• 64 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for deactivated-5c5f0d1034d42
#51 Edited by deactivated-5c5f0d1034d42 (54 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering that anakin in this enhanced state menaged to nearly crush dooku, who is only marginally below Vader ,he should win this quite decisively.

“The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.”

-revenge of the Sith novel

Avatar image for deactivated-5cae4704c27f5
#52 Edited by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for lordofthelight
#53 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

There is nothing laughable about Vader beating Dooku. Quite to the contrary, it is the most likely outcome. Vader is atleast significantly more powerful and while Dooku has better agility and speed, Vader more than compensates in other areas like skill.

Obviously Vader isn't comparable to Sidious, but let's not put him below Dooku of all guys lol

Avatar image for lordofthelight
#54 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

Any actual evidence that comes anywhere near showing Vader on Mustafar being "much" weaker than KF Vader would be very appreciated.

How about the multiple quotes which say that Anakin lost the duel due to his mental hinderances? It's ascribed as the primary reason for his defeat.

I can understand that he is not at his best, but nothing to my knowledge indicates any vast disparity.

See above. His mental issues are attributed as the reason he lost which should indicate that they were indeed pretty significant. Especially since he's credited as a 9 whereas Obi Wan was an 8 and the gap between tiers is comparable to The Ritcher Scale.

Meanwhile, several sources indicate the opposite.

I assume you're talking about the sources which list Anakin as a 9 and the fact that he's stated to be stronger than KF Vader. The problem with these is Anakin may have that power but that doesn't mean he can use it properly or focus it which of course was the primary reason he lost.

Let's have a little debate here, it's been a long time since I actually gave any thought to this issue, if you want to obviously

I'm down to debate this although I'll probably only reply a couple of times as I'm lazy when it comes to responses.

Could you give all these pieces of evidence? If they are what you say they are, then none of them mean what you are trying to imply. But there may be evidence I am not aware of so yeah, actually giving them here would be useful.

Actually, I am talking about KF Vader>Zonakin>Mustafar Vader>Base Anakin which is all but universally supported, but that is for later

Avatar image for deactivated-5c5f0d1034d42
#55 Posted by deactivated-5c5f0d1034d42 (54 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: i’m Not so sure , but it is certainly possible.

Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
#56 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

Sorry man I completely forgot about this lol.

Could you give all these pieces of evidence? If they are what you say they are, then none of them mean what you are trying to imply. But there may be evidence I am not aware of so yeah, actually giving them here would be useful.

None of them are anything you haven't already seen but here we go:

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

&

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."

Anakin is noted to not know the mental side which is attributed as the reason he lost to Kenobi. He has the power but he doesn't know how to utilise it properly so when he's put in a bad mental state he can't really fight on the same level as Yoda and Sidous.

He's below Kenobi mentally despite being above him physically and seeing as both are equally important it makes sense that his physical superiority would be balanced out by his mental inferiority.

Actually, I am talking about KF Vader>Zonakin>Mustafar Vader>Base Anakin which is all but universally supported, but that is for later.

More or less on the same lines except I have KF Vader>Zonakin>Mustafar Vader=Base Anakin instead.

Avatar image for lordofthelight
#57 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3 said:

@lordofthelight:

Sorry man I completely forgot about this lol.

Could you give all these pieces of evidence? If they are what you say they are, then none of them mean what you are trying to imply. But there may be evidence I am not aware of so yeah, actually giving them here would be useful.

None of them are anything you haven't already seen but here we go:

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

&

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."

Anakin is noted to not know the mental side which is attributed as the reason he lost to Kenobi. He has the power but he doesn't know how to utilise it properly so when he's put in a bad mental state he can't really fight on the same level as Yoda and Sidous.

He's below Kenobi mentally despite being above him physically and seeing as both are equally important it makes sense that his physical superiority would be balanced out by his mental inferiority.

Actually, I am talking about KF Vader>Zonakin>Mustafar Vader>Base Anakin which is all but universally supported, but that is for later.

More or less on the same lines except I have KF Vader>Zonakin>Mustafar Vader=Base Anakin instead.

Gillard also says that because Anakin hasn't gone to level 9 in the right way, it is dangerous but it is still a level 9. It is still something that has to be dealt with.

Obviously, despite his mental issues, Anakin is still a level 9 in combat on Mustafar, albeit, maybe the lowest 9 possible.

Again, those quotes by Gillard do not prove Anakin was weakened in combat or hindered in his ability to call on the force. They just prove why Obi Wan was able to beat him, i.e. capitalizing on his overconfidence or arrogance, which were in fact, legitimate weaknesses for him and have been stated to be the only reasons Anakin lost in a number of sources that refer to this battle. You know, they are also weaknesses, legitimate ones too. You can have weaknesses that are not hindrances to your power, it is not a revolutionary idea at all here.

Now let's go to the duel itself. Do you really think Lucas and Gillard would promote Anakin to a tier 9 in the movie and have him as tier 8 in the final duel in terms of actualized combat ability? The duel which per Gillard is by far the longest duel in the movies? The duel for which they specifically spent months just to get it right? The duel termed by the associate producer as "the greatest Jedi lightsaber duel ever"? The duel which Gillard took it much more seriously than the duel in The Phantom Menace? The fact that other than this duel, Anakin has only 15 seconds in which to show his "tier 9" level combat?

You can likely understand, why bother promoting Anakin to tier 9 "in the movie", when there is only 15 seconds to show for it lol? But on the other hand, for the 10 minutes of actual fighting, you have him as a level 8 in actualized combat?

Does this make the slightest bit of sense to you? Would you as a producer put in your notes that Anakin is a level 9 in the movie, describe in interviews that Anakin has reached level 9, have your stunt coordinator comment that Anakin is a level 9, but actually for more than 95% of the movie where the fighting occurs by Anakin you have him as a level 8 in actualized combat? That too in the most anticipated, most liked, most taken seriously, and by far the longest duel in the entire Star Wars saga in its entirety?

To me, that is insane. By far the most disappointing however, is the absolute lack of any conclusive evidence at all to show that he was "massively hindered" other than quotes by Gillard that are clearly alluding to something else, and that the man himself has cleared up that despite the fact that it is dangerous because Anakin hasn't done it the right way, it is still a level 9 and still something to be dealt with. Note that I am actually analyzing this from an OOU perspective, and even there, this notion seems insane. IU, I have yet to see even one convincing quote, meanwhile literally almost every source supports my viewpoint that Anakin wasn't massively hindered in one way or the other.

This doesn't reflect on you as a debater though. In truth, I haven't seen one convincing case for this notion throughout comicvine or KMC throughout the time I have been in those forums. It just seems like something everybody just brushes up on, sees a few half baked quotes and just agrees with it. We all know why.

We likely are in agreement, except, Obi Wan himself stated clearly that Mustafar Vader was better than the version of Anakin that fought alongside him against Dooku, so Mustafar Vader=Base Anakin is just outright wrong.

Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
#58 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
#59 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for kilius
#60 Posted by Kilius (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

Just to add to LotL's case. The quote: "Anakin had still been between both worlds and vulnerable" doesn't necessary apply exclusively to Mustafar Vader, it can easy be attributed to KF Vader as well. In Sidious's viewpoint Anakin had yet to fully embrace the Dark Side, hence him being stuck between both worlds. In the same novel DL:RODV When Vader reflects, we see that he had to rationalize his actions during Operation Knightfall. Anakin is always conflicted at this stage though it is clear he is much more powerful as Vader than Anakin.

Some argue that "Zonakin" would be the most powerful DS version of Anakin, as he would have the clearest mind and no reluctance to kill a hated enemy like Dooku. The thing is though, Anakin did regret killing Dooku in cold blood, just like he regretted killing the Tusken Raiders, just like he regretted having to kill the younglings, and just like he regretted his actions while reflecting on Mustafar. Anakin's guilt and self-pity only happens after the deed is said and done, then he rationalizes and does it again. When he's in his bloodlust all his compassion and pity go right out the window and as Sidious himself said the dark side gives Anakin focus. That he might feel like shit afterwards has no bearing on his combat capabilities.

As for the Force push stalemate(which was actually Kenobi Force pushing and Anakin blocking, as per the script, but whatever) there's a very simple explanation: you don't need to be equally powerful to counter a Force push. Think about it, Yoda is obviously more powerful than Dooku, yet he in AotC he never once used a Force push to incapacitate him. Why not? Simple the Count despite not being as powerful probably could block it(I mean that would be the simplest way to subdue Dooku; just Force push him into a wall, restrain his arms, or steal his lightsabers) . And we already have Kas'im and Bane, the former of the two not being close in power to Bane blocking his temple buster wave. So yeah Kenobi handling Anakin's Force push molds just fine with Anakin being more powerful.

Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
#61 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

Gillard also says that because Anakin hasn't gone to level 9 in the right way, it is dangerous but it is still a level 9. It is still something that has to be dealt with.

Yeah sure Anakin is a 9 and it's something that has to be dealt with but that doesn't mean that Anakin can use his powers correctly at all.

Obviously, despite his mental issues, Anakin is still a level 9 in combat on Mustafar, albeit, maybe the lowest 9 possible.

Yeah he's a level 9 physically on Mustafar although Gillard makes specific note of how his mental state is also incredibly important and that while he's gonna beyond Obi Wan physically he loses the duel because he's not a level 9 mentally and he's actually below Obi Wan in that area. Nothing from Gillard suggests Anakin is a 9 overall just physically.

Again, those quotes by Gillard do not prove Anakin was weakened in combat or hindered in his ability to call on the force. They just prove why Obi Wan was able to beat him, i.e. capitalizing on his overconfidence or arrogance, which were in fact, legitimate weaknesses for him and have been stated to be the only reasons Anakin lost in a number of sources that refer to this battle. You know, they are also weaknesses, legitimate ones too. You can have weaknesses that are not hindrances to your power, it is not a revolutionary idea at all here.

Gillard makes note that Anakin isn't mentally a tier 9 and that the mental battle is just as important as the physical battle which obviously wouldn't be the case if Anakin's only mental problems are arrogance. Anakin's arrogance doesn't stop him from absolutely battering Kenobi which is what a tier 9 would do to a tier 8. I can't see another plausible interpretation to these quotes but don't worry I have others.

First off we have Vader - The Ultimate Guide noting “The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision” which shows that Anakin was indeed overwhelmed by his rage which is supported by other examples like his slaughter of the Sand People on Tatooine On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter, but here now, within this ship, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.” This is one of the most relevant points about Anakin's character and ignoring it is honeslty incredibly disengenuous.

While it's not exactly the same with other characters I'd like to bring up an example in Galen during The Force Unleashed 2. When Galen confronts Darth Vader at the end of TFU 2 the latter fights on relatively even terms with the former for virtually the whole duel up until he hurts Juno. Galen is then sent into a mindless rage attacking the Dark Lord "with both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief" but is noted to have lost focus by the Prima Guide and gets subsequently ragdolled. Rage can be hindering and overwhelm Force Users in certain scenarios with a similair example being Obi Wan vs Darth ,aul druing TCW S4 with Kenobi being off balanced by rage and Maul taking advantage of it. So no I don't think it was just arrogance on Anakin's part nor do I think we should just ignore his hinderances because of some vague quotes which say he was a 9 physically and ignore the part afterwards where Gillard notes that the mental battle is just as important as the physical. Furthermore I really can't see a tier 9 getting stalemated by Kenobi with the latter tagging him repeatedly despite being able to batter Dooku in around 15 seconds who is superior to Kenobi. Please provide me with an alternative explanation.

Now let's go to the duel itself. Do you really think Lucas and Gillard would promote Anakin to a tier 9 in the movie and have him as tier 8 in the final duel in terms of actualized combat ability? The duel which per Gillard is by far the longest duel in the movies? The duel for which they specifically spent months just to get it right? The duel termed by the associate producer as "the greatest Jedi lightsaber duel ever"? The duel which Gillard took it much more seriously than the duel in The Phantom Menace? The fact that other than this duel, Anakin has only 15 seconds in which to show his "tier 9" level combat?

Have you ever considered the fact that it's maybe because it's thematically relevant to Anakin's character? And that maybe this duel is meant to give us "an idea about these characters" (Gillard's words not mine). The entire point of the duel is to give us an idea about Anakin and Kenobi and about how while Anakin has all the power he lacks the discipline of Kenobi.

You can likely understand, why bother promoting Anakin to tier 9 "in the movie", when there is only 15 seconds to show for it lol? But on the other hand, for the 10 minutes of actual fighting, you have him as a level 8 in actualized combat?

See above.

Does this make the slightest bit of sense to you? Would you as a producer put in your notes that Anakin is a level 9 in the movie, describe in interviews that Anakin has reached level 9, have your stunt coordinator comment that Anakin is a level 9, but actually for more than 95% of the movie where the fighting occurs by Anakin you have him as a level 8 in actualized combat? That too in the most anticipated, most liked, most taken seriously, and by far the longest duel in the entire Star Wars saga in its entirety?

Yeah because contrary to popular belief the Prequels actualy give a shit about character development.

To me, that is insane. By far the most disappointing however, is the absolute lack of any conclusive evidence at all to show that he was "massively hindered" other than quotes by Gillard that are clearly alluding to something else, and that the man himself has cleared up that despite the fact that it is dangerous because Anakin hasn't done it the right way, it is still a level 9 and still something to be dealt with. Note that I am actually analyzing this from an OOU perspective, and even there, this notion seems insane. IU, I have yet to see even one convincing quote, meanwhile literally almost every source supports my viewpoint that Anakin wasn't massively hindered in one way or the other.

I mean I gave you more quotes and I thought it seemed pretty obvious while watching the movie that Anakin is majorly unbalanced mentally and very clearly allowed his rage to consume him.

This doesn't reflect on you as a debater though. In truth, I haven't seen one convincing case for this notion throughout comicvine or KMC throughout the time I have been in those forums. It just seems like something everybody just brushes up on, sees a few half baked quotes and just agrees with it. We all know why.

I mean in truth I will admit I go along with it in large part due to there needing to be some justification for Anakin losing to Kenobi. I can't really see an alternative interpretation and it seems the most obvious conclusion based on all the evidence.

We likely are in agreement, except, Obi Wan himself stated clearly that Mustafar Vader was better than the version of Anakin that fought alongside him against Dooku, so Mustafar Vader=Base Anakin is just outright wrong.

I agree I was slightly exaggerating placing Anakin on par with his base Jedi self but my points still stand.

Avatar image for lordofthelight
#62 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3

Yeah, you and I agree on most things. I am glad you agree that Mustafar Vader>Anakin before his Zonakin version

The way I see it, this is the main issue you and most people have

Anakin's arrogance doesn't stop him from absolutely battering Kenobi which is what a tier 9 would do to a tier 8.

Not entirely right

Off the top of my head, Mace Windu is a tier 8. Sidious is a tier 9. Who achieved victory in their lightsaber duel?

Okay, Mace is a tier 8 bordering on a tier 9, but the point should become clear. There is a massive gap in between the levels themselves as Gillard stated. Meaning a low tier 8 is going to get stomped by a high tier 8. A high tier 8 can compete with a tier 9 as the case of Mace showed in his battle.

The advantage is even more in favor of the tier 8 in the case of Kenobi given their intimate familiarity with each other's styles making their ability to compete with each other even more likely. So, no, I can easily see Kenobi competing with a tier 9 given the significant advantage he got in their battle.

Even more likely, because Obi Wan demolished Grevious in a much more convincing manner than Mace did( yes I am well aware that their duel was short but even so) this is despite Grevious using only two blades and being hindered by the magnetism in the train on Coruscant. Yeah Obi Wan benefited from a style more suited to take down Grevious but still. Styles and forms don't matter when your opponent outclasses you vastly, and this is a theme throughout Star Wars

The fact that they made a difference there has a simple explanation-Mace doesn't vastly outclass Obi Wan the latter of which has a good chance of being a high tier 9

The prima guide confirms Obi Wan continuously grew throughout ROTS( I'll likely make a small blog on the thing soon) so his stomping of Grevious in that way makes sense( especially since you see, at least 3 sources confirm that Grevious was no match for Obi Wan in their battle) all things considered.

More examples include enraged TPM Kenobi a tier 7 fighting as an equal to Maul, a tier 8 for most of their battle. So, I find your incredulity a bit extreme, you see, considering the tier system, and Kenobi's significant advantage in their duel.

For the record, Dooku's force reserves were all but gone by the time Anakin entered the Zone and started stomping him. So under normal circumstances he would last much more than 15 seconds only

The same doesn't apply to Anakin obviously since he became stronger throughout their fight because of his increasing anger and rage

Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
#63 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

Yeah, you and I agree on most things. I am glad you agree that Mustafar Vader>Anakin before his Zonakin version

The way I see it, this is the main issue you and most people have

Glad to hear you agree on most of my points. Now onto some of the things I take issue with.

Not entirely right

Eh let's see what you've got.

Off the top of my head, Mace Windu is a tier 8. Sidious is a tier 9. Who achieved victory in their lightsaber duel?

Mace was actually originally stated to be a 9 iirc but then Gillard clarified he's an 8 bordering on a 9. I always took this to be a reference to Mace's amp (not everyone agrees that Mace was amped but it's not a discussion I particularly care to get into right now).

The advantage is even more in favor of the tier 8 in the case of Kenobi given their intimate familiarity with each other's styles making their ability to compete with each other even more likely. So, no, I can easily see Kenobi competing with a tier 9 given the significant advantage he got in their battle.

That advantage works both ways. Granted it probably favours Kenobi more given his fighting style but it's not as if it's a huge factor given Anakin also does somewhat benefit from it.

Even more likely, because Obi Wan demolished Grevious in a much more convincing manner than Mace did( yes I am well aware that their duel was short but even so) this is despite Grevious using only two blades and being hindered by the magnetism in the train on Coruscant. Yeah Obi Wan benefited from a style more suited to take down Grevious but still. Styles and forms don't matter when your opponent outclasses you vastly, and this is a theme throughout Star Wars

Yeah sure but I could also bring up the fact file quote which says Grievous was also hindered against Kenobi in which case this comparison is rendered faulty. Regardless iirc Grievous overloaded Obi Wan's defence (been a while since I read the novel).

The fact that they made a difference there has a simple explanation-Mace doesn't vastly outclass Obi Wan the latter of which has a good chance of being a high tier 9

I mean I believe in the whole Mace was amped argument but once again it's not a discussion I particularly care to get in to.

The prima guide confirms Obi Wan continuously grew throughout ROTS( I'll likely make a small blog on the thing soon) so his stomping of Grevious in that way makes sense( especially since you see, at least 3 sources confirm that Grevious was no match for Obi Wan in their battle) all things considered.

Care to tag me for the blog? Also regardless you are aware no match is not synonymous with a stomp The word "match" means "a person or thing that is equal to another in quality or strength" so any source which says Grievous was "no match" for Obi Wan would simply say he's not his equal which is true enough given he lost but it doesn't tell us anything about the disparity between the two.

More examples include enraged TPM Kenobi a tier 7 fighting as an equal to Maul, a tier 8 for most of their battle. So, I find your incredulity a bit extreme, you see, considering the tier system, and Kenobi's significant advantage in their duel.

Source for Enraged TPM Kenobi being a 7?

For the record, Dooku's force reserves were all but gone by the time Anakin entered the Zone and started stomping him. So under normal circumstances he would last much more than 15 seconds only

1. Dooku actually recovered his reserves:

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

2. Dooku being a "joke" in comparison to Anakin doesn't exactly paint a picture of The Count being able to compete with Anakin like Kenobi did on Mustafar. And even if we did discount the above statement I could easily bring up the previous part of the fight where Anakin beat all of Dooku's reserves out of him in like 20 seconds and this was a version of Anakin who hadn't hit peak (note that in that part of the fight Dooku was merely tired not exhausted iirc).

Avatar image for kilius
#64 Edited by Kilius (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

If you guys read the script, it's very clear Anakin was the one winning that fight:

ANAKIN: You will try.

ANAKIN ignites his lightsaber.

ANAKIN lashes out at OBI-WAN, and they begin a ferocious sword fight. ANAKIN throws CONTAINERS at OBI-WAN using the Force.

They work their way off the landing platform and into the main entry hallway. ANAKIN kicks OBI-WAN, and OBI-WAN drops to a lower level.

ARTOO BEEPS his concern and rushes to the unconscious PADME's aid.

View screens EXPLODE around ANAKIN and OBI-WAN as they work their way into the Control Room. The fighting is intense. OBI-WAN is on the defensive as he jumps up on the table view screen in the center of the room.

ANAKIN: Don't make me destroy you, Master. You're no match for the dark side.

OBI-WAN: I've heard that before, Anakin . . . but I never thought I'd hear it from you.

ANAKIN forces OBI-WAN back into the Conference Room where the quarters are much closer.

(Kenobi is specifically noted to have been forced back, which debunks any counterclaim that he was on the defensive by choice. Anakin again is the one with the advantage here.)

Sparks fly everywhere. ANAKIN jumps onto the conference table. OBI-WAN slides across the table, knocking ANAKIN over. OBI-WAN grabs ANAKIN’s lightsaber as he falls. OBI-WAN uses the Force to summon his dropped lightsaber. ANAKIN does the same.

Kenobi does gain some ground here, but this doesn't mean he was an overall equal. ESB Luke scored hits and pressed Vader at times, Jinn pressed Maul at times, AotC Kenobi/AotC Anakin pressed Dooku briefly, and so on.

The battle intensifies.

OBI-WAN: (continuing) The flaw of power is arrogance.

OBI-WAN stands looking at his former apprentice for a moment.

ANAKIN: You hesitate . . . the flaw of compassion.

OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN.

Both combatants are blasted backwards onto the control panels.

The infamous Force push stalemate is actually Kenobi pushing and Anakin blocking. Anakin blocks Kenobi's Force push and as we saw in the movie Kenobi just keeps adding more and more power until Anakin's defense overloads and sends them both flying. It doesn't mean they are equal in applicable power. And as stated before there is precedent for less powerful Force users, such as Kas'im countering TK from a more powerful opponent.

They regain their footing and the battle continues. ANAKIN kicks OBI-WAN away.

They battle around the room, and eventually the door to the exterior is knocked open. They continue battling out onto the balcony.

ANAKIN forces OBI-WAN down a narrow balcony outside the Control Room.He rips objects off the wall and throws them at OBI-WAN as he pushes him further and further along the walkway.

The balcony ends, and OBI-WAN is trapped. He looks over the balcony and into a river of lava.

ANAKIN cuts apiece of the balcony railing off, along with a control panel.

ALARMS SOUND, and a protective ray shield around the superstructure disappears. It tumbles into the molten abyss, disappearing in a puff of smoke. A small pipe connects the Control Center to the Main Collection Plant. OBI-WAN has no choice but to tightrope-walk out across the lava river while fighting ANAKIN.

(Contrary to the opinions of those who state that Kenobi was deliberately on the defensive and leading Anakin to an area of his choosing, the script makes it pretty clear that Kenobi was forced to give ground and literally walk the tightrope.)

Kenobi just held out against a superior duelist through defense until he was able to exploit an opportunistic environmental advantage and exploit Anakin's arrogance. He landed some hits but again there are plenty of examples of lesser duelist throughout the lore scoring hits on there betters. Doesn't change the fact that Anakin pushed a Soresu master's defenses to the brink and was basically controlling the fight 90% of the time.