Archetype Arcueid Brunestud, Composite Gilgamesh And BB vs Lamont Heartfelt Vanity

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debunkdude

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#51 debunkdude  Online

@SergeantMuscle: I see you have dropped the beyond omnipotence a bit.Can you specify whether the character you mentioned falls under linear power or not?

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debunkdude

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#52 debunkdude  Online

The very design of Pendulum Kingbreaker (Lamont Heartfelt Vanity) is shown to represent that he has now surpassed Suggsverse itself.

He falls under linear power arcueid one shots.

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ShadowRazer24

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bruh..

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debunkdude

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#54 debunkdude  Online

Yuh bruh?

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Bossmountain

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debunkdude

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#56 debunkdude  Online

@Bossmountain: means if the given character has someone who exceeds him in raw power or if the given character clearly falls under a heirarchy then arcueid oneshots.

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SergeantMuscle

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#57  Edited By SergeantMuscle

@debunkdude: you do know his the passive ability to reverse the abilities of others making them do opposite of what they're suppos to and even swapped the target of those powers if he desire.

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debunkdude

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#58 debunkdude  Online

@SeargentMuscle: Arcueid's hax exceeds linear power while your character falls under it so it is a NLF

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SergeantMuscle

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@debunkdude: "The very design of Pendulum Kingbreaker (Lamont Heartfelt Vanity) is shown to represent that he has now surpassed Suggsverse itself. That which can only be interpreted as a potential higher hierarchy is why he is so massive. Suggsverse itself is nothing but a part of him. However, just like his brother, he has once again appeared as a form akin to a paradox."

He is not under a hierarchy he IS the hierarchy ..

how is what I'm arguing a no limits fallacy? These these guys can blink away infinite Omni verses by flexing a finger if anything you should prove that she can transcend their hierarchy. .

Not that that would matter if her powers is passively inverted

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debunkdude

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#60 debunkdude  Online

@SeargentMuscle: It does not matter what the size of their omniverse is.As long as they fall under any power heirarchy,stomp for Arcueid.Also He became the heirarchy clearly still means he falls under linear power.Arcueid is possibly only limited by the omnipotent of her verse while suggverse has no omnipotent

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SergeantMuscle

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#61  Edited By SergeantMuscle

@debunkdude: "It does not matter what the size of their omniverse is.As long as they fall under any power heirarchy stomp for Arcueid,"

How is that not a nfl? " she magically jump ranks of any verse power system regardless power,size,dimensionalaity ,cosmology and her only limit is omnipotence "

That what an NFl is! Claiming a character hax can only be resisted by literally omnipotence.

Don't see why he can't just passively reserve her abilities nothing suggest she is natural at his tier without the use of said hax. And his power and cosmology is beyond anything in her verse.

"Also He became the heirarchy clearly still means he falls under linear power."

Being a building is not the same. being under a building.

Arcueid is possibly only limited by the omnipotent of her verse while suggverse has no omnipotent"

Yes there is omnipotent is Sv

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debunkdude

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#62 debunkdude  Online

@SeargentMuscle: That's not a claim.Since there is an omnipotent in nasuverse,that means the concepts in nasuverse are in the most platonic and fundamental.For example the concept of death emanating from the omnipotent of the verse is the most fundamental form the concept of death can take.Arcueid is beyond such a concept of death.Such concepts cannot exist in suggverse bcoz there is NO omnipotent in suggverse

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SergeantMuscle

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@debunkdude: the SV does have omnipotence its on the bottom of the hierarchy.

Characters far weaker than the one mentioned can easily manipulate boundaries such as life and death existence and non-existence omnipotent imnponetent.

By the third and fourth floor the cosmology all Concepts and ideas that can be imagined and conceived breakdown leaving in the state that cannot be described. Conceptual manipulation and narrative manipulation are literally a joke to these characters.

Characters in sv cannot only manipulate conceptual they can literally redefined the concept or create brand new Concepts the use in battle. As well as being able to redefined themselves and their existence since this is a requirement to exist on thrid floor

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debunkdude

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#64 debunkdude  Online

Beyond omnipotence in=>I go Out

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johnsmjs36

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#65 johnsmjs36  Online

@debunkdude: Like I said before. The Suggsverse seem to have characters that possess limited Omnipotence based on general perception. It is not truly Omnipotence but rather a small ceiling that could be surpassed.

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debunkdude

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#66 debunkdude  Online

@johnsmjs36: Yes thats it.It is not true omnipotence.But in that sense it is wrong to call it omnipotence.Something like "all doing hax"is better.

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One_of_Two

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@debunkdude: Nasuverse doesn't have true omnipotents either.

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debunkdude

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#68 debunkdude  Online

Nasuverse doesn't have true omnipotents either.

Why do you think so

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SergeantMuscle

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#69  Edited By SergeantMuscle

@johnsmjs36: it is true omnipotent at least as true as omnipotence can be in fiction.

If you Define omnipotence as being greater than the sum of all existence. Which is the mainstream definition.

Then it's still limited to all of existence within a particular series.

Just because of character do the declared omnipotent in a fodder verse like Natsu

verse does not automatically make them omnipotent in a series in a series that is complex as the suggsverse. Since they possesses Realms Concepts and ideas not found it or nastuverse.

Inshort being more powerful than the total sum of existence in one series doesn't make you more powerful than the total sum of existence in another

And if you Define omnipotence by The absolutist View well then you're out of luck since that's that is impossible to achieve and is a logical Paradox in and of itself anyway so you shouldn't have any problem accepting levels Beyond it.

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SergeantMuscle

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@debunkdude: nope! true omnipotence ;the mainstream definition of omnipotent is simply to more powerful than the total sum of all existence. And having your power be unsurpassed and all of existence.

Of course even this concept can be limited to a person's existence.

Being greater than the total sum of existence in a verse as weak as the nasu doesn't mean anything when compared to being all-powerful in SV.

And if your definition of omnipotence is the absolutist view then you're out of luck. Since not only is this definition unattainable and logically impossible it's also impossible to prove.

And if you're willing to accept a logical Paradox such as absolute omnipotence then you should have no problem accepting a logical Paradox as absolute omnipotent Plus

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debunkdude

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#71 debunkdude  Online

Oh god I am not messing with you.You should stop with your wanks of omnipotence+.Absolute omnipotence is not illogical.It only seems so to us. seriously get something better to do If suggsverse characters are your favourites.

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johnsmjs36

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#72 johnsmjs36  Online

@debunkdude: In Suggsverse lore, beings like Zeno or perhaps Kaguya in Naruto are omnipotent because they are the strongest. Omnipotence is a defined limit that Suggsverse characters break through like Shonen MCs. In other words, Omnipotence is.just the strongest of a particular level/floor. Not the absolute or be all and end all

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debunkdude

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#73 debunkdude  Online

@johnsmjs36: Thats what I have been saying too that the definition is different but this guys insists that true omnipotence is impossible

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SergeantMuscle

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#74  Edited By SergeantMuscle

@debunkdude: and being Beyond it is not impossible it just appears that way to us.

If you're going to go ahead and accept the definition of omnipotence that have been rejected by modern philosophers and violates basic logic, fine.

But then turning around and claiming supprassing it id impossible because it violates being a logic is laughable.

After all going by absolutist view of omnipotence if a omnipotent being could do anything then surely he can surpass omnipotence.

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SergeantMuscle

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@johnsmjs36: Nope. Neither of these characters would be seen as omnipotent by SV lore at all.

Characters like, Kami tenchi would be seen as omnipotent. He would be father since he is omnipotent over a verse that is only a infinite 12 dimensional Multiverse. And SV has infinite number of Dimensions that size.

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johnsmjs36

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#76 johnsmjs36  Online

@debunkdude: In a way it is. We are limited by our perception of Omnipotence. The Source, Creator, Akasha, etc they are boundless. There is no beginning or ending for them. They are the only Absolutes and the only endless. Writers never focus on them as an individual or an entity. They just are there. Everything exists because of them. We as a reader can't view their motives and the writers can't comprehend them. They are omnipotent. A guy in a suit has a motive, his thoughts, he is a single entity. Following the whims of a writer. His omnipotence may be established but it is still bounded, understandable.

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johnsmjs36

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#77 johnsmjs36  Online

@sergeantmuscle: I think atleast 27 were said. And the chousin were said to be hyperdimensional. Unbounded by any hierarchy or size of dimensions.

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SergeantMuscle

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#78  Edited By SergeantMuscle
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@johnsmjs36: I might be wrong here but going by what was stated in this video. an Infinite Multiverse consisting of 12 dimensions. It seems like verse follows classic Multiverse Theory and going by classic Multiverse Theory this is as large as a Multiverse can be. Kami tenchi mere presence being able to shake the verse to it foundation.

Yes to chousin are beyond all these Dimensions making them outerversal.

And Kami tenchi is omnipotent over this entire existence.

However in the SV the entire Tenchi verse is only the size of a single metaverse and there's an infinite number of those underneath an infinite number of higher dimensions.

It's to the point where even casual non omnipotent beings such as transcended humans can easily be put at the level of chousin in the tenchinverse. And K. Tenchi status of omnipotence it's going to question when put into a verse we're all of existence is much greater and even transcended humans could perform a lot of the Feats he's done.

@debunkdude: dude if you believe in absolutist omnipotent and that omnipotent being can do anything they want that even if it violates logic then why can't an omnipotent being make themselves stronger than they are? Why can they not Place himself at like omnipotent Plus. Implying that there is something an omnipotent being cannot do means that they're not omnipotent according to the absolutist view.

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One_of_Two

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#79  Edited By One_of_Two

@sergeantmuscle said:

@debunkdude: nope! true omnipotence ;the mainstream definition of omnipotent is simply to more powerful than the total sum of all existence. And having your power be unsurpassed and all of existence.

I have never seen this definition of omnipotence. Can you link me from where you got it?

Anyway, I have serious problems with this definition. For one, being more powerful than the sum of all existence leads to a paradox, since the being itself will be included into said total sum of all existence. Its asking for the being to be more powerful than itself. Second, this definition is contingent on the total sum of existence and can lead to some hilariously weak omnipotents. For example if the totality of existence in a verse is a single hairdryer, then a being more powerful than a hairdryer would be omnipotent in that verse.

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SergeantMuscle

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Loading Video...

@one_of_two: sure. There are some vids about it.

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"Anyway, I have serious problems with this definition. For one, being more powerful than the sum of all existence leads to a paradox, since the being itself will be included into said total sum of all existence."

That's more of a linguistic paradox. Omnipotence defined by the mainstream philosophers nowadays simply means all-powerful. So everything else combined in existence can not match the being and strength. Interesting me enough there is no real Paradox since this definition never stays that an omnipotent being can do all things their power is still limited to what is logically possible since logical and possibilities cannot exist in real life.

The moment you start accepting absolutist omnipotence on the other hand is the moment you choose to accept the idea that logical impossibilities can exist. And once you start doing that you really can't dismiss Concepts like Beyond omnipotence due to them being logically impossible.

"Second, this definition is contingent on the total sum of existence and can lead to some hilariously weak omnipotents. For example if the totality of existence in a verse is a single hairdryer, then a being more powerful than a hairdryer would be omnipotent in that verse."

I mean the being power would probably still have to be greater than the total sum of planets and stars and black holes. But if one hair dryer is literally the only thing that exist in this universe than I guess so...

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debunkdude

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#81 debunkdude  Online

@one_of_two: That is called "headcanon".Also why do you consider akasha non omnipotent?

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debunkdude

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#82 debunkdude  Online

@SergeantMuscle: umm no one considers kami tenchi omnipotent here.He is hella weak.So comparing him to your characters is useless.

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debunkdude

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#83 debunkdude  Online

The notion of omnipotence leads to some logical paradoxes that we at the moment have no answer to.But the term beyon omnipotence is so stupid it can be easily debunked by our primitive logical understandings as a human race.But apparently sergeant muscle is no human so.........

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SergeantMuscle

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@debunkdude: if you believe an omnipotent being could do anything the he should be able to make himself Beyond omnipotent if he wanted to.

Modern philosophers actually do have an answer to this and the answer to this is that absolutist omnipotent is b*******.

Logical impossibility cannot exist. Absolutist omnipotent is proven to be logically impossible therefore it cannot exist.

And if you're willing to accept one logical impossibility you should have no problem accepting another.

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SergeantMuscle

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#85  Edited By SergeantMuscle

@debunkdude: I also like how you're arguing that a character like kami tenchi who has almost destroyed a infinite 12 dimensional Multiverse by his mere presence alone and was stated by the other characters to be absolutely omnipotent in every way, shape and form, and was also stated to be beyond the concept of any Dimension or hierarchy isn't omnipotent.

And yet Brunestud a character that many respect threads has only place around Galaxy level can only be beaten by literal omnipotence according to you.

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One_of_Two

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#86  Edited By One_of_Two

@sergeantmuscle: Ok, I saw the videos, this definition of omnipotence is fine in my books. But it changes Omnipotence from a state of being (being able to do anything) to a state of being in relation to its surroundings (not being hindered in doing logical things).

I'm fine with this, although it does make the term somewhat meaningless when it comes to fiction and versus debates.

On topic - I do believe Suggsverse still uses the absolutist version of omnipotence, but it gets away with it because the verse allows for paradoxes and logical impossibilities to exist within it.

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SergeantMuscle

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@one_of_two: "On topic - I do believe Suggsverse still uses the absolutist version of omnipotence, but it gets away with it because the verse allows for paradoxes and logical impossibilities to exist within it."

This is perfectly acceptable. As long as your logic is consistent which it does appear to be. You seem to accept all logical inpossibilities as equally plausible ideas when it comes to fiction. As opposed to just cherry picking which ones you want to acknowledge like debunkdude.

And while the mainstream version doesn't have any paradoxes within it. It does limit omnipotent to what is physically possible and basically makes it relative to each series verse. By this reasoning being all-powerful and one of verse doesn't mean you're all-powerful in another verse with a much larger cosmology.

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One_of_Two

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#88  Edited By One_of_Two

@sergeantmuscle: Yep, thats exactly my position.

And yes, with mainstream omnipotence a being can be omnipotent (in their verse) and weaker than an ordinary person in another. It is dependent on the cosmology of the verses.

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SergeantMuscle

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@one_of_two: yeah I suppose the absolutist view of omnipotent. Is stronger and I do accept it in fiction logical impossibilities can exist. So I don't have a problem with that. my problem only arise when some people who accepts one logical impossibility then for an arbitrary reasons reject another..

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debunkdude

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#90 debunkdude  Online

This is perfectly acceptable. As long as your logic is consistent which it does appear to be. You seem to accept all logical inpossibilities as equally plausible ideas when it comes to fiction. As opposed to just cherry picking which ones you want to acknowledge like debunkdude.

I perfectly agree with what you said here and I do no cherry picking.

if you believe an omnipotent being could do anything the he should be able to make himself Beyond omnipotent if he wanted to.

Maybe he can.Maybe he can't.Maybe he won't.Who knows coz our logic is still quite primitive.These are the logical errors that authors need to get away with in order to stay consistent with their omnipotents.And ya kami tenchi is no omnipotent.By your defence of kami tenchi I can say your definition of omnipotence is a bit too weak.Arcueid fodderizes kami(As far as I know).

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debunkdude

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#91 debunkdude  Online

@johnsmjs36: As far as I know this guy uses thr incredibly broken and undefined "fiction" in "fiction" tiering to allow layers above omnipotence.what people don't understand is that there is basically no difference between two such layers and infinite such layers.An author from the layer above can make his verse infinite such layers by just adding a line or two to his works lol.That is why this tiering is broken af.

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SergeantMuscle

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#92  Edited By SergeantMuscle

@debunkdude: galaxy level character can totally one shotted a character that stated to be absolutely omnipotent in every way shape or form?

Ignore the obvious fact Kami Tenchi almost straight up obliterated infinite Multiverse with 12 Dimensions just by existing. And was stated to be above all Dimension and hierarchy which would put casually at outerversal level at least What Feats does she have again?

I'm joking here because to argue that a character can only be beaten by omnipotence is the most ridiculous wink I've ever seen. Especially since in Natsu vs cosmology isn't much bigger than Tenchi verse actually it's not bigger at all .and the nasuverse would be an absolutely miniscule spec compared to the SV. And just because of character is omnipotent ovet such a tiny insignificant spec of dust like the Nasuverse doesn't mean they would be omnipotent over a verse as massive as the SV.

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debunkdude

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#93 debunkdude  Online

@SergeantMuscle: Oh now I see by omnipotent you mean the absolute strongest of the verse and not the actual meaning of the word.In that sense you should consider zeno omnipotent too?

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SergeantMuscle

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#94  Edited By SergeantMuscle

@debunkdude: no by omnipotent I mean omnipotent. A character with literally need to be stated to be omnipotent to even qualify for this. Kami Tenchi is directly stated to be absolutely omnipotent in every way shape or form.

Again if we're going by absolute is omnipotent then she still gets one shotted after all a truely omnipotent being can easily surpassed himself and make themselves Beyond omnipotent. omnipotent + should totally be possible if we're going by this definition. And an omnipotent being who is supposedly more omnipotent can make themselves beyond that. Like massively beyond omnipotent.

I haven't seen convincing enough proof to argue that these not too characters are even Beyond Multiverse or even galaxt level and your argument only omnipotent is enough to beat them.

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debunkdude

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#95 debunkdude  Online

@SergeantMuscle: God you contradict yourself.You use of the term omnipotent is very very wrong.Omnipotence is not some hax that a character can get nor is it some power level that character achieve by transcending their cosmology.It is a totally boundless,perfect and absolute state of being,not something that you can order on amazon.KAMI TENCHI Is not omnipotent.

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SergeantMuscle

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@debunkdude: I never applied either those things I'm just using two of the official definitions of omnipotence and you're just using what you imagine omnipotence is.

Omnipotence by mainstream definition is simply being greater than all of existence. This version is what modern philosophers now defined omnipotence as.

Absolutist omnipotence which is what you're pushing is a version of omnipotence that is literally a logical impossibility in which an all-powerful being can do absolutely everything in his perfect in every way.

And if you're willing to accept logical and possibilities as a reality and that an omnipotent being can do literally anything then you should have no problem with a omnipotent being making himself Beyond omnipotent.

Kami Tenchi is easily more omnipotent anyone nasuverse. Again what's directly stated by beings that are above the 12th dimension of an infinite Multiverse to be absolutely omnipotent in every way. Can you even provide me a multiversal feat for this woman?

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debunkdude

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#97 debunkdude  Online

@SergeantMuscle: kami tenchi is just someone who is superior to the choushin.Nothing else.

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etriel

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#98  Edited By etriel

@sergeantmuscle:

That's because you, like several of these Omnipotence-denier debaters, are clinging to those forced narrative that everyone uses the Paradoxical Definition of Omnipotence.

As a means to "Gotcha!" us, whilst cuckling atop a High Horse you set up for yourself.

Our definition of Omnipotence (at least among myself) is the Absolute Power to do and be anything that is intrinsically possible. Anything minus the paradoxes. As CS Lewis described.

You precipitated the framework of your activism on the "Aha! Hypocrite" or "Ha! Gotcha!" moment, but this battle plan failed due to the fact that we do not acknowledge Paradoxical Omnipotence. So you are wasting your time.

So you didn't "Gotcha" anything.

You probably are just using this as a troll means to spread some form of Outerversalism or something else. I don't think you seriously believe in what you say.

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SergeantMuscle

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@etriel: "Our definition of Omnipotence (at least among my allies) is the Absolute Power to do and be anything that is intrinsically possible. Anything minus the paradoxes."

by doing this you're limiting omnipotence to whats instrnsically possible. So Characters that can do instrnsically immpossible things should roflstomp them.

It's hilarious that you're trying to create a paradox-less Limitless omnipotence by applying limits to it.

Your omnipotent character cannot surpass his limits nor can he do things inherently impossible whereas omnipotent characters from the SV totally can.

So already one of these two characters are more omnipotent than the other.

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SergeantMuscle

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@debunkdude: yeah except for the fact that it was directly stated that he was absolutely omnipotence in all regards and I'm still waiting for proof that this b**** can beat Helm since many people aren't even convinced she is beyond Galaxy level. I'm still waiting for feats