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#1 Posted by TonyMartial (9784 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2 Edited by Stalin-Is-Steel (3586 posts) - - Show Bio

At their best, with no suit or Herb? Cap wins then.

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#3 Posted by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

T’Challa through scaling.

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#4 Posted by King-Ragnar (4219 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve smashes his arm through the table.

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#5 Posted by reaverlation (25881 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve stopped Thanos fist with Infinity Gauntlet with multiple stones. Steve throws T'Challa through the planet

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#6 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio

Ffs...

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#7 Posted by Eeef (2122 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap smashes his arm into the ground.

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#8 Posted by Kevd4wg (12798 posts) - - Show Bio

You can make an argument through scaling from MCU Cap and Bucky, but honestly I’m not sure. It’s not a stomp either way, but I’d back 616 Cap due to consistnt quantifiable feats

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#9 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

You can make an argument through scaling from MCU Cap and Bucky, but honestly I’m not sure. It’s not a stomp either way, but I’d back 616 Cap due to consistnt quantifiable feats

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#10 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@stalin-is-steel: Why wouldn't black panther have the herb? And how does the suit help in arm wrestling?

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#11 Posted by Stalin-Is-Steel (3586 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: OP doesn't state that Panther has the herb, and he's gone without it at times. I'm not going to assume that he has it unless the OP states otherwise.

The suit can potentially help with leverage as it stops the hand from getting sweaty in a extended lock up which can result in a weaker grip or the hand slipping off. It happens a surprising amount of times, actually.

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#12 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@stalin-is-steel: Why does the op need to state he has the herb? He's only "gone without it" in ritual combat. That's like me saying "cap has gone without the super soldier serum in the past and I'm not gonna assume he has it unless stated"....

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#13 Edited by Stalin-Is-Steel (3586 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: That's how it works. Blame Tony's lazy thread for the lack of detail, it doesn't even make the bare minimum for battle threads. I'm not going to assume he has the herb if it's not there.

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#14 Edited by deactivated-5b8a3b8a2f17f (819 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve given his reputation of hand to hand combat ........

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#15 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve given his reputation of hand to hand combat ........

Why does that matter in an arm-wrestling contest?

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#16 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@stalin-is-steel: Um no...We assume current versions if not specified. Current mcu black panther has the herb.

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#17 Posted by deactivated-5b8a3b8a2f17f (819 posts) - - Show Bio

Since both sets of characters have more or less same physic and body strength then it relies upon skills or fts where cap flourishes through hand to hand combat.....

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#18 Posted by TheKinfing (11793 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther handily.

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#19 Posted by Thorthunder98 (6804 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: That's how it works. Blame Tony's lazy thread for the lack of detail, it doesn't even make the bare minimum for battle threads. I'm not going to assume he has the herb if it's not there.

As if you're trying to tell the most well known (ex) battle mods on this site how the site works LMAO!

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#20 Posted by JediXMan (42744 posts) - - Show Bio

@stalin-is-steel:

It goes without saying that Jash - a former battle mod, and one of the best - knows the rules. He's spot on. I recommend you refamiliarize yourself with the rules.

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#21 Posted by buildhare (8715 posts) - - Show Bio

Panther easy.

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#22 Posted by Lan_Fan (14966 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America.

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#23 Posted by LDM (5362 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap

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#24 Posted by Sy8000 (35496 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm tempted to say MCU Super Soldiers are 5 or so times stronger than 616 Cap TBH.

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#25 Posted by CreoleCuddy (730 posts) - - Show Bio

Kind of question is this? Cap, hands down.

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#26 Posted by TheKinfing (11793 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000 said:

I'm tempted to say MCU Super Soldiers are 5 or so times stronger than 616 Cap TBH.

Please do it.

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#27 Posted by TonyMartial (9784 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#28 Posted by The_Magister (14305 posts) - - Show Bio

An arm wrestle? T'Challa.

Steve would decisively beat him in h2h though.

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#29 Edited by omriamar (7068 posts) - - Show Bio

MCU Cap is in 5-10 ton range way over 616 who is considered in the 500 ibs - 2 ton by his oun guide book I’m sure he has outliers but that is his official strength in a consistent way

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#30 Posted by KrleAvenger (26082 posts) - - Show Bio

I was actually gonna say MCU T'Challa is stronger, but after taking a look at his feats again, plus comparing them to the ones 616 Cap preformed, I changed my mind. Mostly the reason why scaling with Bucky is flawed is because, in their first fight when T'Challa was about to strike and kill Bucky, Barnes was able to stop his attack with both of his arms, including his non metal arm. And when Cap fought T'Challa, the latter struggled to overpower him while he was defending himself when he used both of his arms, something Bucky was able to do with his metal arm before quite casually even when Cap used his entire body to try and break free, not just his arms.

When it comes to Bucky's feat itself, I'm pretty sure that when Bucky grabbed T'Chally by the neck, he was pushing his backwards and overpowered him. Before T'Challa actually overpowered the grip, he used his leg to hold Bucky (by the rib I think) and then stopped him from pushing T'Challa forward. So it has more to do with T'Challa's skill than raw strength, especially because Bucky wasn't as aggressive, hence saying "I didn't kill your father", while against Rogers, he was bloodlusted and mind controlled. It's still an impressive showing of strength, however given the context provided, plus his later showing with Cap and previous fight with Bucky kinda makes scaling a questionable source IMO.

When it comes to Cap's helicopter feat, Russo Bros confirmed that he preformed that feat due to similar adrenalin rush a mother gets when she lifts a car to save her baby. That's way beyond his regular levels so scaling does not apply to Bucky either. While 616 Cap's helicopter feat isn't as noticeable due to the fact that the helicopter he dealt with was like what, 2x less heavy? But he still did it pretty casually with almost zero effort. And besides that, it's not like 616 Cap never overpowered extremely strong characters before, even tho they have better feats than he does. However I'm opened to a discussion in case someone disagrees with my interpretation of this. I'm all yours.

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#31 Posted by BruceRogers (17467 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol...

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#32 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000 said:

I'm tempted to say MCU Super Soldiers are 5 or so times stronger than 616 Cap TBH.

please do. Then prove it

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#33 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27904 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap,

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#34 Edited by ANTHP2000 (27904 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger:

When it comes to Cap's helicopter feat, Russo Bros confirmed that he preformed that feat due to similar adrenalin rush a mother gets when she lifts a car to save her baby.

Do you have the srouce? Was it in the CA:CW commentary?

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#35 Posted by SocaJunkie (8673 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000 said:

I'm tempted to say MCU Super Soldiers are 5 or so times stronger than 616 Cap TBH.

Please just be meme-ing.

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#36 Posted by Sy8000 (35496 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000 said:

I'm tempted to say MCU Super Soldiers are 5 or so times stronger than 616 Cap TBH.

Please just be meme-ing.

10 tons is a reasonable estimate for some of his feats. Granted those would be high end, but I think they're still much stronger.

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#37 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger:

When it comes to Cap's helicopter feat, Russo Bros confirmed that he preformed that feat due to similar adrenalin rush a mother gets when she lifts a car to save her baby.

Do you have the srouce? Was it in the CA:CW commentary?

“He’s hanging onto that helicopter for an extremely passionate reason,” says Joe Russo. “In stories you’ll read where a mother will lift a car off a child. There’s something very important happening in that scene and for us it really represented his struggle as a character, one man pitted against a helicopter that’s trying to take off. Can he stop it? And what are the limits of his strength? For us, it’s one of the most powerful shots in the movie and it’s Chris Evans, who works very hard to physically exemplify this character. On set, we had him straining against a crane holding this helicopter, and you have this fantastic shot of his muscles bulging and you can feel the pain and the energy and the determination as he tries to stop this thing.”

https://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/captain-america-civil-war-trailer-breakdown/

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#38 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27904 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by TonyMartial (9784 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Everyone is trying their hardest in this arm wrestle.

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#41 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Everyone is trying their hardest in this arm wrestle.

What do you mean by that?

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#42 Posted by TonyMartial (9784 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Edited by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: So Steves feat is applicable.

Steve's feat isn't about effort. Its about adrenaline.

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#44 Posted by SocaJunkie (8673 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000 said:

10 tons is a reasonable estimate for some of his feats. Granted those would be high end, but I think they're still much stronger.

The metal rung he deadlifted off Bucky in TWS was broken down and calc'd at 9 tons but again that's deadlifting so therefore surely wouldn't be 5x higher than 616 Cap's high ends or even higher at all.

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#45 Posted by Sy8000 (35496 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000 said:

10 tons is a reasonable estimate for some of his feats. Granted those would be high end, but I think they're still much stronger.

The metal rung he deadlifted off Bucky in TWS was broken down and calc'd at 9 tons but again that's deadlifting so therefore surely wouldn't be 5x higher than 616 Cap's high ends or even higher at all.

I don't know what 616 Cap's high ends would be. But I definitely don't think he's consistently on that level.

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#46 Posted by KrleAvenger (26082 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Sorry, Jash beat me to it. Yeah, that's the one. Although if you don't want to spend time quoting that, I have a screen shot right here:

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Just in case it's easier for you to post a scan than to copy/paste-quote something. But yeah, based on this, you can't scale helicopter feat off of Cap and apply it to Bucky's metal arm, and by the same token, for Black Panther, But regardless, I don't think T'Challa is stronger than Bucky's metal arm based on things I brought up above.

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#47 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27904 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger:

I think your reasoning makes sense. There's also this moment from his fight with Steve later on, which I believe wasn't included in the final cut, where he seems to slightly overpower him, so collectively, I'd say T'Challa is stronger than Cap and comparable to Bucky's metal arm - but I doubt he can consistently just overpower the latter, that would be inconsistent, and I think choreography implied it took skill as well. Keep in mind that Bucky overpowered Steve's entire body strength with his bionic arm alone a bit earlier.

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#48 Posted by blackpantherisb (7266 posts) - - Show Bio

616 Cap solidly.

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#49 Edited by KrleAvenger (26082 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Sorry for longer post. I thought it would be pretty short but I just had more things to say.

which I believe wasn't included in the final cut, where he seems to slightly overpower him

You are correct. I re-watched the airport scene before posting that comment yesterday and that part is composed of two shots. First one being T'Challa pushing the shield downward, and the second shot being Cap's face up-close.

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And if you re-watch the scene, you will see that only the first shot makes the final cut. We don't see the second one with Cap's face and the shield being pulled downward even further. So based on the final cut, T'Challa didn't actually overpower Cap. The first shot (the only one that made the final cut) shows Cap stopping T'Challa's assault. What we see later is War Machine pulling his weapon out and the second shot with Cap is T'Challa kicking him and sending him backwards without even touching the shield.

so collectively, I'd say T'Challa is stronger than Cap and comparable to Bucky's metal arm

I disagree simply because he never overpowered him on screen. But even if we take that cut shot at face value, I still wouldn't say T'Challa is outright stronger than Cap. Based on the way strength is used, one can overpower the other depending on a situation if your strength is comparable. Unless you strait up humiliate your opponent or do something as ridiculous that is not even debatable, like Bucky overpowering Cap's entire body with just his arm, I don't think it strait up proves you are stronger.

T'Challa just pushed Cap's arms downward while grabbing his shield, but the way he overpowered him wasn't extremely drastic or one-sided. He just pushed him downward, and that by itself doesn't mean he is strait up stronger than Rogers. Bucky was able to stop T'Challa's "going for the kill" assault even with his regular arm, which should be equal to Cap in strength.

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So I wouldn't say he is comparable to Bucky's metal arm either. During their airplane fight, T'Challa was going for the kill while Bucky wanted to tell him he didn't kill his father. They had different mindset, and despite what some people may say, mindset is extremely important in battles, especially the ones that require skill. When Bucky held T'Challa by the neck, he also used his regular arm to restrain T'Challa's other arm and push him backwards. The only reason why T'Challa overpowered the grip was because he used his leg to stop Bucky. Bucky told him he didn't kill his father which gave T'Challa a moment he needed to overpower the grip. But one thing people miss is that, by the time T'Challa started to move Bucky's hand to the side, Bucky immediately broke T'Challa's own grip quite casually.

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Prior to it, T'Challa couldn't break the grip to his neck and got pushed backwards (if you find a slow motion version you will see this), until he used his leg to stop Bucky's movement. And even after that, he needed a moment to find his balance prior to the dialogue.

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You can also see (in the gif prior to the one above) that T'Challa actually overpowered Bucky's non metal arm with his own. The same non metal arm Bucky actually used to stop T'Challa's assault during their first fight and prevent his arms from moving an inch closer to his face. And for the record, there are a handful of instances when Bucky actually used either his metal arm, or his non metal arm to actually block and counter T'Challa's strikes, something he shouldn't be able to do with his regular arm if T'Challa's strength was actually comparable to, or superior to his metal arm. And skill wouldn't be a factor IMO because T'Challa is a better fighter than Bucky.

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You could also argue that T'Challa used his ring (which apparently has magnetic properties) to overpower the grip. Since he used his right arm to do so, the arm he actually wields the ring on and the same ring he actually used on Bucky before. Although this could be a stretch and I'm just bringing up all the possibilities and letting you decide. It's still worth mentioning, especially because when T'Challa "overpowered" Bucky's grip, it made similar sound effect to the one we saw when this happened:

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Regardless, my point is that, Bucky was able to use his regular arm to block T'Challa's strikes and was even able to stop his killing blow using his regular arm as well. By the same token, T'Challa was actually able to overpower Bucky's regular arm as well. Bucky (without his metal arm) is comparable to Rogers in strength, and T'Challa did nothing more to Rogers than move his arms and shield downward, and not doing it very easily. It was also cut from theatrical release and again, by the same token, you can say Rogers was able to use his strength to stop T'Challa's assault and prevent him from pushing him downward, since only the first shot made the final cut.

At the end of the day, I would say Cap, T'Challa and Bucky (without metal arm) are equally strong, and anyone can overpower the other based on situation, circumstances and overall how you apply skill in fights. I already addressed T'Challa overpowering the metal arm. At the end of the day, I don't think any of them are as strong as 616 Cap, even less stronger. I'm not gonna count Bucky's metal arm because it's a bit difficult to quantify exactly how strong it is, since it relies on scaling (valid scaling yes, but still hard to measure).

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#50 Edited by ANTHP2000 (27904 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger:

I think our disagreement has to do with wether or not this moment from the trailer is canon to the film. There are several deleted and alternate scenes that didn't make it to the movie but are actually "canon" - it's hard to call them canon because, technically, some of then never took place in the continuity, however they are legimate as the directors/writers wanted them to happen.

I don't know about this particular showing, but there's a good chance it wasn't included due to time issues, or that it happened while Rhodey was on-screen instead. I doubt they filmed it and then said "we decided Cap won't struggle with T'Challa because they're just as strong". I mean, it's rather consistent with Steve not handling the metal arm nearly as well in the past as T'Challa always did, no?

I do, however, agree on your take on the mindset difference and its effect in combat, 100% true.