Apocalypse (X-Men) vs Human Torch
@koays: Johnny is faster in a race. In a fight he's not much faster
Yes he is much faster. He's reacted to and tagged Silver Surfer on two occasions. Melted rocks thrown by Speed Demon, melted bullets while not even flamed on after they've been fired, reacted to a sneak attack from Nightcrawler etc
He's pretty fast and manuverable in the air too, Having tons of feats where he dodges lasers
Questprobe #3
Remember all the times that Johnny atomized someone? Cuz I don't
You really don't think Johnny will atomize someone if he's morals off? Even though he's done things like melt the insides of Ultron's body? Apocalypse is no where near as durable as Ultron either.
Secret Wars #8
Do you remember all those times Apocalypse had heat resistance feats on Johnny's level? Because I don't.
Koays' knowledge of the source material >>>>>>>>> then OOC Respect Threads. He's laughed at Quicksilver for trying to blitz him and grabbed and owned Loki who reacts far faster.
Apocalypse had also been tagged by Thor, Jane Foster, Cyclops etc saying he's consistently faster than Quicksilver is cherrypicking. Even Apocalypse's biggest fans on CV don't argue this. He didn't own Loki either, all he did was knock him into a machine which started draining Loki and then Loki left.
Apocalypses Shields and TK mean if Johnny stops for a second he's dead....its telekinesis, you cant just dodge it because you can't see it.
How strong is Apocalypse's shields? The OP has stated that neither participants can use internal attacks so I don't see how Telekinesis is going to be useful here. Regardless, I've already shown Torch taking hits from people stronger than Apocalypse so he can afford to take hits from him.
Torch is still faster on the draw so he'll tag Apocalypse before he gets tagged too. Considering he's morals off, he'll go nova on Apocalypse straight away.
Apocalypse has TP and has repeatedly used it offensively on more then one occasion.....that's like saying he doesn't have energy blast because he didn't use it in his last appearance.
When? citations please.
He doesn't need to dodge torch because he's already a tank and he'll just regenerate when he is damaged.
How is a tank? He admitted he couldn't take much more of Cyclops blasts and doesn't really have any feats that would suggests he has solid high tier durability. He has never taken anything near the level of heat Johnny can produce so we shouldn't just assume he can regenerate from it no problem. It's like saying Electro can absorb Thor's lighting even though he's never absorbed anything near that level before.
Cable isn't fodder, you just don't seem to know anything about the character. That's OK though... Cable fought Apocalypse and nearly beat him AFTER amplifying all of his psi power through the psimitar. .....as you've already stated Cable as a BABY had enough power to amp Apocalypse to the point he could ignore Blackbolts scream and Cyclops blast.
Compared to Torch, Cable is fodder. He's a low mid tier. Are you seriously implying that Baby Cable > Black Bolt? Just because the energies of Cable gave Apocalypse a huge boost doesn't mean Cable is more powerful than Black Bolt. Apocalypse stated one time that the energies from the Hulk could give him power on Celestial level, but nobody in their right mind is going to say that Hulk is Celestial level.
Also the only time Cyclops was able to damage Apocalypse, was when amped by the power of Jean and baby Cable....power which as we've BOTH said allowed Apocalypse to ignore screams from Blackbolt.
That's the not the instance I was talking about. The one you're referring to is the same arc with Baby Cable and Black Bolt, correct? Pretty sure Cyclops wasn't amped in the instance where Apocalypse admitted he couldn't take much of of Scott's blasts.
There's a difference between Higher Evolutionary getting blasted and being harmed but not grunting....and Apocalypse getting blasted and flexing like he's Hulk Hogan while talking about how strong he is
This is headcanon and a cop out. Apocalypse has been hurt before and grunted out in pain just fine. If High Evolutionary isn't like ''Hulk Hogan'' then why didn't he grunt out in pain?
Stryfe.....is ass. But mostly because he's a jobber. As far as attack potency he's a molecular level telekinetic with the power to bust a large chunk of a city and overload Omega level mutants
Omega level mutants is a fairly meaningless term that applies to people like Storm and Iceman who aren't good featwise. Stryfe is also a low mid tier so I don't care if Apocalypse stomped him, its not impressive. Johnny has statements like having the power of a dying star and was stated to have power capable of destroying a small moon.
Fantastic Four #289
All of the people that Johnny has hurt have been harmed by people that Apocalypse has no sold.....
Are you seriously implying that Apocalypse is massively above guys like Terrax, Silver Surfer, Blastaar, Savage Hulk, Thing etc if we want to play that game, Cyclops nearly solo'd Apocalypse whereas he couldn't hurt Thing or She Thing (while Torch managed to hurt Ben on a few occasions) Apocalypse has ran away from Namor and even got stalemated by mid tiers like Mr Sinister. Human Torch still stomps. He's faster, way more powerful and is durable enough to contend.
@noobmaster2001: He's faster, way more powerful and is durable enough to contend.
Torch is faster in travel speed and that's it, what quantifiable combat speed feats does Torch have on Nur's level.
Torch will find out that combat speed is irrelevant when used against Nur.
Powerful is a subjective term as he can cause more collateral damage wise while Nur has more pinpoint damage, Torch can't hurt or kill Thor but Nur can as he is built for it plus everyone Torch has hurt, Nur could easily replicate.
After reading Noobmaster's argument Johnny should be able to take this
@comic_book_fan: se this is silly johnny's nova blast likely wouldn't be enough
It's stated to have the power of an exploding star, exploding sun, dying star and has multiple feats of hurting characters on Apocalypse's tier or higher. It's going to be more than enough.
to put him down he has taken black bolt's voice
He was amped by the energies of Baby Cable when he did that. I've stated this above.
and broke one of sue's shields
He never broke Invisible woman's shields, all he did was blast it and it didn't break.
and no namor isn't stronger than Apocalypse colossus would make namor struggle
Yes Namor is stronger than Apocalypse, nevermind the fact Apocalypse ran away from him when they fought, Namor has tons of instances with solid high tiers over the years and has had long fought out brawls with them. People like Savage Hulk, Red Hulk, Thing, Abomination, Sentry etc.
Colossus wouldn't really give Namor any problems, he's consistently a mid tier brick and Namor shouldn't have any problems with him.
Apocalypse oneshotted him
When? citation please. Even if he did, this doesn't really impress me. Morals off Human Torch incinerated Colossus's clone ( Wolverine, Jean Grey and Cyclop's too) and in Infinity War and the clones were shown to be comparable to the originals in that arc too.
Fantastic Four #368
throw in his TK and other powers would end this before johnny would even get to this point
He doesn't really use his other abilities (not that there's anything to really talk about) and the OP has specified no internal attacks which is really the only use I can think of when thinking about his TK.
Even if you argue Apocalypse can one-shot, Johnny is much faster and much more powerful overall.
After reading Noobmaster's argument Johnny should be able to take this
Thanks very much! Really appreciate you taking the time to read it.
@noobmaster2001: Though the votes don't reflect it, I think you made a great case for Johnny.
As for the BB scream thing, he was also amped by the O5 X-Men there
Do you recall where it was mentioned/implied that Apoc was also being amped by Cable? I remember reading about it but I can't recall at which part lol
@comic_book_fan: se this is silly johnny's nova blast likely wouldn't be enough
It's stated to have the power of an exploding star, exploding sun, dying star and has multiple feats of hurting characters on Apocalypse's tier or higher. It's going to be more than enough.
johnny's nova blast burns at 2 million degrees it is like a nuke going off without the fallout it's not going to beat Apocalypse
to put him down he has taken black bolt's voice
He was amped by the energies of Baby Cable when he did that. I've stated this above.
and broke one of sue's shields
He never broke Invisible woman's shields, all he did was blast it and it didn't break.
he did break it but sue and cable took the defensive and was about to draw onslaughts attention which none of them were ready for .
and no namor isn't stronger than Apocalypse colossus would make namor struggle
Yes Namor is stronger than Apocalypse, nevermind the fact Apocalypse ran away from him when they fought, Namor has tons of instances with solid high tiers over the years and has had long fought out brawls with them. People like Savage Hulk, Red Hulk, Thing, Abomination, Sentry etc.
Colossus wouldn't really give Namor any problems, he's consistently a mid tier brick and Namor shouldn't have any problems with him.
Apocalypse oneshotted him
When? citation please. Even if he did, this doesn't really impress me. Morals off Human Torch incinerated Colossus's clone ( Wolverine, Jean Grey and Cyclop's too) and in Infinity War and the clones were shown to be comparable to the originals in that arc too.
Fantastic Four #368
not all clones were perfect some were even more powerful than the originals and some were weaker still a cool feat for johnny but no promus that colossus was as strong as the real deal.
throw in his TK and other powers would end this before johnny would even get to this point
He doesn't really use his other abilities (not that there's anything to really talk about) and the OP has specified no internal attacks which is really the only use I can think of when thinking about his TK.
Even if you argue Apocalypse can one-shot, Johnny is much faster and much more powerful overall.
he literally has dozens of abealities to win this while johnny is a glass canon with one trick.
@comic_book_fan: johnny's nova blast burns at 2 million degrees it is like a nuke going off without the fallout it's not going to beat Apocalypse
Where did you get 2 million degrees? Never mind him hurting characters more durable than Apocalypse, It has statements of matching the heat of an exploding star, that's much hotter than a nuke:
Strange Tales #112
he did break it but sue and cable took the defensive and was about to draw onslaughts attention which none of them were ready for .
No he didn't he blasted her and the blast missed. There's once again nothing suggesting he broke it.
it wasn't beast with him it was angle but here he hits them both with his chest and knocks them out in one shot and this was after stryfe's ambush
That's nice, but Johnny has also one shotted Colossus's clone (when he was weaker than he is now) and has better high ends then Apocalypse too. Once again, is there any heat resistance feats that suggests Apocalypse can tank that?
not all clones were perfect some were even more powerful than the originals and some were weaker still a cool feat for johnny but no promus that colossus was as strong as the real deal.
Except a good deal of clones were shown to be very comparable:
Spider-man's clone almost beat Peter and he needed to be saved by Hobgoblin.
Thing's clone was giving him a tough fight for multiple pages and Puppet Master implied they were pretty even.
Iron man's clone actually beat him.
Thanos had problems with his clone and was being stalemated by him for multiple pages.
Wonder man's clone was fighting him for multiple pages and had feats like taking a cheap shot from Eric Masterson Thor and Professor Hulk.
Hawkeye's clone beat him.
he literally has dozens of abealities to win this while johnny is a glass canon with one trick.
Human Torch actually has more high tier durability feats than Apocalypse does. What dozens of abilities does he have to end this? He never even uses most of them and they're all fairly useless.
@comic_book_fan: johnny's nova blast burns at 2 million degrees it is like a nuke going off without the fallout it's not going to beat Apocalypse
Where did you get 2 million degrees? Never mind him hurting characters more durable than Apocalypse, It has statements of matching the heat of an exploding star, that's much hotter than a nuke:
Strange Tales #112
he did break it but sue and cable took the defensive and was about to draw onslaughts attention which none of them were ready for .
No he didn't he blasted her and the blast missed. There's once again nothing suggesting he broke it.
it wasn't beast with him it was angle but here he hits them both with his chest and knocks them out in one shot and this was after stryfe's ambush
That's nice, but Johnny has also one shotted Colossus's clone (when he was weaker than he is now) and has better high ends then Apocalypse too. Once again, is there any heat resistance feats that suggests Apocalypse can tank that?
not all clones were perfect some were even more powerful than the originals and some were weaker still a cool feat for johnny but no promus that colossus was as strong as the real deal.
Except a good deal of clones were shown to be very comparable:
Spider-man's clone almost beat Peter and he needed to be saved by Hobgoblin.
Thing's clone was giving him a tough fight for multiple pages and Puppet Master implied they were pretty even.
Iron man's clone actually beat him.
Thanos had problems with his clone and was being stalemated by him for multiple pages.
Wonder man's clone was fighting him for multiple pages and had feats like taking a cheap shot from Eric Masterson Thor and Professor Hulk.
Hawkeye's clone beat him.
i said this i said some clones were even more powerful that the originals i just said we don't know about the colossus clone remember the thing fought a clone of every brick and was holding his own including several hulks
he literally has dozens of abealities to win this while johnny is a glass canon with one trick.
Human Torch actually has more high tier durability feats than Apocalypse does. What dozens of abilities does he have to end this? He never even uses most of them and they're all fairly useless.
no but he has them and there not useless
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