Azula, Hama, Ming Hua, P'Li & Kuvira vs Aang & Korra (Read OP)

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anthp2000

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#1  Edited By anthp2000  Moderator

Team Female Villains

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Team Avatar

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Round 1: Azula, Ming Hua & Kuvira vs Aang & Korra
- Morals On
- Avatars have all 4 elements
- Azula is perfectly sane
- Comic feats allowed
- AS is restricted

Round 2: Azula, Ming Hua, P'Li & Kuvira vs Aang & Korra
- Morals Off
- Avatars have all 4 elements
- Azula is perefctly is sane
- Comic feats allowed
- AS is restricted

Round 3: Azula & Hama vs Aang & Korra
- Morals Off
- Avatars have all 4 elements
- Azula is perfectly sane
- No comic feats
- AS is restricted
- Full Moon is out

Battle Location: The Crystal Catacombs

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Who wins?

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Cosmic_Lantern

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#3  Edited By Cosmic_Lantern

Rd 1: I think Azula and Company might win, Kuvira being the main problem. If she can restrict or even slow down aang it's basically done deal, Azula could take a slight majority over korra incharacter alone but adding in Ming almost seals it.

Rd 2: This is a whole different story they don't have an answer for Aang at all, P'li and Ming get eliminated easily but to be fair he'd make short work of any of them in a direct confrontation. Korra isn't as deadly as Aang but she can definitely take any two of them at once Kuvira/Azula would be tough but without morals she isn't going down as easily.

Rd 3: Depends on whose quicker to the draw.

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justicethorpsylocke

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R1. Villains, mid diff.

R2. Aang and Korra, high diff.

R3. Aang and Korra

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Koays

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Good chance for a villain sweep for the first 2 round with high difficulty in the second.

They get curbed in the 3rd round pretty much 100% of the time by the avatars

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Marty2187

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@anthp2000:

The fact is, the Avatar having all 4 elements doesn't mean much because they are rarely bending more than 1 element at a time and never more than 2. Aang had Air, Water and Earth against Azula and they were still evenly matched. Korra has fire, earth and air against Kuvira and they were still just evenly matched. That's because since the Avatar isn't using all 4 elements at once, its more like their opponent is facing 4 different benders who only attack or defend one at a time. The Avatar might have a slight advantage, but not enough to overcome being outnumbered.

Round 1: Kuvira can easily hold off Korra for as long as it takes and Azula and Ming-Hua together should be able to beat Aang pretty easily. There is only one way for the Avatars to win here - Aang solely focuses on defense and doesn't even try to attack. His only goal should be to avoid getting taken out as long as possible and with the right use of airbending, it should be possible. Then, at the right moment when Azula tries to use lightening against him, he redirects it to take out Ming-Hua. After that, its 2 vs 2 and the Avatars can win that one. Chances 2/10.

Round 2: Pretty much the same as round 1 - but a lot harder. Only P'Li and Ming-Hua can be one-shotted - either by lightening redirection or a lucky hit and this time, both Aang and Korra would have to keep dodging. Doubly difficult this time because of the Combustion Bender. Chances 0.5/10.

Round 3: Pretty much an instant stomp. The Avatars can't counter bloodbending without the Avatar State.

Ofcourse, if Avatar State was allowed for even 1 of them, all three matches would be stomps in the Avatars' favor.

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Marty2187

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@cosmic_lantern: they don't have an answer for Aang at all, P'li and Ming get eliminated easily but to be fair he'd make short work of any of them in a direct confrontation.

What are you talking about? Aang has never been able to take a combustion bender in a direct fight. And he has never faced a water-bender as agile and fast as Ming. Kuvira was matching Korra pretty evenly and Azula almost always matched Aang evenly - so no way Korra can take on 2 of them.

Rd 3: Depends on whose quicker to the draw.

What do you mean? What are Korra and Aang going to draw here that ensures instant victory?

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Marty2187

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@koays: They get curbed in the 3rd round pretty much 100% of the time by the avatars

Did you miss the part about the full-moon being out and them facing a bloodbender?

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Marty2187

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@justicethorpsylocke:

R1. Villains, mid diff.

R2. Aang and Korra, high diff.

I don't get it. The Avatars face Azula, Ming-Hua and Kuvira and the villans win. But if you add P'Li to the equation, Team Avatar wins? You think P'Li is an actual liability to the team?

R3. Aang and Korra

You know they are facing a bloodbender under a full-moon, right?

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Cosmic_Lantern

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#10  Edited By Cosmic_Lantern

@marty2187 said:

What are you talking about? Aang has never been able to take a combustion bender in a direct fight. And he has never faced a water-bender as agile and fast as Ming. Kuvira was matching Korra pretty evenly and Azula almost always matched Aang evenly - so no way Korra can take on 2 of them.

Except P'li is nothing but a minor annoyance to aang without morals, if an amatuer air bender can redirect her blasts he should have no problem. Ming although cool is just inferior to aang, he's more agile and has equal if not better water bending feats. Kuvira nor Azula are beating a morals off Korra, her firebending isn't too far off from Azula's and if she's going for the kill rather than submission I can't imagine her not taking one of them in the process.

Kuvira/Azula vs Korra would be hard but it's not like Aang isn't going to be there to help after easily dispatching the other two.

What do you mean? What are Korra and Aang going to draw here that ensures instant victory?

Just what I said. A massive air current and encasement in earth that Hama can't escape whilst Aang takes Azula alone low to mid difficulty.

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Marty2187

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@cosmic_lantern: Except P'li is nothing but a minor annoyance to aang without morals, if an amatuer air bender can redirect her blasts he should have no problem.

Really? Because no amateur airbender has ever redirected her blasts.

Ming although cool is just inferior to aang, he's more agile and has equal if not better water bending feats.

"Just inferior" wouldn't cut it. (Not that I'm agreeing with Ming being inferior). Even a "just inferior" bender can still hold off pretty long against the "just superior" one. And 2 "just inferior" benders can actually beat the superior bender.

Kuvira nor Azula are beating a morals off Korra, her firebending isn't too far off from Azula's and if she's going for the kill rather than submission I can't imagine her not taking one of them in the process.

Are you forgetting that Kuvira alone was able to go toe to toe with Korra? And that Korra has no defense against lightening?

Kuvira/Azula vs Korra would be hard but it's not like Aang isn't going to be there to help after easily dispatching the other two.

What show are you watching? Korra wouldn't last long against 2 of them and Aang has never beaten a combustion bender.

Just what I said. A massive air current and encasement in earth that Hama can't escape whilst Aang takes Azula alone low to mid difficulty.

Do you realize that a) Both of those moves can be dodged, b) Neither is an instant KO and C) Bloodbending is faster than both?

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Koays

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@koays: They get curbed in the 3rd round pretty much 100% of the time by the avatars

Did you miss the part about the full-moon being out and them facing a bloodbender?

Read Hama as Ming Hua...

No answer to Bloodbending without the Avatar state. Maybe an argument an be made for Aang using speed and prior knowledge....but its almost a sweep.

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justicethorpsylocke

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@marty2187:

I don't get it. The Avatars face Azula, Ming-Hua and Kuvira and the villans win. But if you add P'Li to the equation, Team Avatar wins? You think P'Li is an actual liability to the team?

The answer is very simple: morals off.

Aang with morals has been nearly defeated by Azula twice, she would do the same while Kuvira (who has nearly stalemated Korra) uses Ming-Hua's help to defeat Korra in Round 1.

With morals off Aang defeats Azula, Korra defeats Kuvira and Ming-Hua and P'Li are non-factors to either of them morals off in Round 2.

Please carefully read the OP next time before replying to me.

You know they are facing a bloodbender under a full-moon, right?

Yes, I do.

That doesn't stop Korra from breathing fire at her or Aang blowing her down with wind then scorching her.

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Marty2187

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#14  Edited By Marty2187

@justicethorpsylocke:Ming-Hua and P'Li are non-factors to either of them morals off in Round 2.

How exactly are either of them non-factors? No one on the show has beat them in a straight-up fight.

Yes, I do.

That doesn't stop Korra from breathing fire at her or Aang blowing her down with wind then scorching her.

It does, actually - Korra has her firebending when she faced Tarlok and Aang had his airbending when he faced Hama - neither could do anything against bloodbending.

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justicethorpsylocke

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@marty2187:

How exactly are either of them non-factors? No one on the show has beat them in a straight-up fight.

Meaning what? P'Li has beat fodder, and other than that just sniped people. A combination of the Beifong sisters killed her, Mako and Bolin could temporarily put her down.

Ming-Hua has beaten who exactly of note? Kya? Please.

It does, actually - Korra has her firebending when she faced Tarlok and Aang had his airbending when he faced Hama - neither could do anything against bloodbending.

Yes, a morals on Aang and Korra who had never faced bloodbenders and didn't even know what bloodbending was were defeated by it.

With morals off and knowledge from those fights they would beat her easily.

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Marty2187

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#16  Edited By Marty2187

@justicethorpsylocke:

Meaning what? P'Li has beat fodder, and other than that just sniped people. A combination of the Beifong sisters killed her, Mako and Bolin could temporarily put her down.

Ming-Hua has beaten who exactly of note? Kya? Please.

P'Li one-shotted a dragon and Tonraq. She pinned down Lin, Suyin, Mako, Bolin, Wing and Wei. She later went toe-to-toe with multiple metalbenders and Lin and Suyin and was able to push them into defensive.

Mung -Hua beat Mako multiple times. She also beat Kya who was a pretty powerful water-bender. And before that, she one-shotted Eska and Desna, 2 top-tier waterbenders who had proven themselves pretty troublesome to deal with even for Korra.

Yes, a morals on Aang and Korra who had never faced bloodbenders and didn't even know what bloodbending was were defeated by it.

With morals off and knowledge from those fights they would beat her easily.

Morals don't matter here because morals don't give them a way to break out of blood-bending. You think if they turn evil bloodbending would stop working on them?

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Arcus1

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@justicethorpsylocke:

Wait...how are P'li and Ming Hua not factors while Azula and Kuvira are?

Ming Hua beat Mako, Kya, Desna and Eska. P'li one-shotted Tonraq, beat back a squad of metalbenders including Lin and Su, it's always taken at least a double team to beat her. Not saying she can take a bloodlusted Avatar, but calling her a non-factor isn't accurate

@marty2187 said:

What are you talking about? Aang has never been able to take a combustion bender in a direct fight. And he has never faced a water-bender as agile and fast as Ming. Kuvira was matching Korra pretty evenly and Azula almost always matched Aang evenly - so no way Korra can take on 2 of them.

Except P'li is nothing but a minor annoyance to aang without morals, if an amatuer air bender can redirect her blasts he should have no problem. Ming although cool is just inferior to aang, he's more agile and has equal if not better water bending feats. Kuvira nor Azula are beating a morals off Korra, her firebending isn't too far off from Azula's and if she's going for the kill rather than submission I can't imagine her not taking one of them in the process.

Kuvira/Azula vs Korra would be hard but it's not like Aang isn't going to be there to help after easily dispatching the other two.

What do you mean? What are Korra and Aang going to draw here that ensures instant victory?

Just what I said. A massive air current and encasement in earth that Hama can't escape whilst Aang takes Azula alone low to mid difficulty.

What amateur airbender has redirected her blasts? Kai? He avoided some small scale ones, yeah, never redirected anything. If you mean Tenzin, he's hardly an amateur

Aang has done nothing to equal Ming Hua in waterbending except maybe raw power showings. Even then, his raw power isn't enough to make up for the large gap in skill level. Not saying Ming Hua beats Aang, she doesn't if he's bloodlusted, but saying Aang is better than her in waterbending? Hardly

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Marty2187

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@arcus1: Additionally, even if bloodlusted Aang or Korra were able to beat P'Li or Ming Hua one on one - which isn't necessarily true - they wouldn't be fighting them one on one. Even if individual members of the villain team are considered to be less slightly less powerful than a 4-element Avatar, the Avatar would still lose when facing more than 1 at a time.

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justicethorpsylocke

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@marty2187:

P'Li one-shotted a dragon and Tonraq. She pinned down Lin, Suyin, Mako, Bolin, Wing and Wei. She later went toe-to-toe with multiple metalbenders and Lin and Suyin and was able to push them into defensive.

Tonraq? Cool. A dragon? We've seen thin metal block a blast from P'Li, so I don't see why we should take a featless dragon getting one-shotted as some vague but vast estimate of power. A morals off Avatar is like that team combined essentially, 4 powerhouses that would all get stomped by a morals off Korra/Aang even as a team and 2 fodder.

Mung -Hua beat Mako multiple times. She also beat Kya who was a pretty powerful water-bender. And before that, she one-shotted Eska and Desna, 2 top-tier waterbenders who had proven themselves pretty troublesome to deal with even for Korra.

Mako also killed her, albeit under ideal conditions, not to mention that Mako would get destroyed by an Avatar, so...

Desna and Eska gave her trouble when they were on water, which gave them an advantage with numbers plus Korra not having earth or any way of bending traditionally with anything other than water due to her stance relying on staying on a water spout which already takes concentration and skill. I would hardly call either top tier with water. A top tier waterbender is Pakku, Katara, Unalaq, etc.

Morals don't matter here because morals don't give them a way to break out of blood-bending. You think if they turn evil bloodbending would stop working on them?

I don't think that, but with them having faced bloodbending before and not holding back, they'll do thing that don't require body movements in a desperate attempt, such as like I said, blowing air or breathing fire. You still haven't explained how Hama gets around that.

It's also worth noting that the full moon will also enhance Aang and Korra, so they could conceivably resist it given how Katara (IIRC) did so, but that might have been with her own bloodbending, I don't remember exactly.

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justicethorpsylocke

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@arcus1: Because Azula and Kuvira have held their own against Avatars before. Perhaps "non-factor" wasn't true (after all, I did say they win high difficulty) but I don't think they'll really be enough to take out the Avatars at all, especially Ming-Hua who I see getting taken out pretty easily.

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Marty2187

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#21  Edited By Marty2187

@justicethorpsylocke:

Tonraq? Cool. A dragon? We've seen thin metal block a blast from P'Li, so I don't see why we should take a featless dragon getting one-shotted as some vague but vast estimate of power.

Pity there are no metal plates in the Crystal Catacombs. And her blasts disntegrate big rocks and earth-walls just fine.

A morals off Avatar is like that team combined essentially, 4 powerhouses that would all get stomped by a morals off Korra/Aang even as a team and 2 fodder.

That's categorically untrue. A team of 4 master benders would always have an advantage over an Avatar with 4 elements:

1) Individual master benders are usually more powerful in their single element that the Avatar is in any one of them.

2) 4 people can attack you from different sides, whereas the Avatar, being just 1 person, is much easier to keep in sight.

3) If you are facing 4 benders, you can be hit by multiple attacks of different types at once. The Avatar, even after the mastery, only uses 1 element to attack or defend most of the time. Rarely, they use 2 at the same time, but never all 4 - not unless they are in the Avatar State.

Mako also killed her, albeit under ideal conditions, not to mention that Mako would get destroyed by an Avatar, so...

The point being that it'd take a specific skill or environment to beat her and the Avatar has neither.

Desna and Eska gave her trouble when they were on water, which gave them an advantage with numbers plus Korra not having earth or any way of bending traditionally with anything other than water due to her stance relying on staying on a water spout which already takes concentration and skill. I would hardly call either top tier with water. A top tier waterbender is Pakku, Katara, Unalaq, etc.

Desna and Eska gave Korra trouble when they were on water and yet, they were one-shotted by Ming when they were surrounded by ice. That speaks volumes of her skill. And if Eska and Desna can handily bring down a plane, easily beat Mako and Bolin and give Korra a run or her money in any setting, then yes, they are top-tier water-benders at the very least.

I don't think that, but with them having faced bloodbending before and not holding back, they'll do thing that don't require body movements in a desperate attempt, such as like I said, blowing air or breathing fire. You still haven't explained how Hama gets around that.

Breathing fire/blowing air does require body movement. It requires you to take a deep breath and blast it out. In a bloodbending grip, you can't do that because muscles are constricted all over your body making it diffcult for you to breath. At best they'd be able to eke out weak puffs of air or fire which won't even reach Hama.

It's also worth noting that the full moon will also enhance Aang and Korra, so they could conceivably resist it given how Katara (IIRC) did so, but that might have been with her own bloodbending, I don't remember exactly.

That's right - you don't. Hama caught Aang with her blood-bending under a full moon, i.e. when Aang's waterbending would've been enhanced as well. He wasn't able to break free and he wasn't able to blow air at her either.

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Marty2187

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@arcus1: Because Azula and Kuvira have held their own against Avatars before. Perhaps "non-factor" wasn't true (after all, I did say they win high difficulty) but I don't think they'll really be enough to take out the Avatars at all, especially Ming-Hua who I see getting taken out pretty easily.

I'm not sure if either Avatar could beat her one-on-one without the Avatar State.

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Arcus1

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@arcus1: Because Azula and Kuvira have held their own against Avatars before. Perhaps "non-factor" wasn't true (after all, I did say they win high difficulty) but I don't think they'll really be enough to take out the Avatars at all, especially Ming-Hua who I see getting taken out pretty easily.

Ming Hua and P'li have never fought an Avatar before to say they couldn't. However, they have other feats to suggest they're just as god as Kuvira and Azula, if not better. For example, Desna and Eska were holding their own against Korra, and Ming Hua one-shotted them. Granted, I'm not saying the twins would beat Korra, but they're a challenging duo

Would Ming Hua and P'li lose easily to Kuvira and Azula?

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justicethorpsylocke

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@marty2187:

Pity there are no metal plates in the Crystal Catacombs. And her blasts disntegrate big rocks and earth-walls just fine.

Her blasts aren't anything that Korra/Aang can't just avoid.

Whoever used that metal to block it could react just fine, and I'm sure that person doesn't have explosion timing reflexes like Korra.

That's categorically untrue. A team of 4 master benders would always have an advantage over an Avatar with 4 elements:

1) Individual master benders are usually more powerful in their single element that the Avatar is in any one of them.

2) 4 people can attack you from different sides, whereas the Avatar, being just 1 person, is much easier to keep in sight.

3) If you are facing 4 benders, you can be hit by multiple attacks of different types at once. The Avatar, even after the mastery, only uses 1 element to attack or defend most of the time. Rarely, they use 2 at the same time, but never all 4 - not unless they are in the Avatar State.

You have a massive misconception about what I just said.

Firstly, you act as if the team you listed had a master for all 4. It didn't, it had 3 earthbenders (one of them, Lin, is a master, the others are just tough) and a firebender who isn't a master either.

Now if you were talking about a team such as: Tenzin, Lin, Pakku, Iroh or something like that, you would be absolutely right.

And the other stuff would be true if Korra/Aang was morals on, but morals off they would be fighting much more seriously, using elements in a much more confrontation way, especially Aang.

Also, I never said that Korra or Aang (morals off) on their own solo the team or anything like that. Not even close, I said that both of them together could win high difficulty.

For instance, Aang (morals off) would defeat Azula and Ming-Hua on his own with high difficulty, and Korra (morals off) would defeat Kuvira and Ming-Hua with high difficulty.

However, yes I do think Korra/Aang (morals off) would solo Lin, Su, Mako, and Bolin. Since the only master there is Lin. Mako and Bolin were soloed pretty easily by Unalaq, Su was taken out easily by Kuvira, they aren't really a threat to an Avatar especially morals off, seeing as how both Unalaq and Kuvira are opponents that were more or less Aang/Korra (morals on) level but not quite.

The point being that it'd take a specific skill or environment to beat her and the Avatar has neither.

False, they have agility, versatility, and overwhelming power that would put her down.

Desna and Eska gave Korra trouble when they were on water and yet, they were one-shotted by Ming when they were surrounded by ice. That speaks volumes of her skill. And if Eska and Desna can handily bring down a plane, easily beat Mako and Bolin and give Korra a run or her money in any setting, then yes, they are top-tier water-benders at the very least.

Being on a literal body of water is a much greater advantage than being on ice.

For instance, Ming-Hua on a body of water would not have one-shotted them at all when they're able to slide around like they were doing against Korra. Korra in the North Pole would take them out just fine.

They did not beat Mako and Bolin fair and square. They got the drop on them. Literally anyone could beat them if they got the drop on them. I'd wager Dai Li agents would do the same if they got the same element of surprise.

Breathing fire/blowing air does require body movement. It requires you to take a deep breath and blast it out. In a bloodbending grip, you can't do that because muscles are constricted all over your body making it diffcult for you to breath. At best they'd be able to eke out weak puffs of air or fire which won't even reach Hama.

Then explain how Amon (the best bloodbender in the series) had Mako and Korra making subtle movements that allowed him to be tagged by both lightning and air. Do those not require at least a little body movement? I'm aware Korra used AS but she was moving some before that using willpower.

That's right - you don't. Hama caught Aang with her blood-bending under a full moon, i.e. when Aang's waterbending would've been enhanced as well. He wasn't able to break free and he wasn't able to blow air at her either.

You didn't really address what I said correctly. If Katara was resisting (IIRC) then shouldn't Korra be able to? I mean, Korra has more raw power with water than Katara for sure.

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justicethorpsylocke

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@justicethorpsylocke said:

@arcus1: Because Azula and Kuvira have held their own against Avatars before. Perhaps "non-factor" wasn't true (after all, I did say they win high difficulty) but I don't think they'll really be enough to take out the Avatars at all, especially Ming-Hua who I see getting taken out pretty easily.

I'm not sure if either Avatar could beat her one-on-one without the Avatar State.

I don't agree with that at all.

@arcus1 said:
@justicethorpsylocke said:

@arcus1: Because Azula and Kuvira have held their own against Avatars before. Perhaps "non-factor" wasn't true (after all, I did say they win high difficulty) but I don't think they'll really be enough to take out the Avatars at all, especially Ming-Hua who I see getting taken out pretty easily.

Ming Hua and P'li have never fought an Avatar before to say they couldn't. However, they have other feats to suggest they're just as god as Kuvira and Azula, if not better. For example, Desna and Eska were holding their own against Korra, and Ming Hua one-shotted them. Granted, I'm not saying the twins would beat Korra, but they're a challenging duo

Would Ming Hua and P'li lose easily to Kuvira and Azula?

Ming-Hua one-shotted them in a location where they couldn't use the water slide move to the extent they were using it against Korra. Korra would have taken them out easy in the North Pole.

That's using ABC logic. For instance, Kya is nowhere near Kuvira and Azula, but she held her own against Ming-Hua. Most likely due to her using water.

In the Catacombs I can certainly see the argument that Kuvira and Azula take them out easy, considering Azula could pull the lightning trick that Mako pulled, and also Azula is really freaking agile with how she could evade Aang and Toph, and Kuvira is better than either Lin or Suyin with tactics and applications of metal. I could see her pulling a win over P'Li by virtue of speed, tactics, and mix of offense and defense.

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Really? Because no amateur airbender has ever redirected her blasts.

Kai doesn't redirect it but he cancels it out, Tenzin however swatted it away which leaves me no reason to believe Aang can't. Tenzin stalemated (very loosely put for dominated) them for most of the encounter. Again, P'li is nothing but an annoyance to Aang.

Not to mention she has to make near pointblank contact to do any damage, she's not like CM.

"Just inferior" wouldn't cut it. (Not that I'm agreeing with Ming being inferior). Even a "just inferior" bender can still hold off pretty long against the "just superior" one. And 2 "just inferior" benders can actually beat the superior bender.

But what you simply fail to realize is how inferior they are, Both aren't even a threat to Aang with morals off. The fact that he's superior to them in their respective elements makes them next to nothing but glorified distractions.

Please show me one instance of a skill gap this large being overcome by more fodder, Ming doesn't really have any high-end feats rather than agility and Aang outclasses her in that also. Basically the only thing Ming has going for her is the ability to bend consciously, and in that case I'd label her higher priority than P'li whose bending takes time to focus.

Are you forgetting that Kuvira alone was able to go toe to toe with Korra? And that Korra has no defense against lightening?

Wasn't something wrong with Korra at that time? besides Azulas uncharged lightning being crap and charging takes some time, though it is possible in a 2v1 but this was a worst case scenario thing.

Aang takes these two mid difficulty whilst Korra takes advantage of the other 2, or any which way any combination loses to him rather quickly thus limiting the time Korra doesn't have help.

What show are you watching? Korra wouldn't last long against 2 of them and Aang has never beaten a combustion bender.

That's the silliest argument I've ever seen someone present for a character. Just because he's never beaten a combustion bender on pannel he can't beat one? Cool story.

Korra has just as much of a shot as Aang with this amount of water available.

Do you realize that a) Both of those moves can be dodged, b) Neither is an instant KO and C) Bloodbending is faster than both?

Speed feats to suggest Hama can block an attack from Aang after it's fired, or encase her in stone before she moves and crush her? No morals makes it pretty much case closed, he's faster than both and once Hama is out of the way Azula loses to either.

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#27  Edited By anthp2000  Moderator

@marty2187: @arcus1: @justicethorpsylocke: @cosmic_lantern:

You guys forget some things:

1) Korra has a feat of breaking free of Amon's BB. The question is, if she can do it here. Full Moon Hama vs Daylight Amon's BB. Krra cannot breath fire or air while bloodbended. When Tarrlok left her for a brief moment after bloodbending, she immediately did because she couldn't before. Aang can't blow air while bloddbended either.
2) (Arcus already mentioned that) Ming Hua and P'Li have never faught an Avatar before but let's switch them with Azula and Kuvira to see what happens:
Fight at Omashu: Azula would beat Aang if Bumi hadn't blocked the attack. P'Li one shoots Aang and Bumi in that cage while destroying half of the slides.
Fight at Tu Zin: Azula humiliated Zuko and was ready to kill an exhausted Aang. P'Li one shoots Zuko and murders Aang
Fight at the Drill: Azula KOed Aang after a good fight of trading strikes and creating shields. P'Li one shoots Aang and his rock shield once again
Fight at the Crystal Catacombs: Azula one shot Aang in a short clash. P'Li murders Aang once again
P'Li would give him as much trouble as Azula did
Fight at Zaofu: Kuvira humiliated an out of shape Korra. Give Ming Hua a descent water source and she would do the same
Battle at the Mech: That's like putting Ming Hua and Korra in a lake to fight. They would go toe to toe just like them
Ming Hua would give her as much trouble as Kuvira
3) Tenzin didn't redirect anything. He blocked P'Li's blasts. Can Aang do it? Sure. Can he take her out easily esspecially when she is fighting on a team with other masters? Certainly not.

4) Ming Hu and P'Li have feats that suggest they are just as dangerous / good as Azula and Kuvira. Ming Hua is just as agile and has just as good raw power as Azula. The only reason Azula would win between then is because of elemental advantages. P'Li is as dangerous as Kuvira if not more.
5) Desna, Eska, Kya and Tonraq are mid to top tier waterbenders. If not top. Beating them easily, only proves that Ming is top tier herself.
6) It always took at least 2 people and some cover in order to take out P'Li. So saying that she only took out fodder is lowballing.

Just pointing things out. Thanx for they opinions, all of you. I like different arguments from all of you.

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@marty2187: @arcus1: @justicethorpsylocke: @cosmic_lantern:

You guys forget some things:

1) Korra has a feat of breaking free of Amon's BB. The question is, if she can do it here. She cannot breath fire or air while bloodbended. When Tarrlok left her for a brief moment after bloodbending, she immediately did because she couldn't before.

2) (Arcus already mentioned that) Ming Hua and P'Li have never faught an Avatar before but let's switch them with Azula and Kuvira to see what happens:

Fight at Omashu: Azula would beat Aang if Bumi hadn't blocked the attack. P'Li one shoots Aang and Bumi in that cage while destroying half of the slides.

Fight at Tu Zin: Azula humiliated Zuko and was ready to kill an exhausted Aang. P'Li one shoots Zuko and murders Aang

Fight at the Drill: Azula KOed Aang after a good fight of trading strikes and creating shields. P'Li one shoots Aang and his rock shield once again

Fight at the Crystal Catacombs: Azula one shot Aang in a short clash. P'Li murders Aang once again

P'Li would give him as much trouble as Azula did

Fight at Zaofu: Kuvira humiliated an out of shape Korra. Give Ming Hua a descent water source and she would do the same

Battle at the Mech: That's like putting Ming Hua and Korra in a lake to fight. They would go toe to toe just like them

Ming Hua would give her as much trouble as Kuvira

Thanx for they opinions, all of you.

The absolute biggest misconception here is that P'li is even a third as skilled as Azula or that her bending is as strong as CM. I've seen numerous near contact explosions that have done little to no damage. Also the fact that it takes a brief second for her to fire unlike CM puts her at a massive disadvantage against someone as fast as aang, one well timed Air current and it's coming right back in her face or just an earthbending move to shift her off balance and hit her team.

Ming's unorthodox technique makes her a bigger threat than Kuvira and P'li tbh, she just isn't holding down a bender of Aang or Korras capacity for very long. Any combination that fights Aang is made short work of Korra just has to last till he can support and even she is capable of taking down anyone on that roster for a solid majority.

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#29 anthp2000  Moderator

@cosmic_lantern: P'Li's blasts aren't as strong as CM's. Of course. By far not. But she has other things that make her far more dangerous than him.
Like you said, her blasts only take a second while his, took about 3 to 5 seconds. I don't get why you think that this helps Aang.
She can actually dodge attacks really really well. She did an air roll and doged Lin and Su's attackes simultaneously. She is agile and has refelexes.
She is an extremely skilled firebender. She completely deflected Zuko's dragon flames. And that blast was really strong. You can see it. Stronger than most firebenders' normal blasts.
She can bend her cobustion mid-air and make it change direction to hit behind shields and stuff from aside.
Personally, I find her more dangerous than CM. Power isn't everything when she has all these.

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#30  Edited By GothamCiti

R1: Villains.

R2: Avatars with difficulty.

R3: Aang should blitz Hama before she bloodbends.

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Marty2187

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#31  Edited By Marty2187

Her blasts aren't anything that Korra/Aang can't just avoid.

Whoever used that metal to block it could react just fine, and I'm sure that person doesn't have explosion timing reflexes like Korra.

And if P'Li were fighting alone, that might have even worked. Chancey, but not impossible.

You have a massive misconception about what I just said.

Firstly, you act as if the team you listed had a master for all 4. It didn't, it had 3 earthbenders (one of them, Lin, is a master, the others are just tough) and a firebender who isn't a master either.

Now if you were talking about a team such as: Tenzin, Lin, Pakku, Iroh or something like that, you would be absolutely right.

You are missing the point here - which would be that even 2 master benders or 3 top-tier benders can defeat an Avatar. Or, in other words, fight more effectively than the Avatar. The bigger the team of elite benders, the tougher they are to face and P'Li actually managed to put them on the defensive.

And the other stuff would be true if Korra/Aang was morals on, but morals off they would be fighting much more seriously, using elements in a much more confrontation way, especially Aang.

Would they start bending more than 1 element at a time? Would they actually bend 3 elements simultaneously? Because I don't recall either Avatar doing that without the Avatar State.

Also, I never said that Korra or Aang (morals off) on their own solo the team or anything like that. Not even close, I said that both of them together could win high difficulty.

So what kind of teamwork would allow them to take on 4 master benders?

For instance, Aang (morals off) would defeat Azula and Ming-Hua on his own with high difficulty, and Korra (morals off) would defeat Kuvira and Ming-Hua with high difficulty.

You are joking, right? Aang could barely handle Azula and Korra was barely handling Kuvira. Ming-Hua is a beast - add her to either equation and it might just become a stomp.

However, yes I do think Korra/Aang (morals off) would solo Lin, Su, Mako, and Bolin. Since the only master there is Lin. Mako and Bolin were soloed pretty easily by Unalaq, Su was taken out easily by Kuvira, they aren't really a threat to an Avatar especially morals off, seeing as how both Unalaq and Kuvira are opponents that were more or less Aang/Korra (morals on) level but not quite.

Then you are grossly over-estimating the Avatar. Korra would have a very tough time against any two. Aang would probably be able to hold off 3. But neither can beat all 4 at once.

False, they have agility, versatility, and overwhelming power that would put her down.

Not even close to enough. Ming is as fast and agile as any airbender. Being a waterbender goes hand in had with versatility and she has the raw power to match.

Being on a literal body of water is a much greater advantage than being on ice.

For instance, Ming-Hua on a body of water would not have one-shotted them at all when they're able to slide around like they were doing against Korra. Korra in the North Pole would take them out just fine.

They did not beat Mako and Bolin fair and square. They got the drop on them. Literally anyone could beat them if they got the drop on them. I'd wager Dai Li agents would do the same if they got the same element of surprise.

That's incorrect - for one, the twins have shown that they can slide around on ice as well. And for two, on abody of water, you have to focus on 2 things - keeping yourself afloat and attacking the enemy. On ice, you just have to focus on the attack - which has got to be easier.

And yes, they did beat Mako and Bolin fair and square because Mako saw them coming and he was the one to attack them first.

Then explain how Amon (the best bloodbender in the series) had Mako and Korra making subtle movements that allowed him to be tagged by both lightning and air. Do those not require at least a little body movement? I'm aware Korra used AS but she was moving some before that using willpower.

You didn't really address what I said correctly. If Katara was resisting (IIRC) then shouldn't Korra be able to? I mean, Korra has more raw power with water than Katara for sure.

Because Amon wasn't using a full-body blood-bending grip at the time. With blood-bending, you have to consciously restrain all body parts to stop them from moving. But if you leave any part free, any bending they can do with just those can be used. Mako had his shoulders and elbows pinned to his torso, but his hands and fingers were free to move. He didn't have the full range of motion for lightening, but he had enough. Korra had her arms restrained, but her legs were free - and she got a kick off.

Katara could resist because she had more waterbending power. She has shown herself to be a better waterbender than both Aang and Korra. Korra hasn't shown that kind of power.

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@justicethorpsylocke:

Ming-Hua one-shotted them in a location where they couldn't use the water slide move to the extent they were using it against Korra. Korra would have taken them out easy in the North Pole.

That's incorrect. They've shown the same waterslide move when they took out the plane. And you are over-estimating Korra if you think she'd have an easier time against them at the North Pole.

That's using ABC logic. For instance, Kya is nowhere near Kuvira and Azula, but she held her own against Ming-Hua. Most likely due to her using water.

What makes you think Kya is nowhere near Kuvira or Azula?

In the Catacombs I can certainly see the argument that Kuvira and Azula take them out easy, considering Azula could pull the lightning trick that Mako pulled, and also Azula is really freaking agile with how she could evade Aang and Toph, and Kuvira is better than either Lin or Suyin with tactics and applications of metal. I could see her pulling a win over P'Li by virtue of speed, tactics, and mix of offense and defense.

ABC logic wouldn't apply here. Azula comes equipped with Ming's weakness and P'Li would have a harder time dealing with small, precise and fast projectiles than big rocks. So even if you assume that Aang and Korra can beat Azula and Kuvira and Azula and Kuvira can beat Ming and P'Li - that doesn't mean Aang and Korra can beat Ming and P'Li.

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@anthp20001) Korra has a feat of breaking free of Amon's BB. The question is, if she can do it here. Full Moon Hama vs Daylight Amon's BB. Krra cannot breath fire or air while bloodbended. When Tarrlok left her for a brief moment after bloodbending, she immediately did because she couldn't before. Aang can't blow air while bloddbended either.
Korra didn't break out of Bloodbending - she had her legs free and used an air-kick.
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@cosmic_lantern:

The absolute biggest misconception here is that P'li is even a third as skilled as Azula or that her bending is as strong as CM. I've seen numerous near contact explosions that have done little to no damage. Also the fact that it takes a brief second for her to fire unlike CM puts her at a massive disadvantage against someone as fast as aang, one well timed Air current and it's coming right back in her face or just an earthbending move to shift her off balance and hit her team.
Plenty of CM's near-contact explosions ended without any damage as well. Like the one he fired at 2 ft from Sokka and the one that landed at Aang's feet just before he airbent a tornado. And the ones that Zuko and Aang blocked. P'Li is actually faster than CM at firing. She is more agile, has no problem using normal firebending and can bend her beams - all this makes her a bigger threat than CM.

Ming's unorthodox technique makes her a bigger threat than Kuvira and P'li tbh, she just isn't holding down a bender of Aang or Korras capacity for very long. Any combination that fights Aang is made short work of Korra just has to last till he can support and even she is capable of taking down anyone on that roster for a solid majority.

Agreed about Ming being more of a threat - but Kuvira was holding down Korra just fine and P'Li could but an entire group of mixed top-tier benders on the defensive. You are over-estimating Aang if you think he can make short work of even 1 person.

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justicethorpsylocke

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@marty2187:

And if P'Li were fighting alone, that might have even worked. Chancey, but not impossible.

What?????

You are missing the point here - which would be that even 2 master benders or 3 top-tier benders can defeat an Avatar. Or, in other words, fight more effectively than the Avatar. The bigger the team of elite benders, the tougher they are to face and P'Li actually managed to put them on the defensive.

I understand that. It's simply the nature of her powers being very destructive and no one having knowledge of them. Putting someone of the defensive in a show such as Avatar is not even remotely special.

Tenzin was also put on the defensive by Equalist fodder. Aang was also put on the defensive by Zhao.

Would they fight move effectively? Perhaps. Would they win in a straight up fight? Not necessarily.

Would they start bending more than 1 element at a time? Would they actually bend 3 elements simultaneously? Because I don't recall either Avatar doing that without the Avatar State.

Yes, Korra bends 2 elements together all the time. She wouldn't need to bend 3.

So what kind of teamwork would allow them to take on 4 master benders?

They are literally the same person. They are both transmigrants of Wan. Do you think you wouldn't have great teamwork with yourself?

And what teamwork would the villains have? P'Li and Ming-Hua would, but they would just separate them, Kuvira and Azula wouldn't together at all with the rest of their team.

You are joking, right? Aang could barely handle Azula and Korra was barely handling Kuvira. Ming-Hua is a beast - add her to either equation and it might just become a stomp.

Aang was highly restricted by morals. Like I said Ming-Hua wouldn't be too much against him especially morals off, considering her main advantage over most opponents is agility and Aang can contend there for days.

And Korra was only struggling against Kuvira because of the location (inside the mech) where there was no earth for Korra yet tons of metal for Kuvira (her strong suit)

Then you are grossly over-estimating the Avatar. Korra would have a very tough time against any two. Aang would probably be able to hold off 3. But neither can beat all 4 at once.

You keep missing that I say morals off. I don't think that with the morals on portrayal in the show that either Aang/Korra would solo that team, but in a hypothetical morals off scenario where they are using their abilities to the fullest, they would.

Not even close to enough. Ming is as fast and agile as any airbender. Being a waterbender goes hand in had with versatility and she has the raw power to match.

I just don't really see why not.

Loading Video...

Based on the way she performed here

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Or here

In both of these she's been highly pressured by people far below Avatars.

Mako was evading her easily and blow off her water arms, and once she got some new ones he evaded those easily until he could electrocute her.

Ming-Hua is a high tier but saying she can solo an Avatar is ridiculous.

That's incorrect - for one, the twins have shown that they can slide around on ice as well. And for two, on abody of water, you have to focus on 2 things - keeping yourself afloat and attacking the enemy. On ice, you just have to focus on the attack - which has got to be easier.

You know, I wonder if you've actually seen the fight between Korra and Desna/Eska.

You do realize that they never got a single hit on Korra and straight up stopped fighting because KORRA WAS TAKEN DOWN BY A FREAKING SPIRIT.

Desna and Eska never beat her, or even close. And you call them high tier waterbenders?

And yes, they did beat Mako and Bolin fair and square because Mako saw them coming and he was the one to attack them first.

You have to be joking, they literally had the element of surprise and caught at least one of them from behind.

Because Amon wasn't using a full-body blood-bending grip at the time. With blood-bending, you have to consciously restrain all body parts to stop them from moving. But if you leave any part free, any bending they can do with just those can be used. Mako had his shoulders and elbows pinned to his torso, but his hands and fingers were free to move. He didn't have the full range of motion for lightening, but he had enough. Korra had her arms restrained, but her legs were free - and she got a kick off.

Then why is Hama going to do better?

Katara could resist because she had more waterbending power. She has shown herself to be a better waterbender than both Aang and Korra. Korra hasn't shown that kind of power.

No Caption Provided

And Korra has more waterbending power than any of them.

So thank you for conceding that Korra can break out of Hama's bloodbending. Right there, that's how Aang and Korra win round 3, a 2v1.

That's incorrect. They've shown the same waterslide move when they took out the plane. And you are over-estimating Korra if you think she'd have an easier time against them at the North Pole.

You mean even tho she kept them from getting a single hit on the water even though she was running away and not trying to fight?

If she fought them at the North Pole she could have done something like her tsunami move seeing as how Desna/Eska together did a massive ice attack against Ming-Hua there.

She would also be able to use air and fire much more effectively with a solid ground to do stances on, which is an important part of bending.

So yes, Korra beats them easily in the North Pole.

What makes you think Kya is nowhere near Kuvira or Azula?

Kuvira is a high tier who has held her own against Korra, defeated Su easily, is recognized as a prodigy.

Azula is a high tier who has contended with nearly every high tier in ATLA including Aang, Katara, Zuko, Toph, etc., and is recognized as a prodigy.

Kya was stomped by Zaheer who would struggle with Kuvira and Azula.

ABC logic wouldn't apply here. Azula comes equipped with Ming's weakness and P'Li would have a harder time dealing with small, precise and fast projectiles than big rocks. So even if you assume that Aang and Korra can beat Azula and Kuvira and Azula and Kuvira can beat Ming and P'Li - that doesn't mean Aang and Korra can beat Ming and P'Li.

You would normally be right, but Aang and Korra would easily win that fight still (against Ming-Hua and P'Li) and I'm more than willing to CaV you on that.

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justicethorpsylocke

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@anthp2000:

Fight at Omashu: Azula would beat Aang if Bumi hadn't blocked the attack. P'Li one shoots Aang and Bumi in that cage while destroying half of the slides.

Aang wasn't as experienced then. I don't think that would have happened to EoS Aang.

Fight at Tu Zin: Azula humiliated Zuko and was ready to kill an exhausted Aang. P'Li one shoots Zuko and murders Aang

Emphasis on exhausted.

Fight at the Drill: Azula KOed Aang after a good fight of trading strikes and creating shields. P'Li one shoots Aang and his rock shield once again

She didn't KO Aang. She won after he made dumb decisions with earth mainly due to morals. IIRC Azula ended up KOed by the end of that.

Fight at the Crystal Catacombs: Azula one shot Aang in a short clash. P'Li murders Aang once again

Again, Aang making a dumb decision with other elements. I'm sure that if he didn't have morals he'd have just unleashed with air. Not to mention P'Li wouldn't one shot him, seeing as multiple characters have survived being shot point blank by P'Li.

Fight at Zaofu: Kuvira humiliated an out of shape Korra. Give Ming Hua a descent water source and she would do the same

Emphasis on out of shape. An in-shape Korra beat Kuvira in a location that suited Kuvira and Ming-Hua doesn't have the feats to beat Korra in shape.

Battle at the Mech: That's like putting Ming Hua and Korra in a lake to fight. They would go toe to toe just like them

There's no water in the mech, Korra would murder her.

3) Tenzin didn't redirect anything. He blocked P'Li's blasts. Can Aang do it? Sure. Can he take her out easily esspecially when she is fighting on a team with other masters? Certainly not.

I'm confused, are you saying the villains win round 2? Because as the OP you shouldn't make the rounds with a winner in mind.

4) Ming Hu and P'Li have feats that suggest they are just as dangerous / good as Azula and Kuvira. Ming Hua is just as agile and has just as good raw power as Azula. The only reason Azula would win between then is because of elemental advantages. P'Li is as dangerous as Kuvira if not more.

I don't agree. Kuvira and Azula have better track records.

5) Desna, Eska, Kya and Tonraq are mid to top tier waterbenders. If not top. Beating them easily, only proves that Ming is top tier herself.

Ming-Hua is indeed high tier waterbending, as she beat mid tier waterbenders easily (some easier than others). I haven't argued against that.

6) It always took at least 2 people and some cover in order to take out P'Li. So saying that she only took out fodder is lowballing.

I mean, she never really beat an impressive fighter one-on-one. Not to say there aren't decent fighters she can take on, but there hasn't been a fight where she's really shined. Most of her feats involve teamwork with other Red Lotus members.

The way I see it, if Lin and Su can kill P'Li together, Aang or Korra alone can.

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@justicethorpsylocke:

The North Pole isn't any worse than the ocean. And the twins did get a hit on Korra

Ming Hua could also use the water arms that Katara used to beat Azula

Kuvira isn't better than Lin and Su combined, and that's what it took to beat P'li

Kuvira didn't beat Su easily, they were fairly evenly matched with Kuvira using her gear to get an upper hand

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@arcus1:

The North Pole isn't any worse than the ocean. And the twins did get a hit on Korra

Not worse, but being able to do that water slide thing helped and even then they weren't beating her at all.

Ming Hua could also use the water arms that Katara used to beat Azula

Did Katara beat Azula?

Kuvira isn't better than Lin and Su combined, and that's what it took to beat P'li

That's true, but I think Kuvira with her combination of offense and defense mastery that the sisters lack could beat P'Li, personally.

Kuvira didn't beat Su easily, they were fairly evenly matched with Kuvira using her gear to get an upper hand

That's fair. But still, you can tell the difference between how Kuvira beat Su and Kuvira losing to Korra, the difference in how lose fights were playing out. Point is Su isn't on the level to be a threat to an Avatar.

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#39 anthp2000  Moderator

@justicethorpsylocke said:

Aang wasn't as experienced then. I don't think that would have happened to EoS Aang.

That's not the point. Azula still won and Bumi had to interfere to save Aang. P'Li would do just as well.That's my point. I'm replying to those saying that P'Li wouldn't hold her own against Aang like Azula did.

Emphasis on exhausted.

Again, that's not the point. I am bring up this battles to say that P'Li would be as much of a threat as Azula.

She didn't KO Aang. She won after he made dumb decisions with earth mainly due to morals. IIRC Azula ended up KOed by the end of that.

At the drill, Azula clearly KOed Aang. She had him unconscious (that's KO) and she would have killed him if serious. She just took the time to enjoy the moment. Of course a morals off Aang beats Azula. Easily. But he didn't KO her here. She blasted her away but she was still on her feet. She won every battle she was in against him actually. But that's still not the point.

Again, Aang making a dumb decision with other elements. I'm sure that if he didn't have morals he'd have just unleashed with air. Not to mention P'Li wouldn't one shot him, seeing as multiple characters have survived being shot point blank by P'Li.

Morals don't make him more stupid. They make him hold back. Bad usage of powers still stays with morals off. But that's again not the point. I never said that Azula beats a serious Aang. I just bring these battles up, to say that P'Li would be just as much of trouble. No bender has survived P'Li without shield. If Azula KOed Aang in that crystal thing, it would be just as easy for Combustion.

Emphasis on out of shape. An in-shape Korra beat Kuvira in a location that suited Kuvira and Ming-Hua doesn't have the feats to beat Korra in shape.

Still, not debating for Kuvira or Azula vs the Avatars. I don't debate for any team. I'm just saying that Ming Hua in a lake would do just as well as Kuvira in a mech. And they were actually toe to toe on the mech with Kuvira.

There's no water in the mech, Korra would murder her.

That's why I said that Kuvira in a metal mech, is like Ming Hua in a lake. Kuvira within a metalic environment and Ming Hua in a water environment.

I don't agree. Kuvira and Azula have better track records.

Of course sane Azula has a better track record. She won every battle she was in except for a couple of stalemates and the one time a moon amped Katara had the upper hand against her. Kuvira won 3 battles. Ming Hua and P'Li have just as good track record.

I'm confused, are you saying the villains win round 2? Because as the OP you shouldn't make the rounds with a winner in mind.

I'm not supporting any team and I'm not saying that the villains win. I just said that even if he can take P'Li here, it wouldn't be easy like some people claimed.

The way I see it, if Lin and Su can kill P'Li together, Aang or Korra alone can.

I know they can. That's why I put 3 other masters along with her.

I mean, she never really beat an impressive fighter one-on-one. Not to say there aren't decent fighters she can take on, but there hasn't been a fight where she's really shined. Most of her feats involve teamwork with other Red Lotus members.

Neither has Ozai. But his showings state that he can beat top-tier fighters. That's the case with P'Li and Ming Hua to an extent. She doesn't need to be put against someone more impressive to suggest that she can beat someone more impressive. Her showings prove it. When at least 2 people together (some of them masters) along with the help of fodder, still struggle on beating you, it is impressive.

I'm not debating. I just stated a coulpe of things to help you guys make your decisions. The whole message wasn't meant for you. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was reffering to the many things stated and I didn't give an opinion. I just stated some facts without personal views.

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#40  Edited By Marty2187

@justicethorpsylocke:

What?????

Constantly dodging P'Li and attacking back hoping to get a lucky shot in is a difficult proposition even if the Avatar was facing her alone. And here, P'Li won't be alone.

I understand that. It's simply the nature of her powers being very destructive and no one having knowledge of them. Putting someone of the defensive in a show such as Avatar is not even remotely special.

Tenzin was also put on the defensive by Equalist fodder. Aang was also put on the defensive by Zhao.

Would they fight move effectively? Perhaps. Would they win in a straight up fight? Not necessarily.

Aang wasn't put on defensive by Zhao, he simply chose not to counter-attack. And when was Tenzing put on defensive by equalist fodder? Mecha tanks don't count here.

But the point here is even multiple fodder acting in concert can give a master bender more than enough trouble. A couple of top-tier fighters acting together can actually take down a master.

Yes, Korra bends 2 elements together all the time. She wouldn't need to bend 3.

No, she doesn't. Less than 5% of her moves have her bending more than 1 element at a time. Can you list all the times she was bending 2 elements without the Avatar State? Bet you that number is less than 10.

They are literally the same person. They are both transmigrants of Wan. Do you think you wouldn't have great teamwork with yourself?

You can't have teamwork with yourself. You are just one bender limited to making one move at a time. Teamwork with multiple people gives the advantage of making multiple attacks and defenses simultaneously.

And what teamwork would the villains have? P'Li and Ming-Hua would, but they would just separate them, Kuvira and Azula wouldn't together at all with the rest of their team.

You can assume good teamwork on both sides, if it helps your case. But then, you'd have to assume Korra and Aang would fight together and come up with a winnable strategy. If they are separated and taking their enemies on their own, then that's not teamwork.

Aang was highly restricted by morals. Like I said Ming-Hua wouldn't be too much against him especially morals off, considering her main advantage over most opponents is agility and Aang can contend there for days.

And Korra was only struggling against Kuvira because of the location (inside the mech) where there was no earth for Korra yet tons of metal for Kuvira (her strong suit)

"Contending there for days" is the point. Given Aang's agility and speed, he should be able to dodge Ming's attacks indefinitely. But given Ming's agility and speed - which is on par with any airbender - she should also be able to dodge Aang's attacks. Which is why Aang would have plenty of trouble against her.

Korra was a metal bender herself and she had fire and air. So the excuse that she had limited element doesn't work.

You keep missing that I say morals off. I don't think that with the morals on portrayal in the show that either Aang/Korra would solo that team, but in a hypothetical morals off scenario where they are using their abilities to the fullest, they would.

I'm not missing it, I'm saying that its not that relevant. "Morals off" doesn't mean they suddenly become capable of using their abilities to the fullest, it means they won't hesitate to take a lethal shot or show mercy to a downed enemy. If Azula is a superior firebender to Aang with morals on, then she remains a superior firebender to aang with morals off. You keep acting as if morals off Aang would stop using earth-defenses, but using earth-defense has nothing to do with morality. Its about how confident he feels about that move and morals don't change that.

In both of these she's been highly pressured by people far below Avatars.

Mako was evading her easily and blow off her water arms, and once she got some new ones he evaded those easily until he could electrocute her.

Ming-Hua is a high tier but saying she can solo an Avatar is ridiculous.

Highly pressured? Did you even watch those fights. Kya was the one under pressure - only 1 attack of hers connected and even that was redirected back at her.

As for Mako - that's exactly what I've been saying all along. To beat Ming, you either need an environmental advantage (lack of water) or a weakness advantage (lightening) and the Avatars have neither. Ming Hua is easily a water-bending master - definitely above either avatar in terms of waterbending and maybe even above Pakku and Katara. I mean, have you ever seen anyone waterbend without moving their arms?

You know, I wonder if you've actually seen the fight between Korra and Desna/Eska.

You do realize that they never got a single hit on Korra and straight up stopped fighting because KORRA WAS TAKEN DOWN BY A FREAKING SPIRIT.

Desna and Eska never beat her, or even close. And you call them high tier waterbenders?

You need to watch that fight again. Korra got 1 hit in when she destroyed their boats. Eska got one in when she destroyed Korra's boat. Then they dodged each other for a while with Korra using the waterspout. Eska got one solid hit on Korra which knocked her off the waterspout and Korra used airbending to recover. Korra used a big waterbending move that they were both countering - that's when they saw the spirit and backed off. Korra was the one who never landed a direct hit on either of them, whereas Eska got one on her fair and square.

You have to be joking, they literally had the element of surprise and caught at least one of them from behind.

Seriously, you need to watch that fight again. Mako saw them at Misty Palms long before they saw him. He was able to get Asami to take Korra and Naga and run. Ming tried attacking Asami and that's when Mako attacked her, which Ming blocked.

Then why is Hama going to do better?

Because unlike Amon, she doesn't hate bending and using bloodbending to actually move her victims - make them swing their arms and walk - is part of her MO. Amon just used it to restrain people.

And Korra has more waterbending power than any of them.

Whatever makes you think that? Korra has never pulled out water out of plants or thin air. What makes you think that either Katara or Hama are incapable of a move like that or more.

You mean even tho she kept them from getting a single hit on the water even though she was running away and not trying to fight?

I mean she couldn't keep them from getting a hit in.

If she fought them at the North Pole she could have done something like her tsunami move seeing as how Desna/Eska together did a massive ice attack against Ming-Hua there.

She would also be able to use air and fire much more effectively with a solid ground to do stances on, which is an important part of bending.

Eska and Desna would have the same advantage - using massive ice-attacks, having solid ground for stances. Bottom line, she wouldn't be able to one-shot them like Ming.

Kuvira is a high tier who has held her own against Korra, defeated Su easily, is recognized as a prodigy.

Azula is a high tier who has contended with nearly every high tier in ATLA including Aang, Katara, Zuko, Toph, etc., and is recognized as a prodigy.

Both Kuvira and Azula are masters - that's above high-tier.

Kya was stomped by Zaheer who would struggle with Kuvira and Azula.

Kya wasn't stomped - she put up a great fight. And no, Zaheer would do pretty well against either Kuvira or Azula.

You would normally be right, but Aang and Korra would easily win that fight still (against Ming-Hua and P'Li) and I'm more than willing to CaV you on that.

Aang and Korra vs Ming-Hua and P'Li? They could win - I'll grant you that. But it certainly won't be easy. Can you actually CaV about how easily someone wins a fight? Not about who would win but by what margin?

She won after he made dumb decisions with earth mainly due to morals.

Why do you think the earth-shield was because of morals?

The way I see it, if Lin and Su can kill P'Li together, Aang or Korra alone can.

And this is where you ignore the point of teamwork.

There is a whole lot of advantage to being in a team that even the Avatar with 4-elements doesn't have. You can get off multiple attacks from different directions which makes it that much harder to dodge or block. The Avatar would be limited to making 1 or 2 attacks at a time from a single direction - much easier to defend. One team member can handle the defense, while the other focuses on attack - whereas the Avatar has to focus on both. Once can act as distraction while the other uses sneak-attacks - whereas in one-on-one, the opponent would be focused on just the 1 attacker.

Its much easier to kill someone as part of a team than it is to do it alone even if you have all the skills of the team. And if P'Li can manage to put a whole team on the defensive, a single bender is going to have that much of a harder time against her.

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Cosmic_Lantern

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#41  Edited By Cosmic_Lantern

@anthp2000 said:

@cosmic_lantern: P'Li's blasts aren't as strong as CM's. Of course. By far not. But she has other things that make her far more dangerous than him.

Like you said, her blasts only take a second while his, took about 3 to 5 seconds. I don't get why you think that this helps Aang.

To be fair CM had the distance advantage most of the fight also he did fire in shorter intervals than 3 seconds some even seemed simultaneous or just after the other. Whilst P'li always has a short pause which Aang could easily capitilize on with his best Element, if Su was able to counter it mid-fire he can as well.

She can actually dodge attacks really really well. She did an air roll and doged Lin and Su's attackes simultaneously. She is agile and has refelexes.

Non-jobbing I'd put Su or Lin over P'li with high diff, it's just the way the beifong sisters fight.....its sexy tbh. If their actually aiming to kill her by any means I can't see how they don't take it 6-7/10.

She is an extremely skilled firebender. She completely deflected Zuko's dragon flames. And that blast was really strong. You can see it. Stronger than most firebenders' normal blasts.

She is a skilled firebender to be able to use combustion at all, im not discrediting her I just don't think she'll be able to do much to either of these guys with a direct approach. She could work from a distance to provide support but aang has Long range air blasts as well.

She can bend her cobustion mid-air and make it change direction to hit behind shields and stuff from aside.

Then instead of making a wall he gets her off balance and makes her hit her teammates with a pointblank small AoE which probably takes out two of them off the bat.

Personally, I find her more dangerous than CM. Power isn't everything when she has all these.

In a sense yes in CQC she does seem more effective.

@marty2187 said:

@cosmic_lantern:

Plenty of CM's near-contact explosions ended without any damage as well. Like the one he fired at 2 ft from Sokka and the one that landed at Aang's feet just before he airbent a tornado. And the ones that Zuko and Aang blocked. P'Li is actually faster than CM at firing. She is more agile, has no problem using normal firebending and can bend her beams - all this makes her a bigger threat than CM.

So you're saying the Gaang that stalemated these monstrous explosions are a testament to prove it happened without damage? Nothing landed '2 ft away from sokka' that's laughable, and even then look what happens:

Loading Video...

Heres the first encounter where he snipes them:

Loading Video...

Heres the full encounter so no funny business occurs, we clearly see Aang delfecting one point blank with easy also:

Loading Video...

Agreed about Ming being more of a threat - but Kuvira was holding down Korra just fine and P'Li could but an entire group of mixed top-tier benders on the defensive. You are over-estimating Aang if you think he can make short work of even 1 person.

P'li is mince meat, Kuvira gets utterly swept on which the level Aang fights on her technique is simply outclassed by the more agile heavy hitter. Azula is the only one keeping his attention for a minute but he's dealt with way worse against Ozai, not to mention his comic feats add a bit more onto an already sound victory. Ming with this level of water is going to be the wild card, but she has a track record to losing to some pretty average people also, kya was able to get the advantage over her. The toughest combination of Kuvira/Azula can't beat Aang for more than 3(Maybe 4)/10, it's pretty evident that he's a problem once he gets going.

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Marty2187

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@arcus1:

The North Pole isn't any worse than the ocean. And the twins did get a hit on Korra

Not worse, but being able to do that water slide thing helped and even then they weren't beating her at all.

Ming Hua could also use the water arms that Katara used to beat Azula

Did Katara beat Azula?

Kuvira isn't better than Lin and Su combined, and that's what it took to beat P'li

That's true, but I think Kuvira with her combination of offense and defense mastery that the sisters lack could beat P'Li, personally.

Kuvira didn't beat Su easily, they were fairly evenly matched with Kuvira using her gear to get an upper hand

That's fair. But still, you can tell the difference between how Kuvira beat Su and Kuvira losing to Korra, the difference in how lose fights were playing out. Point is Su isn't on the level to be a threat to an Avatar.

You are missing the whole point here - None of these individual matchups are an easy victory for either side. Even if the twins would've eventually lost against Korra, it'd still have been a hell of a fight for her. As it was for Katara against Azula. Same goes for Kuvira vs P'Li - even if Kuvira manages to take her out using well-aimed shots, it'd still be a very tough fight. Even Su could last a very long time against an Avatar.

That's pretty much how it works on the show - even if Character A is just a high-tier bender and Character B is master-level or above, it still doesn't mean B can just stomp A. Only a couple of fights have just ended in a stomp - Katara vs Zuko, Ming-Hua vs Twins, Toph vs Korra, Azula vs Zuko, anyone vs bloodbender etc. Even Bumi was able to keep Ghazan busy for quite some time despite being obviously outclassed.

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Marty2187

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@cosmic_lantern:

So you're saying the Gaang that stalemated these monstrous explosions are a testament to prove it happened without damage? Nothing landed '2 ft away from sokka' that's laughable, and even then look what happens:

Take a look at this:

That's barely 2 ft away.

Heres the full encounter so no funny business occurs, we clearly see Aang delfecting one point blank with easy also:

You know there is a difference between deflecting and blocking, right?

P'li is mince meat, Kuvira gets utterly swept on which the level Aang fights on her technique is simply outclassed by the more agile heavy hitter. Azula is the only one keeping his attention for a minute but he's dealt with way worse against Ozai, not to mention his comic feats add a bit more onto an already sound victory. Ming with this level of water is going to be the wild card, but she has a track record to losing to some pretty average people also, kya was able to get the advantage over her. The toughest combination of Kuvira/Azula can't beat Aang for more than 3(Maybe 4)/10, it's pretty evident that he's a problem once he gets going.

P'Li actually has better control over combustion bending and she uses firebending - she is a bigger threat than Combustion Man. And Kuvira is much more of a threat because she is an agile, precise-hitter. Azula can actually stalemate Aang for quite a while. As for Ming's "track record" - what are you talking about? She was beaten by just 1 person and that was because of environmental/weakness advantage which Aang or Korra don't have. Kya had just 1 moment's advantage which was quickly turned around - she remained at a disadvantage for the majority of the fight.

Toughest combination of Azula/Kuvira actually wins against Aang 8-9/10 because they both have the speed and reflexes to keep up with him.

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@arcus1:

The North Pole isn't any worse than the ocean. And the twins did get a hit on Korra

Not worse, but being able to do that water slide thing helped and even then they weren't beating her at all.

Ming Hua could also use the water arms that Katara used to beat Azula

Did Katara beat Azula?

Kuvira isn't better than Lin and Su combined, and that's what it took to beat P'li

That's true, but I think Kuvira with her combination of offense and defense mastery that the sisters lack could beat P'Li, personally.

Kuvira didn't beat Su easily, they were fairly evenly matched with Kuvira using her gear to get an upper hand

That's fair. But still, you can tell the difference between how Kuvira beat Su and Kuvira losing to Korra, the difference in how lose fights were playing out. Point is Su isn't on the level to be a threat to an Avatar.

They can do the water slide in the north pole. No, they weren't beating her, but they still put up enough of a fight to register as a threat, so saying Ming Hua is a non-factor when she one-shotted the two isn't fair

I mean, she had her snared by the water arms, and Zuko had to come rescue her. Whether you count that as a win or not, she clearly had the upper hand

I don't see how she could without some environment that's significantly advantageous. P'li would put her on the defensive almost immediately, pin her down, and beat her. Maybe in some environments, with tons of cover, Kuvira could maybe cheapshot her, but in a straight up fight P'li is going to win. Her offense is just so much stronger and harder to avoid, Kuvira won't be able to mount the necessary offense because she'll be too busy trying to stay alive

I don't think it's that different. Kuvira was a threat to Korra because the fight took place in a metal room, denying Korra her best element (waterbending), as well as restricting standard earthbending (which Korra is better at than waterbending). In the same environment, I could easily see Su putting up a similar fight

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justicethorpsylocke

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@marty2187: Okay dude this is getting way too off-topic and complicated. But I'll say this: the reason I give Aang and Korra the win in round 2 is morals off. In round 1, where both of them will fight as they normally do, Azula, Ming-Hua, and Kuvira win with moderate difficulty. I've already said that. Without morals, with them fighting without the restraints they normally have (especially Aang) I think they would win with extreme difficulty. I don't think it's a stomp by any means, but I think a morals off Avatar would edge that out just a bit. Granted, it's speculation, but there's nothing wrong with that, and if there were it wouldn't be okay to have "morals off" as one of the conditions listed in the OP for rounds 2 and 3.

About the CaV, it would be about who wins, not the difficulty to which someone wins. That would be dumb. Aang and Korra vs Ming-Hua and P'Li: totally okay with doing that if you want. If we do that, should it be morals off or morals on.

I just don't want to continue this argument because we keep opening cans of worms that simply come down to opinion or semantics, so it would be better to just drop it but continue in a formal debate.

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justicethorpsylocke

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@anthp2000: My point was that the Aang being referred to by you in the OP is EoS Aang, yes? Then we should go by a well-rested, EoS Aang, who is morals off in Rounds 2 and 3. THAT Aang should do the things I said he would. In Round 1 however Aang would go down due to Azula already contending with him and Ming-Hua's help meaning a stomp.

Morals don't make him stupid, but they make him fight in ways that won't hurt his opponent too much. Without morals I see Aang using air much more with high aggression and speed. For instance, in real life with morals in a fist fight, you might try to use grabs, holds, body slams, things that usually won't do much damage but can stop your opponent. Morals off you'll be fighting dirty and fighting much harder and more aggressively. Same with Aang/Korra in their bending. The villains don't have morals to begin with, so that only helps Aang/Korra.

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#47  Edited By anthp2000  Moderator

@justicethorpsylocke said:

@anthp2000: My point was that the Aang being referred to by you in the OP is EoS Aang, yes? Then we should go by a well-rested, EoS Aang, who is morals off in Rounds 2 and 3. THAT Aang should do the things I said he would. In Round 1 however Aang would go down due to Azula already contending with him and Ming-Hua's help meaning a stomp.

Morals don't make him stupid, but they make him fight in ways that won't hurt his opponent too much. Without morals I see Aang using air much more with high aggression and speed. For instance, in real life with morals in a fist fight, you might try to use grabs, holds, body slams, things that usually won't do much damage but can stop your opponent. Morals off you'll be fighting dirty and fighting much harder and more aggressively. Same with Aang/Korra in their bending. The villains don't have morals to begin with, so that only helps Aang/Korra.

Agreed.

And that's why I added P'Li to the group. Cause morals obvously help th Avatars only. However, I'm not sure if Aang will use more airbending because of morals being off. I don't know if he acts like that because of morals or beause of being a little "dumb" sometimes. I know that he will use everything much more effectively, sure. And of course he can take ALMOST anyone in the AvatarsVerse with morals off 1v1.

Yeah, that's solved.

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@justicethorpsylocke:

Without morals, with them fighting without the restraints they normally have (especially Aang) I think they would win with extreme difficulty. I don't think it's a stomp by any means, but I think a morals off Avatar would edge that out just a bit. Granted, it's speculation, but there's nothing wrong with that, and if there were it wouldn't be okay to have "morals off" as one of the conditions listed in the OP for rounds 2 and 3.

"Morals on/off" would have a very narrow and specific application here. Most of the fights in Avatar verse, morals are off by default. The kind of moves they throw at each-other can easily kill their opponent if they hit right. There are only a few critical moments where morals on/off becomes relevant. Here there is an obvious question as to whether Aang would redirect Azula's lightening and use that to kill Ming Hua? Or if Korra would raise a wall 2 ft away from P'Li and use that to blow her up or anyone beside her? Or if Korra, being a metal bender, simply drags Kuvira in P'Li's path? Or, more simply, if they happen to trip or knock down an enemy, would they keep attacking or focus on someone else? The morals on/off condition is relevant when considering questions like these. It does not actually affect the fighting style. For example, airbending is primarily a defensive fighting style by its very nature. Aang can't just turn it into an offensive style just by flipping his morality switch.

About the CaV, it would be about who wins, not the difficulty to which someone wins. That would be dumb. Aang and Korra vs Ming-Hua and P'Li: totally okay with doing that if you want. If we do that, should it be morals off or morals on.

But I already accept that its possible of Aang and Korra to win - so what would we be debating? The whole point is that if Aang and Korra just barely win against Ming and P'Li - even with morals off - then adding two other master benders would definitely tip the scales.

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Take a look at this:

That's barely 2 ft away.

One example compared to the many P'li has? Even then this one is Iffy at best, one can argue Aang clearly did something to save sokka there.

You know there is a difference between deflecting and blocking, right?

Yup, which is why he deflected it and was sent flying afterwards.

P'Li actually has better control over combustion bending and she uses firebending - she is a bigger threat than Combustion Man.

This has already been assessed, with no morals aang blows the explosion back into her face. Her regular firebending is near featless and average when shown.

And Kuvira is much more of a threat because she is an agile, precise-hitter.

Which means a whopping 0 since aang is more agile and hits way more harder.

Azula can actually stalemate Aang for quite a while.

Yup, she's their saving grace as to why Aang doesn't sweep.

As for Ming's "track record" - what are you talking about? She was beaten by just 1 person and that was because of environmental/weakness advantage which Aang or Korra don't have. Kya had just 1 moment's advantage which was quickly turned around - she remained at a disadvantage for the majority of the fight.

She also died at the hands of Mako, an above average bender who had the upper hand the entire fight. Ming isn't beating either of them with morals off but she is a particular problem with that much water available, Aang redirects Azulas lightning to oneshot her pretty quickly.

Toughest combination of Azula/Kuvira actually wins against Aang 8-9/10 because they both have the speed and reflexes to keep up with him.

With morals off? Even with morals on they don't take him no more than 6/10 and even so it's arguable. Aang stomps them with no morals, he kills Kuvira with lightning redirection off the bat.

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@marty2187:

"Morals on/off" would have a very narrow and specific application here. Most of the fights in Avatar verse, morals are off by default. The kind of moves they throw at each-other can easily kill their opponent if they hit right. There are only a few critical moments where morals on/off becomes relevant. Here there is an obvious question as to whether Aang would redirect Azula's lightening and use that to kill Ming Hua? Or if Korra would raise a wall 2 ft away from P'Li and use that to blow her up or anyone beside her? Or if Korra, being a metal bender, simply drags Kuvira in P'Li's path? Or, more simply, if they happen to trip or knock down an enemy, would they keep attacking or focus on someone else? The morals on/off condition is relevant when considering questions like these. It does not actually affect the fighting style. For example, airbending is primarily a defensive fighting style by its very nature. Aang can't just turn it into an offensive style just by flipping his morality switch.

Not really. Avatar characters have good enough durability to survive most of those attacks. For instance, Aang has been knocked around in ways that would kill a normal human. Even Sokka was shunted upward by a massive earth column and was fine.

Airbending is surely defensive by nature, but it definitely has offensive applications, and Aang has used them to destroy giant stone projectiles. If he used those applications more aggressively, he'd be a lot more dangerous, and that's what morals off would do.

And those things you listed that Aang and Korra morals off would do basically prove what I was trying to say. They'll do things like that morals off, they have the power and skill to do so.

But I already accept that its possible of Aang and Korra to win - so what would we be debating? The whole point is that if Aang and Korra just barely win against Ming and P'Li - even with morals off - then adding two other master benders would definitely tip the scales.

I recall you saying that P'Li or Ming-Hua could beat either Aang or Korra in a straight fight.