Azula vs Kuvira vs Ming-Hua

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Doctor_Vader

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#1  Edited By Doctor_Vader

Location: Plain solid terrain.

A River and train line crossing ir (for water and metal supply)

Everyone in character.

Azula is sane

Start in a triangle 6 meters apart

Sun and moon effects are irrelevant on the battle

Who is the baddest

Tagging:

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ANTHP2000

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#2  Edited By ANTHP2000  Online

Azula kills Ming Hua with instant lightning immediately like Mako did. Azula is also stronger than Kuvira. She takes this mid to high-difficulty. Good battle but Ming although a master, won't last long.

I believe it goes like this Azula > Ming Hua > Kuvira, but Ming Hua has an obvious lethal disadvantage and gets killed instantly. So since Azula is probably fairly stronger than Kuvira, she wins. Tag more people. BTW, gap between Azula and Ming Hua is really small although Ming has a disadvantage but they both outclass Kuvira fairly enough as I see it.

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Doctor_Vader

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@anthp2000: who could I tag that would enjoy this battle?

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cpt_nice

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Azula takes a majority

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justicethorpsylocke

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I'd go with Kuvira in a good fight.

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Koays

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Hmm.

The situation makes it difficult to choose.

A Kuvira vs Azula fight could go on forever. Whereas Ming Hua vs Kuvira has me leaning towards Kuvira unless their closer to the water.

End of the day Azula has the easiest win. Shes 50/50 with Kuvira but if she lets Ming hit the water then Kuvira has the hardest time defending herself and Azula can one shot Ming.

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GothamCiti

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#9  Edited By GothamCiti

I'm feeling Azula in good fights cause of her agility, skill, and cunning tactics.

Plus, her instant lightning while normally weak, might conduct and take out Ming who's in constant contact with water and Kuvira who's in constant access with metal armor.

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noobsnowman

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#10  Edited By noobsnowman

Azula, obviously. She is clearly the most masterful and tactically adept fighter of the three by a solid margin.

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Arcus1

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Anyone who says Azula stomps or anything along those lines is wrong.

Yes, Azula has lightning, but she's also shown weakness to water arms, and her instant lightning has not shown the same electrocution capabilities as Mako. A fight between her and Ming Hua could go either way

Kuvira's metal armor makes no difference, a hit from lighting is a hit from lighting either way. However, Kuvira has shown effective defense against firebending, while Azula will have to dodge Kuvira's attacks. Azula also has no familiarity with Kuvira's fighting style

However, Azula demonstrated some very impressive feats in Smoke and Shadow. They were mainly agility, which will matter, and cqc, which won't really matter.

In the end, any of them could win

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noobsnowman

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@arcus1: No one here says that Azula is stomping, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

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HighAccuser

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Ends in a kinky three way.

Nah but seriously I think all three could pull a victory over the others. Azula is very agile and does have great technique but so does Ming Hua who uses her water arms with amazing proficiency. Kuvira here seems to be a wildcard and honestly would make an interesting spectacle.

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#14  Edited By ANTHP2000  Online

@arcus1: No one said she stomps. She just has an almost sure win. She has superior feats to Kuvira and instantly kills Ming Hua because of severe disadvantage. Nobody said it's a stomp though. It's a good fight. Azula would find her much against Kuvira's fighting style but she would still win after a great battle.

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#15  Edited By ANTHP2000  Online

@nerevarine_11: Yeah, Ming Hua is an amazing fighter but she has lethal disadvantage on instant lightning.

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noobsnowman

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#16  Edited By noobsnowman

Azula's environmental awareness is a perfect counter to Ming Hua's fighting style because she can react and adapt to Ming Hua's unorthodoxy. She outstrips Ming Hua in every category, albeit marginally. The small advantages add up to give Azula the solid victory. I won't mention Kuvira because she is the weakest of the three.

Ming Hua isn't getting one shotted, though.

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Arcus1

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@noobsnowman:

There's still the fact that Azula has demonstrated vulnerability to water arms. Katara used them extremely effectively against her, and Ming Hua is more proficient in that technique than Katara

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@anthp2000:

What's she done that's so superior to Kuvira? Yes, she has demonstrated better raw power, but Kuvira's entire fighting style is based on precision rather than raw power, and it's very effective

Ming Hua won't be standing in the river for Azula to electrocute her. Plus, Azula's instant lightning has never even led to a ko

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#20  Edited By ANTHP2000  Online

@arcus1: Azula doesn't noly surpass her in raw power. Her agility is good enough to dodge Kuvira's attacks. Kuvira is also agile but it would be really hard to avoid such big blasts on a train. Azula is described by Iroh as "percise and deadly" and cmopared her to lightning. You can't say that Azula has less percision than her. It doesn't matter Kuvira has her armor. Did she ever endure elctrocution with it?

Weather or not Ming Hua is standing on a lake, her water arms are big enough to become a fairly easy target for Azula's instant lightning and conduct Ming's body. And Katara had the upper hand against Azula when she still had to charge lightning. And let's be honest. This Katara vs Azula was kinda PIS for Azula. We've seen what she could dodge and how many acrobatics she could do without firebending during the eclipse. Against Katara, she was just standing there waiting to get grabbed when she got up. And that's just another reason Azula has the upper hand. She has battled this fighting style before and she won't fall for the same trick twice.

Azula has battled fighting styles of both Kuvira and Ming Hua before. At the chase, Zuko was shooting little quick fireballs at her and she was jumping around while in the middle attacking both her brother and Aang. She has also dodged Mai's projectiles. These techniques are extremely similar to Kuvira's. No attack like that has ever caused trouble to Azula.

The three are at the same league, but Azula is still slightly above them. And I think Ming Hua is also above Kuvira. Not only that, but Azula has experience in both techniques while the others don't. Ming Hua has that severe disadvantage I explained before. Sure, Azula's instant lightning isn't as strong as Mako's to kill her instantly but since it's instand, who stops her from using it more than once? Azula uses something of a unique firebending style. Percision mixed up with raw power and agility. Azula is the one that has experience in both styles while the other two don't.

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ANTHP2000

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#21  Edited By ANTHP2000  Online

@jueix: Classic PIS for Azula when she went up against Katara. They had made her such a powerhouse for season 2 benders that they needed something to slow her down. She was just standing there waiting for Katara to grab her. And Azula gained the experience anyway. She won't fall for Water Arms technique twice.

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Arcus1

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#22  Edited By Arcus1

@jueix:

True, she's improved, but part of the reason this seems so significant is because, in the previous comics, she was rather weak (mental breakdown and all). Currently, she's at her best, but that's not hugely better than she was pre-breakdown

Zuko got that point was a match for Azula. He'd been training with Iroh, who had studied waterbending, and countered Katara with fire whips that clearly paralleled Katara's water arms. I don't think it's any coincidence that, after training with Iroh, Zuko could counter waterbending with a waterbending-esque move

Doesn't change the fact that Azula was clearly on the losing end of that fight with Katara

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@anthp2000:

Never said she was less precise, just that her style is extremely effective without needing raw power

Katara vs Azula wasn't PIS, there's no reason to think it was. Katara's just that good

Azula has never fought a metalbender like Kuvira. She's never even really fought Toph (Black Sun wasn't an actual fight, and even then Toph's metalbending wasn't on Kuvira's level for combat)

I agree Azula's showing against Mai was excellent, and relevant against Kuvira

I can handle the idea of Azula winning, and since she has the most feats it's probably easiest to make an argument for her. But they're all in the same tier

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#24  Edited By ANTHP2000  Online

@arcus1: They are all in the same tier but Azula is at Katara / Toph league. All 3 ATLAS girls surpass Ming Hua and Kuvira. Not by far, but they do. And I can see them winning against Azula but only if they have certain factors to boost them. Current Azula is even above Katara and Toph for many reasons.

No Caption Provided

It was kind of PIS. Azula was standing there waiting for Katara. We've seen what Azula can do to dodge things like that in far worst situtions were she was in the middle of a 3 way battle or at the edge of a gondola against 2 other persons. She, just standing there in battle stance without doing nothing like her. Katara is that good to be able to beat Azula as uch as Azula is able to beat her. But just, not that way. It was PIS.

Again, she has experience in both techniques. She has battle Team Avatar so many times she has a lot of experience in most fighting styles.

And correct me if I'm wrong but isn't metal a conductor for lightning? I mean Kuvira's fighting style won't stop Azula's lightning, it will even make it easier.

And lightning is lightning. If water and metal are conductors, they help the bolt pass through the hearts of the other two.

She has more than an edge here. Slightly but still superior fighting abillities, electrocution and experience in both styles. I don't see any of the other two winning.

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Arcus1

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@arcus1: They are all in the same tier but Azula is at Katara / Toph league. All 3 ATLAS girls surpass Ming Hua and Kuvira. Not by far, but they do. And I can see them winning against Azula but only if they have certain factors to boost them. Current Azula is even above Katara and Toph for many reasons.

No Caption Provided

It was kind of PIS. Azula was standing there waiting for Katara. We've seen what Azula can do to dodge things like that in far worst situtions were she was in the middle of a 3 way battle or at the edge of a gondola against 2 other persons. She, just standing there in battle stance without doing nothing like her. Katara is that good to be able to beat Azula as uch as Azula is able to beat her. But just, not that way. It was PIS.

Again, she has experience in both techniques. She has battle Team Avatar so many times she has a lot of experience in most fighting styles.

And correct me if I'm wrong but isn't metal a conductor for lightning? I mean Kuvira's fighting style won't stop Azula's lightning, it will even make it easier.

And lightning is lightning. If water and metal are conductors, they help the bolt pass through the hearts of the other two.

She has more than an edge here. Slightly but still superior fighting abillities, electrocution and experience in both styles. I don't see any of the other two winning.

It'd really only be PIS if Azula had showings of countering the same technique. Maybe there's things Azula could have done differently, but doesn't change the fact that Katara was able to use that move to gain the upper hand. It's not really PIS

Kuvira's technique didn't exist when Azula was fighting team Avatar

There's not much to really suggest that the metal armor would help Azula's lighting any more than it would if Kuvira wasn't wearing metal. Sure, it's not gonna offer actual protection for Kuvira, but it won't make it easier for Azula either. Ming Hua, maybe, if she's in contact with a large body of water that's an easier target for Azula to hit. Even so, Azula doesn't use her lighting for electrocution like Mako. It's more of a concussive attack. If it hit the river, it'd be more likely to just evaporate some of the water on contact instead of being conducted to Ming Hua

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#26  Edited By ANTHP2000  Online

@arcus1: Yeah, it's not really that much of a PIS, but Azula could do so many things to counter this... She evaoprated Katara's water minutes before. She can handle water really well. Anyway, yeah, it won't make it easier to hit Kuvira, but I just mean that it's useless cause you mentioned it above to give her an edge. Ming Hua's water hands still make it easier for Azula to conduct her. They're not as small as normal hands and they are pretty much made of water. She has a fair disadvantage, just not as big as she would have in a lake.

When I mentioned Team Avatar it wasn't going for Kuvira's style. Just in general. I already gave examples of Azula battling Mai and Zuko for Kuvira's style. Fairly similar. Zuko wouldn't be as percise as Kuvira but his style on that battle was not far from her. Mai is still more percise than Kuvira and the fighting styles are extremely similar. And on her style Kuvira still has to be able to dodge near-human sized blue fire blasts. She can manage that but she will have a really hard time.

Anyway, I believe Azula has this 10 / 10 for many reasons. It would be a great battle but she has this for sure.

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Arcus1

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@arcus1: Yeah, it's not really that much of a PIS, but Azula could do so many things to counter this... She evaoprated Katara's water minutes before. She can handle water really well. Anyway, yeah, it won't make it easier to hit Kuvira, but I just mean that it's useless cause you mentioned it above to give her an edge. Ming Hua's water hands still make it easier for Azula to conduct her. They're not as small as normal hands and they are pretty much made of water. She has a fair disadvantage, just not as big as she would have in a lake.

When I mentioned Team Avatar it wasn't going for Kuvira's style. Just in general. I already gave examples of Azula battling Mai and Zuko for Kuvira's stile. Fairly similar. Zuko wouldn't be as percise as Kuvira but his style on that battle was not far from her. Mai is still more percise than Kuvira and the fighting styles are extremely similar. And on her style Kuvira still has to be able to dodge near-human sized blue fire blasts. She can manage that on the ground. But on a train, all she can do is use metal to protect herself.

Anyway, I believe Azula has this 10 / 10 for many reasons. It would be a great battle but she has this for sure.

And Katara can handle firebending just as well

Her metal offers her defenses against Azula's firebending-she can form effective shields and the like. She did so against Korra effectively

Fight takes place on open ground, just with a train track running across it

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noobsnowman

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#28  Edited By noobsnowman

@arcus1: Katara's fight with Azula and successfully landing a hit on Azula, by my interpretation at least, shows that she is capable of taking wins against Azula, but not for a majority. Katara is well within Azula's caliber of a fighter so it's no surprise that she could at the very least land hits on the princess. Even if Zuko were to not interfere, all that would happen is that Azula would be flung hard and take damage, she wouldn't be defeated outright (if Katara tries to freeze the arms Azula could just melt it with her firebending). Bear in mind Katara would beat Ming Hua for a solid majority as well.

Secondly, this is Prime Azula who after her battle with Katara would have seen the technique before. It wouldn't work on her twice as proven by her own strategic intelligence. Even if Ming Hua were to be more masterful with the specific technique, the technique would be too familiar and Azula would react accordingly. Azula has survived and escaped seemingly inescapable situations because of her insane environmental awareness and unorthodoxy is something that Azula is just well equipped to deal with. Of course if Ming Hua utilizes her tentacles smartly, using a couple for speed and the rest to attack at random directions, Azula would be hard pressed.

Kuvira is a tier below Azula, I can argue her to be the weakest of all LoK villains. Ming Hua on the other hand is an exceptionally strong bender, who can give Azula a good fight before falling.

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Arcus1

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@arcus1: Katara's fight with Azula and successfully landing a hit on Azula, by my interpretation at least, shows that she is capable of taking wins against Azula, but not for a majority. Katara is well within Azula's caliber of a fighter so it's no surprise that she could at the very least land hits on the princess. Even if Zuko were to not interfere, all that would happen is that Azula would be flung hard and take damage, she wouldn't be defeated outright (if Katara tries to freeze the arms Azula could just melt it with her firebending). Bear in mind Katara would beat Ming Hua for a solid majority as well.

Secondly, this is Prime Azula who after her battle with Katara would have seen the technique before. It wouldn't work on her twice as proven by her own strategic intelligence. Even if Ming Hua were to be more masterful with the specific technique, the technique would be too familiar and Azula would react accordingly. Azula has survived and escaped seemingly inescapable situations because of her insane environmental awareness and unorthodoxy is something that Azula is just well equipped to deal with. Of course if Ming Hua utilizes her tentacles smartly, using a couple for speed and the rest to attack at random directions, Azula would be hard pressed.

Kuvira is a tier below Azula, I can argue her to be the weakest of all LoK villains. Ming Hua on the other hand is an exceptionally strong bender, who can give Azula a good fight before falling.

Any way you look at it, Katara was clearly winning in the fight against Azula.

I'm not convinced Katara would beat Ming Hua for a solid majority. It would depend on the environment, mainly because Ming Hua has only one fight in an area with an abundance of water, so we don't know much about how she would fight there, while Katara has many feats of utilizing an abundance of water

You say that like Ming Hua's never encountered firebending before, and Azula's the only one with any familiarity going into this fight

Kuvira's in the same tier as Ming Hua and Ghazan (and Zaheer, before flight). I know you think Korra's an awful fighter, so you probably won't acknowledge that being able to hold her own against the Avatar in the finale was an impressive showing, but it was. And if you don't like that, there's getting the upper hand on Su in their fight

Yeah she's not as powerful as guys like Amon or Unalaq, but neither is Azula

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ANTHP2000

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#30  Edited By ANTHP2000  Online

@arcus1: Wait, apart from all these, I beg to differ on Zaheer statement. He is weak against the rest of the RL members, Kuvira as well as Azula and Katara before flight. He is one tier below for sure. He got stomped by Tenzin and all of them can beat Tenzin on 1v1. Plus, his biggest feat before flight was beating Kya. She's good but not at the level of others above. BTW, the blasts Korra was throwing at Kuvira inside the mecha at the final battle are not comparable to Azula's. In the Southern Raiders she was firing human sized blasts of blue fire (evidently hotter than others as stated by the creators) at Zuko. If Zuko was Kuvira there is no way those blasts would get countered, at least without extreme difficulty. Ming Hua has battle Mako before but Mako and Azula have completely different styles. Mako is used to pro-bending style while Azula has agility, more raw power and percision combination. Kuvira is the weakest of the tree but the gap is certainly not big. I can imagine her causing Azula a looot of trouble but eventually going down.

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@anthp2000:

I wouldn't be so sure on all of them beating Tenzin 1v1, it would depend on the environment. But you're right in that Zaheer's not as strong as the rest of the RL. However, airbending is effective against Kuvira's style, offering defense and agility. A fight between them could go either way, imo, depends on where it takes place

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noobsnowman

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@arcus1:

Any way you look at it, Katara was clearly winning in the fight against Azula.

She isn't exactly clearly winning when Azula was far from ready to lose in that confrontation. At most she would cause good physical damage on Azula if Zuko didn't interfere, and nothing more. Azula slipped and Katara took advantage of it, that speaks well on Katara's end, but I wouldn't dismiss it as Katara > Azula.

I'm not convinced Katara would beat Ming Hua for a solid majority. It would depend on the environment, mainly because Ming Hua has only one fight in an area with an abundance of water, so we don't know much about how she would fight there, while Katara has many feats of utilizing an abundance of water

Regardless of the environment, Katara wins. She is simply more masterful with waterbending overall while Ming Hua shines at a specific use of a technique to compensate for her physical disability. Katara's manipulation of the water elements surpasses Ming Hua's by a noticeable degree. Even in an arena when there is no water, Katara's resourcefulness shows as she can use small amounts of vapour to perform her techniques, though her victory against Ming Hua will be much less certain. Of course, like against Azula, Ming Hua will make Katara work for her victory.

You say that like Ming Hua's never encountered firebending before, and Azula's the only one with any familiarity going into this fight

That isn't my point. My point is that Azula clearly edges out in tactical adaptability, and in a straight up comparison in bending prowess, Azula is better, albeit marginally. I never said that Ming Hua would never encounter firebending, she obviously did. But against Azula who transcended firebending into unprecedented levels, Ming Hua is not going to have a good time.

Kuvira's in the same tier as Ming Hua and Ghazan (and Zaheer, before flight).

I have her below each Red Lotus member.

I know you think Korra's an awful fighter, so you probably won't acknowledge that being able to hold her own against the Avatar in the finale was an impressive showing, but it was.

I find it ironic that while Korra matured as a fighter throughout the series, the villains she faced got progressively weaker. Korra and Kuvira fought as equals anyways.

And if you don't like that, there's getting the upper hand on Su in their fight

You mean Suyin? Suyin, or by extension Lin, isn't that impressive tbh.

Yeah she's not as powerful as guys like Amon or Unalaq, but neither is Azula

Unalaq even without the Dark Avatar state is highly impressive I will admit, he's probably Azula's equal if anything. Amon obviously destroys Azula.

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#33  Edited By ANTHP2000  Online

@arcus1: Yeah, the location and other factors are extremely important parts of the battle but in a newtral environment where Tenzin can't jump around and do acrobatics on the walls I believe that Ming Hua, P'Li and Ghanzan call all take him after great battles. Even without morals like air nomads though, Zaheer didn't prove to be such a threat esspecially for probably the strongest element of the 4. However he has really good escuse. After all he never had a master. He was more than great for self-taught in a prison cell. Yeah, although I don't know if Tenzin is normally better than Kuvira, airbending would prove exceptionally good against her style. That tornado thing he was doing in season 1 against the equalists was amazing though.

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@noobsnowman:

I didn't say she had won the fight, but she obviously had the advantage. Azula couldn't land a hit on Katara, while Katara landed a hit and proceeded to snare Azula. Overall, Katara and Azula are in the same tier, but if I had to pick a winner, it'd be Katara

Yes, Katara has demonstrated more versatility in waterbending, I won't deny that. However, when it comes to combat, Ming Hua has excellent feats of one-shotting Desna and Eska and beating Kya (ok, technically she didn't put Kya down, but she was clearly winning the fight). Her agility, the versatility she has shown with a limited amount of water, and the effectiveness of her style would definitely make her a challenge for Katara. Solid arguments can definitely be made for Katara too, but accounting for Ming's limited appearances I'd put them in the same tier

Kuvira would lose to P'li and Zaheer with flight. Ming and Ghazan, depends on the environment

Each villain offered unique challenges outside of just bending ability, to be fair. For instance, with just bending Amon would decimate Kuvira. However, Kuvira's army, including the mech, would beat the Equalist forces. The Red Lotus didn't want to face Korra in a straight up fight, but they used strategy and tactics to manipulate Korra and take advantage of her weaknesses. Idk exactly what I'm trying to say here, guess that there's more to each villain than just bending or straight up fights

Yeah (they just call her Su often enough). Both the Beifongs are pretty impressive

I'd argue for Unalaq over Azula (assuming, of course, he has a decent amount of water). Yeah, Amon's basically his own tier

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@anthp2000:

That was a sick move against the Equalists

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#36 ANTHP2000  Online

@arcus1: You mean a winner overall or for that fight? Overall if they don't stalemate to death (same goes if Toph was in a fight BTW) I'd go with Azula over Katara in an environment with a fair amount of water enough for Katara to do the things she does, I'd go with Azula. Of course here although she didn't win she had the upper hand.
I would put Katara 0,5 / 10 above Ming if they were in a battle. She won't have the trouble other benders like Mako had since she is also a waterbender. Of course they are on the same tier but as I see it Katara is slightly better.
I don't think that if Ming Hua has a water source like a small lake she can lose to Kuvira. I also think Ghanzan beats her any way. If Kuvira has metal to protect her self from at least one single combustion from P'Li, she can win by throwing her metal even faster than Lin and Su were able to in order to kill her.
Unalaq is definetely not over Azula. He is really below her to be fair. He is still comparable but he was not really that impressive without Dark AS.

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@arcus1: You mean a winner overall or for that fight? Overall if they don't stalemate to death (same goes if Toph was in a fight BTW) I'd go with Azula over Katara in an environment with a fair amount of water enough for Katara to do the things she does, I'd go with Azula. Of course here although she didn't win she had the upper hand.

I would put Katara 0,5 / 10 above Ming if they were in a battle. She won't have the trouble other benders like Mako had since she is also a waterbender. Of course they are on the same tier but as I see it Katara is slightly better.

I don't think that if Ming Hua has a water source like a small lake she can lose to Kuvira. I also think Ghanzan beats her any way. If Kuvira has metal to protect her self from at least one single combustion from P'Li, she can win by throwing her metal even faster than Lin and Su were able to in order to kill her.

Unalaq is definetely not over Azula. He is really below her to be fair. He is still comparable but he was not really that impressive without Dark AS.

The only time Azula and Katara fought with a decent amount of water, Katara was winning

I can see her being slightly better, if only because she has significantly more feats

With a good water source Ming would probably beat Kuvira. Ghazan's the most likely I see losing, as he's the most likely to go down to Kuvira's rapid fire attacks

Su only killed P'li because she was distracted by Lin. In a straight up fight none of the metalbenders could beat P'li

Most of his feats in the final fight against Korra were without the Dark AS (I don't wanna debate this here, I've debated that to death before). Even if you think merging with Vaatu boosted his bending (without needing to enter the AS), he was easily handling Korra and Mako's firebending with just a water pouch

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@arcus1:

I didn't say she had won the fight, but she obviously had the advantage. Azula couldn't land a hit on Katara, while Katara landed a hit and proceeded to snare Azula. Overall, Katara and Azula are in the same tier, but if I had to pick a winner, it'd be Katara

I disagree, but fair enough. I said what I needed to say anyways.

However, when it comes to combat, Ming Hua has excellent feats of one-shotting Desna and Eska and beating Kya (ok, technically she didn't put Kya down, but she was clearly winning the fight).

Well of course, Ming Hua is a formidable. However I believe that Katara is fully capable of replicating this feat based on her existing showings.

Her agility,

Yes, Ming Hua has the edge in this area, and it is what will make Katara work for her victory.

the versatility she has shown with a limited amount of water, and the effectiveness of her style would definitely make her a challenge for Katara.

She can definitely challenge Katara, I'm not disputing that, any notion that Azula/Katara would stomp any individual RL member is outrageous anyways. However in versatility Katara is still her superior, again only marginally given Katara's manipulation of her water bending in many occasions in a more impressive manner as compared to Ming Hua's.

Solid arguments can definitely be made for Katara too, but accounting for Ming's limited appearances I'd put them in the same tier

I wouldn't put limited cases as an argument, what matters most is the quality of her existing feats as an argument. That being said, even if they were to be on the same tier (which I disagree with), Katara would be at the higher end while Ming Hua would be at the lower end.

Kuvira would lose to P'li and Zaheer with flight. Ming and Ghazan, depends on the environment

I rank the Red Lotus members almost equally.

Each villain offered unique challenges outside of just bending ability, to be fair. For instance, with just bending Amon would decimate Kuvira. However, Kuvira's army, including the mech, would beat the Equalist forces. The Red Lotus didn't want to face Korra in a straight up fight, but they used strategy and tactics to manipulate Korra and take advantage of her weaknesses. Idk exactly what I'm trying to say here, guess that there's more to each villain than just bending or straight up fights

I came to the conclusion based on considering and evaluating the overall package each villain in LoK brings to the table, be it bending/physical/tactical prowess. And it goes Amon>Unalaq>RL>Kuvira.

Yeah (they just call her Su often enough). Both the Beifongs are pretty impressive

They're good, but I wouldn't stack them up against the masters.

I'd argue for Unalaq over Azula (assuming, of course, he has a decent amount of water).

The only advantage Unalaq has here is raw power and matches Azula in versatility, but Azula shines in technical innovation, agility and tactical prowess. Though I can see an argument being made for either side.

Yeah, Amon's basically his own tier

Agreed. The only person who can beat him is Aang in the Avatar State.

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I do believe Ming-Hua would beat Azula without instant lightning but like the reasons listed above its just her down fall.

However, in Kuvira vs Azula, I'd give it to Kuvira. Anytime Azula isn't in the air, Kuvira was very useful at bending the rocks underneath opponents to spin them, etc. If Azula is in the air, she has much less capability to dodge Kuvira's metal blindfold things, and the moment Azula gets hit with one, its over.

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#40  Edited By ANTHP2000  Online

@arcus1: I wouldn't say he was handling. He was able to dodge their attacks and fire back for mere minutes and I recall him fleeing. Azula was doing that a lot better without any bending. I don't thnik his no Dark AS bending was getting boosted, however even with that the only thing he did that would match Azula, is that water tornado. Nothing else. Actually, my current CaV is for Azula vs Unalaq :P

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@arcus1: I wouldn't say he was handling. He was able to dodge their attacks and fire back for mere minutes and I recall him fleeing. Azula was doing that a lot better without any bending. Actually, my current CaV is for Azula vs Unalaq :P

Nah, he was blocking/dodging their attacks, landing hits on them while they couldn't hit him. Korra then switched to airbending, which filled the entire hall and was much more effective

@arcus1:

I didn't say she had won the fight, but she obviously had the advantage. Azula couldn't land a hit on Katara, while Katara landed a hit and proceeded to snare Azula. Overall, Katara and Azula are in the same tier, but if I had to pick a winner, it'd be Katara

I disagree, but fair enough. I said what I needed to say anyways.

However, when it comes to combat, Ming Hua has excellent feats of one-shotting Desna and Eska and beating Kya (ok, technically she didn't put Kya down, but she was clearly winning the fight).

Well of course, Ming Hua is a formidable. However I believe that Katara is fully capable of replicating this feat based on her existing showings.

Her agility,

Yes, Ming Hua has the edge in this area, and it is what will make Katara work for her victory.

the versatility she has shown with a limited amount of water, and the effectiveness of her style would definitely make her a challenge for Katara.

She can definitely challenge Katara, I'm not disputing that, any notion that Azula/Katara would stomp any individual RL member is outrageous anyways. However in versatility Katara is still her superior, again only marginally given Katara's manipulation of her water bending in many occasions in a more impressive manner as compared to Ming Hua's.

Solid arguments can definitely be made for Katara too, but accounting for Ming's limited appearances I'd put them in the same tier

I wouldn't put limited cases as an argument, what matters most is the quality of her existing feats as an argument. That being said, even if they were to be on the same tier (which I disagree with), Katara would be at the higher end while Ming Hua would be at the lower end.

Kuvira would lose to P'li and Zaheer with flight. Ming and Ghazan, depends on the environment

I rank the Red Lotus members almost equally.

Each villain offered unique challenges outside of just bending ability, to be fair. For instance, with just bending Amon would decimate Kuvira. However, Kuvira's army, including the mech, would beat the Equalist forces. The Red Lotus didn't want to face Korra in a straight up fight, but they used strategy and tactics to manipulate Korra and take advantage of her weaknesses. Idk exactly what I'm trying to say here, guess that there's more to each villain than just bending or straight up fights

I came to the conclusion based on considering and evaluating the overall package each villain in LoK brings to the table, be it bending/physical/tactical prowess. And it goes Amon>Unalaq>RL>Kuvira.

Yeah (they just call her Su often enough). Both the Beifongs are pretty impressive

They're good, but I wouldn't stack them up against the masters.

I'd argue for Unalaq over Azula (assuming, of course, he has a decent amount of water).

The only advantage Unalaq has here is raw power and matches Azula in versatility, but Azula shines in technical innovation, agility and tactical prowess. Though I can see an argument being made for either side.

Yeah, Amon's basically his own tier

Agreed. The only person who can beat him is Aang in the Avatar State.

Fair enough about Ming and Katara. Imo I'd say they're on the same tier, but there's valid reasons for saying Katara is better

Overall the RL members are roughly equal, but I'd say Kuvira's better suited to fight some of them more than others

Fair enough about the villains

I could argue for Lin and Su holding their own against or beating the likes of Zuko or Azula (as with any fight with an earth/metal bender, depends on the environment)

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#42 ANTHP2000  Online

@pr0tocol: Azula was more than perfectly able to dodge Mai's projectiles as well as Zuko's quick tiny fireballs while in the middle of a 3 way fight. It was never a problem for her. And yet, Kuvira only did that when she first appeared fighting these fodder earthbenders. She hasn't done that to anyone at Azula's level to suggest that she won't get blocked. I don't think she'll have problem with such things. Kuvira has the problem to dodge such big size of falmes. It would be a great fight but Azula is superior to both with the gap being tiny to invinsible between her and Ming Hua even without instant lightning. Kuvira is the weakest of the 3 and while she would certanily give a great fight, she hasn't done anything to suggest that she has the agility or defence to counter current Azula. Azula on the other hand has faced extremely similar technique and prevailed swiftly untouched many times, before. More raw power, versatility, agility and experience give Azula the obvious edge. Anyway, I'm leaving now, enough debating for today :P

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#43 ANTHP2000  Online

@arcus1: Just for Lin and Su. I beileve that it's obvious they were kept in the dark. Esspecially Lin. It's obvious she has so much potential and such a few feats for that amount of potential. I can argue about Lin beating Zuko although I certainly don't see her beating Azula but I see her giving a great fight. Before you say that Zuko and Azula were portrayed as equals first of all, it's not the same. Azula is better against most opponents. She is flexible against many techniques. Zuko isn't as versatile no matter you believe they are equals when they fight together. And in an event called Avatar Extras, they replayed the whole series late at night with the addition of little brackets popping up on every scene. Those brackets contained official information given by the creators about the characters, location and scenes that were playing in general. IN Zuko and insane Azula's last Agni Kai, this popped up: "Azula is normally a much better fighter than Zuko", so we basically have the creators' word for it. I recall watching those extras on TV but I had forgotten it over the years and I got so happy when I ran into them again. It also states many other things like "Ozai is known to be the most powerful firebender of his time" or "Azula's fire is blue because it burns hotter than most", or "Zuko and Katara were meant to be a couple originally", or "Azula was going to have an arranged marriage at Book 3 but the idea flopped". It's also funny that they were using everyday words and teen language :P My point is that you can't argue about them being even anymore...Anyway. Check them out if ou haven't. They're awesome!

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#44  Edited By Pr0tocol

@anthp2000: I'll post in our CaV either later or tommorow.

Azula was more than perfectly able to dodge Mai's projectiles as well as Zuko's quick tiny fireballs while in the middle of a 3 way fight. It was never a problem for her.

Kuvira's metal is smaller then Mai's knives. They would be much harder to see given the thinness, and while that may be easier to dodge, Kuvira can control her projectiles unlike Mai which gives her even greater accuracy.

And yet, Kuvira only did that when she first appeared fighting these fodder earthbenders. She hasn't done that to anyone at Azula's level to suggest that she won't get blocked.

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Yea, that Korra was mainly out of practice, and Azula would of beat her too, but not as casually as Kuvira.

. Kuvira has the problem to dodge such big size of falmes. It would be a great fight but Azula is superior to both with the gap being tiny to invinsible between her and Ming Hua even without instant lightning.

Kuvira has no trouble what soever dodging earth, fire and air from Korra. She wasn't hit a single time untill Korra went into AS. (She was actually laughing at multiple points). Yea, Azula might be able to make bigger blasts then Korra, but Kuvira has earth defenses that can block any non-explosive blast and given Azula's up close fighting style, she won't really use explosive blasts as near point blank range. They'd have a better chance at harming her and not Kuvira.

. Azula on the other hand has faced extremely similar technique and prevailed swiftly untouched many times, before. More raw power, versatility, agility and experience give Azula the obvious edge. Anyway, I'm leaving now, enough debating for today :P

Nobody in the series fights like Kuvira, her style mixing small projectiles with very precise earthbending (like two instances above with targeting Korra's knee and turning the earth on her feet) is unique to her. Azula might not get caught off guard by her style (she would by the metal) but she hasn't fought anyone like Kuvira.

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#45  Edited By Pr0tocol

@arcus1:

Overall the RL members are roughly equal, but I'd say Kuvira's better suited to fight some of them more than others

Say they fought in the same area Kuvira and Korra fought. Only changing instance is Misty Palms Inn for Ming

Who would you say Kuvira could beat?

I believe she'd 50/50 P'li (I don't think Kuvira would beat her in a straight fight, but given her projectiles she could poetentially cover P'li's eye), Lose to Ming depending on how Ming played it and Beat Zaheer & Ghazan.

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@arcus1: Just for Lin and Su. I beileve that it's obvious they were kept in the dark. Esspecially Lin. It's obvious she has so much potential and such a few feats for that amount of potential. I can argue about Lin beating Zuko although I certainly don't see her beating Azula but I see her giving a great fight. Before you say that Zuko and Azula were portrayed as equals first of all, it's not the same. Azula is better against most opponents. She is flexible against many techniques. Zuko isn't as versatile no matter you believe they are equals when they fight together. And in an event called Avatar Extras, they replayed the whole series late at night with the addition of little brackets popping up on every scene. Those brackets contained official information given by the creators about the characters, location and scenes that were playing in general. IN Zuko and insane Azula's last Agni Kai, this popped up: "Azula is normally a much better fighter than Zuko", so we basically have the creators' word for it. I recall watching those extras on TV but I had forgotten it over the years and I got so happy when I ran into them again. It also states many other things like "Ozai is known to be the most powerful firebender of his time" or "Azula's fire is blue because it burns hotter than most", or "Zuko and Katara were meant to be a couple originally", or "Azula was going to have an arranged marriage at Book 3 but the idea flopped". It's also funny that they were using everyday words and teen language :P My point is that you can't argue about them being even anymore...Anyway. Check them out if ou haven't. They're awesome!

In books 1 and most of book 2, yeah, Azula was better. In book 3, any edge Azula had on Zuko was slight at best. The actual fights>pop ups that, iirc, aren't always accurate

Against Katara, Zuko performed better than Azula. She's not better against all opponents

By Smoke and Shadow, Azula's regained a slight edge on Zuko, but they're still roughly equal

What has Azula done to be more flexible against different techniques? We know she's not as good as Zuko against waterbending. They've both done well against Aang's earthbending. Aang never used his airbending much against Azula, at least not in the way he used it against Zuko (Black Sun he used it, but that was some of the weakest airbending we've ever seen from him)

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@pr0tocol said:

@arcus1:

Overall the RL members are roughly equal, but I'd say Kuvira's better suited to fight some of them more than others

Say they fought in the same area Kuvira and Korra fought. Only changing instance is Misty Palms Inn for Ming

Who would you say Kuvira could beat?

I believe she'd 50/50 P'li (I don't think Kuvira would beat her in a straight fight, but given her projectiles she could poetentially cover P'li's eye), Lose to Ming depending on how Ming played it and Beat Zaheer & Ghazan.

In an open area she's not beating P'li. If Lin and Su couldn't take her head on, P'li won't do any better

She'd have to take out Ghazan quickly, but I could see her doing it. The longer the fight goes on, the more the fight would shift in Ghazan's favor

Kuvira vs Zaheer is 50/50, imo

Probably lose to Ming, assuming a decent amount of water. Ming's agile enough to avoid her projectiles, and her water arms couldn't be controlled by Kuvira's bands

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#48 ANTHP2000  Online

@pr0tocol: I think you're giving her too much credit. Azula wouldn't fall for these things given that Mai's style is not the same but it is still extremely similar. What makes you think that Azula would let Kuvira do such things against her? Obviously Azula is much more powerful and agile than tired upractised Korra. Kuvira doing all these implies Azula standing there which isn't happening. She will fight back and won't let her use tricks like this while she is eating blue fire blasts that are human sized in her face. The fact that full-health Korra stalemated Kuvira in a location that Kuvira had a more than obvious advantage against not only Korra but anyone that would fight her says a lot about the reason Korra was getting stomped and was falling for Kuvira's special tactics here. Azula is more than a match for Kuvira and that fight would mean nothing against her. We've seen how fast Azula is at offense and defense.

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@arcus1:

In an open area she's not beating P'li. If Lin and Su couldn't take her head on, P'li won't do any better

Normally I'd agree, but her fighting style is actually pretty suited for fighting Combustion people. I think P'li does take a majority, but I think its pretty arguable.

Kuvira vs Zaheer is 50/50, imo

Why's this? Like.. I don't really feel Zaheer could do anything that Kuvira couldn't recover from, but if she so much as tags Zaheer with her projectiles (which admitedly wont be easy given Korra shown Airbending is decent against it), hes pretty much done. I can honestly see it being done though because we've seen outside of his Tonraq fights, in his Kya / Tenzin fights, Zaheer can be tagged.

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@pr0tocol said:

@arcus1:

In an open area she's not beating P'li. If Lin and Su couldn't take her head on, P'li won't do any better

Normally I'd agree, but her fighting style is actually pretty suited for fighting Combustion people. I think P'li does take a majority, but I think its pretty arguable.

Kuvira vs Zaheer is 50/50, imo

Why's this? Like.. I don't really feel Zaheer could do anything that Kuvira couldn't recover from, but if she so much as tags Zaheer with her projectiles (which admitedly wont be easy given Korra shown Airbending is decent against it), hes pretty much done. I can honestly see it being done though because we've seen outside of his Tonraq fights, in his Kya / Tenzin fights, Zaheer can be tagged.

He was able to put down a chained Korra, so he's got the damage output to hurt Kuvira