Avatar: Pupils vs Teachers

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CocaColaMan

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#1  Edited By CocaColaMan  Online
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Zuko, Katara, Yun

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Jianzhu, Iroh, Pakku

  • Win by any means
  • In character
  • Start 30 ft away
  • Pakku has full moon feats, Katara does not
  • Fight in a canyon during Sozin's Comet
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chloros

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  • Yun > Jianzhu
  • Katara > Pakku
  • Iroh > Zuko

Zuko and Iroh are the most powerful here since Sozin's comet is out. Katara can at least pull water from the air where as Pakku has nothing to work with in the canyon. They are the most disadvantaged here. Yun has definitely succeeded his teacher and has more tricks. I'm siding with the pupils since that Iroh picture is creeping me out.

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CocaColaMan

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#4 CocaColaMan  Online

@chloros: Forgot to mention a river is running through the canyon

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IndomitableRegal

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I'm gonna say the pupils, with Katara and Yun doing the heavy lifting. Depending on how large the river is, it won't be such a huge body of water that Pakku is gonna outright overpower Katara, whose non amped feats are already impressive. Yun is above Jianzhu. Zuko vs. Iroh would be kind of irrelevant at that point.

Side note: that pic of Iroh is terrifying lol.

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BigDreamer48

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#6 BigDreamer48  Online

Iroh is the most powerful one here, but Katara and Yun can dispatch their opponents fast enough to aid Zuko so I'll side with the pupils.

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mantraxsp

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Siding with the pupils via general consensus.

Tbh the names should've gone, Iroh, Pakku, and Jianzhu but whatever. It looks neat.

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Viking1205

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Iroh is definitely the best one here. But the pupils having Katara and Yun greatly helps against the teachers. Yun is simply a notch above the Architect and by this point, Katara should have surpassed Pakku to eke out a hard win. I could see the Firelord do some heavy lifting and hold off the dragon before help arrives, Zuko would obviously be on the defensive for the entirety, but he should be good enough to not get torched right off the bat, lol. Numbers would probably play a good role here. Siding with the pupils for a minor majority.

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vengefulshot

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Pupils since Yun and Katara can beat their counterparts fast enough to help out Zuko.

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RonnyLamar

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#10  Edited By RonnyLamar

@bigdreamer48: iroh is not the strongest here Iroh has hype no impressive feats

Iroh feats are Mediocre

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RonnyLamar

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@viking1205: @bigdreamer48: iroh is not the strongest here Iroh has hype no impressive feats

Fighting Azula fodder soldiers not impressive

Fighting The Dai Le not impressive

Iroh feats are Mediocre

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RonnyLamar

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@vengefulshot: yeah your bias the pupils can not beat their teachers fast enough to help Zuko

Unless Katara bloodbend

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deactivated-61cf4439ee1f9

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@indomitableregal@bigdreamer48@chloros don't know if it's undue katara hype at this point or everyone just hating pakku...

They're masters and pupils for a reason... masters stomp, even with Yun being superior to the 'master' earthbender, he won't beat a seasoned firebender/waterbender of their caliber.

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BigDreamer48

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#14 BigDreamer48  Online

@anderioan: yeah, and pupils (two of who are full-fledged masters at this point) sometimes surpass their masters. Now, like I said in my original post, Iroh is the strongest here. However, in case you haven’t noticed, pupils can match or become stronger than their teachers in Avatar regardless of age and experience.

I’ve heard your argument regarding these topics before, and frankly, I disagree. By implication, Katara is a prodigy, and has in-canon mastered more aspects of waterbending than Pakku has. Whether you like it or not, it doesn’t matter, because it is what we’ve seen and what has been confirmed. Pakku does get lowballed at times (as does Katara get overestimated) but this is in no way a stomp in either direction. Especially when Katara’s non amped feats can compare to Pakku’s amped ones and she can utilize many more techniques than he’s shown or been implied to have. And mind you, he doesn’t have the North Pole here. She and Yun can take care of Pakku and Jianzhu fast enough to help out Zuko. Not easily, but they can. And Yun in a Canyon is definitely better than Pakku. Much more versatile and has much more to work with. His tunneling and earth liquefying will be serious trouble, and Pakku has nothing to suggest that he can simply overpower Yun, or out skill him (even with the full moon). Again, not a stomp (assuming Pakku has a decent supply of water), but I have Yun above him, and while skilled, Jianzhu is the weakest here.

The masters can take rounds because of Iroh, but @viking1205 and @chloros explained it well. Also, Iroh can’t take all three of them if the gang up on him. While he takes any of them 1 vs. 1 for sure, he won’t take all three of them. He’s too grounded. Katara and Yun are fast enough with their bending to keep Iroh from conjuring up giant fireballs like he did in Ba Sing Se.

I stand by my original verdict. While Iroh is the best here (and yes, he canonically is because I’m taking in statements too), the “pupils” (also masters in their own right), can take this. They have more win options. Even if you disagree, this is far from a stomp.

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Hody_Jones

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Honestly Pakku with full moon feats is a serious challenge for Katara; he might seriously(alibiet comically) have the best water spout usage outside of Korra. Iroh is disgustingly powerful and I don't think Zuko at that point could seriously challenge someone like him. Yun however is a serious problem with that much earth around but I do suspect Iroh could be a problem for him being that he'd have to use all his spare time defending against attacks Iroh Outputs, otherwise his team is toast.

Cabbage man look alike is a liability but he does provide decent support; if they switch up the matchups though.....Iroh would probably evaporate whatever Katara threw at him and would generally just outskill her due to experience; which would take out their strongest Character while Pakku would fare pretty well against Yun by recognizing the familiarity in some of his bending.

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deactivated-61cf4439ee1f9

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@anderioan: yeah, and pupils (two of who are full-fledged masters at this point) sometimes surpass their masters. Now, like I said in my original post, Iroh is the strongest here. However, in case you haven’t noticed, pupils can match or become stronger than their teachers in Avatar regardless of age and experience.

Sup dude! I take issue with this underlined statement, as it never happens in any way that is explicitly stated or obvious, and not even when the 'masters' were themselves kids (Aang's earthbending never surpassed Toph's in the show (and imo never did throughout their lives), and imo did not surpass Katara due to a personal disinterest in the element as his level of superiority in raw talent displayed over hers in the scroll episode should scale to his talent over her as a waterbender in general, he was just a total slacker when it came to waterbending, and why not? When you have 4 to choose from you're bound to favor some more than others.)

I’ve heard your argument regarding these topics before, and frankly, I disagree.

That's fair.

By implication, Katara is a prodigy, and has in-canon mastered more aspects of waterbending than Pakku has.

That's just it though, you don't know that. He's a side character with like, 8 minutes of screen time if I'm being generous compared to Katara's entire arc and all the feats she gets by virtue of being a main character. you have no idea what his maximum is and neither do I, that's why I find his constant lowballing to be so disingenuous. For all we know (and this is very likely) Katara learned everything she showed in the later seasons (sans bloodbending, as that was Hama) from him. She said this herself in the Sokka's master episode.

Whether you like it or not, it doesn’t matter, because it is what we’ve seen and what has been confirmed.

Where? And please don't say in a book, we're talking about the source material here, the show we all watched and loved in and of itself as kids, and the show alone.

Pakku does get lowballed at times (as does Katara get overestimated) but this is in no way a stomp in either direction.

This is a fair point, but not because of Katara or Zuko. Your following points in regards to Yun is where my ignorance on OG book characters that add new canon rather than change what exists, begins to show.

Especially when Katara’s non amped feats can compare to Pakku’s amped ones and she can utilize many more techniques than he’s shown or been implied to have.

This is kind of a repeat of your earlier point that I answered above.

And mind you, he doesn’t have the North Pole here.

Neither of them do.

She and Yun can take care of Pakku and Jianzhu fast enough to help out Zuko.

More of a credit to Yun, really, but as I've said, I don't have the credentials to debate with you when you bring him up.

Not easily, but they can.

I getcha, pal.

And Yun in a Canyon is definitely better than Pakku.

I mean, probably, depending on how much water he gets, it's good that waterbenders have such a serious nerf, though. But from what those who know have informed me about Yun, he's easily the strongest pupil here.

Much more versatile and has much more to work with. His tunneling and earth liquefying will be serious trouble, and Pakku has nothing to suggest that he can simply overpower Yun, or out skill him (even with the full moon). Again, not a stomp (assuming Pakku has a decent supply of water), but I have Yun above him, and while skilled, Jianzhu is the weakest here.

Happy to agree with you here, my mind was blowing when aystarr and viking were telling me about him. To be so talented that you're thought to be the avatar...that makes for a very interesting concept and character.

The masters can take rounds because of Iroh, but @viking1205 and @chloros explained it well. Also, Iroh can’t take all three of them if the gang up on him. While he takes any of them 1 vs. 1 for sure, he won’t take all three of them. He’s too grounded. Katara and Yun are fast enough with their bending to keep Iroh from conjuring up giant fireballs like he did in Ba Sing Se.

Yeah, with your Yun arguments, you make a solid point for why this is not a stomp for the masters, especially given the setting. But Yun carries this, imo. My only points that I have gotten flak for has been opposition to the baseless insinuation that poor Pakku aint got nothin' that we haven't seen from him with so little screen-time, and that Katara isn't the greatest waterbender in the world at the tender age of 14.

I stand by my original verdict. While Iroh is the best here (and yes, he canonically is because I’m taking in statements too), the “pupils” (also masters in their own right), can take this. They have more win options. Even if you disagree, this is far from a stomp.

At 14, 16, and however old Yun is? It'd be kinda sad if there wasn't much of a difference in skill between them in their mid-teens and them in their mid-30s and 40s. What would they be then, super-ultra masters?

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BigDreamer48

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#17 BigDreamer48  Online

@anderioan said:

and not even when the 'masters' were themselves kids (Aang's earthbending never surpassed Toph's in the show (and imo never did throughout their lives)

Look at it this way. Katara went from barely being able to hold up a puddle to casually throwing giant waves and stopping the rain. She advanced faster than any other character except for Aang. Example: matching and overpowering characters like Azula despite having less combat experience and training. That's a huge implication that Katara is an exceptional example of a prodigy, as she was quickly thrusted on the level of other know prodigies Azula, Toph (who matched Bumi while they were both goofing off), and even Aang, who got beat by Azula every time in Book 2, whereas Katara overpowered her and did consistently better in fights.

That's just it though, you don't know that. He's a side character with like, 8 minutes of screen time if I'm being generous compared to Katara's entire arc and all the feats she gets by virtue of being a main character. you have no idea what his maximum is and neither do I, that's why I find his constant lowballing to be so disingenuous. For all we know (and this is very likely) Katara learned everything she showed in the later seasons (sans bloodbending, as that was Hama) from him. She said this herself in the Sokka's master episode.

But when you don't know you go off by what you've seen. With Iroh it's different because it has been explicitly implied that he was the only one to be able to match Ozai during the comet, who is confirmed to be the most powerful firebender in the series. This implies some serious skill on Iroh's part, even though his feats don't stack up until the comet arrives. We have heard about Pakku is that he is the considered the best waterbender known as of Book 1, but that could be a huge gap from Ozai for all we know. No mention of Hama either for obvious reasons, who is definitely more innovative than he is, if less powerful (but again, we don't know that, since we never got to see Hama in an environment full of snow and ice either). And Katara beat her after a day of learning. I don't know if you're one of those users who thinks Hama is weak, but she was also implied to be the best waterbender in the Southern Water Tribe considering her flashback sequence.

If we don't know Pakku's maximum, then how much hype can we truly give him? I place him above most other waterbenders in terms of power and possibly skill, but he's been in The North Pole for most of his life for all we know. Also, after Sokka's Master, Katara learned from Hama, and this didn't just include bloodbending. By the end of Book 3, Katara can pull water out of thin air, pull water out of plants, bend steam, heal, plant bend, etc. While it's possible to argue that Pakku can manipulate steam, he probably didn't know about the others, because otherwise, he would have taught these techniques to Katara. Again, Katara isn't stomping him at all. In fact, I think it's a closer fight than I originally implied. However, you seem to give Pakku a lot of benefit of the doubt due to limited screen time. I know you don't like Katara's power arc, but what you see is what you get. And she was labeled good enough to be Aang's teacher by the end of Book 1, and improved massively through Books 2 and 3.

Where? And please don't say in a book, we're talking about the source material here, the show we all watched and loved in and of itself as kids, and the show alone.

Again, whether you like it or not, the comics and canon are source material approved and produced by Bryan Konietzko and Michael Dante DiMartino. So unfortunately, it's not about the show alone. I know you don't like it, I've heard you express why, but it contains canon feats which are not restricted here. If they are, then that changes my argument a tad, but not about Katara, so I'll leave it at that.

This is a fair point, but not because of Katara or Zuko. Your following points in regards to Yun is where my ignorance on OG book characters that add new canon rather than change what exists, begins to show.

Then how did you justify saying it's a stomp? For all you could know Yun is better than Aang and Jianzhu could be fodder (which is not true by the way, and you do know this because you've talked to Viking).

I mean, probably, depending on how much water he gets, it's good that waterbenders have such a serious nerf, though. But from what those who know have informed me about Yun, he's easily the strongest pupil here.

Well, with the Comet, it would be Zuko, but overall, yes. If the Comet was not in play, I would have Yun as the best player on the battlefield (yes, marginally above Iroh too).

My only points that I have gotten flak for has been opposition to the baseless insinuation that poor Pakku aint got nothin' that we haven't seen from him with so little screen-time, and that Katara isn't the greatest waterbender in the world at the tender age of 14.

But that's the thing, he has great feats despite minimal screen time. This gives us a solid understanding of where he is meant to be placed: he was taking on many fire nation tanks with The Full Moon and The North Pole, and had no reason to be holding back. And even with that little screen time, I still don't have him and Katara far apart. What gives her the advantage here is that they AREN'T in a heavy water-based environment. Pakku won't be able to go full water spout like he did against those tanks, and for what we DO know for sure, Katara is more innovative than he is, thanks to Hama. Comparable power + more innovation would give her the edge, at least in my opinion.

It'd be kinda sad if there wasn't much of a difference in skill between them in their mid-teens and them in their mid-30s and 40s. What would they be then, super-ultra masters?

The show doesn't really care if it's "kind of sad". It makes a point that kids can match or even surpass adults. Otherwise, the adults would be obviously superior when compared to the kids at all, even with their minimal screen time. For example, Ozai, Iroh, and even Jeong-Jeong during SC were visibly better than Azula and Zuko.

Pakku got his water blast destroyed by a fodder comet soldier, while Katara blocked an insane Azula's lightning blast + fire blasts, and was innovative enough to trick her.

Again, it's fine with me if you disagree and if you don't like the comics, because I do see a good argument for the Teachers winning. However, I'm going to need more than "but you don't know Pakku's maximum" to be convinced otherwise.