• 165 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
Avatar image for deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1
#51 Posted by deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjarjar: Are we talking about Knightfall Vader? If so, his powers compare to Sidious. He can win.

Caedus is hardly comparable to Luke in speed. Luke tagged his kidney with his first strike. He's considerably faster than Jacen. It's a noticeably bigger gap then, say, Dooku vs Yoda in speed. And Anakin's speed is in league with Yoda and Palpatine's; Caedus has no advantages there.

If it wasn't Knightfall then it would be worse for Anakin.

I didn't say that Caedus was as fast as Luke, but he is comparable. I actually think that Anakin could present a difficult challenge to Yoda (only sabers). Still he's a tier below Palpatine and Yoda in speed. Caedus doesn't have any advantages? What force feats allow Anakin to keep up with Caedus? I can only think of one.

Avatar image for shootingnova
#52 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjarjar:

If it wasn't Knightfall then it would be worse for Anakin.

Obviously, but still enough to beat Caedus or at least contend very well.

I didn't say that Caedus was as fast as Luke, but he is comparable.

And I didn't say you said that. I was attacking the idea of them being comparable; they kind of aren't.

I actually think that Anakin could present a difficult challenge to Yoda (only sabers). Still he's a tier below Palpatine and Yoda in speed. Caedus doesn't have any advantages?

And Anakin is in Yoda/Palpatine's tier in speed, since his level 9 status is not just taking into account skill but also physicals. Not to mention the novel calling him the fastest Jedi even before he turned to the dark side. During Knightfall, he cut down Cin Drallig about as quickly as Palpatine did Kit Fisto, if not faster, and Drallig's of a similar stock as Kit. This is in spite of him being hindered and choking Bene at the same time. So he's definitely in Yoda and Palpatine's speed tier.

What force feats allow Anakin to keep up with Caedus? I can only think of one.

Calling down a 90 x 30 metre dome in LoE, and he can do better by Knightfall.

Avatar image for aotd
#53 Posted by AotD (619 posts) - - Show Bio

what`s mean composite anakin? is it when he at his full potential? if it is then annie would destroy caedus with goddamn toothpick instead lightsaber.

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#54 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjarjar: lol the ole "he so fast he blitz" argument. Debunk so many times.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1
#55 Edited by deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjarjar:

If it wasn't Knightfall then it would be worse for Anakin.

Obviously, but still enough to beat Caedus or at least contend very well.

I didn't say that Caedus was as fast as Luke, but he is comparable.

And I didn't say you said that. I was attacking the idea of them being comparable; they kind of aren't.

I actually think that Anakin could present a difficult challenge to Yoda (only sabers). Still he's a tier below Palpatine and Yoda in speed. Caedus doesn't have any advantages?

And Anakin is in Yoda/Palpatine's tier in speed, since his level 9 status is not just taking into account skill but also physicals. Not to mention the novel calling him the fastest Jedi even before he turned to the dark side. During Knightfall, he cut down Cin Drallig about as quickly as Palpatine did Kit Fisto, if not faster, and Drallig's of a similar stock as Kit. This is in spite of him being hindered and choking Bene at the same time. So he's definitely in Yoda and Palpatine's speed tier.

Cin Drallig kinda got ambushed but he still had no chance against Anakin. Though even if he can approach them, it doesn't mean he's just as fast. I thought Palaptine was a 10, but I think he's equal to Yoda is speed so I guess he's a 9. I think this only really counts in Disney canon though. In Legends (where Caedus is and where we get Anakin's feats) we go by feats and maybe accolades to back them up.

What force feats allow Anakin to keep up with Caedus? I can only think of one.

Calling down a 90 x 30 metre dome in LoE, and he can do better by Knightfall.

That was the one I was thinking of :P I don't see that as something he can replicate easily. Caedus just focused more on the force than Anakin did and trained for muuuuuch longer. Do you think Anakin (Knightfall) would be able to take Luke as well as Caedus did?

Avatar image for shootingnova
#56 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjarjar:

Cin Drallig kinda got ambushed but he still had no chance against Anakin.

Where is it said that he was ambushed?

Though even if he can approach them, it doesn't mean he's just as fast. I thought Palaptine was a 10, but I think he's equal to Yoda is speed so I guess he's a 9. I think this only really counts in Disney canon though. In Legends (where Caedus is and where we get Anakin's feats) we go by feats and maybe accolades to back them up.

No, he's a 9. Nobody is 10 (that would mean perfection, which is impossible). And the system counts in both Canon and Legends.

That was the one I was thinking of :P I don't see that as something he can replicate easily.

Why not? As Darth Vader, Anakin embraces the dark side (so the "enraged" argument doesn't work), and he factually grows more powerful upon joining the Sith as well.

Caedus just focused more on the force than Anakin did and trained for muuuuuch longer.

He trained for longer, but his potential was far less. Not seeing where he focused more on the Force.

Do you think Anakin (Knightfall) would be able to take Luke as well as Caedus did?

Far better. Jacen's contention was down to his pain tolerance; in blade-to-blade combat, he was stomped.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1
#57 Edited by deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@darthjarjar:

Cin Drallig kinda got ambushed but he still had no chance against Anakin.

Where is it said that he was ambushed?

I don't think he was expecting Anakin, one of the most popular Jedi to barge in and choke/kill him and his apprentices. I don't think that he could do anything to Anakin though, just last a bit longer if he was prepared.

Though even if he can approach them, it doesn't mean he's just as fast. I thought Palaptine was a 10, but I think he's equal to Yoda is speed so I guess he's a 9. I think this only really counts in Disney canon though. In Legends (where Caedus is and where we get Anakin's feats) we go by feats and maybe accolades to back them up.

No, he's a 9. Nobody is 10 (that would mean perfection, which is impossible). And the system counts in both Canon and Legends.

That was the one I was thinking of :P I don't see that as something he can replicate easily.

Why not? As Darth Vader, Anakin embraces the dark side (so the "enraged" argument doesn't work), and he factually grows more powerful upon joining the Sith as well.

Good point. Though I guess this means that Obi-Wan was equaling Anakin's force push in ROTS?

Caedus just focused more on the force than Anakin did and trained for muuuuuch longer.

Maybe, but his potential was far less. Obi-Wan's was even below that. Though Obi-Wan is one of my favorite Jedi because he is pretty weak in the force but he worked so hard to contend with even Anakin (who was a pushover when it came to the force).

Do you think Anakin (Knightfall) would be able to take Luke as well as Caedus did?

Far better. Jacen's contention was down to his pain tolerance; in blade-to-blade combat, he was stomped.

Exactly, can Anakin take as much punishment as Caedus will? I think he can at times, but not all the time. Jacen can get stabbed in the gut and still fight for a time.

Avatar image for shootingnova
#58 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjarjar:

I don't think he was expecting Anakin, one of the most popular Jedi to barge in and choke/kill him and his apprentices. I don't think that he could do anything to Anakin though, just last a bit longer if he was prepared.

Pretty sure he knew. Either way, not an ambush.

Good point. Though I guess this means that Obi-Wan was equaling Anakin's force push in ROTS?

At that point, Anakin was emotionally conflicted and his powers were massively obstructed.

Exactly, can Anakin take as much punishment as Caedus will? I think he can at times, but not all the time. Jacen can get stabbed in the gut and still fight for a time.

Perhaps not, but my point is that he wouldn't be stabbed in the gut nearly as quickly. Blade-to-blade, he would contend infinitely better. And he'd do better overall.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1
#59 Posted by deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjarjar:

I don't think he was expecting Anakin, one of the most popular Jedi to barge in and choke/kill him and his apprentices. I don't think that he could do anything to Anakin though, just last a bit longer if he was prepared.

Pretty sure he knew. Either way, not an ambush.

Good point. Though I guess this means that Obi-Wan was equaling Anakin's force push in ROTS?

At that point, Anakin was emotionally conflicted and his powers were massively obstructed.

I'm aware of the argument and I used to agree with it completely, but what source is there for that? If anything he should be enraged at Obi-Wan. I know he was emotionally conflicted at least. But I don't know what to think.

Exactly, can Anakin take as much punishment as Caedus will? I think he can at times, but not all the time. Jacen can get stabbed in the gut and still fight for a time.

Perhaps not, but my point is that he wouldn't be stabbed in the gut nearly as quickly. Blade-to-blade, he would contend infinitely better. And he'd do better overall.

Infinitely better? I prefer Anakin and he might be my favorite Jedi or top 3, but aren't you low balling Caedus a BIT? Or maybe I overrated Caedus most of my information from him comes from Wookiepedia and other people since I haven't read the his books in years and can't remember them (I am going through them now and am about to reread Plagueis).

Avatar image for shootingnova
#60 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjarjar:

1. Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. And, well, common sense. Anakin's infinitely more powerful than Obi-Wan.

2. Caedus was near-blitzed by Luke and proceeded to be stomped again in a few moves despite the circumstances favouring him enormously. I analysed it here: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-caedus-vs-count-dooku-read-op-750656/#js-message-47

Yes, Anakin would do much better in terms of actual blade-to-blade combat. Caedus relied entirely on his pain tolerance.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a98875cd0f94
#61 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Anakin. He is quite more skilled, and manages to narrowly counter Caedus's speed advantage with aforementioned skill.

Round 2: Caedus. He's more powerful, and although Anakin has more potential, he loses due to Caedus's greater applications, feats, versatility, and speed.

Avatar image for laflux
#62 Posted by laflux (24722 posts) - - Show Bio

Shit Caedus' rep on the vine has fallen.....

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#63 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: as it should. A lot of the empty ass hype for Raven, Caedus, Exar Kun, and more has fallen. It's a positive direction IMO

Avatar image for deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1
#64 Posted by deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjarjar:

1. Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. And, well, common sense. Anakin's infinitely more powerful than Obi-Wan.

2. Caedus was near-blitzed by Luke and proceeded to be stomped again in a few moves despite the circumstances favouring him enormously. I analysed it here: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-caedus-vs-count-dooku-read-op-750656/#js-message-47

Yes, Anakin would do much better in terms of actual blade-to-blade combat. Caedus relied entirely on his pain tolerance.

I still disagree with you on some things but I'm a big fan of yours. I love how you school fanboys.

Avatar image for freesid_stf123
#65 Posted by freesid_stf123 (537 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm assuming Anakin is fighting as his best, in which case he takes Caedus to the curb.

Avatar image for azronger
#66 Posted by Azronger (4325 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin stomps

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#67 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16246 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL @ Anakin stomping.

Jacen wins.

Online
Avatar image for emperor339
#68 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus should win this, but Anakin puts up a fight

Avatar image for azronger
#69 Posted by Azronger (4325 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: Do you think it's also ridiculous to say Yoda stomps Caedus?

Avatar image for greysentinel365
#70 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6005 posts) - - Show Bio

Hang on just let me examine the title of the thread closely.

"Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Caedus"

No Yoda here.

Caedus wins in an excellent fight.

Avatar image for richard96
#71 Edited by Richard96 (5644 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus would have an enormous trouble in sabers , but I think he can get a very slight majority. In an all out fight , he takes a solid majority

Avatar image for sirfizzwhizz
#72 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's see, multiple people side with Anakin beating Jacen. Many more feel Jacen is wanked to high Hell and is not a legit challenge to Luke.

Same SW Caedus fans come in and post Jacen wins. Well, the Jacen fandom bound to happen again anyway. I mean he is able to fight evenly with "Der Grandmaster Luuuuuke!" Lololol

Avatar image for richard96
#73 Posted by Richard96 (5644 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol at caedus being stomped

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#74 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16246 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
Avatar image for azronger
#75 Edited by Azronger (4325 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: I have Anakin and Yoda on the same level. Why do you hold Caedus so highly?

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#76 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16246 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: I only have Zonakin on the same level as Yoda. Standard Anakin really isn't.

Not getting stomped by Yoda isn't neccessarily really high; but if Luke couldn't really "stomp" Jacen, then I fail to see how someone considerably inferior to him could do it. Also Caedus is canonically better than Knightfall Anakin anyways. :up:

Online
Avatar image for azronger
#77 Edited by Azronger (4325 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: Yes he is, canonically.

Luke did stomp Jacen, though.

Are you referring to that WotC quote? Well, I guess then yeah. Someone should contact Chee to settle it once and for all, though.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#78 Edited by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say Knightfall Anakin beats Caedus. Caedus would win against any other versions.

Avatar image for noobsnowman
#79 Edited by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

I think there is a lot of misconceptions regarding the Luke VS Caedus being thrown about here. Going to address them in one big block of text and hopefully clear things up.

1. Luke managed to tag Caedus on the first hit.

Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.

Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.

But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.

I think there's a lot of context that is needed to be addressed with how the fight started. First, Luke stealthed himself in the force from everyone except Ben. Not even Jacen could sense him, and he even went as far as to reject Ben's taunts that Luke was nearby. Luke was clearly bloodlusted there, he saw his son being tortured so he wanted to end the fight with Caedus swiftly by disabling him.

The notion of Caedus being near blitzed here is clearly contradicted by the text. As soon as Luke came off stealth and tried to kill Caedus in one blow, Caedus reactively ignited his lightsaber at the same time to attempt to block the strike.

But it didn't end there, Luke was aiming for the kidney instead of the head unlike what Caedus predicted. Caedus' reflexes further extended to realising that his initial perception of Luke's attack was incorrect, and defended himself accordingly, albeit barely. That itself is an insane feat for Caedus.

Compare this to another incident like Dooku tagging Yoda on Vjun. Like Caedus, Yoda was preoccupied by attempting to save Whirry from death, similar to Caedus being occupied with interrogating Ben. The difference here is that Yoda was aware of Dooku's presence, while Caedus was not aware of Luke's presence until the very last second. I think Caedus' feat is far more impressive, especially given that the assailant is a superior opponent and under worse circumstances.

2. Caedus lost in three strokes

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.

Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.

The underlined is where some people claimed that Caedus lost to Luke in three strokes. The idea behind this claim is that without Jacen being able to extend his hand to the rack, he would have been cut down there. But no evidence shows that he was doing it out of desperation, or that he was panicking that he grabbed the rack to save himself an amputation (refer to the Katarn fight). In neutral ground, it would have been translated to either blocking it after failing the slash, or just leaping away to evade the attack. Evidence in the text supports this, as similar to Luke's first strike, Jacen was already in motion when Luke tried to strike, and Luke struck in the area where Jacen 'should have been'. So no, Jacen reacted preemptively, rather than desperately needing an object to cling to. In fact, Jacen pulled onto the rack to bait Luke to a position where he could slam him with the thorn bed, a creative tactic on Caedus' part:

Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.

Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.

The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall.

Further evidence to Jacen being able to evade it on neutral ground is further supported by other parts of the text. In this case, Caedus was able to react to blows mid air while suffering from the impact of Luke's kick, like this:

Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-

-which Jacen ducked.

Caedus could react to Luke in far worse situations that would have finished an opponent that is considerably inferior to Luke (eg. how Maul defeated Qui Gon, Sidious killing Savage) without needing a rack whatsoever. So how would one expect me to believe that Caedus actually needed the rack to evade Luke's strike if he managed to survive much worse situations than that without one?

3. Caedus had the environmental advantage in their fight

Yeah, no. Luke had his fair share of using the environment to defeat Caedus, as shown here:

Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head. Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.

Jacen went flying, and it required only a soft nudge to steer him into a tendril-draped rack in the far corner. He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green.

Luke literally replicated what Caedus did to Luke a while ago,to bait Caedus to a vulnerable position so that he could hit him with a Force Wave while Caedus least expected it.

Furthermore, Luke had his fair share of using the environment to defeat Jacen, because he specifically aimed his force wave attack at the rack so Jacen would be trapped there. So why claim that Caedus had any sort of environmental advantage when Luke also used the environment to defeat Caedus?

So yeah, Caedus isn't 'clearly outclassed' by Luke. If anything, he is giving Luke hell in sabers and can loosely compete in Force powers. As for this fight, considering Anakin's placement being on Yoda and RotS Sidious' level, he would give Caedus a great challenge, but Caedus would ultimately come out on top due to his superior combative mastery.

Avatar image for shootingnova
#80 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman:

I think there's a lot of context that is needed to be addressed with how the fight started. First, Luke stealthed himself in the force from everyone except Ben. Not even Jacen could sense him, and he even went as far as to reject Ben's taunts that Luke was nearby. Luke was clearly bloodlusted there, he saw his son being tortured so he wanted to end the fight with Caedus swiftly by disabling him.

The notion of Caedus being near blitzed here is clearly contradicted by the text. As soon as Luke came off stealth and tried to kill Caedus in one blow, Caedus reactively ignited his lightsaber at the same time to attempt to block the strike.

But it didn't end there, Luke was aiming for the kidney instead of the head unlike what Caedus predicted. Caedus' reflexes further extended to realising that his initial perception of Luke's attack was incorrect, and defended himself accordingly, albeit barely. That itself is an insane feat for Caedus.

Compare this to another incident like Dooku tagging Yoda on Vjun. Like Caedus, Yoda was preoccupied by attempting to save Whirry from death, similar to Caedus being occupied with interrogating Ben. The difference here is that Yoda was aware of Dooku's presence, while Caedus was not aware of Luke's presence until the very last second. I think Caedus' feat is far more impressive, especially given that the assailant is a superior opponent and under worse circumstances.

Well, it's fair to say that Caedus wouldn't normally be blitzed by Luke, which is why nobody has ventured that argument yet, but indeed, the opening strike is much the equivalent of being blitzed. Of course, as you have noted, the circumstances surrounding Jacen's obliviousness to Luke keep it from happening again in a real fight, but

Your comparison with Yoda is valid in terms of the circumstances, but you failed to note the actual outcome of the attacks; Dooku managed only a negligible line on Yoda's side as opposed to a blow through the kidney like Luke did.

2. Caedus lost in three strokes

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.

Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.

The underlined is where some people claimed that Caedus lost to Luke in three strokes. The idea behind this claim is that without Jacen being able to extend his hand to the rack, he would have been cut down there. But no evidence shows that he was doing it out of desperation, or that he was panicking that he grabbed the rack to save himself an amputation (refer to the Katarn fight). In neutral ground, it would have been translated to either blocking it after failing the slash, or just leaping away to evade the attack. Evidence in the text supports this, as similar to Luke's first strike, Jacen was already in motion when Luke tried to strike, and Luke struck in the area where Jacen 'should have been'. So no, Jacen reacted preemptively, rather than desperately needing an object to cling to. In fact, Jacen pulled onto the rack to bait Luke to a position where he could slam him with the thorn bed, a creative tactic on Caedus' part:

Further evidence to Jacen being able to evade it on neutral ground is further supported by other parts of the text. In this case, Caedus was able to react to blows mid air while suffering from the impact of Luke's kick, like this:

Caedus could react to Luke in far worse situations that would have finished an opponent that is considerably inferior to Luke (eg. how Maul defeated Qui Gon, Sidious killing Savage) without needing a rack whatsoever. So how would one expect me to believe that Caedus actually needed the rack to evade Luke's strike if he managed to survive much worse situations than that?

The problem here is that with those three blows, Jacen was knocked to his knees, had some teeth broken and became so enfeebled that his slash at Luke's thighs was explicitly noted as being "weak". Note that Jacen was actually amped by the pain of the kidney wound at this point while Luke was hindered by the pain of being struck in an old wound. So the fact that Luke was reducing him to that in a few moves is proof of a rather significant disparity here.

Whether Caedus was planning the pull to be followed up by hurling the Vong rack at Luke or whether he was simply pulling himself away out of desperation and managed to creatively think of that tactic on the fly is up for debate, either being impressive for Jacen. But the actual performance up till then is rather poor for someone who's purportedly a near-equal of Luke's. Regardless of whether Jacen would've died there or not, he was still more or less stomped then.

3. Caedus had the environmental advantage in their fight

Not sure if that argument has been made recently; it's a rather old one. However, there's a pretty strong substitute argument in its place: that Jacen thrives off pain and is actually amped by it, whereas Luke gets genuinely hurt. That's a pretty significant advantage for Caedus. There's also a commonly made argument that Luke was fighting stupidly in his bloodlust but I'll leave that to others.

Avatar image for teamfingolfin
#81 Posted by TeamFingolfin (102 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

No, he's a 9. Nobody is 10 (that would mean perfection, which is impossible). And the system counts in both Canon and Legends.

This is referring to Nick Gillard's ranking of Sidious, Yoda, and Anakin, correct? And this is still canon?

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#82 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16246 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger: No, not really. Besides, even if Anakin is within the same tier, Yoda's obviously a noticeably better combatant given their respective performances against Dooku(where only Zonakin was capable of replicating Yoda's performance).

Luke didn't really stomp Jacen at all, tbh. If he was truly capable of stomping him, then Jacen wouldn't have tagged him several times throughout the duel and wouldn't have fought him evenly when both were injected with poison.

I'm referring to Caedus having a greater command of the Force than his grandfather, as per LotF.

Online
Avatar image for noobsnowman
#83 Edited by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

Well, it's fair to say that Caedus wouldn't normally be blitzed by Luke, which is why nobody has ventured that argument yet, but indeed, the opening strike is much the equivalent of being blitzed. Of course, as you have noted, the circumstances surrounding Jacen's obliviousness to Luke keep it from happening again in a real fight, but

I think the crux of your argument lies in the incomplete part of this post. Mind filling the hole of it?

Your comparison with Yoda is valid in terms of the circumstances, but you failed to note the actual outcome of the attacks; Dooku managed only a negligible line on Yoda's side as opposed to a blow through the kidney like Luke did.

Yet Yoda admitted that Dooku would have killed him if he was any closer to the blade, if anything Luke only inflicted a marginally deeper cut. What's more, Dooku is a noticeably inferior combatant compared to Yoda, as compared to Luke being a noticeably superior combatant compared to Caedus, at least in terms of Force powers.

The problem here is that with those three blows, Jacen was knocked to his knees, had some teeth broken and became so enfeebled that his slash at Luke's thighs was explicitly noted as being "weak". Note that Jacen was actually amped by the pain of the kidney wound at this point while Luke was hindered by the pain of being struck in an old wound. So the fact that Luke was reducing him to that in a few moves is proof of a rather significant disparity here.

Whether Caedus was planning the pull to be followed up by hurling the Vong rack at Luke or whether he was simply pulling himself away out of desperation and managed to creatively think of that tactic on the fly is up for debate, either being impressive for Jacen. But the actual performance up till then is rather poor for someone who's purportedly a near-equal of Luke's. Regardless of whether Jacen would've died there or not, he was still more or less stomped then.

I'd agree that Luke had the upper hand in that section of their fight, but Jacen being knocked to his knees does not necessarily mean that he was getting stomped. In more than one encounter had Luke managed to batter Jacen's guard, yet the latter remained resourceful enough to wiggle himself out of dire situations. For example, in another occasion, Luke was beating Jacen's guard down so hard that it clipped his own shoulder, yet Jacen again tactically adapts by kicking Luke's knee, hampering Luke's mobility for the rest of the fight.

I think the Luke vs Caedus fight is beyond a demonstration of a contest of raw power and skill with the blade, it's a demonstration of a battle of tactical prowess, as it is evidenced since Luke and Caedus managed to tactically outwit each other multiple times in their duel, with Caedus holding the edge in that department (he outmanoeuvred Luke twice as compared to Luke doing it once). And Caedus' expertise in it is why I rank him very highly in my books.

Not sure if that argument has been made recently; it's a rather old one. However, there's a pretty strong substitute argument in its place: that Jacen thrives off pain and is actually amped by it, whereas Luke gets genuinely hurt. That's a pretty significant advantage for Caedus. There's also a commonly made argument that Luke was fighting stupidly in his bloodlust but I'll leave that to others.

It's a common trend of thought that has lasted for years, thought I'd make the move to debunk it.

Also, Jacen thriving off pain and being amped by it isn't really an anti-feat for Caedus. If anything it would serve him well against opponents that would at least pose a great challenge against him, such as Knightfall Vader.

Avatar image for greysentinel365
#84 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6005 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: @SilentBat stated in one of his videos that he spoke to one of Gillards coworkers on III who confirmed Sidious is a 10.

Avatar image for SilentBat
#85 Posted by silentbat (1344 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: Correct. The source is Ryan Wieber, one of the VFX coordinators who worked alongside Nick Gillard for the Revenge of the Sith video game.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for shootingnova
#86 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio
@greysentinel365 said:

stated in one of his videos that he spoke to one of Gillards coworkers on III who confirmed Sidious is a 10.

Pretty sure a public quote like that exists. But there's also quotes for AotC Anakin being a 5, Yoda being an 8, RotS Obi-Wan a 7, etc.

Doesn't mean that's the standard now. The vast majority of quotes put AotC Anakin a 7, RotS Obi-Wan at 8, Yoda at 9, Palpatine at 9, and so on. The only time the rankings have appeared in an actual published sources is The Making of Revenge of the Sith, where Mace, Anakin, Yoda and Palpatine are listed as 9's and Obi-Wan as an 8.

And a comment from a coordinator of the non-canon RotS video game doesn't take precedence over the word of Gillard himself, lol.

@noobsnowman

I think the crux of your argument lies in the incomplete part of this post. Mind filling the hole of it?

Huh. Didn't see that, sorry. But I was basically just saying what I'll say below; Jacen's performance is admirable in its entirety but comes down to a lot of factors. As far as sheer lightsaber skill goes, I'm hard-pressed to see a reason for putting him up there with Anakin.

Yet Yoda admitted that Dooku would have killed him if he was any closer to the blade, if anything Luke only inflicted a marginally deeper cut. What's more, Dooku is a noticeably inferior combatant compared to Yoda, as compared to Luke being a noticeably superior combatant compared to Caedus, at least in terms of Force powers.

Luke inflicted a blow that would've been game-ending if Caedus didn't thrive on pain. Dooku's blow inflicted no consequential damage on Yoda. There's a significant difference, and the depth of the lightsaber blade's penetration is not the right way to measure it; it should be measured with the consequence of the blow itself.

I'd agree that Luke had the upper hand in that section of their fight, but Jacen being knocked to his knees does not necessarily mean that he was getting stomped. In more than one encounter had Luke managed to batter Jacen's guard, yet the latter remained resourceful enough to wiggle himself out of dire situations. For example, in another occasion, Luke was beating Jacen's guard down so hard that it clipped his own shoulder, yet Jacen again tactically adapts by kicking Luke's knee, hampering Luke's mobility for the rest of the fight.

I think the Luke vs Caedus fight is beyond a demonstration of a contest of raw power and skill with the blade, it's a demonstration of a battle of tactical prowess, as it is evidenced since Luke and Caedus managed to tactically outwit each other multiple times in their duel, with Caedus holding the edge in that department (he outmanoeuvred Luke twice as compared to Luke doing it once). And Caedus' expertise in it is why I rank him very highly in my books.

In fairness, Luke was bloodlusted, which makes it kind of hard to play the tactical game.

Jacen's ability to wriggle out of other scenarios doesn't mean he could've done so here. Luke reduced him to an enfeebled wreck with a couple of moves; that's a pretty severe disparity. It seem as if he genuinely had to bail out with the pull to the Vong rack. Which also makes it unlikely that the rack move was planned, but rather spur-of-the-moment. Points go to him for his creativity and tactical mindset in the heat of a fight, of course.

The rest of the fight comes down to Luke continually suffering from injuries (he gets smacked by the Vong rack right after this scene) whilst Caedus gets stronger with each one (of course his pain tolerance isn't infinite, but it's a huge advantage coming into his fight with Luke), which explains why they were so close. And even outside of the pain tolerance, Sith in general progressively get stronger throughout a fight (the same is true of Anakin). So, all things considered, Jacen's feat is very impressive, but that's the thing — you have to consider all the factors. This can't really be used as a feat of raw combat skill. A feat for his pain tolerance, creative thinking and overall combative capacity? Sure.

It's a common trend of thought that has lasted for years, thought I'd make the move to debunk it.

Also, Jacen thriving off pain and being amped by it isn't really an anti-feat for Caedus. If anything it would serve him well against opponents that would at least pose a great challenge against him, such as Knightfall Vader.

No doubt it's a good trait for battles here on the forums, but if we're comparing blade-to-blade combat, we have to factor that in. As an overall combatant, Jacen did contend with Luke, but I'm just noting that a huge part of that was the result of his thriving off pain.

Avatar image for noobsnowman
#87 Edited by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

Huh. Didn't see that, sorry. But I was basically just saying what I'll say below; Jacen's performance is admirable in its entirety but comes down to a lot of factors. As far as sheer lightsaber skill goes, I'm hard-pressed to see a reason for putting him up there with Anakin.

Well, after both were heavily poisoned by the torture chamber's devices, Caedus paced with Luke for a while, suggesting parity in terms of sheer lightsaber skill, as well as speed:

Jacen's lightsaber droned twice, filling that corner of the torture chamber with flickering green light. Luke Force-hurled the light fixture off his back, then hobbled to his feet.

Jacen launched himself over Luke in a high Force flip. They exchanged perfunctory attacks as he tumbled past, then Luke was alone in the corner, watching the green column of his nephew's lightsaber move toward the door.

Jacen was running.

Luke spat out a mouthful of blood and Force-leapt after his nephew, at the same time reaching out to drag him back. They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could follow, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself calling on the Force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter.

While it is true that Jacen's pain tolerance is insane, it can only take him so far if his lightsaber skill were to be completely inadequate compared to Luke's. After all, this fight is well contested, not a fight when Luke was constantly bashing upon a pseudo Darth Sion.

Luke inflicted a blow that would've been game-ending if Caedus didn't thrive on pain. Dooku's blow inflicted no consequential damage on Yoda. There's a significant difference, and the depth of the lightsaber blade's penetration is not the right way to measure it; it should be measured with the consequence of the blow itself.

Fair enough.

However, I still wouldn't rule it out as Caedus being near speed blitzed, especially since he managed to not only sense Luke's attack, but also realise that his initial perception of the attack was incorrect. While Luke's blow was indeed consequential, Caedus' reflexes enabled him to significantly reduce the impact of the blow, especially since he blocked the blow just as when Luke's lightsaber met flesh.

In fairness, Luke was bloodlusted, which makes it kind of hard to play the tactical game.

Jacen's ability to wriggle out of other scenarios doesn't mean he could've done so here. Luke reduced him to an enfeebled wreck with a couple of moves; that's a pretty severe disparity. It seem as if he genuinely had to bail out with the pull to the Vong rack. Which also makes it unlikely that the rack move was planned, but rather spur-of-the-moment. Points go to him for his creativity and tactical mindset in the heat of a fight, of course.

The rest of the fight comes down to Luke continually suffering from injuries (he gets smacked by the Vong rack right after this scene) whilst Caedus gets stronger with each one (of course his pain tolerance isn't infinite, but it's a huge advantage coming into his fight with Luke), which explains why they were so close. And even outside of the pain tolerance, Sith in general progressively get stronger throughout a fight (the same is true of Anakin). So, all things considered, Jacen's feat is very impressive, but that's the thing — you have to consider all the factors. This can't really be used as a feat of raw combat skill. A feat for his pain tolerance, creative thinking and overall combative capacity? Sure.

Luke was indeed bloodlusted, but he wasn't tactically incompetent. After all, he outmanoeuvred Caedus by feigning a dash to his blind side, before slamming him with a force wave, and aimed that attack right at the racks where Jacen could not escape.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Luke had Jacen reduced to an enfeebled wreck with a couple of moves, considering that in multiple occasions Luke had shattered many of Jacen's bones but failed to put him down for the count. His speed and reflexes remained intact despite looking like an enfeebled wreck, which enabled him to react even before Luke brought his blade downwards.

Jacen's resourcefulness is not a raw combat skill, sure, but it does help in passively aiding him in applying his combat skills. After all, he managed to smack Luke with the thorn bed with his TK that temporarily pinned him in place. Later on, he fooled Luke by creating an image of his lightsaber with Luke trying to break down Jacen's nonexistent guard, then strangled him with a tendril that Luke could not wrestle out of via martial prowess (he had to resort to his superior force powers to escape from the hold). These two showings demonstrate applications of force power that is being resourcefully applied on Caedus' end.

No doubt it's a good trait for battles here on the forums, but if we're comparing blade-to-blade combat, we have to factor that in. As an overall combatant, Jacen did contend with Luke, but I'm just noting that a huge part of that was the result of his thriving off pain.

When it comes to tanking Luke's blows, sure. However, that alone shouldn't be a huge portion of why Jacen managed to contend really well, otherwise someone like Darth Sion should be able to contend with Luke given his even more absurd pain tolerance. After all, Caedus had the speed to pace up with Luke, even dodging strikes to the neck (that no amount of pain tolerance could help him tank) while suffering from the impact of Luke's kick, and had the raw lightsaber skill to clash blades with Luke.

Avatar image for shootingnova
#88 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman:

Well, after both were heavily poisoned by the torture chamber's devices, Caedus paced with Luke for a while, suggesting parity in terms of sheer lightsaber skill, as well as speed:

Caedus was already amped off wounds and Luke was injured at that point. Again, on completely neutral terms, Caedus is well behind.

While it is true that Jacen's pain tolerance is insane, it can only take him so far if his lightsaber skill were to be completely inadequate compared to Luke's. After all, this fight is well contested, not a fight when Luke was constantly bashing upon a pseudo Darth Sion.

Yes, but by the time the fight gets into the "well contested lightsaber duel", Jacen is amped off an injury whilst Luke is struck in an old wound and hit by a Vong rack. The entire "contest" operated under a situation that favoured Caedus.

Fair enough.

However, I still wouldn't rule it out as Caedus being near speed blitzed, especially since he managed to not only sense Luke's attack, but also realise that his initial perception of the attack was incorrect. While Luke's blow was indeed consequential, Caedus' reflexes enabled him to significantly reduce the impact of the blow, especially since he blocked the blow just as when Luke's lightsaber met flesh.

It was a near-blitz, but the circumstances allow us to be more lenient in assessing it.

Luke was indeed bloodlusted, but he wasn't tactically incompetent. After all, he outmanoeuvred Caedus by feigning a dash to his blind side, before slamming him with a force wave, and aimed that attack right at the racks where Jacen could not escape.

I didn't say he was tactically incompetent, just perhaps not as tactically capable as he could've been.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Luke had Jacen reduced to an enfeebled wreck with a couple of moves, considering that in multiple occasions Luke had shattered many of Jacen's bones but failed to put him down for the count. His speed and reflexes remained intact despite looking like an enfeebled wreck, which enabled him to react even before Luke brought his blade downwards.

Jacen was definitely enfeebled. He was on his knees with broken teeth and the slash that he made at Luke was explicitly noted to be "weak" by the text, which suggests that he had lost a substantial amount of physical strength; at least in that moment. Jacen's ability to pull himself away is a good showing of reaction speed but has nothing to do with losing physical strength, which is what "enfeeble" means.

Jacen's resourcefulness is not a raw combat skill, sure, but it does help in passively aiding him in applying his combat skills. After all, he managed to smack Luke with the thorn bed with his TK that temporarily pinned him in place. Later on, he fooled Luke by creating an image of his lightsaber with Luke trying to break down Jacen's nonexistent guard, then strangled him with a tendril that Luke could not wrestle out of via martial prowess (he had to resort to his superior force powers to escape from the hold). These two showings demonstrate applications of force power that is being resourcefully applied on Caedus' end.

As I said, his resourcefulness is a factor when considering his overall fighting skill, not his raw blade-to-blade prowess.

When it comes to tanking Luke's blows, sure. However, that alone shouldn't be a huge portion of why Jacen managed to contend really well, otherwise someone like Darth Sion should be able to contend with Luke given his even more absurd pain tolerance. After all, Caedus had the speed to pace up with Luke, even dodging strikes to the neck (that no amount of pain tolerance could help him tank) while suffering from the impact of Luke's kick, and had the raw lightsaber skill to clash blades with Luke.

It's definitely a huge portion since Luke gets injured and weakened and Caedus gets injured and amped before the fight really gets going. Jacen had the advantage before the fight even started. The fight continues to escalate in that skewed manner. As I mentioned earlier, there are obviously limits to Jacen's pain tolerance, but it was a significant contributor to his performance here. Without it, or the presence of Luke's old wound that Jacen miraculously tagged on his first hit, and other such circumstantial factors, the fight would not have been nearly as long or close.

Avatar image for noobsnowman
#89 Edited by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

Caedus was already amped off wounds and Luke was injured at that point. Again, on completely neutral terms, Caedus is well behind.

I think it is on neutral terms in this context because in a typical fight when both fighters are at least near equally matched in a very gruelling contest, wounds would be inflicted upon each other. The fact that Caedus amps off wounds shows that the longer the fight goes, the more it favours Caedus. The innate ability to feed off pain to an exceptional level gives Caedus an innate advantage in a typical fight in neutral ground.

It also must be mentioned that the fight ended prematurely. Had it been a fight to the death, the fight would have dragged on for much longer, with Luke prevailing as the battered victor. The fact that Luke could only barely pull through after an elongated duel with Caedus shows that significantly inferior opponents to Luke such as Knightfall Anakin wouldn't have any success in the same situation at all. Anakin's only chance of victory is to overwhelm Caedus early on in the fight, which I personally see as improbable, otherwise he straight up loses.

Yes, but by the time the fight gets into the "well contested lightsaber duel", Jacen is amped off an injury whilst Luke is struck in an old wound and hit by a Vong rack. The entire "contest" operated under a situation that favoured Caedus.

I think a more accurate description is that a fight that drags for a long time would only favour Caedus. You either hit Caedus in a fatal area, or he kills you. Luke, obviously, is one of those very small exceptions to it.

Also, Luke being hit by the Vong rack was a while after Jacen suffered the kidney injury. The fight was well contested even before Luke was hit with the Vong rack.

It was a near-blitz, but the circumstances allow us to be more lenient in assessing it.

Another thing I'd like to raise in the comparison I made is the sheer difference in speed between Vjun amped Dooku and Luke. While it is true that Luke inflicted a much greater wound than Dooku did, Luke struck at a much greater level of speed compared to Dooku, which alone more than makes up for the disparity in terms of the consequential damage that followed if we compare the speed feats between Luke and Vjun amped Dooku. So while Caedus took a much more consequential cut compared to Yoda, the speed difference between Luke and Dooku more than makes up for it, and factoring in the circumstances around it, leads me to believe that Caedus' feat remains more impressive.

Jacen was definitely enfeebled. He was on his knees with broken teeth and the slash that he made at Luke was explicitly noted to be "weak" by the text, which suggests that he had lost a substantial amount of physical strength; at least in that moment. Jacen's ability to pull himself away is a good showing of reaction speed but has nothing to do with losing physical strength, which is what "enfeeble" means.

Oh true, then I can agree with that, especially when you mentioned that Jacen lost strength in that very moment. However, the fact that his reflexes and speed remained intact despite being temporarily weakened physically invalidates any notion that he lost in three strokes.

As I said, his resourcefulness is a factor when considering his overall fighting skill, not his raw blade-to-blade prowess

Jacen's resourcefulness is mainly applied to compensate the significant disparity between the two in terms of force powers. So yes it's true, it does not contribute to his blade to blade prowess. I did not mention explicitly, but his resourcefulness is one of the main factors that makes him all the more complete of a fighter, and a true force to be reckoned with, even for Luke.

It's definitely a huge portion since Luke gets injured and weakened and Caedus gets injured and amped before the fight really gets going. Jacen had the advantage before the fight even started. The fight continues to escalate in that skewed manner. As I mentioned earlier, there are obviously limits to Jacen's pain tolerance, but it was a significant contributor to his performance here.

I know you have Luke on a completely different level compared to Caedus, but a couple of injuries shouldn't be enough to close the significant gap between them, especially since these fights didn't involve any external amps such as a dark side nexus. I think it's reasonable to rank Caedus at least comparable to Luke on base level, with his ability to feed off pain to an exceptional level contributing to what makes the fight very close.

Without it, or the presence of Luke's old wound that Jacen miraculously tagged on his first hit, and other such circumstantial factors, the fight would not have been nearly as long or close.

Jacen's ability to feed off pain and get stronger is an innate ability, you can't really take it away from him.

Luke may have an old wound, but Caedus' blow carried so much force that it virtually reopened the wound, so it speaks well to Caedus' strength feats. Also, there is nothing miraculous about tagging Luke on the first hit, the fact that Caedus managed to tag Luke with such force after being amped from only one injury suggests that even before that, there already is some existing parity between the two.

Avatar image for darthfallax
#90 Posted by DarthFallax (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

Neither one is stomping.

Knightfall wins, Zone wins rather easily, while pre-Zone loses.

Avatar image for kundelar
#91 Posted by Kundelar (524 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin round 1 Caedus round 2.

Avatar image for noobsnowman
#92 Posted by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthfallax: I think Knightfall and Zone are pretty much the same thing, since Zone-akin tapped into the dark side that utterly demolished Dooku, while by Knightfall he fully embraced the dark side, suggesting that Knightfall Anakin could also replicate the Dooku stomping feat just the same.

Avatar image for desolatorstorm
#93 Edited by DesolatorStorm (384 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

@darthjarjar:

If it wasn't Knightfall then it would be worse for Anakin.

Obviously, but still enough to beat Caedus or at least contend very well.

I didn't say that Caedus was as fast as Luke, but he is comparable.

And I didn't say you said that. I was attacking the idea of them being comparable; they kind of aren't.

I actually think that Anakin could present a difficult challenge to Yoda (only sabers). Still he's a tier below Palpatine and Yoda in speed. Caedus doesn't have any advantages?

And Anakin is in Yoda/Palpatine's tier in speed, since his level 9 status is not just taking into account skill but also physicals. Not to mention the novel calling him the fastest Jedi even before he turned to the dark side. During Knightfall, he cut down Cin Drallig about as quickly as Palpatine did Kit Fisto, if not faster, and Drallig's of a similar stock as Kit. This is in spite of him being hindered and choking Bene at the same time. So he's definitely in Yoda and Palpatine's speed tier.

What force feats allow Anakin to keep up with Caedus? I can only think of one.

Calling down a 90 x 30 metre dome in LoE, and he can do better by Knightfall.

@thesithmaster said:

Round 1: Anakin. He is quite more skilled, and manages to narrowly counter Caedus's speed advantage with aforementioned skill.

Round 2: Caedus. He's more powerful, and although Anakin has more potential, he loses due to Caedus's greater applications, feats, versatility, and speed.

No, and no. The legacy of the force novels contains statements that completely contradict these assessments.

Addressing Shooting Nova.

No, your interpretation of Luke and Caedus's abilities is directly contradicted by Luke's own assessment/narration.

Three YVH droids were left. And Jacen. Against Luke and Ben. Jacen was Luke's match, which meant Ben had to cope with three combat droids. The odds weren't good.

-Star Wars Legacy of the Force: Fury

This is on chapter 36 if you doubt me. Through sheer scaling, you're assessment can't be right. Is grandmaster Luke clearly superior? Yes. Is Caedus not able to contend with him, or is Luke able to stomp him? No. Through sheer scaling, and not even touching feats, Caedus should be significantly above Anakin, regardless of the version, unless you're going to argue that GM Luke of all people is only somewhat better than Anakin.

Addressing thesithmaster

For you, I'm focusing on your potential statement, which could only be true if Anakin > Luke in force potential, and is doubtfull even then. Reread chapter 33 of Betrayal. The tipping point for Jacen was witnessing that in every future he could see that involved Nelani bringing Lumiya in, it led to events where there was a 1v1 between Jacen and Luke, and each one of them led to Luke being beaten by Jacen, with different methods involved. Jacen's potential should be equal to Anakin.

Avatar image for shootingnova
#94 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@desolatorstorm: That's a fair quote. Although Luke says the same of Jaina in FotJ and has a history of being unreliable in assessing other characters by overrating them (Ben Kenobi, Ragnos, Kun, Vader, Kyp Durron, every mook and joe villain in the NR era, etc.)

However, that does raise Caedus in my eyes. Regardless, he's not significantly above Anakin, who's factually right up there with Yoda and Palpatine. Luke is actually not much better than those two, and his situation is made worse by how inconsistent he is in the Legacy era.

Avatar image for shootingnova
#95 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for desolatorstorm
#96 Posted by DesolatorStorm (384 posts) - - Show Bio

@desolatorstorm: That's a fair quote. Although Luke says the same of Jaina in FotJ and has a history of being unreliable in assessing other characters by overrating them (Ragnos, Kun, Vader, Kyp Durron, every mook and joe villain in the NR era, etc.)

However, that does raise Caedus in my eyes. Regardless, he's not significantly above Anakin, who's factually right up there with Yoda and Palpatine. Luke is actually not much better than those two, and his situation is made worse by how inconsistent he is in the Legacy era.

Yeah! More research for me to check! ugh.

I have to further disagree on Luke's skill regarding lighstaber skill compared to those two (ROTS versions) at the least. Dark Empire Luke had lost to DE Sidious in the first fight, and beat him in the second, and that Sidious is far stronger than ROTS Sidious. Even if his technique isn't changed(not elaborated), he still boasts far more force power, and accordingly, more capability. Now, I know there's contention as to whether or not Luke was amped by Leia in the actual duel, but I believe the afterword of the comic indicated not (and definitely not in the audio book). However, I will do some digging to fact check this.

Avatar image for shootingnova
#97 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@desolatorstormw: Palpatine decimated him in the first fight (especially in the audio version), although it was on a dark side nexus. And in fairness, he hadn't practiced with a lightsaber for well over twenty years. I suppose one could say he didn't deteriorate between his duel with Maul on Hypori and his duel with Maul in TCW, a span of a similar timeframe, but he may have still found time to use his lightsaber, whereas he's confirmed as no longer being a swordsman by TFU (or else Vader has surpassed him, which would not bode well for him anyway).

Indeed, the Empror did grow more powerful. I'd imagine he's somewhat better than his RotS incarnation in saber combat at least. If you take Gillard's approach, he seems to suggest that level nine is more or less the maximum and that fights at that level are dictated by personal fighting styles and circumstantial factors, not a matter of who's outright better. So it's possible that the Emperor didn't improve at all and Luke never surpassed him substantially (which he certainly doesn't on the basis of his later feats).

In the second fight Leia's stated as unlocking hidden resources in Luke, which suggests an amp to me. Luke in the NR era is pretty sketchy since he's sometimes depicted as being more Vader-level than anything else, despite being a match for his father in RotJ alone. He's not exactly consistent in general.

Avatar image for noobsnowman
#98 Posted by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Well you recently raised your opinion for Caedus to be only marginally above Knightfall Anakin, right? Then shouldn't we be in agreement here? Because that is my opinion of this matchup.

Avatar image for shootingnova
#99 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman: Well, I'm not actually fully convinced he's above Anakin (I had him below Anakin before). Especially because the higher up you go, the smaller and smaller the gap between characters are.

I am convinced that he's at least on the border of levels 8 and 9, but I'm not too sure if he's an outright 9.

Avatar image for noobsnowman
#100 Edited by noobsnowman (3613 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

Especially because the higher up you go, the smaller and smaller the gap between characters are.

Care to elaborate on this part? I'm skeptical about this.