Aquaman vs Namor: who is stronger?

Avatar image for guardiandevil83
#101 Edited by Guardiandevil83 (9384 posts) - - Show Bio

@tunbot: Heh. It's cool. We all have things that set us off.

Avatar image for amu0003
#103 Edited by Amu0003 (161 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman can match superman's strength

Avatar image for samconery
#104 Posted by samconery (1717 posts) - - Show Bio

All of a sudden aquaman can match supes in strength which i will never buy. They never created aquaman like that and now he can do that all of a sudden BS.
Namor for the win

Avatar image for itachi_is_gawd
#105 Posted by ITACHI_IS_GAWD (536 posts) - - Show Bio

AM

Avatar image for llehdevil
#106 Edited by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say Namor has better combat durability and roughly even combat strength when fighting h2h. I'd say Arthur is more impressive in the New-52 though.

Avatar image for heirtothekingdom
#107 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9226 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-52 Aquaman is inferior to Namor in terms of physicals, however the New 52 version is superior to Namor in physicals.

Avatar image for jumpstart55
#108 Posted by jumpstart55 (11025 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Literally throughout most of comic book history Namor seemingly had Aquaman trumped in stregth not by too much,but the difference in stregth was obvious and noticeable.
  • But all of sudden in the New 52 Aquaman got a dramatic increase in stregth..
  • So currently its Aquaman.
Avatar image for comicfan11
#109 Posted by comicfan11 (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-52 Aquaman is inferior to Namor in terms of physicals, however the New 52 version is superior to Namor in physicals.

Not completely true.

Firstly Aquaman was always much faster than Namor from the time he was created until now.

As for strength and durability Namor was better until the early 90's but from there on until Flashpoint Aquaman closed the gap and by 2005,2006 he was roughly equal.

Since PAD's Aquaman and Morisson's Justice League in the 90s and also New 52, Aquaman has become one of the most powerful heroes on DC Earth.

Avatar image for dragonbellz
#110 Posted by DragonbellZ (1038 posts) - - Show Bio

DC purposely Buffed the hell out of Aquaman for awhile to be on par with Namor.

Avatar image for echostarlord117
#111 Posted by echostarlord117 (5617 posts) - - Show Bio

Overall, Aquaman

Avatar image for amnesiak
#112 Posted by Amnesiak (3700 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman

Avatar image for heirtothekingdom
#113 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9226 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicfan11: I don't agree. Aquaman post-crisis isn't all that impressive physically in my opinion and had trouble even causing much harm to Superboy if I recall. Namor has operated on higher levels of physical strength.

Avatar image for chimeroid
#114 Posted by Chimeroid (9270 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre 52 Namor was stronger, but ever since N52 and Aquaman gradually getting better and better strength feats he has this one down.

Avatar image for MadFacedKid
#115 Posted by MadFacedKid (6596 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicfan11: I don't agree. Aquaman post-crisis isn't all that impressive physically in my opinion and had trouble even causing much harm to Superboy if I recall. Namor has operated on higher levels of physical strength.

Aquaman was holding back against Superboy something both of them suggested during the instance. His fight against Superboy is also pretty much the early years.

Mid to late Post-Crisis Aquaman's physicals started becoming more noticeably on a more consistent higher tier.

Avatar image for heirtothekingdom
#116 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9226 posts) - - Show Bio

@heirtothekingdom said:

@comicfan11: I don't agree. Aquaman post-crisis isn't all that impressive physically in my opinion and had trouble even causing much harm to Superboy if I recall. Namor has operated on higher levels of physical strength.

Aquaman was holding back against Superboy something both of them suggested during the instance. His fight against Superboy is also pretty much the early years.

Mid to late Post-Crisis Aquaman's physicals started becoming more noticeably on a more consistent higher tier.

On the level of Namor though? I haven't seen anything that suggests this.

Avatar image for MadFacedKid
#117 Posted by MadFacedKid (6596 posts) - - Show Bio

@MadFacedKid said:
@heirtothekingdom said:

@comicfan11: I don't agree. Aquaman post-crisis isn't all that impressive physically in my opinion and had trouble even causing much harm to Superboy if I recall. Namor has operated on higher levels of physical strength.

Aquaman was holding back against Superboy something both of them suggested during the instance. His fight against Superboy is also pretty much the early years.

Mid to late Post-Crisis Aquaman's physicals started becoming more noticeably on a more consistent higher tier.

On the level of Namor though? I haven't seen anything that suggests this.

Some of his feats might of his early feats typically done by one off writers and writers not even on his title might put Aquaman below Namor

But he also had feats that I'd assume were above Namor as well in the Post-Crisis continuity.

Like Comicfan11 said though, Aquaman for most of comic book history if not all of it has been faster than Namor. Pre-Crisis Aquaman in one story was thought to be Kryptonian by Superman because of the speeds he swims at underwater, in another story he kept paste with Wonder Woman was flying to Themyscira from London I believe whereas Aquaman was swimming right behind her. His speed stayed impressive in later continuities as well.

Durability? It was inconsistent as hell during the Silver Age he could take hits from heavy hitter but depending on what the story wanted could also be downed by a guy with a hammer.. Which continued onto early PC until writers decided to get a little more serious.

I don't see Namor staying conscious from a blast from Starro that knocked Orion out. Aquaman did however. Morrison's JLA run.

I don't see Namor surviving a fall at speeds faster than thought from Orbit. Aquaman did though. Morrison's JLA.

There's stuff like tanking a scream that was stated to have destroyed something pretty much city size in scope. Morrison's JLA

There was surviving Amazo's heat vision. Given that Hyperion's HV decapitated Namor. I don't see Namor surviving Amazo's HV. JL Detroit.

Aquaman's best strength feats though Pre-Flashpoint is probably lifting a City Block/Street. His durability Pre-Flashpoint was definitely higher than his strength. Given he could last a minute with a guy who one spotted Superman.

Alot of this stuff if not all of it is at this respect thread.

Respect Thread

Avatar image for heirtothekingdom
#118 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9226 posts) - - Show Bio

@MadFacedKid: Hmm, I wasn't aware of most of that. I guess I underrated Arthur.

Avatar image for MadFacedKid
#119 Posted by MadFacedKid (6596 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for heirtothekingdom
#121 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9226 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for alex_1333
#122 Posted by Alex_1333 (343 posts) - - Show Bio

Arthur murders namor.

Avatar image for heirtothekingdom
#123 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9226 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for turoksonofstone
#124 Posted by turoksonofstone (14913 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a DC site. In reality Namor wins.

Avatar image for brucerogers
#125 Posted by BruceRogers (17770 posts) - - Show Bio

Arthur

Online
Avatar image for willy_pingtom
#126 Edited by willy_pingtom (545 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for seastone98
#127 Posted by seastone98 (4875 posts) - - Show Bio

at dis point curry but namor isn't dat far behind

Avatar image for themultiversity
#128 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio

Arthur

Avatar image for torzone
#129 Posted by torzone (545 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally argue Namor is stronger but Aquaman is most brute. In a fight Aquaman would mostly win due to his history of feats, but it's a 5.5/10 chance.

Avatar image for zicarxthegreat
#130 Posted by ZicarxTheGreat (149 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Aquaman has more feats, but Submariner is ruthless. Aquaman wins this, but not without a good fight.

Avatar image for hemehero
#131 Posted by Hemehero (1302 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor is stronger and more merciless, Arthur is faster and probably smarter, not sure who is the better fighter, but probably Arthur

Avatar image for smoothsanta
#132 Posted by SmoothSanta (2809 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor has tanked Blackbolt from point blank after being stabbed in the chest with a dagger by Black Panther. He also survived a beating from Thanos, after landing the first blow.

Avatar image for kruzer
#133 Posted by Kruzer (49 posts) - - Show Bio

@hemehero said:

Namor is stronger and more merciless, Arthur is faster and probably smarter, not sure who is the better fighter, but probably Arthur

Arthur is definitely not smarter than Namor. Namor has been educated as Atlantis royalty to rule. He has a lot more life experience being that he hasn't aged much if at all since pre WW2 days. He's the CEO of his own successful corporation and he's a member of the Illuminati. He also speaks just about every language on the planet. Yes Namor has an attitude problem and is a bit of a hothead at times but AqM has nothing on him in terms of intelligence.

Also for the hell of it I'd like to offer the following bad-assery. (NOTE Namor DOESN'T win this fight but few have ever done this to Thanos).

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for blackpantherisb
#134 Posted by blackpantherisb (7574 posts) - - Show Bio

N/52/Rebirth Aquaman should be above Namor.

Avatar image for educated
#135 Posted by Educated (888 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: Not familar with New-52 Aquaman, Namor has always been more impressive in the past, I read above about recent buffs, are you factoring in the fact that Namor can fly? I've always viewed it as Namor>Aquaman on land while Aquaman<Namor in the water since Aquaman has some impressive speed feats in the water

Avatar image for theonewhoknows
#136 Posted by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman has displayed impressive strength and durability feats since at least the Silver Age, doing things like casually snapping the tendrils of Poison Ivy's giant plant monster (that was capable of crushing a building in moments) by literally just flexing his muscles while smiling, and taking a full on charge by a school of panicked Sperm Whales with no damage. But inexplicably, the next thing you know, Arthur would be depicted as being weak enough to, with no context, be severely affected by blows from the likes of Batman---underwater (!!!!) Gaaaaaag. DC always displayed his incredible speed in and out of the water as well as his telepathic abilities on sea life, but would get periodic bouts of amnesia regarding his strength and durability capabilities, resulting in the perception that, among other things, Namor was waaaaay stronger than he. Most frustrating.

I think back in the day, because of the above unfathomable nerfing of Orin/Arthur, Namor was stronger (but not sooooo much stronger that he could just walk all over Aquaman)...

...but, starting in the mid 80's to early 90's, DC finally seemed to get it through their collective thick skulls just how strong and durable an individual would have to be when they regularly, casually survive deep see water pressure that crushes metal bathyspheres and the most durable submarines, and began to focus on that aspect of the Atlantean King. And now---

---in modern times, Aquaman is finally depicted as consistently having the strength and durability level his origin and powers demand he have, doing things like lifting cities, leaping miles at a time, and throwing submarines from the bottom to the top of the ocean.

Therefore, I would say that at this stage, Aquaman is equal to The Sub-Mariner in strength.

Maybe even has a slight edge.

And, combined with his superior speed and TP abilities, is why he beats Namor in a fight.

Avatar image for kruzer
#137 Edited by Kruzer (49 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows said:

Aquaman has displayed impressive strength and durability feats since at least the Silver Age, doing things like casually snapping the tendrils of Poison Ivy's giant plant monster (that was capable of crushing a building in moments) by literally just flexing his muscles while smiling, and taking a full on charge by a school of panicked Sperm Whales with no damage. But inexplicably, the next thing you know, Arthur would be depicted as being weak enough to, with no context, be severely affected by blows from the likes of Batman---underwater (!!!!) Gaaaaaag. DC always displayed his incredible speed in and out of the water as well as his telepathic abilities on sea life, but would get periodic bouts of amnesia regarding his strength and durability capabilities, resulting in the perception that, among other things, Namor was waaaaay stronger than he. Most frustrating.

I think back in the day, because of the above unfathomable nerfing of Orin/Arthur, Namor was stronger (but not sooooo much stronger that he could just walk all over Aquaman)...

...but, starting in the mid 80's to early 90's, DC finally seemed to get it through their collective thick skulls just how strong and durable an individual would have to be when they regularly, casually survive deep see water pressure that crushes metal bathyspheres and the most durable submarines, and began to focus on that aspect of the Atlantean King. And now---

---in modern times, Aquaman is finally depicted as consistently having the strength and durability level his origin and powers demand he have, doing things like lifting cities, leaping miles at a time, and throwing submarines from the bottom to the top of the ocean.

Therefore, I would say that at this stage, Aquaman is equal to The Sub-Mariner in strength.

Maybe even has a slight edge.

And, combined with his superior speed and TP abilities, is why he beats Namor in a fight.

Namor has the same TP abilities as Arthur. I think the writers in Marvel just don't use them as much as the characters are already so similar. AM has better underwater speed and Namor has a definite land/air speed advantage. They both have magical items that do almost the same things. BUT FOR DECADES Aquaman has been pretty weak and a joke in among superhero characters for being useless out of water and only good for summoning fish. I'm glad they gave him an upgrade but I do believe it's things like Comicvine and Death Battle that have made all the writers try to 1up their counterparts. Comic characters have been getting a powercreep treatment fueled by these debates. Arthur being almost as strong as Superman is pure longterm PIS, Having him be strong and durable enough to take ocean pressure should put his strength at roughly high street level - to mid level (Somewhere between Luke Cage and Thing would be reasonable). Now if you said his high feats were due to a control of the water current around him, with some kind of contact telekinesis, then I could buy that. If he can move objects and strike opponents with the power of a tsunami, that's plausible but suddenly he's on Superman's level of physicality? Stupid. Submariner will always be superior to Aquaman. He's cooler, has a better costume(since ditching the speedo), is a better fighter, is a more complex character and most importantly is the original. Aquaman will always be a cheap imitation

BTW I don't hate Aquaman or DC at all. I love both Marvel and DC. I just hate when companies seem to up characters power levels due to online debates and things like all the hero battles. Aquaman was in my opinion the best (powers wise) when he had his water hand. It gave him enough offence to be useful in most situations and somewhat unique abilities. I hate all top heroes becoming the standard Superman clones. Especially in DC.

Avatar image for theonewhoknows
#138 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@kruzer: A lot of your post is reasonable (like Aquaman having Superman level strength should not be a thing, or that Orin has superior speed over Namor). But several things you've stated is beyond wrong.

"Namor has the same TP abilities as Arthur"---absolutely wrong. From their beginnings to modern times, Aquaman has always been depicted as having more superior and consistent TP powers to Namor. Always. This is such a "Water Is Wet, The Sky Is Blue" fact that I refuse to be drawn into any sort of discussion on the subject.

"Namor has a land advantage"---wrong. Aquaman's superior speed in the water is carried onto the land, where Orin is even faster with the water pressure off (a point he made directly while beating up some guards along with his protege Garth/Aqualad, and surprising and completely outclassing the meta humanly fast Slade Wilson in combat speed during a fight the two had on land).

"Aquaman has been pretty weak and a joke in among superhero characters for being useless out of water and only good for summoning fish" only to people who's knowledge of him was through the silly "Superfriends" cartoon, and exasperated by dumb "Family Guy" cartoon jokes. People who actually read comics have always known better, and this has been borne out by conversations held at comic shops, comic conventions, and sites like this one. And for at least the last couple of decades, more often than not Aquaman has been picked as the winner in a fight with Namor...

...which makes your claim "Having him be strong and durable enough to take ocean pressure should put his strength at roughly low end street level (Somewhere between Wolverine and Spider-Man)" another "Jump The Shark, Water is Wet" falsehood so off the rails that I will also refuse to be drawn into any sort of discussion about; that reveals a bias so unreasonable that it is clear no constructive discussion can be had on the subject.

"Submariner will always be superior to Aquaman. He's cooler, has a better costume(since ditching the speedo), is a better fighter, is a more complex character and most importantly is the original. Aquaman will always be a cheap imitation" is a personal opinion you are more than entitled to. I, and millions of others disagree, and a thousand additional pages of discussion won't convince us otherwise.

Avatar image for kruzer
#139 Posted by Kruzer (49 posts) - - Show Bio

@kruzer: A lot of your post is reasonable (like Aquaman having Superman level strength should not be a thing, or that Orin has superior speed over Namor). But several things you've stated is beyond wrong.

"Namor has the same TP abilities as Arthur"---absolutely wrong. From their beginnings to modern times, Aquaman has always been depicted as having more superior and consistent TP powers to Namor. Always. This is such a "Water Is Wet, The Sky Is Blue" fact that I refuse to be drawn into any sort of discussion on the subject.

"Namor has a land advantage"---wrong. Aquaman's superior speed in the water is carried onto the land, where Orin is even faster with the water pressure off (a point he made directly while beating up some guards along with his protege Garth/Aqualad, and surprising and completely outclassing the meta humanly fast Slade Wilson in combat speed during a fight the two had on land).

"Aquaman has been pretty weak and a joke in among superhero characters for being useless out of water and only good for summoning fish" only to people who's knowledge of him was through the silly "Superfriends" cartoon, and exasperated by dumb "Family Guy" cartoon jokes. People who actually read comics have always known better, and this has been borne out by conversations held at comic shops, comic conventions, and sites like this one. And for at least the last couple of decades, more often than not Aquaman has been picked as the winner in a fight with Namor...

...which makes your claim "Having him be strong and durable enough to take ocean pressure should put his strength at roughly low end street level (Somewhere between Wolverine and Spider-Man)" another "Jump The Shark, Water is Wet" falsehood so off the rails that I will also refuse to be drawn into any sort of discussion about; that reveals a bias so unreasonable that it is clear no constructive discussion can be had on the subject.

"Submariner will always be superior to Aquaman. He's cooler, has a better costume(since ditching the speedo), is a better fighter, is a more complex character and most importantly is the original. Aquaman will always be a cheap imitation" is a personal opinion you are more than entitled to. I, and millions of others disagree, and a thousand additional pages of discussion won't convince us otherwise.

Aquaman speed. Inconclusive here
Aquaman speed. Inconclusive here

OK you must have really been into this thread as you answered pretty fast. I actually edited my post not due to your response but after a little thinking. Based upon old comics and just thinking about ocean pressure I put my evaluation of AMs strength to high street to mid level between Luke Cage and Thing. I think that's very reasonable and in line with most of Arthur's publication over the years.

The land speed advantage heavily has to do with Namor's flight. As for on the ground with water pressure off, I'd say they are closely matched especially for combat speed. And if you're talking about this feat (see image) it's hardly conclusive of AMs land speed. Namor fights our of water a lot more and his metabolism is even designed to be on the surface more often.

I'm not only talking about Superfriends and and Family guy. AM has never been considered a major player until they reworked his image and abilities. He was a JLA founder and got respect for that but until the hook hand and later the water hand no one would ever call AM a badass. I really liked the direction that was going with the character and seems to be going back to that again. (What happened to hi overwhelming durability there) I've been reading both Marvel and DC since the 80s and my dad gave me his collection to read that goes back father. I don't remember much in offense from AM ever back in those days.

Yes me calling Arthur a cheap imitation of Namor was a bit low but as a fan of both Marvel and DC I hate when every Marvel imitation is called cheap and most people think Namor is the imitation here. My issue with the debating system in the comic community is that often writers intentions and logical explanations are just a contest of who can show the better scans (in or out of context). For example logic dictates that AM was probably able to get such hits on Supes because he inherently uses magic to boost his strikes and Superman has no explicit defense against them. This would be in line with most of the abilities DC Atlanteans show using magical water and such. It would work for his other feats too. I found a second scan of AM flooring Supes with the magical water hand. That makes perfect sense. The New 52 punch is a little vague. Most feats of AM have been matched by Namor though. Yeah AMs telepathy gets played up a whole lot more it seems the 2 companies decided to go in different directions purposefully for story telling reasons. The thing you said about fan opinions though is something I see as a problem. The character that's more popular is likely to win, especially when they are closely matched. And usually the character people think is the original is often the most liked. People have to be educated that Namor was first. He's the original and should be the iconic underwater character.

Avatar image for ecstaticgrace
#140 Posted by EcstaticGrace (7285 posts) - - Show Bio

@kruzer: Post-Crisis Aquaman lifting a city block underwater or New52 Aquaman stopping Atlan's scepter is way above anything Luke Cage or The Thing have done. It's laughable to put AC in between those 2 characters in regards to strength.

Aquaman also has always been faster than Namor. Namor has never shown hypersonic + levels of speed. Or the ability to dodge repeated lightning as well as being compared to lightning in regards to movement speed. Heck this is so blatant obvious it was made a point in the !Marvel/DC crossover.

Last Namor's tp is nowhere near Arthur's. I don't think I should even have to address that?

Avatar image for proteusxmanrxis
#141 Posted by ProteusXManRxis (4493 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman.

Avatar image for theonewhoknows
#142 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecstaticgrace: @kruzer: Kruzer, you have really got to stop using such definitive language about things you state that are often opinions of yours-not facts-when you don't have evidence to back it up.

You put Orin's strength level at "high street to mid level between Luke Cage and Thing".

Aquaman's feats show him to be low end top level at worst.

You claim that, regarding speed, the sea heroes are "closely matched especially for combat speed"

Curry has outraced torpedos https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139093/2898746-2407810_aquamanfasterthanaspeedingtorp_super.jpgand and beat a plane travelling at hypersonic speed (mach 5) to an island; and has the combat speed to out do the meta humanly fast Deathstroke and to dodge lightning attacks from Weather Wizard on land. There was nothing "inconclusive" about what Orin was telling those guards---he was merely telling them the truth, that he is incredibly fast in the water, and even faster than that when he is on land with the pressure off.

You state "AM has never been considered a major player until they reworked his image and abilities"

Actually, Curry, along with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman was the only hero to have his own series from the 50's throughout the Silver Age with no interruption, was the butt kicking, super strength displaying, sea creatures commanding co star of the "Superman/Aquaman Hour" cartoon (which became the "Superman/Batman/Aquaman Hour a couple years later when Batman and Robin joined the animated series)

and "He was a JLA founder and got respect for that but until the hook hand and later the water hand no one would ever call AM a badass"

One doesn't have to be a "bad ass' to be effective-ask mild mannered characters ranging from the Martian Manhunter, Phantom Stranger, and The Vision about that

and "I've been reading both Marvel and DC since the 80s and my dad gave me his collection to read that goes back father. I don't remember much in offense from AM ever back in those days"

The following endeavor Aquaman did in The Silver Age, so...

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

No man, just...no.

I see that you are one of those people that mistakenly believes Superman is "especially" to weak to magic. Sure--

After all, here's Superman being "easily" affected by the magic of Skyhook's transmutation http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/81805/1686017-supestransmutation.jpg ---

Oh, wait. Superman resisted it. Pretty impressive, since Skyhook was empowered by Blaze, a MAGICAL Death Goddess powerful enough to challenge Neron for control of the Nether Realms and win (for that matter, despite Blaze having complete MAGICAL control of her realm, Superman, in her VERY LAIR resisted her encasing him in a MAGICAL rock prison which he busted out of http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111271301/5239439-7340797672-jeDnC.jpg placing him in MAGICAL lava lakes which he rose out of http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/1990-08-Action-Comics-Page-B.jpg and withstanding several MAGICAL blasts from her, Superman rescued Jimmy Olson-who's soul she wanted to take- from her, and escaped).

In fact, Kal did more than "escape"---eventually, Supes used his heat vision to create an earthquake that led to a chain reaction which incinerated Blazes' MAGICAL dimension. The trauma was so epic that the likes of Dr. Fate, Raven (who stated she thought only her father Trigon could create such a mystical disturbance) and The Black Racer sensed it---with Racer noting it is the first time ever that Blaze has been defeated

http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/supermanrespect2/media/hetvieart_zps2100d05a.jpg.html

http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/supermanrespect2/media/hetvieart2_zps819fdef1.jpg.html

http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/supermanrespect2/media/hetvieart3_zps9dd09ae1.jpg.html

Okay, bad examples---but speaking of Neron who I mentioned a few moments ago, Supes didn't withstand any of HIS mystical attacks-well except for the time Kal resisted Neron's TP, and here, when Kal resists Neron's MAGICAL attempts to take him over http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/7/72524/3164178-7238346042-30567.jpg Oh, okay so mentioning Neron actually ISN'T really a good example...

Surely, THIS example of Superman being magically molecularly manipulated by Disciple counts http://imgur.com/a/JvgnY- oh, but actually, even though Disciple is empowered by several Elder Gods, and his powers alters the bodies of the JLA (including Kyle Rayner Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter) as the scan show Superman tanks this MAGICAL attack and snatches Disciple's Power Staff.

Well, okay, but the Angel Asmodel's MAGICAL Light Of Heaven attack-which, when effective drives the recipient of it instantly insane-worked http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/wonder-woman-vs-magneto-1714954/?page=5 (post 209; click the "spoilers" icon, it's the third scan)---well, no, to Asmodel's intense shock, Superman withstood it and battled on...

Well, this kill shot by Gog on Superman CERTAINLY shows he's vulnerable to magic

http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/GogStaff1.jpg.html

http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/GogStaff2.jpg.html

http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/GogStaff3.jpg.html

http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/GogStaff4.jpg.html

Kingdom Gog’s staff is very powerful, because, as it has the combined power of the Emerald Energy of the Guardians of the Universe, the cosmic energy of the Source, and the MAGICAL might of Shazam and Zeus http://i.imgur.com/qDBgsb3.jpg-- oops, to Gog's startled bafflement, Superman withstands the blast without a mark on him then rescues his various JLA and JSA colleagues.

Hmmmm.

The Kryptonian is no more PARTICULARLY vulnerable to magic than any other mortal; he just can't UTTERLY shrug its effects off ALL the time like most SCIENCE based trauma. In fact, Superman has survived magical attacks that would KILL just about anyone else. So, the Man Of Steel is no more PARTICULARLY vulnerable to magic than Batman, Iron Man, Aunt May, or Perry White (you just can't jump in front of him, yell "Hocus Pocus" and expect him to fall to the ground screaming). Superman is affected by magic the same way anyone that is not an omnipotent is. So Aquaman affecting Kal is not about magic---it's about Orin being just that good.

Honestly---you have so many things incorrect because you think how you feel and think about Aquaman is how things are. It's not about "popularity"; real comic readers know how bad Aquaman is and always has been-and THAT is why he is chosen to win over The Sub-Mariner. You're going to have to realize---Aquaman is NOT the scrub you want him to be.

EcstaticGrace, glad to see you co-sign how awesome Aquaman is.

Avatar image for kruzer
#143 Edited by Kruzer (49 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows said:

@ecstaticgrace: @kruzer: Kruzer, you have really got to stop using such definitive language about things you state that are often opinions of yours-not facts-when you don't have evidence to back it up.

You put Orin's strength level at "high street to mid level between Luke Cage and Thing".

Aquaman's feats show him to be low end top level at worst.

You claim that, regarding speed, the sea heroes are "closely matched especially for combat speed"

Curry has outraced torpedos https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139093/2898746-2407810_aquamanfasterthanaspeedingtorp_super.jpgand and beat a plane travelling at hypersonic speed (mach 5) to an island; and has the combat speed to out do the meta humanly fast Deathstroke and to dodge lightning attacks from Weather Wizard on land. There was nothing "inconclusive" about what Orin was telling those guards---he was merely telling them the truth, that he is incredibly fast in the water, and even faster than that when he is on land with the pressure off.

You state "AM has never been considered a major player until they reworked his image and abilities"

Actually, Curry, along with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman was the only hero to have his own series from the 50's throughout the Silver Age with no interruption, was the butt kicking, super strength displaying, sea creatures commanding co star of the "Superman/Aquaman Hour" cartoon (which became the "Superman/Batman/Aquaman Hour a couple years later when Batman and Robin joined the animated series)

and "He was a JLA founder and got respect for that but until the hook hand and later the water hand no one would ever call AM a badass"

One doesn't have to be a "bad ass' to be effective-ask mild mannered characters ranging from the Martian Manhunter, Phantom Stranger, and The Vision about that

and "I've been reading both Marvel and DC since the 80s and my dad gave me his collection to read that goes back father. I don't remember much in offense from AM ever back in those days"

The following endeavor Aquaman did in The Silver Age, so...

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

No man, just...no.

I see that you are one of those people that mistakenly believes Superman is "especially" to weak to magic. Sure--

After all, here's Superman being "easily" affected by the magic of Skyhook's transmutation http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/81805/1686017-supestransmutation.jpg ---

Oh, wait. Superman resisted it. Pretty impressive, since Skyhook was empowered by Blaze, a MAGICAL Death Goddess powerful enough to challenge Neron for control of the Nether Realms and win (for that matter, despite Blaze having complete MAGICAL control of her realm, Superman, in her VERY LAIR resisted her encasing him in a MAGICAL rock prison which he busted out of http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111271301/5239439-7340797672-jeDnC.jpg placing him in MAGICAL lava lakes which he rose out of http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/1990-08-Action-Comics-Page-B.jpg and withstanding several MAGICAL blasts from her, Superman rescued Jimmy Olson-who's soul she wanted to take- from her, and escaped).

In fact, Kal did more than "escape"---eventually, Supes used his heat vision to create an earthquake that led to a chain reaction which incinerated Blazes' MAGICAL dimension. The trauma was so epic that the likes of Dr. Fate, Raven (who stated she thought only her father Trigon could create such a mystical disturbance) and The Black Racer sensed it---with Racer noting it is the first time ever that Blaze has been defeated

http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/supermanrespect2/media/hetvieart_zps2100d05a.jpg.html

http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/supermanrespect2/media/hetvieart2_zps819fdef1.jpg.html

http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/supermanrespect2/media/hetvieart3_zps9dd09ae1.jpg.html

Okay, bad examples---but speaking of Neron who I mentioned a few moments ago, Supes didn't withstand any of HIS mystical attacks-well except for the time Kal resisted Neron's TP, and here, when Kal resists Neron's MAGICAL attempts to take him over http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/7/72524/3164178-7238346042-30567.jpg Oh, okay so mentioning Neron actually ISN'T really a good example...

Surely, THIS example of Superman being magically molecularly manipulated by Disciple counts http://imgur.com/a/JvgnY- oh, but actually, even though Disciple is empowered by several Elder Gods, and his powers alters the bodies of the JLA (including Kyle Rayner Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter) as the scan show Superman tanks this MAGICAL attack and snatches Disciple's Power Staff.

Well, okay, but the Angel Asmodel's MAGICAL Light Of Heaven attack-which, when effective drives the recipient of it instantly insane-worked http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/wonder-woman-vs-magneto-1714954/?page=5 (post 209; click the "spoilers" icon, it's the third scan)---well, no, to Asmodel's intense shock, Superman withstood it and battled on...

Well, this kill shot by Gog on Superman CERTAINLY shows he's vulnerable to magic

http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/GogStaff1.jpg.html

http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/GogStaff2.jpg.html

http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/GogStaff3.jpg.html

http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/GogStaff4.jpg.html

Kingdom Gog’s staff is very powerful, because, as it has the combined power of the Emerald Energy of the Guardians of the Universe, the cosmic energy of the Source, and the MAGICAL might of Shazam and Zeus http://i.imgur.com/qDBgsb3.jpg-- oops, to Gog's startled bafflement, Superman withstands the blast without a mark on him then rescues his various JLA and JSA colleagues.

Hmmmm.

The Kryptonian is no more PARTICULARLY vulnerable to magic than any other mortal; he just can't UTTERLY shrug its effects off ALL the time like most SCIENCE based trauma. In fact, Superman has survived magical attacks that would KILL just about anyone else. So, the Man Of Steel is no more PARTICULARLY vulnerable to magic than Batman, Iron Man, Aunt May, or Perry White (you just can't jump in front of him, yell "Hocus Pocus" and expect him to fall to the ground screaming). Superman is affected by magic the same way anyone that is not an omnipotent is. So Aquaman affecting Kal is not about magic---it's about Orin being just that good.

Honestly---you have so many things incorrect because you think how you feel and think about Aquaman is how things are. It's not about "popularity"; real comic readers know how bad Aquaman is and always has been-and THAT is why he is chosen to win over The Sub-Mariner. You're going to have to realize---Aquaman is NOT the scrub you want him to be.

EcstaticGrace, glad to see you co-sign how awesome Aquaman is.

1st Show me a land speed feet of AM other than his great leaping ability. Everyone knows he's much faster in the water but it's pretty much conjecture that he's faster on land. Also just like the "is Thor fast' debate raging on forever, movement speed doesn't mean combat speed.

2nd Show me some Silver/Bronze age combat offensive power from Arthur. Marvel has downplayed Namor's telepathic abilities greatly and while they were very similar in this regard early it seems to be something Marvel doesn't use anymore. I personally think this was to differentiate the characters. I think this was a bad choice considering telepathic powers tend to given more to mutants like Namor, but I understand making the characters different. That said PLEASE show me AM having anything close to the physical combat prowess of Namor, especially on land.

3rd When did this turn into a Superman debate. You posted more about Kal than Arthur. It's been shown that SM has no extra defense against magic (Not the same as especially weak). Thus a magical strike from someone with super strength would have a greater effect than a non magical strike. Not that magic automatically KOs Kal but it would be harder to shrug it off. It would explain AM flooring Kal without having to boost AM to Superman level strength. With Supes weight around 230-250lb, a strike from someone as strong as Luke Cage would send him flying with a punch like N52 AM did if his defenses were off. Most people, even those on the AM side of this debate, think giving AM near Kryptonian levels strength is stupid and uncharacteristic of what AM has always been.

Last thing I want to say is yes my opinion is subjective. With no exact way to measure stories that are inconsistent over the decades we can never have more than an educated guess. What the characters represent is the point. Namor is a more physical character with feats equal to or greater than Arthur. It seems scans are all that are respected here so here are some feats of Namor.

1st Some strength feats

Breaks the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak
Breaks the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak

Lifts Sub
Lifts Sub

Lifts Destroyer
Lifts Destroyer

Thows a tank at a 747 in the clouds
Thows a tank at a 747 in the clouds

No Caption Provided
Tosses around Godzilla sized creatures
Tosses around Godzilla sized creatures
Holds up the Brooklyn Bridge
Holds up the Brooklyn Bridge

Holds up the island of Utopia & New Atlantis (2 cities)
Holds up the island of Utopia & New Atlantis (2 cities)

Now some combat speed/reflex feats to show why I believe Namor has the Above the Surface advantage

Fast enough to catch missiles from fighter jets
Fast enough to catch missiles from fighter jets
Flight speed in line with BB and Iron Man
Flight speed in line with BB and Iron Man
Dodges lasers etc regularly
Dodges lasers etc regularly
again dodges energy blasts
again dodges energy blasts
Reaction speed
Reaction speed
Flight speed overtaking the Torch
Flight speed overtaking the Torch
Reaction Speed.
Reaction Speed.
Catching a sword.
Catching a sword.

Just for the hell of it let's show some sea Telepathy and other mental strength feats

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
Yes this was also in the Strength feats
Yes this was also in the Strength feats

Namor's senses are ridiculous

Hearing
Hearing
Sight
Sight
Touch
Touch

Lastly Namor goes toe to toe with the heaviest hitters in the MU

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for theonewhoknows
#144 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@kruzer: Okay---it appears you are one of those "Willfully Ignore Evidence To Believe What You Want to Believe" type of people; despite being given examples of "land speed feet other than his great leaping ability" by me and EcstaticGrace, you come right back asking for more; you even call a direct quote from Aquaman about how he is much faster on land with the "pressure off'" than he is in water "conjecture" (face palm). No---if he is fast in water (and has that advantage over Namor there) and faster on land---then the speed advantage over Sub-Mariner doesn't magically go away when the two are on land. That's cognitive reasoning 101. That advantage doesn't go away because you want it to, because you "like" Namor better.

Perhaps you need a visual of a Silver Age feat already mentioned (Aquaman dodging point blank lightning blasts)

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

Then, you are given a "two fer" of Aquaman displaying a Silver/Bronze Age combat offensive power" and a feat of Orin "offensively" battering freakin' Silver Age Superman about with his TP---yet you ignore this and ask for more. Arthur has even defeated the team busting Starro with his TP, then his physical power in the Silver Age

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

Aquaman has always been superior to Namor in TP, with better, and more often displays of this power since way back. The fact that you are even arguing this aspect of the two indicates how biased you are; even some of the most rabid Namor fans I've encountered at least do not argue about that.

Aquaman has been fighting on land since way back like here, on a docked ship's deck

No Caption Provided

Here is the aforementioned "Snap Building Crushing Vines With A Flex Of His Muscles While Smiling feat, WHILE HE WAS ON LAND

No Caption Provided

As far back as The Golden Age, Aquaman casually, with one arm did things like this ode to animal cruelty

No Caption Provided

...so enough with the "he only recently showed super strength" jazz, already.

This didn't "turn into a Superman debate". You claimed that it was "magic" that allowed Aquaman to affect Superman, and I showed with multiple, over several years examples that magic is not something that Kal is "especially" vulnerable to over other characters---yet as usual, you've willfully ignored this, and are right back to talking about magic (the examples and scans showed Superman even withstanding magic attacks that affected other powerful JLA members). For the umpteenth time-magic attacks that hurt Superman-but he powered through, and ultimately won against-would terminate Batman, Iron Man, Captain America, Gamora, Geo Force, and countless others. Unless one is an omnipotent, magic affects everyone differently than normal, non magical assaults. Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, and countless other magic empowered foes didn't especially impact Superman with their blows---you think Aquaman's blows are more "special" than theirs?

C'mon, man.

People throughout this thread have posted modern feats that compare, and even surpass Namor so I'm not going to post more (especially since, judging by your prior behavior, you'll just willfully ignore them to stick to the narrative you want to believe, so why exhaust myself). I just wanted to show that Aquaman's prowess has been stellar since way back, and the notion that he was a "joke" is only believed by people who didn't truly read his books and only knew about him through pop culture jokes inspired by the insipid "Superfriends" cartoons, or simply didn't like him, and will use any negative aspect of Curry to justify that feeling.

Aquaman was not that far off in strength from Namor even in the past; in modern times, his strength now surpasses him. Add in his superior travel and combat speed, and superior TP, and that results in Aquaman defeating Sub-Mariner in battle.

It's just that simple.

Avatar image for the_red_devil
#145 Posted by The_Red_Devil (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor has gone up against guys like Hulk , Red Hulk , Sentry and even Thor , all these guys are Superior to New-52 Aquaman , and New-52 Aquaman is his strongest version.

Avatar image for theonewhoknows
#146 Posted by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman has gone up against guys like Kyle Rayner Green Lantern, Lobo, a White Martian, and even Martian Manhunter, all these guys are Superior to Sub-Mariner, and now Aquaman has New-52 feats like going against Wonder Woman and Superman that are even more superior to Namor.

Avatar image for lvenger
#147 Posted by Lvenger (36344 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. Classic Namor
  2. New 52 Aquaman
  3. Modern Namor
  4. Post Crisis Aquaman
  5. Silver Age Aquaman

But on a consistent basis, New 52 Aquaman is stronger than Namor.

Avatar image for snikt_bamf
#148 Posted by snikt_bamf (252 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows:

I never understood the logic that living in deep sea means you should have awsome superhuman strenght.

By that logic any fish that goes deep down should be super strong because they live under pressure.

For example this fish

No Caption Provided

Should be like Namor/Aquaman strong.

If you caught it by line it should be able to pull the entire ship all the way to the bottom and destoy it into small pieces.

And should also be able to like smash boulders around and split mountains and stuff down there,

Avatar image for sunman
#149 Posted by SUNMAN (8609 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman

Avatar image for dami24434
#150 Posted by dami24434 (4582 posts) - - Show Bio

namor is stronger by feat. supporting an island is better than anything aquaman has ever done. smh