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#151 Posted by JacenSolo77 (863 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: About the Lucas quote, LOTL already addressed it. I was about to say what he said, basically.

I don't even get what LOTL is arguing tbh, it's self explanatory. "From then on he wasn't as strong as the emperor" implies he was previously as strong as the emperor, it's not that hard to grasp tbh.

Caedus got ambushed and cheapshotted ad the beginning, yet he managed to hurt badly Luke who was bloodlusted.

Given Caedus immediately retaliates with a kick that hits Luke the surprise advantage would have worn off, Jacen still got brutally humiliated by Luke right after.

The quote about Saba is from Jacen’s POV, hence subjective and not definitive. He could have understimated himself.

You do realise Caedus is incredibly arrogant right, it's a character trait of his yet despite this he's confident in Saba's ability to give him a good fight.

After being caught completely off guard and with his force defenses lowered.

I notice you failed to address the point about Luke merely tapping the chair with his power and then Caedus becomes completely unable to TK it, his efforts being humiliating failures. In other words a mere "tap" from Luke is enough to refute Caedus's TK in its entirety. As a counter to your argument you'd be correct in saying Caedus was caught off guard but the fact is that Luke continues to hold him there with a fraction of his power and doesn't even try, having a several minute conversation with Caedus unable to move a millimetre the entire time. Do you think Sidious can effortlessly pin Yoda to a chair for several minutes without fail with a mere fraction of his power just because he gets the surprise advantage. It's not the ragdolling but rather the fact that it's maintained despite Caedus's best efforts for several minutes without trying. How anyone can read the passage and come to the conclusion Caedus is anything more than an insect to Luke is beyond me.

That never happened, cause if would have happened Caedus would have died there. Luke was going for the kill, with the surprise effect advantage, yet he could have kill Jacen only after a prolonged fight.

Already addressed the surprise advantage, and no Luke didn't kill him because Caedus had an anchor to pull himself to with telekinesis, something not available on neutral playing field.

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#152 Posted by Richard96 (5552 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

“I don't even get what LOTL is arguing tbh, it's self explanatory. "From then on he wasn't as strong as the emperor" implies he was previously as strong as the emperor, it's not that hard to grasp tbh.”

I don’t think so. It says simply that after Mustafar Vader isn’t strong as the emperor, but more like dooku or maul, cause the injuries he got prevented him to surpass sidious. In fact, the statement after that corroborates the idea, saying “he wasn’t what he was supposed to become”. But this doesn’t mean that before Mustafar he was already as strong as the emperor.

“Given Caedus immediately retaliates with a kick that hits Luke the surprise advantage would have worn off”

This only proves that even with the surprise affect Luke could not one shot Caedus.

“Jacen still got brutally humiliated by Luke right after.”

Purely headcanon. Luke won after a brutal fight.

“You do realise Caedus is incredibly arrogant right, it's a character trait of his yet despite this he's confident in Saba's ability to give him a good fight.”

He could have overestimated Saba, we don’t know. A POV statement is not definitive.

“I notice you failed to address the point about Luke merely tapping the chair with his power and then Caedus becomes completely unable to TK it, his efforts being humiliating failures. In other words a mere "tap" from Luke is enough to refute Caedus's TK in its entirety. As a counter to your argument you'd be correct in saying Caedus was caught off guard but the fact is that Luke continues to hold him there with a fraction of his power and doesn't even try, having a several minute conversation with Caedus unable to move a millimetre the entire time.”

Cause Luke is more powerful. But that doesn’t mean he can one shot a prepared Jacen. Also that Luke used “a fraction of his power” is just conjecture.

“Do you think Sidious can effortlessly pin Yoda to a chair for several minutes without fail with a mere fraction of his power just because he gets the surprise advantage. It's not the ragdolling but rather the fact that it's maintained despite Caedus's best efforts for several minutes without trying.”

Sidious is just marginally more powerful than yoda, while the gap between Luke and Caedus is more ample.

“How anyone can read the passage and come to the conclusion Caedus is anything more than an insect to Luke is beyond me.”

By the sheer fact that when Luke faced Caedus and wanted to kill him, he couldn’t simply snap his fingers and one shot him.

“Luke didn't kill him because Caedus had an anchor to pull himself to with telekinesis, something not available on neutral playing field.”

Ridiculous. I can’t find the words to express how this argument is asinine. Caedus avoided luke’s blow via TK cause he was enough fast and skilled to do that. Nothing else. Also, unless you fight in a desert, according to you almost every fight seen in SW is not on neutral ground.

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#153 Posted by JacenSolo77 (863 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: I don’t think so.

Really, I never would have guessed that.

It says simply that after Mustafar Vader isn’t strong as the emperor, but more like dooku or maul, cause the injuries he got prevented him to surpass sidious.

Except it refers to the present tense when referring to Vader's parity with Maul and Dooku, and the past when referring to Vader being equal to Sidious which means it's not referring to potential but clearly power.

In fact, the statement after that corroborates the idea, saying “he wasn’t what he was supposed to become”. But this doesn’t mean that before Mustafar he was already as strong as the emperor.

You're right it doesn't but prior he was explicitly noted as as strong as the emperor. As Lucas has noted elsewhere Vader was supposed to become double Sidious's power and to surpass him, here he's noted to be equal to Sidious so he wasn't what he was supposed to become.

This only proves that even with the surprise affect Luke could not one shot Caedus.

Nobody ever argued that Luke can one shot him in sabers though, just stomp him, people think he can one shot Caedus with force power.

Purely headcanon. Luke won after a brutal fight.

The only reason why Luke won after a "brutal fight" is because Caedus used the environment to his advantage after being effortlessly outmatched by Luke.

He could have overestimated Saba, we don’t know. A POV statement is not definitive.

Given Caedus's history of arrogance he's more likely to overestimate himself than he is to overestimate Saba to be honest. And we don't dismiss statements on the account that they are from a characters POV. Also given you've used POV statements in the past to argue he gave Luke a brutal fight and can do so again wouldn't you be a bit of a hypocrite?

Cause Luke is more powerful.

Except it doesn't just constitute a gap but a large gap, the sort of gap that completely makes the idea Caedus can fight Luke on even footing ludicrous.

But that doesn’t mean he can one shot a prepared Jacen.

A tap from Luke rendered Caedus's TK utterly useless and he held him pinned to a chair with Caedus unable to move for several minutes without trying so yes he absolutely can lmfao. You are arguing something that just isn't supported by the source material at all lol.

Also that Luke used “a fraction of his power” is just conjecture.

Given Caedus makes explicit note that he "got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster" during Revelation it's the logical conclusion he used a fraction of his power. Consider, if Caedus has no idea of the kind of power Luke can muster when he's seen Luke hold him pinned to a chair without effort for minutes on end and render Caedus's TK useless with a tap then it's logical Luke didn't use anywhere close to his full potency given this is the first time Caedus has any idea of Luke's limits.

Sidious is just marginally more powerful than yoda, while the gap between Luke and Caedus is more ample.

So you're admitting that the gap between Caedus and Luke is huge, huge enough that Caedus is incapable of matching Luke in a lightsaber duel given the force and saber combat are interlinked which would mean you'd have to concede that:

A) Luke is jobbing as usual due to him suppressing his power like he does against almost everyone, which actually does fit with what we know (Luke rendering Caedus's TK useless with a tap, holding him pinned to a chair for several minutes without effort during Inferno, yet only during Revelation does Caedus get an idea of Luke's power, meaning that Luke is in full jobber mode against Caedus during the duel, using much greater amounts of his power but still not the full extent of it in the chair instance and then reveals his limits in Revelation).

B) The duel was heavily circumstantial and Luke was still holding back his full power, just not in full jobber mode like he was against Lumiya and the like, using the same amount of power he was in the chair instance and then in Revelation he exposes his limits.

Pick one though I personally think B favours Caedus more, blocking a blitz from and landing a hit on a Luke who is using far greater extents of his power than usual is considerably better than contending with jobber Skywalker. B is also more reflected in the source material.

By the sheer fact that when Luke faced Caedus and wanted to kill him, he couldn’t simply snap his fingers and one shot him.

Because he was bloodlusted he doesn't immediately TK him but goes in for the kill with a saber and Caedus manages to injure him via the environment after being stomped to the point where Luke can't simply snap his fingers and end the fight or because Luke wasn't using the full extent of his power despite being pissed off, just like how he failed to one shot Lumiya while bloodlusted. Again option 1 looks better for Caedus.

Ridiculous. I can’t find the words to express how this argument is asinine.

TBH your debating here has been more asinine than this argument.

Caedus avoided luke’s blow via TK cause he was enough fast and skilled to do that.

Pulling yourself to an anchor with TK has nothing to do with skill and speed, if Caedus hadn't done that he would have died.

Nothing else.

Oh really?

Also, unless you fight in a desert, according to you almost every fight seen in SW is not on neutral ground.

Strawman I never argued it not being on neutral ground in itself made the fight unfair but combatants in duelling rarely have to TK themselves to an anchor after nearly dying in 7 blows, nor do they have to then follow up by using the environment to badly injure there opponent before they start duelling them on even footing.

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#154 Posted by Richard96 (5552 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

Except it refers to the present tense when referring to Vader's parity with Maul and Dooku, and the past when referring to Vader being equal to Sidious which means it's not referring to potential but clearly power.

The quote NEVER says vader was equal to sidious in the past.

Nobody ever argued that Luke can one shot him in sabers though, just stomp him, people think he can one shot Caedus with force power.

And why didn't luke do it in the Inferno fight?

The only reason why Luke won after a "brutal fight" is because Caedus used the environment to his advantage after being effortlessly outmatched by Luke.

Do you mean when the "environment" trapped Caedus in tendrils?

Also given you've used POV statements in the past to argue he gave Luke a brutal fight and can do so again wouldn't you be a bit of a hypocrite?

Never used POV statements. There are two statements:

Three YVH droids were left. And Jacen. Against Luke and Ben. Jacen was Luke's match, which meant Ben had to cope with three combat droids. The odds weren't good.

-Star Wars Legacy of the Force: Fury

Clearly objective and not POV. The second:

That fight... Caedus wished he had a holorecording of it. It had gone on for what had felt like forever. It had been brutal, with the advantage being held first by Luke, then by Caedus, in what he knew had been brilliant demonstrations of lightsaber technique, of raw power within the Force, of subtle Jedi and Sith skills.

I guess that Caedus talks of himself in third person, right?

A tap from Luke rendered Caedus's TK utterly useless and he held him pinned to a chair with Caedus unable to move for several minutes without trying so yes he absolutely can lmfao. You are arguing something that just isn't supported by the source material at all lol.

You are arguing something that it is not supported by the material and by LOGIC, since that when luke and jacen fought, Luke simply did not one shot jacen with a wave of his hand, even if he wanted to.

So you're admitting that the gap between Caedus and Luke is huge, huge enough that Caedus is incapable of matching Luke in a lightsaber duel given the force and saber combat are interlinked which would mean you'd have to concede that:

I am just saying the gap between luke and jacen is more ample between the one between yoda and sidious, simply cause yoda and sidious are nearly EQUALS. The rest is just your headcanon.

Luke is jobbing as usual due to him suppressing his power like he does against almost everyone,

Directly contradicted by the fact luke wanted to kill jacen.

The duel was heavily circumstantial

Baseless headcanon. Also, no circumstances could have saved jacen, if luke could one shot him via force. But that did not happen.

Because he was bloodlusted he doesn't immediately TK him but goes in for the kill with a saber and Caedus manages to injure him via the environment after being stomped to the point where Luke can't simply snap his fingers and end the fight or because Luke wasn't using the full extent of his power despite being pissed off, just like how he failed to one shot Lumiya while bloodlusted. Again option 1 looks better for Caedus.

Still baseless assumptions and ridicolous justifications.

Pulling yourself to an anchor with TK has nothing to do with skill and speed, if Caedus hadn't done that he would have died.

Pulling yourself with an anchor to avoid a blow is just like rolling aside to dodge it, if jacen did it it means he is enough fast and prepared to avoid that blow. Your point are just moot.

Strawman I never argued it not being on neutral ground in itself made the fight unfair but combatants in duelling rarely have to TK themselves to an anchor after nearly dying in 7 blows,

And? You are grasping at straws. Jacen dodging an attack from Luke does not equate to him being desperate and Luke being able to beat him in three moves on a whim. If you believe Jacen dodging an attack is desperate, then you are put in the position of arguing that every other combatant in the Star Wars who has dodged an attack was also desperate, and by extension at the mercy of their opponent on a whim.

nor do they have to then follow up by using the environment to badly injure there opponent before they start duelling them on even footing.7

Jacen used the force to slam luke against a wall with a rack. And? Also sidious was trying to smash yoda via podiums. Was the fight circumstantial?