Aquaman and Iron Man vs. Storm and Carol Danvers

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LordWhiskers

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vs.

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Rules:

  • Random Battle
  • Perfect Teamwork
  • Aquaman has access to Post Crisis. N52 and Rebirth Feats
  • 616 Versions of Iron Man, Storm and Carol
  • Win by any means

Round 1: Morals on and in character

Round 2: Bloodlusted and morals off

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NewWorldOrder

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Aquaman and Iron Man most definetly.

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Lord-Parallax

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Honestly either Arthur or Tony could solo.

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Noone1996

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Iron Man solos. Aquaman solos.

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Lilbroomstick

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Iron Man stomps, Arthur stomps

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time1

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First of all tony or arthur wouldn't be able to solo this team. Iron man wouldn't be able to beat captain marvel and storm. As a team arthur and tony could beat them.

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Void_Reborn

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Team 1 for a majority.

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Battle123axe

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Noone1996

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Iron Man still solos.

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EcstaticGrace

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@noone1996: Kinda hard to solo a character you have a losing streak against 😂

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Noone1996

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@ecstaticgrace: Not when the "streak" only includes only 2 recent showings. Those shitty instances don't negate the times his armors embarrassed her in the 90s.

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HukO

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meh darkseid or thanos solos

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EcstaticGrace

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@ecstaticgrace: Not when the "streak" only includes only 2 recent showings. Those shitty instances don't negate the times his armors embarrassed her in the 90s.

She’s had a strength boost since then. You could do stuff like compare the way they operated against War Machine recently as well.

Statements or doubling down by multiple writers on the fact of their placements. Or his armor placement in relation to fighting her.

Even if you believe that she has no upgrade since the 90s which would be ignoring something straight up written. It’s hard to ignore recent portrayals that seem backed up by a lot of writers

Bendis, Thompson, even your Slott mention of her being called the bigger gun.

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Darth_Nimrod

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Aquaman and Ironman.

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Noone1996

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@ecstaticgrace: Still doesn't cancel out the showings against Iron Man armor in the modern or classic era. There are more showings of Tony being superior than otherwise. There has been no explanation for her strength boost so treating it like an inconsistency is not unreasonable.

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EcstaticGrace

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#16  Edited By EcstaticGrace

@noone1996: She was stated to becoming more powerful when she separated from Cru and got her Binary powers back. When she lost her Binary powers and connection to the white hole she was stated to have being weaker. That’s a statement right there of her getting stronger thats past the 90s

She wouldn't get her Binary status or become more powerful until Ms Marvel v2 #23 (March 2008). Where an Alien called Cru suggest that when they separate she'd become more stronger than before.

We saw this with Cru after they separated, with Cru being stated to also having been more powerful.

So there is logic in why the 90s showings aren’t the most concrete thing to go on especially over modern showings.

This is a bio from a handbook where she was War Bird in the 90s

No Caption Provided

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7285655-f3441248-37fc-496f-944a-c53f137a3bfb.jpeg


It straight up says she got weaker. She couldnt even breathe in space anymore based off the bio, which changed after her encounter with Cru. That’s a difference enough to suggest a change since the 90s and noticeably so given Carol can breathe unaided in space

No Caption Provided

It also says her power levels vary based on ambient energy around her, which is also backed up again in the 90s by Hank Pym

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Noone1996

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#17  Edited By Noone1996

@ecstaticgrace: I’ve already explained to you in 2 separate replies now about why that Cru explanation is bullshit, but keep ignoring it and pretending like a character from 2008 “amped” and explained why she’s somehow suddenly nearing Thor tiers of power (which wasn’t shown until Civil War II in 2016). The mental gymnastics never ceases to amaze me.

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EcstaticGrace

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#18  Edited By EcstaticGrace

@noone1996 said:

@ecstaticgrace: I’ve already explained to you in 2 separate replies now about why that Cru explanation is bullshit, but keep ignoring it and pretending like a character from 2008 “amped” and explained why she’s somehow suddenly nearing Thor tiers of power (which wasn’t shown until Civil War II in 2016). The mental gymnastics never ceases to amaze me.

Your explanations just downright come down to ignoring it because you don’t seem to like it, and want to cling onto showings from 20+ years ago.

She was straight up said to get stronger under a certain circumstance which happened. (The separation from Cru). She was also straight up said to have been weaker Before then during the time period you cling to. Her very connection to her Binary powers made her stronger

No Caption Provided

This is Beast telling her, her powers decreased and she wouldn’t be able to access Binary. Cru separates from her and that connection is brought back. So by virtue should of increased her power and like Cru said she would Carol became stronger than before.

Mental Gymnastics is ignoring all that stuff posted in actual scans for you to visually actually see, and denying it cause nothing less of you choosing to do so.

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thebuckaronatr

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Nobody solos but unamped should Tony and Arthur take it.

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FloLikeYou

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#20 FloLikeYou  Online

LOL at Aquaman soloing,

Ironman isn’t soloing either ...

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TonyStark6999

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Cruelrain

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Iron Man vs Storm? Oh no...

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WaitOmegaStorm

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Storm defeats Arthur due to the powerset advantage, and Carol stomps ironman again.

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EcstaticGrace

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Storm defeats Arthur due to the powerset advantage, and Carol stomps ironman again.

What powerset advantage is that?

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WaitOmegaStorm

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@ecstaticgrace: basically several things that can keep he away from her, like tornadoes for example, she can weaken he by moisture manipulation + lightning spam or she can throw he into space.

She is more versatility and has better mobility

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Lilbroomstick

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#26  Edited By Lilbroomstick

Tony orbital strikes storm, Arthur drops and drowns Danvers

GG

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EcstaticGrace

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@ecstaticgrace: basically several things that can keep he away from her, like tornadoes for example, she can weaken he by moisture manipulation + lightning spam or she can throw he into space.

She is more versatility and has better mobility

You have instances of Aquaman being taken down by any weather related attack. His trident has a lot of the same abilities as well as counters to those abilities.

Normally Aquaman Isn’t the most versatile but between Post-Crisis, Rebirth and New52 that’s not the case.

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DoctorDaMn

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#28 DoctorDaMn  Online

Team 1

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Noobmaster2001

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#29  Edited By Noobmaster2001  Online

Ironman solos. Aquaman solos.

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EcstaticGrace

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Ironman isnt soloing though...

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WaitOmegaStorm

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@ecstaticgrace: well as i remember Ocean Master was able to affect him with his lightning, I don't know Arthur's record against Weather Manipulators very well.

and I would like to know if these couters are able to prevent the powers of someone who manipulates the weather at Storm level, how would he stop Tornado spam or lightning spam? or how would he stop Storm from opening the Ozone layer over the battlefield? and what would he do if she just threw him into space?

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EcstaticGrace

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#32  Edited By EcstaticGrace

@waitomegastorm said:

@ecstaticgrace: well as i remember Ocean Master was able to affect him with his lightning, I don't know Arthur's record against Weather Manipulators very well.

and I would like to know if these couters are able to prevent the powers of someone who manipulates the weather at Storm level, how would he stop Tornado spam or lightning spam? or how would he stop Storm from opening the Ozone layer over the battlefield? and what would he do if she just threw him into space?

His trident absorbs energy, lightning should honestly just be redirected or absorbed by his trident and he has a myriad of feats of just plain on fighting through lightning. Lightning spam isn’t a viable win option for Storm here given her opponents can absorb it or taken Lightning to no negative lasting consequence.

Ocean Master affected him but Aquaman remained conscious. That was also without absorbing it and just straight up tanking it. And Orm straight up tried to lightning spam Aquaman and failed to put him out of their fight.

Who has she thrown out into space who is as strong and as durable as Aquaman?

Aquaman can also survive in space throwing him out there wouldn’t be beating him.

And he has a JL Card that allows him to teleport to the watchtower which has its own teleportation.

What were these tornadoes capable of?

Youd have to explain the Ozone layer thing to me.

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Batvibe12

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Team 1.

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Noone1996

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@ecstaticgrace: Failing to become Binary would make her weaker. Nowhere is it explicitly stated (especially not in Cru’s handbook entry) that Carol’s “strength boost” was referring to the base stats only. They never outright make a distinction between the two. Furthermore, this is backed up even more by the fact that after the repairs Carol isn’t even portrayed as more powerful unless she is in Binary form. You are the only one ignoring things by oversimplistically looking at the word “stronger” and using that as an excuse to shrug off poor showings.

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EcstaticGrace

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#35  Edited By EcstaticGrace

@noone1996 said:

@ecstaticgrace: Failing to become Binary would make her weaker. Nowhere is it explicitly stated (especially not in Cru’s handbook entry) that Carol’s “strength boost” was referring to the base stats only. They never outright make a distinction between the two. Furthermore, this is backed up even more by the fact that after the repairs Carol isn’t even portrayed as more powerful unless she is in Binary form. You are the only one ignoring things by oversimplistically looking at the word “stronger” and using that as an excuse to shrug off poor showings.

She became capable of breathing in space in her base state after her encounter with Cru that already is a difference in her base state that wasn’t there beforehand.

Yet after the separation in her “base state” in the same run after she was stated to become more powerful than she was before

No Caption Provided

After this point we see Carol capable of being in space without her Binary form something she needed a suit previously to do, her Binary form in order to do, or needed something to allow her to be in space unaided. That right there is a difference. Mental gymnastics is ignoring all of that, picking and choosing what’s allowed to be different when it straight up says “she’ll become more powerful” not that she’s more powerful just in Binary. I’d understand your point if there wasn’t noticeable changes like the fact she can now survive in space in base.

Never did I suggest Binary wasn’t a major power up but her base was also obviously increased as well. Otherwise she wouldn’t be able to breathe in space. Similar to how Saiyans after discovering a new form get a boost to their base stats despite training in new forms. It’s not just the SS2 that is increased its their baseline attributes

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Mooty_Pass

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#36  Edited By Mooty_Pass

Hmm interesting Battle. The Females Win.

-Currently, Captain Marvel is more than a Match for Ironman now. Back in the day Carol Danvers could not beat Ironman. But now? She could wreck Ironman any time she wants if he so muched as looked at her wrong.

-The only way I see Ironman beating these ladies is if he had prep.

-Aquaman vs Storm isn't entirely fair. I don't see Aquaman tagging Storm anytime soon. Storm could trap him in a Tornado for as long as she see's fit. Aquaman has some good Electric Durability. But not good enough to withstand a good hit from Storm. After that Ironman get's jumped by Carol and Ororo.......

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HukO

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Yeah do belive females wins they have major advantages

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Noone1996

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#39  Edited By Noone1996

@ecstaticgrace: Your whole argument is that she can now breathe in space? What the hell does that have to do with amps or power levels? That's just a new or repaired ability. If you want to make references to instances after she was "aMpEd" by Cru, let's use this one where she literally ONLY references the "Binary abilities" which she returned to her:

No Caption Provided

All Cru did was return her Binary abilities which is what they were talking about increasing her strength. If you want to pretend like breathing in space proves that she's more powerful or that it somehow correlates to a base amp, be my guest. Don't expect me to believe that horseshit logic though. Especially since it doesn't explain her current sudden inconsistent high end showings.

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EcstaticGrace

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#40  Edited By EcstaticGrace

Why would it outright have to say her strength in base was increased when it didnt even say her power will be increased due to Binary? You see how double edged that works? The difference is I have examples of her physicality being altered due to Cru in Carol’s base state. Your picking and choosing.

@noone1996 said:

@ecstaticgrace: Your whole argument is that she can now breathe in space? What the hell does that have to do with amps or power levels? That's just a new or repaired ability. If you want to make references to instances after she was "aMpEd" by Cru, let's use this one where she literally ONLY references the "Binary abilities" which she returned to her:

No Caption Provided

All Cru did was return her Binary abilities which is what they were talking about increasing her strength. If you want to pretend like breathing in space proves that she's more powerful or that it somehow correlates to a base amp, be my guest. Don't expect me to believe that horseshit logic though. Especially since it doesn't explain her current sudden inconsistent high end showings.

None of what you posted disputes the fact her physicality was altered in base. Meaning there was a difference. Your choosing how far the difference is allowed to go based on preference. She was also stated to be weakened when Beast told her she’d no longer be able to access her Binary powers. Something she can now do. Her having access to them is a change

“She made me more than what I was” Meaning a change, meaning she became different, meaning you can’t hold her to herself before that point, because at that point she was “more than what she was”

The difference is in order to stay Binary for long periods of time she needs an energy source thats it. It also doesn’t disprove the fact of her being more powerful in base.. Especially given her physicality was altered since she can now breathe in space

No Caption Provided

Even then she can still tap into Binary for short burst without energy absorption like the feat you provided of her melting out of ice against a Super Skrull. Or the recent instance up above.

How does that disprove the fact Cru word for word said Carol and herself would become more stronger after they separate.? Or the fact that Cru said Carol will live to become stronger? You took a couple days to come up with this?

No Caption Provided

werent you the one also claiming that there was no change to her base state... the space thing legit proves that you were incorrect about that as well... your picking and choosing what’s passable for yourself. Her being able to survive in space Post-Cru separation straight up suggest theres enough disparity between her old Ms Marvel powers and Post-Cru Separation she’s been physically altered. Being physically altered in any form brings into question what she’s now capable of compared to her Pre-Encounter with Cru. That just so happens to be beating the Ironman armor and surviving in space.

I don’t know how you can avoid scans stating “made me more than what I was”

”live stronger than before”

”We will become stronger if we separate”

Thats some pretty impressive acrobatics

Ive told you multiple times let’s CAV this because I’d like to see your argument laid out in a 1v1 debate discussion but you don’t even address my CAV mentions at all. Ironic too given you have the more popular character on your side that youve been trying to promote as a hightier on these forums for a couple years now. Given how knowledgeable you are on Ironman it’s ironic you don’t feel confident to rep him in a CAV.

My argument is her physicality is changed in her base form which I shown. Meaning she is different. The comics stating stuff like she’s more that what she was backs my point. On top of the stuff when she lost access to her Binary powers on instances you cling too where she stated she was weaker and felt her power fading..

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Dmnb2wavy

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#41  Edited By Dmnb2wavy

@ecstaticgrace: not gonna lie a cav with you and none would be interesting

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Dmnb2wavy

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EcstaticGrace

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From Ms Marvel 2006 issue 24

No Caption Provided

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Noone1996

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Why would it outright have to say her strength in base was increased when it didnt even say her power will be increased due to Binary? You see how double edged that works? The difference is I have examples of her physicality being altered due to Cru in Carol’s base state. Your picking and choosing.

How is that even remotely the same? The only thing that we can ACTUALLY SEE or CONFIRM is that her Binary powers were repaired. It says so in handbook entries and we can see her accessing that power later. We know that going Binary increases her power, so how is it reaching to assume THAT is what they were referring to??? Where is the evidence that her base stats were increased? Is she shown doing things she couldn't do before? Is she more successful against villains that she previously struggled against? There is none. None whatsoever. You can't prove shit, so saying that my argument is reaching when you yourself have no tangible evidence other out of context statements which could be interpreted a number of different ways, just solidifies my point.

None of what you posted disputes the fact her physicality was altered in base.

In this scan, when she refers to what Cru did, all she said was that her Binary powers were returned. She didn't say, "mE nOw aCcEsS nEw aMp". No proof of a base amp. She says that her powers were "returned" which means they were there before and now they are back. We know that the Binary ability is what she lost, so it's a pretty telling example.

Meaning there was a difference. Your choosing how far the difference is allowed to go based on preference. She was also stated to be weakened when Beast told her she’d no longer be able to access her Binary powers. Something she can now do. Her having access to them is a change

Was she not weaker without her Binary power? I don't understand how you can just gloss over this idea that there is a difference between her base and Binary power levels. Beast was not referring to her base stats only. He was saying that, overall, her power was lower without the Binary energies gone. He doesn't differentiate between the two.

“She made me more than what I was” Meaning a change, meaning she became different, meaning you can’t hold her to herself before that point, because at that point she was “more than what she was”

Yeah "more than she was" before when she didn't have Binary energies inside of her... All of this can be interpreted as just referring to her Binary powers being returned. There is no proof that the writer is specifically referring to her base stats rising in ADDITION to Binary. The desperation here is ridiculous. In Cru's handbook entry it doesn't say SHIT about being able to just "aMpLiFy" hosts with her abilities. It literally says that she was able to "independently set up emergency repair protocols on its own original host body or another's body".

No Caption Provided

Am I missing something? Or maybe next you're going to twist the "repairs" to mean that it somehow meant she "repaired" her low power levels to become high? Smh.

The difference is in order to stay Binary for long periods of time she needs an energy source thats it. It also doesn’t disprove the fact of her being more powerful in base.. Especially given her physicality was altered since she can now breathe in space

It doesn't disprove it, but it doesn't prove it either. The only confirmed thing that we see is that she has Binary now and can now breathe in space (which she could before even in issue 3 lmao). So saying, "well we don't KNOW if her base powers were also amped too, but you don't know if they WEREN'T" is not proving anything. That's not how the burden of proof works. The "being able to breathe in space" thing is also ANOTHER example of her power just being repaired to what it was.

Even then she can still tap into Binary for short burst without energy absorption like the feat you provided of her melting out of ice against a Super Skrull. Or the recent instance up above.

All Cru did was repair her broken power.

How does that disprove the fact Cru word for word said Carol and herself would become more stronger after they separate.? Or the fact that Cru said Carol will live to become stronger? You took a couple days to come up with this?

No, I have a life outside of this website. If I don't have enough time for a couple quick comments on CV, then I don't even open my notifications for days and sometimes weeks. I didn't see your comment until I opened them recently. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that "stronger than before" and "more than I was", which are extremely vague statements, were referring to BOTH Binary AND her base stats instead of just Binary. You have not done that.

werent you the one also claiming that there was no change to her base state... the space thing legit proves that you were incorrect about that as well... your picking and choosing what’s passable for yourself. Her being able to survive in space Post-Cru separation straight up suggest theres enough disparity between her old Ms Marvel powers and Post-Cru Separation she’s been physically altered. Being physically altered in any form brings into question what she’s now capable of compared to her Pre-Encounter with Cru. That just so happens to be beating the Ironman armor and surviving in space.

First of all, being able to breathe in space does not prove that her base stats are higher. That's not a power level related ability. How is that hard to understand? Are you actually trying to claim that she wasn't "durable" enough to survive in space, but now she can so that proves an amp? That's absurd. It'd be like if I showed an old Iron Man armor boot jets failing to work in space and then, after Tony made some adjustments and it could now operate just fine in space, claiming that this armor was "amped" from the other one. Even better, what if I used that space related example to say, "Thor beating Iron Man is bad writing because that instance was before he 'amped' his armor to be able to fly in space". It's just horrid logic. That's exactly what you do. You are DESPERATELY reaching for this because you NEED to make justifications for why Ms. Marvel sucks. Her old showings COMPLETELY contradict her current ones and it's pretty pathetic how disingenuous you are being just to prove that Carol is not inconsistent. It honestly reminds me of how the Storm fans are to be honest.

Second of all, you are only proving my point with this mental gymnastics here by mentioning Iron Man. So the "evidence" that Cru actually did amplify her base stats is finally seen in stories 8-12 years later when she beats Tony in Civil War II and Captain Marvel #13? LMAO, okay dude.

I don’t know how you can avoid scans stating “made me more than what I was”

”live stronger than before”

”We will become stronger if we separate”

Thats some pretty impressive acrobatics

  • More than I was = her powers were weakened and broken before, so now that they are fixed they are more than she was. That's not saying more than she "ever was". It's saying more than she was while her powers were broken. Easy debunk.
  • Live stronger than before = her powers were weakened and broken before, so now that they are fixed she is stronger than before. That's not saying she's living stronger than "ever before". It's saying she's going to live stronger than when her powers were broken and she couldn't turn Binary. Easy debunk.
  • We will become stronger if we separate = her powers were weakened and broken before Cru merged with her, so when Cru leaves her body she will be stronger due to the repairs to Binary. She won't become stronger than she ever was, but she will just become stronger than when her powers were broken and couldn't become Binary. It's really not hard to understand.

Ive told you multiple times let’s CAV this because I’d like to see your argument laid out in a 1v1 debate discussion but you don’t even address my CAV mentions at all. Ironic too given you have the more popular character on your side that youve been trying to promote as a hightier on these forums for a couple years now. Given how knowledgeable you are on Ironman it’s ironic you don’t feel confident to rep him in a CAV.

I don't have the time to rep him in a CaV, but sure let's chalk that one up to a lack of confidence and being afraid. Anymore genius level interpretations? Maybe next you'll tell us how the "cRu aMp" actually took 10 years to develop Carol into a high tier. The only reason you are desperately arguing this point is because you will stop at nothing to discredit the Iron Man armors outright stomping Carol so many times in the past. You can't address those arguments yourself, so you'd rather just say "herrr derrr they old and Carol way amped and stronker now" instead of acknowledging her inconsistency. Hell, your only examples of Carol's superiority come from two different stories (Civil War II and Captain Marvel 13) and even in those stories she's written at a MASSIVELY inconsistent level. She goes from stomping Tony's Hulk-Buster armor without amps to not being able to put down his base suit WITH amps. That's a huge gap.

My argument is her physicality is changed in her base form which I shown. Meaning she is different. The comics stating stuff like she’s more that what she was backs my point. On top of the stuff when she lost access to her Binary powers on instances you cling too where she stated she was weaker and felt her power fading..

Your argument has no substance. Other than now being able to breathe in space, what other changes are shown after Cru's repairs? There is no evidence of a base stat amp and "being stronger" or "more than she was" is comparing her when her powers were broken and unable to become Binary to after when her powers are fixed and she can transform into Binary again. Binary makes her stronger. Stop reaching just so you can justify her current unexplained amp and don't have to address her past inconsistencies.

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#46  Edited By EcstaticGrace

@noone1996:

How is that even remotely the same? The only thing that we can ACTUALLY SEE or CONFIRM is that her Binary powers were repaired. It says so in handbook entries and we can see her accessing that power later. We know that going Binary increases her power, so how is it reaching to assume THAT is what they were referring to??? Where is the evidence that her base stats were increased? Is she shown doing things she couldn't do before? Is she more successful against villains that she previously struggled against? There is none. None whatsoever. You can't prove shit, so saying that my argument is reaching when you yourself have no tangible evidence other out of context statements which could be interpreted a number of different ways, just solidifies my point

You mean a change in her base like now being able to survive in space unaided.. Your picking what's allowed to be different. When it's clearly shown she's changed enough after that point not to hold her to any instances prior

to this

Villains she struggled with prior in her base Ms Marvel powers? Like Tiger Shark someone you suggested before she was only able to beat due to pressure points

No Caption Provided

Post-Cru being able to beat and fight a Skrull that she stated was "Playing with Tiger Shark"

I could also bring up her portrayals Pre-Cru and Post-Cru against Ironman, I know you're fond of the 90s early 2000's portrayal of her powers when she was War Bird

Beast looking at her base stats at that era told her, that her energy signature made him doubt she'd be even able to shift into Binary. Not that her powers decreased because she wasn't in Binary form...

In this scan, when she refers to what Cru did, all she said was that her Binary powers were returned. She didn't say, "mE nOw aCcEsS nEw aMp". No proof of a base amp. She says that her powers were "returned" which means they were there before and now they are back. We know that the Binary ability is what she lost, so it's a pretty telling example.

In the scan you provided she talks about Cru returning her Binary powers in the multiple scans I provided she was either stating or talking about becoming more powerful or being stronger

Your clinging to the notion that because the writer didn't outright say she was amped in base despite showing her doing things she couldnt do beforehand like survive unaided in space that she didn't get more powerful or stronger... despite instances of her repititively being stated to have gotten more powerful/stronger

Your argument is basically despite Cru saying outright that Carol and herself will get stronger after they separate that Carol is only stronger in a form that she has to absorb energy to stay in for a prolonged period of time... How does that make sense to you.

Cru returning Binary isn't the only power increase, being able to even access her Binary form is a change in power which again was mentioned by Beast (Hank McCoy) her being able to survive in space unaided something she was only able to do prior with her Binary powers helps show that increase

Was she not weaker without her Binary power? I don't understand how you can just gloss over this idea that there is a difference between her base and Binary power levels. Beast was not referring to her base stats only. He was saying that, overall, her power was lower without the Binary energies gone. He doesn't differentiate between the two.

No Caption Provided

Based on the readings in her base stats... Beast is coming to this conclusion looking at her base stats, the loss of her Binary powers clearly affecting it.

Yeah "more than she was" before when she didn't have Binary energies inside of her... All of this can be interpreted as just referring to her Binary powers being returned. There is no proof that the writer is specifically referring to her base stats rising in ADDITION to Binary. The desperation here is ridiculous. In Cru's handbook entry it doesn't say SHIT about being able to just "aMpLiFy" hosts with her abilities. It literally says that she was able to "independently set up emergency repair protocols on its own original host body or another's body".

No Caption Provided

Am I missing something? Or maybe next you're going to twist the "repairs" to mean that it somehow meant she "repaired" her low power levels to become high? Smh.

My only desperation is trying to get my point across from actually reading the context. I'm not hiding anything or creating stuff out of thin air

This whole part of your response is ironic given you made a thread called "Ironman vs Mid-Tiers" tried to lowball Carol in it originally having her fight against Frank Castle in it. Seems like you took it down though lol given anyone could actually go to the comic and see the portrayal of Frank/Ironman vs Frank/Carol wouldn't have helped your case. Your intent here is clear. Nothing I post is valid simply because you don't want it to be. Cause truthfully it hurts claims from your 20 yr old instances.

Heck the Tiger Shark mention is convenient as hell too in that thread.

  • More than I was = her powers were weakened and broken before, so now that they are fixed they are more than she was. That's not saying more than she "ever was". It's saying more than she was while her powers were broken. Easy debunk.
  • Live stronger than before = her powers were weakened and broken before, so now that they are fixed she is stronger than before. That's not saying she's living stronger than "ever before". It's saying she's going to live stronger than when her powers were broken and she couldn't turn Binary. Easy debunk.
  • We will become stronger if we separate = her powers were weakened and broken before Cru merged with her, so when Cru leaves her body she will be stronger due to the repairs to Binary. She won't become stronger than she ever was, but she will just become stronger than when her powers were broken and couldn't become Binary. It's really not hard to understand.

Based on your own points your whole counter points here basically point towards an amp.. “Her powers were weakened and broken before Cru merger with her”... yeah they were for a long ass time you basically here unintentionally suggested she’s more powerful Post-Cru than she was Pre-Cru to help you out with your points

She also says her powers were a fraction of what they were and Beast said she no longer can go Binary

First of all, being able to breathe in space does not prove that her base stats are higher. That's not a power level related ability. How is that hard to understand? Are you actually trying to claim that she wasn't "durable" enough to survive in space, but now she can so that proves an amp? That's absurd. It'd be like if I showed an old Iron Man armor boot jets failing to work in space and then, after Tony made some adjustments and it could now operate just fine in space, claiming that this armor was "amped" from the other one. Even better, what if I used that space related example to say, "Thor beating Iron Man is bad writing because that instance was before he 'amped' his armor to be able to fly in space". It's just horrid logic. That's exactly what you do. You are DESPERATELY reaching for this because you NEED to make justifications for why Ms. Marvel sucks. Her old showings COMPLETELY contradict her current ones and it's pretty pathetic how disingenuous you are being just to prove that Carol is not inconsistent. It honestly reminds me of how the Storm fans are to be honest.

Being able to breathe in space due to your physicality being altered points to an amp. Your example is also horrendous

A proper example would be if Ironman lets say in his Bleeding Edge failed to beat Thor and then a character “upgrades“ his armor in what way we don’t know but it can now convert air into energy. 10 years later this upgraded Ironman who hasn’t fought Thor since said upgrade beats him we could point it to that upgrade cause there’s nothing in-between that time period to question it.

The problem is her physicality was changed, she was able to beat a villain who beat a villain she struggled with prior. If Ironman gets new armor functions and performs better against characters he didn't do as well against in the past then I'd argue there was an obvious upgrade.

Second of all, you are only proving my point with this mental gymnastics here by mentioning Iron Man. So the "evidence" that Cru actually did amplify her base stats is finally seen in stories 8-12 years later when she beats Tony in Civil War II and Captain Marvel #13? LMAO, okay dude.

Instances of Carol struggling against Ironman Post-Cru separation?

You insulting a fictional character doesn't hurt me as well either lol.

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#47  Edited By EcstaticGrace
@noone1996 said:
@ecstaticgrace said:

Why would it outright have to say her strength in base was increased when it didnt even say her power will be increased due to Binary? You see how double edged that works? The difference is I have examples of her physicality being altered due to Cru in Carol’s base state. Your picking and choosing.

How is that even remotely the same? The only thing that we can ACTUALLY SEE or CONFIRM is that her Binary powers were repaired. It says so in handbook entries and we can see her accessing that power later. We know that going Binary increases her power, so how is it reaching to assume THAT is what they were referring to??? Where is the evidence that her base stats were increased? Is she shown doing things she couldn't do before? Is she more successful against villains that she previously struggled against? There is none. None whatsoever. You can't prove shit, so saying that my argument is reaching when you yourself have no tangible evidence other out of context statements which could be interpreted a number of different ways, just solidifies my point.

None of what you posted disputes the fact her physicality was altered in base.

In this scan, when she refers to what Cru did, all she said was that her Binary powers were returned. She didn't say, "mE nOw aCcEsS nEw aMp". No proof of a base amp. She says that her powers were "returned" which means they were there before and now they are back. We know that the Binary ability is what she lost, so it's a pretty telling example.

Meaning there was a difference. Your choosing how far the difference is allowed to go based on preference. She was also stated to be weakened when Beast told her she’d no longer be able to access her Binary powers. Something she can now do. Her having access to them is a change

Was she not weaker without her Binary power? I don't understand how you can just gloss over this idea that there is a difference between her base and Binary power levels. Beast was not referring to her base stats only. He was saying that, overall, her power was lower without the Binary energies gone. He doesn't differentiate between the two.

“She made me more than what I was” Meaning a change, meaning she became different, meaning you can’t hold her to herself before that point, because at that point she was “more than what she was”

Yeah "more than she was" before when she didn't have Binary energies inside of her... All of this can be interpreted as just referring to her Binary powers being returned. There is no proof that the writer is specifically referring to her base stats rising in ADDITION to Binary. The desperation here is ridiculous. In Cru's handbook entry it doesn't say SHIT about being able to just "aMpLiFy" hosts with her abilities. It literally says that she was able to "independently set up emergency repair protocols on its own original host body or another's body".

No Caption Provided

Am I missing something? Or maybe next you're going to twist the "repairs" to mean that it somehow meant she "repaired" her low power levels to become high? Smh.

The difference is in order to stay Binary for long periods of time she needs an energy source thats it. It also doesn’t disprove the fact of her being more powerful in base.. Especially given her physicality was altered since she can now breathe in space

It doesn't disprove it, but it doesn't prove it either. The only confirmed thing that we see is that she has Binary now and can now breathe in space (which she could before even in issue 3 lmao). So saying, "well we don't KNOW if her base powers were also amped too, but you don't know if they WEREN'T" is not proving anything. That's not how the burden of proof works. The "being able to breathe in space" thing is also ANOTHER example of her power just being repaired to what it was.

Even then she can still tap into Binary for short burst without energy absorption like the feat you provided of her melting out of ice against a Super Skrull. Or the recent instance up above.

All Cru did was repair her broken power.

How does that disprove the fact Cru word for word said Carol and herself would become more stronger after they separate.? Or the fact that Cru said Carol will live to become stronger? You took a couple days to come up with this?

No, I have a life outside of this website. If I don't have enough time for a couple quick comments on CV, then I don't even open my notifications for days and sometimes weeks. I didn't see your comment until I opened them recently. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that "stronger than before" and "more than I was", which are extremely vague statements, were referring to BOTH Binary AND her base stats instead of just Binary. You have not done that.

werent you the one also claiming that there was no change to her base state... the space thing legit proves that you were incorrect about that as well... your picking and choosing what’s passable for yourself. Her being able to survive in space Post-Cru separation straight up suggest theres enough disparity between her old Ms Marvel powers and Post-Cru Separation she’s been physically altered. Being physically altered in any form brings into question what she’s now capable of compared to her Pre-Encounter with Cru. That just so happens to be beating the Ironman armor and surviving in space.

First of all, being able to breathe in space does not prove that her base stats are higher. That's not a power level related ability. How is that hard to understand? Are you actually trying to claim that she wasn't "durable" enough to survive in space, but now she can so that proves an amp? That's absurd. It'd be like if I showed an old Iron Man armor boot jets failing to work in space and then, after Tony made some adjustments and it could now operate just fine in space, claiming that this armor was "amped" from the other one. Even better, what if I used that space related example to say, "Thor beating Iron Man is bad writing because that instance was before he 'amped' his armor to be able to fly in space". It's just horrid logic. That's exactly what you do. You are DESPERATELY reaching for this because you NEED to make justifications for why Ms. Marvel sucks. Her old showings COMPLETELY contradict her current ones and it's pretty pathetic how disingenuous you are being just to prove that Carol is not inconsistent. It honestly reminds me of how the Storm fans are to be honest.

Second of all, you are only proving my point with this mental gymnastics here by mentioning Iron Man. So the "evidence" that Cru actually did amplify her base stats is finally seen in stories 8-12 years later when she beats Tony in Civil War II and Captain Marvel #13? LMAO, okay dude.

I don’t know how you can avoid scans stating “made me more than what I was”

”live stronger than before”

”We will become stronger if we separate”

Thats some pretty impressive acrobatics

  • More than I was = her powers were weakened and broken before, so now that they are fixed they are more than she was. That's not saying more than she "ever was". It's saying more than she was while her powers were broken. Easy debunk.
  • Live stronger than before = her powers were weakened and broken before, so now that they are fixed she is stronger than before. That's not saying she's living stronger than "ever before". It's saying she's going to live stronger than when her powers were broken and she couldn't turn Binary. Easy debunk.
  • We will become stronger if we separate = her powers were weakened and broken before Cru merged with her, so when Cru leaves her body she will be stronger due to the repairs to Binary. She won't become stronger than she ever was, but she will just become stronger than when her powers were broken and couldn't become Binary. It's really not hard to understand.

Ive told you multiple times let’s CAV this because I’d like to see your argument laid out in a 1v1 debate discussion but you don’t even address my CAV mentions at all. Ironic too given you have the more popular character on your side that youve been trying to promote as a hightier on these forums for a couple years now. Given how knowledgeable you are on Ironman it’s ironic you don’t feel confident to rep him in a CAV.

I don't have the time to rep him in a CaV, but sure let's chalk that one up to a lack of confidence and being afraid. Anymore genius level interpretations? Maybe next you'll tell us how the "cRu aMp" actually took 10 years to develop Carol into a high tier. The only reason you are desperately arguing this point is because you will stop at nothing to discredit the Iron Man armors outright stomping Carol so many times in the past. You can't address those arguments yourself, so you'd rather just say "herrr derrr they old and Carol way amped and stronker now" instead of acknowledging her inconsistency. Hell, your only examples of Carol's superiority come from two different stories (Civil War II and Captain Marvel 13) and even in those stories she's written at a MASSIVELY inconsistent level. She goes from stomping Tony's Hulk-Buster armor without amps to not being able to put down his base suit WITH amps. That's a huge gap.

My argument is her physicality is changed in her base form which I shown. Meaning she is different. The comics stating stuff like she’s more that what she was backs my point. On top of the stuff when she lost access to her Binary powers on instances you cling too where she stated she was weaker and felt her power fading..

Your argument has no substance. Other than now being able to breathe in space, what other changes are shown after Cru's repairs? There is no evidence of a base stat amp and "being stronger" or "more than she was" is comparing her when her powers were broken and unable to become Binary to after when her powers are fixed and she can transform into Binary again. Binary makes her stronger. Stop reaching just so you can justify her current unexplained amp and don't have to address her past inconsistencies.

Response a post up. BTW I don't understand how you have time for responses like these but can't do a CAV because of time restraints...

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You mean a change in her base like now being able to survive in space unaided.. Your picking what's allowed to be different. When it's clearly shown she's changed enough after that point not to hold her to any instances prior

to this

Spamming "bReAthE iN sPaCe" argument, I see. I addressed it below so I'll skip this part.

Villains she struggled with prior in her base Ms Marvel powers? Like Tiger Shark someone you suggested before she was only able to beat due to pressure points

Post-Cru being able to beat and fight a Skrull that she stated was "Playing with Tiger Shark"

Lol this isn't exactly a good example considering how much Carol gets owned by this guy. Her solution to beating him is throw him at a bunch of other Super Skrulls and hope they kill each other. By the time he's done, he's too exhausted and weakened to withstand her next couple hits. How is this a good example? We don't even know how well of a fight Tiger Shark put up since their meeting was off-panel. For all we know, he lasted just as long or maybe was taken out by internal heat/ice attacks or something. Meanwhile, she literally admits that she can't even fight this Skrull without hurting herself hitting it. She also says she was hitting with killing force and had to partially tap into Binary energies. This is an awful example.

I could also bring up her portrayals Pre-Cru and Post-Cru against Ironman, I know you're fond of the 90s early 2000's portrayal of her powers when she was War Bird

Beast looking at her base stats at that era told her, that her energy signature made him doubt she'd be even able to shift into Binary. Not that her powers decreased because she wasn't in Binary form...

Carol saying that her powers were a "fraction" of what they were is literally just saying that she lost Binary and she wasn't as strong anymore in general. Don't you understand that the writers don't differentiate between her "base form" and "Binary form"? Only we do that because we are arguing and measuring power levels, but the writers don't. When Beast says, "your powers decreased" he's not talking about her "base" power. He never says that. He's talking about her overall power... That includes the Binary. If he scanned her and she still had the capacity to go Binary, but was in base form, would he not be able to detect the Binary energies within her? Such ridiculous logic.

In the scan you provided she talks about Cru returning her Binary powers in the multiple scans I provided she was either stating or talking about becoming more powerful or being stronger

Did she become overall more powerful due to Cru repairing her and allowing her to become Binary? Yes or no? Generalized and vague statements about being "stronger" or having "power" CAN BE APPLIED TO BINARY. Every single one of them. NONE of the examples you provide differentiates between her base power and Binary. There is no proof that every time they make these generalizations they are referring to BOTH her base stats AND her Binary powers. The writers just merge them as one. They don't view it as two different forms.

Your clinging to the notion that because the writer didn't outright say she was amped in base despite showing her doing things she couldnt do beforehand like survive unaided in space that she didn't get more powerful or stronger... despite instances of her repititively being stated to have gotten more powerful/stronger

She doesn't do anything to show that she was amped in her base form at all, being able to survive in space means nothing, and yes it's important for the writer to differentiate between which form he's talking about becoming stronger. Since it's CONFIRMED through handbook entries that all Cru did was repair Carol, I'm thinking that my stance is far more valid.

Your argument is basically despite Cru saying outright that Carol and herself will get stronger after they separate that Carol is only stronger in a form that she has to absorb energy to stay in for a prolonged period of time... How does that make sense to you.

You are taking that scan completely out of context. Cru and Carol were merged together and they were separated too soon which left them both powerless. THAT is what Cru is talking about when she says "we will be stronger". She's literally saying, "our powers will be restored back to what they were if you let me finish the merge/repairing process":

In the very same sentence, Cru says
In the very same sentence, Cru says "If not, we will both be held as we are -- you powerless..." There it is. Carol was powerless at that moment in time (which is why she needed help against that monster) and they needed to merge back together in order to separate the pieces stuck in Danvers' body. You completely misinterpreted this.
See? She had no powers... Cru is saying we need to complete the repairing process otherwise we will remain weakened. Carol lost her powers because she separated too soon. She was running away from Cru and even in the scan you posted, she's shoving Cru away and saying "get away from me". Cru basically says, "listen, idiot. If you want your powers back, we gotta finish this merging process."

As for the second scan, "you will live even stronger than before"... YES! AFTER SHE REPAIRS HER BINARY! Will she not be stronger than before if she has access to the Binary powers when she didn't before??!?!?! My God this is like arguing with a brick wall.

Cru returning Binary isn't the only power increase, being able to even access her Binary form is a change in power which again was mentioned by Beast (Hank McCoy) her being able to survive in space unaided something she was only able to do prior with her Binary powers helps show that increase

There is no proof that returning Binary "isn't the only power increase". Cru doesn't even have the ability to amplify Carol's powers... Where in her handbook entry does it say she can do that? Where in other issues is that shown?? She can only repair!

Based on the readings in her base stats... Beast is coming to this conclusion looking at her base stats, the loss of her Binary powers clearly affecting it.

If she had Binary energies within her, it wouldn't matter if she was in her base form or not. His scanners would still be able to detect the Binary power within, so her being in her base form or not as he scanned and talked about her here is irrelevant.

My only desperation is trying to get my point across from actually reading the context. I'm not hiding anything or creating stuff out of thin air

YES YOU ARE! You are LITERALLY saying that Cru somehow amped Carol. That's creating stuff out of thin air. How the hell did she manage to do that? Her handbook entry doesn't say SHIT about being able to do that and it doesn't say that that's what happened. You are making up the ability that Cru can merge with hosts and give them power increases when it specifically says all she can do is make repairs.

This whole part of your response is ironic given you made a thread called "Ironman vs Mid-Tiers" tried to lowball Carol in it originally having her fight against Frank Castle in it. Seems like you took it down though lol given anyone could actually go to the comic and see the portrayal of Frank/Ironman vs Frank/Carol wouldn't have helped your case. Your intent here is clear. Nothing I post is valid simply because you don't want it to be. Cause truthfully it hurts claims from your 20 yr old instances.

I love how you never stop mentioning the War Machine/Frank Castle thing like you got me there. OH NO! An Iron Man armor beating another Iron Man armor in a fight?!?! YOU GOT ME!

Also no, I didn't take it down from that mid tiers thread. In fact, my post is so long that I actually cannot edit the original post without ruining or deleting it so I'm actually unable to. Nice try though. Maybe if you actually read through it, instead of skimming and failing to find it, you'd actually learn something.

It's not that nothing you post is valid because I don't want it to be, but it's just not clear-cut. There's no author intent there. Like I said, you have no examples of her performing at a higher level under that same writer. He would have made it known, without using Binary, that she was more powerful in her base form if that was the case. He never did. Throughout the rest of that run, she was never portrayed as stronger in her base and you know it.

Heck the Tiger Shark mention is convenient as hell too in that thread.

Yeah again that's a bad example and the fact that you posted it again just shows you have no other examples.

Based on your own points your whole counter points here basically point towards an amp.. “Her powers were weakened and broken before Cru merger with her”... yeah they were for a long ass time you basically here unintentionally suggested she’s more powerful Post-Cru than she was Pre-Cru to help you out with your points

Her Binary powers were broken and that is what made her weaker. You are even misinterpreting what I'm saying now.

She also says her powers were a fraction of what they were and Beast said she no longer can go Binary

You are just repeating yourself over and over, but let's take a look at the handbook entry, shall we? Doesn't seem like you read it.

Second scan LITERALLY says, "though her powers had stabilized to her old Ms. Marvel levels". Which proves she didn't get a base power decrease after she lost her Binary powers.

It even says that her loss of Binary didn't change her powers at all. It just changed how powerful she was. They describe it the SAME exact way as they do when they are describing her overall power being lower or higher in your examples:

"Merely the level at which they function". So when they refer to Carol's "powers" they don't refer to two separate forms. They talk about her powers in general.

And even look at what they say about Cru:

Doesn't say Cru amped her, does it? It doesn't say ANYTHING about her power levels increasing. It does, however, mention the Binary power loss several times.
Doesn't say Cru amped her, does it? It doesn't say ANYTHING about her power levels increasing. It does, however, mention the Binary power loss several times.

Being able to breathe in space due to your physicality being altered points to an amp. Your example is also horrendous

Ummm no. That could be due to the fact that her lungs are different now or there is a supernatural aura around her that gives her the ability to breathe in space. It has nothing to do with durability or strength or overall physical power/stats. I see that you completely ignored my example of Carol being able to survive in space in issue 3 of her first book, but I'll post it again for you:

No Caption Provided

So I guess this means that Cru just returned her back to these levels after all.

A proper example would be if Ironman lets say in his Bleeding Edge failed to beat Thor and then a character “upgrades“ his armor in what way we don’t know but it can now convert air into energy. 10 years later this upgraded Ironman who hasn’t fought Thor since said upgrade beats him we could point it to that upgrade cause there’s nothing in-between that time period to question it.

Ummm no. That's an awful example. You are proving that she was amped because she could breathe in space. There is no substance there. There's just as little substance there as if Iron Man made his jet boots fly more efficiently while in space and using that as an excuse for not performing well in a physical confrontation. They have nothing to do with another. Being able to breathe or fly better in space is not evidence of an amp at all. Either way, I've already debunked this comparison since Carol could breathe in space BEFORE she lost her Binary powers so that just further cements the idea that all Cru did was return Carol to what she was and did NOT amplify her base stats at all. Only returned Binary.

The problem is her physicality was changed, she was able to beat a villain who beat a villain she struggled with prior. If Ironman gets new armor functions and performs better against characters he didn't do as well against in the past then I'd argue there was an obvious upgrade.

Do you have any other examples? Surely the writer who had Cru "amp" Carol would show us? Even in that example, she had to use her Binary powers just to survive against that Skrull who wrecked Tiger Shark... Smh just give me a break.

Instances of Carol struggling against Ironman Post-Cru separation?

Hmmm how about Castle's War Machine vs Carol? Even in Kelly Thompson's writing she could not even beat Iron Man without manipulating him into blasting/amping her. She fought him an hour after beating Thor so there's a possibility that she was still amped after fighting him. In Slott's Tony Stark: Iron Man run she was overrun/overwhelmed by Tony's older suits. After Siege, his classic suit one-shotted Moonstone who Carol fought many times post "Cru amp". Need I go on?

You insulting a fictional character doesn't hurt me as well either lol. Response a post up. BTW I don't understand how you have time for responses like these but can't do a CAV because of time restraints...

These usually take me around an hour to type out. Do you think that a CaV, where dozens of ADDITIONAL scans and showings need to be addressed or rebutted is the same? We're not even arguing about who would win here... All of this is just talking about the Cru thing alone... Yet you think a CaV wouldn't be much longer or more time consuming?

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#49  Edited By EcstaticGrace

Sigh..

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@ecstaticgrace: We can agree to disagree if you want, but I'm just not convinced that she was "amped" or, at the very least, that it was such a significant one that you get to just ignore all of her bad showings pre-2008.