Archer vs Saber of Black

Archer (Composite F/sn Routes)

VS

Saber of Black (Pre & Post Heart Transfer)

In character

Winner by KO, Incapacitation or Death

Random encounter

Standard gear and abilities

Fight takes place at an unpopulated city setting at night

Who'd win? For what reasons?

Callouts:

Penny for your thoughts on this battle?

Mismatch. Archer is squarely mid tier as far as servants go. Siegfried is in another league. Archer literally can't hurt him unless it occurs to him to use dragon slaying swords, and he would probably get Balmung'd before that happens.

Siegfried lasting any amount of time against a serious Karna puts him out of Archer's league. Plus he doesn't really have a counter to Balmung other than eating it and then dying.

In terms of who’s better written, Archer. But yeah Siegfried wins

@kbm: Hey, Sumanai is awesome. He just has the misfortune of being used to prop up a cardboard cutout.

@flashingsabre: yeah, that cardboard cutout is the reason why Apocrypha sucks

Favorite character getting slaughtered by a wasted one. Sieg doing everyone dirty.

If Archer is 4km away and has initiative, he can one-shot Siegfried with a surprise attack using a full-power Hrunting to hit his head or the weak spot on his back.

@dd-harris: No he can’t.

Siegfried stomps

I think people are overestimating Archer a bit. He's a modern servant, he's not a counter guardian in the usual servant state. He would lose to a lot of servants even in F/SN, Medusa removes her blindfold and slowly turning him to stone, Saber repeatedly beaten him, and his UBW would be destroyed if she pulls out Excalibur, and he can't replicate a weapon strong enough to oppose a strong Noble Phatasm like from Saber or Rider, Lancer almost killed him with the Gae Bolg throw, he could have finished the job with another one but he realizes Archer's intention. TBH, the only people Archer beats were people who don't have a lot of combat skills like Caster. Siegfried would win cleanly if he simply busts out his NP. He can't oppose a strong NP like that.

At extreme range, Archer might be able to snipe Sieg's weak-point before he gets eviscerated, but by and large Siegfried stomps.

@devoidruby: Yes, he can. Archer can win by ambushing Siegfried at long range.

Siegfried doesn't have any precognitive abilities. So, he's not going to see an ambush coming. Archer can blow his head off with a BP.

Archer can identify the name of Siegfried's sword just by looking at it. When the name of a NP is revealed, the hero's identity and weaknesses are also revealed. So, Archer can just go for the weak spot on his back.

@poeticwarrior: Rho Aias delayed Jeanne D'Arc Alter's La Grondement Du Haine allowing EMIYA Alter to escape.

Archer can just do same thing with Balmung.

@dd-harris: Balmung is the most spammable beam sword. Sieg can just fire again, and Archer can't do anything to counter it.

@flashingsabre: I already said he can delay it with Rho Aias and escape.

@dd-harris: Sure. Once. What about the second, third, and fourth shots? Archer can barely use Rho Aias once the petals start shattering.

@flashingsabre: Archer will have already escaped before the second one. You can't hit something if it's not there. After Archer retreats, he can re-engage at long range.

Which part did he pull it off? I don't remember. I just remember the fight during Shinjuku where Jalter was already heavily damaged and she used her NP and he ran away. I don't think you can say he can just use the same strat and hope it would work, especially when the normal version has never used it or escaped undamaged. Emiya used it against Lancer, and he was heavily damage and almost died from the blowback of his NP, Shirou used it against Saber Alter's Excalibur and it would have broken and killed him and Rider if Rider didn't use her NP to push it back. Emiya admitted that he couldn't produce something to oppose Saber even when he has UBW on during Rin's route. Can you show me the link? I don't remember which part you're referring to. Let's say that Archer could snipe him. What could he do with his sniping? All of Archer's attacks around A rank would only register as E rank for Sumanai, even if it hits, it would only register as minor scratches due to Armor of Fafnir, and no, there's no way in hell he could snipe Sumanai's back from that far away. You're using a hypothetical situation that the original didn't use and have many instances in the main game where it didn't work, and the OP specifically said F/SN composite, so it's not even extended to stuffs in FGO, on top of Shinjuku which didn't write by Nasu, the original author.

BTW, is it this one? I don't remember him using his Raw Ass NP during that confrontation with Jalter nor is there any sound effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3tgbJF8rcY&t=315s

@poeticwarrior: Gáe Bolg is a homing missile and Archer had to use almost all his mana to completely stop it with Rho Aias because dodging it not possible. Balmung is different and Archer doesn't need to stop it. Since a four layered Rho Aias helped Bellerophon beat Excalibur, a complete Rho Aias is surely capable of slowing down Balmung long enough for Archer to retreat.

Archer can hit Siegfried with an A-rank NP and the damage will be reduced to an E-rank NP. E-rank NPs are equal to C-rank attacks which can kill if they hit a vital spot such as the head. Archer can also hit his weak spot with a surprise attack because Siegfried doesn't have Instinct, Eye of the Mind (False) or Protection from Arrows.

You can't just put up Rho Aias and run away, you have to keep on maintaining it. When has Archer put up Rho Aias and run away? It hasn't happened yet. In all instances, you have to keep it on, and in all instances, NO ONE has ever gotten out of it without scraps. Shirou was struggled to maintain it, Archer struggles to maintain it and got hurt from Lancer's NP. If he uses Rho Aias, the result would still be like with Excalibur and Gae Bolg, you will either have to maintain it and get the blowback or you die the moment it's down. Please show me where he could put up the shield and run away. If it's about Emiya Alter vs Jalter, I show you the link that he didn't do it. The Nasu source said that E rank NP would only give him scraps, I don't think scraps can kill you, and at B and below, he neutralizes it. Archer's trace on NP will be one rank degraded btw. I can't work with a false premise when I don't ever remember him putting up Rho Aias and run away instead of needing to maintain it in order to protect himself with blowback damage. If he could do that, why couldn't he do that in F/SN series? And nothing prevent the servants from chasing after him. You have to prove that 1. He could put up Rho Aias and run away instead of maintaining it. 2. He could prevent the servants who can sense mana from chasing after him. 3. He could somehow lose Sumanai and from a spot that could snipe a fast moving servant. 4. It could kill Sumanai who only receives scraps from A rank NP.

In canon and author's statement, Archer has never shown to defeat combat servants head-on. He lost against Saber several times, lost against Lancer, Rider froze him due to his lack of magic resistance, at the gate, Assassin would beat him as well according to Nasu. There's no way he could defeat a powerhouse like Sumanai.

@poeticwarrior: 1. He can project it from a distance and maintain it. Of course, it'll disappear after he retreats but he'll be able to avoid Balmung. It is said in the video you sent me that he used his shield at the last moment to avoid her NP and escape. Nothing is stopping this Archer from doing the same.

2. Gilgamesh tried to kill him and he escaped undetected.

3. Due to Archer's Clairvoyance, he can execute his "ultra long-range sniping" precisely even against targets moving at high speeds as long as they are within a four kilometer range.

4. You misunderstand how the armor works. A-rank regular attacks cause damage equal to E-rank regular attacks which cause minor scratches. A-rank NPs cause damage equal to E-rank NPs which are much more powerful than E-rank regular attacks and equal to C-rank attacks or slightly higher.

Archer's best chance is to one-shot Siegfried with an A-rank NP hitting a vital spot or his weak spot in a surprise attack scenario from 4km away.

@dd-harris: Where did he say that he used his shield at the last moment? There's no text or sound effect or graphic referring to it in that video. You can't say about stuffs that happening off screen since we don't know what happens or the circumstances. He could project it at a distance and maintance it? Where did he ever do that? Where did he ever use Rho Aias and move at the same time while defending a NP?

Where does it say that E rank NP will be C rank in attack? And that would assume he could get away from another servant who can sense each other's man and presence. That's why assassin even need presence concealment to hide themselves and their mana.

Best chance is to one shot with A-rank NP which would be hard to even get away from Sumanai undetected. I have already listed a bunch of points where it would be very hard to do. I don't think a servant who lose against almost everyone in FSN in the story and by author's statement could beat Sumanai.

@poeticwarrior: Yes, he can. If the fight starts with Archer being 4 kilometers away and Siegfried is unaware of his location, Archer can win by ambushing Siegfried at long range.

Siegfried doesn't have any precognitive abilities. So, he's not going to see an ambush coming. Archer can shoot his head with an A-rank NP.

Archer can identify the name of Siegfried's sword just by looking at it. When the name of a NP is revealed, the hero's identity and weaknesses are also revealed. So, Archer can just go for the weak spot on his back.

Watch the video again. Jeanne says he used his shield.

It's already stated that a C-rank NP is equal to A ir A+ attack. So, I assumed that an E-rank NP is equal to C or C+.

@dd-harris: So it's your assumption? Jeanne said he used his shield, but nothing about it is about put it up and run. You do know that jalter is almost dead at that point, right? She couldn't have given chased. Nothing supports that he could run after putting up a shield but in Jalter's case, she's too weak to do anything. NONE of the FSN show that EMIYA could put up a shield and run but he tanks for the entire attack.

I don't see how you keep saying ambush work when it has never worked and Archer has never used it successfully. You can't make up a scenario where it would be possible, especially when the NP may only scraps him. Where does it say that C rank is A+ or that E is C+ anyway? I need you to start providing source if we're gonna have any discussion, otherwise, I'd stop here since ALL of your arguments have been based on assumptions.

There’s no starting distance given so there’s no reason to assume Archer gets a massive range advantage.

Siegfried Is perfectly capable of survive a BP through Armour of Fafnir and blocking the attack. Plus, I don’t think a BP is Archer’s go to move in any confrontation.

And Siegfried is perfectly capable of protecting his weakness. Archer has no answer to being Balmung’d outside of attempting to tank it via Rho Aias which it hasn’t got the feats for since the closest it has is helping Medusa overpower Saber Alter.

EMIYA gets wrecked tbh. Emiya would be close to fodder tier in the apocryphal grail war. They had almost all top tier servants in that war. And idk why people shit on apocrypha just because they do t like Sieg smh.

@devoidruby: There's no starting distance given. So, I made a scenario where Emiya wins. If Archer has range and the element of surprise, he can one-shot Siegfried with a fully powered Hrunting. The armor of fafnir reduces A-rank NPs to E-rank. That's an 80% reduction in damage sustained. At full power, Hrunting destroyed the four petal version of Rho Aias, which was capable of helping Bellerophon overpower Excalibur Morgan. 20% of that power is more than enough to pierce through a heroic spirit's skull. Since Hrunting travels at Mach 10 and Siegfried doesn't have PFA, Instinct or EOTM, Siegfried won't be able to react to a surprise attack and Hrunting will pierce his head.

@ecoblitz: There's no starting distance given. So, I made a scenario where Emiya wins. If Archer has range and the element of surprise, he can one-shot Siegfried with a fully powered Hrunting. The armor of fafnir reduces A-rank NPs to E-rank. That's an 80% reduction in damage sustained. At full power, Hrunting destroyed the four petal version of Rho Aias, which was capable of helping Bellerophon overpower Excalibur Morgan. 20% of that power is more than enough to pierce through a heroic spirit's skull. Since Hrunting travels at Mach 10 and Siegfried doesn't have PFA, Instinct or EOTM, Siegfried won't be able to react to a surprise attack and Hrunting will pierce his head.

@poeticwarrior: If Archer has range and the element of surprise, he can one-shot Siegfried with a fully powered Hrunting. The armor of Fafnir reduces A-rank NPs to E-rank NPs. That's an 80% reduction in damage sustained. At full power, Hrunting destroyed the four petal version of Rho Aias, which was capable of helping Bellerophon overpower Excalibur Morgan. 20% of that power is more than enough to pierce through a heroic spirit's skull. Since Hrunting travels at Mach 10 and Siegfried doesn't have PFA, Instinct or EOTM, Siegfried won't be able to react to a surprise attack and Hrunting will pierce his head. You wanted facts. Here you go.

@dd-harris: Ig starting distance isn’t given default starting distance is assumed and that’s like 10/20 feet. Nevermind emiya has had an advantage like this against Herakles but didn’t go for a headshot

@ecoblitz: Archer did go for a headshot with a normal and ineffective arrow but that's irrelevant in the scenario I made. Siegfried will die in the above-mentioned scenario.

@dd-harris: your above mentioned scenario is invalid... I already explained why

@ecoblitz: What do you mean by "Invalid"? I really didn't get your explanation. Is it because I set the distance or because you don't think Archer can win that way?

Siegfried trashes EMIYA

@dd-harris: because of the set distance and than if emiya didn’t do that despite the same exact scenario you set for him happening

Archer is indeed getting Balmunged.

@ecoblitz: just because he didn't do it doesn't mean he can't. He can do it and if he does, he wins.

Not the specific distance. So what should we assume? Do we use senary dollars? Or just one ?. So let's make the following one senario for each. In a 4km away archer concertesa would kill Siegfried. The latter has no instinct or clairvoyance or protection of fleeces. If it is 20 feet away the advantage is the dragon slayer. But a point. Can someone please compare the statistics between knowing Siegfried and cu the bid ?. Because if he is less than these it hurts archer he has a low chance but he does. Attention is not a chance to defeat you Melee but to survive and distance yourself. If Siegfried is less than those two archers, there is a chance that sieg is 4km from him. Somebody do this for me please?

@chaos239: Not if Archer ambushes him at long range and one-shots him.

@dd-harris: Like he’s done to literally no Servant?

It says a lot when the only Servants Archer has ever legitimately beaten are Hassan of the Cursed Arm and Medea while Siegfried was going blow to blow with Karna.

Come on.