Anakin Skywalker vs Yoda

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Peak Anakin Skywalker from Revenge of the Sith vs Master Yoda. This is strictly a lightsaber dual, though they can use the Force to amp their abilities and for precognition (no offensive use such as push, pull, choke etc). Anakin is fighting with a clear mind, but both want to kill the other. Takes place in the Jedi Temple and they start 10 yards apart. Win via death or incapacitation. Who wins and why?

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Eisenfauste

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Sorry lad but Count Dooku is pretty much the best Anakin can handle. Yoda is simply in another tier altogether in terms of power, skill, and definitely speed.

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@leo-343 said:

Yoda, handily.

Doubtful, considering what Anakin did to Dooku in this state of ability. Yoda wins but it'd be a hell of a fight and his morals could potentially lose him a round or two considering how much leeway Dooku got out of them.

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#5  Edited By juiceboks  Moderator

@leo-343 said:

Yoda, handily.

Doubtful, considering what Anakin did to Dooku in this state of ability. Yoda wins but it'd be a hell of a fight and his morals could potentially lose him a round or two considering how much leeway Dooku got out of them.

The leeway Yoda's morals afforded Dooku only allowed him to attack Anakin and Obi-Wan with TK and retreat, it didn't actually give him any noticeable edge in their duel and he was still on the backfoot the entire time. At best Yoda's morals will just prolong the duel, not open him up for defeat.

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Yoda everytime.

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Wat. Yoda with ease.

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NinjaWarrior268

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Yoda easily

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BeyondTOAA

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Lol stomps , yoda

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yoda told obi wan to go fight anakin because the emperor is too powerful for him. that statement puts yoda above obi wan and anakin.

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Yoda is still solidly above Ani.

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MasterKungFu

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#13  Edited By MasterKungFu

anakin does to yoda what he did to dooku :P

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Doubtful, considering what Anakin did to Dooku in this state of ability. Yoda wins but it'd be a hell of a fight and his morals could potentially lose him a round or two considering how much leeway Dooku got out of them.

His morals aren't giving him any losses. The moment he realizes he's forced to use all of his power to beat Anakin, he simply will. Anakin's status as the Chosen One and a prodigious Jedi Knight is great, but frankly his relationship with Yoda wasn't on par with Dooku's, and Yoda only wanted to arrest Dooku in AotC.

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Eisenfauste

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How the fock is yoda not winning this handily. Anakin was comparable to dooku at best till he got pissed. Yoda is stronger, faster, more powerful. No way this will be a tough fight for him.

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@shootingnova: @leo-343: @juiceboks: Yeah, I don't think I needed three responses to tell me the same thing. I was a bit generous with the point about morals but the overarching point is that posts like this...

@eyedcyou said:

Wat. Yoda with ease.

@ninjawarrior268 said:

Yoda easily

@beyondtoaa said:

Lol stomps , yoda

@eisenfauste said:

How the fock is yoda not winning this handily. Anakin was comparable to dooku at best till he got pissed. Yoda is stronger, faster, more powerful. No way this will be a tough fight for him.

..are too poorly thought out not to be addressed.

I mean.. "comparable to Dooku at best"? The wording suggests that Anakin at his best is near Dooku but not even quite on-par with him... and yet during TCW (prior to Anakin becoming "vastly more powerful" according to SW.com) Anakin was giving Dooku hell by himself consistently and even pushed him to the ground twice. You've got to criminally underrate him to suggest that by RotS on normal terms he isn't on Dooku's level. When he got "pissed", Dooku pretty much got obliterated. The fact people think Sidious and Yoda are so invincible that they won't have a tough time with someone who can do that to Dooku is pretty hilarious. Maul alone at the climax of his fight with Sidious was giving him enough a good challenge, and we already know that Dooku can keep up with Yoda - Anakin as he was on the Invisible Hand is head and shoulders above either.

There's a pretty obvious reason for why Mace Windu was contemplating Anakin surpassing Yoda in the Revenge of the Sith novel.

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@i_like_swords: Anakin couldn't even see Palpatine, who Yoda kept up with. How is that fair?

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@i_like_swords: There is no overarching point. . . .

So having a different opinion is poorly thought out? hmm

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@eisenfauste:

Yeah, there is. It's that suggesting Yoda take this fight without a great deal of difficulty is hilariously inaccurate.

They aren't mutually exclusive, no.

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@i_like_swords: Yoda wasn't even pushing himself fighting dooku he was comfortably outdueling him. How is Anakin going to fair any better, djem so isn't going to have the same effect on Yoda that it did Dooku and there still will be a speed edge that Yoda holds over him.

What proof do you have that this is going to be I quote,

Yoda wins but it'd be a hell of a fight

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@eisenfauste:

Yoda wasn't even pushing himself fighting dooku he was comfortably outdueling him.

Proof?

How is Anakin going to fair any better,

..because he obliterated Dooku, perhaps?

djem so isn't going to have the same effect on Yoda that it did Dooku

Djem So wasn't even close to being the primary issue in that fight - it was Anakin tapping into his potential.

and there still will be a speed edge that Yoda holds over him.

Doubtful that it's going to be a meaningful one, again, given what Anakin did to Dooku.

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#23  Edited By WollfMyth209

Considering how Anakin and Dooku are pretty comparable, and given Yoda's morals, this probably isn't going to be a stomp. But Yoda does win 10/10.

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#24  Edited By Eisenfauste

Djem So wasn't even close to being the primary issue in that fight - it was Anakin tapping into his potential.

Yes it was. His potential also was a main part but Dooku couldn't keep up with Anakins strength, he was hammering him into the ground with his blows after he got pissed. It ceased to be skill at that point and he just destroyed him with his physical edge as far as I can see.

This is skywalker tapping into his potential,

Skywalker was all over him. The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—Skywalker was getting stronger.

--Star Wars: Revenge of The Sith

Credit to wolf for this.

Doubtful that it's going to be a meaningful one, again, given what Anakin did to Dooku.

There still is a skill disparity between the two. Tapping into his potential yields a lot of raw power enough power to match yoda or supersede him. Power isn't everything and that's about all anakin is going to get from tapping into his potential. Yoda still is the better dueler and still is faster. He's going to win this handily he knows how dangerous Skywalker is, he's going to pull out all stops.

Proof?

Ugh of course you would ask :P. It's 4:46 a.m. here and I'm taking a trip tomorrow. I'll bookmark this thread and trek across the internet in search of some quotes for this once I get some time. . .

Edit: Forgot to tag

@i_like_swords

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#25  Edited By WollfMyth209

When he got "pissed", Dooku pretty much got obliterated. The fact people think Sidious and Yoda are so invincible that they won't have a tough time with someone who can do that to Dooku is pretty hilarious. Maul alone at the climax of his fight with Sidious was giving him enough a good challenge, and we already know that Dooku can keep up with Yoda - Anakin as he was on the Invisible Hand is head and shoulders above either.

To be fair, Dooku was tired from a fight with both Kenobi and Anakin that took part just prior. If he wasn't tired, Anakin's rage amped self would still win, but it'd be closer. Plus there's the Djem So and Makashi relationship. And Maul alone was amped by rage himself and eventually got his sabers blitzed out of his hand, and Yoda was fighting defensively and didn't want to kill or even injure Dooku. And the Count was still forced back after a brief exchange.

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@eisenfauste:

Yes it was.

It really wasn't. The only time Djem So is mentioned is near the beginning of the fight when Kenobi is still present, and while Dooku still had confidence in himself, and was still able to maintain some edge over the duo. The "meteor" quote happened before they had even walked up the stairs and Dooku recovered from it promptly. Below is where the fight turned in Anakin's favour. Suggesting that "skill ceased to be a factor" and that Dooku was just destroyed by Anakin's strength is hilariously wrong.

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

He lifted his blade, and beckoned.

Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.

Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene."Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?

And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question.

[...]

This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.

Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.

--Revenge of the Sith

Tell me... when Anakin channels his anger, stops holding back, and turns a duel with Count Dooku into "a comedy of lightsaber flashes", a "mere pantomime", a "play" in which "Dooku is already dead", a play where Dooku's "decades of combat experience", "mastery of swordplay" and "knowledge of the Force" are all rendered "useless, irrelevant" or even a "joke", and when Anakin cleanly removes both of Dooku's hands... is that all because he uses Djem So? It has nothing to do with his innate talent for combat, his unheard of Force potential or his astounding mastery of lightsaber combat? Just strength, right?

Give me a break. Anakin wiped the floor with Dooku, and it was because at that moment he was better than him, in every way. Stronger, faster, more inherently talented with a lightsaber, more driven, more powerful, more focused - the whole nine yards.

This is skywalker tapping into his potential,

You'd do well to read the novel, because at that point Anakin was still holding back as per Dooku himself. Like I said, that quote comes from one of the earliest portions of the fight.

There still is a skill disparity between the two.

Right, just not a massive one. Dooku, Windu and as of Revenge of the Sith, now Anakin, are all in the same tier of dueling skill as Yoda and Sidious (a "9"), as per Nick Gillard, while Obi-Wan is an 8. Yoda and Sidious' Force augmentation advantage in any given fight is as much as, if not an even greater, factor than their higher level of skill. And given that Anakin bridges both gaps well enough with his demonstration above...

Tapping into his potential yields a lot of raw power enough power to match yoda or supersede him. Power isn't everything and that's about all anakin is going to get from tapping into his potential. Yoda still is the better dueler and still is faster.

Nobody is disputing that Yoda is better - that's the easy part to grasp. Apparently what's difficult is realizing that the speed and skill required to remove one of Dooku's hands and treat a duel with him like a comedic pantomime wherein he is already to be considered dead, is enough to give someone like Yoda hell.

He's going to win this handily he knows how dangerous Skywalker is, he's going to pull out all stops.

Go ahead and build an argument for Yoda winning handily given what I've shown you above. I'll wait.

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@wollfmyth209 said:

Considering how Anakin and Dooku are pretty comparable, and given Yoda's morals, this probably isn't going to be a stomp. But Yoda does win 10/10.

Anakin and Dooku aren't at all comparable when we're using Anakin at his best, which we are in this thread. As a duelist he's closer to Yoda than he is Dooku at this point, unless you think there is some massive void between Dooku and Yoda (there isn't), that Anakin sits right in the middle of?

@wollfmyth209 said:

To be fair, Dooku was tired from a fight with both Kenobi and Anakin that took part just prior. If he wasn't tired, Anakin's rage amped self would still win, but it'd be closer.

Plus there's the Djem So and Makashi relationship.

And Maul alone was amped by rage himself and eventually got his sabers blitzed out of his hand,

and Yoda was fighting defensively and didn't want to kill or even injure Dooku. And the Count was still forced back after a brief exchange.

Dooku can replenish his Force reserves in a matter of seconds, as per the start of my citation above where "the weight of his years dropped away" after finishing Obi-Wan off, so that isn't an excuse.

Which is being overrated so highly in this thread I'm on the verge of vomiting. Anakin disarmed Dooku, he didn't smash through his defences. It was a victory by virtue of skill and overall swordplay, not raw strength. Force Rage covers every aspect of one's combative ability from strength, speed, innate fluidity with a blade and the clarity of your senses and precognition.

Actually, Maul was disarmed by virtue of raw strength in the canon fight where he was drawing on Force Rage. The point of my referencing that fight is that if Maul, amped by Force Rage (who is still a noticeable cut below Anakin), can give Sidious a decent fight, then suggesting Yoda wins handily against this iteration of Anakin is sheer lunacy on the part of whoever is posting it.

Yoda was and I quote "hammering" Dooku's defence apart, so I have no clue where you've gotten that idea that Yoda was fighting only defensively.

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Yoda! Anakin couldn't handle obi wan... don't see how he can handle yoda

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Dooku can replenish his Force reserves in a matter of seconds, as per the start of my citation above where he "drops the years off himself" after finishing Obi-Wan off, so that isn't an excuse.

The weight of his years dropped means he can still keep going in a fight, which he still could. But suggesting that he wasn't tired after fencing and besting two of the greatest swordsmen in the Jedi Order in a close and heated lightsaber duel is ridiculous.

Which is being overrated so highly in this thread I'm on the verge of vomiting. Anakin disarmed Dooku, he didn't smash through his defences. It was a victory by virtue of skill and overall swordplay, not raw strength. Force Rage covers every aspect of one's combative ability from strength, speed, innate fluidity with a blade and the clarity of your senses and precognition.

Yes, he outskilled Dooku, but how wasn't strength exactly a factor? Especially since it's one of the main things Anakin uses within his duels.

Actually, Maul was disarmed by virtue of raw strength in the canon fight where he was drawing on Force Rage. The point of my referencing that fight is that if Maul, amped by Force Rage (who is still a noticeable cut below Anakin), can give Sidious a decent fight, then suggesting Yoda wins handily against this iteration of Anakin is sheer lunacy on the part of whoever is posting it.

In the Disney canon fight. But we're also using Legends here as well. So it depends how you wanna view it. And Yoda isn't winning handily, but he probably will win every time.

Yoda was and I quote "hammering" Dooku's defence apart, so I have no idea where you've gotten that idea.

The original AoTC described him as fighting defensively for a majority of their fight. And he was still holding back by a good extent.

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@wollfmyth209:

The weight of his years dropped means he can still keep going in a fight, which he still could. But suggesting that he wasn't tired after fencing and besting two of the greatest swordsmen in the Jedi Order in a close and heated lightsaber duel is ridiculous.

Have you even got a quote for Dooku being tired as he was fighting Anakin at the latter portion of their fight, or are you just posturing?

Yes, he outskilled Dooku, but how wasn't strength exactly a factor? Especially since it's one of the main things Anakin uses within his duels.

I didn't say it wasn't a factor, I'm saying it's as much a factor as anything else, and thus it's being overrated in this thread.

In the Disney canon fight. But we're also using Legends here as well. So it depends how you wanna view it.

Like I said in the other thread, the Legends bout between them features Maul not dual-wielding and not drawing on Force Rage in any noticeable way. It's an example of Maul at his normal level versus a Sidious who isn't holding back, whereas the canon fight is an example of Maul at his absolute best versus Sidious holding back to a degree but still putting effort in.

And Yoda isn't winning handily, but he probably will win every time.

Maybe. Suggesting that Anakin can't win a single round because of some kind of principle is pretty funny though.

The original AoTC described him as fighting defensively for a majority of their fight.

The film shows Yoda screeching and pretty obviously putting out a dedicated offensive. Without the knowledge of his relationship with Dooku anyone could make the logical deduction that he isn't holding back at all. And we have sources like the AotC comic pointing out that Yoda is in fact hammering at Dooku's defence.

I actually overrated earlier how much leeway Dooku got out of his relationship with Yoda; not very much at all.

And he was still holding back by a good extent.

Prove. It.

As I'm not exempt from proving my claims about Anakin, nor is anyone else who is supporting Yoda.

But I'll do one better and post the AotC novelisation of the fight, wherein Yoda actively tries to kill Dooku and isn't stated as holding back at all, never mind by a "good extent".

Dooku gave a crisp salute, igniting his own red blade, but then, formalities over, he leapt at Yoda, a sudden and devastating thrust.

But one that never got close to hitting. With hardly a movement, Yoda turned the blade aside.Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide.

It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.

Not fast enough.

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.

Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard.

Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade.

With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.

Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.

Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade.

A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back.

The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack.

Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.

"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.

"The battle is far from over!" Dooku stubbornly argued. "This is just the beginning!" Reaching into the Force, he took hold of one of the huge cranes within the hangar and threw it down at Obi-Wan and Anakin.

--Attack of the Clones

I also find it heavily disingenuous that you made a grand effort in trying to convince me that Dooku would have been tired from fighting Anakin and Obi-Wan in RotS, but elected to ignore that the same logic applies to the AotC bout prior to him fighting Yoda as well. Not that he was tired in either instance but ignoring one in favour of the other is.. an interesting debating tactic, to say the least.

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#31  Edited By ShootingNova

Yoda going on the offensive doesn't equate to wanting to kill Dooku, though. The AotC script, junior novel and graphic novel make it all painfully clear that even when fighting defensively only, Yoda is able to hold off all of Dooku's attacks with ease, in spite of the fact that Ataru is well-known for having the weakest defense of the seven forms. When Yoda does attack, Dooku is practically stomped in all instances bar the novel (which is, again, a uniquely conflicting source, as with Palpatine vs Yoda in RotS, until the recent Ultimate sourcebook came out - not to say, of course, that it's an unreliable source, since both the graphic novel and junior novel have been unique in their presentations of some fights before, and the scripts have been changed before).

COUNT DOOKU charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower.

YODA attacks! He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat. Words are insufficient to describe the range and skill of Yoda's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a humming blur of light.

Count Dooku's lightsaber is sent cartwheeling from his hand. He staggers back, gasping and spent, against the control panel. YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.

YODA (continuing) The end for you, Count, this is.

COUNT DOOKU ...Not yet...

COUNT DOOKU raises his arms and knocks YODA off his shoulders and then, with all his might, he uses the Force to pull on one of the cranes in the hanger.

Source: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Attack-of-the-Clones.html
"Count Dooku immediately unleashes his finest assault yet on Yoda. As expert as Dooku's attacks are, none get past the Jedi Master's defenses.With each failed thrust, Dooku's strength weakens..."

Yoda drew his lightsaber and answered the salute. In contests, he had no interest, but in stopping Count Dooku, he had a great deal of interest indeed. And Dooku had left him no other choice.

Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable.

“Fought well, you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said gently, giving him the truth, though he knew that the Count would not want to hear it. Count Dooku had never been happy to merely fight well; the best he must be, always. But not this time.

“This is just the beginning,” the Count snarled.

Yoda felt a great surge in the Force as Count Dooku pulled one of the service cranes off balance.

Source: Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization

Dooku's ability to last against a concentrated offensive from Yoda is inconsistent and varies depending on the source, but several sources have already indicated the ease/effortlessness at which Yoda could repel Dooku's lightsaber assaults, and the fact that Dooku tired from merely failing to penetrate Yoda's defense. These aren't things I could really say for Anakin.

I can't deny that some of the arguments here aren't the finest, though. And Yoda doesn't stomp.

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@shootingnova:

Yoda going on the offensive doesn't equate to wanting to kill Dooku, though.

If this is your argument then it's a pretty gross double standard, given that your mantra for a long time used to be "just because Dooku didn't want to kill Anakin, it doesn't mean he was holding back either!"

And that's true; not killing someone isn't the same as holding back. You can still disarm them or sever limbs.

Having said it's only the Junior Novel and the Junior Novel alone that suggests Yoda isn't willing to kill Dooku.

The AotC script, junior novel and graphic novel make it all painfully clear that even when fighting defensively only, Yoda is able to hold off all of Dooku's attacks with ease, in spite of the fact that Ataru is well-known for having the weakest defense of the seven forms. When Yoda does attack, Dooku is practically stomped in all instances bar the novel

Nobody is denying that Yoda was winning clearly and his defence held seamlessly, so your addition is pretty moot.

However, Yoda doesn't "practically stomp" Dooku at all on the offensive, and none of your sources suggest as much. The script doesn't.

"Count Dooku immediately unleashes his finest assault yet on Yoda. As expert as Dooku's attacks are, none get past the Jedi Master's defenses."

The comic doesn't - not getting past someone's defence isn't equivalent to being stomped, that's hilarious.

The Junior novel barely even portrays Yoda as being on the offensive so how you could deduce that Dooku was being stomped in that source is beyond me. It is the only source that conflicts with the films, film novel and comic - and that's likely because it's a watered down piece of literature with less detail provided on the intricacies of the fight. When it says Dooku can't "pass" Yoda, it's clear that the offence on Yoda's end is implicit rather than explicit.

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#34  Edited By ShootingNova

@i_like_swords:

If this is your argument then it's a pretty gross double standard, given that your mantra for a long time used to be "just because Dooku didn't want to kill Anakin, it doesn't mean he was holding back either!"

No, it's not a double standard. Not wanting to kill doesn't mean you hold back, sure, but that doesn't mean going on the offensive equates to lethal intent, either. Jedi practice offensive forms and can engage in offensive attacks - that hardly means they're out to kill, lol. They only kill when they absolutely have to.

In fact, it's not a double-standard - it's basically the same argument I'm using, except with the reverse terms. A character attacking, killing, or holding back doesn't mean that because of that, he's going to do the others. As such, if Yoda attacks, it doesn't mean he's attempting to kill. You'll need an explicit source suggesting that to convince me.

And that's true; not killing someone isn't the same as holding back. You can still disarm them or sever limbs.

Which Yoda evidently wasn't trying to go after. The only time his objective is even highlighted is in the junior novel, where he only wants to stop Dooku from getting to the Solar Sailer and presumably, arrest him when the additional troops arrive. Unless, of course, you can give me a source as explicit as that to suggest Yoda was trying to kill Dooku as you said.

Having said it's only the Junior Novel and the Junior Novel alone that suggests Yoda isn't willing to kill Dooku.

And no source suggests he's willing to do so, either. The whole nature of the Jedi is to not kill unless absolutely necessary - and obviously Yoda didn't need to kill Dooku in this scenario.

There's hardly an explicit source for Yoda intending to kill, either.

Nobody is denying that Yoda was winning clearly and his defence held seamlessly, so your addition is pretty moot.

Not just seamlessly - effortlessly to the point of not even having to move, and to the point of Dooku tiring himself just by failing to attack - and in pretty humiliating fashion, too.

The extent of Yoda's superiority here is heavily implied to be very considerable, especially because he wasn't moving and he was only defending, which is basically neglecting all of Ataru's strengths. Now consider such an instance in which Yoda did go all-out, moved with maximum mobility/speed and offensiveness, and I think it's clear Dooku would just about get stomped.

However, Yoda doesn't "practically stomp" Dooku at all on the offensive, and none of your sources suggest as much. The script doesn't.

As soon as Yoda attacks, Dooku gets disarmed. Prior to that, it was just Dooku failing his attacks and tiring. I think that's as close as you can get to being stomped other than the words themselves being stated.

The comic doesn't - not getting past someone's defence isn't equivalent to being stomped, that's hilarious.

Don't have the whole comic fight ATM, but it's basically Dooku getting disarmed immediately when Yoda goes on the offensive, Dooku TKing Obi-Wan's saber to his hand to defend himself, and then the running away, as I recall.

The Junior novel barely even portrays Yoda as being on the offensive so how you could deduce that Dooku was being stomped in that source is beyond me.

I think the utter failure of his technique against the weakest trait of Ataru is telling enough, never mind what would happen when Yoda exhibits Ataru's strength. Note that the text explicitly mentions Yoda not even moving (mobility is a trademark feature of Ataru) and being effortless, so had he gone all-out.

How you managed to deduce that Yoda was out to kill Dooku/actively trying to kill on the account of vesting in an attack is beyond me. He obviously didn't need to kill to win, and unless he did, I think that he, an exemplar of Jedi philosophy and morals, wouldn't be going against Jedi tradition and killing for no (necessary) reason. What you cited from the novel was this:

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance.

Yeah... that doesn't mean he's trying to kill. At all.

Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.

Which is great, but obviously Yoda knew Dooku would defend himself with blocks "backed by the power of the Force". Again, doesn't suggest Yoda was out to kill.

Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.

That doesn't mean he's trying to kill Dooku at all, lol.

Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade.

A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back.

The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack.

Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.

Right... and explain how any of this means "Yoda was actively trying to kill Dooku", as you stated right here:

But I'll do one better and post the AotC novelisation of the fight, wherein Yoda actively tries to kill Dooku and isn't stated as holding back at all, never mind by a "good extent".

Because I'm not seeing it.

By contrast, Yoda rendering himself immobile and fighting defensively only is exactly confirmation of "holding back", since he's neglecting the core traits and strengths of Ataru. Even when he attacked, it's questionable if he went all-out based on that "leeway" point you were discussing with the others.

It is the only source that conflicts with the films, film novel and comic - and that's likely because it's a watered down piece of literature with less detail provided on the intricacies of the fight. When it says Dooku can't "pass" Yoda, it's clear that the offence on Yoda's end is implicit rather than explicit.

The comic and script both have Dooku getting disarmed virtually instantly upon Yoda attacking as well.

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@shootingnova:

No, it's not a double standard. Not wanting to kill doesn't mean you hold back, sure, but that doesn't mean going on the offensive equates to lethal intent, either. Jedi practice offensive forms and can engage in offensive attacks - that hardly means they're out to kill, lol. They only kill when they absolutely have to.

And... you don't think killing Dooku was a good idea for Yoda? It was a life or death situation like any other.

Which Yoda evidently wasn't trying to go after.

Maybe if you ignore the film itself and it's official novelisation, yeah.

And no source suggests he's willing to do so, either.

So you missed this part of what I posted above?

"Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through."

As soon as Yoda attacks, Dooku gets disarmed. Prior to that, it was just Dooku failing his attacks and tiring. I think that's as close as you can get to being stomped other than the words themselves being stated.

What are you on about, Nova? Dooku wasn't at any point disarmed and when Yoda went on the offensive it didn't happen. Nothing implies it could have in the given time frame of the fight either. So you're just grasping at straws.

The only part you're correct about thus far is that Dooku had no chance in hell of penetrating Yoda's defence.

Don't have the whole comic fight ATM, but it's basically Dooku getting disarmed immediately when Yoda goes on the offensive, Dooku TKing Obi-Wan's saber to his hand to defend himself, and then the running away, as I recall.

If that's the case then I'm going to have to laugh at you trying to invalidate the official novelisation on the grounds that it is inconsistent... in favour of a comic that veers so far away from the films it just about ceases to be the same fight.

I think the utter failure of his technique against the weakest trait of Ataru is telling enough

Not really, given that Yoda is a master of all lightsaber forms and knows how Dooku fights inside and out, and is already ahead of Dooku on top of those factors. If he really could have stomped Dooku then why wasn't Dooku disarmed in the film in a non-lethal fashion?

How you managed to deduce that Yoda was out to kill Dooku on the account of vesting in an attack is beyond me. He obviously didn't need to kill to win, and unless he did, I think that he, an exemplar of Jedi philosophy and morals, wouldn't be going against Jedi tradition and killing for no (necessary) reason.

It's only beyond you because apparently your ability to read disengages when it suits you.

Again, we agree he didn't need to kill to win, because as you preach day in and day out yourself, non-lethal means of victory are as easily accessible as lethal ones. On that basis you have very little grounds aside from cherry picking sources to push this notion that Yoda could have stomped Dooku but... didn't? Because... reasons?

The comic and script both have Dooku getting disarmed virtually instantly upon Yoda attacking as well.

Making the comic inconsistent to two higher-grade sources, and the script itself is an unfinished product of the film itself. You're reaching.

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I'll address your edits in a second post. Let me edit it in before you reply. Edit: Finished.

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance.

ShootingNova:

Yeah... that doesn't mean he's trying to kill. At all.

I didn't say as much so.. good job?

Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.

ShootingNova:

Which is great, but obviously Yoda knew Dooku would defend himself with blocks "backed by the power of the Force". Again, doesn't suggest Yoda was out to kill.

Nah, sorry, but there's no guarantee on either end that Dooku could have blocked the attacks. If Yoda really didn't want to kill Dooku and only "stop" him he wouldn't be utilizing attacks that came close to puncturing his chest. This is the part where you stop reaching.

Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.

ShootingNova:

That doesn't mean he's trying to kill Dooku at all, lol.

Again.. good job? I underlined those portions of text to point out that Yoda wasn't holding back to the others. You're essentially jumping into a debate you weren't involved in and countering points I wasn't making.

ShootingNova:

Right... and explain how any of this means "Yoda was actively trying to kill Dooku", as you stated right here:

"But I'll do one better and post the AotC novelisation of the fight, wherein Yoda actively tries to kill Dooku and isn't stated as holding back at all,never mind by a "good extent"."

Because I'm not seeing it.

The line where Yoda tries to drive his saber through Dooku is enough, other than that it's implicit from how Yoda is fighting in the film. Moving past that, though, it doesn't even matter, because what you keep failing to grasp is that Yoda wouldn't need to kill Dooku in order to stomp him. If stomping Dooku in any fashion was the intent of the film it would have happened. You don't even have an argument.

By contrast, Yoda rendering himself immobile and fighting defensively only is exactly confirmation of "holding back", since he's neglecting the core traits and strengths of Ataru. Even when he attacked, it's questionable if he went all-out based on that "leeway" point you were discussing with the others.

Or... perhaps Yoda has overcome the weaknesses of Ataru? It's a form suited for fighting lone opponents and does very poorly against multiple foes and yet Yoda has no issue in doing so, and on top of that he's a master of every lightsaber form, so again, you're reaching. Yoda remaining stationary while defending only suggests that he's great defensively, not that he can stomp Dooku.

I corrected myself on the leeway point. You've quoted me and my argument out of context at least four times in one post now, and I'm questioning whether or not to keep taking you seriously because of it. You've just come in and veered the debate completely off-topic for apparently no reason.

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#37  Edited By ShootingNova

@i_like_swords:

And... you don't think killing Dooku was a good idea for Yoda? It was a life or death situation like any other.

No, I don't. It's not a Jedi trait. Yoda was already winning - he only needed to exhaust Dooku to prompt his eventual exhaustion/surrender.

Maybe if you ignore the film itself and it's official novelisation, yeah.

You mean he's out to kill because he attacked, a connection you still haven't established?

So you missed this part of what I posted above?

"Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through."

Addressed that in an edit. Sorry if it didn't come through when you posted.

Anyway, it refers to the strength of Yoda's blows. I think Yoda, having sparred with Dooku before, would be well-aware that the latter would be using the Force to back his blocks, as with any other Force-user vs Force-user scenario.

What are you on about, Nova? Dooku wasn't at any point disarmed and when Yoda went on the offensive it didn't happen. Nothing implies it could have in the given time frame of the fight either. So you're just grasping at straws.

Dooku gets disarmed in both the comic and...

YODA attacks! He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat. Words are insufficient to describe the range and skill of Yoda's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a humming blur of light.

Count Dooku's lightsaber is sent cartwheeling from his hand. He staggers back, gasping and spent, against the control panel. YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.

Source: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Attack-of-the-Clones.html

If that's the case then I'm going to have to laugh at you trying to invalidate the official novelisation on the grounds that it is inconsistent... in favour of a comic that veers so far away from the films it just about ceases to be the same fight.

In favor of the comic and the original script, sure. Also, the comic followed the original script of the film. The part with Dooku getting Kenobi's lightsaber was actually filmed, they just cut it out.

I'm not invalidating anything, either. If you had basic comprehension skills, you would've understood what this meant:

@shootingnova said:

When Yoda does attack, Dooku is practically stomped in all instances bar the novel (which is, again, a uniquely conflicting source, as with Palpatine vs Yoda in RotS, until the recent Ultimate sourcebook came out - not to say, of course, that it's an unreliable source, since both the graphic novel and junior novel have been unique in their presentations of some fights before, and the scripts have been changed before).

I fully admitted the novel's content, I was just saying that sources disagree on this matter and hence there's reasonable doubt on the issue. Therefore, it's not an absolutely ridiculous notion that Yoda could beat Dooku very, very thoroughly, and it's something at least worth considering before being dismissed.

Not really, given that Yoda is a master of all lightsaber forms and knows how Dooku fights inside and out, and is already ahead of Dooku on top of those factors. If he really could have stomped Dooku then why wasn't Dooku disarmed in the film in a non-lethal fashion?

That's what the script of the film shows, lol. There's been changes to the script as of the film, but the notion isn't ridiculous.

It's only beyond you because apparently your ability to read disengages when it suits you.

I'm hearing this from somebody, who, in their last post, just failed to read/comprehend two of the things I posted.... double standards?

Again, we agree he didn't need to kill to win, because as you preach day in and day out yourself, non-lethal means of victory are as easily accessible as lethal ones. On that basis you have very little grounds aside from cherry picking sources to push this notion that Yoda could have stomped Dooku but... didn't? Because... reasons?

I admit I erred in saying "all sources bar the novel", because I neglected the film for some strange reason. Conceded in regards to that - I'm trying to support the notion that it's not unreasonable, at the very least.

Anyways, my main point/push wasn't that Dooku would get stomped in the offensive contest, but more to disprove the notion that Yoda didn't hold back (couldn't have held the edge even without holding back). As I said:

Dooku's ability to last against a concentrated offensive from Yoda is inconsistent and varies depending on the source, but several sources have already indicated the ease/effortlessness at which Yoda could repel Dooku's lightsaber assaults, and the fact that Dooku tired from merely failing to penetrate Yoda's defense.

Making the comic inconsistent to two higher-grade sources, and the script itself is an unfinished product of the film itself. You're reaching.

Members of the forums tend to have the novel in higher regard than the others, but it's really not as far as canonical ranks go - especially since everything in the current canon is just canon, and there's no "higher-grade" or "lower-grade".

And as I said, the comic went off the script.

I didn't say as much so.. good job?

Yes, you did, and I quoted that part.

Nah, sorry, but there's no guarantee on either end that Dooku could have blocked the attacks. If Yoda really didn't want to kill Dooku and only "stop" him he wouldn't be utilizing attacks that came close to puncturing his chest. This is the part where you stop reaching.

And if Yoda really wanted to kill Dooku, he'd have gone all-out, offensive-style from the very onset of the fight, but he didn't. Again, it's not the Jedi way to kill unless absolutely necessary - which it wasn't.

Again.. good job? I underlined those portions of text to point out that Yoda wasn't holding back to the others. You're essentially jumping into a debate you weren't involved in and countering points I wasn't making.

Attacking and holding back aren't the same, and you mentioned Yoda actively trying to kill Dooku in that same sentence. That's what I was referring to.

Moreover, "offering cunning counters" to Dooku's assault =/= not holding back.

Nah, sorry, but there's no guarantee on either end that Dooku could have blocked the attacks. If Yoda really didn't want to kill Dooku and only "stop" him he wouldn't be utilizing attacks that came close to puncturing his chest. This is the part where you stop reaching.

Yoda is well aware of how strong Dooku is based on past spars, and he sensed that Dooku only became more powerful since then.

Nobody's reaching anymore than you are. The quote literally only states that had Dooku not amped his strength, Yoda's blows would've continued on. Yoda is very much aware of how strong Dooku is and is similarly aware of the latter's capacity to repel blows based on the presumably numerous times they've sparred together.

This doesn't suggest it's lethal intent anymore than it suggests Yoda wanting to tire Dooku out more quickly. I'm sure you're going to say it doesn't sound reasonable, but on the basis of their past experience with fighting one another, and the fact that Yoda has no reason to kill and exemplifies Jedi morals (which would dictate that he doesn't kill unless he's forced to), I don't think it's reaching at all. Agree to disagree, then.

The line where Yoda tries to drive his saber through Dooku is enough, other than that it's implicit from how Yoda is fighting in the film. Moving past that, though, it doesn't even matter, because what you keep failing to grasp is that Yoda wouldn't need to kill Dooku in order to stomp him. If stomping Dooku in any fashion was the intent of the film it would have happened. You don't even have an argument.

I've corrected myself regarding the stomp issue so that I'm only saying it's feasible, on the basis of at more than one source illustrating that.

Anyway, as I said, my point is that Yoda was holding back.

Or... perhaps Yoda has overcome the weaknesses of Ataru? It's a form suited for fighting lone opponents and does very poorly against multiple foes and yet Yoda has no issue in doing so, and on top of that he's a master of every lightsaber form, so again, you're reaching. Yoda remaining stationary while defending only suggests that he's great defensively, not that he can stomp Dooku.

If Yoda's mastery of Ataru is such that he can overcome its weaknesses, then his ability to use its strengths would also only be heightened. Also, forgive me for asking this, but what's the source for Yoda mastering every form, again? I can't seem to find it anywhere on the internet (KMC, CV or SWTOR forums alike), and Wookieepedia mentions it twice but it's unsourced in both instances.

So no, I'm not reaching, and you can stop saying that too.

I corrected myself on the leeway point. You've quoted me and my argument out of context at least four times in one post now, and I'm questioning whether or not to keep taking you seriously because of it. You've just come in and veered the debate completely off-topic for apparently no reason.

Forgive me if my intent wasn't as obvious as it could've been, but I mostly trying to attack the notion that Yoda wasn't holding back.

Just to make it clear now - I've corrected myself on the stomping point. All I'm arguing now is that it's at least a feasible notion worth giving thought to - and that Yoda was indeed holding back in their fight - or at least not going all-out.

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Anakin is not on Yoda's level.

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Yoda stomps. He stalemated Sidious, that makes him and Sidius the strongest force users in the star wars cinematic universe.

And Anakin beating Dooku was a setup. Sidious either helped Anakin or told Dooku to throw the fight, which is likely why he seems so shocked when he tells Anakin to kill him. There's no way Anakin could legit beat Dooku when Dooku owned him and Obi Wan so hard a few months/years? prior and just owned Obi Wan again, who later owns Anakin.

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@shootingnova:

You mean he's out to kill because he attacked, a connection you still haven't established?

...what? The fact you try to belittle my reading comprehension later in your post but manage to spew this at the same time is hilarious.

You said Yoda wasn't trying to go after even a non-lethal means of defeating Dooku - I said yes, if you ignore the film and official novel. What you've said above makes quite literally no sense and has nothing to do with the point. I'm raising you one chromosome for this one, Nova.

Anyway, it refers to the strength of Yoda's blows. I think Yoda, having sparred with Dooku before, would be well-aware that the latter would be using the Force to back his blocks, as with any other Force-user vs Force-user scenario.

------

Yoda is well aware of how strong Dooku is based on past spars, and he sensed that Dooku only became more powerful since then.

Nobody's reaching anymore than you are. The quote literally only states that had Dooku not amped his strength, Yoda's blows would've continued on. Yoda is very much aware of how strong Dooku is and is similarly aware of the latter's capacity to repel blows based on the presumably numerous times they've sparred together.

Sure he might be aware that Dooku could have blocked successfully, but that doesn't change the fact he used the attack in the first place. If Yoda wasn't trying to risk killing/injuring Dooku he wouldn't be including such assaults in his offensive, case closed. Until you produce a source telling us that Yoda was holding back on his offensive against Dooku then this quote crumbles your entire argument.

This doesn't suggest it's lethal intent anymore than it suggests Yoda wanting to tire Dooku out more quickly. I'm sure you're going to say it doesn't sound reasonable, but on the basis of their past experience with fighting one another, and the fact that Yoda has no reason to kill and exemplifies Jedi morals (which would dictate that he doesn't kill unless he's forced to).

If Yoda wanted to tire Dooku out he would do just that; he would wear him out by smashing against his blade repeatedly. That doesn't require the lethal intent Yoda put into the attack I quoted. So, yeah, you are reaching, and it's baffling at this point.

Dooku gets disarmed in both the comic and... [the script]

But doesn't in the film (which if of the highest importance), it's partially canonized novelisation, and some of the other supplementary sources like the Junior novel.

In favor of the comic and the original script, sure. Also, the comic followed the original script of the film. The part with Dooku getting Kenobi's lightsaber was actually filmed, they just cut it out.

I'm not invalidating anything, either. If you had basic comprehension skills, you would've understood what this meant:

not to say, of course, that it's an unreliable source, since both the graphic novel and junior novel have been unique in their presentations of some fights before, and the scripts have been changed before).

If you aren't, then you don't have an argument.

Nova, please, get off your high horse bro. If we want to start character-assassinating with this "basic comprehension" bullshit then we can talk about all the insecurities in your debating that you've revealed to me and others in confidence, or even just talk about the fact that you've admitted in public threads that you intentionally stretch in debates even if you don't believe in your own argument. For someone of such high reputation you amount to nothing more than someone who gets by on belittling others and throwing around walls of text that almost entirely lack in substance, and your ego seems to drive you to get your little say in every debate even if nobody has invited you to butt in. Like I said before; you're simply a chore, and nowadays you entirely lack the debating edge to go with your terrible conduct, so I'm going to stop taking you seriously and I hope everyone else does the same.

I erred in saying "all sources bar the novel", because I neglected the film. Conceded in regards to that - I'm trying to support the notion that it's not unreasonable, at the very least.

You.. neglected the film? Definitely finished taking you seriously now.

I'm hearing this from somebody, who, in their last post, just failed to read/comprehend two of the things I posted.... double standards?

Given that several times in your post you've tried to make out that I didn't read something you posted, when in reality you edited it in while I was replying to you, (such as in the point I'm about to reply to), I'd say my reading comprehension is just fine.

In future, instead of going out of your way to make someone look poorly, just point out that you're editing your post. Makes you come off as less conceited and petty.

Yes, you did, and I quoted that part.

No, Nova, I did not at any point take that piece of text and apply it to the argument that Yoda was trying to kill Dooku. I quoted it for another debate entirely that had nothing to do with you.

Seriously, for someone who spends as much time as you harping on about how I "can't read" you've managed to misinterpret what I'm conveying twice in a row, even after I already explained to you once that I cited that quote for another argument, that had nothing to do with you.

And if Yoda really wanted to kill Dooku, he'd have gone all-out, offensive-style from the very onset of the fight, but he didn't.

.....I have no words for how hilariously inaccurate the notion is that Yoda wasn't fighting offensively, so I'm going to let the film and the novel do the talking for me. If you manage to keep debating the point after this then I'm going to clean this debate up and then never respond to your nonsense again.

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.

Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard.

[...]

Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.

Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade.

A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back.

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If Yoda's mastery of Ataru is such that he can overcome its weaknesses, then his ability to use its strengths would also only be heightened.

...what? That's not how it works. Overcoming a weakness, as in rendering that weakness as non-existent or minimal, isn't at all the same as taking a lightsaber form and increasing it's effectiveness past it's original properties. You can only do the latter by incorporating additional forms into your style. Not that it even matters because, well, the better Yoda is the better for Dooku, so... thanks for trying to help my point, I guess?

Also, forgive me for asking this, but what's the source for Yoda mastering every form, again? I can't seem to find it anywhere on the internet (KMC, CV or SWTOR forums alike), and Wookieepedia mentions it twice but it's unsourced in both instances.

It's Fightsaber, which suggests that in order to understand how Yoda fights you must learn about all seven styles of lightsaber combat. If that isn't enough then I think Dooku having proficiency in every lightsaber form and being able to pass that on to Grievous should suffice.

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

– Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

-

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@darthaznable said:

Anakin is not on Yoda's level.

The Making of Revenge of the Sith
The Making of Revenge of the Sith

"Hayden in this film has moved up to a level nine - he's gone past Obi."

-Nick Gillard, Stunt Choreographer, taken from The Stunts of Episode III Featurette

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#42  Edited By ShootingNova

@i_like_swords: Yeah, there's no point in even responding to this hypocritical ooga booga. You're criticizing me for "belittling others" when my original post had no "belittlements" and you started this with your excessive "reaching" and "reading comprehension" thing, and you're blaming me for doing the same? And by the way, this:

.....I have no words for how hilariously inaccurate the notion is that Yoda wasn't fighting offensively, so I'm going to let the film and the novel do the talking for me. If you manage to keep debating the point after this then I'm going to clean this debate up and then never respond to your nonsense again.

Is literally the definition of "hilariously inaccurate". Did you even read my damn post when you came up with this desperado cop-out? I said from the onset of the fight, which you responded by quoting later sections of the novel:

Yoda reverently drew out his lightsaber, its green blade humming to life.

Dooku gave a crisp salute, igniting his own red blade, but then, formalities over, he leapt at Yoda, a sudden and devastating thrust.

But one that never got close to hitting. With hardly a movement, Yoda turned the blade aside.

Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn’t even seem to move. He didn’t step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku’s blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide.

It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku’s flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.

Not fast enough.

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin’s lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda’s strikes would have driven right through.

Source: Attack of the Clones

You quoted from all the way at the bottom of that quote... which isn't the onset of the fight at all. And in the film, Yoda technically mostly just holds his own ground if you look carefully enough - and after the first bladelock, he goes on the offensive.

Nova, please, get off your high horse bro. If we want to start character-assassinating with this "basic comprehension" bullshit

You started the reading comprehension insults, bro. Don't stick this crap on me.

then we can talk about all the insecurities in your debating that you've revealed to me and others in confidence, or even just talk about the fact that you've admitted in public threads that you intentionally stretch in debates even if you don't believe in your own argument.

Quoting irrelevant examples from other threads is a pretty hypocritical way to do exactly what you're criticizing me for? I perfectly believe in my argument here, bro. Trying to undermine people's confidence on the basis of their insecurities as shown in other threads just shows how much of a pitiful desperado you are. This wouldn't have even happened in this thread if it hadn't been for your sour cream mouth as of post #35.

For someone of such high reputation you amount to nothing more than someone who gets by on belittling others

This coming after you've given me the McReacher special x10, Straw-grasping deluxe, and started insulting my reading is divine. The only belittling came after your wanton slighting in the second post. Prior to that, my responses were almost entirely direct-to-the-point without any mocking chatter (I will concede on the "beyond me" stuff which I was doing in response to you, but that's not belittling). If you kept your trap shut, freshmouth, I wouldn't have "belittled" you at all. At least admit to being the perpetrator in this case.

, and your ego seems to drive you to get your little say in every debate even if nobody has invited you to butt in.

I'm not butting in on damn crap, lol. My original post wasn't even in response to yours - I was just posting my opinion on the fight, and the only time I made any real reference to your post was the whole "Yoda going offensive doesn't mean he's going to kill" stuff. I didn't even tag you into this - you started jumping on me. After all, by your logic, nobody invited you to jump on half of the posters in this thread, either. Or was it another god-sent task?

(And just before you come up with more to attack me with, I'm not considering my 6-hour-old post, I meant my second one. The 6-hour-post was probably unnecessary nose-sticking, I admit.)

Like I said before; you're simply a chore, and nowadays you entirely lack the debating edge to go with your terrible conduct, so I'm going to stop taking you seriously and I hope everyone else does the same.

Why don't you start snapping off the big macho talk and just debate to the point, instead of rambling on about other people's confidence and insecurities and the seriousness that you take other people's posts? Seriously, if I'm a chore and you don't take me seriously, just don't respond to my posts at all, man. You clearly think you're a god-sent archangel send to cleanse the world of the my satanist essays, and I'm just tired of you kicking me around with your condescending demeanor. Nowadays you lack an ounce of respect and I find it hilarious you go around talking about taking me seriously when you present yourself in such elite-class profile here and then troll around on other boards such as KMC to no end.

The only terrible conduct here is the one coming from the same person who initiates the insults like a baby high on sugar and then starts claiming that others "belittle" him after they respond in kind. Likewise, the only chore is having to read the absolutely blinding eyesores that you spout for no apparent reason other than to try and humiliate and bring down other posters here. I can't even post an opinion on this thread with nothing more than casual reference to the debate/thread as a whole (not just your posts) without you trying to ride me down. And your first response was fine, too, but then for some reason you inhaled a kilogram of chicken salt and became the saltiest a$$ in that next reply. And you seriously wonder why SW debating is deteriorating now? Your plan was for both of us to leave the debating to others - something which admittedly we've both broken, but the difference is that I'm trying to play devil's advocate and keep an open mind as much as possible, as opposed to you thinking the SW boards are your arena now and you trying to dominate any thread you pick. My responses to threads are often just disagreements with a particular post, which, admittedly, I usually can't keep to myself (perhaps it's because of my ego).

..what? That's not how it works. Overcoming a weakness, as in rendering that weakness as non-existent or minimal, isn't at all the same as taking a lightsaber form and increasing it's effectiveness past it's original properties. You can only do the latter by incorporating additional forms into your style. Not that it even matters because, well, the better Yoda is the better for Dooku, so... thanks for trying to help my point, I guess?

It's Fightsaber, which suggests that in order to understand how Yoda fights you must learn about all seven styles of lightsaber combat. If that isn't enough then I think Dooku having proficiency in every lightsaber form and being able to pass that on to Grievous should suffice.

Conceded on these. The rest I'll agree-to-disagree, but if it doesn't satisfy your fifteen-ton ego which doesn't have room for other people's interpretations, I'll have to concede those as well.

Given that several times in your post you've tried to make out that I didn't read something you posted, when in reality you edited it in while I was replying to you, (such as in the point I'm about to reply to), I'd say my reading comprehension is just fine.

The snippet about the RotS novel still being reliable may have not been there when you started posting, but the RotS script was always there.

In future, instead of going out of your way to make someone look poorly, just point out that you're editing your post. Makes you come off as less conceited and petty.

I don't need five-star counseling from the person who makes it his priority to undermine me and attack me on everything he possibly can. If you really want me to, I can honestly take back every insult or anything close to an insult I've ever said. Please don't try using the "conceited" card against me, though. As you like to say, "pot calling the kettle black".

Seriously, for someone who spends as much time as you harping on about how I "can't read" you've managed to misinterpret what I'm conveying twice in a row, even after I already explained to you once that I cited that quote for another argument, that had nothing to do with you.

Excuse me, but I didn't "harp" on your inability to read. I said that in this thread only after you started commenting on my ability to read.

And if it's for another argument, I'm just going to take that back so we don't keep bickering over who gets blame for what in this.

So I doubt I'll be responding after this, for obvious reasons. Neither of us are able to stand talking to each other in the belief that we're talking to some brick walls, and I couldn't care less anymore. In the future, though, if I don't tag you, don't bother responding to me and just keep playing your game. I'll avoid responding to you in the future, too.

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Yoda wins every time, but they are decent fights.

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Although Anakin has a lot of potential being the chosen one and everything, at the moment Yoda is on another tier entirely. It isn't a stomp for Yoda, but it won't be much of a challenge.

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@shootingnova:

Yeah, there's no point in even responding to this hypocritical ooga booga. You're criticizing me for "belittling others" when my original post had no "belittlements" and you started this with your excessive "reaching" and "reading comprehension" thing, and you're blaming me for doing the same?

Note that pointing out that your argument is being stretched and that me saying you actively chose not to read something I typed isn't a belittlement of you but rather your argument. Essentially I was saying you can do better than that and we're both aware of it. If that isn't the case and you took "yeah, you're reaching" personally then, that's your issue, not mine.

The first person to bring "reading comprehension" - one's ability to understand something (or in this case my supposed lack of) - was you. If you can't handle the heat, don't be a glass cannon and remain outside of the kitchen at all times.

And by the way, this:

".....I have no words for how hilariously inaccurate the notion is that Yoda wasn't fighting offensively, so I'm going to let the film and the novel do the talking for me. If you manage to keep debating the point after this then I'm going to clean this debate up and then never respond to your nonsense again."

Is literally the definition of "hilariously inaccurate". Did you even read my damn post when you came up with this desperado cop-out? I said from the onset of the fight, which you responded by quoting later sections of the novel:

Desperado cop-out? Lmfao, dude, I posted the film's iteration of the fight wherein Yoda is absolutely moving on the offensive from the onset. And just because Yoda chose to sit on a defensive to ward off Dooku's initial assault in the novel, stated as being a much more ramped up assault than he had used against Anakin and Obi-Wan, doesn't mean he was holding back - it means he was defending himself from an attack and then counter-attacking at a sensible juncture afterwards, and that's what he did. After he was done defending from Dooku he went on to attack him. Nothing outside of the ordinary there at all.

Quoting irrelevant examples from other threads is a pretty hypocritical way to do exactly what you're criticizing me for? I perfectly believe in my argument here, bro. Trying to undermine people's confidence on the basis of their insecurities as shown in other threads just shows how much of a pitiful desperado you are. This wouldn't have even happened in this thread if it hadn't been for your sour cream mouth as of post #35.

And so the hypocrite accuses another of being hypocrite..

That's not really how it works, Nova. As we established earlier; you opened the initial doors for making this about us as people rather than debaters by bringing my reading comprehension into question. That I have much better ammunition to use against you doesn't make me a hypocrite, it makes you foolish for having it backfire on you.

Having said that I'm not going back and forth with you on who's got better morals, because I really don't care, lol. You've nary a leg to stand on as far as the debate is concerned and that's enough for me.

This coming after you've given me the McReacher special x10, Straw-grasping deluxe, and started insulting my reading is divine.

The only belittling came after your wanton slighting in the second post.

If you kept your trap shut, freshmouth, I wouldn't have "belittled" you at all.

Why don't you start snapping off the big macho talk

You clearly think you're a god-sent archangel send to cleanse the world of the my satanist essays

like a baby high on sugar

you inhaled a kilogram of chicken salt

Do you realize how hilarious your posts are at this point?

I'm not butting in on damn crap, lol. My original post wasn't even in response to yours - I was just posting my opinion on the fight, and the only time I made any real reference to your post was the whole "Yoda going offensive doesn't mean he's going to kill" stuff. I didn't even tag you into this - you started jumping on me.

Just because you didn't tag me, it doesn't mean you weren't butting in. You referenced and countered specific points from my post I was hashing out with other people and, lo and behold, it becomes another Nova thread.

I find it hilarious you go around talking about taking me seriously when you present yourself in such elite-class profile here and then troll around on other boards such as KMC to no end.

For one, nah, I don't think I'm anything special. Most anyway who has debated me on this board outside of you, DC, Wollf, PLAYA1 or whoever else, will attest that I can concede and appreciate other points of view and also that I'm not infallible.

Secondly, well, yeah. KMC is a pigsty. I'm not exactly going to post there for anything other than shits and gigs am I?

but the difference is that I'm trying to play devil's advocate and keep an open mind as much as possible, as opposed to you thinking the SW boards are your arena now and you trying to dominate every thread you go in.

Open mind... coming from the guy who in the past has deliberately refused to concede and admitted to stretching out his debates past their expiry debate? And please don't talk to me about trying "dominate" every thread. You do remember the days of Silver wherein he would "dominate" entire threads, you and others would blindly agree with everything he says, right? And you haven't yet realized that after Silver left you followed suit to a T? It's evident from this thread alone where you couldn't stop yourself from butting into another debate of mine that you're more concerned with getting your word in than anyone else. You're free to do so having said that but don't pretend like you're one for taking a backseat.

So I doubt I'll be responding after this, for obvious reasons. Neither of us are able to stand talking to each other in the belief that we're talking to some brick walls, and I couldn't care less anymore. In the future, though, if I don't tag you, don't bother responding to me and just keep playing your game. I'll avoid responding to you in the future, too.

The only time I'll respond to you is if I see referencing and countering points of mine. I know you might like to but when I'm talking to someone I tag them before I do so. You'd do better to just not reference my posts in the future and I'll do the same.

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@darthaznable said:

Yoda's feats say otherwise.

Anakin is overhyped.

Nah, they don't. They performed pretty similarly against Dooku in an overall sense. Well, technically, Anakin defeated Dooku faster than Yoda and caused him more damage, but you get the point.

...right, yeah, Anakin's totally been having a run of it in this thread hasn't he?

Yoda, handily.

Sorry lad but Count Dooku is pretty much the best Anakin can handle. Yoda is simply in another tier altogether in terms of power, skill, and definitely speed.

Wat. Yoda with ease.

Yoda easily

Lol stomps , yoda

How the fock is yoda not winning this handily. Anakin was comparable to dooku at best till he got pissed. Yoda is stronger, faster, more powerful. No way this will be a tough fight for him.

Considering how Anakin and Dooku are pretty comparable

Yoda! Anakin couldn't handle obi wan... don't see how he can handle yoda

Although Anakin has a lot of potential being the chosen one and everything, at the moment Yoda is on another tier entirely. It isn't a stomp for Yoda, but it won't be much of a challenge.

I'm not sure which posts I like better; the one's saying that Yoda is another tier entirely despite the fact direct creator commentary has disagreed with the notion, or the one's saying that Anakin is around or below Dooku's level after having seen him destroy Dooku in the film alone.

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....well, umm...

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I think @shootingnova has covered every reason Yoda wins, credit where it's due.

I wouldn't say he stomps, but all things considered Yoda should win this without fully exerting himself.