Arkham Batman vs Kingpin (PS4)

I'm sorry, is something preventing Batman from utilizing his gear?

What gear stops Kingpin? Freeze Grenades can be dodged by average thugs within eyesight/don't work on larger foes. Batclaw is garbage and larger thugs can drag Batman in and get a free shot as per Knight. Batarangs are annoying but don't do much either unless Fisk stands there, even then they can't KO larger thugs or Titan guys. What's the killer gadget that gets him the win, exactly?

Where have I ever stated that Batman beats Fisk "in punches"? Although he would, it'd simply take him more punches than it took Spidey, never mind that Spidey pulls his punches

By what measure was Spidey pulling his punches? Can you quantify how much he was against Fisk, especially given there is no narrative or gameplay option backing your option up here? Was it by 20%, by half, by 80%, what exactly?

Combination of all of the above, plus explosives, tasers, and Bats' stunning cape. And Freeze Grenades dowork on "larger foes"

Huh? Explosives? The same ones that large Thugs in Knight can no sell? Tasers? When has Batman used that outside of his gloves in Origins? His REC? That Freeze Grenade worked because it was a enhanced combo variation, which Batman doesn't have access to in normal conditions.

Enough not to kill him. Meaning a lot, seeing as he can trade blows with Rhino

"trade blows" is a bit of a high-ender there. He does nothing to Rhino in the base game, loses in the DLC, etc. Rhino is stronger than him regardless of him holding back or not. Fisk being sent flying from his punches suggests that Pete wasn't holding back a lot, especially considering how he treats regular thugs to him.

if gear is included and you not try to find context on gameplay mechanics batman wins

Is context a bad thing now?

no but i dont see the reason of why taking it into account when its just how the game works also becuase in case with the arkham games it varies from player to player who gets hit and what not

@professorrespect: there is a few cutscenes or cinematics when he uses them

@professorrespect: how its next to zero exactly he uses them against thugs or tyger guards pretty efficiently

Yes. Btw. where was the last time Fisk has handled an explosion of any kind?

Spidey doesn't have explosives so this is a bit of a pointless question. If a generic large thug can take quickfire gel, someone like Fisk who is substantially stronger and more durable wouldn't have issues. The enhanced Freeze Grenade and whatnot aren't standard gear for Batman unless he's just casually pulling them out in cutscenes, which he isn't.

Nothing except hurting him

When he was stunned already? Rhino no sells him a few seconds later and gets back to work.

knocking him down

Again, while he's already stunned. He has no issues getting back up and sending him flying.

Pete losing to Rhino in the DLC is pure PIS

Not really, he just got a bad hand when facing him. It happens.

when he was handling him and Scorpion simultaneously in the main game

By using their offence against them and then trapping the lads in a container. He never beat them physically.

I don't know what you're trying to say. Pete regularly sends common thugs flying with his punches

Not to the degree in which Peter was throwing him around Fisk Tower, especially near the end.

It's all meaningless anyway. Pete does pull his punches, so pretending like Fisk can just tank his hits

I mean....he did that. There's no way around it. Peter was holding back to a unquantified degree but he clearly wasn't half-assing it either.

no problem is NLF. Meanwhile Bats can one-shot Deathstroke

Oh right, so Rhino knocking Spidey out after a prolonged battle is PIS, but the shitty tank section that was clearly rushed and universally panned isn't? It just makes Slade look like a unskilled dumbass.

Since there's no cutscene indicating that Bats acquired better grenades

This isn't how that works! You need to prove that isn't just something he could pull out at any time (which if he could, it would've been real helpful anywhere in Knight)

Oh, and I forgot about this gem

The fact that he himself states that it was the last one of that specific kind left, as well as the fact that this is completely invalidated by Knight in that Croc no sells these in action via Knight gameplay invalidates this completely. It's not standard gear. Regular Freeze Blasts were never this effective either as similarly sized guys like the Titan monsters don't get frozen.

And since you hadn't addressed the taser bit, I'm going to assume you concede this point.I'm going to assume you concede this point

Because Batman doesn't use the Shock Gloves now? He hasn't since Origins, which was years and years ago. It's definitely not something he would have here, especially given the OP.

I wasn't aware that being stunned makes you less durable

Being stunned means you aren't braced for the shot, which makes it more effective. Bracing is a obvious aspect when it comes to durability because sneak attacks and sucker punches can do a lot more damage than just up and up punching: which is what Batman relies on when using the cape to unsteady his opponents, and it's what Pete does there by ambushing him with environment attacks: that's the whole point of the fight.

Except he was winning against Rhino, as blatantly stated by Scorpion

Yet he has to BFR the pair inside a box despite him winning and Rhino was still in the running given he was able to knock around Scorpion right afterwards. If he was winning so well, how come he lost in the DLC then? It can't be PIS, because he's already failed to handle him physically once without other means. If they wanted to show Rhino was weaker than Spidey, they would've, you know, shown it like everyone else.

Seeing Spidey's strength feats, it's blatantly obvious he was holding back to a ridiculous degree

There's no evidence of this in the fight. Spidey's hitting him the same as everyone else and there's no real tell that shows that he's holding back to any quantifiable degree apart from a general statement.

Spidey was able to gain the upper hand over Rhino

But lost once and couldn't finish him despite said "upper hand" + Scorpion friendly fire.

I fail to see how "the shitty tank section" being shitty (which, admittedly, it was) relates to Deathstroke's durability

Because it's poorly written and embarrassedly low-end for this version of Slade?

And Bats has already beaten Slade more than once at this point

Not in a singular shot in full gear, obviously, and I don't recall Batman's strength being augmented dozens of times beyond his Origin stuff either.

That's exactly how it works. There's one type of those grenades and I've shown their effectiveness. Keep hiding behind game mechanics

He literally says it's the last one he was given, so how can this be standard? Croc has outright no sold these as per the games themselves so the idea that we just accept this feat doesn't really make much sense consistently. Whatever he has now isn't the same, otherwise he would've just frozen Croc again with them.

So the freeze grenades he has in Knight are all of a sudden weaker than the one he had in City?

He states that those specific kind of grenades ran out. It would be silly to suggest that his other ones that can't do the same (either to Titan goons, Croc, or any other large enemy) would somehow do the same thing.

Yes, because Shock Gloves are the only thing allowing him to perform electricity-based attacks, right? He totally doesn't have something called Remote Electric Charge, right

That's what I was hoping you'd bring up, considering regular thugs can outright dodge it already if I recall. It doesn't do any damage either so I guess it'll be of minimalistic use here unless Bat wants a second or so of free time.

@professorrespect said:

Right... I guess Spidey swinging some random industrial hook at Rhino

As stated, it managed to take Rhino off his feet and made him unsteady. If he tries to punch him regularly, he does none or minimalistic damage. Bracing is a obvious aspect when it comes to durability because sneak attacks and sucker punches can do a lot more damage than just up and up punching. It's alright if you don't know about bracing or whatnot but you don't need to pretend like it doesn't play a factor.

Literally nothing suggests he had to BFR them. In fact, we see them on the ground and Scorpion outright admitting that they've failed

That isn't proof of anything. They've failed to kill Spider-Man as of then but if they wanted to show that they were physically weaker, they'd just show it. You even make the same point as I do later down here, albeit applied incorrectly.

Because of PIS, as I've explained

PIS as a excuse is quickly running thin if you need to just apply it to stuff where it isn't really there.

Tell me with a straight face Fisk can take anywhere near the amount of force required to do this

This is lifting, not striking.

And that makes it any less canon how?

The argument isn't of "canon" the argument is of how one can say a fight between the same guys ending in a inconclusive result and then losing the next is PIS, but Deathstroke getting one shot in full armor like a chump isn't because of some confusing arguments on your end is a very weird standard to be using. Slade didn't get super weak all of a sudden and Batman certainly wasn't amped incredibly either, so it's confusing that you just seem to accept one but the other is really difficult.