Arcann and Vaylin vs Hero of Tython, Barsen'thor, Emperor's Wrath and Darth Nox

The Dark Siblings

The Big Four

Rules:

• In character
• KotFE versions of the sibilings, SoR versions of the four
• Standard equipment
• Basic knowledge about each other
• No prep time
• All out
• Victory by death

Callouts:

Sorry if you're not interested.

Team 1 slaughter, Vaylin might solo.

KOTFE Vaylin? She can probably take on one of the protagonists and maybe hold off two. Arcann can ragdoll any of them, though he might be pressed by multiple.

I would probably back the siblings, though I could see a case for either side.

Chained Vaylin can casually incinerate Arcann who can destroy one protag.

Arcann takes on 2 simaltaneously while Vaylin casually incinerates the other two. Then they kill the final 2 protags with ease.

Team 1 slaughters.

Any two are enough to drop Arcann. But Vaylin can probably take out two.

Leaning siblings in a close one due to Vaylin.

Team 1.

Smuggler solos.

A case could be made either way, but Vaylin probably swings it in the twins' favor.

@arkhamasylum3: Chained Vaylin and Arcann had a fairly extended duel on Zakuul, before Vaylin took advantage of Arcann noticing the Outlander's arrival to escape. However, KOTFE Vaylin is before that duel in KOTET, IIRC, and she's lost to Senya, though that was before the end of KOTFE.

Team 1 decimate with ease. I can even think to either Vaylin or Arcann soloing

@amethystgravity:

Chained Vaylin and Arcann had a fairly extended duel on Zakuul, before Vaylin took advantage of Arcann noticing the Outlander's arrival to escape. However, KOTFE Vaylin is before that duel in KOTET, IIRC, and she's lost to Senya, though that was before the end of KOTFE.

Pure sabers feats.

Also apologies it was Semi-Unchained Vaylin who could casually disintegrate The Outlander. Don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that.

Regardless Chained Vaylin is still capable of stomping The Outlander as of early KOTET who was above Arcann.

@arkhamasylum3:

Regardless Chained Vaylin is still capable of stomping The Outlander as of early KOTET who was above Arcann.

I agree with this, but the OP says KOTFE Vaylin and Arcann, and seeing as how the nearly dead Arcann was able to save Senya from Vaylin via force push at the end of KOTFE (not a showing of superiority, but still impressive, given Senya seemed to think Arcann was actually dead until he did that). I don't see how KOTFE Vaylin > KOTFE Arcann when both are healthy.

@amethystgravity:

I agree with this, but the OP says KOTFE Vaylin and Arcann, and seeing as how the nearly dead Arcann was able to save Senya from Vaylin via force push at the end of KOTFE (not a showing of superiority, but still impressive, given Senya seemed to think Arcann was actually dead until he did that). I don't see how KOTFE Vaylin > KOTFE Arcann when both are healthy.

There is pretty much no indication KOTFE Chained Vaylin is weaker than KOTET Chained Vaylin as far as I'm aware.

Regardless I could site numerous examples of Force Pushes in the mythos were far weaker opponents have managed to push stronger ones. It doesn't prove anything especially seeing as iirc Vaylin was caught off guard by the attack.

@arkhamasylum3:

There is pretty much no indication KOTFE Chained Vaylin is weaker than KOTET Chained Vaylin as far as I'm aware.

A fair amount of time seemed to pass between the two (Senya seems to have aged a bit, visually), and seeing as how Vaylin's grown from getting disarmed by Senya to matching Arcann in sabers to being superior to the Outlander, I don't think reverse-scaling works with KOTFE Vaylin, since she's been shown to have tremendous growth, even before undoing her conditioning.

Regardless I could site numerous examples of Force Pushes in the mythos were far weaker opponents have managed to push stronger ones. It doesn't prove anything especially seeing as iirc Vaylin was caught off guard by the attack.

Fair enough on the element of surprise, but while it's true weaker force users can push stronger ones, I would think that Arcann near death <<< Arcann who's uninjured, so I doubt KOTFE Vaylin is that much above a healthy Arcann based on that gap.

@amethystgravity:

A fair amount of time seemed to pass between the two (Senya seems to have aged a bit, visually), and seeing as how Vaylin's grown from getting disarmed by Senya to matching Arcann in sabers to being superior to the Outlander, I don't think reverse-scaling works with KOTFE Vaylin, since she's been shown to have tremendous growth, even before undoing her conditioning.

Vaylin improving as a Lightsaber combatant doesn't mean she grew in Force Power.

Fair enough on the element of surprise, but while it's true weaker force users can push stronger ones, I would think that Arcann near death <<< Arcann who's uninjured, so I doubt KOTFE Vaylin is that much above a healthy Arcann based on that gap.

Thing is though Arcann surprising Vaylin and landing a Force Push on her which much weaker Force Users can do to opponents even when they are paying attention isn't an impressive feat and doesn't scale Arcann to Vaylin. There is no way to draw a comparison between KOTFE Arcann and KOTFE Vaylin.

Stalemate.

@arkhamasylum3:

Vaylin improving as a Lightsaber combatant doesn't mean she grew in Force Power.

Yes it does? Force augmentation is critical to any lightsaber duel, and her prolonged contention with Arcann signifies a relative parity in Force power anyway.

Force Augmentation is key to Lightsaber combat but this most certainly doesn't prove an increase in power. In her fight with Senya Valyin was capable of killing the latter with a wave of her hand but got hammered in sabers due to unrefined technique. Her honing her technque more so she can stand against Arcann isn't indicative of increased Force Power.

@arkhamasylum3:

Force Augmentation is key to Lightsaber combat but this most certainly doesn't prove an increase in power.

If X manages to match Y in a prolonged lightsaber duel, it's safe to assume that X is relatively close to Y in applicable Force power. Hence why Kao Cen Darach gets destroyed by Malgus despite possessing much greater skill and experience.

Following such, if Vaylin manages to contend with Senya in a duel for a large amount of time, we can assume that the two share some degree of parity in the Force. Similarly, if Vaylin matches blades with a much more powerful combatant than Senya in the form of Arcann, we can assume that she experienced enough of a power growth between the two instances to be able to hold her own.

In her fight with Senya Valyin was capable of killing the latter with a wave of her hand

Can you elucidate on this? I don't remember seeing anything from Vaylin that signifies such.

@slayne:

If X manages to match Y in a prolonged lightsaber duel, it's safe to assume that X is relatively close to Y in applicable Force power. Hence why Kao Cen Darach gets destroyed by Malgus despite possessing much greater skill and experience.

Yeah this is a point I never argued against but I'm not sure Lightsaber combat can be used as an indication of strength in the Force due to Valyin's incompetence.

Following such, if Vaylin manages to contend with Senya in a duel for a large amount of time, we can assume that the two share some degree of parity in the Force.

Which is comletely contradicted by the actual text.

With the rising flames, Senya finally witnessed the true carnage Vaylin had unleashed on the camp: dozens of Knights – bodies mutilated and mangled – had been tossed haphazardly amongst the scattered wreckage of ships and shuttles torn asunder. The full breadth of the slaughter sent a chill down her back; grim evidence of the horrors her daughter was capable of.

Senya raised her weapon, only to have it wrenched effortlessly from her hands by the Force. The pike sailed ten meters through the air and into Vaylin’s waiting grasp.

She could crush my skull in an instant, Senya realized. And I’d be powerless to stop her!

But when Vaylin raised the stolen lightsaber pike and charged, she knew that wouldn’t happen – her daughter wanted the visceral pleasure of slicing her down in combat.

Credit: A Mother's Hope

Essentially using Lightsaber combat to determine Vaylin's strength in the Force is completely useless.

Similarly, if Vaylin matches blades with a much more powerful combatant than Senya in the form of Arcann, we can assume that she experienced enough of a power growth between the two instances to be able to hold her own.

Or she could have just improved her technique?

It's made obvious that before her fight with Arcann Vaylin was an incredibly unrefined combatant so any improvement in Lightsaber combat doesn't prove her command over the Force increased.

@arkhamasylum3:

Which is comletely contradicted by the actual text.

Thought you were referencing their skirmish in KotFE... where she was actually disarmed by Senya, as Amethyst said in his post.

Essentially using Lightsaber combat to determine Vaylin's strength in the Force is completely useless.

Not really. Senya - with all her skill and experience - was on the defensive for virtually the entire fight, and not by any choice of her own. Contrast this with their earlier battle in KotFE, where Vaylin was outright beaten, and it's rather evident the difference her available Force power made. Still, I agree this is an exception to the "parity" trend due to the massive skill disparity.

Or she could have just improved her technique?

It's made obvious that before her fight with Arcann Vaylin was an incredibly unrefined combatant so any improvement in Lightsaber combat doesn't prove her command over the Force increased.

Vaylin was an incredibly unrefined combatant when she lost to Senya in KotFE; Vaylin was still an incredibly unrefined combatant when she stalemated Senya in KotET. The key difference here being her applicable Force power in each scenario.

At least that we've seen so far, Vaylin's primary tactic concerning lightsaber combat is to substitute augmentation for actual technique, and there's no indication of this changing by the time of her fight with Arcann.

Good grief...

Vaylin and Arcann stomp. Even Vaylin's chained iteration is > Arcann so think of a more casual ragdoll of each of them. Even in sabers, Arcann can dominate any of the four (especially the Barsen'Thor and Nox) while Vaylin exploits her huge Force advantage against the HoT and the Emperor's Wrath. Unless they clear the gap (highly unlikely when Arcann and Vaylin have been shown to casually blast their more powerful iterations off of their feet with a gesture and toss them like ragdolls), they lose hard.