Asajj Ventress vs Darth Zannah

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CitizenSurfer

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Information/Rules

  • Asajj Ventress from the end of the Clone Wars
  • Darth Zannah from Dynasty Of Evil
  • Battle is to the death.
  • No preparation for either combatant
  • Battle location: Onderon

Round 1: Lightsabers only.
Round 2: Force abilities only.
Round 3: All out battle.

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macattack1

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#3  Edited By macattack1

I assume legends only?

Probably a good fight. I’d favour Ventress in pure Sabers but Zannah should be able to last a while, at least long enough to use her sorcery which I don’t think Ventress could defend against very effectively at all.

So Ventress in pure sabers (eventually)

Zannah in force abilities (especially effective here)

And I’d favour Zannah to win overall.

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CatMan6

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Don’t know enough about Zannah

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RedSithDisciple

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Zannah can cause some trouble with her sorcery but Ventress is better overall

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Supreme101

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Ventress

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#8  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

Round 1: Lightsabers only- ventress

Round 2: Force abilities only- zannah

Round 3: All out battle- difficult to decide overall. zannah’s sorcery could prove to be the deciding factor in the end as i don’t see ventress being able to resist that at all.

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owie

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#9 owie  Moderator

Yeah, I agree with the general consensus above. Ventress probably has the lightsaber advantage, with better feats in general. But it's interesting to consider Ventress's final fights with her ex-master Dooku in Dark Disciple and Zannah's fights with her ex-master Bane--which had a greater gap between them and their master in sabers?

And Zannah has the advantage in a sorcery/force combo, and probably in an overall fight.

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frozen

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#10 frozen  Moderator

@owie said:

Yeah, I agree with the general consensus above. Ventress probably has the lightsaber advantage, with better feats in general. But it's interesting to consider Ventress's final fights with her ex-master Dooku in Dark Disciple and Zannah's fights with her ex-master Bane--which had a greater gap between them and their master in sabers?

And Zannah has the advantage in a sorcery/force combo, and probably in an overall fight.

This is probably EU Ventress, not canon.

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PedroLopesMateus

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@owie: Dark Disciple is canon-only. Ventress backstory in the EU is even incompatible with TCW (2008).

That said, I haven't read Darth Bane trilogy so can't comment on this battle.

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Famousroman

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Ventress has really strong PT scaling, but because of who she as, a continuous opponent to Anakin, Obi Wan, Mace Windu, etc, she has to be competitive with them, and because we know she is considered a threat, and a competent apprentice, she can't lose against them, so she's always in that conversation with them, but I'm not sure that puts her on the level to best a 20 year trained Sith Lord, who managed to defeat Darth Bane.

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frozen

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#13 frozen  Moderator

Isn’t Zannah buried under RoT scaling?

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A_FINE_EDITION

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#14  Edited By A_FINE_EDITION

@frozen: I'd assume so. She's right at the start of the Rule.

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Greysentinel365

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Ventress stomps. Mismatch

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Famousroman

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RedSithDisciple

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@famousroman: It can be a stomp if you scale Ventress to or over TPM Maul

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Famousroman

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@famousroman: It can be a stomp if you scale Ventress to or over TPM Maul

Because TPM Maul > any Sith ever, including Kun, the Sheev fill in and Vitiate, the demi-god bullshit final boss?

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RedSithDisciple

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#19  Edited By RedSithDisciple

@famousroman: No the quote is bound only to the Sith who lived during/after 2000 BBY, but Zannah would still fall into that timeframe

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Famousroman

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@famousroman: No the quote is bound only to the Sith who lived during/after 2000 BBY, but Zannah would still fall into that timeframe

Do you have that quote on you? Mind you, TPM Maul being above Bane, for example, is extremely counterintuitive considering the comments certain creators have made regarding Bane and his stance in the Sith line as a whole.

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RedSithDisciple

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@famousroman:

Star Wars: Ultimate Duels
Star Wars: Ultimate Duels

For reference, DK, the publisher of this source, believes the Sith Order began with Ruin's era, which was around 2000 years before TPM.

DK- Complete Visual Dictionary
DK- Complete Visual Dictionary

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Famousroman

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#22  Edited By Famousroman
@redsithdisciple said:

@famousroman:

Star Wars: Ultimate Duels
Star Wars: Ultimate Duels

For reference, DK, the publisher of this source, believes the Sith Order began with Ruin's era, which was around 2000 years before TPM.

DK- Complete Visual Dictionary
DK- Complete Visual Dictionary

Thanks, appreciate it. But Zannah isn't part of that quote then. That quote, from what I'm reading, could be Lucasian and old enough to not even know of Bane yet, from what I recall. And as you said, it regards the Sith as a 2000-year-old group, started by a not-yet-named Darth Ruin, so really, it's meant to cover all the Sith in their eyes. So tell me when this quote is from and if it mentions Bane and Zannah in enough detail please?

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RedSithDisciple

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@famousroman: Ultimate Duels was released in 2011, and the Darth Bane trilogy released in 2006-2009 so it should be bound to them. As far as mentions in Ultimate Duels itself, I don't think there are any but that shouldn't deter the quote much if at all.

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Famousroman

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@famousroman: Ultimate Duels was released in 2011, and the Darth Bane trilogy released in 2006-2009 so it should be bound to them. As far as mentions in Ultimate Duels itself, I don't think there are any but that shouldn't deter the quote much if at all.

So is Ultimate Duels part of DK or not then? Because what I said, based on what you told me about how they view/talk about the timeline, would still apply.

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Greysentinel365

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#25  Edited By Greysentinel365

@greysentinel365 said:

Ventress stomps. Mismatch

Why, how?

Ventress has far better feats and scaling. Not only does she scale above an army of Mauls, Maul himself scaling over Zannah massively but her feats are miles better, contending with a Skywalker above that which deflected the Theta Storm, a Kenobi above the Zigoola nexus and conending and pushing people like Mace and being stated above GG in some sources.

There really is zero arguments for Zannah here.

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Famousroman

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@famousroman said:
@greysentinel365 said:

Ventress stomps. Mismatch

Why, how?

Ventress has far better feats and scaling. Not only does she scale above an army of Mauls, Maul himself scaling over Zannah massively but her feats are miles better, contending with a Skywalker above that which deflected the Theta Storm, a Kenobi above the Zigoola nexus and conending and pushing people like Mace and being stated above GG in some sources.

There really is zero arguments for Zannah here.

Well, the argument is really just "Zannah fought pre-prime Anakin a lot" and "Maul benefits from really weird supremacy quotes", without actually being as strong as anybody who actually scales over Bane, yeah?

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Greysentinel365

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@greysentinel365 said:
@famousroman said:
@greysentinel365 said:

Ventress stomps. Mismatch

Why, how?

Ventress has far better feats and scaling. Not only does she scale above an army of Mauls, Maul himself scaling over Zannah massively but her feats are miles better, contending with a Skywalker above that which deflected the Theta Storm, a Kenobi above the Zigoola nexus and conending and pushing people like Mace and being stated above GG in some sources.

There really is zero arguments for Zannah here.

Well, the argument is really just "Zannah fought pre-prime Anakin a lot" and "Maul benefits from really weird supremacy quotes", without actually being as strong as anybody who actually scales over Bane, yeah?

Considering even 13 year old Anakin was being compared to sentient planets in power and scales to a Kenobi who was as powerful as TPM Jinn&Kenobi combined, both of whom were capable of casual midichlorian manipulation which evaded Plagueis who blatantly outpowers Bane there really is no more argument needed.

The entire narrative purpose of Bane is that he sets up the RoT and then becomes its first victim and that it works. As all the statements state it does. Even the two quotes above, the DK one is simply echoing Lucas who flat states the Sith went away trained and came back stronger than ever. That's baked into Mauls narrative and PT. But the second quote is from 2011. Banes trilogy concluded in 2009. So its absolutely including him. Even the quotes in the thread I linked are post DB trilogy.

There are zero avenues for Zannah here.

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RedSithDisciple

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#28  Edited By RedSithDisciple

@famousroman: Ultimate Duels was published by DK, the DK brand is even on the book's cover

No Caption Provided

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Famousroman

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@famousroman: Ultimate Duels was published by DK, the DK brand is even on the book's cover

No Caption Provided

So my points stands then? Maul is the best in a verse that ignores EU lore?

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RedSithDisciple

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@famousroman: That was the republished version, I edited in the original. But the point does still stand, a quote that is bound to Zannah states Maul to be better.

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Famousroman

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@famousroman said:
@greysentinel365 said:
@famousroman said:
@greysentinel365 said:

Ventress stomps. Mismatch

Why, how?

Ventress has far better feats and scaling. Not only does she scale above an army of Mauls, Maul himself scaling over Zannah massively but her feats are miles better, contending with a Skywalker above that which deflected the Theta Storm, a Kenobi above the Zigoola nexus and conending and pushing people like Mace and being stated above GG in some sources.

There really is zero arguments for Zannah here.

Well, the argument is really just "Zannah fought pre-prime Anakin a lot" and "Maul benefits from really weird supremacy quotes", without actually being as strong as anybody who actually scales over Bane, yeah?

Considering even 13 year old Anakin was being compared to sentient planets in power and scales to a Kenobi who was as powerful as TPM Jinn&Kenobi combined, both of whom were capable of casual midichlorian manipulation which evaded Plagueis who blatantly outpowers Bane there really is no more argument needed.

The entire narrative purpose of Bane is that he sets up the RoT and then becomes its first victim and that it works. As all the statements state it does. Even the two quotes above, the DK one is simply echoing Lucas who flat states the Sith went away trained and came back stronger than ever. That's baked into Mauls narrative and PT. But the second quote is from 2011. Banes trilogy concluded in 2009. So its absolutely including him. Even the quotes in the thread I linked are post DB trilogy.

There are zero avenues for Zannah here.

Asajj was never as powerful as Anakin. AOTC Anakin could demonstrate power on the level of Yoda, and Asajj has, as far as I'm aware, never ever clashed and bested Anakin in a power struggle of any kind. She has dueled him, and she has chocked him, sure. Those things aren't indicators of power.

Plagueis is also meant to be a Sidious peer per Luceno, so I'm not so sure I even care about that point.

And no, the entire point of the ROT is to create Sidious, the grand plan, to kill the Jedi. Maul played a small part in that, a part in which he failed, since he got killed by Obi Wan lol.

I find it hard to believe that there are no avenues for Zannah here when you can't even actually argue Asajj is better than TPM Maul. You can argue fights here and there, certain bits of scaling, but skill scaling doesn't work, since that's not Zannah fights wins in the first place. She can fight Bane, a guy above practically everybody ever in skill up until Maul himself, so...

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#32 frozen  Moderator

13 year old Anakin is > TPM duo?

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Famousroman

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@frozen said:

13 year old Anakin is > TPM duo?

Obi Wan says Anakin is as good as anybody he's ever seen, or some such. It's as about as useless as it sounds if you ask me. But CV people use whatever exists, so

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#34 frozen  Moderator

@frozen said:

13 year old Anakin is > TPM duo?

Obi Wan says Anakin is as good as anybody he's ever seen, or some such. It's as about as useless as it sounds if you ask me. But CV people use whatever exists, so

Surprised I haven’t seen any 13 year old Anakin > EU Suit Vader chains floating around then. Obviously I don’t agree with them, but if Lucas genuinely saw Vader as sub Jinn, and a 13 year old Anakin is above that, the implications are very funny and out there.

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Greysentinel365

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@famousroman:

Asajj was never as powerful as Anakin.

She is actually. On several occasions. There meeting on Yavin even resulted in Skywalker being utterly thrashed until he called on the dark side and they frequently stalemate after that.

he has dueled him, and she has chocked him, sure. Those things aren't indicators of power.

In Legends in requires comparable power to affect the other fighter due to passive barriers.

And no, the entire point of the ROT is to create Sidious, the grand plan, to kill the Jedi. Maul played a small part in that, a part in which he failed, since he got killed by Obi Wan lol.

Exactly and Maul per several sources is a near equal of Sidious and his superior with the blade by TPM. Even then Maul was able to push Sididous to desperation in the fight with him while amped on Mustafar in a timeframe in which Hego and Sheev were equals and Plagueis ahd surpassed Tenebrous who does benefit from the scaling. Maul is then stated in no uncertain terms to grow only more powerful than that state. So there's zero escape for Bane there.

I find it hard to believe that there are no avenues for Zannah here when you can't even actually argue Asajj is better than TPM Maul.

She repeatedly beats up the guy that blitzed him.

but skill scaling doesn't work, since that's not Zannah fights wins in the first place. She can fight Bane, a guy above practically everybody ever in skill up until Maul himself, so...

Bane has no saber accolades that can't also be attributed to people like start of TFU Marek who gets stalemated in skill by Kota who is a nobody in the PT.

Again theres zero avenues for Zannah here. If there is feel free to make the argument so we can debunk it and lock this mismatch of a thread.

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Famousroman

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@frozen said:
@famousroman said:
@frozen said:

13 year old Anakin is > TPM duo?

Obi Wan says Anakin is as good as anybody he's ever seen, or some such. It's as about as useless as it sounds if you ask me. But CV people use whatever exists, so

Surprised I haven’t seen any 13 year old Anakin > EU Suit Vader chains floating around then. Obviously I don’t agree with them, but if Lucas genuinely saw Vader as sub Jinn, and a 13 year old Anakin is above that, the implications are very funny and out there.

Well, implications could be literally anything if that's how the quotes goes. We'd see Anakin > Yoda in no time.

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Famousroman

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@greysentinel365:

"In Legends in requires comparable power to affect the other fighter due to passive barriers."

She's above his passive barrier, great news.

"Exactly and Maul per several sources is a near equal of Sidious and his superior with the blade by TPM. Even then Maul was able to push Sididous to desperation in the fight with him while amped on Mustafar in a timeframe in which Hego and Sheev were equals and Plagueis ahd surpassed Tenebrous who does benefit from the scaling. Maul is then stated in no uncertain terms to grow only more powerful than that state. So there's zero escape for Bane there."

Many quotes this, many sources that, he's not close to Sidious, and never will be. None of these things are ever actualized, and there is an obvious and clear reason for that.

"She repeatedly beats up the guy that blitzed him."

Huh?

"Bane has no saber accolades that can't also be attributed to people like start of TFU Marek who gets stalemated in skill by Kota who is a nobody in the PT."

Bane surpassed Kas'im 20 years before his prime lol. Asajj did what, dueled pre-prime Anakin, pre-prime Obi Wan, got stomped by Dooku here and there, fought S4 Maul I think, lost to Plo Koon that one time, what else ya got?

I could've sworn skill not mattering since that's not how she fights, but sure. I'm curious to see how the emotionally unstable Asajj will deal with spells of madness and what not.

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Famousroman

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@famousroman: That was the republished version, I edited in the original. But the point does still stand, a quote that is bound to Zannah states Maul to be better.

Zannah is completely ignored per the writers and the timeline, and so is most other EU content that matters? Did you not say this?

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RedSithDisciple

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@famousroman: I showed you already, the quote is bound to all Sith who lived within 2000 years before TPM, and Zannah falls in that time frame.

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Famousroman

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@famousroman: I showed you already, the quote is bound to all Sith who lived within 2000 years before TPM, and Zannah falls in that time frame.

This does not answer my question? And per what you said, all Sith ever, to them, fall inside this 2000 year time span lol

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#41  Edited By RedSithDisciple

@famousroman: I did not say Zannah was ignored, I never even remotely implied that, what I told you is that the writers don't take the Sith before Ruin's Era into account as they believe the Sith Order started during Ruin's Era. You initially doubted the quote, making claims about Exar Kun, Revan, and Vitiate, and I proved how the quote didn't include them which is why it should still be valid. In case you need a reminder,

@redsithdisciple said:

@famousroman:

Star Wars: Ultimate Duels
Star Wars: Ultimate Duels

For reference, DK, the publisher of this source, believes the Sith Order began with Ruin's era, which was around 2000 years before TPM.

DK- Complete Visual Dictionary
DK- Complete Visual Dictionary

So like I said before, the quote is in fact bound to Zannah as she falls within this criteria

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Famousroman

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@redsithdisciple:

"For reference, DK, the publisher of this source, believes the Sith Order began with Ruin's era, which was around 2000 years before TPM."

That is what you said. That does not mean it's only the NSW to them, that means that Rui started the Sith, and that it's entire history took place in 2000 years, from what I can tell. I'd like to also know where this is from by the way, their views and comments on the matter.

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@famousroman:

Many quotes this, many sources that, he's not close to Sidious, and never will be. None of these things are ever actualized, and there is an obvious and clear reason for that.

Pretty sure you're just trolling now.

Huh?

Yep.

Bane surpassed Kas'im 20 years before his prime lol. Asajj did what, dueled pre-prime Anakin, pre-prime Obi Wan, got stomped by Dooku here and there, fought S4 Maul I think, lost to Plo Koon that one time, what else ya got?

Kas'im only has one IU quote that he's the best of his time due to "perfecting" lightsaber combat. Which is the same accolades people like Kota and Maul get. All of the people you listed here are more skilled than Bane.

I could've sworn skill not mattering since that's not how she fights, but sure. I'm curious to see how the emotionally unstable Asajj will deal with spells of madness and what not.

Zannahs spells have been a solved equation for years. If she tries it on Ventress she's just gonna fling herself into a wall and then get killed lol

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RedSithDisciple

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#44  Edited By RedSithDisciple

@famousroman: That doesn't mean it's bound to Sith who lived before, like if someone writes a history book and believes the world's history starts in 1 A.D., whatever information is put in that book is not going to bind to the B.C. era.

I cited the source in the caption, it's the Ultimate Visual Dictionary

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Famousroman

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@famousroman:

Many quotes this, many sources that, he's not close to Sidious, and never will be. None of these things are ever actualized, and there is an obvious and clear reason for that.

Pretty sure you're just trolling now.

Huh?

Yep.

Bane surpassed Kas'im 20 years before his prime lol. Asajj did what, dueled pre-prime Anakin, pre-prime Obi Wan, got stomped by Dooku here and there, fought S4 Maul I think, lost to Plo Koon that one time, what else ya got?

Kas'im only has one IU quote that he's the best of his time due to "perfecting" lightsaber combat. Which is the same accolades people like Kota and Maul get. All of the people you listed here are more skilled than Bane.

I could've sworn skill not mattering since that's not how she fights, but sure. I'm curious to see how the emotionally unstable Asajj will deal with spells of madness and what not.

Zannahs spells have been a solved equation for years. If she tries it on Ventress she's just gonna fling herself into a wall and then get killed lol

I'm sure you can show me pre-TPM Maul pushing Sidious that one time, and then I can show you all the other times that doesn't happen, and how Sidious is supreme and all that jazz. Is that the road we going down now?

That's a "idk wtf you're saying" huh.

Kas'im has an "all time" quote, not sure Kota and Maul get supremacy dueling/skill quotes? And yeah, more skilled because you said so, or more skilled for an actual proper reason?

That's fine, knives have too. They still work to this day and age. In fact, in SW, poisons have also been solved, many Sith and Jedi have died to them as well lol. Not even going to mention blasters. If she tries it on Asajj, she's gonna have a fit thinking about her master and how she hates Dooku and shit, because she's batshit crazy lol.

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Famousroman

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@famousroman: That doesn't mean it's bound to Sith who lived before, like if someone writes a history book and believes the world's history starts in 1 A.D., whatever information is put in that book is not going to bind to the B.C. era.

I cited the source in the caption, it's the DK Ultimate Visual Dictionary

That's not what I believe they are though lol. If to them, the Sith started on 2000 BBY, and not before, that just means we would see Adas, Dathka, and the Jedi Exiles at the start of it, and not that they get erased from the timeline lol

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#47  Edited By RedSithDisciple

@famousroman: That is essentially how it works, if they believe the Sith had their absolute beginning during Ruin's Era, it's much more likely they simply disregard what happens before rather than completely changing the timeline and moving everything millenniums ahead of their actual place. Similar to how Sozin seals off the rest of the Fire Lord tombs not in an attempt to move historical events move around in the timeline, but to simply have history start with himself instead and ignore what happens before.

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Famousroman

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@famousroman: That is essentially how it works, if they believe the Sith had their absolute beginning during Ruin's Era, it's much more likely they simply disregard what happens before rather than completely changing the timeline and moving everything millenniums ahead of their actual place. Similar to how Sozin seals off the rest of the Fire Lord tombs not in an attempt to move historical events move around in the timeline, but to simply have history start with himself instead and ignore what happens before.

Look, I gave you my take on the quote, we disagree. But now you just told me that quote completely disregards EU lore, which means I believe the quote even less, since that is exatcly what Zannah and EU Bane are.

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#49  Edited By RedSithDisciple

@famousroman: If the writers choose to disregard irrelevant lore, that doesn't mitigate the source's validity in the slightest for lore it is bound to, adding that this practice is completely approved by the LFL.

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Famousroman

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@famousroman: If the writers choose to disregard irrelevant lore, that doesn't mitigate the source's validity in the slightest, as this practice is in fact approved by the LFL.

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Both are EU as far as I'm aware, and to me, that author ignoring lore 100% affects the validity of the quote. It means that he didn't even consider something when the quote was being written. How is that not valuable to you?