Asajj Ventress vs General Grievous vs Eeth Koth

CALLOUTS: @dirtyluna@willvalentine2@flolikeyou@lord_tenebrous@richard96@thebluedragon20@theoverdaddy@flolikeyou@killbilly@lord_tenebrous@el_mago@red12789@emmafrostxmen@erkanbeater@red12789@thevivas@captof501st@anakinvader99@kbroskywalker@alextheboss@darthadi

Grievous all rounds. By ROTS he is well beyond both of them. Even during TCW.

Grievous should logically win, however

Given Eeth’s surprising and very incredible fight with Vader and the fact that Eeth was actually winning that duel by driving him back (noted this is probably prime Vader and he wasn’t hindered or injured in any way) I will have to give this fight to Eeth Koth, who in TCW was able to, albeit massively hindered contend and almost beat Grievous (if it weren’t for the magnaguards).

If he can deal with Grievous he should be able to win against Ventress too.

Grievous by circa Rots should be stronger than both of these characters he should win pretty comfortably.

General Grievous.

Perfectly said.

Round 1: Eeth Koth 6/10 times.

Round 2: General Grievous 8/10 times.

Round 3: Eeth Koth 8/10 times.

Round 4: Eeth Koth 4/10 times. General Grievous 3/10 times. Asajj Ventress 2/10 times.

Grievous

@flolikeyou: Vader was never driven back though not only was that evident in their duel but by just looking at them you see Eeth was wounded while Vader didn't even get hurt not to mention Eeth was tired as seen in the duel

@void_reborn: How?

@theoverdaddy: @flolikeyou: Vader was most likely not prime at that point. That comic took place right after he got his suit.

However considering Eeth Koth is composite here, he probably does win.

@theoverdaddy: @flolikeyou: @red12789: @mrsportsguy13: @el_mago: @void_reborn: Are you guys assuming Ventress only beat Grievous on screen due to being on Dathomir? Ventress won on screen via dueling and has the force on top of that, so it would be hard to argue Grievous is superior unless Ventress was amped. Grievous did seem cocky, but the fight should at least be really close.

@alextheboss:

Ventress was losing her fight with Grievous until it turned into a lightsaber slugfest where she outswung him. I think it's obvious she was amped added with what we already know of Dathomir's nexus. Even if she did win unamped it's an inconsistency because she loses to, has great difficulty with and egts played by opponents Grievous trounces on a regular basis.

Koth has already matched or outfought Grievous while injured, so he pulls ahead here. Canon Ventress is outclassed by both.

Where's the evidence that this took place shortly after ROTS? Last I heard, the hunt for Eeth Koth takes place 5 years after ROTS.

On-panel, all Vader managed to do was tag Koth with the Force. By contrast, Koth cut his helmet. Off-panel, they dueled for awhile and when we finally see them again, both are heavily battered, and Vader has visibly taken more hits. After their initial clash, Vader himself even acknowledged that the fight could go either way, and in the end, Vader was only able to kill Koth after distracting him.

You could use the Grievous > TCW Maul > Rebels Maul < Rebels Vader scaling to suggest Koth losing to Vader would mean he's on the lower side of the spectrum. Potentially equal to Ahsoka since both had a similar 1 for 1 tag with Vader in their fight and therefore equal to Rebels Maul. Although, a lightsaber strike > a force push mid duel. So Koth could be TCW Maul level.

Actually I forgot about Koth there. Grievous would beat Ventress but probably lose to Koth

I don't think so. If Rebels Vader was as close to Grievous as Koth was, he should have defeated Ahsoka in far more decisive fashion, since she closely matched a worse Maul than the one Grievous is comfortably superior to.

And, Koth's duel with Vader wasn't really similar to Ahsoka's.

Both Ahsoka and Koth duel Vader for awhile, then there's a pause, and they duel again. When Vader duels Ahsoka for a bit, then there's a pause, and they're about to fight again, he tells her she's going to die. When Vader duels Koth for a bit, then there's a pause, and they're about to fight again, he acknowledges that the fight could go either way. After dueling Vader a second time, Ahsoka decides to commit suicide in order to take down Vader, because she has realized her inferiority. After dueling Vader a second time, Koth is still fully confident in his ability to defeat Vader, and the latter resorts to cheapshotting him in order to win.

Moreover, Koth tagged Vader many more times than Ahsoka did.

@void_reborn:

I think it's obvious she was amped added with what we already know of Dathomir's nexus.

All we really know is that it amps nightsister magic, and it's strong in the darkside. I do think it would make sense for Ventress to be a bit stronger on Dathomir than other places, but there isnt' really evidence of significant amps from nexuses in current canon.

Even if she did win unamped it's an inconsistency because she loses to, has great difficulty with and egts played by opponents Grievous trounces on a regular basis.

Since when? She fought Anakin and Obi-wan at the same time and did alright, fought Dooku multiple times and survived, fought Maul and Savage and held her own, would have killed master Luminara if she wasn't saved by Ahsoka, and killed Quinlan Vos' master.

Grievous on the other hand had trouble with Kanan's master, had trouble with Fisto, had trouble with season 5 Ahsoka, had trouble with Eeth koth, iirc lost to Vos, ect. Grievous has done well against Kenobi (even though he had to run twice from him), but if you take away his Kenobi fights, he has a pretty lack luster track record against jedi masters in canon, and Dooku was surprised to here and even thought it was an accomplishment for him to beat a master. Ventress on the other hand killed at least one, and would have killed another if not for outside interference.

Grievous can be argued to be the better duelist and physical fighter, but overall his feats aren't much better if at all.

@el_mago:

no i assuming Grievous whould destroy ventress on a neutral ground.

I think you need to read what I wrote again because this doesn't make sense as a response. Saying "Yes, I assume Grievous would destroy Ventress on neutral ground" would make sense, but saying no is contradictory.

talking about koth and his fight with vader the comic takes place after rots since in literally no other source it states it happens after years of those events wherever is this actúally the topic of discussion based on overall things and some hype the general have on other media he is the clear Victor.

Dude, what are you even saying? Is English not your first language?

@lord_tenebrous:

Where's the evidence that this took place shortly after ROTS?

The comic literally starts off at the end of ROTS and I don't think any time skips were stated in the comic so I assume the events take place back to back.

Last I heard, the hunt for Eeth Koth takes place 5 years after ROTS.

Where did you hear this?

@alextheboss: On Wookieepedia, it states that the hunt for Eeth Koth took place in 14BBY, 5 years after Revenge of the Sith.

I am inclined to believe that is correct, but Wookieepedia isn't a particularly reliable source.

Really? Eeth has an injury in his eye, robes torn and is shaking in his breath while Vader has a tears in his suit and not even a scratch his helmet. Vader never said it would have gone either way

Not immediately after killing him, not when the grand inquisitor asked nor when Palpatine talked about Eeth Koth. Nowhere does Vader ever acknowledge that Koth could beat him so Vader was winning done deal

They themselves usually take information from credible sources though, so I'd say it's true. But I could be wrong. I'm going to stick to it being true until someone proves Wookieepedia wrong however.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWGYnSUDdRY

Really? Because Asajj kinda beat him while he had 4 sabers against her two. Like who? Obi-wan has beaten Grievous and matched him and has never been disarmed by or one-shotted Grievous unlike Ventress, Maul is stronger than Kit who could beat Grievous and Anakin even in TCW I consider better than Grievous especially season 4 Anakin. Most of her opponents she has an easier time either beating or matching people than Grievous does.

Here is all the evidence you need Seventh sister is still alive so Jedi Fallen Order still hasn't happened yet which we all know is 5 years after ROTS

@alextheboss:

Since when? She fought Anakin and Obi-wan at the same time and did alright,

Only on Christophisis or however it's spelled. On Teth & Kamino she was closely matched with Anakin alone, and on Teth she was casually toyed with by an unserious Kenobi. Later in the war, above Sullust, she only faces them combined briefly and is quickly outfought. She mostly duels them one on one, stalemating Anakin and closely matching Kenobi on an individual basis.

fought Dooku multiple times and survived,

She was stomped in each encounter by a reluctant Dooku who could have easily ended it at any point like Sidious vs Maul & Savage.

fought Maul and Savage and held her own,

She did more than that, so this is a good feat.

would have killed master Luminara if she wasn't saved by Ahsoka,

While enraged. Before that, she was being badly outmanuevered by a hindered Luminara who all but said she was trash to her.

and killed Quinlan Vos' master.

Good feat, not Grievous level.

Grievous on the other hand had trouble with Kanan's master,

A Council member as early as TPM who Grievous defeated a few months earlier.

had trouble with Fisto,

Another Council member.

had trouble with season 5 Ahsoka,

If we're using outliers, Ventress had trouble with 22 bby Ahsoka, which is far worse.

had trouble with Eeth koth,

Another Council member who gave post-ROTS Vader the fight of his life.

iirc lost to Vos,

Really the only bad feat you've posted thus far.

Grievous has done well against Kenobi

That's the understatement of the year.

(even though he had to run twice from him),

On no occasion did he have to run from Kenobi because he was losing a lightsaber duel.

but if you take away his Kenobi fights, he has a pretty lack luster track record against jedi masters in canon,

Defeating Depa Billaba, defeating Adi Gallia, defeating Shaak Ti, defeating Roron Corobb, killing at least a dozen Jedi as early as s1, etc.

and Dooku was surprised to here and even thought it was an accomplishment for him to beat a master.

Dooku thought it was impressive to defeat a Master period. This just speaks to how formidable Masters generally are. In Dark Disciple, Ventress admitted that she has never defeated a Jedi Master without difficulty, and attributes Quinlan's Master status to his impressive combat ability.

Ventress on the other hand killed at least one,

Who? By her own admission, any Master she's bested has made her work for it.

In canon, Grievous consistently competes with Council members and trounces most everyone else. Ventress has never dueled a Council member, and has never contended with anyone who has been able to compete with one, besides Grievous himself, and that was on Dathomir.

The comic literally starts off at the end of ROTS and I don't think any time skips were stated in the comic so I assume the events take place back to back.

The first issue of the comic takes place after ROTS, this is nearly 20 comics later.

Where did you hear this?

Overdaddy answered that.

Well the seventh sister is alive and kicking so it must be before Jedi Fallen Order which is 5 years after ROTS

@anakinvader99 said:

@theoverdaddy said:

@red12789 said:

@theoverdaddy said:

@alextheboss: On Wookieepedia, it states that the hunt for Eeth Koth took place in 14BBY, 5 years after Revenge of the Sith.

I am inclined to believe that is correct, but Wookieepedia isn't a particularly reliable source.

They themselves usually take information from credible sources though, so I'd say it's true. But I could be wrong. I'm going to stick to it being true until someone proves Wookieepedia wrong however.

Here is all the evidence you need Seventh sister is still alive so Jedi Fallen Order still hasn't happened yet which we all know is 5 years after ROTS

And all this tells us is that Fallen Order hasn't taken place. This doesn't mean that the two events do not occur in the same year.

@lord_tenebrous said:

@anakinvader99 said:

@theoverdaddy said:

@red12789 said:

@theoverdaddy said:

@alextheboss: On Wookieepedia, it states that the hunt for Eeth Koth took place in 14BBY, 5 years after Revenge of the Sith.

I am inclined to believe that is correct, but Wookieepedia isn't a particularly reliable source.

They themselves usually take information from credible sources though, so I'd say it's true. But I could be wrong. I'm going to stick to it being true until someone proves Wookieepedia wrong however.

Here is all the evidence you need Seventh sister is still alive so Jedi Fallen Order still hasn't happened yet which we all know is 5 years after ROTS

And all this tells us is that Fallen Order hasn't taken place. This doesn't mean that the two events do not occur in the same year.

Well, it doesn't help your case either way because Vader would be nowhere near his prime at this point as Dave Filoni says he was in his prime during Rebels, and if we include ROTJ and first Vader comic statements it's even worse as he would be 15 years away from his prime

@anakinvader99 said:

@red12789 said:

@theoverdaddy said:

@alextheboss: On Wookieepedia, it states that the hunt for Eeth Koth took place in 14BBY, 5 years after Revenge of the Sith.

I am inclined to believe that is correct, but Wookieepedia isn't a particularly reliable source.

Well the seventh sister is alive and kicking so it must be before Jedi Fallen Order which is 5 years after ROTS

Thank you. It's been a while since I've read those books...

@red12789: The Seventh Sister was killed after Fallen Order though. She died in 3 BBY. It's the Second Sister who was killed during Fallen Order.

@anakinvader99:

Well she one shotted Obi-wan in Sullust

She three-shotted him, and then he one-shotted her later on. It's a quickly paced duel wherein Kenobi emerged on top.

Who is featless

Irrelevent, the person I was debating with wasn't talking about the feats of the characters, he was talking about their records against Jedi Masters.

and we don't know how the fight happened,

We know that Grievous defeated her. Therefore the default is that Grievous > Depa at that point in time, because there's no evidence that it was circumstantial.

never happened,

Grievous outfought Gallia in Nomad Droids.

not canon,

Yes it is. Canon sourcebooks say he defeated Roron Corobb & Shaak Ti during the battle of Coruscant and claimed their lightsabers as trophies.

No evidence he openly tried to kill her

When she pushed him. It was Ventress who pursued Dooku, he even warned her that she couldn't beat him, and reluctantly accepted the challenge after she insisted on fighting. Dooku was perfectly content to let her be.

and couldn't stomp her as that would be a one shot or speed blitz neither happpened

He stomped her in the first duel multiple times, and dominated her with the Force like Yoda did and Sidious did to Maul & Savage, showing that he could have ended her at a whim.

How?

Ventress repeatedly charges at Luminara, who outmanuevers her so that Ventress is left hanging and almost falls off the edge. Like how Dooku danced around Savage's attacks.

Hindered Luminara >> early war Ventress.

Luminara was unable to outmatch her in the Force and still lost.

Luminara wasn't "unable do do anything." Ventress attacked her with the Force, and failed to overpower Luminara's defenses. So it was an enraged Ventress who was unable to outmatch Luminara in the Force.

Yet she still lost after the insult

She lost to an enraged Ventress.

Yet she proceeded to beat him

Not relevant. Alex was using him struggling against her as an anti feat, so I pointed out that he beat her earlier. She just got that much better.

Who is weaker than Savage and Maul

TCW Maul has never dueled a Council member except maybe Obi-Wan who is sub-par anyway until ROTS. So no, he has nothing to place him on Fisto's level. Savage was outskilled by Adi Gallia who lost to Grievous, who was outfought by Fisto. So even Savage is worse than Kit, and again that's not relevant. You're inserting yourself into this debate and not arguing the proper positions.

So did Grievous as he couldn't one shot her immeadeatly

No he didn't. He trounced her at first, then played around after according to Filoni.

No it isn't he couldn't beat him straight up and actually got disarmed by him

Yes he does, he quickly stomps Kenobi all the time in TCW:

Season 2-5/6.

Except ROTS and Saleucami

ROTS is not part of this discussion, and on Saleucami Grievous was caught off-guard and still did well.

Well they are usually featless and not that great 99% of the time

Dooku & Ventress disagree.

Except Obi-wan who was on the council so yeah

Can you prove that Obi-Wan was on the Council then? Even if he was, he's just sub par until ROTS and thus it's not usable since he has done much worse against Grievous than all the other Council members he's fought.

@theoverdaddy: Oh right I always confused those 2 still the point stands as Jedi fallen order didn't happen yet

@anakinvader99:

Well, it doesn't help your case either way because Vader would be nowhere near his prime at this point as Dave Filoni says he was in his prime during Rebels, and if we include ROTJ and first Vader comic statements it's even worse as he would be 15 years away from his prime

Yes it does. I don't recall Dave ever saying that, and Vader's worst dueling anti feats are in Rebels so if anything he declined during that time and got better later.

And, Lords of the Sith states that Vader became stronger after Mustafar so the Vader that Koth fought is still > ROTS Anakin.

How can you tell it's before Fallen order? There's nothing there that hints towards it. Hell, Second Sister isn't there so that could arguably be seen as a reason why it takes place after Fallen Order. I wouldn't bet money on it but there is nothing that says it took place before Fallen Order.

@theoverdaddy: Isn’t that Second Sister right there in the foreground?

@anakinvader99:

Really? Eeth has an injury in his eye, robes torn

Off-panel, Koth was punched in the eye, part of his robe on his torso is torn -- likely, Vader grabbed it and it tore -- there's a cut mark to the side of that, there's some odd discoloration on his robes covering one leg, and a cut mark on that. Off-panel, the robes covering one of Vader's leg's are in shreds -- likely from taking the impact of a concentrated Force attack -- and he has a minimum of 10 lightsaber cuts or stab marks, and that's not including the "cuts" that could pass as wrinkles. Koth visibly tagged Vader more than the latter touched him.

and is shaking in his breath

Because Koth is an organic, he will suffer far more from a beating than someone like Vader would. Even then, Vader is positioned like someone weary, concerned or exhausted. It's abundantly clear from the art that they've been slugging it out pretty heavily off-panel and it has taken a toll.

and not even a scratch his helmet.

An oversight, since we clearly saw Koth slice his helmet and cause damage:

Vader never said it would have gone either way

Yes he does, right here:

Koth tells him he's going to prevail, Vader visibly hunkers down for a duel and responds by saying they'll see. In other words, he might win, he might not.

@alextheboss:

Since when? She fought Anakin and Obi-wan at the same time and did alright

She was on the losing end of the entire fight on Christophsis.

As for their fight later in TCW, Ventress is more motivated than usual. She wants to prove that she can take on the Jedi because she feels Dooku doesn't have as much faith in her. This is also after he discards her as his apprentice in their holocall. Also, she is slightly injured because of the ship crash but that proves to be an advantage because she is enraged throughout portions of this fight. Ventress kicks Obi-Wan, tags Anakin with the force and is tagged with the force by Anakin and Obi-Wan each. So far she is doing well but losing. She pauses for a moment and enters a fit of rage, force choking Obi-Wan and Anakin, similar to what Savage did to her and Dooku later in TCW.

In her fight with Obi-Wan in the TCW movie, he's basically the polar opposite of serious in the entire fight. Pretty sure even Filoni says this is a time where Obi-Wan can 'have some fun' with his opponent. She was losing this fight as well despite tagging Kenobi with a kick. Both disarmed each other at different points in the fight but Obi-Wan got the better of her in several blade locks and while he was unarmed.

Her good feat is winning against Anakin but ultimately having to retreat cause of the clones on Kamino. Regardless, it's irrelevant cause I never mentioned Anakin in the post you replied to. I only said opponents Grievous has trounced. That would include Obi-Wan, who is consistently outfought by him and we've gone over this multiple times already.

Then there's also Ahsoka Tano. Let's compare early showings of the two against her shall we?

Ventress gets the better of Ahsoka after a few saber exchanges. Expected.

Ahsoka stands her ground for about a minute or so without much happening. Ahsoka then gets outsmarted.

Now compared with this. Ahsoka got absolutely stomped by Grievous.

This isn't all there is either. If you just take a look at these episodes, Ahsoka is always confident in her ability to fight against Ventress compared with her running scared from Grievous like he's a horror movie monster moments after they start fighting. It's clear one of them has shown Ahsoka she is completely outmatched and she concedes to the fact.

There's also this which confirms what I just said:

"Sorry to interrupt your playtime, Grumpy, but wouldn't you like a challenge?" she quipped.

"That wouldn't be you," Grievous replied.

He swirled his cape aside, revealing a second lightsaber. He launched at Ahsoka. She realized she was no match for the general and sprinted down the corridor.

The Clone Wars: Grievous Attacks

There's also the PIS fight between Ahsoka and Grievous later where she causes him to visibly struggle in their blade lock. Grievous outfights a more skilled, experienced and grown Ahsoka to the one Ventress has difficulty closing out a fight against.

fought Maul and Savage and held her own

When Ventress and Savage were fighting amongst themselves when Maul and Obi-Wan were occupied, Ventress was losing the fight. She got more punches on Savage but he was beating her down with his physicals. Holding off Maul and Savage for a moment is an ok feat and consistent with her holding her own against Obi Wan and Anakin.

fought Dooku multiple times and survived

Idk why you're even using this as a feat for her. On one hand, she and the nightsisters were electrified and got thrown out a window by a surprised, unprepared, poisoned, blinded, nauseated and fatigued Dooku. Has to be the worst feat she's ever had. On the contrary, when on even ground, Dooku stomped her in a straight duel. Ventress performs worse against Dooku while trying to kill him than when Grievous is sparring friendly against Dooku.

Grievous on the other hand had trouble with Kanan's master

And this is bad because? He was amputated of 2 limbs but he won regardless. Pretty sure Depa is a council member as well.

had trouble with Fisto

Another council member. Pretty sure Grievous wasn't in the right shape to be fighting according to his repair droid. There's also Fisto using the mist. He didn't really use it aside from one attack that didn't work so I don't really count that. It goes against what was shown. Your point?

had trouble with season 5 Ahsoka

PIS. He was winning and toying with her anyway.

had trouble with Eeth koth

I look at this fight and what I see is Koth surrounded by Grievous and 4 Magnaguards. At no point do I feel like Grievous would ever feel threatened. Koth has basically lost the moment they are all around him. Grievous just decides to continue fighting it as a 1v1. The Mags never at any point strike at Koth who is 100% occupied with Grievous. They only attack him when he comes close to hitting a Grievous who has no reason to be taking this fight seriously as the Jedi is already in his hands. Regardless, Koth was winning the engagement so I give it to him. It's just that when I look at the duel, I don't see why Grievous would be fighting at a 100% but that's just headcanon so it's irrelevant. Koth is another council member anyway.

Iirc lost to Vos

When did they fight?

Grievous has done well against Kenobi

Outfought and stomped him several times in melee combat*

(even though he had to run twice from him)

It's 4 times actually. 3 in TCW and once in ROTS. But again this is something we have been over before. The only time this mattered is on the fight where Obi-Wan is the one who outfought Grievous, tagging him by slamming a Mag into him mid fight. Even in this confrontation, Grievous has the better feat because he kicked Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan only hit Grievous by using the force, which is easier. Every other time Grievous leaves it is because Grievous decides to flaunt about something when he's already won the duel/melee part of the fight. If it doesn't happen mid-fight, it doesn't really matter.

he has a pretty lack luster track record against jedi masters in canon

Not really, he killed an unnamed Jedi Master in a comic where he finds an abandoned Jedi Temple, outfights Adi Gallia and captures her, defeats Kanan's master, gets the better of Obi-Wan in almost every engagement they've had.

As for bad ones, he went against the technical advice of his droid and fought Fisto when he apparently shouldn't have and lost.

The only anti-feat that I'm aware of is him not doing too well against Koth.

If anything, he has a GOOD track record against Jedi Masters in canon. Not even close to how he dominates and destroys them in Legends but still it's not lackluster at all. He has a lackluster performance against fodder like Gungans.

Dooku was surprised to here and even thought it was an accomplishment for him to beat a master

Which makes no sense because iirc he has already beaten a Jedi Master before this point. Even if not, I think Dooku was just genuinely pleased, not surprised that it happened. He said it was 'truly worthy of recognition' or something along those lines.

overall his feats aren't much better if at all

Quite the opposite actually. They are far better.

Oh shiiiiit yep ok I was just skimming through it and thought it was Vader, my bad. Yeah looks like it's either 5 years or earlier. Probably the 5th year just a few months before Fallen Order then.

You mean is?

@theoverdaddy: Reading through this thread has confused me in regards to the timeline, could you help me out? Fallen Order, death of the seventh sister and second sister, hunt for Eeth Koth. What is the order of these events and when do they take place?

Aight so basically: Both the events of Fallen Order and the Hunt for Eeth Koth happened in 14 BBY, 5 years after RotS. Seeing as though the Second Sister makes an appearance in those scans, I'd say the events of the Hunt for Eeth Koth could happen anywhere from a few days to a few months before Fallen Order.

The Seventh Sister was killed in 3 BBY, 3 years before A New Hope, far after the events of this comic.

Ah okay, for a second there I thought you held the opinion that Ventress was hindered while on Dathomir.

That clears everything up well. Thank you.

@void_reborn: No worries at all man, anytime.