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#151 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: About the Lucas quote, LOTL already addressed it. I was about to say what he said, basically.

I don't even get what LOTL is arguing tbh, it's self explanatory. "From then on he wasn't as strong as the emperor" implies he was previously as strong as the emperor, it's not that hard to grasp tbh.

Caedus got ambushed and cheapshotted ad the beginning, yet he managed to hurt badly Luke who was bloodlusted.

Given Caedus immediately retaliates with a kick that hits Luke the surprise advantage would have worn off, Jacen still got brutally humiliated by Luke right after.

The quote about Saba is from Jacen’s POV, hence subjective and not definitive. He could have understimated himself.

You do realise Caedus is incredibly arrogant right, it's a character trait of his yet despite this he's confident in Saba's ability to give him a good fight.

After being caught completely off guard and with his force defenses lowered.

I notice you failed to address the point about Luke merely tapping the chair with his power and then Caedus becomes completely unable to TK it, his efforts being humiliating failures. In other words a mere "tap" from Luke is enough to refute Caedus's TK in its entirety. As a counter to your argument you'd be correct in saying Caedus was caught off guard but the fact is that Luke continues to hold him there with a fraction of his power and doesn't even try, having a several minute conversation with Caedus unable to move a millimetre the entire time. Do you think Sidious can effortlessly pin Yoda to a chair for several minutes without fail with a mere fraction of his power just because he gets the surprise advantage. It's not the ragdolling but rather the fact that it's maintained despite Caedus's best efforts for several minutes without trying. How anyone can read the passage and come to the conclusion Caedus is anything more than an insect to Luke is beyond me.

That never happened, cause if would have happened Caedus would have died there. Luke was going for the kill, with the surprise effect advantage, yet he could have kill Jacen only after a prolonged fight.

Already addressed the surprise advantage, and no Luke didn't kill him because Caedus had an anchor to pull himself to with telekinesis, something not available on neutral playing field.

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#152 Posted by Richard96 (5739 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

“I don't even get what LOTL is arguing tbh, it's self explanatory. "From then on he wasn't as strong as the emperor" implies he was previously as strong as the emperor, it's not that hard to grasp tbh.”

I don’t think so. It says simply that after Mustafar Vader isn’t strong as the emperor, but more like dooku or maul, cause the injuries he got prevented him to surpass sidious. In fact, the statement after that corroborates the idea, saying “he wasn’t what he was supposed to become”. But this doesn’t mean that before Mustafar he was already as strong as the emperor.

“Given Caedus immediately retaliates with a kick that hits Luke the surprise advantage would have worn off”

This only proves that even with the surprise affect Luke could not one shot Caedus.

“Jacen still got brutally humiliated by Luke right after.”

Purely headcanon. Luke won after a brutal fight.

“You do realise Caedus is incredibly arrogant right, it's a character trait of his yet despite this he's confident in Saba's ability to give him a good fight.”

He could have overestimated Saba, we don’t know. A POV statement is not definitive.

“I notice you failed to address the point about Luke merely tapping the chair with his power and then Caedus becomes completely unable to TK it, his efforts being humiliating failures. In other words a mere "tap" from Luke is enough to refute Caedus's TK in its entirety. As a counter to your argument you'd be correct in saying Caedus was caught off guard but the fact is that Luke continues to hold him there with a fraction of his power and doesn't even try, having a several minute conversation with Caedus unable to move a millimetre the entire time.”

Cause Luke is more powerful. But that doesn’t mean he can one shot a prepared Jacen. Also that Luke used “a fraction of his power” is just conjecture.

“Do you think Sidious can effortlessly pin Yoda to a chair for several minutes without fail with a mere fraction of his power just because he gets the surprise advantage. It's not the ragdolling but rather the fact that it's maintained despite Caedus's best efforts for several minutes without trying.”

Sidious is just marginally more powerful than yoda, while the gap between Luke and Caedus is more ample.

“How anyone can read the passage and come to the conclusion Caedus is anything more than an insect to Luke is beyond me.”

By the sheer fact that when Luke faced Caedus and wanted to kill him, he couldn’t simply snap his fingers and one shot him.

“Luke didn't kill him because Caedus had an anchor to pull himself to with telekinesis, something not available on neutral playing field.”

Ridiculous. I can’t find the words to express how this argument is asinine. Caedus avoided luke’s blow via TK cause he was enough fast and skilled to do that. Nothing else. Also, unless you fight in a desert, according to you almost every fight seen in SW is not on neutral ground.

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#153 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: I don’t think so.

Really, I never would have guessed that.

It says simply that after Mustafar Vader isn’t strong as the emperor, but more like dooku or maul, cause the injuries he got prevented him to surpass sidious.

Except it refers to the present tense when referring to Vader's parity with Maul and Dooku, and the past when referring to Vader being equal to Sidious which means it's not referring to potential but clearly power.

In fact, the statement after that corroborates the idea, saying “he wasn’t what he was supposed to become”. But this doesn’t mean that before Mustafar he was already as strong as the emperor.

You're right it doesn't but prior he was explicitly noted as as strong as the emperor. As Lucas has noted elsewhere Vader was supposed to become double Sidious's power and to surpass him, here he's noted to be equal to Sidious so he wasn't what he was supposed to become.

This only proves that even with the surprise affect Luke could not one shot Caedus.

Nobody ever argued that Luke can one shot him in sabers though, just stomp him, people think he can one shot Caedus with force power.

Purely headcanon. Luke won after a brutal fight.

The only reason why Luke won after a "brutal fight" is because Caedus used the environment to his advantage after being effortlessly outmatched by Luke.

He could have overestimated Saba, we don’t know. A POV statement is not definitive.

Given Caedus's history of arrogance he's more likely to overestimate himself than he is to overestimate Saba to be honest. And we don't dismiss statements on the account that they are from a characters POV. Also given you've used POV statements in the past to argue he gave Luke a brutal fight and can do so again wouldn't you be a bit of a hypocrite?

Cause Luke is more powerful.

Except it doesn't just constitute a gap but a large gap, the sort of gap that completely makes the idea Caedus can fight Luke on even footing ludicrous.

But that doesn’t mean he can one shot a prepared Jacen.

A tap from Luke rendered Caedus's TK utterly useless and he held him pinned to a chair with Caedus unable to move for several minutes without trying so yes he absolutely can lmfao. You are arguing something that just isn't supported by the source material at all lol.

Also that Luke used “a fraction of his power” is just conjecture.

Given Caedus makes explicit note that he "got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster" during Revelation it's the logical conclusion he used a fraction of his power. Consider, if Caedus has no idea of the kind of power Luke can muster when he's seen Luke hold him pinned to a chair without effort for minutes on end and render Caedus's TK useless with a tap then it's logical Luke didn't use anywhere close to his full potency given this is the first time Caedus has any idea of Luke's limits.

Sidious is just marginally more powerful than yoda, while the gap between Luke and Caedus is more ample.

So you're admitting that the gap between Caedus and Luke is huge, huge enough that Caedus is incapable of matching Luke in a lightsaber duel given the force and saber combat are interlinked which would mean you'd have to concede that:

A) Luke is jobbing as usual due to him suppressing his power like he does against almost everyone, which actually does fit with what we know (Luke rendering Caedus's TK useless with a tap, holding him pinned to a chair for several minutes without effort during Inferno, yet only during Revelation does Caedus get an idea of Luke's power, meaning that Luke is in full jobber mode against Caedus during the duel, using much greater amounts of his power but still not the full extent of it in the chair instance and then reveals his limits in Revelation).

B) The duel was heavily circumstantial and Luke was still holding back his full power, just not in full jobber mode like he was against Lumiya and the like, using the same amount of power he was in the chair instance and then in Revelation he exposes his limits.

Pick one though I personally think B favours Caedus more, blocking a blitz from and landing a hit on a Luke who is using far greater extents of his power than usual is considerably better than contending with jobber Skywalker. B is also more reflected in the source material.

By the sheer fact that when Luke faced Caedus and wanted to kill him, he couldn’t simply snap his fingers and one shot him.

Because he was bloodlusted he doesn't immediately TK him but goes in for the kill with a saber and Caedus manages to injure him via the environment after being stomped to the point where Luke can't simply snap his fingers and end the fight or because Luke wasn't using the full extent of his power despite being pissed off, just like how he failed to one shot Lumiya while bloodlusted. Again option 1 looks better for Caedus.

Ridiculous. I can’t find the words to express how this argument is asinine.

TBH your debating here has been more asinine than this argument.

Caedus avoided luke’s blow via TK cause he was enough fast and skilled to do that.

Pulling yourself to an anchor with TK has nothing to do with skill and speed, if Caedus hadn't done that he would have died.

Nothing else.

Oh really?

Also, unless you fight in a desert, according to you almost every fight seen in SW is not on neutral ground.

Strawman I never argued it not being on neutral ground in itself made the fight unfair but combatants in duelling rarely have to TK themselves to an anchor after nearly dying in 7 blows, nor do they have to then follow up by using the environment to badly injure there opponent before they start duelling them on even footing.

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#154 Posted by Richard96 (5739 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

Except it refers to the present tense when referring to Vader's parity with Maul and Dooku, and the past when referring to Vader being equal to Sidious which means it's not referring to potential but clearly power.

The quote NEVER says vader was equal to sidious in the past.

Nobody ever argued that Luke can one shot him in sabers though, just stomp him, people think he can one shot Caedus with force power.

And why didn't luke do it in the Inferno fight?

The only reason why Luke won after a "brutal fight" is because Caedus used the environment to his advantage after being effortlessly outmatched by Luke.

Do you mean when the "environment" trapped Caedus in tendrils?

Also given you've used POV statements in the past to argue he gave Luke a brutal fight and can do so again wouldn't you be a bit of a hypocrite?

Never used POV statements. There are two statements:

Three YVH droids were left. And Jacen. Against Luke and Ben. Jacen was Luke's match, which meant Ben had to cope with three combat droids. The odds weren't good.

-Star Wars Legacy of the Force: Fury

Clearly objective and not POV. The second:

That fight... Caedus wished he had a holorecording of it. It had gone on for what had felt like forever. It had been brutal, with the advantage being held first by Luke, then by Caedus, in what he knew had been brilliant demonstrations of lightsaber technique, of raw power within the Force, of subtle Jedi and Sith skills.

I guess that Caedus talks of himself in third person, right?

A tap from Luke rendered Caedus's TK utterly useless and he held him pinned to a chair with Caedus unable to move for several minutes without trying so yes he absolutely can lmfao. You are arguing something that just isn't supported by the source material at all lol.

You are arguing something that it is not supported by the material and by LOGIC, since that when luke and jacen fought, Luke simply did not one shot jacen with a wave of his hand, even if he wanted to.

So you're admitting that the gap between Caedus and Luke is huge, huge enough that Caedus is incapable of matching Luke in a lightsaber duel given the force and saber combat are interlinked which would mean you'd have to concede that:

I am just saying the gap between luke and jacen is more ample between the one between yoda and sidious, simply cause yoda and sidious are nearly EQUALS. The rest is just your headcanon.

Luke is jobbing as usual due to him suppressing his power like he does against almost everyone,

Directly contradicted by the fact luke wanted to kill jacen.

The duel was heavily circumstantial

Baseless headcanon. Also, no circumstances could have saved jacen, if luke could one shot him via force. But that did not happen.

Because he was bloodlusted he doesn't immediately TK him but goes in for the kill with a saber and Caedus manages to injure him via the environment after being stomped to the point where Luke can't simply snap his fingers and end the fight or because Luke wasn't using the full extent of his power despite being pissed off, just like how he failed to one shot Lumiya while bloodlusted. Again option 1 looks better for Caedus.

Still baseless assumptions and ridicolous justifications.

Pulling yourself to an anchor with TK has nothing to do with skill and speed, if Caedus hadn't done that he would have died.

Pulling yourself with an anchor to avoid a blow is just like rolling aside to dodge it, if jacen did it it means he is enough fast and prepared to avoid that blow. Your point are just moot.

Strawman I never argued it not being on neutral ground in itself made the fight unfair but combatants in duelling rarely have to TK themselves to an anchor after nearly dying in 7 blows,

And? You are grasping at straws. Jacen dodging an attack from Luke does not equate to him being desperate and Luke being able to beat him in three moves on a whim. If you believe Jacen dodging an attack is desperate, then you are put in the position of arguing that every other combatant in the Star Wars who has dodged an attack was also desperate, and by extension at the mercy of their opponent on a whim.

nor do they have to then follow up by using the environment to badly injure there opponent before they start duelling them on even footing.7

Jacen used the force to slam luke against a wall with a rack. And? Also sidious was trying to smash yoda via podiums. Was the fight circumstantial?

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#155 Edited by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 Apologies for the late reply but as usual you're blissfully unaware of your favourite character and I felt the need to retire from this particular discussion for a period of time. Anyway just to summarise the key points.

ROTS Sidious Isn't ~ ROTS Skywalker

Throughout this discussion you've switched the goalpost from saying it refers to potential to saying it never says they're equals ect. But the quote From then on he wasn't as strong as the Emperor implies he was clearly as strong as the Emperor. Furthermore it can't be referring to potential, we have a clear indicator from Lucas that Anakin's potential is twice that of Sidious. Therefore the conclusion we must draw is that the two are explicit equals in strength at that moment in time. To elaborate the quote then goes on to state that Vader is Like Darth Maul or Count Dooku indicating that he went from being ~ Sidious to ~ Maul or ~ Dooku.

Caedus Is ~ Luke

This notion is supported nowhere throughout the text of Legacy Of The Force and the mental gymnastics you took to reach this conclusion are downright asinine and ridiculous. The points have been articulated below...

Caedus "Stalemated" Luke Skywalker

There's a number of conclusions we can draw from this fight. The first being that during the opening the two exchange 7 blows, the first is somewhat parried by Caedus but still enters him and would have disabled him if not for his insane pain tolerance, the second is landed by Caedus, the third is blocked by Luke, the forth and fifth are both landed by Luke, the sixth is parried by Luke and the seventh would have landed if not for Caedus having an anchor to pull himself too. This opening engagement shows just how wide the gap is, Caedus doesn't block or dodge a single hit and lands only one in return with the two others being parried. Luke essentially stomps him right off the bat and even if I concede that Caedus didn't need the environment to survive (He did) the fact would still remain that he does not compare favourably to Luke at all. If he chooses to reengage with Luke the fight will go down the exact same and prove once again Caedus doesn't compare to Luke.

Furthermore we still have the next unanswered question. How does Luke basically beat Caedus after having a torture rack of poison slammed into him, badly injuring him? Even if I once again omit the part where Caedus pulls himself to an anchor to survive the fact would still remain that he got dominated in the initial engagement without blocking a single strike, having three landed on him, and having two of his three attempts blocked or parried and was still losing against a badly injured Luke? How does he compare favourably at all? No way in hell does this duel prove anything, certainly not parity, even if I throw you a bone or two.

Heck even after Caedus gets hit with the same poison he doesn't compare favourably given Luke has a horde of injuries such as an injured head and a broken knee in addition to that. The only time Luke fought at peak he was dominating.

Luke Can't "Ragdoll" Caedus

Your entire premise here is faulty given it relies on factually incorrect nonsense. First off Luke not touching him in the duel with TK was because he was pissed and attacked in a bloodlusted frenzy in the opening and after he was to injured to do anything.

Furthermore Luke has pinned him to a chair on end for several minutes. Now you basically conceded on this particular point and admitted it indicates a pretty vast gap but just to hammer the point home the ROTS JN implies Kenobi could have ripped free of Dooku's choke despite Dooku making him look like a fool in sabers repeatedly throughout the duel. This shows that even with a massive disparity in the force as demonstrated by the duel (Due to the nature of force augmentation) Kenobi still could have broken free of the grasp with the right amount of time. Furthermore the time implied isn't likely to be minutes which is how long Caedus had to break free yet was unable to even move a millimetre. So Caedus has no business duelling on par with Luke as demonstrated above and by this. Furthermore Revelation indicates Luke wasn't using his full power in either of those instances given it's the first time Caedus gets any idea of Luke's power and his limits so neither can be conclusive of parity.

However just to hammer the point home you've clutched to one last, desperate straw. Caedus was caught off guard so we can't say Luke can rip through his defence at will. However I'm afraid to say Richard this is not the case. During Revelation Caedus is unable to block Luke's TK attack on his fighter and instead holds it together. He tries and fails, meaning that even active defensive attempts from Caedus don't work against Luke's TK. The logic applies here, if Caedus faces Luke whatever he has, whether it be an active or passive force barrier Luke will rip straight through it. Sorry Richard but it's game over.

POV Statements

The amount of reaching and grasping at straws here is laughable and shows that you do not have a fundamental understanding of how English literature or writing novels from a 3rd person perspective actually works. You'll notice extended sections of the Legacy Of The Force books are dedicated to tailing one character alone before switching to another and so on for the entire novel. In this instance we're following Jacen and the 3rd person narrator is narrating his thoughts and actions, not giving statements of his own. Same applies to the Luke quote (Note that this also applies to the Saba quote which you so readily dismissed as a POV statement when really it's no different from these, putting your double standards on full display). This is why you will never be a top tier debater despite having spent years debating Star Wars, not just because you hold ridiculous, outdated positions that are the opposite of many but because you lack the intelligence or logical thinking to argue these stances. How do you expect to raise your champions, Valkorion, Dooku and Caedus if you can't even grasp how third person POV mechanics work in relatively basic English literature. This is the kind of stuff taught to twelve year olds, it's not complicated and I shouldn't be explaining it to you yet here we are.

Caedus's Showings Outside Of Performances Versus Luke

Given you want to argue Caedus is Luke Skywalker level you can do yourself a favour and brush up on some of his other showings. Now I don't want to do this but I will. Here it goes.

Explain how:

  • During Tempest Jacen struggles to restrain Sing and actually has minor issues with her speed (Note that while Jacen was unarmed even Vader's made a fool out of Sing under similar circumstances so it definitely doesn't look good for him).
  • During Fury he's stalemated by Kyle Katarn and some fodder Jedi until he cheap shots Katarn with the environment who actually came out looking better in the saber portion of the duel and Caedus couldn't touch him with TK (Note that Caedus's injuries were minimal and the fodder are featless, no name Jedi explicitly described as such meaning that even if we take out these two pieces of context Caedus is still only marginally better than Katarn).
  • During Fury he admits defeating Saba will be a challenge for him.

Do any of these feats scream Luke tier to you? Jacen is Plagueis tier at best which is where I hold him, a perfectly reasonable position assuming you're not sucking him off like you are, heck even Dooku level is reasonable but Luke level certainly isn't. Jacen is my favourite character in existence but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that you are overrating him and I have no sympathy for you. Have a nice day Richard.

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#156 Edited by Richard96 (5739 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

If I needed a confirm you are just a dull big baby now I have. Your appeal to personal insults alongside pathetic and asinine bias won’t help you. Don’t tag me again.

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#157 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Bias in favour of whom. Look at my username and who I debate for on these boards and you'll see that if it's anyone it's Jacen but I'm analysing the evidence logically rather than trying to fit my bias by saying stupid shit, YOU are the biased on here. Sorry, better luck next time mate.

As for the personal insults if I'm such a "big baby" you shouldn't let light taunts bother you. Clearly you lack the emotional maturity to take a jab or two, hence why you are a "big baby". Luke V Caedus has been discussed many times and it always ends with the Caedus fanbase running home with their tales between their legs just like you're doing now. I have a feeling you exited by throwing a melodramatic fit and whining about my actions because you wanted an easy way to get out of another thrashing considering I just gave you one.

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#158 Posted by mastercilghal (309 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: I agree with most of what you have said, except the things with Saba sebatyne. The fact it would take effort from caedus to defeat her is more an indication of her own skill/power rather than a proof of caedus being overrated. Furthermore there is also the matter of it being from jacen’s pov and so on. Having said that , I agree with the point you raised. The idea of caedus being equal to Luke is laughable.

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#159 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

The only way Caedus is winning is by exploiting the more esoteric parts of his skill set. He can’t win conventionally.

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#160 Posted by CuckedCurry (962 posts) - - Show Bio

Sarro Xaj, Sarro Xaj? Sarro Xaj

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#161 Posted by mastercilghal (309 posts) - - Show Bio

Sabers only likely goes to anakin,since he’s far more consistent than caedus,not to mention far more interested in lightsaber combat. In fact in the unifying force he admitted he wasn’t that great with lightsaber and his heart “just wasn’t in it”. He will put up a good fight tho.

As for round 2 , I think it is caedus who would come out on top, thanks to his esoteric powers.

Nonetheless it’s an excellent fight.

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#162 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@mastercilghal: I agree with most of what you have said, except the things with Saba sebatyne.

I'm not lowballing Saba lol, I have a high opinion of her. My point is though the fact that Caedus admits he'll struggle with her is an indication of the fact that he's far from Luke which was what this whole post was based around, given that was Richard's rather ridiculous argument.

The fact it would take effort from caedus to defeat her is more an indication of her own skill/power rather than a proof of caedus being overrated.

She's distinctly not Luke tier which is my point, this applies to Katarn too.

Furthermore there is also the matter of it being from jacen’s pov and so on.

Jacen's POV is reliable enough, he can sense her through the force, he has a grasp of her power level and his initial musing is that beating her will be tough.

Having said that , I agree with the point you raised. The idea of caedus being equal to Luke is laughable.

Glad we're on the same page.

As for round 2 , I think it is caedus who would come out on top, thanks to his esoteric powers.

I don't see how esoteric abilities will help him against a guy explicitly noted to be as powerful as Sidious. The vast power disparity will prevent Caedus from making use of them before he gets hammered, not to mention few of the abilities are actually relevant in a fight against another force user.

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#163 Posted by mastercilghal (309 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: i’m actually one of those who oppose the idea of anakin being as strong as the emperor, at least when it comes to his feats in rots. Unless he is enraged, I don’t see him reaching/surpassing that level. I am interested in discussing this with you.

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#164 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@mastercilghal: i’m actually one of those who oppose the idea of anakin being as strong as the emperor, at least when it comes to his feats in rots. Unless he is enraged, I don’t see him reaching/surpassing that level. I am interested in discussing this with you.

Interesting, PM me and we can discuss it to avoid derailing the thread.

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#165 Posted by mastercilghal (309 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: sorry if it may seem like a stupid question, but pm means private message, isn’t it?

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#166 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio
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#167 Posted by mastercilghal (309 posts) - - Show Bio