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#1 Edited by bigsambino87 (1754 posts) - - Show Bio
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Anakin Skywalker (ROTS) vs Darth Caedus

Round 1 is sabers with Force augmentation only, which takes place in the hangar of the Death Star where Vader fought Old Ben.

Round 2 is all out, in Palpatine's office.

No prep for either battle.

Composite Anakin, Legends Caedus (obviously)

Can the Chosen One defeat his grandson? Or has Caedus risen above Anakin's potential?

FIGHT!!

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#2 Posted by bigsambino87 (1754 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by decaf_wizard (16936 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus with difficulty for both. At least if Anakin is operating at his normal levels

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#4 Posted by bigsambino87 (1754 posts) - - Show Bio

*sigh* I see that this has already been done, but hey, why not?

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#6 Posted by bigsambino87 (1754 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339: ...um, yeah, of course I know that. psh...who doesn't know that? a noob, that's who...*whistles nonchalantly and backs into a bush, Homer Simpson style*...

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#7 Posted by Emperordmb (1987 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus cuts his granddaddy's head off.

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#8 Posted by AmethystGravity (2314 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: I might honestly give the edge to Anakin, but I'm not sure how to compare their feats. There's beating/stomping Dooku and stomping Cin Drallig + Padawans vs contending with Luke in a circumstantial battle and contending with a Jaina amped by Luke, not to mention their other duels.

Round 2: Anakin is definitely a powerhouse in the force, but Caedus seems to have better uses of the force in combative situations. I would probably support Caedus.

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#9 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11475 posts) - - Show Bio

From what i´ve read, Caedus.

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#10 Edited by freesid_stf123 (537 posts) - - Show Bio

For round 1 Anakin could either lose in a good battle or run Caedus over. Probably the former more likely.

Round 2 Caedus should take it, superior offensive force mastery.

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#11 Posted by echostarlord117 (5615 posts) - - Show Bio

In no way is Anakin beating Darth Caedus. Unless of course the hand of Almighty Lucas is involved. Darth Caedus wins.

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#12 Posted by JediTraining101 (590 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus is the more cultured duelist. So for R1 Caedus and again, Caedus for round 2.

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#13 Posted by noobsnowman (3625 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus, every time.

Zone-akin would make the fight a lot closer, though I'd still favour Caedus very slightly.

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#14 Edited by darthbane77 (2112 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus

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#15 Posted by sXe619 (544 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus in a great fight.

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#16 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

What Noobsnowman said.

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#17 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16500 posts) - - Show Bio
@sxe619 said:

Caedus in a great fight.

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#18 Posted by DarthFallax (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

Either way both rounds. Might leaning Anakin in round 1, and Caedus in Round 2, if anything.

@wollfmyth209 Lol that you side with Jacen, but I do not xD.

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#19 Posted by i_like_swords (26200 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin in all rounds. Caedus' best dueling feats (losing to Luke in three blows/contending but losing to Luke in spite of Luke being copiously injured/stalemating Jaina with negative circumstances) are overshadowed by Anakin utterly decimating Dooku, or him pushing back Obi-Wan despite being all over the place emotionally (which would essentially create a schism in his ability to draw on the Force).

As for Force feats, Anakin's more powerful. His feats are just better. Moving a dreadnought fast enough to intercept a missile is as good as any feat Caedus has, and Anakin did this shortly after AotC.

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#20 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6178 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus. Better in every way

Make it Zonakin for a better fight

Also if all it takes is matching Anakin's dreadnought feat to suggest parity with Caedus then Kenobi could match him

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#21 Posted by DarthFallax (1638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't hold Anakin as highly as some on this forum do.

Honestly I'd lean more towards Caedus in excellent fights.

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#23 Edited by i_like_swords (26200 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: He wasn't losing in three strokes :\

A strike that "should" have gone through Caedus' chest was negated because Caedus telekinetically pulled himself towards a Vong rack. If they were fighting in the Geonosis arena he would have died right there. Refer to this post for a full analysis:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/yoda-vs-darth-caedus-658760/?page=2#js-message-15108720

Caedus. Better in every way

Make it Zonakin for a better fight

Also if all it takes is matching Anakin's dreadnought feat to suggest parity with Caedus then Kenobi could match him

Interesting. Could you elaborate?

I don't hold Anakin as highly as some on this forum do.

Honestly I'd lean more towards Caedus in excellent fights.

Any reasons?

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#24 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Caedus may have been losing to Luke in three strikes, but so did Palpatine lose to an all-out Yoda in three strikes.

But could you still give a list of Luke's injuries - relevant quotes included?

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#25 Posted by DarthFallax (1638 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Yeah, but the point is moot, tbh. In the time he TKed himself, he should also be able to put his Lightsaber between Luke and hus chest.

He also contended with Luke quite well in the rest of the fight.

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#26 Posted by DaDivineKing (5521 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin, yeah.

Caedus has been debunked.

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#27 Posted by i_like_swords (26200 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger said:

@i_like_swords: Caedus may have been losing to Luke in three strikes, but so did Palpatine lose to an all-out Yoda in three strikes.

But could you still give a list of Luke's injuries - relevant quotes included?

No, he didn't.

The first one is Caedus kicking Luke in a barely healed rib-wound from a previous fight, after Luke scraped his kidney:

The fight starts with an angered Luke ambushing and stabbing a few centimeters into Caedus' stomach, touching his kidney. While the injury logically would have affected Caedus negatively, as the text notes that kind of injury would paralyse most normal beings, it's explicitly noted that Caedus not only recovered from the injury instantly, but fed off of it to make himself stronger and faster, which is further indicated by him "simply completing his pivot and landing a rib-crunching roundhouse".

"Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.

Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.

But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.

The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse."

Said rib-crunching roundhouse landed squarely on a barely healed scar from a previous fight of Luke's, causing him to begin breathing in "short, painful gasps". Luke isn't too worked up over this, though.

"Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt."

The next part is where Luke has him dead to rights.

Then, Caedus feigns using Force lightning, but instead throws a Vong torture rack at Luke, smashing him into a wall and injecting him full of venom:

"Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.

The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising."

Next, Luke responds by slashing through the torture rack, landing a strike Caedus barely counters in time, and then kicks him a meter off the ground. Caedus ducks a swing for his neck and punches the same rib-wound, further hindering Luke's breathing:

Bad mistake.

Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-

-which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.

Next, Luke beats Jacen's guard back with such force his own lightsaber slashes his shoulder. Caedus kicks the side of Luke's knee, which causes it to "pop", indicating a breakage or something similarly serious. Luke scalps Caedus in response.

Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. Jacen kicked at Luke's legs, catching the side of a knee. Something popped and Luke felt himself going down. On the way, he swept his blade horizontally.

Jacen screamed, and the smell of scorched bone and singed hair filled the air.

So now Luke is fighting with a re-opened rib wound which has reduced his breathing to croaks, venom pumped all over his bloodstream, and a disabled knee, while Caedus has just been beaten up and received superficial wounds he can draw strength from.

Despite that, Luke jabs Caedus in the eyes, again getting the better of him, and Force blasts him into a venom rack.

Knowing Jacen would strike despite the wound, Luke rolled over his throbbing knee and spun back to his feet with a clearing sweep.

His blade met Jacen's in a shower of brilliant sparks. Luke freed one hand and drove a finger-strike at Jacen's eyes.

Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head. Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.

Jacen went flying, and it required only a soft nudge to steer him into a tendril-draped rack in the far corner. He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green.

Then, again, Luke has Caedus dead to rights, and is about to kill him, but Ben cries out and distracts Luke. The text also indicates how badly Luke's knee was injured, because Ben's cry is all it takes for him to shift too much weight onto the bad leg and cause him to stumble over.

Luke started forward, his injured knee buckling each time he put weight on it. The rack's slender tendrils were tightening around Jacen, cutting into his flesh and oozing a yellowish irritant that made skin puff up and split. Jacen began to slash his lightsaber up and down, cutting the vines away two and three at a time. If Luke wanted to finish this-and it seemed like a good idea, given how battered he was himself-he had only a few seconds.

Luke closed to within two meters without saying a word. What point would there have been? Jacen wasn't going to surrender, and Luke wouldn't have believed him if he offered. It was better to attack quickly, while he still had the advantage. He brought his lightsaber up to strike.

"Wait!" Ben cried from behind him. "Let me do it!"

Astonished and appalled, Luke put a little too much weight on his injured knee-and fell as it buckled. He rolled beyond the reach of Jacen's lightsaber and looked back across the chamber. Ben was still strapped in the Embrace, but he had summoned the vibrodagger off the floor and was battling to cut himself free of the chair's lashing tentacles.

Luke shook his head. "I don't think so, Ben."

"You have to!" Ben insisted. "I deserve it!"

"Deserve it?" Luke returned to his feet, far angrier with Jacen than he had been just a moment earlier. "To kill someone?"

"You don't understand, "Ben insisted. "It was my fault. If I don't do this..."

"I said no, "Luke interrupted. How could Ben believe that he had a right to kill someone? "You're very confused, Ben. We'll talk about this later."

Giving his son no further chance to argue, Luke turned back to Jacen, who by now was almost free. Only one leg remained caught, though it was still entwined in a half a dozen places. Luke limped forward, circling toward Jacen's trapped side.

I think my point has been illustrated, but I'll post the rest of the fight under a spoiler anyway.

Next, while Luke is on the ground, Caedus brings down a large light fixture directly on Luke's head, which is subsequently smashed into the durasteel flooring hard enough to break Luke's nose and cause him to instantly start choking on his own blood.

Jacen stopped cutting at the tendrils and flung a hand toward the ceiling.

"Dad, look — "

Luke was already throwing himself to the deck. A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood.

Next, Caedus starts making his way over to Ben, who has for this whole time been trapped in a Yuuzhan Vong torture apparatus. Despite his laundry list of injuries Luke gets up, trades some effortless blows with Caedus as he flips over him, and then manages to catch up to Caedus as he runs towards Ben - they exchange blows. Caedus kicks Luke in the knee again and Luke lands another elbow in response, shattering a bone in Caedus' face.

Jacen's lightsaber droned twice, filling that corner of the torture chamber with flickering green light. Luke Force-hurled the light fixture off his back, then hobbled to his feet.

Jacen launched himself over Luke in a high Force flip. They exchanged perfunctory attacks as he tumbled past, then Luke was alone in the corner, watching the green column of his nephew's lightsaber move toward the door.

Jacen was running.

Luke spat out a mouthful of blood and Force-leapt after his nephew, at the same time reaching out to drag him back. They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could follow, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself calling on the Force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter.

That's where any dueling between the two finishes. The rest of the fight is pretty simple. Caedus uses an illusion to briefly fool Luke, and then tangles one of the Vong tendrils around Luke's throat, injecting him with the same venom as before and causing him immense pain. Luke repeatedly smashes Caedus with elbows and a palm strike until the fight is finished by Ben stabbing Caedus in the shoulder with a vibroblade.

Jacen stumbled back, groaning, the green light of his lightsaber briefly illuminating Ben's face as the boy struggled to cut himself free. Luke pressed forward, angling toward the Embrace to keep Jacen away from Ben. Jacen fought his way over anyway, placing himself squarely between Luke and the chair, then gave ground and vanished behind the green ribbons his lightsaber was weaving through the darkness.

Luke Force-leapt after him, knowing that this Jacen- the Jacen he had caught torturing his son-would not hesitate to take Ben hostage... or to kill him. Luke landed half a meter in front of Jacen's lightsaber and quickly beat down his nephew's guard-too quickly. When he did not glimpse a face in the light of his own blade, Luke knew something was wrong and stopped.

Which was exactly what Jacen was waiting for, of course.

Luke had barely started to turn before a loop of thin tendril slipped over his head and tightened around his throat, oozing toxin and cutting deep into the flesh. The wound swelled and burned as if it were on fire. Luke whipped his lightsaber around, trying to cut Jacen off his back, but Jacen was already spinning away, tightening his garrote and placing Luke's body between himself and the deadly blade.

"Should have let me go when you had the chance, "Jacen snarled. "Now you're done."

Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall.

Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin.

The garrote went completely slack. Luke followed up with a palm-heel to the same target, using the impact to drive himself away from his attacker and buy some maneuvering room.

Then Jacen let out a bloodcurdling scream and stumbled away, a black silhouette vanishing into the darkness of the torture chamber.

Luke stepped back in shock and confusion, summoning his lightsaber to hand, but knowing by the surprise in Jacen's scream that this was not another trick.

"It's okay, Dad, "Ben said from beside him. "It's just me."

Ben took the glow rod from Luke's belt and activated it. Jacen was crawling across the torture chamber, the hilt of a vibrodagger protruding from between his shoulder blades. His face was inflamed and misshapen, his clothes were smoking and tattered, a hand-sized rectangle of scorched skull showed through his scalp, and still he was stretching a hand toward his lightsaber.

--Legacy of the Force: Inferno

Also, there's this concession on Caedus' part:

Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped the garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probably that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side.

It was a memory that both frightened Caedus and burned his pride, but it was one that he would have to contemplate at length. Now he knew what to expect when Luke discovered who really killed Mara-and when Luke came after him next time, Caedus would be ready.

-Legacy of the Force: Inferno

@i_like_swords: Yeah, but the point is moot, tbh. In the time he TKed himself, he should also be able to put his Lightsaber between Luke and hus chest.

He also contended with Luke quite well in the rest of the fight.

He tried to use his lightsaber to defend himself, and Luke deflected what the text noted was a "weak slash at his thighs". If Caedus could have used his lightsaber, he would have.

"Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been."

Yeah, he lost to Luke even though Luke was battling against a re-opened wound from another fight, a bloodstream filled up with poison, and a knee he couldn't even put weight on. Somehow I think the Chosen One would do just as well in his Dooku-massacring state. Or better.

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#28 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

It depends. On Caedus winning or on why I don't hold Anakin as highly as some?

For the latter, it's simply that I hold anakin highly, but not as High as those who would claim him to be close to Yoda's tier as Wollf does.

Yes, he is certainly edging his way up and out of Mace/Dooku's tier by ROTS, but I don't see any reason to believe him that much higher than them and honestly I could even see Mace Windu coming close to holding parity with him in an all out fight or at the very least give him an absolutely excellent bout (although of course, with Anakin being more physically impressive as well as more powerful, if less refined in his use of he force and the near parity of skill, I can certainly see Anakin take the majority).

I feel Anakin's victory over Dooku is often exaggerated and inflated, especially when people claim it was an utter stomp, especially when Anakin not only had aid, but circumstance was involved, including aid from Kenobi for the beginning of the fight, before Anakin began to dominate, Anakin entering a state of focus after watching his master fall (which is where he began to dominate and is a common theme in star wars, so I doubt Anakin can pull that out of the bag on a whim) and in the ROTS Novelization, encouragement from Palpatine to tap into his rage, after beginning to falter to Dooku's dun moch, otherwise Dooku's dun moch seeming to backfire on him in the other sources.

Yes, I believe Anakin would have overcome Dooku regardless, but to say Anakin utterly decimated him, especially purely of his own merit is an absurd concept to me.

It seems a hyperbolic claim. There was no way for Dooku to win by the time the fight neared its end, the result was already decided, but Anakin certainly didn't stomp him or anything close to such a concept.

-----------

Regarding Caedus, one will have to forgive me, but my knowledge on him is lacking compared to most other characters.

From what I do know, I generally hold him above the likes of Mace, Dooku, Vader and Anakin, but I'd be more than happy to hear a solid argument for the other side of this battle, other than lowballing Caedus and mentioning one force feat from Anakin.

By the way. I'm sure at some point in the past you stated that you believed Anakin's dreadnaught feat to be an inconsistency with his normal level of power. But that was a long time ago, so it can be forgiven as you've likely changed your opinion on it.

Edit: Ah, I see you've made an additional post with stuff to read. Excellent.

------

If anything I hold Cedus closer to Yoda's tier than Mace's, wheras I hold Anakin closer to Mace's tier than Yoda's, but both are close to overlapping.

I know that ^ bit sounded like ABC and tier wanking, but I'm just generalizing. It's not as important as what I said above.

I don't think that losing to an injured Luke (who, himself, is above the likes of Yoda) and losing to Jaina (who is comparable as a duelist to Kenobi and more powerful) whilst Caedus was hindered by injuries is any clear indication that Anakin is his superior.

I find myself doubting Anakin could have succeeded, given the same circumstances.

----

It's not as if I think Caedus is taking this 'for sure'. I see him having to put in more elbow grease than he signed up for to take down Anakin.

It's just that I think that some people like to inflate Anakin's combative ability.

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#29 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6178 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: It's very late so I won't be able to fully reiterate now

But basically:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-kenobi-vs-darth-malgus-1619162/?page=2#js-message-17687807

Also Anakin was amped for the entirety of his fight against Dooku due to the specific circumstances explained here

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/the-best-of-anakin-skywalker-rots-a-legends-respec-1832774/?page=3#js-message-17658103

It's midnight so if you reply I won't be able to get back soon

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#30 Edited by i_like_swords (26200 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:

Yes, I believe Anakin would have overcome Dooku regardless, but to say Anakin utterly decimated him, especially purely of his own merit is an absurd concept to me.

In the RotS novel, there's a huge amount of prose dedicated to Anakin's internal emotions, motivations, fears and what not, and that when he brings those into focus he "decides" to win, and then wins. It went as far as to say that all of Dooku's experience, skill and power in the Force were "irrelevant" in the face of Anakin, and that after Anakin reached that level of focus the rest of the duel was mere pantomime. Dooku had no chance of winning.

Sure, Palpatine egged Anakin on a little - but it was Anakin's internal emotions and motivations which drove him.

Something that came up recently in an interview with Nick Gillard also reinforces the notion that "Zonakin" is a fan-made concept. In regards to his 1-10 levelling of duelists, he stated Mace was an "8 bordering on 9", while Anakin is simply a 9. With 9 being the tier that otherwise is reserved only for Yoda and Sidious, it suggests that Mace only at the time of his fight with Sidious was a 9, meanwhile Anakin is always a 9. That suggests to me that the longer a fight goes on, the more likely Anakin will be to achieving his Dooku-massacring state of mind.

And if you want to talk about negative circumstances, we can discuss Mustafar Anakin, despite having a fraction of the clarity and focus he had against Dooku, still being an Obi-Wan + tier Force user. Meanwhile, Caedus albeit with terrible injuries but no lack of focus, is only a stalemate for Jaina.

Regarding Caedus, one will have to forgive me, but my knowledge on him is lacking compared to most other characters.

From what I do know, I generally hold him above the likes of Mace, Dooku, Vader and Anakin, but I'd be more than happy to hear a solid argument for the other side of this battle, other than lowballing Caedus and mentioning one force feat from Anakin.

By the way. I'm sure at some point in the past you stated that you believed Anakin's dreadnaught feat to be an inconsistency with his normal level of power. But that was a long time ago, so it can be forgiven as you've likely changed your opinion on it.

And with that lack of knowledge, what made you place him so highly? As for lowballing; you don't need to lowball Caedus to demonstrate that he isn't as good as Anakin. As for feats; it's hypocritical to accept one feat and not another, now that they're all equally valid under the Legends banner. If you make an argument from feats, you must accept all feats. Don't confuse that with ignoring context and circumstances; what I mean is, you can't dismiss a feat based on a personal complaint that it's "inconsistent" or "PIS", complaints which have no basis for validity.

In other words, if one wants to engage in a feat war with Anakin, you need to get past the dreadnought feat. One of Caedus' most highly reputed feats is sliding a 40 meter vessel, which pales in comparison to Anakin's feat.

It's just that I think that some people like to inflate Anakin's combative ability.

Which, I'm afraid to say, makes me chuckle. People on this site, for years, have put Caedus on this pedestal of being in excess of Vader/Anakin/Mace, as far as putting him along the lines of Yoda or Sidious, yet without fail, you can go and look for any recent Caedus thread and find a long chain of people supporting him but not giving any evidence or reason for it (sort of like this thread). Clearly this inflation of ability runs in the family.

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#31 Edited by i_like_swords (26200 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365 said:

@i_like_swords: It's very late so I won't be able to fully reiterate now

But basically:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-kenobi-vs-darth-malgus-1619162/?page=2#js-message-17687807

If that holds up then all the more power to Anakin.

@greysentinel365 said:

Also Anakin was amped for the entirety of his fight against Dooku due to the specific circumstances explained here

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/the-best-of-anakin-skywalker-rots-a-legends-respec-1832774/?page=3#js-message-17658103

It's midnight so if you reply I won't be able to get back soon

All that post is suggesting is that, *gasp*, Anakin's personal motivations are what drive him to the level of success he reaches. Okay, his situation with Dooku was unique. So let's say he's fighting Caedus on flat ground, with absolutely no interference.

Let's say Caedus is gaining an edge, and driving Anakin back.

And then Anakin thinks about his pregnant wife, and his visions of her dying in child birth. Of how he couldn't save his mother from dying. Of how if Caedus kills him, not only will Padme die, but his child will grow up an orphan - if it lives at all.

I don't know if you've met Anakin, but that kind of thing tends to... motivate him.

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#32 Posted by deactivated-5be183e26f3e9 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger said:

Palpatine lose to an all-out Yoda in three strikes.

Source please? Not doubting it or anything. Just curious.

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#33 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

As for lowballing; you don't need to lowball Caedus to demonstrate that he isn't as good as Anakin. As for feats; it's hypocritical to accept one feat and not another, now that they're all equally valid under the Legends banner. If you make an argument from feats, you must accept all feats. Don't confuse that with ignoring context and circumstances; what I mean is, you can't dismiss a feat based on a personal complaint that it's "inconsistent" or "PIS", complaints which have no basis for validity.

In other words, if one wants to engage in a feat war with Anakin, you need to get past the dreadnought feat. One of Caedus' most highly reputed feats is sliding a 40 meter vessel, which pales in comparison to Anakin's feat.

I don't know why you felt the need to claim that I'm hypocritical due to dismissing the dreadnought feat, which is something I never did.
I'd like you to point out where I dismissed it.
I was simply musing on your change of opinion. I had always counted the feat, but you have dismissed it in the past. Clearly you do not now, but there's no reason to make the false claim that I do.

Now, putting that strawman to the side...

And with that lack of knowledge, what made you place him so highly?

Yes. Not all of us know the ins and outs of every book.

Just because I do not know him well, it does not mean I cannot make an opinion of him.

Of course, granted, due to this my opinion on him will, of course, evolve greatly over time. I'm more concerned with learning something new about Star Wars than winning an argument/discussion.
So hopefully you can help on on that journey, even if I come off as abrasive due to my vehement responses.

Honestly, since Wollf holds Anakin to the degree that I disagree with (that you seemingly do) and yet sees caedus as the victor, I feel I'd be interested to see you two debate it out (as the two of you are more 'knowledgeable' than I am and I feel it could help me figure out this conundrum better and learn something new.

In the RotS novel, there's a huge amount of prose dedicated to Anakin's internal emotions, motivations, fears and what not, and that when he brings those into focus he "decides" to win, and then wins. It went as far as to say that all of Dooku's experience, skill and power in the Force were "irrelevant" in the face of Anakin, and that after Anakin reached that level of focus the rest of the duel was mere pantomime. Dooku had no chance of winning.

Indeed, by the end of the fight, Anakin was in a state of mind that allowed him such dominance that Dooku had no chance of achieving victory.

And it only took Palpatine asking Dooku not to go for the kill, (which Dooku adhered to until it was too late) watching his master fall in battle (which tends to have a similar effect on many force users, if to a greater degree with Anakin, who himself is already incredibly powerful in his own right) and Palpatine urging Anakin and combating Dooku's dun moch, which in the very novel you use as evidence for Anakin's superiority, was actually successfuly causing Anakin to falter.

Sure, Palpatine egged Anakin on a little - but it was Anakin's internal emotions and motivations which drove him.

Way to completely dismiss Palpatine's effect on Anakin.

I guess Anakin was also on his way to becoming Darth Vader and slaughtering the Jedi order already.

Sure, Palpatine just egged him on a little... it was Anakin's internal emotions and motivations that drove him.

The same thing has the same merit. Yes, Anakin was on that path to the darkside, regardless of Sidious and yes Anakin is capable of becomign focused and entering a state where he can dominate an opponent such as Dooku on his own, but to ignore Palpatine's involvement in it completely and downplay it to just egging Anakin a little is just... well, it's quite frankly silly.

Anakin is capable, but Palpatine definitely had a hand in his victory (especially since he ordered Dooku to hold back, which Dooku did for the beginning of the fight, and even towards the end, before Palpatine urged Anakin to use his power, Dooku was still not going for the kill and his dun moch was proving effective in keeping the beast chained up.

Yes, Anakin is his superior and would have defeated him, regardless and yes Anakin in that state of focus and deciding to fully embrace his abilities can dominate Dooku, but the fact cannot be ignored that Anakin won't enter that state on a whim, and even after his master fell and entered such a state, even against someone as powerful as Dooku and with the stakes as high as they were, Anakin was unwilling to do so and faltered, which is something I don't see him simply overcoming willy nilly.

He was holding himself back mentally.

If we are not to take Anakin in-character, and instead at his very best, then yes, I can see Anakin defeating Caedus.

^ Important announcment. I just realized that CV rules state to use them at their best unless specified and there is no prompt here to use Anakin In-Character.
Seeing as, yes, Zonakin is more Anakin holding himself back than being amped, I will concede this duel.

However, I still believe that, in-character, Anakin will not be able to achieve such domination on a consistant basis.

Something that came up recently in an interview with Nick Gillard also reinforces the notion that "Zonakin" is a fan-made concept. In regards to his 1-10 levelling of duelists, he stated Mace was an "8 bordering on 9", while Anakin is simply a 9. With 9 being the tier that otherwise is reserved only for Yoda and Sidious, it suggests that Mace only at the time of his fight with Sidious was a 9, meanwhile Anakin is always a 9. That suggests to me that the longer a fight goes on, the more likely Anakin will be to achieving his Dooku-massacring state of mind.

I'm not sure Nick Gillard's ranking of duelists completely overblows all the evidence pointing to Anakin not being on the same level as Palpatine (such as in the ROTS novel where during the fight where Mace was a 9, Anakin could not even make out the duel properly, with it too fast for him to see).

Which, I'm afraid to say, makes me chuckle. People on this site, for years, have put Caedus on this pedestal of being in excess of Vader/Anakin/Mace, as far as putting him along the lines of Yoda or Sidious, yet without fail, you can go and look for any recent Caedus thread and find a long chain of people supporting him but not giving any evidence or reason for it (sort of like this thread). Clearly this inflation of ability runs in the family.

Well, I hope you or someone can provide me a substantial observation of Caedus' abilities in comparison to Mace/Vader/Anakin then.

I haven't been on here long enough to be familiar with the Caedus wank.

I just know a bit about him and additionally read his respect thread and participated in (mainly watched) discussions/debates about him.

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#34 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

All that post is suggesting is that, *gasp*, Anakin's personal motivations are what drive him to the level of success he reaches. Okay, his situation with Dooku was unique. So let's say he's fighting Caedus on flat ground, with absolutely no interference.

Let's say Caedus is gaining an edge, and driving Anakin back.

And then Anakin thinks about his pregnant wife, and his visions of her dying in child birth. Of how he couldn't save his mother from dying. Of how if Caedus kills him, not only will Padme die, but his child will grow up an orphan - if it lives at all.

I don't know if you've met Anakin, but that kind of thing tends to... motivate him.

Well if you're not being sarcastic about it, I'm glad you admit that his fight with Dooku was unique.

but...

Wow, just wow.

It required Anakin to see his master fall before beginning to rely on his full power (something he feared) and once Dooku managed to make him falter with Dun Moch, it required Palpatine's intervention to get Anakin to finally let go of his mental restraints.

If all it took for a force user to amp themselves was to think that the stakes are high, Anakin would have fully let go the moment he thought Dooku was a threat to anyone close to him or himself.

The thoughts you suggested that Anakin randomly think about mid-fight that would somehow allow him to fully let go of his restraints is extremely specific and, well, rather ridiculous.

I mean...

And then Anakin thinks about his pregnant wife, and his visions of her dying in child birth. Of how he couldn't save his mother from dying. Of how if Caedus kills him, not only will Padme die, but his child will grow up an orphan - if it lives at all.

I don't know if you've met Anakin, but that kind of thing tends to... motivate him.

Wow, just wow (again).

Anakin's fear of his own power is great enough that even in the face of defeat he would not be motivated enough to completely let go.

He has not done so in previous bouts that he has lost during the clone wars and he only finally did it upon Palpatine's intervention.

Anakin holds himself back.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions.

The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.

Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene. "Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind.

Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?

And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith.

It's made pretty evident in the book that Anakin simply cannot become enraged at will.

The more he does so, the more fearful he becomes and the more he focuses on holding himself back.

It took Palpatine's intervention to finally allow Skywalker to let go of his fear.

If you want to downplay that then I can downplay Skywalker's ability to focus.

'Sure, Anakin got enraged and powerful, but all it took was a little quip from Dooku to throw him off completely'.

Of course, I don't wish to exaggerate to such a degree. I just find your downplaying of Palpatine's role in the fight ludicrous.

---

It is bizarre to simply assume that Anakin will suddenly be fearful for his family and immediatly let go of the dread he holds for his own power just because he might lose a fight, especially when this has never occured before.

It's pure hype on your part.

It's pretty well established that said dread is something that is holding Anakin back immensly, something that can be taken advantage of to hinder him and something he was unable to overcome on his own.

In fact, in star wars, almost all cases of enragement and becoming stronger/letting go, glimpsing at ones potential requires some outside intervention such as watching a loved one fall in battle or encouragement to focus on one's anger, or in the case for many darksiders, pain and anguish feeding their rage.

If Caedus struck Padme down himself, I've no doubt Anakin would let go and come at him full force.

But I see no reason whatsoever to believe Anakin would suddenly get over his self imposed dread by worrying about the consequences of losing once the battle is no longer in his favour.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd still like to reiterate though, I do respect your knowledge of Star Wars which is undeniably superior to mine, even if I disagree with your observations on such information.
I'd still like to see you and Wollf have a proper debate on it.
I think It would prove a valuable source of insight to see both of you go at it rather than just you vs us guys.
But not yet, of course. I'm keeping WM209 for my Tournament :>

-----

Also, I'm too weak to disagree with people, so I'd like to sit in the audience for a bit.

Your guess is as good as mine as to why I like to debate star wars, when vehemently disagreeing with someone online gives me serious anxiety.

My love of Star Wars is both a blessing and a curse.

If you're wondering why I picked this post to randomly say that, well...

There's that and now I've got a Tournement to manage and a lot of University coursework to finish, so I'll have to bid you as well as comicvine battles as a whole, adieu, for now.

---

Don't rip apart my response too hard, ya hear?

Be gentle ;0;

But even if I disagree with your response, I'm more than happy to see insight from a different and more experienced perspective such as yours.

And whether I agree or not, I'm ready to learn.

---

Lel, and I know I'm acting like a baby, but I guess I am a lighthearted guy.

But that just confirms it; only something as great as Star Wars can make so many people who love the same thing and would likely be friends irl, disagree with such vigour.

And being the mushy guy I am, It takes a miracle to get me to continuously argue. So kudos to Star Wars for being great.

----

I hope you don't mind the mushy reply, lel.

I've just got things going on and you seem like a cool dude, so I'm sure you understand.

---

Jeez, the mushiness went on longer than I expected. I better cut this off before I start seeming wierd (probably too late)...

See you.

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#35 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords

As for Force feats, Anakin's more powerful. His feats are just better. Moving a dreadnought fast enough to intercept a missile is as good as any feat Caedus has, and Anakin did this shortly after AotC.

The dreadnought feat is slightly overhyped IMO. All he did was tilt a conqueror class atmospheric dreadnought, just barely. And even that wasn't done entirely by him. If one notices, the rear repulsor engines helped him there, and he did this 2.5 years pre-prime. This is not mentioning the fact that he was massively straining himself while doing so. For what? By proportion, the dreadnought should be 60 m in diameter and 25 m in height, and it is mostly hollow. That is pretty decent, but nothing like the showstopper many make it out to be. As for Caedus, he has collapsed a huge building, after throwing around scores of Vong warriors, more than 11 years pre-prime. Given his potential, Caedus's feat should be comfortably ahead.

And I don't think that losing to GM Luke, or even being thrown around by him, is an anti feat at all, certainly not to a bloodlusted GM Luke at least.

As for the fight on the Invisible Hand, Anakin was highly motivated, even before the fight itself. When Palpatine intervened, he simply reached a different state altogether, by his own admission.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/the-best-of-anakin-skywalker-rots-a-legends-respec-1832774/?page=3#js-message-17658103

You are a legend in debating here, so I am not sure how much of an effect I will have, but it's worth a shot.

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#36 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords

I almost feel I should apologize for the mushiness in my reply.

Now that I reread it, it seems a bit wierd.

But still, if we ever meet irl, drinks are on me.

I'd like to think we'd get along if we didn't disagree so often, lel.

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#37 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

Oh yeah, that was a rage induced Luke, wasn't it.

I'm not sure how that stacks against his injuries.

---

And yes, even after watching Kenobi fall in battle and with someone he cares about deeply at risk of death Anakin was unable to get over what was holding him back... his dread.

And even though that caused him to near it, all it took was Dun Moch from Dooku to unbalance Anakin and throw him off, such that he could not focus on winning, nor unleash his power and even momentarily performed poorer to before (from pushing Dooku back to clashing with parity and being dodged with ease, due to his lack of focus and his fear).

I doubt some random thoughts of loved ones during a battle is going to have anything close to the effect. Such an idea is unfounded and confounded.

---

EDIT: AH, stop it 339! You don't have time for debates.

That post, 2 posts ago was supposed to be my sign off on debates until Winter!

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#38 Posted by AotD (623 posts) - - Show Bio

Sabers probably go to Caedus; all out definitely for Anakin.

Unless Caedus get the high ground there`s no way he could beat the Choosen One :)

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#39 Edited by noobsnowman (3625 posts) - - Show Bio

The reason why Luke has Caedus dead to rights is because the latter was stuck at the tendrils, Caedus was far from ready to die. If this is neutral ground Caedus would just be slammed into a wall, and he would pick himself up and continue fighting. Luke basically won the fight due to the environment lol.

Not denying that Luke is Caedus' obvious superior, but then again it is to be expected anyways.

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#40 Posted by i_like_swords (26200 posts) - - Show Bio

The reason why Luke has Caedus dead to rights is because the latter was stuck at the tendrils, Caedus was far from ready to die. If this is neutral ground Caedus would just be slammed into a wall, and he would pick himself up and continue fighting. Luke basically won the fight due to the environment lol.

Not denying that Luke is Caedus' obvious superior, but then again it is to be expected anyways.

That's a pretty insane way to look at the fight given Caedus would have been dead within 3 strikes had he not used the environment, and he wouldn't have inflicted his first major wound on Luke had he not thrown a poisonous Vong rack at him.

The environment and Ben's presence is the only reason Caedus escaped. Caedus admitted as much.

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#42 Edited by noobsnowman (3625 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Oh boy, I'm nervous. Here goes nothing:

That's a pretty insane way to look at the fight

Not insane, but drastically different compared to the way you look at it. As highly as I view you a debater, your view of Caedus is something that I don't conform to.

Others have called your opinion on Caedus lowballing, but you are arguing objectively. Likewise, I am too looking at the fight objectively, so I don't appreciate it when you call my opinions insane.

Caedus would have been dead within 3 strikes had he not used the environment

I disagree. In a neutral environment, he would have force propelled himself away from Luke's blade to recreate distance. Or bring his blade to defend himself after failing the slash to the thighs.

The reason why he anchored the rack was to bait Luke to a position where he could slam him with the thorn bed.

he wouldn't have inflicted his first major wound on Luke had he not thrown a poisonous Vong rack at him.

If Jacen is as outclassed compared to the injured Luke as you view him as, he shouldn't be able to hit him at all. His force shields should have been able to detect an incoming thorn bed heading his way.

"Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.

The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising."

Jacen could have, at the very least, significantly damage Luke, or even kill him, within the time he was 'sneering and taking his time' while Luke's head was spinning and hearing fading, but he didn't due to his hubris.

Which is confirmed through the very next line:

Bad mistake.

Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke.

Caedus took his own sweet time and before he knew it, Luke broke free.

But in the end, to feign force lightning and hit Luke with the thorn bed speaks to how resourceful Jacen is as a fighter due to his subtle applications of telekinesis. After all, he employed the same tactic against Katarn during their fight and that immediately resulted in his victory.

The environment and Ben's presence is the only reason Caedus escaped. Caedus admitted as much.

Caedus admitted that it was Ben that saved his life, which I agree. Disagreed about the environment, though.

Also, to add on to my point that Luke won due to the environment, he virtually replicated Caedus' tactic of feigning a move then exploit the opening to hit his opponent extremely hard. In this context, Luke feigned a dash on Caedus' blind side and then slammed him with a force wave, sending him flying to the tendrils. In other words, Caedus and Luke had opportunities to kill the other, but didn't due to circumstances. If you claim that Luke won the fight by slamming Caedus to the tendrils, I could equally claim that Caedus won the fight when he slammed Luke with the thorn bed, both using the exact same tactic. That being said, Caedus was also injected with tendril inflicted venom and still fought strong thereafter.

Bear in mind, I am not arguing that Caedus is within Luke's league. He isn't, and a fresh Luke would defeat him every time in a convincing fashion. But his performance against an injured Luke, in my view, is nothing short of exceptional - though I'd agree that he would lose if the fight dragged on. I think in the end, it comes down to how you rank the injured Luke prior to engaging Caedus.

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#43 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords:

Thank you for the information.

No, he didn't.

@azronger said:

Palpatine lose to an all-out Yoda in three strikes.

Source please? Not doubting it or anything. Just curious.

He did, in the junior novelization:

An end, I must make. Yoda redoubled the speed of his blows. Palpatine parried one, then another — and then the red lightsaber spun out of his hands and over the edge. Yoda raised his weapon for the final blow.

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#44 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

Caedus easily.

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#45 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#46 Edited by the_wspanialy (4017 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Propably Anakin. His saber feats impress me more.

Round 2: Caedus. Much more willing to use the Force in combat, more skillful, greater variety, around the same level power-wise.

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#47 Posted by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump!

There's discussion to be had here.

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#48 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin as a Sith takes it unquestionably. Without drawing on the dark side (ie. the early stages of his duel with Dooku), then it's arguable, but I'd still favour Anakin, at least in sabers. Jacen's array of powers might be able to make a difference in all-out.

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#49 Posted by deactivated-5a1f22ffdd9b1 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin as a Sith takes it unquestionably. Without drawing on the dark side (ie. the early stages of his duel with Dooku), then it's arguable, but I'd still favour Anakin, at least in sabers. Jacen's array of powers might be able to make a difference in all-out.

I agree Anakin can compete with Caedus in lightsaber dueling, but there's no way he's winning a force duel or all out, and even if he was blood lusted I don't know if he could tap into enough of his potential to take Caedus down. I think we can agree that Caedus is faster than Anakin? If this was when they were both 22 then it would be fair. But come on people, he's comparable to Luke in speed, even if it's only loosely. I don't think Anakin will beat Cadeus in either force of sabers because Caedus is faster even if not as skilled.

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#50 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjarjar: Are we talking about Knightfall Vader? If so, his powers compare to Sidious. He can win.

Caedus is hardly comparable to Luke in speed. Luke tagged his kidney with his first strike. He's considerably faster than Jacen. It's a noticeably bigger gap then, say, Dooku vs Yoda in speed. And Anakin's speed is in league with Yoda and Palpatine's; Caedus has no advantages there.