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#101 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman: Well, I'm not actually fully convinced he's above Anakin (I had him below Anakin before). Especially because the higher up you go, the smaller and smaller the gap between characters are.

I am convinced that he's at least on the border of levels 8 and 9, but I'm not too sure if he's an outright 9.

Didn't gillard liken his tier system to the earthquake scale with the difference between tiers getting bigger as you went up? Didn;t he also move sidious to being a tier 10?

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#102 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: No, Sidious is a 9. There are no 10's according to him. The scale doesn't get bigger as you go up; it gets smaller (see a level 9 vs 8 in Yoda vs Dooku to a level 8 vs level 7 - Maul vs TPM Obi-Wan, Dooku vs AotC Obi-Wan/Anakin, etc). People get packed closer together as you move up.

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#103 Posted by deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@darthjarjar:

If it wasn't Knightfall then it would be worse for Anakin.

Obviously, but still enough to beat Caedus or at least contend very well.

I didn't say that Caedus was as fast as Luke, but he is comparable.

And I didn't say you said that. I was attacking the idea of them being comparable; they kind of aren't.

I actually think that Anakin could present a difficult challenge to Yoda (only sabers). Still he's a tier below Palpatine and Yoda in speed. Caedus doesn't have any advantages?

And Anakin is in Yoda/Palpatine's tier in speed, since his level 9 status is not just taking into account skill but also physicals. Not to mention the novel calling him the fastest Jedi even before he turned to the dark side. During Knightfall, he cut down Cin Drallig about as quickly as Palpatine did Kit Fisto, if not faster, and Drallig's of a similar stock as Kit. This is in spite of him being hindered and choking Bene at the same time. So he's definitely in Yoda and Palpatine's speed tier.

What force feats allow Anakin to keep up with Caedus? I can only think of one.

Calling down a 90 x 30 metre dome in LoE, and he can do better by Knightfall.

@thesithmaster said:

Round 1: Anakin. He is quite more skilled, and manages to narrowly counter Caedus's speed advantage with aforementioned skill.

Round 2: Caedus. He's more powerful, and although Anakin has more potential, he loses due to Caedus's greater applications, feats, versatility, and speed.

No, and no. The legacy of the force novels contains statements that completely contradict these assessments.

Addressing Shooting Nova.

No, your interpretation of Luke and Caedus's abilities is directly contradicted by Luke's own assessment/narration.

Three YVH droids were left. And Jacen. Against Luke and Ben. Jacen was Luke's match, which meant Ben had to cope with three combat droids. The odds weren't good.

-Star Wars Legacy of the Force: Fury

This is on chapter 36 if you doubt me. Through sheer scaling, you're assessment can't be right. Is grandmaster Luke clearly superior? Yes. Is Caedus not able to contend with him, or is Luke able to stomp him? No. Through sheer scaling, and not even touching feats, Caedus should be significantly above Anakin, regardless of the version, unless you're going to argue that GM Luke of all people is only somewhat better than Anakin.

Addressing thesithmaster

For you, I'm focusing on your potential statement, which could only be true if Anakin > Luke in force potential, and is doubtfull even then. Reread chapter 33 of Betrayal. The tipping point for Jacen was witnessing that in every future he could see that involved Nelani bringing Lumiya in, it led to events where there was a 1v1 between Jacen and Luke, and each one of them led to Luke being beaten by Jacen, with different methods involved. Jacen's potential should be equal to Anakin.

Luke >> Jacen. No way they have the same potential. Caedus did reach his full potential I'd say or near it.

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#104 Posted by freesid_stf123 (537 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@noobsnowman: Well, I'm not actually fully convinced he's above Anakin (I had him below Anakin before). Especially because the higher up you go, the smaller and smaller the gap between characters are.

I am convinced that he's at least on the border of levels 8 and 9, but I'm not too sure if he's an outright 9.

Didn't gillard liken his tier system to the earthquake scale with the difference between tiers getting bigger as you went up? Didn;t he also move sidious to being a tier 10?

He likened it to a richter scale, meaning if you go up or down one level, your energy or power has increased or decreased approximately thirtyfold.

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#105 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

sidious hardly "decimated" luke in the actual comic(wouln't know about the audiobook though)

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#106 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Yeah, in the audio version he dances around Luke without a lightsaber and when he draws out his saber he stomps him in a few moves, IIRC. The comic has them competing for a bit.

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#107 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Yeah, in the audio version he dances around Luke without a lightsaber and when he draws out his saber he stomps him in a few moves, IIRC. The comic has them competing for a bit.

I see. Luke's improved performance in the second duel can partially be atributed to luke's training under palps.

Also, Leia "amp" operated by "unlocking" Luke's own potential, so it doesn;t have to be a temporary thing

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#108 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: His "training under Palpatine" wouldn't come close to filling the gap between the performances.

There was a huge debate on that already. However, Luke's performances post-DE definitely don't represent a Palpatine+ character, so it's more than likely that Leia's amp was, in fact, temporary.

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#109 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: His "training under Palpatine" wouldn't come close to filling the gap between the performances.

There was a huge debate on that already. However, Luke's performances post-DE definitely don't represent a Palpatine+ character, so it's more than likely that Leia's amp was, in fact, temporary.

1. Why not? In the comic iirc, Luke was indicated to have grown more powerful multiple times throughout the duration of the training. Also the audiobook could just be an outlier here given that the comic has them fighting evenly

2. Could be explained by the change of leadership in between or dark empire itself just being an outlier compared to how other post rotj sources potray force users.

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#110 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

1. How were they fighting evenly? Luke started the battle with the advantage since he threw Palpatine into the wall, but in two or three panels we have the Emperor disarming him. Sourcebooks claim that the Emperor won in a short duel as well, IIRC.

The Emperor's superiority is well-established in DE. And Luke growing several times (proof?) doesn't give him leave to go from getting humiliated by Palpatine to beating him decisively.

2. What?

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#111 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

1. Because the text alludes to them exhanging multiple strikes off panel iirc

2. Didn't the leadership over the eu change from dark empire?

3. Not sure whats the source of confusion here

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#112 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

1. Where? It was a brief lightsaber duel all the same per Handbook 3: Dark Empire.

2. That's an excuse you could use in a lot of other instances. It opens a whole new can of worms.

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#113 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

1.It states Luke "parried sidious's lethal blows" rather than simply the one we see on panel. Though regardless that doesn't stop the fight from being short or one sided

2. maybe its a can of worms worth opening. Leia also is potrayed much more capable in de than her later incarnations.

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#114 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: No reason to believe that it's anything other than the fight we see on-panel. The panels themselves are just snapshots of the fight, not every single blow thrown. So "off-panel" is correct in the sense that it's not something we actually see in the pages themselves, but it's the fight being depicted in the pages and not there's no extension of the fight like you're implying. And as you said, Luke parrying some blows doesn't preclude Sidious stomping him or winning in a brief duel, much like it didn't for Kit Fisto in RotS.

Yeah, but it complicates things dramatically. It is a valid claim, though.

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#115 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

1. yea i misremembered

2. Well we don't want to complicate your last couple of weeks here do we

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#116 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

I've actually used that argument before. People have varying receptions to it, but it's generally a valid point if there's a marked departure in authorial styles.

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#117 Edited by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

I've actually used that argument before. People have varying receptions to it, but it's generally a valid point if there's a marked departure in authorial styles.

Problem off course is de sidious doesn't actually have any post de versions to be compared against, but if we take luke's growth as permanent, people with favorable performances/ potrayals vs luke would be raised(caedus, kyp, ect.)

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#118 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman:

I think it is on neutral terms in this context because in a typical fight when both fighters are at least near equally matched in a very gruelling contest, wounds would be inflicted upon each other. The fact that Caedus amps off wounds shows that the longer the fight goes, the more it favours Caedus. The innate ability to feed off pain to an exceptional level gives Caedus an innate advantage in a typical fight in neutral ground.

It's not neutral terms when one person gets amped by their injuries and another person suffers the injuries normally. That in of itself makes this an inherently skewed fight.

It also must be mentioned that the fight ended prematurely. Had it been a fight to the death, the fight would have dragged on for much longer, with Luke prevailing as the battered victor. The fact that Luke could only barely pull through after an elongated duel with Caedus shows that significantly inferior opponents to Luke such as Knightfall Anakin wouldn't have any success in the same situation at all. Anakin's only chance of victory is to overwhelm Caedus early on in the fight, which I personally see as improbable, otherwise he straight up loses.

What would constitute a "significant inferiority" between two characters (ie. how much of a gap)? Because Anakin being on Sidious and Yoda's level doesn't put him very far behind Luke, especially considering that Luke's edge over Sidious in sabers comes down mostly to "logic" rather than actual feats, to say nothing of how inconsistent Luke is in general (and particularly in the Legacy era).

I think a more accurate description is that a fight that drags for a long time would only favour Caedus. You either hit Caedus in a fatal area, or he kills you. Luke, obviously, is one of those very small exceptions to it.

No doubt Caedus' advantage is very real against Jedi, but Sith also get stronger as a fight progresses. If it's not pain tolerance, then it's Consume Essence; feeding off negative emotions and so on. Obi-Wan attributed Anakin that advantage during their fight in the RotS junior novel. The RotS script mentions that as Anakin gets angrier throughout a fight, he gets stronger. And whilst his pain tolerance isn't quite as insane as Caedus', he still has the same "injury amp" bonus, only to a lesser extent.

So all in all, Anakin can keep up with Caedus somewhat because he too gets stronger as the fight escalates. That makes raw fighting ability more important in determining the victor here.

Also, Luke being hit by the Vong rack was a while after Jacen suffered the kidney injury. The fight was well contested even before Luke was hit with the Vong rack.

It wasn't that long after. But of course, the three-strike part happened after Jacen was amped and Luke was reeling from being struck in an old wound.

Another thing I'd like to raise in the comparison I made is the sheer difference in speed between Vjun amped Dooku and Luke. While it is true that Luke inflicted a much greater wound than Dooku did, Luke struck at a much greater level of speed compared to Dooku, which alone more than makes up for the disparity in terms of the consequential damage that followed if we compare the speed feats between Luke and Vjun amped Dooku. So while Caedus took a much more consequential cut compared to Yoda, the speed difference between Luke and Dooku more than makes up for it, and factoring in the circumstances around it, leads me to believe that Caedus' feat remains more impressive.

Dooku was amped, Yoda was hindered. Dooku still landed a cut of no consequence, whereas Luke landed what would've been a life-threatening injury, and he actually managed a stab as opposed to an inconsequential line. So again, on the basis of outcome, Luke's feat is more impressive than Dooku's, and Yoda was significantly disadvantaged by the environment on Vjun as well.

Oh true, then I can agree with that, especially when you mentioned that Jacen lost strength in that very moment. However, the fact that his reflexes and speed remained intact despite being temporarily weakened physically invalidates any notion that he lost in three strokes.

Not really. One wonders if he had the physical strength to keep up with Luke's next few blows, or even the very next blow, if he had decided not to pull himself away. That could've easily cost him his life. So in a sabers only round, that's worth taking into account.

Jacen's resourcefulness is mainly applied to compensate the significant disparity between the two in terms of force powers. So yes it's true, it does not contribute to his blade to blade prowess. I did not mention explicitly, but his resourcefulness is one of the main factors that makes him all the more complete of a fighter, and a true force to be reckoned with, even for Luke.

In other words, it applies to his overall combative prowess but is not an aspect of his blade skill. That's what I said before; you don't need to add flourishing cursory details or reword it.

The reason I'm treating this distinction as important is because when we weigh up Caedus and Anakin's abilities, I don't want to count Caedus' resourcefulness twice. I want to consider blade prowess alone when I compare it between the two of them.

I know you have Luke on a completely different level compared to Caedus, but a couple of injuries shouldn't be enough to close the significant gap between them, especially since these fights didn't involve any external amps such as a dark side nexus. I think it's reasonable to rank Caedus at least comparable to Luke on base level, with his ability to feed off pain to an exceptional level contributing to what makes the fight very close.

Well, the fact that Luke considers Caedus a match for him would definitely suggest such a thing, although as I noted in my response to DesolatorStorm, Luke has a long history of being unreliable in assessing other characters' strengths. And it's pretty much always been overrating people and overplaying threats, not the other way around.

Jacen's ability to feed off pain and get stronger is an innate ability, you can't really take it away from him.

I'm not taking that away from him; again, I'm separating his inherent prowess in combat from other aspects that influenced the fight. Additionally, Anakin too would be able to feed off pain and negative emotions to become stronger, and even if it's only to a lesser extent, it diminishes the value of Caedus' advantage in this fight.

Luke may have an old wound, but Caedus' blow carried so much force that it virtually reopened the wound, so it speaks well to Caedus' strength feats.

Unless I'm missing something, opening a freshly healed wound doesn't require much strength, lol. All you would need is contact and a minor degree of force, no? That's why freshly healed injuries are still considered tender and vulnerable?

Also, there is nothing miraculous about tagging Luke on the first hit, the fact that Caedus managed to tag Luke with such force after being amped from only one injury suggests that even before that, there already is some existing parity between the two.

Not really. Luke was defenceless when Caedus landed the roundhouse since he struck Caedus in the kidney and his blade was lodged there. Naturally, you'd expect your opponent to fall; the fact that Caedus didn't even slow and instead grew faster and stronger would no doubt have caught anyone off-guard and given him the equivalent of a free hit. The fact that Luke's lightsaber was still more or less lodged in Caedus' kidney and Jacen was literally just continuing his attack without pause means that Luke really didn't have much of a chance to block the hit from where I'm standing.

And the next few moves in the fight put to rest the notion of parity, for me.

At the end of the day, I'm pleased that this discussion has led to a reevaluation of Caedus (in part, at least) for me, and I acknowledge that he would beat Jedi Anakin for a majority. I stand by Sith Anakin matching or beating Jacen, though, at least in sabers only (his Force powers are a bit ambiguous).

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#119 Edited by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

It's not neutral terms when one person gets amped by their injuries and another person suffers the injuries normally. That in of itself makes this an inherently skewed fight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that a Jedi VS Sith fight is always inherently skewed? You did say that Sith fight stronger as the fight progresses, and even gave Anakin the injury amp too. While a Jedi naturally weakens from injuries.

What would constitute a "significant inferiority" between two characters (ie. how much of a gap)? Because Anakin being on Sidious and Yoda's level doesn't put him very far behind Luke, especially considering that Luke's edge over Sidious in sabers comes down mostly to "logic" rather than actual feats, to say nothing of how inconsistent Luke is in general (and particularly in the Legacy era).

Wait, do you mean sabers or all out? Because in sabers, Anakin isn't far behind Luke at all, and like Caedus he can give Luke a good fight. In an all out fight, yes Anakin is clearly inferior to Luke.

No doubt Caedus' advantage is very real against Jedi, but Sith also get stronger as a fight progresses. If it's not pain tolerance, then it's Consume Essence; feeding off negative emotions and so on. Obi-Wan attributed Anakin that advantage during their fight in the RotS junior novel. The RotS script mentions that as Anakin gets angrier throughout a fight, he gets stronger. And whilst his pain tolerance isn't quite as insane as Caedus', he still has the same "injury amp" bonus, only to a lesser extent.

So all in all, Anakin can keep up with Caedus somewhat because he too gets stronger as the fight escalates. That makes raw fighting ability more important in determining the victor here.

Being amplified off rage and other negative emotions is different than being amplified off pain. If it's amplified off rage, it can serve as a double edged sword because it can possibly mess up one's emotions, such as Anakin's for example. While it is true that Sith in general get stronger, they are mainly amplified off rage rather than pain, and if it is through pain, it is not a permanent amplification that lasts throughout the fight. Which is why I'm of the opinion that Caedus' injury amp and the absurd degree of pain tolerance is exclusive to him. Anakin, to my recollection, does not feed off pain to get stronger, Obi Wan managed to land blows on him during their fight but those specific wounds did not feed his strength in any way. Anakin managed to recover quickly sure, but he did not retaliate immediately despite the wound or feed off the injury to get stronger. Though he does feed off hate and anger, that is true.

Though I do admit that I sounded a bit harsh on my initial assessment. No doubt can Anakin keep up with Caedus even for a good while, but it will be a slow uphill battle for him. Feeding off negative emotions does not help wounds to the same as extent as feeding off from pain. Anakin does get stronger in a fight, but not to the same degree as Caedus.

Dooku was amped, Yoda was hindered. Dooku still landed a cut of no consequence, whereas Luke landed what would've been a life-threatening injury, and he actually managed a stab as opposed to an inconsequential line. So again, on the basis of outcome, Luke's feat is more impressive than Dooku's, and Yoda was significantly disadvantaged by the environment on Vjun as well.

When I meant Dooku's speed compared to Luke's speed, I was clearly referring to Dooku with Vjun's amplification. Also I doubt Yoda was hindered that much from Vjun's nexus, iirc it only mentioned that Dooku fed off from it only. Based on the damage inflicted and the outcome, Luke's feat is clearly better. But factoring in the context of the speed differences and other circumstances? It becomes much less clear cut. Unless you think Luke isn't that much faster than Vjun amped Dooku, then Luke's feat is better.

Not really. One wonders if he had the physical strength to keep up with Luke's next few blows, or even the very next blow, if he had decided not to pull himself away. That could've easily cost him his life. So in a sabers only round, that's worth taking into account.

Even in a sabers only round, shouldn't speed and reflexes be taken into account as well? Strength shouldn't be the prioritized factor in a sabers only confrontation. Since Jacen's speed and reflexes remained fully intact, I'd see him being able to at least evade the blow.

Taking the option of evading the strike away and things get a bit muddy. Admittedly, it becomes difficult to prove that Jacen would have effectively blocked the blow, and it is plausible that Luke could have gutted him there if there isn't the option to evade it. However, this is not the only occasion when Jacen lacked the strength to continually parry Luke's blows. He could have kicked Luke's knees like he did in the other encounter. There are many possibilities.

In other words, it applies to his overall combative prowess but is not an aspect of his blade skill. That's what I said before; you don't need to add flourishing cursory details or reword it.

The reason I'm treating this distinction as important is because when we weigh up Caedus and Anakin's abilities, I don't want to count Caedus' resourcefulness twice. I want to consider blade prowess alone when I compare it between the two of them.

Fair enough.

Well, the fact that Luke considers Caedus a match for him would definitely suggest such a thing, although as I noted in my response to DesolatorStorm, Luke has a long history of being unreliable in assessing other characters' strengths. And it's pretty much always been overrating people and overplaying threats, not the other way around.

I think it's part of the narration rather than it being Luke's opinion, which further cements the idea that Caedus is a match for Luke. I've attached the extended version of the text, I'll let you decide for yourself:

Beyond Jacen, the metal shutters were coming down across the viewports. It wasn't surprisng; the explosions had to have weakened the viewport housings, and the ship's diagnostics were sealing everything up before the atmosphere could explosively escape. Besides, all of a sudden there were more ships to see out there, and some of them were approaching the Anakin Solo, laser batteries flashing. Luke gestured toward Jacen. Jacen raised his lightsaber and his left hand, ready to ward off any attack, but Luke's gesture was a diversion. His exertion in the Force picked up one of the YVH droids and hurtled it backward, against the faltering viewport.

The transparisteel buckled and the droid was lost to space. Air, rushing past the Jedi, tugged them forward, and Jacen staggered back toward the viewports, but then the shutters came down, sealing the bridge.

Meanwhile Luke felt a pained exertion in the Force as Saba leapt up to the walkway and walked-limped-off the bridge.

Three YVH droids were left. And Jacen. Against Luke and Ben. Jacen was Luke's match, which meant Ben had to cope with three combat droids. The odds weren't good. Then the odds changed.

As he batted blasterfire with his lightsaber, Luke felt a surge of emotion in the Force: innocent joy, a little girl's delight at going home.

Jacen visibly paled. "Allana. . ." Suddenly he charged, crossing his own combat droids' streams of blasterfire, forcing them to cease fire for brief moments.

He came at Luke but leapt laterally, flying across empty air to one of the doorways leading aft, utterly ignoring the Jedi.

Luke snapped a command to his son: "Extract! Warn Leia, Jacen's coming!" He got his lightsaber up and deflected new streams of blasterfire, then began backing toward the bridge's blast doors, toward his son.

I'm not taking that away from him; again, I'm separating his inherent prowess in combat from other aspects that influenced the fight. Additionally, Anakin too would be able to feed off pain and negative emotions to become stronger, and even if it's only to a lesser extent, it diminishes the value of Caedus' advantage in this fight.

As stated above, feeding off negative emotions can play as a double edged sword as it can potentially hinder one's fighting abilities rather than amplify it. Caedus' advantage is much more consistent and reliable, though I do acknowledge that the advantage is lessened because Anakin's advantage to feed off anger, especially at the peak of his emotions. Regardless, Caedus' ability to virtually ignore wounds and continue attacking is something that I can't see Anakin replicating, which serves as an advantage nonetheless.

Unless I'm missing something, opening a freshly healed wound doesn't require much strength, lol. All you would need is contact and a minor degree of force, no? That's why freshly healed injuries are still considered tender and vulnerable?

I re-read the text and I realised that Luke wasn't really that injured to begin with. The text clearly states that the scar was 'barely healed', so you can't really open a wound that is already healed, as recent as it is. If Luke was still recuperating from the wound then I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, but he was already fully healed from it and it only left a small scar, so Luke's injury was, at most, very small. So now that I think about it, Caedus' strength feats are pretty insane.

Not really. Luke was defenceless when Caedus landed the roundhouse since he struck Caedus in the kidney and his blade was lodged there. Naturally, you'd expect your opponent to fall; the fact that Caedus didn't even slow and instead grew faster and stronger would no doubt have caught anyone off-guard and given him the equivalent of a free hit. The fact that Luke's lightsaber was still more or less lodged in Caedus' kidney and Jacen was literally just continuing his attack without pause means that Luke really didn't have much of a chance to block the hit from where I'm standing.

Did it mention explicitly in the text that Luke was caught off guard by Caedus' increased speed? And even if so, the fact that Luke was armed dosen't make him defenseless, its just that he could not react in time to Caedus' roundhouse kick.

At the end of the day, I'm pleased that this discussion has led to a reevaluation of Caedus (in part, at least) for me, and I acknowledge that he would beat Jedi Anakin for a majority. I stand by Sith Anakin matching or beating Jacen, though, at least in sabers only (his Force powers are a bit ambiguous).

Indeed, our opinions only differ slightly, tbh. Whoever wins the matchup, it would be a brutal fight and a sight to see.

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#120 Edited by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

Something small I want to add, while it's true that Caedus feeds of his own pain and anger (like any Sith to be honest) that doesn't neglect that the injury is still there. He didn't feel any pain when his arm was severed but he recalls later on that it did still hinder him.

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#121 Posted by Wewlad80 (3411 posts) - - Show Bio

Mismatch

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#122 Posted by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: Yes, the injury is there, but the argument is that Caedus handles injuries much, much better than any other force user (except Sion), all other Sith included. I haven't heard any other Sith being able to virtually ignore the wound and continue the motion of attacking. This is a valuable asset Caedus has that will serve well against opponents that can at least pose a significant threat to him.

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#123 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthduelist9: Yes, the injury is there, but the argument is that Caedus handles injuries much, much better than any other force user (except Sion), all other Sith included. I haven't heard any other Sith being able to virtually ignore the wound and continue the motion of attacking. This is a valuable asset Caedus has that will serve well against opponents that can at least pose a significant threat to him.

Yes of course that's an good point for him but I was aiming at the fact that Nova (I think?) said that Caedus drawing on his pain is an amplification of his power (amp) rather than a disadvantage which, looking at Caedus's reflection of the fight, is blatantly not true.

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#124 Posted by Dispray (67 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus easily.

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#125 Posted by deactivated-5c5f0d1034d42 (54 posts) - - Show Bio

Reading through the comments I noticed how many refere to caedus’ fight with Luke as a comparison,yet no one pays attention to the fact that caedus grew stronger after his fight with his uncle.

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#126 Edited by Subline (7024 posts) - - Show Bio
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#127 Posted by GrandmasterGoat (67 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin in all rounds. Caedus' best dueling feats (losing to Luke in three blows/contending but losing to Luke in spite of Luke being copiously injured/stalemating Jaina with negative circumstances) are overshadowed by Anakin utterly decimating Dooku, or him pushing back Obi-Wan despite being all over the place emotionally (which would essentially create a schism in his ability to draw on the Force).

As for Force feats, Anakin's more powerful. His feats are just better. Moving a dreadnought fast enough to intercept a missile is as good as any feat Caedus has, and Anakin did this shortly after AotC.

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#128 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3420 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on whether it's base ROTS Anakin, Invisible Hand Anakin or KF Vader.

KF Vader and Invisible Hand Anakin take but base Anakin could potentially lose.

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#129 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin wins with at best mid difficulty. Or at least Vader during Operation Knightfall or Invisible Hand Anakin win. Base Anakin however does lose after a good fight.

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#130 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

@generalkenobi2: Caedus grew far stronger but was never a true rival to his uncle, later during Revelation Caedus fails to block Luke's TK attack on his fighter outright, instead holding the thing together through shear willpower, an incredible feat but one which highlights that Caedus was never going to reach his uncle's level.

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#131 Posted by Helloman (28550 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus wins.

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#132 Posted by deactivated-5c5f0d1034d42 (54 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: it’s true ,but that caedus is more powerful than the one who faced Luke,and would definitely beat anakin in a very small majority.

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#133 Posted by Richard96 (5644 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin gets rekt.

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#134 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio
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#135 Posted by Richard96 (5644 posts) - - Show Bio
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#136 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Vastly better feats and scaling.

Anakin has been labelled as strong as the Emperor, Caedus in no way is above ROTS Sidious at all. Caedus is like Plagueis tier lol.

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#137 Posted by Richard96 (5644 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

“Anakin has been labelled as strong as the Emperor, Caedus in no way is above ROTS Sidious at all. Caedus is like Plagueis tier lol.”

Anakin, if we assume here the dark side version, has been labeled as a tier 9 duelist, nothing else. He is in the same tier of ROTS sidious as swordsman, not surely as force user. Caedus is vastly stronger than him as force user, given his superiority to Vader, who is more powerful than anakin, and it is surely in the same tier as swordsman, or even superior, given his feats with GM Luke (that is most likely a superior duelist than ROTS Sidious).

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#138 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Anakin, if we assume here the dark side version, has been labeled as a tier 9 duelist, nothing else.

False, Lucas specifically notes he's as strong as the Emperor, referring to force power.

He is in the same tier of ROTS sidious as swordsman, not surely as force user.

See above.

Caedus is vastly stronger than him as force user,

Nope.

given his superiority to Vader,

The same Vader who as per Lucas is relative in power to Maul and Dooku.

who is more powerful than anakin,

Per Lucas, as of ESB Vader was vastly weaker than Anakin and Lucas has also permanently confined him to Dooku/Maul level, both of whom are fodder to Anakin.

and it is surely in the same tier as swordsman,

Given he admitted he'd struggle with Saba that seems unlikely.

or even superior,

Lol.

given his feats with GM Luke

Where he lost in 7 blows and had to fall back on environmental cheap shots?

(that is most likely a superior duelist than ROTS Sidious).

Obviously.

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#139 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16249 posts) - - Show Bio

Knightfall Annie takes it. Normally, tho, I have them more-or-less splitting.

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#140 Edited by Richard96 (5644 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

“False, Lucas specifically notes he's as strong as the Emperor, referring to force power.”

Quote?

“Per Lucas, as of ESB Vader was vastly weaker than Anakin and Lucas has also permanently confined him to Dooku/Maul level, both of whom are fodder to Anakin.”

As duelist. Quote for Vader being weaker than anakin in the force?

“Given he admitted he'd struggle with Saba that seems unlikely.”

And contended with GM Luke who is arguably the stronger duelist ever.

“Where he lost in 7 blows and had to fall back on environmental cheap shots?”

I won’t return on the usual and ridiculous circumstances built ad hoc to lower Jacen. You destroyed them in the CaV Caedus vs dooku and maul. You changed idea?

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#141 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Quote?

Ok:

“And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.”

George Lucas, The Cult Of Darth Vader

How does Caedus win again?

As duelist. Quote for Vader being weaker than anakin in the force?

Given Anakin was stated to be as strong as the Emperor meanwhile Lucas says Vader is relative to Maul and Dooku (See above quote) it's fairly self evident.

And contended with GM Luke who is arguably the stronger duelist ever.

Though Caedus did admirably and wasn't outright blitzed, managing to negate Luke's initial attack and then land a kick on him which is more than I can say for most SW characters if they were to go up against GM Luke he still lost quickly and had ton resort to using the environment. In any case, admitting parity with Saba is a far cry away from giving Luke a good fight.

I won’t return on the usual and ridiculous circumstances built ad hoc to lower Jacen.

Since when is not being GM Luke tier a bad thing? Caedus ranks roughly around Plagueis level to be entirely honest.

You destroyed them in the CaV Caedus vs dooku and maul.

If by destroyed you mean constructed one of the worst openers ever that was completely blown away by my second post which I'm rather proud of (And I recommend you read, it does justice to Jacen).

You changed idea?

Yes, I accepted the irrefutable fact that based off Caedus being unable to TK a chair simply because Luke tapped it with his power, getting casually ragdolled by Luke and being unable to block Luke in the force as well as being dead to rights within 7 blows of the duel against Luke that he simply isn't comparable to his uncle like I originally claimed and is not a peer to Yoda either (Which I again claimed out of bias towards Jacen) but rather more in line with Plagueis. I've improved as a debater and accepted the irrefutable evidence and instead chose to rep my boy as what he really is.

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#142 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2586 posts) - - Show Bio

The quote could be interpreted to mean that way, but that is not the only interpretation of the quote( Lucas saying Anakin is as strong as Sidious) so it is not a definitive piece of evidence.

On topic, Anakin in a great fight.

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#143 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3420 posts) - - Show Bio

The quote could be interpreted to mean that way, but that is not the only interpretation of the quote( Lucas saying Anakin is as strong as Sidious) so it is not a definitive piece of evidence.

On topic, Anakin in a great fight.

What alternative interpretation is there?

Also I'm working on getting back to you in that other thread but I'm hardcore procrastinating and whenever I actually feel like writing out posts I end up using that energy to write CaV posts.

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#144 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2586 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3 said:
@lordofthelight said:

The quote could be interpreted to mean that way, but that is not the only interpretation of the quote( Lucas saying Anakin is as strong as Sidious) so it is not a definitive piece of evidence.

On topic, Anakin in a great fight.

What alternative interpretation is there?

Also I'm working on getting back to you in that other thread but I'm hardcore procrastinating and whenever I actually feel like writing out posts I end up using that energy to write CaV posts.

Lucas is talking about how he would have become as strong as Sidious to replace him, but that it didn't happen because of Obi Wan. You know, that could just have been Lucas saying how he wasn't as strong as the emperor "from then on", indicating Vader's potential, not his previous power that he would just make a random note to.

And indeed, the context of the quote is about Vader's potential, not his power, about how he would someday replace Sidious and that it was screwed by Obi Wan in their battle. Idk, it is just as valid an interpretation compared to JS77's interpretation, especially considering the context it was said by Lucas there.

No need to rush. You can reply or not at your convenience.

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#145 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2586 posts) - - Show Bio

Note, Lucas is talking about how Vader would replace him but couldn't because of Obi Wan by their battle. He says after that "from then on Vader wasn't as powerful as the emperor" and clearly he is talking about Vader's potential since he commented on a prolonged period of time.

He could just as easily have been trying to say that Vader would never become as strong as him( and that is more likely you see, that that is the idea he was saying) than saying that Vader was as strong as him before( and that opens up even more problems than before) in that paragraph

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#147 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: IMO I think it's referring to the past, from then on implies he was previously, and it doesn't make much sense for it to be referring to potential when not only does it reference the past but Lucas has explicitly noted Vader's potential power is 2x that of Sidious which doesn't go hand in hand with this statement, I think it's fairly self evident Lucas is referencing power, not potential.

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#148 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3420 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight: IMO I think it's referring to the past, from then on implies he was previously, and it doesn't make much sense for it to be referring to potential when not only does it reference the past but Lucas has explicitly noted Vader's potential power is 2x that of Sidious which doesn't go hand in hand with this statement, I think it's fairly self evident Lucas is referencing power, not potential.

This tbh.

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#149 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2586 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77 said:

@lordofthelight: IMO I think it's referring to the past, from then on implies he was previously, and it doesn't make much sense for it to be referring to potential when not only does it reference the past but Lucas has explicitly noted Vader's potential power is 2x that of Sidious which doesn't go hand in hand with this statement, I think it's fairly self evident Lucas is referencing power, not potential.

The key phrase being "from then on".

If you really think that it is not referring to his continued growth but only one point in time, then 19 BBY Vader=Maul/Dooku. And that Vader didn't grow much from then on.

The phrase "from then on" clearly implies that he doesn't have the potential to surpass Palpatine. He isn't referring to Anakin's potential lol

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#150 Posted by Richard96 (5644 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

About the Lucas quote, LOTL already addressed it. I was about to say what he said, basically.

“Though Caedus did admirably and wasn't outright blitzed, managing to negate Luke's initial attack and then land a kick on him which is more than I can say for most SW characters if they were to go up against GM Luke he still lost quickly and had ton resort to using the environment. In any case, admitting parity with Saba is a far cry away from giving Luke a good fight.”

Caedus got ambushed and cheapshotted ad the beginning, yet he managed to hurt badly Luke who was bloodlusted. The quote about Saba is from Jacen’s POV, hence subjective and not definitive. He could have understimated himself.

“Yes, I accepted the irrefutable fact that based off Caedus being unable to TK a chair simply because Luke tapped it with his power, getting casually ragdolled by Luke”

After being caught completely off guard and with his force defenses lowered.

“Luke in the force as well as being dead to rights within 7 blows of the duel against”

That never happened, cause if would have happened Caedus would have died there. Luke was going for the kill, with the surprise effect advantage, yet he could have kill Jacen only after a prolonged fight.