelet attacks, what kuvira would be doing is basically that but with more resources(I.e Total metal reconstruction) but still, While that's impressive, she hasn't shown that fluidity is larger scale like suyin with the sheet - armor conversion Or toph's armor. (although I would say she uses the 4technique more ).

It has been confirmed. She does it again in the comics:

but you do agree that she hasn't done that on a larger scale level right?

I do think she's talented in metalbendeing but not above suyin or toph, I would say they're on par at most, she just has more showings.Again, I might be missing some comic feats (especially the recent ones) but I don't think she showed anything impressive that what she's done before.

And forgive my spelling errors, I just realized I made a lot above, lol.

Tbh that was pretty embarrassing.

That doesn't really look like overpowering. They had their cables focused on Asami, Bolin and Mako, then Gaun came and just metalcut the cables which they were not expecting. If they had used it on him, and he broke free that would be different.

Overpowering is probably the wrong word, I'd say outskilled since Guan and not the other metalbenders did it it's presumably not easy. Taking control of someone's cables was something that they were trained in at Zaofu(Korra and Bolin vs Wei and Wing) so they should have been reasonably been prepared with a small army of metalbenders present.

I already responded, but this.

And Kuvira ain't puttin prime Toph in any kind of struggle, except maybe if Toph completely stops improving after Imbalance.

I really wouldn't put too much stock in saying that Guan did something to show superiority to Su or the twins. Bolin brought down the earth shields put up by the Beifongs, doesn't mean he overpowered them, I'd just say it means that they weren't focused on preventing him from bending the rock wall (because the combined power of Toph and the other Beifongs is definitely superior to Bolin)

It's kinda like how Aang's earthbending charge in the Catacombs fight got interrupted by a Dai Li agent. It doesn't mean that the Dai Li agent was stronger than Aang or better than him, just that Aang's focus was not on countering another earthbender

Now, you could argue that they should have been prepared for something like what Guan did, but their whole focus was being quick enough to not have to engage the metalbenders. Plus, the whole team was kinda jobbing in that particular encounter, as was more or less shown when they mopped the floor with the same group of soldiers in the very next issue

People are legitimately making feats out of nothing with the LoK trilogies at this point.

@arcus1 said:

I really wouldn't put too much stock in saying that Guan did something to show superiority to Su or the twins. Bolin brought down the earth shields put up by the Beifongs, doesn't mean he overpowered them, I'd just say it means that they weren't focused on preventing him from bending the rock wall (because the combined power of Toph and the other Beifongs is definitely superior to Bolin)

Bolin had help which means it wasn't as simple as any earthbender bringing down the wall, there was some resistance on their end.

It's kinda like how Aang's earthbending charge in the Catacombs fight got interrupted by a Dai Li agent. It doesn't mean that the Dai Li agent was stronger than Aang or better than him, just that Aang's focus was not on countering another earthbender

But the Dai Li came out of nowhere, they were well aware of Guan and his forces.

Now, you could argue that they should have been prepared for something like what Guan did, but their whole focus was being quick enough to not have to engage the metalbenders.

Korra specifically outlined in the plan that they have to be ready for Guan's forces attacking they didn't forget, they just hoped they could somehow retrieve the trio before.

Plus, the whole team was kinda jobbing in that particular encounter, as was more or less shown when they mopped the floor with the same group of soldiers in the very next issue

They held back a bit but in the next issue the matchups were switched up a bit, even than Mako and Bolin did a decent job against Kuvira, and Guan put up a fight against Kuvira solo.

That's not what's happening at all, no one is saying Guan is stronger than Suyin, but he can have a legitimate skill showing on his own(and a surprisingly easy method to counter cables made obvious).

In regard's to Korra's feats if that's what you're referring to there aren't any exaggerations the comics have done a fantastic job expanding her airbending skillet further and giving her unique bending moves, which have rightfully impressed a lot of readers.

@tektonic:

Yeah, there were a couple other soldiers involved, but still, Bolin + two fodder soldier doesn't equal the power or skill of Toph+Suyin+Kuvira

I really woudn't say that Guan snapping the cables is anything particularly noteworthy

@emmafrostxmen:

Heck Katara (she’s fast in her own right don’t get me wrong) was able to speedblitz Azula with water before she could fire lightning.

That never happened at all.

Not just for the LoK trilogies apparently.

@tektonic:

I was not referring to Korra's showings there (although they can be exaggerated just as much sometimes).

No one said Guan is stronger than Suyin? Someone literally said he overpowered her like 5 or 10 posts ago or wherever that post is. And it's the same case with Bolin and some fodder bringing down 3 masters' defence. The Beifongs literally had their backs turned to the soldiers. They weren't overpowered.

I think it's clear people get caught up in the hype of new action for the characters after all these years and make average stuff meant to look cool into feats and establishments that just aren't there, just so they can support their ideas on the ranking system. Impressive combat / bending demonstrations were honestly the last thing the two LoK trilogies seemingly focused on. No one did anything they couldn't have done or didn't already do in the show. The fact that Korra did not enter the Avatar State once in that sequence or that Toph did not just put them all on their arses with a gesture like before should be evidence enough of this.

@morbusgrav: Katara pulling up water before Azula could fire lightning is the exact definition of speedblitzing someone with superior draw speed

What, don't tell me you are seriously talking about the finale do you even understand what blitzing means?

Azula needed to charge her lightning before the comics, and Katara needed to use a prepared trick to do all of that. Also was Katara just able to pull up the water in the very last moment, Azula was in fact even faster than Katara there considering how much more she moved in the same time frame if she had just shot a blast from the ground would be Katara dead.

Also in terms of this matchup it's:

Azula>Kuvira >/=/< Ming Hua(I'm conflicted on this matchup).

But overall Azula should win, she can electrocute Ming, and it won't be easy but she can beat Kuvira.

You can scale it based on the rest of the statement, as it put her above Suyin, Lin, Ghazan, and Bolin, as they were all skipped over for a direct comparison to Toph herself, At the least the fight would be better than her vs Su.

@morbusgrav: No, Azula was capable of instant uncharged lightning prior, it was just weaker. Don’t tell me you actually think Azula was pointing directly at Katara’s face and yet you don’t think lightning was right about to come out of her fingers? The episode even implied Katara was milliseconds away from death

Katara outsped her in draw speed, plain and simple. If any other character did this it would be a feat, but because Katara did it’s up for speculation

Azula could not do that before the comics, and we have no feats that suggest otherwise.

Katara didn't outspeed shit, Azula literally moved around and could've simply shot a fire blast instead before Katara could pull up her water. This wouldn't be any different for any other character.

Azula, except Ming Hua and Kuvira team up.

@morbusgrav: Azula literally shot instant lightning when she killed Aang and she shot it twice during Sozin’s comet. Go rewatch the fight

PREACH!!!, let them hear it well.