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#1 Edited by Easternwind (4490 posts) - - Show Bio

Apparently this has not been done before so..

Round 1

Anakin/Vader ROTS vs Mace Windu

Round 2

Anakin/Vader with a clear mind vs Mace Windu

Round 2

Anakin/Vader Amalgam vs Mace Windu

  • Vader Mind, Anakin's Body
No Caption Provided

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#2 Edited by Easternwind (4490 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin should win in all unless he is hindered, in which case Mace takes a close win.

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#4 Edited by Easternwind (4490 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

Anakin should win in all unless he is hindered, in which case Mace takes a close win.

Yeah I thought it might lean to him.

How many you think mace/anakin would take out of 10 in a non hindered fight? Like how close would it bee

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#5 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@easternwind: Not sure. Probably 8/10 for Anakin. He is vastly more powerful, as well as considerably faster and stronger and probably close enough to Windu in skill that the edge would be negligible and his edge in other areas more than suffice to circumvent that minimal edge.

Regardless, his emotions may trouble him and turn it into a better fight or perhaps a slim victory for Windu, which is why he may win two rounds. In other circumstances, Anakin could be the beneficiary of his emotions, feeding his darker usages of the Force, and allowing him to ragdoll Mace in that way, or overwhelm him in a fight. That shouldn't be common enough to have an impact on the fight, though.

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#6 Edited by Easternwind (4490 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@easternwind: Not sure. Probably 8/10 for Anakin. He is vastly more powerful, as well as considerably faster and stronger and probably close enough to Windu in skill that the edge would be negligible and his edge in other areas more than suffice to circumvent that minimal edge.

Regardless, his emotions may trouble him and turn it into a better fight or perhaps a slim victory for Windu, which is why he may win two rounds. In other circumstances, Anakin could be the beneficiary of his emotions, feeding his darker usages of the Force, and allowing him to ragdoll Mace in that way, or overwhelm him in a fight. That shouldn't be common enough to have an impact on the fight, though.

You know your stuff, Could you tell me what else besides Nicks statement Puts Anakins skill on Mace tier?

But yeah I guess you are right, Windu lacks the power and speed feats to keep up

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#7 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@easternwind: His feats. Fighting evenly with Dooku, beating Ventress, sparring evenly with Obi-Wan and being a superior to him, stomping Magnaguards etc.

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#8 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Is ROtS Anakin at his peak only inferior to the likes of Palpatine and Yoda, if we're talking that era?

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#9 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: By era, are you referencing RotS only, or the Rise of the Empire era in general?

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#10 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: In that case, characters like Darth Plagueis and Tenebrous would also be superior, as well as Talzin (and Gethzerion if she was around), presumably, at least on Dathomir, and of course Abeloth and the Ones, but that should go without saying.

Although, of course, both Yoda and Palpatine exceed Anakin.

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#12 Posted by ComicStooge (22062 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Thanks for the info.

And if we're talking specifically RotS, then Anakin's 3rd (discounting amped Mace) on the list?

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#13 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by Easternwind (4490 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@easternwind: His feats. Fighting evenly with Dooku, beating Ventress, sparring evenly with Obi-Wan and being a superior to him, stomping Magnaguards etc.

I mean, Didnt he have form and context advantage on Dooku?

How well did mace do vs Ventress? If he was on the same advantage level as anakinl that says something.

Obi wan is under mace tier no?, I dont know if being able to beat Obi wan puts him a tier up.

Ventress and Nick Galards statement seems like the best evidence, thanks , Ill look into it myself some more. Its always been hard for me to pin his skill level down

Not arguing with you by the way , Just trying to get a feel for his feats, I think ill re read the respect thread.

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#15 Posted by Easternwind (4490 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@easternwind:

1. So? Dooku is one of the single best duelists in the history of the Order, and AotC Anakin could challenge him by virtue of skill alone. RotS Anakin, who is significantly superior to AotC Anakin in skill, is only marginally inferior to Dooku, which is a remarkable ranking given how Dooku is always portrayed as a consummate duelist. Djem So's effectiveness against Makashi is commonly exaggerated - it would only tax Dooku's stamina, not skill, and therefore Dooku would tire more quickly, but his own combative skill would be just as much as it were against another other duelist. Therefore, it isn't even entirely unreasonable to submit that Anakin is Dooku and Mace's equal in skill, but obviously that might not be the case and probably isn't.

2. He had the clear advantage, and Ventress fled within a few panels, but sources have also told us that Ventress taxed Mace to his limits - he had to utilize all of his skills in order to beat the Dark Jedi.

3. Obi-Wan is a tier 8, whereas Mace is certainly a tier 9 based on Anakin being a nine himself.

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#17 Edited by Erkan12 (8039 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Windu being second to Yoda is only up to AotC, and AotC Anakin is obviously not winning a majority against Windu. And people know Windu well enough. Windu is vastly overrated on most boards by virtue of misconceptions regarding inconsistent feats; Anakin is the one who is underrated.

Although I'd hardly want to pick a debate, this is not a mismatch, to any mod who notices the flag (if there is one). Windu is more skilful, but Anakin is vastly more powerful and considerably faster and stronger, excluding inconsistent TK feats on Windu's part. Also, George Lucas's quotes only apply to the film-only universe, in which I'd agree Mace could win 10/10. However, Lucas has admitted to being ignorant on the EU, and I was addressing an EU fight, obviously. And for the record, Lucas contradicts himself on a regular basis. He claimed Shaak Ti was on par with the likes of Windu and Obi-Wan, characters whom realistically, film or EU-wise, would stomp her. Regardless, Lucas's power over SW is entirely absent so his comments hardly carry the weight they used to.

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#19 Posted by Easternwind (4490 posts) - - Show Bio

@easternwind:

1. So? Dooku is one of the single best duelists in the history of the Order, and AotC Anakin could challenge him by virtue of skill alone. RotS Anakin, who is significantly superior to AotC Anakin in skill, is only marginally inferior to Dooku, which is a remarkable ranking given how Dooku is always portrayed as a consummate duelist. Djem So's effectiveness against Makashi is commonly exaggerated - it would only tax Dooku's stamina, not skill, and therefore Dooku would tire more quickly, but his own combative skill would be just as much as it were against another other duelist. Therefore, it isn't even entirely unreasonable to submit that Anakin is Dooku and Mace's equal in skill, but obviously that might not be the case and probably isn't.

It makes it much harder for dooku to go blade to blade as well

2. He had the clear advantage, and Ventress fled within a few panels, but sources have also told us that Ventress taxed Mace to his limits - he had to utilize all of his skills in order to beat the Dark Jedi.

So that sounds like a good way to compare

3. Obi-Wan is a tier 8, whereas Mace is certainly a tier 9 based on Anakin being a nine himself.

Ah, Alright yeah I can see it that way, Anakin would beat Obi wan un hindered, so yeah that puts him on mace tier

Thanks

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#20 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@easternwind:

As I said, his skill is not hindered - that has never occurred in a fight. His stamina depletes and therefore he lacks the capacity to continue fighting, which was the disadvantage on his part.

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#21 Edited by Easternwind (4490 posts) - - Show Bio
@shootingnova said:

Windu being second to Yoda is only up to AotC, and AotC Anakin is obviously not winning a majority against Windu. And people know Windu well enough. Windu is vastly overrated on most boards by virtue of misconceptions regarding inconsistent feats; Anakin is the one who is underrated.

Although I'd hardly want to pick a debate, this is not a mismatch, to any mod who notices the flag (if there is one). Windu is more skilful, but Anakin is vastly more powerful and considerably faster and stronger, excluding inconsistent TK feats on Windu's part. Also, George Lucas's quotes only apply to the film-only universe, in which I'd agree Mace could win 10/10. However, Lucas has admitted to being ignorant on the EU, and I was addressing an EU fight, obviously. And for the record, Lucas contradicts himself on a regular basis. He claimed Shaak Ti was on par with the likes of Windu and Obi-Wan, characters whom realistically, film or EU-wise, would stomp her. Regardless, Lucas's power over SW is entirely absent so his comments hardly carry the weight they used to.

Ignorant or not, His word is G cannon no?

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#22 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@easternwind: G-Canon doesn't even exist anymore, and Lucas lost power long ago. As I said, they only apply to a movie universe, because he does not interfere with the EU continuity, by virtue of his own word.

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#23 Posted by Easternwind (4490 posts) - - Show Bio

@easternwind:

As I said, his skill is not hindered - that has never occurred in a fight. His stamina depletes and therefore he lacks the capacity to continue fighting, which was the disadvantage on his part.

It doesnt matter if the skill is not hindered, If other aspects gave Anakin an advantage it is not possible to compare it skill to skill.

As I said , would he not be taxed in stamina because of more issues going blade to blade and deflection?

But I am not 100% disagreeing, I see what you mean, If he matched him in skill until he tired that says a lot, I am just going over all the factors.

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#24 Edited by Easternwind (4490 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@easternwind: G-Canon doesn't even exist anymore, and Lucas lost power long ago. As I said, they only apply to a movie universe, because he does not interfere with the EU continuity, by virtue of his own word.

Hmmm, I dont know, wouldnt any statements before the Spilt still count? Otherwise you could say the movies dont effect the cannon either. Or is all this explicitly stated somewhere?

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#25 Edited by Erkan12 (8039 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Better TK ? Anakin never pushed a tank (AT-TE) in TCW .... Or didn't stomp anyone at Grievous level. Not to mention getting stomp by Dooku twice and stalemate with Obi-Wan.

If there are any inconsistent TK feats, it is belong to Anakin... Which is natural, Anakin has great potential but never reached it.

Also it is really weird that, when it come to Grievous that cartoon show becomes the priority, and calling it as ''Grievous's prime'', but when it come to Windu's TK feats it becomes ''inconsistent'' ... Windu's TK feats are not inconsistent, Anakin's feat are.

Mace is too fast for Anakin. He was invisible against Kar Vastor, teleported behind Asajj Ventress, moved faster than blaster bolt, speedblitzed many renown warrior (including Jango Fett), and finaly he was invisible to Anakin in RotS.

About Force Combat and strength you decide ;

Loading Video...
Loading Video...

Anakin is not winning even a single round.

Ah and this is a good example ;

Anakin get owned by one Gundark...

No Caption Provided

01x11 - Dooku Captured

Windu holding his own against two...

No Caption Provided

06x09 - The Disappeared

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#26 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@easternwind: Lucas gave up his power long before the split, and the canon classes were rearranged into one class before the split as well - there was no such thing as G-Canon before the EU was declared a separate continuity.

It doesnt matter if the skill is not hindered, If other aspects gave Anakin an advantage it is not possible to compare it skill to skill.

If Dooku's skill was not hindered, then his incapacity to gain any edge over Anakin (Revenge of the Sith junior novelization) and Anakin's inability to gain an edge over him, in turn, is indication that they were evenly matched - therefore, it is not a stretch to suggest that Anakin rivals Dooku as a combatant. Anakin had no edges in pertinence to raw skill, only the manner in which Dooku used his strength, which meant Dooku simply wouldn't be able to last as long. Nowhere was it stated Dooku couldn't fight properly because of Anakin's ferocity, which hindered him to an extent but not so much in regards to skill, as I have said.

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#27 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

If anybody thinks TCW is a valid comparison source for EU Anakin, then there shouldn't be a debate in the first place.

And no, Anakin's feats are not inconsistent. This is only due to TCW's repeated lowballs of Anakin's power so as to make him unable to even lift a single podium, which more than transcends the line of stupidity. Anakin's vastly reduced levels in TK, speed, sometimes skill, and strength are all sufficient for me to actually say he'd probably be less than half the Anakin in the EU, who would run circles around him, wreck him with TK, and crush him in a fight save for a few instances in TCW where Anakin is actually portrayed properly. Also, don't twist my words. Windu Crushing Grievous is not inconsistent, but the domination of armies via TK (which was also domino effect-reliant anyway) is inconsistent. He has lost to armies of unarmed beings, and in general, he has never managed levels of TK anywhere near that without the help of another - he needed Yoda's help to TK less droids in the same show on Coruscant, he needed other Jedi's help to hurl some Yinchorri, etc.

Also, if anybody thinks Mace being too fast for Anakin to see in RotS was actually valid, then I have to say they're at least half-decent at joking. Because Mace receiving an extremely exorbitant amp in order to fight with Palpatine is not translatable to his other fights, and Anakin is faster than Windu.

Deflecting blaster fire from armies along with Kenobi:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

As a padawan prior to AotC, appearing everywhere at once:

Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life.

But from someone so young? Anakin's power astonished him. He had glimpsed it before, but now he had seen it unfurl, and it staggered him.

He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.

Credit to Silver2467

Fighting fast enough to coat himself in the light of his blade, which was also only achieved during AotC, three years before his prime:

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

Source: Attack of the Clones

Generating multiple afterimages (again, as a padawan):

No Caption Provided

Fighting fast enough to envelop Dooku's vision and make him see blue light everywhere:

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Deflecting blaster fire from miniature armies and destroying them, single-handedly:

Anakin moved with the swiftness and brilliance of a burning sun. Droids rushed against him, their weapons firing indiscriminately. His lightsaber flashing in a blinding symphony of light and destruction, he parried the bolts effortlessly, sending some ripping through the walls and roof, others back into the very droids that had fired them. He wasn't defending now, he was attacking, attacking with such fury and destruction that nothing could stop him. And he knew where he was going—he was headed for the enemy command post.

The droids, unable to give way, unable to surrender even if Anakin would have spared them, flew apart like cheap dolls as the lightsaber cut through them in a broad swath of destruction. The clone troopers following the Jedi had difficulty finding targets, and stumbled over the debris he left in his passage through the complex. They merely followed in his wake, covering his back. Before long he was outside the building and heading with unerring accuracy toward Pors Tonith's bunker. It seemed as if Tonith's entire army was firing at Anakin, but as he ran at full speed over the uneven ground that separated the communications facility from Tonith's command bunker, not a single bolt touched him. The troopers following hugged the ground and crawled painfully onward while their commander stood erect and ran unscathed through the burning trajectories of death.

Source: Jedi Trial

Also, for the record, Windu has admitted Anakin is more powerful than he is more than once.

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#28 Posted by i_like_swords (25962 posts) - - Show Bio

Clovis > Everyone

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#29 Posted by Erkan12 (8039 posts) - - Show Bio

Clovis > Everyone

I decide to use Gundark example. Which is perfect for this.

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#30 Edited by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Windu

Round 2: Vader in close fight

Round 3: Windu

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#31 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

I laughed at how a senator managed to kick anybody, much less a Jedi of any class, several meters despite being pinned down. That's something which should transcend some of the best martial artists possible for a human, so obviously the unrealistic fighting scenarios presented in TCW where Anakin is unable to shrug off hits from a senator is more than laughable. That lowball attempt was equally laughable. Anakin was stomping Clovis, completely and utterly, until Padme distracted him and Clovis had a free hit. And then at the end, Clovis actually legitimately landing hits is beyond the need to refute.

Part of the reason I refuse to engage in direct debates any longer is the lowballing I have seen here, particularly with Anakin. I could lowball by citing an instance where Windu lost to an company of unarmed people, and when his strength was not enough to even move an akk dog, or when his TK was insufficient to even lift miniature transports. But I won't - that's the difference in how I debate, and how some others debate. I debate to express my views and to simply propose a victor based on conclusive and consistent evidence - not to give my favorite a win by posting high-end showings on his part and lowballing the other character. I don't debate to win - I debate to inform others, and to have fun - because, in actuality, there's always the possibility of me being wrong, which is exactly why I may insist on correcting others, but not on overly promoting my own opinions. Anybody who declares there can't be discussion by virtue of a mismatch in a scenario which is obviously not a mismatch is an entirely subjective and self-proclaimed restriction on other users' ability to debate. That's not how debating works, especially since none of the evidence for Windu stomping was valid in the first place.

Oh... and by the way, Anakin has stomped people well beyond Grievous's TK resistance class, such as Ventress, who is vastly more powerful (TK resistance is more important than durability, which has no bearing in regards to resisting telekinesis).

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#32 Posted by Whirlwind_33 (1618 posts) - - Show Bio

@easternwind: Not sure. Probably 8/10 for Anakin. He is vastly more powerful, as well as considerably faster and stronger and probably close enough to Windu in skill that the edge would be negligible and his edge in other areas more than suffice to circumvent that minimal edge.

Regardless, his emotions may trouble him and turn it into a better fight or perhaps a slim victory for Windu, which is why he may win two rounds. In other circumstances, Anakin could be the beneficiary of his emotions, feeding his darker usages of the Force, and allowing him to ragdoll Mace in that way, or overwhelm him in a fight. That shouldn't be common enough to have an impact on the fight, though.

pretty much this

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#33 Posted by Transformaa (1075 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't mace beat Vaders master?..how is anyone beating mace..

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#34 Posted by i_like_swords (25962 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't mace beat Vaders master?..how is anyone beating mace..

Oh boy.. there's always one.

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#35 Posted by sacredweapons (2147 posts) - - Show Bio

windu is supposed to be as strong as yoda. Or above because i dont know if they said he was stronger or not but i think he is.

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#36 Edited by Scarbearer (784 posts) - - Show Bio

@transformaa said:

Didn't mace beat Vaders master?..how is anyone beating mace..

Oh boy.. there's always one.

I think that's a fair question. That's certainly how I remember the movie playing out. I feel like Windu beat Palpatine pretty convincingly in that scene and then got blind sided by Anakin.

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#37 Posted by D3MON (374 posts) - - Show Bio

Windu, all rounds.

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#38 Posted by i_like_swords (25962 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

@transformaa said:

Didn't mace beat Vaders master?..how is anyone beating mace..

Oh boy.. there's always one.

I think that's a fair question. That's certainly how I remember the movie playing out. I feel like Windu beat Palpatine pretty convincingly in that scene and then got blind sided by Anakin.

The novelisation of the film explains that Mace received an amplification in overall power and speed especially which allowed him to keep up with Sidious. It was a one-time thing and pretty circumstantial. Sidious has moved faster than Maul, Anakin ect can even see and under normal circumstances Mace is even slower than them.

Sorry if I came off like a d*ck before, it's just that this is brought up and re-explained a few times a week on this site.

Someone should link Silver's blog about it.

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#39 Edited by dimitridkatsis (3019 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

@transformaa said:

Didn't mace beat Vaders master?..how is anyone beating mace..

Oh boy.. there's always one.

I think that's a fair question. That's certainly how I remember the movie playing out. I feel like Windu beat Palpatine pretty convincingly in that scene and then got blind sided by Anakin.

Nah, Sidious kills all the others in seconds and keeps Mace around till Anakin shows up and makes it look like he's trying to murder him. Mace still takes it against Anakin but I think Sidious' scheme is obvious just like his higher fighter status.

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#40 Edited by Erkan12 (8039 posts) - - Show Bio

Windu lowballing never ends... *Sigh*

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#41 Edited by Erkan12 (8039 posts) - - Show Bio

@dimitridkatsis said:

@scarbearer said:

@i_like_swords said:

@transformaa said:

Didn't mace beat Vaders master?..how is anyone beating mace..

Oh boy.. there's always one.

I think that's a fair question. That's certainly how I remember the movie playing out. I feel like Windu beat Palpatine pretty convincingly in that scene and then got blind sided by Anakin.

Nah, Sidious kills all the others in seconds and keeps Mace around till Anakin shows up and makes it look like he's trying to murder him. Mace still takes it against Anakin but I think Sidious' scheme is obvious just like his higher fighter status.

Nick Gillard said that Windu only second to Yoda, and George Lucas said that you need to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor...

Mace was much powerful than other masters, since he was the Master of the Order, thats not weird.

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#42 Posted by Pharoh_Atem (44227 posts) - - Show Bio

And this is why I refuse to partake in any battle threads that only involves CW characters. -_-

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#43 Posted by i_like_swords (25962 posts) - - Show Bio

And this is why I refuse to partake in any battle threads that only involves CW characters. -_-

I agree... it's draining to say the least. It won't ever stop though.

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#44 Posted by Pharoh_Atem (44227 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

And this is why I refuse to partake in any battle threads that only involves CW characters. -_-

I agree... it's draining to say the least. It won't ever stop though.

*shrugs* If that's what you got to do to maintain, then going ahead and do your thing. A spot is always open of you ever decide to join in on our strike though. :P

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#45 Posted by i_like_swords (25962 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

And this is why I refuse to partake in any battle threads that only involves CW characters. -_-

I agree... it's draining to say the least. It won't ever stop though.

*shrugs* If that's what you got to do to maintain, then going ahead and do your thing. A spot is always open of you ever decide to join in on our strike though. :P

I haven't been at this as long as you guys, so I feel like it'd be a bit silly to take my leave just yet. Plus someone needs to stay and keep everything in order around here!

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#46 Posted by Transformaa (1075 posts) - - Show Bio

So what's the vaapad all about.?.and why was mace the only one to truly master it. .Even higher than yoda..anyone care to explain this

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#47 Posted by i_like_swords (25962 posts) - - Show Bio

@transformaa: It's a lightsaber form co-adapted from Juyo by Mace Windu and Sora Bulq. What about it?

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#48 Edited by Transformaa (1075 posts) - - Show Bio

I heard mace was so good at it, no one could best his performance. .not even yoda

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#49 Edited by generator2000 (1483 posts) - - Show Bio

@easternwind said:

Apparently this has not been done before so..

Round 1

Anakin/Vader ROTS vs Mace Windu

Round 2

Anakin/Vader with a clear mind vs Mace Windu

Round 2

Anakin/Vader Amalgam vs Mace Windu

  • Vader Mind, Anakin's Body
No Caption Provided

Round 1: Windu easily takes this. "Anakin was wild, unfocused and had the eyes of a beast." Anakin got sloppy during RotS and if he's pushed too hard, he may leave himself open to get hurt. If Obi Wan beat him because of that, a master like Windu should beat him as well.

Round 2: Could go either way, depending on how Windu feels apparently, since his vaapad leaves him open to the dark side and if his emotions get a little out of hand, he may get little more powerful. I learned that after I found out about his amp.

Round 3: Vader. If Vader didn't get injured, he would have been more powerful than Palpatine. With Vader's mastery of the dark side, he'd murder Windu.

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#50 Posted by i_like_swords (25962 posts) - - Show Bio

I heard mace was so good at it, no one could best his performance. .not even yoda

You heard wrong. Very, very wrong. Yoda would defeat Mace 10/10 times. More powerful by a very considerable degree, and more skilled by a fair degree.