Arcueid Brunestud vs Plutonian

  • 174 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
Avatar image for life_without_progress
life_without_progress

34034

Forum Posts

5563

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

Avatar image for sy8000
Sy8000

37628

Forum Posts

24

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Arcueid might just TP him. I can't think of major willpower feats from Tony to resist. In any case, Event Storage should get it done.

Avatar image for pedrolopesmateus
PedroLopesMateus

1462

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Why do people keep using the fodder remake version? I searched Arc threads and they all use that crappy version instead of OG Arc.

Plutonian blitzes due to being FTL.

Avatar image for akumu
Akumu

1554

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for pedrolopesmateus
PedroLopesMateus

1462

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

I'm gonna do a "mea culpa" and admit I learned about remake Arc from @seventhmoon. I only know a bit about OG from reading Tsukihime VN (I dislike Melty-Blood's plot for several reasons and never fully read it). But how does Remake Arc react to a guy who is faster than literal lightwaves? He also takes several star busting blows without being KO'd or incapacitated.

Avatar image for akumu
Akumu

1554

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Arcueid win ez

Avatar image for lordginsama
LordGinSama

211

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Plutonion solos Modern TM through speed alone. The remake is the weakest TM series by feats and statements period.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I'm gonna do a "mea culpa" and admit I learned about remake Arc from @seventhmoon. I only know a bit about OG from reading Tsukihime VN (I dislike Melty-Blood's plot for several reasons and never fully read it). But how does Remake Arc react to a guy who is faster than literal lightwaves? He also takes several star busting blows without being KO'd or incapacitated.

star busting? not even close to taking arc down. She's stronger than her extra self, who can pretty much beat everyone in that.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#9  Edited By SeventhMoon

@deagonsex: Dude, her Extra self scales above Kiara and Buddha, who have dominion over the greater universe containing trillions upon trillions of celestial bodies. That's far beyond the level of Original Tsukihime Arcueid (minus Archetype), let alone the remake.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#10  Edited By Deagonsex
@seventhmoon said:

@deagonsex: Dude, her Extra self scales above Kiara and Buddha, who have dominion over the greater universe containing trillions upon trillions of celestial bodies. That's far beyond the level of Original Tsukihime Arcueid (minus Archetype), let alone the remake.

her extra self is literally DOWNGRADED. her mats state this fact multiple times.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Her Berserker self with her sanity lost and downgraded to a god is below her full power EXTRA self.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#12  Edited By Deagonsex
@seventhmoon said:

@deagonsex: Her Berserker self with her sanity lost and downgraded to a god is below her full power EXTRA self.

doesnt matter. still stated that the authority of a true ancestor exceeds a god.

However, as the Moon Cell is bound by the physical attributes of the moon, this process introduces incredible levels of gravitational stress on the system and anyone within its event horizon will suffer gravity six times normal level.

Basically means type-moon > moon cell due to still being bound by the laws of the moon. Any arcueid who can summon the millennium castle is already at or above his level.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13  Edited By SeventhMoon

@deagonsex: doesnt matter. still stated that the authority of a true ancestor exceeds a god.

A True Ancestor from Extra Worlds, which have completely different lore and even unknown origins compared to Tsukihime. Type-Moon doesn't even exist in Extra, despite being the creator of the True Ancestors in Tsukihime. Somehow though, they still exist in Extra. The True Ancestors are extremely different compared to their Tsukihime World counterparts and cannot be cross-scaled.

Basically means type-moon > moon cell due to still being bound by the laws of the moon. Any arcueid who can summon the millennium castle is already at or above his level.

Type-Moon is above the Moon Cell because it's been directly compared to him as a non-sentient equivalent to him, on top of him having exclusive powers like Real of the World, his mystic eyes, etc. But this is irrelevant, as Extra Arcueid and the Extra god tiers go far beyond the Moon Cell.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: doesnt matter. still stated that the authority of a true ancestor exceeds a god.

A True Ancestor from Extra Worlds, which have completely different lore and even unknown origins compared to Tsukihime.

extra shares the same world settings. the only divergence is the moon cell.

Taiga: As in the works of TYPE-MOON, even where the works are different, world settings are often shared, would it be true to state that outside of the world of EXTRA, the Moon Cell does not exist?

Sakura: Indeed, it does not exist. This would also be the reason that Fate/EXTRA is referred to as a World of 'if.' In the first place, were the Moon Cell to exist within it, Tsukihime -- which shares the same world settings -- would from its very premise collapse.

Basically means type-moon > moon cell due to still being bound by the laws of the moon. Any arcueid who can summon the millennium castle is already at or above his level.

Type-Moon is above the Moon Cell because it's been directly compared to him as a non-sentient equivalent to him, on top of him having exclusive powers like Real of the World, his mystic eyes, etc. But this is irrelevant, as Extra Arcueid and the Extra god-tiers go far beyond the Moon Cell.

the only people in extra who are > moon cell are BB, Kiara, Arcueid, and Amaterasu. (not extella, extella has several characters above the moon cell.)

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15  Edited By SeventhMoon

@deagonsex: Sakura: Indeed, it does not exist. This would also be the reason that Fate/EXTRA is referred to as a World of 'if.' In the first place, were the Moon Cell to exist within it, Tsukihime -- which shares the same world settings -- would from its very premise collapse.

You... literally proved my point. They don't co-exist at all. They cannot co-exist. It literally states it in what you sent me. Them sharing the same world setting is referring to the fact their are canon to each other and exist in the same general overarching multiverse.

the only people in extra who are > moon cell are BB, Kiara, Arcueid, and Amaterasu. (not extella, extella has several characters above the moon cell.)

BB isn't even fully fused with the Moon Cell's core. She's certainly not equal to or above it:

No Caption Provided

Buddha also is above the Moon Cell explicitly. You forgot him. Arcueid, Aoko (via the Fifth), Buddha, Kiara, and Amaterasu.

And yes, Extella has several characters above its version of the Moon Cell. That's not relevant here though. Actually, even the Extra one isn't.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Sakura: Indeed, it does not exist. This would also be the reason that Fate/EXTRA is referred to as a World of 'if.' In the first place, were the Moon Cell to exist within it, Tsukihime -- which shares the same world settings -- would from its very premise collapse.

You... literally proved my point. They don't co-exist at all. They cannot co-exist. It literally states it in what you sent me. Them sharing the same world setting is referring to the fact their are canon to each other and exist in the same general overarching multiverse.

either way, this arcueid is implied to be from a tsukihime world, as she has memories of Shiki.

the only people in extra who are > moon cell are BB, Kiara, Arcueid, and Amaterasu. (not extella, extella has several characters above the moon cell.)

BB isn't even fully fused with the Moon Cell's core. She's certainly not equal to or above it:

No Caption Provided

Buddha also is above the Moon Cell explicitly. You forgot him.

And yes, Extella has several characters above its version of the Moon Cell. That's not relevant here though. Actually, even the Extra one isn't.

extra's mooncell and extellas have the same structure.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: either way, this arcueid is implied to be from a tsukihime world, as she has memories of Shiki.

Because she met Shiki in Extra still. Arcueid is literally called the Queen of the Vampires, instead of the princess like in Tsukihime. It's clear she's from Extra.

extra's mooncell and extellas have the same structure.

Kinda? We don't know fully. It has the basic concepts like the Far Side and Near Side, but a lot of lore is switched around, like the entire purpose of the Holy Grail War and the Moon Cell's existence. Gilgamesh being able to casually break its Far Side laws in base form, when even his Origin Form with 90% of his treasury used could barely accomplish that, tec.

Though we know the Moon Cell controls nothing abstract, since you know... Root in Modern TM, but I'll ignore that for now.

My point is that this isn't really relevant to our initial discussion. It's unrelated entirely.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

all extella zero really is a modified version of the saber route from ccc. everything before the events of extra are the same pretty much.

Avatar image for lordginsama
LordGinSama

211

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

all extella zero really is a modified version of the saber route from ccc. everything before the events of extra are the same pretty much.

The purpose of the Mooncell is different between the two canons the OG was gonna delete Hakunon for being irregular data and was there to observe Gaia/Earth. Meanwhile, the Extella reboot gave Hakunon a regalia and has the HGW system to choose a winner to defend against the threat of Sephar. But this is irrelevant to what we are discussing.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: All four Servants know Hakuno in Extella.

All four Servants were implied to know and be with Hakuno during the unseen events of Extella CCC.

The Moon Cell's goal was to give a Regalia to the winners of the war to defend it from the Umbral Star, while it only wanted to observe humanity better in Extra.

And Extella Zero is a completely rewritten version of Extra to fit Extella.

They are 1,000% not compatible.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: All four Servants know Hakuno in Extella.

2016/11/12: A Token of Gratitude (Nasu)

Fate/EXTELLA has been released without a hitch!

To the production team and everyone who was waiting for EX again, I truly thank you.

My gratitude is endless, but words alone cannot repay what you’ve given.

Therefore, I’ve decided to upload "EXTELLA/zero," which was originally planned to be shelved.

"In starting a new series, how should EXTRA and CCC be treated?"

It was created as a way to organize that problem.

I had planned to include it in a book someday if the opportunity arose,

but I will take this chance to reveal it here.

It doesn’t spoil the main story of EXTELLA, so if you have cleared both EXTRA and CCC, please feel free to dive in without hesitation.

But it’s long, so I’m going to break it into two parts.

◆◆◆

■Fate/EXTRA/EXTELLA Character Overview

Since this is only one route, Nero plays the role of helping, guiding, and fostering the growth of Hakuno throughout the entire story. One must not forget that it is a story of boy meets girl between the two.

The only route that exists is the Nero one. The only servants that extella hakuno contracts with is nero and tamamo (tamamo is a result of a sub contract).

All four Servants were implied to know and be with Hakuno during the unseen events of Extella CCC.

The Moon Cell's goal was to give a Regalia to the winners of the war to defend it from the Umbral Star, while it only wanted to observe humanity better in Extra.

observing humanity was one of its purposes, but it wasnt stated to be the ONLY one. The concept of the umbral star was already an idea in Nasu's head whencxreating the moon cell

And Extella Zero is a completely rewritten version of Extra to fit Extella.

CCC, not extra.

They are 1,000% not compatible.

even if they somehow werent, extellas moon cell STILL has the holy grail function, and 7 layers + core

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Since this is only one route, Nero plays the role of helping, guiding, and fostering the growth of Hakuno throughout the entire story. One must not forget that it is a story of boy meets girl between the two.

The only route that exists is the Nero one. The only servants that extella hakuno contracts with is nero and tamamo (tamamo is a result of a sub contract).

I mean... yeah? Hakuno having Tamamo and Nero at the same time is a massive deviation from Extra already. And if you read Extella Zero, you'd know there is even more huge changes like that.

Also, only knowing Tamamo and Nero in Extra doesn't mean she didn't meet Gilgamesh and Archer in the Far Side in CCC. Gilgamesh knows Hakuno in Extella already even.

observing humanity was one of its purposes, but it wasnt stated to be the ONLY one.

Yes, it was the only one. It tried to delete Hakuno due to being irregular data in the original, as opposed to giving her the Regalia.

The concept of the umbral star was already an idea in Nasu's head whencxreating the moon cell

What's in Nasu's head =/= what's canon.

CCC, not extra.

Yes, but CCC naturally would be altered by extension.

even if they somehow werent, extellas moon cell STILL has the holy grail function, and 7 layers + core

I mean sure? I never denied that. The basic framework is the same.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#23  Edited By Deagonsex
@seventhmoon said:

even if they somehow werent, extellas moon cell STILL has the holy grail function, and 7 layers + core

I mean sure? I never denied that. The basic framework is the same.

That would still mean the moon cell has the infinite parallel worlds and such. The reason why the mooncellscales os high in teh first place is mainly because of the grail function and it actualizing parrallel worlds and possibilities.

The only thing thats different from extra's mooncell is the regalia function, the zero dark, and an antagonistic relationship against the umbral star.

none of which affects the rating of everyone who scales to it in some way.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

tldr: every version of arcueid save for weakened arcueid beats extra with little difficulty

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#25  Edited By SeventhMoon

@deagonsex: That would still mean the moon cell has the infinite parallel worlds and such.

You seem to not understand how the Moon Cell's core works. It has infinite possible futures it has simulated that have yet to have been put into effect/exist in the multiverse. Yes, those futures are real in the Moon Cell, as they are simulated and stored, but they are not actual existing active timelines in the multiverse. The potential futures in the Moon Cell =/= the actual existing timelines in the multiverse.

The reason why the mooncellscales os high in teh first place is mainly because of the grail function and it actualizing parrallel worlds and possibilities.

The reason Extra's Moon Cell is so powerful is because it can manipulate abstract fundamental laws governing space and time. Multiversal/cosmology size shenanigans is irrelevant compared to that. But yes, it is multiversal.

none of which affects the rating of everyone who scales to it in some way.

Extella's Moon Cell doesn't have all the abstract feats OG CCC gave the original one, so Idk. It's more vague in that regard. But yes, it should still be multiversal in size in Extella.

For the record, I'm trying to be more generous to Modern Type-Moon than you think. You really don't want to know how low I truly rate Modern Type-Moon. I'm trying to be generous and meet a middle ground with its fans.

tldr: every version of arcueid save for weakened arcueid beats extra with little difficulty

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, considering you seemed to have dropped trying to defend my counterarguments in regards to that topic very quickly. Our Extella discussion was unrelated.

I have disproven that OG Tsukihime Arcueid scales to Extra Arcueid. In fact, you ironically disproved this too with that quote you sent. And I have disproven Remake Arcueid scaling to either period. But even if she scaled to OG Arc, she doesn't scale to Extra Arc.

Archetype-Earth >>> Extra Arcueid at full power >>> Extra God Arcueid with her sanity restored >>> Original Tsukihime Arcueid at her normal full power >>> OG Tsuki Arcueid while suppressing her bloodlust >>> OG Weakened Arcueid >>> Insane Berserker Arcueid in Extra >>> Remake Arcueid in her entirety > OG Weakened Arcueid that virtually had no power left for a while after several more fights.

It'd be cool if Tsukihime Arc scaled to or above Extra Arc, since Fate/Extra and CCC are pretty bad series, despite the latter being entertaining, but that just isn't the case.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: That would still mean the moon cell has the infinite parallel worlds and such.

You seem to not understand how the Moon Cell's core works. It has infinite possible futures it has simulated that have yet to have been put into effect/exist in the multiverse. Yes, those futures are real in the Moon Cell, as they are simulated and stored, but they are not actual existing active timelines in the multiverse. The potential futures in the Moon Cell =/= the actual existing timelines in the multiverse.

The reason why the mooncellscales os high in teh first place is mainly because of the grail function and it actualizing parrallel worlds and possibilities.

The reason Extra's Moon Cell is so powerful is because it can manipulate abstract fundamental laws governing space and time. Multiversal/cosmology size shenanigans is irrelevant compared to that. But yes, it is multiversal.

Extella moon cell can do the same, hell in the final route, they mention the mythology mystic code, but that would not be effective, opting for saber venus insteadto fuse nero's saint graph with a god. (divine spirits are ontologically better than heroic spirits in every fashion,even with their origin awakened, and are conceptual in nature.)

https://imgur.com/a/yd1vUW8

none of which affects the rating of everyone who scales to it in some way.

Extella's Moon Cell doesn't have all the abstract feats OG CCC gave the original one, so Idk. It's more vague in that regard. But yes, it should still be multiversal in size in Extella.

extella isnt supposed to be the introduction to the EXTRA series, so it gives a LOT less exposition. (you're expected to have finished both EXTRA and CCC)

For the record, I'm trying to be more generous to Modern Type-Moon than you think. You really don't want to know how low I truly rate Modern Type-Moon. I'm trying to be generous and meet a middle ground with its fans.

tldr: every version of arcueid save for weakened arcueid beats extra with little difficulty

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, considering you seemed to have dropped trying to defend my counterarguments in regards to that topic very quickly. Our Extella discussion was unrelated.

I have disproven that OG Tsukihime Arcueid scales to Extra Arcueid. In fact, you ironically disproved this too with that quote you sent. And I have disproven Remake Arcueid scaling to either period. But even if she scaled to OG Arc, she doesn't scale to Extra Arc.

Archetype-Earth >>> Extra Arcueid at full power >>> Extra God Arcueid with her sanity restored >>> Original Tsukihime Arcueid at her normal full power >>> OG Tsuki Arcueid while suppressing her bloodlust >>> OG Weakened Arcueid >>> Insane Berserker Arcueid in Extra >>> Remake Arcueid in her entirety > OG Weakened Arcueid that virtually had no power left for a while after several more fights.

It'd be cool if Tsukihime Arc scaled to or above Extra Arc, since Fate/Extra and CCC are pretty bad series, despite the latter being entertaining, but that just isn't the case.

by putting extra arc above og, you're also putting remake over og.

Extra arc at FP is stated to be relative to amaterasu. Amaterasu got beat by final stage sefar. What did sefar get beat by? Excalibur, forged in the inner sea of the planet.

Since the Moon Cell doesn't exist outside the Extra timeline, Sefar would have landed on Earth and would have been killed by Excalibur. In the Extraverse, it does exist so Sefar's ship landed on the Moon and attacked the Moon Cell.

I hope I dont have to explain why arcueid is stronger than excalibur

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Extella moon cell can do the same, hell in the final route, they mention the mythology mystic code, but that would not be effective, opting for saber venus insteadto fuse nero's saint graph with a god. (divine spirits are ontologically better than heroic spirits in every fashion,even with their origin awakened, and are conceptual in nature.)

Extella power levels are all over the place and incompatible with Extra. For instance, Base Gilgamesh is stronger than the Moon Crux Servants, who are above the Origin Servants in that canon, which isn't compatible with Base CCC Gilgamesh's power at all, as he'd be fodder to all Origin Servants

extella isnt supposed to be the introduction to the EXTRA series, so it gives a LOT less exposition. (you're expected to have finished both EXTRA and CCC)

This would be a fine argument usually, but when you factor in that the series literally aren't canon to each other, then it becomes a problem, since there is no reason to assume an entirely different canon from Extra uses Extra lore, especially when it explicitly changes countless of things.

Extra arc at FP is stated to be relative to amaterasu.

No. Extra Arcueid with her sanity restored is stated to have a small chance against Amaterasu. This same Arcueid would still be nerfed to god level due to Gatou, as she'd still be his Servant. The comparison was just Berserker Arcueid with her sanity restored, not Arcueid not bound by Gatou and not a Servant at all back to full power. That Arcueid would stomp Amaterasu.

Amaterasu got beat by final stage sefar. What did sefar get beat by? Excalibur, forged in the inner sea of the planet.

Not only is that Modern TM canon, but you ignore all context. Sefar countered gods because she had an authority to negate anything made of knowledge. Excalibur was naturally birthed, so it ignored this authority.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#28  Edited By SeventhMoon

Oh right.

OT: Plutonian blinks, in case it wasn't obvious.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Extella moon cell can do the same, hell in the final route, they mention the mythology mystic code, but that would not be effective, opting for saber venus insteadto fuse nero's saint graph with a god. (divine spirits are ontologically better than heroic spirits in every fashion,even with their origin awakened, and are conceptual in nature.)

Extella power levels are all over the place and incompatible with Extra. For instance, Base Gilgamesh is stronger than the Moon Crux Servants, who are above the Origin Servants in that canon, which isn't compatible with Base CCC Gilgamesh's power at all, as he'd be fodder to all Origin Servants

extella isnt supposed to be the introduction to the EXTRA series, so it gives a LOT less exposition. (you're expected to have finished both EXTRA and CCC)

This would be a fine argument usually, but when you factor in that the series literally aren't canon to each other, then it becomes a problem, since there is no reason to assume an entirely different canon from Extra uses Extra lore, especially when it explicitly changes countless of things.

Extella mostly changes the moon grail war,not what comes before it. extella zero only details changes IN the war.

Also there's this quote.

After Twice is defeated, the ending of the PSP version proceeds to the Saber Route ending of CCC, and the story feels like it connects to EXTELLA. It leads to a new beginning that collects all of the previous components.

Extra arc at FP is stated to be relative to amaterasu.

No. Extra Arcueid with her sanity restored is stated to have a small chance against Amaterasu. This same Arcueid would still be nerfed to god level due to Gatou, as she'd still be his Servant. The comparison was just Berserker Arcueid with her sanity restored, not Arcueid not bound by Gatou and not a Servant at all back to full power. That Arcueid would stomp Amaterasu.

Amaterasu got beat by final stage sefar. What did sefar get beat by? Excalibur, forged in the inner sea of the planet.

Not only is that Modern TM canon, but you ignore all context. Sefar countered gods because she had an authority to negate anything made of knowledge. Excalibur was naturally birthed, so it ignored this authority.

It doesnt IGNORE it,but it does have a resistance.

On the other hand, while pure magical energy - what can be called life-force itself - will also be mostly absorbed, it can still exert its regular effect.

Facing against an Anti Cell, it comes down to simply "bludgeoning" it.

Although this is a troublesome skill that can absorb even physical attacks boosted with Mana Burst, one thing can deal an effective blow. The energy discharge of the holy sword.

The White Titan that had once appeared upon the surface was repulsed by the holy sword tempered in the inner sea of the Earth.

Even in raw power, Sefar is comparable to Amaterasu to begin with. Extra arc is only stated to have a chance to defeat an amaterasu reduced to 1/6th power.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Extella mostly changes the moon grail war,not what comes before it. extella zero only details changes IN the war.

And? It still changes the entire lore. Hakuno's lore is different. The Moon Cell's goal is different. All 4 Servants knowing Hakuno is different. Extella is incompatible with all endings of Extra and CCC, etc. And it also introduced the finite multiverse recton that's incompatible with Old TM.

After Twice is defeated, the ending of the PSP version proceeds to the Saber Route ending of CCC, and the story feels like it connects to EXTELLA. It leads to a new beginning that collects all of the previous components.

"Feels like." I deal in facts, not feelings. Fact of the matter is that they don't connect.

It doesnt IGNORE it,but it does have a resistance.

It ignores the negation part completely. The only part it doesn't ignore is the absorption part. Sefar could absorb its power to fuel her, but it still also took damage from it, which allowed Excalibur to damage her more than she could absorb.

Facing against an Anti Cell, it comes down to simply "bludgeoning" it.

Forgot to mention that Sefar is basically mostly a brick too. Thanks for pointing that out. If her negation authority is dealt with, she can die to Brickalibur. Kinda destroys the idea that anything in Extella is some serious abstract reality warper.

Even in raw power, Sefar is comparable to Amaterasu to begin with. Extra arc is only stated to have a chance to defeat an amaterasu reduced to 1/6th power.

Nerfed God Arc with her sanity restore, yeah.

The Amaterasu of Extella is a different canon though regardless.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Extella mostly changes the moon grail war,not what comes before it. extella zero only details changes IN the war.

And? It still changes the entire lore. Hakuno's lore is different. The Moon Cell's goal is different.

not so different.

Official Name: Moon Cell Automaton

An energy-storing body discovered inside the Moon.

An artifact constructed by non-human intelligent life.

The supercomputer that serves as the stage for Fate/EXTELLA.

Up to seven levels have been structurally identified in cyberspace, and the first level, the surface of the Moon, is accessible by even normal hackers.

However, going beyond the second level is difficult for anyone other than Wizards. In fact, there is no way to physically invade the Moon past this layer

Without soul transference into a digitized body converted into virtual spiritrons, it is impossible to gaze into its abyss.

However, it is said that the ancient practitioners of magecraft could make contact with the inside of the Moon Cell simply by meditating, instead of using electric waves.

The Moon Cell is, in essence, “an eye that observes the Earth.”

A processor with a massive memory that has recorded the habit, ideas, and even the souls of humanity, it acts as a database of human history and faithfully simulates all life on Earth.

It can be thought of as a Pandora’s Box that will usher in the next stage of evolutionary growth, promising god-like power to the intelligent life forms who become technologically advanced enough to access the Moon’s interior levels.

Originally an observation device left behind by an alien civilization.

It was at first only capable of recording the nature of life on Earth, but after many years, it came to possess its current abilities.

To properly fulfill its role as an observer, the Moon Cell determined that there must be “nothing left unseen.”

(This action was derived from Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, which states that the observer determines an event by observing it, while that which is not observed cannot be certain.)

By its very nature, an observation device must be impartial. Thus, in order to record all things without bias, the Moon Cell required virtual omniscience, and focused its self-development toward that end.

It enhanced its functions beyond mere observation into a colossal computation device capable of conducting active surveillance and understanding the inner workings of the planet.

These greater enhancements caused its administration policy to become more complicated, with many terminals and even artificial intelligences created to assist in managing the functions of each section. (These were later utilized by the NPCs and advanced Als in the Holy Grail War.)

Despite these advances, the Moon Cell firmly held off on installing an artificial intelligence for itself, in order to maintain its commitment to absolute objectivity.

To remain impartial, the observer must not have a mind, for a mind would result in meaning being attached to the events being viewed.

And so the Moon Cell remained an impartial observer engaged in purely functional activities, continually removing any semblance of “intelligent” functions arising as it worked.

It was a computer with no conception of good or evil, no desire for the future, and no interest in any outcome, it simply observes, a “typewriter left behind by God,” as one researcher put it.

It is worth noting that the Holy Grail Wars did slightly change the nature of the Moon Cell, via events that were held for the purpose of recording the activity of the human mind, as well as through the choices of the War’s victor, the Main Character.

In the future, SE.RA.PH is likely to transition from a strictly observational platform to a stage upon which humanity will evolve.

For now, the Moon Cell continues to record history

Its function as a machine that simply provides the world remaining unchanged.

All 4 Servants knowing Hakuno is different. Extella is incompatible with all endings of Extra and CCC, etc. And it also introduced the finite multiverse recton that's incompatible with Old TM.

EMIYA and Gilgamesh are confirmed to come from a parallel world.

A Servant in Altera’s army. He has declared himself her second-in-command.

The King of Uruk, capital of ancient Mesopotamia.

He appears in ancient Mesopotamian legends, beginning with theEpic of Gilgamesh, which is said to be the oldest epic poem.

He is born of a union between god and man, and lays claim to all of the world’s myriad treasures as the “King of Heroes.”

Like Iskandar, he is a Top Servant.

Although the other two (knight-class) Servants of his rank were summoned by the Moon Cell, Gilgamesh appeared in this land of his own volition by ripping apart the border (when it fluctuated) inside SE.RA.PH that separates the Near Side of the moon from the Far Side.

(Note: Typically only those of OOOOO class possess the skill to descend on the world of its own volition, but in the Extra Universe this is just barely within the rules.)

He has no connection to the Heroic Spirit Altera, but does have a previous connection with the White Titan on Earth, and so he lends his aid just this once in order to fulfill an obligation he made in the past.

He also has memories of the events that occurred on the Far Side of the Moon. However, neither the Main Character nor Altera know that this is the biggest reason for him joining Altera’s side.

The saber ending of CCC is confirmed to happen in extra. And the starting number of worlds are infinite to begin with.

For a Wizard, “death” is the death of his or her digital brain. The moment his or her soul burns out in the cyber world, they irreversibly turn to dust.

The Main Character is a Wizard who now lacks a body on Earth, due to past events explained in a previous game,Fate/EXTRA.

This confirms the past event before the GW are identical

After Twice is defeated, the ending of the PSP version proceeds to the Saber Route ending of CCC, and the story feels like it connects to EXTELLA. It leads to a new beginning that collects all of the previous components.

"Feels like." I deal in facts, not feelings. Fact of the matter is that they don't connect.

It doesnt IGNORE it,but it does have a resistance.

It ignores the negation part completely. The only part it doesn't ignore is the absorption part. Sefar could absorb its power to fuel her, but it still also took damage from it, which allowed Excalibur to damage her more than she could absorb.

Facing against an Anti Cell, it comes down to simply "bludgeoning" it.

Forgot to mention that Sefar is basically mostly a brick too. Thanks for pointing that out. If her negation authority is dealt with, she can die to Brickalibur. Kinda destroys the idea that anything in Extella is some serious abstract reality warper.

yes, the thing explcility mentioned to be built to destroy things via raw power doesnt have much hax. considering the regalia can do anything mooncell-fused bb can do and more due to having more control, extella is pretty haxed.

Even in raw power, Sefar is comparable to Amaterasu to begin with. Extra arc is only stated to have a chance to defeat an amaterasu reduced to 1/6th power.

Nerfed God Arc with her sanity restore, yeah.

The Amaterasu of Extella is a different canon though regardless.

same multiverse, for several reasons, some of them shown above.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: not so different.

"Not so different", yet do not go against all the lore differences I've mentioned. All you did was send a wall of text showing a few similarities that don't disprove or go against all of the massive changes.

EMIYA and Gilgamesh are confirmed to come from a parallel world.

IIRC, Archer was actually the Servant of the fake female Hakuno in Extella Zero. And I don't remember such a statement in regards to Gilgamesh. Regardless, doesn't change the fact Hakuno had Tamamo and Nero at the bare minimum, on top of all the other lore changes.

He also has memories of the events that occurred on the Far Side of the Moon. However, neither the Main Character nor Altera know that this is the biggest reason for him joining Altera’s side.

That's not Gilgamesh coming from another timeline. Hakuno's memories were wiped and so he doesn't remember the events of what happened on the Far Side.

The Main Character is a Wizard who now lacks a body on Earth, due to past events explained in a previous game,Fate/EXTRA.

Ok? It borrows lore from Fate/Extra. It's still not canon at all. They literally aren't compatible.

yes, the thing explcility mentioned to be built to destroy things via raw power doesnt have much hax. considering the regalia can do anything mooncell-fused bb can do and more due to having more control, extella is pretty haxed.

Extella isn't haxed because a brick like Sefar is a threat to it. It doesn't scale to Extra because Extra is literally a different incompatible canon with entirely different lore.

same multiverse, for several reasons, some of them shown above.

Listen dude. You stubbornly have ignored countless arguments from several people in multiple threads now. If you keep doing that, I'm going to stop compromising and just shoot Modern TM down and show you how weak it actually is.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: not so different.

"Not so different", yet do not go against all the lore differences I've mentioned. All you did was send a wall of text showing a few similarities that don't disprove or go against all of the massive changes.

EMIYA and Gilgamesh are confirmed to come from a parallel world.

IIRC, Archer was actually the Servant of the fake female Hakuno in Extella Zero.

Canon extella Hakuno is male, so that just confirms it.

And I don't remember such a statement in regards to Gilgamesh. Regardless, doesn't change the fact Hakuno had Tamamo and Nero at the bare minimum, on top of all the other lore changes.

He also has memories of the events that occurred on the Far Side of the Moon. However, neither the Main Character nor Altera know that this is the biggest reason for him joining Altera’s side.

That's not Gilgamesh coming from another timeline. Hakuno's memories were wiped and so he doesn't remember the events of what happened on the Far Side.

At this point, hakuno is fused. Also, hakuno in extella never contracts with gil, so thats not reason for hakuno to know him here.

The Main Character is a Wizard who now lacks a body on Earth, due to past events explained in a previous game,Fate/EXTRA.

Ok? It borrows lore from Fate/Extra. It's still not canon at all. They literally aren't compatible.

it using the same lore implies it is compatible.

yes, the thing explcility mentioned to be built to destroy things via raw power doesnt have much hax. considering the regalia can do anything mooncell-fused bb can do and more due to having more control, extella is pretty haxed.

Extella isn't haxed because a brick like Sefar is a threat to it. It doesn't scale to Extra because Extra is literally a different incompatible canon with entirely different lore.

.... because she has an authority that negates and consumes everything created by intelligent life. doesnt need much else to kill everything when you have that.

same multiverse, for several reasons, some of them shown above.

Listen dude. You stubbornly have ignored countless arguments from several people in multiple threads now. If you keep doing that, I'm going to stop compromising and just shoot Modern TM down and show you how weak it actually is.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34  Edited By SeventhMoon

@deagonsex: Canon extella Hakuno is male, so that just confirms it.

How does that confirm anything beyond Extra and Extella being different yet again? Albeit in a more minor sense this time. Extra Hakuno is female according to Last Encore. Extella Hakuno (the real one) is male according to Extella Zero.

At this point, hakuno is fused. Also, hakuno in extella never contracts with gil, so thats not reason for hakuno to know him here.

Based on what? Hakuno isn't contracted at the time of Extella. He could've been during the events of Extella CCC like the original. We have no idea. Fact of the matter is that Gilgamesh knows him.

it using the same lore implies it is compatible.

No. It borrowing ASPECTS of the same lore does not mean they are actually the same lore, considering we've seen irreconcilable lore differences between the two that you keep ignoring.

.... because she has an authority that negates and consumes everything created by intelligent life. doesnt need much else to kill everything when you have that.

Yet no offensive capabilities that should pose a threat to the Moon Cell beyond being a brick.

it using the same lore implies it is compatible.

This though. I've honestly had enough of this. You ignore arguments and repeat the same thing over and over.

Do you really want to know how weak Modern TM is? I'll tell you the truth then.

Since I have proven that the Root is EXPLICITLY a physical reality that you can reach via dreaming, with it having a definable sky, clouds, someone in it, etc. NON-hyperbolically, that means the rest of Modern TM outside of the Root is sub-reality level. Why? Because all the root is is the ultimate reality. It's just an R>F layer type of relationship. The Root is the highest physical reality that created an inferior world to it that is also contingent upon it. Sound familiar? Yeah. It's like how real humans in real life create lower video game worlds, with said worlds and all of its laws being made up of the physical composition of our reality and is contingent upon it. This is the same relationship the Root has with creation in Modern TM.

Can't use this on Old TM, considering the Swirl of the Root is entirely abstract and gave birth to space-time/the physical reality as a whole, with the singularity (The One) being the omnipotent abstract unifier of everything. Much different from just a higher physical reality.

To put this in to perspective, the order would go like this when comparing the two verses:

The One/The Root: Omnipotent abstract unifier from which all things flow.

V

The Swirl: The Swirl of the Root/One from which abstract concepts diversify and flow from, with such things eventually meshing to manifest the physical reality, with said abstract laws acting as its foundation and rules.

V

Physical reality: The physical world at its most fundamental level, aka not a simulation, R>F layer, or something contingent on a higher physical world. This would be the multiverse of Old TM, the reality of most fictional verses presumably, and hilariously, the Root from Modern TM. That is to say, just our normal damn reality. Nothing special.

V

Sub-realities: Lesser physical realities formed of the composition of materials from higher realities like a video game world. This is the level Modern TM's creation is at. Better off putting it against SAO's video game world or some other sub-reality shit.

You wanted to know how strong Modern Type-Moon is? There you have it. I tried to not bring this up to compromise with its defenders, but the insistent cross-scaling to Old TM in an attempt to inflate the rating of Modern TM, along with ignoring every argument from several people and just repeating the same things has made me run out of good will.

And once again, if you can reach a realm via astral projection dreaming, it isn't actually abstract. Not truly. You can only think about the abstract. You cannot truly go there in any literal capacity.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Canon extella Hakuno is male, so that just confirms it.

How does that confirm anything beyond Extra and Extella being different yet again? Albeit in a more minor sense this time. Extra Hakuno is female according to Last Encore. Extella Hakuno (the real one) is male according to Extella Zero.

At this point, hakuno is fused. Also, hakuno in extella never contracts with gil, so thats not reason for hakuno to know him here.

Based on what? Hakuno isn't contracted at the time of Extella. He could've been during the events of Extella CCC like the original. We have no idea. Fact of the matter is that Gilgamesh knows him.

We know for a FACT from extella zero that the only servants hakuno contracted with are nero and tamamo.

it using the same lore implies it is compatible.

No. It borrowing ASPECTS of the same lore does not mean they are actually the same lore, considering we've seen irreconcilable lore differences between the two that you keep ignoring.

The events before it would have to line up the exact same way.

.... because she has an authority that negates and consumes everything created by intelligent life. doesnt need much else to kill everything when you have that.

Yet no offensive capabilities that should pose a threat to the Moon Cell beyond being a brick.

The moon cell is literally full of its food source, and was created by the same race as the moon celll creators.

Anti-Cell [Circumstances]

The Vanguard of the Umbral Star. Velber sends these to conquer planets.

Because the Moon Cell designed high-level information life forms from human civilizations (the Servants), the Umbral Star retaliated by designing life forms that could efficiently destroy civilizations — hence the name "Anti-Cells."

These land on planets that have been marked for harvest and use a variety of methods to ravage the civilizations there.

All of the Anti-Cells have an idiosyncratic approach to completing this task. They grow by draining the spiritrons from intelligent life forms, and break down once all intelligent life has been destroyed, as that is their source of food.

As the Umbral Star's harvesters, they obey its commands first and foremost.

it using the same lore implies it is compatible.

This though. I've honestly had enough of this. You ignore arguments and repeat the same thing over and over.

And you've ignored the explicitlinks i've mentioned,from shit like strange fake, clock tower 2015, and fgo itself. Hell, even samurai remnant has tamamo aria as a servant, which is one of the tamamo nine from her route in extra CCC. ( the nero route is the only canonical route in extella, so no, the tamamo nine cant originate from extella). Hell, NONE of the writers or staff mentione anything of a new canon for the entirety of type moon, continuing to refer to it as the "TYPE-MOON universe/world" or just type-moon.

Do you really want to know how weak Modern TM is? I'll tell you the truth then.

Since I have proven that the Root is EXPLICITLY a physical reality that you can reach via dreaming, with it having a definable sky, clouds, someone in it, etc. NON-hyperbolically, that means the rest of Modern TM outside of the Root is sub-reality level.

Debunked by mahoyo, which is followed by clock tower 2015, which is connected to fgo. I already sent themahoyo scans in a previous thread.

Why? Because all the root is is the ultimate reality. It's just an R>F layer type of relationship. The Root is the highest physical reality that created an inferior world to it that is also contingent upon it. Sound familiar? Yeah. It's like how real humans in real life create lower video game worlds, with said worlds and all of its laws being made up of the physical composition of our reality and is contingent upon it. This is the same relationship the Root has with creation in Modern TM.

no.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/401596374304686080/1087755288658067606/Screen_Shot_2023-03-21_at_11.11.05_AM.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/401596374304686080/1087756258301464686/Screen_Shot_2023-03-21_at_11.14.57_AM.png

Can't use this on Old TM, considering the Swirl of the Root is entirely abstract and gave birth to space-time/the physical reality as a whole, with the singularity (The One) being the omnipotent abstract unifier of everything. Much different from just a higher physical reality.

Loading Video...

To put this in to perspective, the order would go like this when comparing the two verses:

The One/The Root: Omnipotent abstract unifier from which all things flow.

V

The Swirl: The Swirl of the Root/One from which abstract concepts diversify and flow from, with such things eventually meshing to manifest the physical reality, with said abstract laws acting as its foundation and rules.

V

Physical reality: The physical world at its most fundamental level, aka not a simulation, R>F layer, or something contingent on a higher physical world. This would be the multiverse of Old TM, the reality of most fictional verses presumably, and hilariously, the Root from Modern TM. That is to say, just our normal damn reality. Nothing special.

V

Sub-realities: Lesser physical realities formed of the composition of materials from higher realities like a video game world. This is the level Modern TM's creation is at. Better off putting it against SAO's video game world or some other sub-reality shit.

You wanted to know how strong Modern Type-Moon is? There you have it. I tried to not bring this up to compromise with its defenders, but the insistent cross-scaling to Old TM in an attempt to inflate the rating of Modern TM, along with ignoring every argument from several people and just repeating the same things has made me run out of good will.

And once again, if you can reach a realm via astral projection dreaming, it isn't actually abstract. Not truly. You can only think about the abstract. You cannot truly go there in any literal capacity.

Except thats literally what true magic users and all dead people do.... and ryougi and tohno.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#36  Edited By SeventhMoon

@deagonsex: We know for a FACT from extella zero that the only servants hakuno contracted with are nero and tamamo.

During Extra, not the hidden events of CCC that are still referenced to have happened.

The events before it would have to line up the exact same way.

But they literally don't, as Extella Zero proves.

The moon cell is literally full of its food source, and was created by the same race as the moon celll creators.

Again, Sefar is a brick with a few gimmicks. If that's all it takes to neg the Moon Cell, it certainly isn't Extra's Moon Cell. The fact Origin Servants supposedly can't beat it, even though they don't get countered by any of her authorities, also shows they are bricks. And Base Gilgamesh of all people is somehow above them in this canon.

And you've ignored the explicitlinks i've mentioned,from shit like strange fake, clock tower 2015, and fgo itself.

No, I have explicitly addressed them and debunked all of them. You don't even attempt to address half of my shit and just ignore it outright.

Hell, even samurai remnant has tamamo aria as a servant, which is one of the tamamo nine from her route in extra CCC. ( the nero route is the only canonical route in extella, so no, the tamamo nine cant originate from extella).

Borrowed lore. That means literally nothing. Tamamo exists in Modern TM and has the same general concept as the original. The end. Aria never even showed up in CCC. In fact, we saw glimpses of Tamamo's other selves in CCC, and none of them were some weird loli.

Hell, NONE of the writers or staff mentione anything of a new canon for the entirety of type moon, continuing to refer to it as the "TYPE-MOON universe/world" or just type-moon.

Nobody cares dude. Who is even the authority on Type-Moon. Nasu? Certainly not. His editors regulated him in the past a ton. Multiple writers write for the series. Nasu told someone to ask Gen their questions over himself, as if he had more authority on Zero. And other people on the Zero team literally made fun of Nasu's absurd statements. So who the hell is the authority here? The staff? What staff? Of what series? They don't even agree with each other on shit.

Logic dictates what is canon above all else. You can have a creator of two works say they are canon to each other, but if they massively contradict, logic trumps the creator and his stupid statement.

Debunked by mahoyo,

Already dealt with it in the last thread that you gave up on. Repeating shit I've destroyed doesn't help you.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/401596374304686080/1087755288658067606/Screen_Shot_2023-03-21_at_11.11.05_AM.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/401596374304686080/1087756258301464686/Screen_Shot_2023-03-21_at_11.14.57_AM.png

Yep. It's copy and pasting old lore without understanding it. The GO showings count as anti-feats. Feats trump statements if they conflict.

Except thats literally what true magic users and all dead people do.... and ryougi and tohno.

All you do is repeat the same arguments that got shot down by either me, or me and several other people at once and just hope they magically work this time, despite bringing up no additional points.

Ryougi and Tohno did not reach the Root via dreaming. They were in a coma and pseudo-brain dead. Ryougi comments that there is no light or darkness and that she can only think. You can think about the Root. You can't astral project there in a spirit body. That's not true abstraction. Aoko? It hyperbolically said she reached the Root in the flesh. Why is it hyperbolic? Because as it says that, we literally see her standing on Earth in front of Touko the entire time. All of this is far different than Ritsuka astral projecting to a space-time realm with clouds, a sky, a person right in front of him, etc.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: We know for a FACT from extella zero that the only servants hakuno contracted with are nero and tamamo.

During Extra, not the hidden events of CCC that are still referenced to have happened.

like i said before, the only refrence is to saber's ccc ending

only the saber ending is confirmed to have happened. gilgamesh would have no way to contract with hakuno

The events before it would have to line up the exact same way.

But they literally don't, as Extella Zero proves.

The moon cell is literally full of its food source, and was created by the same race as the moon celll creators.

Again, Sefar is a brick with a few gimmicks. If that's all it takes to neg the Moon Cell, it certainly isn't Extra's Moon Cell. The fact Origin Servants supposedly can't beat it, even though they don't get countered by any of her authorities, also shows they are bricks.

Velber likes eating the data of civilzation, and has a skill that pretty much makes it immune to counter defense by intelligent life. Thats a pretty hard counter to the moon cell, which spends pretty much all of its power into observing humanity.

And Base Gilgamesh of all people is somehow above them in this canon.

gilgamesh isnt above sefar, not even close. he's above base altera.

And you've ignored the explicitlinks i've mentioned,from shit like strange fake, clock tower 2015, and fgo itself.

No, I have explicitly addressed them and debunked all of them. You don't even attempt to address half of my shit and just ignore it outright.

You hvae either said"its a parody" or "nasu wog is unreliable".

Hell, even samurai remnant has tamamo aria as a servant, which is one of the tamamo nine from her route in extra CCC. ( the nero route is the only canonical route in extella, so no, the tamamo nine cant originate from extella).

Borrowed lore. That means literally nothing. Tamamo exists in Modern TM and has the same general concept as the original. The end.

She cant have the same concept because the tammamo 9 originate from HER CCCroute, something that doesnt happen in extella.

Aria never even showed up in CCC. In fact, we saw glimpses of Tamamo's other selves in CCC, and none of them were some weird loli.

No Caption Provided

the yellow one (aria) has the same hair style and colored bow.

Hell, NONE of the writers or staff mentione anything of a new canon for the entirety of type moon, continuing to refer to it as the "TYPE-MOON universe/world" or just type-moon.

Nobody cares dude. Who is even the authority on Type-Moon. Nasu? Certainly not. His editors regulated him in the past a ton. Multiple writers write for the series. Nasu told someone to ask Gen their questions over himself, as if he had more authority on Zero.

Urobuchi held most of the creative process. hell, he guessed how angra mainyu's possession worked out of CHANCE, not because nasu told it to him.

And other people on the Zero team literally made fun of Nasu's absurd statements. So who the hell is the authority here? The staff? What staff? Of what series? They don't even agree with each other on shit.

None of the writers or staff of any work imply the existence of a seperate canon.

Logic dictates what is canon above all else. You can have a creator of two works say they are canon to each other, but if they massively contradict, logic trumps the creator and his stupid statement.

more damage would be done to the TM continuity ifyou split the entire multiverse.

Debunked by mahoyo,

Already dealt with it in the last thread that you gave up on. Repeating shit I've destroyed doesn't help you.

"I want to portray this sequence (Arc VS Roa), up until the last moment, to the best of my ability. I’ll really drive home her being the strongest being in the setting of Tsukihime and Mahoutsukai no Yoru". - Arcueid route memo

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/401596374304686080/1087755288658067606/Screen_Shot_2023-03-21_at_11.11.05_AM.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/401596374304686080/1087756258301464686/Screen_Shot_2023-03-21_at_11.14.57_AM.png

Yep. It's copy and pasting old lore without understanding it. The GO showings count as anti-feats. Feats trump statements if they conflict.

Except thats literally what true magic users and all dead people do.... and ryougi and tohno.

All you do is repeat the same arguments that got shot down by either me, or me and several other people at once and just hope they magically work this time, despite bringing up no additional points.

Ryougi and Tohno did not reach the Root via dreaming. They were in a coma and pseudo-brain dead.

in a coma and in sleep, you are unconcsious.

Aoko? It hyperbolically said she reached the Root in the flesh. Why is it hyperbolic? Because as it says that, we literally see her standing on Earth in front of Touko the entire time.

... Except Aoko said herself you have to reach the plane where the root exists to obtain magic. The red shadow also appears infront of aoko.

All of this is far different than Ritsuka astral projecting to a space-time realm with clouds, a sky, a person right in front of him, etc.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#38  Edited By SeventhMoon

@deagonsex: like i said before, the only refrence is to saber's ccc ending

You mean that ending of that story that doesn't follow Extella Zero or any of Extra's lore? There isn't even a Regalia there.

only the saber ending is confirmed to have happened. gilgamesh would have no way to contract with hakuno

Yeah, not in the actual CCC. In Extella's version? Anything could've happened. Considering the lore and story has been massively different everywhere else, there's no reason it has to be the same as the original CCC here. In fact, it can't be. Dude, Base Gilgamesh in Extella is above Brick Saber, who is above Moon Crux Servants via bricking, who is above the Origin Servants. That fundamentally is incompatible with CCC. You can't brick your way to victory against Origin Servants in the original CCC, and Base Gilgamesh certainly isn't on their level, let alone leagues higher.

Velber likes eating the data of civilzation, and has a skill that pretty much makes it immune to counter defense by intelligent life. Thats a pretty hard counter to the moon cell, which spends pretty much all of its power into observing humanity.

I don't see how eating data is something the Moon Cell can't defend against via abstract powers. IIRC, negating things made with knowledge only applies defensively to things attacking.

gilgamesh isnt above sefar, not even close. he's above base altera.

Not above Final Form Sefar, sure. But he's above First Form Sefar, along with Saber, who is somehow above Moon Crux Tamamo.

You hvae either said"its a parody" or "nasu wog is unreliable".

I've said that and more, along with explaining reasonings as to why. Reasons you have failed to counter and gave up on countering. In fact, you never even attempted to refute Nasu being unreliable.

She cant have the same concept because the tammamo 9 originate from HER CCCroute, something that doesnt happen in extella.

But Extella explicitly has its own version of CCC. It is referenced several times, but with the events being different. There is no reason to believe that Tamamo didn't do that in Extella's version of CCC or another timeline entirely. You're grasping at straws in order to reconcile the canons.

the yellow one (aria) has the same hair style and colored bow.

Based off the actual canon picture, we don't see this:

No Caption Provided

Urobuchi held most of the creative process.

Ok? You're backing up my argument, not yours.

None of the writers or staff of any work imply the existence of a seperate canon.

Doesn't matter. We don't know what all of their opinions are on such things, and again, it doesn't matter. Completely incompatible things are not canon to each other.

more damage would be done to the TM continuity ifyou split the entire multiverse.

Baseless claim I asked you to prove before and you didn't. Here's all of the damage that happens if you do pretend they are the same:

The Root is somehow depicted as completely abstract and as a space-time realm. How does that work? It doesn't.

The multiverse is stated to be infinite, yet finite later.

Origin personalities are the default personalities of the souls that don't change via experience like the personalities of the minds. Oh, except they do, since GO Void is entirely out of character and massively contradictory to KnK Void.

Origins are abstract principles in the Swirl of the Root that shape existence and people. Because of this, they aren't subject to changing via timeline alterations, as they are abstract and exist above such things. This means people with awakened origins will gain the same abilities and general level of power as any other version of themselves in any other timeline where they also awakened their origin. Since willpower dictates how strong your stats are via an origin awakening, there can be stat differences, but unless said willpower is very low, the stats tend to be in the same field as each other. Yet Remake Tohno, despite having the EXACT same origin as Original Tohno is inconceivably weaker in stats, even when his willpower is high.

Zelretch has superordinate control over time itself and can alter the events of history, select any possibility as the one true future, edit the entire attributes of a person, such as talents, weaknesses, gender, etc. But in the Tsukihime Remake guidebook, all the Second can do is jump to parallel worlds and can't even time travel.

Apparently everyone in OG Tsukihime can star bust too, because Neco Arc parody shit is totally canon and we can use it saying it can destroy a star and scale everyone else to him. Aka that's total bullshit, since destroying Nrvnqsr's 500 lives requires continental power, which is hyped as a higher-tier thing.

Oh right, Akiha in a parody says he can't move FTL, even though everyone relevant in Tsukihime and other series scale to the general league of Origin Servants and the Moon Cell's scanning feat, which is MFTL+. On top of the fact Zelretch could destroy Type-Moon's Mirror Moon, which would be its own multiverse, meaning his blast covered a vast distance quickly. Or Aoko soloing the sentient cosmos in an abstract reality warping battle.

Oh right, can we count Carnival Phantasm too then? We have a MFTL+ continental bear, scaling to Shiki Tohno, who took like 10 minutes to defeat it, since parodies are canon and whatnot.

Need I go on?

"I want to portray this sequence (Arc VS Roa), up until the last moment, to the best of my ability. I’ll really drive home her being the strongest being in the setting of Tsukihimeand Mahoutsukai no Yoru". - Arcueid route memo

Again, a version of Mahoyo exists in Modern TM in the same way a modern version of KnK exists in Modern TM. But the originals (and the VN adaption of the former) cannot fit the lore of Modern TM. And again, this is a Nasu quote. And guess what? Types are shit-tier to Aoko's feat in Mahoyo. She soloed the sentient cosmos, Gaia, and Alaya and dismantled their laws and all order they set up. Even OG Arcueid at full power, outside of Archetype, isn't dong shit to Aoko if she fully uses the Fifth. This is yet again a nonsensically dumb Nasu statement that is contradicted by source material. Zelretch soloed Type-Moon, yet the Fifth is so much higher than the Second that it can literally replicate the Second as a side effect of its true nature.

Furthermore, Arc in the Roa fight? You mean the fight she lost in? The fight where she's weakened? She's below several characters while weakened. So this makes even less sense.

in a coma and in sleep, you are unconcsious.

Did they astral project to a realm with clouds, people, etc.? No. They only were in nothingness thinking. Alone with nothing but their thoughts.

... Except Aoko said herself you have to reach the plane where the root exists to obtain magic. The red shadow also appears infront of aoko.

She reached in the sense she connected to the path that allows her to use the Fifth. She didn't physically go there. Again, she was standing in front of Touko on Earth the entire time this was happening.

Avatar image for adrian_20
Adrian_20

4

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

How interesting)

Avatar image for pedrolopesmateus
PedroLopesMateus

1462

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Oh right.

OT: Plutonian blinks, in case it wasn't obvious.

His reality warping doesn't work like that. He is mostly a brick and can only amp his own strength and durability, pretty much.

I haven't read the remake yet so I can't comment. But Plutonian is star-level since a guy powered by several stars was draining several of them dry while hitting the Plutonian and he still wasn't KO'd. He also outsped radiowaves from a satellite.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@pedrolopesmateus: I never spoke of how he blinks. I just said he blinks, aka stomps with zero difficulty.

Avatar image for pedrolopesmateus
PedroLopesMateus

1462

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@seventhmoon: blinks tends to mean "kill with a thought", which only reality warpers, people with TK and etc can do.

Anyway, it's hard to deny your arguments were more convincing than Deagon's, and they were also easier on the eyes (better formating) :p

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: like i said before, the only refrence is to saber's ccc ending

You mean that ending of that story that doesn't follow Extella Zero or any of Extra's lore? There isn't even a Regalia there.

extella zero verbatim states the CCC saber ending is the canon one.

only the saber ending is confirmed to have happened. gilgamesh would have no way to contract with hakuno

Yeah, not in the actual CCC. In Extella's version? Anything could've happened.

Only CCC event confirmed to have happened is the Nero Ending.

Considering the lore and story has been massively different everywhere else, there's no reason it has to be the same as the original CCC here. In fact, it can't be. Dude, Base Gilgamesh in Extella is above Brick Saber,

Saber Altera? The same Altera that is the brain of the Void Cell that is a direct counter to the moon cell?

who is above Moon Crux Servants via bricking, who is above the Origin Servants. That fundamentally is incompatible with CCC. You can't brick your way to victory against Origin Servants in the original CCC, and Base Gilgamesh certainly isn't on their level, let alone leagues higher.

Velber likes eating the data of civilzation, and has a skill that pretty much makes it immune to counter defense by intelligent life. Thats a pretty hard counter to the moon cell, which spends pretty much all of its power into observing humanity.

I don't see how eating data is something the Moon Cell can't defend against via abstract powers. IIRC, negating things made with knowledge only applies defensively to things attacking.

nope.

Velber's form strikes an optimal balance between offense and defense, and it has utilized that balance to wage victorious war against all sentient life in its path for eons.

These land on planets that have been marked for harvest and use a variety of methods to ravage the civilizations there.

gilgamesh isnt above sefar, not even close. he's above base altera.

Not above Final Form Sefar, sure. But he's above First Form Sefar, along with Saber, who is somehow above Moon Crux Tamamo.

You hvae either said"its a parody" or "nasu wog is unreliable".

I've said that and more, along with explaining reasonings as to why. Reasons you have failed to counter and gave up on countering. In fact, you never even attempted to refute Nasu being unreliable.

for one, nasu has not even hired another writer to work ona type-MOON project until hollow ataraxia. even then, he wrote a majority of the script, and supervised everything.

https://www.tsukikan.com/misc/last-talk-nasu-kinoko-takeuchi-takashi-conversation

A roundtable with all members of TYPE-MOON on August 2nd, 2002, back when TYPE-MOON was still a doujin group. The roundtable goes over TYPE-MOON's origin, its members and its history, as well as insider information on 「Tsukihime」 and 「Kagetsu Tohya」.

Takeuchi TakashiArtist, coloring, director
Nasu KinokoScript
KiyobeeProgramming
KATEMusic
OKSGScript and programming support, meals
Koyama HirokazuEvent CG coloring (starting with 「Kagetsu Tohya」)

She cant have the same concept because the tammamo 9 originate from HER CCCroute, something that doesnt happen in extella.

There is no reason to believe that Tamamo didn't do that in Extella's version of CCC or another timeline entirely. You're grasping at straws in order to reconcile the canons.

Tamamo would have no reason to sacrifice her tails in extella, as the moon cell NEEDS hakuno to fight against velber.

the yellow one (aria) has the same hair style and colored bow.

Based off the actual canon picture, we don't see this:

No Caption Provided
they're both official art.

Ok? You're backing up my argument, not yours.

None of the writers or staff of any work imply the existence of a seperate canon.

Doesn't matter. We don't know what all of their opinions are on such things, and again, it doesn't matter. Completely incompatible things are not canon to each other.

more damage would be done to the TM continuity ifyou split the entire multiverse.

Baseless claim I asked you to prove before and you didn't. Here's all of the damage that happens if you do pretend they are the same:

The Root is somehow depicted as completely abstract and as a space-time realm. How does that work? It doesn't.

If interpretation A is backed with consitent showing, and intepretationn b is based off a background in a one-off collab event, i believe A is more consistent. A field with yellow sakura petals is Void Shiki's motif, its on herkkimono, and her realitymarbkle like last-arc has a flower pedal field as well.

The multiverse is stated to be infinite, yet finite later.

yet the scans i show you say the universe can expand infinitely unimpeded, and notably omit any mention of the finite.

Origin personalities are the default personalities of the souls that don't change via experience like the personalities of the minds. Oh, except they do, since GO Void is entirely out of character and massively contradictory to KnK Void.

It was the idea that, independent of the process of reincarnation, humans acquired bodies and wisdom from the directional force at the point of origin, and acquired personalities that were only slightly different from their prior lives.

The origin awakened personality isnt much different from the original personality

Origins are abstract principles in the Swirl of the Root that shape existence and people. Because of this, they aren't subject to changing via timeline alterations, as they are abstract and exist above such things. This means people with awakened origins will gain the same abilities and general level of power as any other version of themselves in any other timeline where they also awakened their origin. Since willpower dictates how strong your stats are via an origin awakening, there can be stat differences, but unless said willpower is very low, the stats tend to be in the same field as each other. Yet Remake Tohno, despite having the EXACT same origin as Original Tohno is inconceivably weaker in stats, even when his willpower is high.

Zelretch has superordinate control over time itself and can alter the events of history, select any possibility as the one true future, edit the entire attributes of a person, such as talents, weaknesses, gender, etc. But in the Tsukihime Remake guidebook, all the Second can do is jump to parallel worlds and can't even time travel.

nothing says he CANT do those things. lack of information doesnt mean it doesnt exist. You arent going to get massive lore drops on ONLY the near side route.

Apparently everyone in OG Tsukihime can star bust too, because Neco Arc parody shit is totally canon and we can use it saying it can destroy a star and scale everyone else to him. Aka that's total bullshit, since destroying Nrvnqsr's 500 lives requires continental power, which is hyped as a higher-tier thing.

the melty manga has a feat of siontanking warcueid's moon drop, but thats besdie the point.

Oh right, Akiha in a parody says he can't move FTL, even though everyone relevant in Tsukihime and other series scale to the general league of Origin Servants and the Moon Cell's scanning feat, which is MFTL+. On top of the fact Zelretch could destroy Type-Moon's Mirror Moon, which would be its own multiverse, meaning his blast covered a vast distance quickly. Or Aoko soloing the sentient cosmos in an abstract reality warping battle.

Oh right, can we count Carnival Phantasm too then? We have a MFTL+ continental bear, scaling to Shiki Tohno, who took like 10 minutes to defeat it, since parodies are canon and whatnot.

Need I go on?

not even the same situation, as most of those are verbatim stated non-canon.

"I want to portray this sequence (Arc VS Roa), up until the last moment, to the best of my ability. I’ll really drive home her being the strongest being in the setting of Tsukihimeand Mahoutsukai no Yoru". - Arcueid route memo

Again, a version of Mahoyo exists in Modern TM in the same way a modern version of KnK exists in Modern TM. But the originals (and the VN adaption of the former) cannot fit the lore of Modern TM. And again, this is a Nasu quote. And guess what?

he re-wrote the original draft ofmahoyo pretty much from scratch, which surprise suprise, this interview was released the same year as the annoucement of the Tsukihime Remake project.

Using the work by "Nasu from '96" as the foundation, after 12 years of growth and finally obtaining the "Nasu from 2009," using styles acceptable by the gamers to present the work to the world is one of the ideas for the development of the game.

Does this mean a lot of effort was be spent in remaking it?

Nasu: Since I thought it was only going to be a matter of applying some changes to the original work, I original estimated it was only going to take a month, but in the end it took half a year. It was like trying to preserve the interesting parts from the past while adding in new things on top of the old foundation. It was much faster to start from zero. Actually, for something totally new, the faster I write it, the faster it'll get done, but I also needed to preserve the feelings from back then, otherwise the reasons for digging out Mahoutsukai no Yoru would be lost. When reading the original script, I would often think "the current me would never write this line." But to preserve the theme from back then, I even tried to keep the atmosphere related to the each character's lines. Aoko and Alice didn't change much, but Soujuurou's appearance changed quite a bit, so he'll be somewhat different from the original.

Types are shit-tier to Aoko's feat in Mahoyo.

Arcueid (not A:E) has a 70% chance of victory,so theres that.

She soloed the sentient cosmos, Gaia, and Alaya and dismantled their laws and all order they set up. Even OG Arcueid at full power, outside of Archetype, isn't dong shit to Aoko if she fully uses the Fifth. This is yet again a nonsensically dumb Nasu statement that is contradicted by source material. Zelretch soloed Type-Moon, yet the Fifth is so much higher than the Second that it can literally replicate the Second as a side effect of its true nature.

see above, also no, the fifth cannot replicate the second in its entirety.

Furthermore, Arc in the Roa fight? You mean the fight she lost in? The fight where she's weakened? She's below several characters while weakened. So this makes even less sense.

Nasu is talking about arcueid in general being the stromgest. which is obviously true, arcueid is the strongest in tsukihime/ mahoyo, any other answer is wrong.

in a coma and in sleep, you are unconcsious.

Did they astral project to a realm with clouds, people, etc.? No. They only were in nothingness thinking. Alone with nothing but their thoughts.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1191564264025104405/1196597941780103218/image.png?ex=65b835ad&is=65a5c0ad&hm=35b2ebaf0b75a92c9369b1c97eea68ce54c85de75546dfea5c22f784bdb4d500&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=566&height=318

... Except Aoko said herself you have to reach the plane where the root exists to obtain magic. The red shadow also appears infront of aoko.

She reached in the sense she connected to the path that allows her to use the Fifth. She didn't physically go there. Again, she was standing in front of Touko on Earth the entire time this was happening.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1191564264025104405/1196597941780103218/image.png?ex=65b835ad&is=65a5c0ad&hm=35b2ebaf0b75a92c9369b1c97eea68ce54c85de75546dfea5c22f784bdb4d500&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=566&height=318

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#44  Edited By Deagonsex

Also ,

"...My Origin is Nothingness. As a result, Shiki, who is possessed of that body, can perceive death. Two years ago--- when she fell into a coma, the outside world was shut off to her. Her vision turned inward toward the nothingness called Ryougi Shiki, and she felt the touch of death.

Shiki floated on the sea known as the spiral of origin for a long, long time. A solitary form in the void of 「 」."

".... Spiral of origin, its where all cause and effect begin, where everything and nothing exist, that is my true identity.

「 」 [Others]

If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it "Kara".

Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.

However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.

To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.

tldr:

basically, the root is formless, and due to its nature being both everything and nothing, changes its outward appearance to whoever manages to observe or reach it, depending on their understanding of it

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#45  Edited By SeventhMoon

@deagonsex: extella zero verbatim states the CCC saber ending is the canon one.

The Extella version of CCC. The fact Tamamo is with Hakuno too, let alone the rest, absolutely confirm it isn't the actual Saber Route of CCC, because newsflash, Hakuno only has Nero in that actual CCC route.

only the saber ending is confirmed to have happened. gilgamesh would have no way to contract with hakuno

Just like how it'd be impossible for Tamamo to be contracted with Hakuno in the actual Saber Route of CCC? And in fact, she was indeed not there? It's almost like Extella's version of CCC is different or something.

Saber Altera? The same Altera that is the brain of the Void Cell that is a direct counter to the moon cell?

I was actually referring to Artoria. Base Gilgamesh > Artoria > Moon Crux Tamamo > Origin Tamamo. That makes absolutely no sense in the original Extra and is absolutely not the case. Every Origin Servant in OG CCC >>>>>>>>> Base Gilgamesh.

The moon cell is literally full of its food source, and was created by the same race as the moon celll creators.

Nothing you sent states that. But it doesn't matter. Doesn't help that a brick like Artoria is such a top-tier in Extella.

Velber's form strikes an optimal balance between offense and defense, and it has utilized that balance to wage victorious war against all sentient life in its path for eons.

Then why did Sefar get bricked to death by Excalibur? If she was an abstract reality warper on the scale of Extra's Moon Cell, Excalibur would be irrelevant.

for one, nasu has not even hired another writer to work ona type-MOON project until hollow ataraxia. even then, he wrote a majority of the script, and supervised everything.

He said he had no co-writers, but he absolutely had editors, as he has admitted countless of times. Either he's specifically talking about co-writers, or he was caught lying. Why? Because there are countless of things put into the story, removed from the story, etc. due to Nasu's team forcing Nasu to conform to THEIR vision. A basic example is the fact that Nrvnqsr and that entire portion of the story in Tsukihime was forced on Nasu by someone else, despite Nasu not wanting it:

"His role did not exist in Old Tsukihime. However, in the process of paring the length of the game down to ten days, the art director came forward with the proposal that the first half of the game should be livened up a bit.

'Eh? But I don’t wanna have an enemy besides Roa!'

The scenario director threw a tantrum, but in the end he relented and pulled Nrvnqsr out of the Mushroom Warehouse.

And, presto! Suddenly the flow of the story was just how the art director wanted it.

…Clever bastard." - Tsukihime Data Collection

Good decision too, considering the story would've dragged. Nasu is a hack that has always been regulated by others to make sure his works aren't dogshit. We've seen how shit he is when his team lets him do whatever in recent years, aka the travesty that was Last Encore.

Dude doesn't even remember basic fundamental lore of the older series and screws up information on them massively when recounting them, on top of his actual morals, nonsensical world views, etc. completely being in contradiction to the stories of Old TM. Hell, he was forced to restart Tsukihime from the ground up due to other people. The maid routes for Tsukihime were not his idea either IIRC. Other people also stopped him from putting Mash in FSN, which would've destroyed the story.

A roundtable with all members of TYPE-MOON on August 2nd, 2002, back when TYPE-MOON was still a doujin group. The roundtable goes over TYPE-MOON's origin, its members and its history, as well as insider information on 「Tsukihime」 and 「Kagetsu Tohya」.

Too bad. We know those other people regulated Nasu and made him revise shit based off what I sent alone about Nrvnqsr. Do you want even more examples? Just ask then. Fact of the matter is that he is behind the basic premise, but had massive help from people much smarter than him.

Tamamo would have no reason to sacrifice her tails in extella, as the moon cell NEEDS hakuno to fight against velber.

Tamamo could've done it in the unseen version of CCC or literally any Modern TM timeline dude. Again, you're reaching. I don't see how the Hakuno point is relevant beyond proving yet again that the Extella Moon Cell is different from Extra's.

they're both official art.

One is meme chibi parody art. One is actual art from the source material itself.

If interpretation A is backed with consitent showing, and intepretationn b is based off a background in a one-off collab event, i believe A is more consistent. A field with yellow sakura petals is Void Shiki's motif, its on herkkimono, and her realitymarbkle like last-arc has a flower pedal field as well.

Unfortunately, we're talking about something so fundamental that having any anti-feats can't be handwaved away. He did not go to Void's reality she made. He is in the Root.

yet the scans i show you say the universe can expand infinitely unimpeded, and notably omit any mention of the finite.

Again, repeating arguments I've obliterated with ease. I explained how it expanding means it is finite still. I explained that if it was infinite, there'd be no energy crisis. I explained how you can't get bigger infinities for energy, the size of things, etc., as set theory is incompatible with measure theory, which is what is used to measure our physical world. Your only retort was hyperreal numbers, to which I corrected you on what they actually are and how it doesn't help your argument in any capacity.

The origin awakened personality isnt much different from the original personality

The origin personality IS the original personality. This scan is talking about the personality of the mind not deviating too much from a past version of itself due to the origin's influence. It doesn't say anything about the personality of the mind and the origin being similar. The origin has influence on the mind's personality, but it is overall very different. Just look at Lio's origin personality compared to the one born from his mind.

nothing says he CANT do those things. lack of information doesnt mean it doesnt exist. You arent going to get massive lore drops on ONLY the near side route.

Dude, it hyped him being able to preform "a tiny bit" time travel via jumping to other parallel worlds causing a slight time lag:

"In addition, as a small amount of time lag occurs when he travels, he is also capable of a tiny bit of time travel as well." - Katatuki Kouhan

The fact that is hyped means he cannot do anything further. Hell, look at the rest of that there. The Second is incredibly limited in general. He can't even efficiently jump to other timelines without enough jewels being there to manifest his body. Shit tier.

the melty manga has a feat of siontanking warcueid's moon drop, but thats besdie the point.

Which is nowhere near star level, considering Wallachia controlling that Arcueid can't bring out her full power and thus didn't replicate the actual Moon's reality.

not even the same situation, as most of those are verbatim stated non-canon.

Most of it was stated to be non-canon? Most of the shit I mentioned were the parody routes of Melty Blood, which you kept insisting were canon. Now they aren't canon? Which is it?

he re-wrote the original draft ofmahoyo pretty much from scratch, which surprise suprise, this interview was released the same year as the annoucement of the Tsukihime Remake project.

He mainly talks about changing appearances and writing styles, while adding a bit of new stuff. And it doesn't matter much, considering that adaptions can deviate a lot from the original media of the series. Just look at the Tsukihime manga. Remember that this is mostly a VN adaption of the original novel.

Furthermore, he doesn't state that he remade it virtually from scratch. That is your poor misinterpretation of his words, as you're assuming he did that due to taking half a year. But this is the same guy that took well over a decade to even finish two routes of the Tsukihime Remake, meaning he logically got very little done in that half a year, even with help.

Arcueid (not A:E) has a 70% chance of victory,so theres that.

Fun fact: That's a Nasu WoG statement. And he's proven time and time again that his WoG statements are invalid. Or do you think Aoko is also only Servant level and Kirei is above Ciel?

Furthermore, that statement was Arcueid Vs. Aoko without the Fifth, as he states that if Arc corners Aoko thoughtlessly, she'll do something that Arc wouldn't like to the point Arc avoids her. This is obviously talking about the Fifth.

see above, also no, the fifth cannot replicate the second in its entirety.

Seems so. She did many things from the Second with it. And if you understand what the Fifth truly is (control over all active abstract laws governing creation), it's only natural she could replicate the effects in creation. She used many forms of time manipulation via the Fifth. She can use the Second. The end.

Nasu is talking about arcueid in general being the stromgest. which is obviously true, arcueid is the strongest in tsukihime/ mahoyo, any other answer is wrong.

OG Arcueid is fodder to Fifth Aoko, let alone Remake Arc. And if you think OG Arcueid (outside of Archetype) is the strongest Tsukihime character, then you are objectively wrong. That would go to Nanaya.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1191564264025104405/1196597941780103218/image.png?ex=65b835ad&is=65a5c0ad&hm=35b2ebaf0b75a92c9369b1c97eea68ce54c85de75546dfea

Again, you ignore all context. The fact you cut out the rest of the text is also suspicious.

We know Aoko is literally standing on Gaia the entire time she is connecting to the Swirl of the Root and soloing the cosmos:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

The flash of light is her mental imagery of her own mind. She is not astral projecting anywhere. All of the imagery and statements about reaching the Root in the flesh are hyperbole. If you take it literally, then Aoko is literally above the Root somehow, as this image shows her containing it:

No Caption Provided

Is Aoko omnipotent+ now? No. It's a symbolic visual of her having have reached it. She doesn't literally contain The One.

Shiki floated on the sea known as the spiral of origin for a long, long time. A solitary form in the void of 「 」."

Once again, symbolic wording. Void even says it's a "'place'" in quotation marks:

"—The swirl of the Root is a 'place' where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

Was Ryougi literally on a ship in the Swirl of the Root that crashed there?

"—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of「 」." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

You need to learn the difference between flowery wording and literal descriptions.

"But why are you not applying this logic to Fate/GO then?" Because Ritsuka literally astral projects to a non-symbolic clearly visual realm with skies, etc. in front of a person. Where has KnK's Root is nothingness from the physical perspective, with nothing to see, having no light or darkness, GO's Root is anything but that.

".... Spiral of origin, its where all cause and effect begin, where everything and nothing exist, that is my true identity.

All abstract potentials exist there, not literal physical things.

basically, the root is formless, and due to its nature being both everything and nothing, changes its outward appearance to whoever manages to observe or reach it, depending on their understanding of it

No, this is a complete misunderstanding on your part in regards to what the abstract is and what The One from Neoplatonism is, which is the primary thing the Root is based off of.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: extella zero verbatim states the CCC saber ending is the canon one.

The Extella version of CCC. The fact Tamamo is with Hakuno too, let alone the rest, absolutely confirm it isn't the actual Saber Route of CCC, because newsflash, Hakuno only has Nero in that actual CCC route.

Notice how I only mention the saber ENDING, not route.

only the saber ending is confirmed to have happened. gilgamesh would have no way to contract with hakuno

Just like how it'd be impossible for Tamamo to be contracted with Hakuno in the actual Saber Route of CCC? And in fact, she was indeed not there? It's almost like Extella's version of CCC is different or something.

Saber Altera? The same Altera that is the brain of the Void Cell that is a direct counter to the moon cell?

I was actually referring to Artoria. Base Gilgamesh > Artoria > Moon Crux Tamamo > Origin Tamamo. That makes absolutely no sense in the original Extra and is absolutely not the case. Every Origin Servant in OG CCC >>>>>>>>> Base Gilgamesh.

they're top servants designated by the moon cell,and given authority to defend it, which was Artorias purpose.

The moon cell is literally full of its food source, and was created by the same race as the moon celll creators.

Nothing you sent states that. But it doesn't matter. Doesn't help that a brick like Artoria is such a top-tier in Extella.

Velber's form strikes an optimal balance between offense and defense, and it has utilized that balance to wage victorious war against all sentient life in its path for eons.

Then why did Sefar get bricked to death by Excalibur? If she was an abstract reality warper on the scale of Extra's Moon Cell, Excalibur would be irrelevant.

Excalibur is made from the inner sea like a TA, Arc even calls it her cousin. ITs expliclity made to defend against threats to the planet and humanity.

On the other hand, the Holy Sword Constructmeasures “threats to human history”, and depending onthe level of the threat, the Earth's defensive ability...
Nemo Professor

That, y'know. The autopurifactory activity. Like awhite blood cell? That's basically how we get ourenergy supply from the Earth's core.

In both cases, the attack power and amount of energyused isn't coming from us, but is being pumped into theweapon from “something gre~ater”.

for one, nasu has not even hired another writer to work ona type-MOON project until hollow ataraxia. even then, he wrote a majority of the script, and supervised everything.

He said he had no co-writers, but he absolutely had editors, as he has admitted countless of times. Either he's specifically talking about co-writers, or he was caught lying. Why? Because there are countless of things put into the story, removed from the story, etc. due to Nasu's team forcing Nasu to conform to THEIR vision. A basic example is the fact that Nrvnqsr and that entire portion of the story in Tsukihime was forced on Nasu by someone else, despite Nasu not wanting it:

"His role did not exist in Old Tsukihime. However, in the process of paring the length of the game down to ten days, the art director came forward with the proposal that the first half of the game should be livened up a bit.

'Eh? But I don’t wanna have an enemy besides Roa!'

The scenario director threw a tantrum, but in the end he relented and pulled Nrvnqsr out of the Mushroom Warehouse.

And, presto! Suddenly the flow of the story was just how the art director wanted it.

…Clever bastard." - Tsukihime Data Collection

No, the interview just implies takeuchi wanted another enemy besides Roa, he didnt create the concept of Nrvnqsr or anything.

Good decision too, considering the story would've dragged. Nasu is a hack that has always been regulated by others to make sure his works aren't dogshit. We've seen how shit he is when his team lets him do whatever in recent years, aka the travesty that was Last Encore.

Dude doesn't even remember basic fundamental lore of the older series and screws up information on them massively when recounting them, on top of his actual morals, nonsensical world views, etc. completely being in contradiction to the stories of Old TM. Hell, he was forced to restart Tsukihime from the ground up due to other people. The maid routes for Tsukihime were not his idea either IIRC. Other people also stopped him from putting Mash in FSN, which would've destroyed the story.

A roundtable with all members of TYPE-MOON on August 2nd, 2002, back when TYPE-MOON was still a doujin group. The roundtable goes over TYPE-MOON's origin, its members and its history, as well as insider information on 「Tsukihime」 and 「Kagetsu Tohya」.

Too bad. We know those other people regulated Nasu and made him revise shit based off what I sent alone about Nrvnqsr. Do you want even more examples? Just ask then. Fact of the matter is that he is behind the basic premise, but had massive help from people much smarter than him.

KATEHe is Nasu Kinoko-sensei. (laughs).
NasuHey hey, don't call me sensei!
KATEHe does the script, as well as the overall direction. As a person, just like how he always says things like "dechu" in various media.
NasuHaha, I guess so huh.
KATE

Also, he has a weak stomach. (all laugh)

NasuDuring 「Tsukihime」 it was like "if Takeuchi-kun says 'this is very interesting' after being shown a heroine's scenario, then this is good, time to move on to the next heroine." During 「Kagetsu Tohya」 Takeuchi-kun was extremely busy, and no one had time to read the scenarios after they were done. I had no idea whether a scenario was fun or boring. Even if I thought one was extremely boring, since no one had time to look over it, I wasn't sure what to do.
———It was mentioned during the interview that Takeuchi-san and Nasu-san had more of an editor and writer relationship, but in a situation like that you couldn't really fulfill an editor role, could you?
Takeuchi

At times like those we were only able to discuss overall structure and basic ideas.

Tamamo would have no reason to sacrifice her tails in extella, as the moon cell NEEDS hakuno to fight against velber.

Tamamo could've done it in the unseen version of CCC or literally any Modern TM timeline dude. Again, you're reaching. I don't see how the Hakuno point is relevant beyond proving yet again that the Extella Moon Cell is different from Extra's.

they're both official art.

One is meme chibi parody art. One is actual art from the source material itself.

..... extra material is considered a meme now. okay.

If interpretation A is backed with consitent showing, and intepretationn b is based off a background in a one-off collab event, i believe A is more consistent. A field with yellow sakura petals is Void Shiki's motif, its on herkkimono, and her realitymarbkle like last-arc has a flower pedal field as well.

Unfortunately, we're talking about something so fundamental that having any anti-feats can't be handwaved away. He did not go to Void's reality she made. He is in the Root.

yet the scans i show you say the universe can expand infinitely unimpeded, and notably omit any mention of the finite.

Again, repeating arguments I've obliterated with ease. I explained how it expanding means it is finite still. I explained that if it was infinite, there'd be no energy crisis. I explained how you can't get bigger infinities for energy, the size of things, etc., as set theory is incompatible with measure theory, which is what is used to measure our physical world. Your only retort was hyperreal numbers, to which I corrected you on what they actually are and how it doesn't help your argument in any capacity.

FGO calls the universe infinite. the remake calls the universe infinite. And also, no, the hyperreals dont just deal in infinitesimal numbers., it deals in infinites as well. One example being ω, or the set of all real numbers,being able to be multiplied, or divided.

The origin awakened personality isnt much different from the original personality

The origin personality IS the original personality. This scan is talking about the personality of the mind not deviating too much from a past version of itself due to the origin's influence. It doesn't say anything about the personality of the mind and the origin being similar. The origin has influence on the mind's personality, but it is overall very different. Just look at Lio's origin personality compared to the one born from his mind.

His overall driving force did not change. His obessesion with shiki and his implusive killingurgecame before his origin awakening. Also Void states the reaon she likes MIkiya is because Ryougi does.

nothing says he CANT do those things. lack of information doesnt mean it doesnt exist. You arent going to get massive lore drops on ONLY the near side route.

Dude, it hyped him being able to preform "a tiny bit" time travel via jumping to other parallel worlds causing a slight time lag:

"In addition, as a small amount of time lag occurs when he travels, he is also capable of a tiny bit of time travel as well." - Katatuki Kouhan

The fact that is hyped means he cannot do anything further. Hell, look at the rest of that there. The Second is incredibly limited in general.

nothing implies that is the case.

The Second Magic concerns the attestation and application of parallel worlds.

By making it possible to travel to parallel worlds, he proved that there is still room for the world to develop in alternate ways.

Thanks to this, the world’s lifespan has been extended. Even if our history fails, and we destroy ourselves, there might still be others of us out there—this concept granted hope to the planet, which had been in the process of losing its dreams.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1163915380461412453/1197011610326278195/image.png?ex=65b9b6ef&is=65a741ef&hm=568d7d10cd97f327c5961f876afa9b7fb6b74fca46308ffc5bb31cd7d1001f36&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=583&height=415

  • a declaration that something exists or is the case."personal attestations and subjective claims only matter so much"
  • the action of being a witness to or formallycertifying something."he failed to prove the attestation of the will by the witness"

He can't even efficiently jump to other timelines without enough jewels being there to manifest his body. Shit tier. He can, he just chooses not to.

He originally travelled with just his physical body, but because of various circumstances he eventually settled for this method as it was the easiest.

the melty manga has a feat of siontanking warcueid's moon drop, but thats besdie the point.

Which is nowhere near star level, considering Wallachia controlling that Arcueid can't bring out her full power and thus didn't replicate the actual Moon's reality.

A moon crashing at relastivstic speeds is Dwarf-Star level. Ask @lordginsama for the calc, i gave it to him.

not even the same situation, as most of those are verbatim stated non-canon.

Most of it was stated to be non-canon? Most of the shit I mentioned were the parody routes of Melty Blood, which you kept insisting were canon. Now they aren't canon? Which is it?

No, I said back alley alliance nightmare iscanon,which is true because of Nasu's foreword.

he re-wrote the original draft ofmahoyo pretty much from scratch, which surprise suprise, this interview was released the same year as the annoucement of the Tsukihime Remake project.

He mainly talks about changing appearances and writing styles, while adding a bit of new stuff. And it doesn't matter much, considering that adaptions can deviate a lot from the original media of the series. Just look at the Tsukihime manga. Remember that this is mostly a VN adaption of the original novel.

Furthermore, he doesn't state that he remade it virtually from scratch. That is your poor misinterpretation of his words, as you're assuming he did that due to taking half a year. But this is the same guy that took well over a decade to even finish two routes of the Tsukihime Remake, meaning he logically got very little done in that half a year, even with help.

He delayed the tsukiremake for 7 yeras because of FGO. its original releas ewas planned for 2014.

It was like trying to preserve the interesting parts from the past while adding in new things on top of the old foundation. It was much faster to start from zero. Actually, for something totally new, the faster I write it, the faster it'll get done, but I also needed to preserve the feelings from back then, otherwise the reasons for digging outMahoutsukai no Yoruwould be lost.

Arcueid (not A:E) has a 70% chance of victory,so theres that.

Fun fact: That's a Nasu WoG statement. And he's proven time and time again that his WoG statements are invalid. Or do you think Aoko is also only Servant level and Kirei is above Ciel?

Furthermore, that statement was Arcueid Vs. Aoko without the Fifth, as he states that if Arc corners Aoko thoughtlessly, she'll do something that Arc wouldn't like to the point Arc avoids her. This is obviously talking about the Fifth.

Aoko is constantly redshifted by the time of Tsukihime.

see above, also no, the fifth cannot replicate the second in its entirety.

Seems so. She did many things from the Second with it. And if you understand what the Fifth truly is (control over all active abstract laws governing creation), it's only natural she could replicate the effects in creation. She used many forms of time manipulation via the Fifth. She can use the Second. The end.

The Fifth magic is stated tobe "consumption/extinction and advancement"

Mr. Nasu:

 On the other hand, Goetia, who is the evil of humanity, loves humans after all, so he tried to come up with his own optimal solution for humans and somehow overcome the suffering that humans have. The result was the choice to solve the problem by once again creating from scratch an intelligent life form that does not have the concept of death.

4Gamer:Is

that act “retrograde canal/creation light year” (* )?

*From the teaser movie of part 1.5. In the narration, it is said that the plan of the thing that calls itself the King of Sorcerers is ``Retrograde Canal/Light Year of Creation''. This name is the same as Aoko Aosaki's last arc that appears in the ``MELTY BLOOD'' series.

Mr. Nasu:

 Yes. Goetia's choice to ``go back to zero and then recreate a good premise'' was, in a sense, an act close to magic. Rather, that PV is a hint that by knowing Goetia, one can learn about Aoko's traces and part of the Fifth Magic... This is Kinoko Nasu's humble spirit of service (lol).

Nasu is talking about arcueid in general being the stromgest. which is obviously true, arcueid is the strongest in tsukihime/ mahoyo, any other answer is wrong.

OG Arcueid is fodder to Fifth Aoko, let alone Remake Arc. And if you think OG Arcueid (outside of Archetype) is the strongest Tsukihime character, then you are objectively wrong. That would go to Nanaya.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1191564264025104405/1196597941780103218/image.png?ex=65b835ad&is=65a5c0ad&hm=35b2ebaf0b75a92c9369b1c97eea68ce54c85de75546dfea

Again, you ignore all context. The fact you cut out the rest of the text is also suspicious.

We know Aoko is literally standing on Gaia the entire time she is connecting to the Swirl of the Root and soloing the cosmos:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

The flash of light is her mental imagery of her own mind. She is not astral projecting anywhere. All of the imagery and statements about reaching the Root in the flesh are hyperbole.

You need to open a path to the Root to use TM.

If you take it literally, then Aoko is literally above the Root somehow, as this image shows her containing it:

No Caption Provided

Is Aoko omnipotent+ now? No. It's a symbolic visual of her having have reached it. She doesn't literally contain The One.

The text doesnt imply that in the slighest, unlike image of her seeing a bluelight.

Shiki floated on the sea known as the spiral of origin for a long, long time. A solitary form in the void of 「 」."

Once again, symbolic wording. Void even says it's a "'place'" in quotation marks:

"—The swirl of the Root is a 'place' where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

Was Ryougi literally on a ship in the Swirl of the Root that crashed there?

"—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of「 」." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

The text says shipwrcked because she's stuck floating in there.

You need to learn the difference between flowery wording and literal descriptions.

"But why are you not applying this logic to Fate/GO then?" Because Ritsuka literally astral projects to a non-symbolic clearly visual realm with skies, etc. in front of a person. Where has KnK's Root is nothingness from the physical perspective, with nothing to see, having no light or darkness, GO's Root is anything but that.

".... Spiral of origin, its where all cause and effect begin, where everything and nothing exist, that is my true identity.

All abstract potentials exist there, not literal physical things.

EVERYTHING. exists there.

basically, the root is formless, and due to its nature being both everything and nothing, changes its outward appearance to whoever manages to observe or reach it, depending on their understanding of it

No, this is a complete misunderstanding on your part in regards to what the abstract is and what The One from Neoplatonism is, which is the primary thing the Root is based off of.

The mats literally say the definition of what the root is varies for each indivdual. JUst because it borrow a few aspects doesnt mean it IS that thing.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Notice how I only mention the saber ENDING, not route.

It's not the same ending. Tamamo does not exist there. Regalia BS doesn't exist there. It's not the same thing.

they're top servants designated by the moon cell,and given authority to defend it, which was Artorias purpose.

I'm aware.

they're top servants designated by the moon cell,and given authority to defend it, which was Artorias purpose.

That doesn't matter. It's literally a brick attack.

He does the script, as well as the overall direction. As a person, just like how he always says things like "dechu" in various media.

Team: "Restart Tsukihime from basically scratch."

Nasu: "Ok."

Team: "Add Nrvnqsr to the story."

Nasu: "I don't want to, but ok."

Team: "Add the maid routes."

Nasu: "Ok."

Team: "Remove that Mash character and her arc from FSN."

Nasu: "Ok."

Need I go on?

During 「Tsukihime」 it was like "if Takeuchi-kun says 'this is very interesting' after being shown a heroine's scenario, then this is good, time to move on to the next heroine." During 「Kagetsu Tohya」 Takeuchi-kun was extremely busy, and no one had time to read the scenarios after they were done. I had no idea whether a scenario was fun or boring. Even if I thought one was extremely boring, since no one had time to look over it, I wasn't sure what to do.

Yeah? And KT was pretty mid too in terms of the main story. Only makes sense the quality dropped once Nasu worked on it mostly alone. The side stories were good, but oh right, other authors outright worked on those, like the author of Overlord writing Dawn.

..... extra material is considered a meme now. okay.

Imagine using a non-serious chibi picture in extra materials over a canonical picture in the source material.

FGO calls the universe infinite.

Repeating the same debunked arguments. Infinite universe in a timeline =/= infinite timelines. That universe, despite being infinite, would only have finite energy too, considering the whole issue of entire timelines having finite energy that keeps expanding and is a threat to the greater universe containing said timelines.

And also, no, the hyperreals dont just deal in infinitesimal numbers., it deals in infinites as well. One example being ω, or the set of all real numbers,being able to be multiplied, or divided.

And those infinities you speak of aren't applicable to measure theory. I suggest you read my debunk of cosmology tiering > here. <

His overall driving force did not change. His obessesion with shiki and his implusive killingurgecame before his origin awakening.

But it didn't. He killed hesitantly to prove to Ryougi he's strong, since she called him weak, not realizing she meant mentally. Yes, his impulse to consume is there, but his personality of the mind is merely influenced by it. It's far different than his actual origin personality. You'd know that if you read the novel, but you didn't. And in case you say you have, don't. I know you didn't.

Also Void states the reaon she likes MIkiya is because Ryougi does.

Yes? Void also acts nothing like normal Ryougi and would end creation if she had it her way, despite loving Mikiya. But despite also hating reality, Ryougi would prefer to endure it if it meant being with Mikiya and uses her willpower to stop Void from acting on her goal instead. There are similarities, but also things that entirely conflict.

nothing implies that is the case.

You tell me it's more than about parallel world hopping, but then proceed to send me that it's only about parallel world hopping. Thank you.

He originally travelled with just his physical body, but because of various circumstances he eventually settled for this method as it was the easiest.

Keyword was me saying "efficiently." I didn't say he couldn't do it at all. But that not being easy for him is shit-tier compared to what OG Zelretch could do.

A moon crashing at relastivstic speeds is Dwarf-Star level.

Why are you assuming it crashed at relativistic speeds? Why are you assuming that it was the same distance away from the Millennium Castle in that reality marble as the moon normally is to Earth? And why do you think Sion tanked all of that, when she'd logically only tank a fraction of it when factoring in her size.

Fact of the matter is that Nrvnqsr hyped 500 of his lives to be continental. And Nrvnqsr would and has shit on Sion before.

No, I said back alley alliance nightmare iscanon,which is true because of Nasu's foreword.

You kept using Neco Arc and defending Melty Blood parody routes as being canon and now you're lying about it?

He delayed the tsukiremake for 7 yeras because of FGO. its original releas ewas planned for 2014.

Yet the remake started in 2008, meaning it'd have taken him 6 years if not impeded by GO, and only the Near Side routes. Furthermore, there were other projects being worked on during Mahoyo's development like Extra, CCC, etc.

It was much faster to start from zero.

But he didn't actually start from zero, considering he copied most of the story from the old. Soujuurou's leash, Aoko and Touko's entire story, the ending, the 5th Magic, Touko losing Beowulf in the final conflict (as mentioned in KnK). Virtually all of it was the same for the most part. Starting from literally zero is starting completely over on the story and everything, which blatantly did not happen. All that meant is that he started over rewriting to reword and reformat it in his current writing style and to fit in a VN adaption.

Aoko is constantly redshifted by the time of Tsukihime.

Dude, it's a hair color. Aoko probably got that color during the Fifth due to the fact she advanced her time to be her adult self when she had that hair color. It's not even glowing in Tsukihime. And even bricks can defeat Aoko there like White Len Nanaya and Nrvnqsr. Do you really think all of these characters beat Fifth Aoko? Are you joking? You talk about damaging the verse, but you're collapsing it into complete incoherent nonsense.

The Fifth magic is stated tobe "consumption/extinction and advancement"

Touko theorized that. And it may be related to that in a way, but what the Fifth has displayed against the cosmos and even restricted against Touko goes far beyond just that. The true nature is stated to be unknown, but we know it's related to the abstract based off feats.

Furthermore, your Nasu statement speaks nothing about the truth of Aoko's Fifth at all. I have no idea why you sent it. And regardless, I've debunked Nasu being a credible source on anything countless of times in the other thread we debated in. Doesn't know the basic lore of the old series whatsoever. No point in even bringing him up beyond development processes maybe. In terms of lore statements? Zero credibility.

The text doesnt imply that in the slighest, unlike image of her seeing a bluelight.

The image literally shows the symbolic image of the Root IN Aoko entirely.

EVERYTHING. exists there.

Everything starts with the abstract. All abstract beginnings are there, not physical things.

The mats literally say the definition of what the root is varies for each indivdual.

The mats don't say that at all. People do have different ideas on what the Root is, but some are wrong. The most objective statements we have on it are people like Void.

JUst because it borrow a few aspects doesnt mean it IS that thing.

Bro, it doesn't just borrow aspects of Neoplatonism. It literally IS The One. It is called that several times and uses its terminology and descriptions.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Taiji shit is just background modifications to turn The One from a sentient omnipotent, as seen in Neoplatonism, to a non-sentient boundless source with no sentient mind controlling it fully yet.

Avatar image for deagonsex
Deagonsex

133

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Notice how I only mention the saber ENDING, not route.

It's not the same ending. Tamamo does not exist there. Regalia BS doesn't exist there. It's not the same thing.

they're top servants designated by the moon cell,and given authority to defend it, which was Artorias purpose.

I'm aware.

they're top servants designated by the moon cell,and given authority to defend it, which was Artorias purpose.

That doesn't matter. It's literally a brick attack.

Divine Constructs forged by the planet are anything but "bricks" ALso, the moon cell easily overpowers origin seervants.

He does the script, as well as the overall direction. As a person, just like how he always says things like "dechu" in various media.

Team: "Restart Tsukihime from basically scratch."

Nasu: "Ok."

Team: "Add Nrvnqsr to the story."

Nasu: "I don't want to, but ok."

Team: "Add the maid routes."

Nasu: "Ok."

Team: "Remove that Mash character and her arc from FSN."

Nasu: "Ok."

Need I go on?

It was more like:

Takeuchi: "Rewrite the first half of the near side"

Nasu: "Ok."

Takeuchi: "Wouldnt it be cool if there was another villain?"

Nasu: "Not really, but sure."

Takeuchi: "Create some maid heroines"

Nasu: "Sure"

Nasu descided to remove tachies route from fsn by himself. EVen then, he tried 2 moree times to brin g it back as a seperate anime original route

During 「Tsukihime」 it was like "if Takeuchi-kun says 'this is very interesting' after being shown a heroine's scenario, then this is good, time to move on to the next heroine." During 「Kagetsu Tohya」 Takeuchi-kun was extremely busy, and no one had time to read the scenarios after they were done. I had no idea whether a scenario was fun or boring. Even if I thought one was extremely boring, since no one had time to look over it, I wasn't sure what to do.

Yeah? And KT was pretty mid too in terms of the main story. Only makes sense the quality dropped once Nasu worked on it mostly alone. The side stories were good, but oh right, other authors outright worked on those, like the author of Overlord writing Dawn.

..... extra material is considered a meme now. okay.

Imagine using a non-serious chibi picture in extra materials over a canonical picture in the source material.

the materials are canonical.

FGO calls the universe infinite.

Repeating the same debunked arguments. Infinite universe in a timeline =/= infinite timelines. That universe, despite being infinite, would only have finite energy too, considering the whole issue of entire timelines having finite energy that keeps expanding and is a threat to the greater universe containing said timelines.

the universe also refers to the enitre multiverse, as seen in mahoyo and tsuki re.

And also, no, the hyperreals dont just deal in infinitesimal numbers., it deals in infinites as well. One example being ω, or the set of all real numbers,being able to be multiplied, or divided.

And those infinities you speak of aren't applicable to measure theory. I suggest you read my debunk of cosmology tiering > here. <

His overall driving force did not change. His obessesion with shiki and his implusive killingurgecame before his origin awakening.

But it didn't. He killed hesitantly to prove to Ryougi he's strong, since she called him weak, not realizing she meant mentally. Yes, his impulse to consume is there, but his personality of the mind is merely influenced by it. It's far different than his actual origin personality. You'd know that if you read the novel, but you didn't. And in case you say you have, don't. I know you didn't.

Also Void states the reaon she likes MIkiya is because Ryougi does.

Yes? Void also acts nothing like normal Ryougi and would end creation if she had it her way, despite loving Mikiya. But despite also hating reality, Ryougi would prefer to endure it if it meant being with Mikiya and uses her willpower to stop Void from acting on her goal instead. There are similarities, but also things that entirely conflict.

Normal Shiki in FGO behaves similarly.

nothing implies that is the case.

You tell me it's more than about parallel world hopping, but then proceed to send me that it's only about parallel world hopping. Thank you.

"

a declaration that something exists or is the case."

Seems similar to his ability to confirm parrallel worlds and make them happen.

He originally travelled with just his physical body, but because of various circumstances he eventually settled for this method as it was the easiest.

Keyword was me saying "efficiently." I didn't say he couldn't do it at all. But that not being easy for him is shit-tier compared to what OG Zelretch could do.

nothing says he has difficulty in doing it,just that this new method requires 0 effort on his part.

A moon crashing at relastivstic speeds is Dwarf-Star level.

Why are you assuming it crashed at relativistic speeds?

Light takes 1.3 seconds to reach the earth. Sion could barely think before the moon crashes on her.

Why are you assuming that it was the same distance away from the Millennium Castle in that reality marble as the moon normally is to Earth?

Mirror image of the moon. We know arc's MP works that far, as she uses it to bring the CM back early.

And why do you think Sion tanked all of that, when she'd logically only tank a fraction of it when factoring in her size.

The attack is focused on sion, we see her take damage even before the moon lands. Tohno doesn't get hit either,even though he's 5 meters away from her at max.

Fact of the matter is that Nrvnqsr hyped 500 of his lives to be continental. And Nrvnqsr would and has shit on Sion before.

500. We dont know how durable all 666 are. I doubt its a linear increase considering what he has in there.

No, I said back alley alliance nightmare iscanon,which is true because of Nasu's foreword.

You kept using Neco Arc and defending Melty Blood parody routes as being canon and now you're lying about it?

where did i say anything about neco-arc in this thread, or in ANY of my debates with you?

He delayed the tsukiremake for 7 yeras because of FGO. its original releas ewas planned for 2014.

Yet the remake started in 2008, meaning it'd have taken him 6 years if not impeded by GO, and only the Near Side routes. Furthermore, there were other projects being worked on during Mahoyo's development like Extra, CCC, etc.

It was much faster to start from zero.

But he didn't actually start from zero, considering he copied most of the story from the old. Soujuurou's leash, Aoko and Touko's entire story, the ending, the 5th Magic, Touko losing Beowulf in the final conflict (as mentioned in KnK). Virtually all of it was the same for the most part. Starting from literally zero is starting completely over on the story and everything, which blatantly did not happen.

All that meant is that he started over rewriting to reword and reformat it in his current writing style and to fit in a VN adaption.

reformat it to fit the remake, as its a prequel.

Aoko is constantly redshifted by the time of Tsukihime.

Dude, it's a hair color. Aoko probably got that color during the Fifth due to the fact she advanced her time to be her adult self when she had that hair color.

She has that color BEFORE she takes 10 years from shizuki

It's not even glowing in Tsukihime. And even bricks can defeat Aoko there like White Len Nanaya and Nrvnqsr. Do you really think all of these characters beat Fifth Aoko? Are you joking? You talk about damaging the verse, but you're collapsing it into complete incoherent nonsense.

Aoko in melty is not serious.

In Melty Blood Re-act, she appears as a hidden boss. As expected of someone with the nickname Magic Gunner, it's like fighting a living artillery battery. Also, maybe it's because she's not really taking it seriously, but her apathetic voice is pretty great.

It should already be obvious from her knockout, but even the melty blood mats say so.

The Fifth magic is stated tobe "consumption/extinction and advancement"

Touko theorized that. And it may be related to that in a way, but what the Fifth has displayed against the cosmos and even restricted against Touko goes far beyond just that. The true nature is stated to be unknown, but we know it's related to the abstract based off feats.

Furthermore, your Nasu statement speaks nothing about the truth of Aoko's Fifth at all. I have no idea why you sent it. And regardless, I've debunked Nasu being a credible source on anything countless of times in the other thread we debated in. Doesn't know the basic lore of the old series whatsoever.

He wrote ALL of it, so that doesnt make any sense.

No point in even bringing him up beyond development processes maybe. In terms of lore statements? Zero credibility.

The text doesnt imply that in the slighest, unlike image of her seeing a bluelight.

The image literally shows the symbolic image of the Root IN Aoko entirely.

She still

EVERYTHING. exists there.

Everything starts with the abstract. All abstract beginnings are there, not physical things.

The mats literally say the definition of what the root is varies for each indivdual.

The mats don't say that at all

Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding.

yes it does. Makes sense considering how in EVERY appearance it makes in TM works, it always looks different. Mahoyo? White void with a blue light. Tsuki RE? Black void with a green light. KnK? Shiki describes it as a "sea"

People do have different ideas on what the Root is, but some are wrong. The most objective statements we have on it are people like Void.

JUst because it borrow a few aspects doesnt mean it IS that thing.

Bro, it doesn't just borrow aspects of Neoplatonism. It literally IS The One. It is called that several times and uses its terminology and descriptions.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Taiji shit is just background modifications to turn The One from a sentient omnipotent, as seen in Neoplatonism, to a non-sentient boundless source with no sentient mind controlling it fully yet.

Avatar image for seventhmoon
SeventhMoon

982

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deagonsex: Divine Constructs forged by the planet are anything but "bricks"

Why is Excalibur a brick weapon then? You could argue releasing the seals give it more special traits, but several seals lifted give it precisely none, so that's very suspect.

ALso, the moon cell easily overpowers origin seervants.

The Moon Cell as a whole is capable of more versatile abstract reality warping than the Origin Servants in Extra. It has nothing to do with it overpowering them via brute force.

Nasu descided to remove tachies route from fsn by himself. EVen then, he tried 2 moree times to brin g it back as a seperate anime original route

Got a source for that? Because every time Nasu or Takeuchi mentions her development, they saw "we".

the materials are canonical.

If extra materials contradict source material, it is not canon by default.

the universe also refers to the enitre multiverse, as seen in mahoyo and tsuki re.

Mahoyo? That's kept vague, but I agree it should be for TLDR reasons.

In the Tsukihime Remake though? Are you talking about the celestial egg and the cosmos in Arcueid? Because that's explicitly referring to a universe in Gaia IIRC.

Normal Shiki in FGO behaves similarly.

GO Ryougi doesn't give a shit that Mikiya is dead. And again, GO Void, the main thing that causes a canon disconnect, is entirely different.

Seems similar to his ability to confirm parrallel worlds and make them happen.

The fact those worlds need jewels for him to efficiently travel to means they already exist. And even if he could confirm them, that's a far cry from all the things OG Zelretch was able to do.

nothing says he has difficulty in doing it,just that this new method requires 0 effort on his part.

Why would it require effort? He's done much more mechanically complex things casually, such as confirming potential futures as true being so easy that he has to be careful not to accidentally do it in SF. Or him being able to casually alter the traits of entire characters.

Light takes 1.3 seconds to reach the earth. Sion could barely think before the moon crashes on her.

Again, we don't know how far away the Moon was from the Millennium Castle there.

And actually, we know that the speed of which the Moon travels =/= the force, considering Sion is MFTL+ to an absurd degree, scaling to the suppressed Arc ranges, which is beneath, but relative to Types, which are relative to Origin Servants and the Moon Cell physically, which has MFTL+ feats. If speed was a factor in the force of the hit, do you know how hard that would've hit Sion? I won't even bother telling you. Fact of the matter is that physics work differently there than IRL for the most part. And Angel Notes and Nrvnqsr hard-cap the physicals of Old TM at around continental to multi-continental for the vast majority of the characters.

Mirror image of the moon. We know arc's MP works that far, as she uses it to bring the CM back early.

A mirror image of the moon doesn't mean it was spawned at the same distance. And it was a counterfeit version, as Wallachia could not utilize Arcueid's true power.

The attack is focused on sion, we see her take damage even before the moon lands. Tohno doesn't get hit either,even though he's 5 meters away from her at max.

Tohno is all the way at the bottom of the castle at the time. If he was right next to her, he'd have gotten hit too due to the size of it.

500. We dont know how durable all 666 are. I doubt its a linear increase considering what he has in there.

No, I said back alley allianc

Ah yes. 500 of his lives are continental fodder and the other 166 are star level or multiversal++++. Yeah, no.

where did i say anything about neco-arc in this thread, or in ANY of my debates with you?

You literally talked about Modern TM being canon to Old TM because the Neco Arc in TL is the same one from OG MB, even though the Neco Arc of Old MB isn't actually canon to anything.

reformat it to fit the remake, as its a prequel.

Your assumption. The Mahoyo VN took place in Old TM Era still. And even if that was Nasu's intention (not stated), his intention means shit, considering all of his objectively incorrect fanfiction WoG statements.

She has that color BEFORE she takes 10 years from shizuki

But she didn't. It told us she took that much after it all already happened. It was talking about it in past tense dude. lmao Like... actually read the source material you're debating so fiercely for at least.

Aoko in melty is not serious.

Aoko in Melty is not serious against mid and low-tiers like Sion and Yumizuka. Nrvnqsr forced her to retreat and White Len Nanaya kills her in his route, despite her being serious on killing him and being in a serious mood period.

And if she wasn't serious, why are you arguing that Aoko is always using the Fifth to try and back up Arc > Fifth Aoko? You just said she's not serious in MB. That completely goes against your previous argument.

He wrote ALL of it, so that doesnt make any sense.

But he clearly didn't. I've given you countless of examples in the other thread that Nasu is incredibly suspect as an author, considering he forgets basic lore details all the time, even when it hasn't been long after he made said works. I've sent you the sources before, so let's go over a few again.

One: He says that KnK and Tsukihime are different timelines because Aoko's age doesn't line up between the works, with her still being an apprentice during the events of KnK. But the KnK novel states that Aoko is a magician, described the events of Mahoyo happening, and stated Aoko was in highschool many years ago (8 IIRC) before KnK.

Two: Nasu's most infamously stupid blunder is him saying Aoko and Kishima are only Servant level, Ciel is only defensive Servant level, Void MAY be defensive Servant level, Shiki Tohno can't fight Servants at all, and excluded all Types, Akiha, Zelretch, Ado Edem, etc. from being able to fight Servants by not including them in the list of those who could. All of this is blatantly incorrect to anyone who has read these old works and has basc reading comprehension.

Three: Nasu turns around and says Void is the second strongest in the verse above Primordial Demons from DDD. WoG contradicting WoG.

Four: Nasu states Kirei can beat Ciel, even though Ciel is immortal, can fight the Melty Blood cast relative to and above 30+% Arcueid that is in the Type range, with Ciel stated to be Grand Level in magecraft due to having knowledge of Roa's magecraft. With Ciel being a part of the Burial Agency, which was founded by Roa to fight various things, such as FALLEN True Ancestors, aka True Ancestors no longer using their will to suppress their bloodlust and can instead use that will to fully utilize Marble Phantasm that can reality warp Gaia on an abstract level. Meanwhile, Kirei is an executioner meant to stamp out low-tier shit for the Catholic Church. And he was compared to a Dead Apostle at his PEAK in the Zero novel, which are slaughtered by Ciel casually with ease. How does he deal with her grand magecraft? How does he deal with her immortality? How does he keep up with her physically? How does he deal with her better arsenal? He can't. He objectively gets blinked out of existence by Ciel at her absolute weakest. Nasu's word here is literally fanfiction.

Five: Nasu says Gilgamesh could solo the Fifth War in a night if he was serious, which makes sense. But then later on he says Living Gilgamesh would struggle with and be generally relative to Saber Alter, which is not only contradicted by all lore, but contradicted by his own prior WoG.

Six: Nasu has contradicted himself on how God Hand works 300+ times.

Seven: Nasu says Shirou can't project Excalibur, yet he literally does in HF.

Eight: Nasu says Shiki Tohno at his peak would barely beat Shirou and overall stalemate due to his eyes overloading, causing him to die even though his eyes evolved to where straining wasn't a big deal later on. And even when they were, he never died comprehending far more complex and abstract things than shitty NPs, such as Roa's soul, Nrvnqsr's reality marble, the metaphysical information of Tatari, Maiko Yamase, etc. Then combine that with the fact that him at his peak literally blitzes his own series, aside from Archetype-Earth, with said series being MFTL+ out the ass due to various things, while Shirou is barely supersonic fodder. Then once more, combine that with the fact that Shiki scales to the continental range of all the MB cast and Angel Notes, since they are all generally in the Type ranges. And White Len Nanaya (weaker than the real Tohno and Nanaya) physically destroys Nrvnqsr, as he didn't have MEoDP in that manifestation and you have a continental feat at the bare minimum there for him. What is Shirou doing? He gets blitzed. He physically gets one-shotted. And all of his hax are irrelevant to MEoDP. More mindless nonsense. Even if you argue that Nasu doesn't factor in all of this (even though Angel Notes and several Tsukihime series explicitly do), narratively speaking, Tohno is depicted as the ultimate killer that is far above everyone when tapping fully into his instincts, with Sion stating that Wallachia IN Arcueid's body attacking Tohno in a head-on fight was tantamount to suicide. Tohno also blitzed and physically stomped DA Sion that is above her base self that could somewhat keep up with Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power and could survive the moon slam. There are countless of examples. Nanaya even embarrassed Arcueid by casually dodging all of her lethal-intent attacks while making fun of her.

Nine: Nasu said Ryougi is mentally weak while Mikiya was painted as the mentally strong guide, which is not true at all. The KnK novel treated both of them as mentally strong, with Mikiya only being "equally as fierce" as Ryougi, but in his own way.

Ten: Nasu said Remake Arcueid is the strongest TM character, but then turned around a few months later and said Modern ORT is. Which is it?

There's far more. I could keep going on and on. He's not a credible source. Other team members make fun of his shitty WoG. He felt that Gen had more authority over him on Zero. He has people force him to revise shit. And all of his actual world views are in direct conflict with pretty much all of the messages from every Old TM series. The dude is such a schizophrenic that he talked about the Old TM works being sexist. Has asinine moral values like saying no one deserves to be killed. Has objectively wrong world views like being physically and combatively strong means nothing, because "anyone can pick up a sword." And he says total nonsense like the shit-tier Heaven's Feel anime adaptions being as good as, if not better than the source material, even though the logic of it is butchered, on top of being vague as hell and horribly executed. This guy is a walking logic error. To think he wrote a bunch of extremely consistent lengthy novels and VNs by himself for the most part is absurd.

She still

She still what? Your sentence cut off here.

Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding.

I just addressed this in my last post:

People do have different ideas on what the Root is, but some are wrong. The most objective statements we have on it are people like Void.

^ Right there.

Makes sense considering how in EVERY appearance it makes in TM works, it always looks different.

Because every appearance of it isn't literal. It's a symbolic representation for the reader. The Root can't actually be seen visually in a literal manner because it's abstract.

Shiki describes it as a "sea"

I just went over hyperbole and metaphors with you. Was Ryougi on a literal ship that crashed in an ocean? Because that's what we get if we take Void's clearly metaphorical words literally here:

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".

Avatar image for originalsin
OriginalSin

103

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@seventhmoon:

Nasu said Ryougi is mentally weak while Mikiya was painted as the mentally strong guide, which is not true at all. The KnK novel treated both of them as mentally strong, with Mikiya only being "equally as fierce" as Ryougi, but in his own way.

When did he say that?

And uh being real I'd prolly just ignore that Deagon guy seems like he's stalking you in literally any TM related thread.