Stops at Dooku or sidious. Grievous would be rough, but TCW Grievous honestly has inferior feats to Anakin. He wins all the way up to maul easily, struggles with maul and Kenobi, and narrowly loses to Dooku
@webinyoureye11: the order is just so wrong bruh... Maul beat Obi Wan, but he is below him. Savage beat Ventress but he is below her. Sidious beat Yoda but he is below him. These are all matches that were concluded on screen. Impossible to call by round with the order all over the place.
@thoromdil: Maul beat Obi Wan, but he is below him.
And yet in their last encounter, Obi Wan held off him & his brother at the same time
What feat does Maul have that’s better? & remember that Obi wan was matching maul solo prior as well as when he went 1v2 after savage killed adi, even with 1 saber. if for only a short time
Savage beat Ventress but he is below her.
When did this happen? When they fought in the cargo ship, Ventress had only 1 blade & still held her own, even kicking away maul at the end. I don’t see why Ventress with 2 blades shouldnt be better than savage.
Sidious beat Yoda but he is below him.
Link for this? I remember Yoda being on the front foot the whole time
These are all matches that were concluded on screen.
I'd put Grievous above Fisto tbh, even though Fisto out-performed him, Grievous' Doctor stated he was not in suitable condition to fight, but they should be near equals regardless.
@breakofdawn: And then he gets wrecked by Dooku's force lightning. In addition, Dooku and Anakin constantly fluctuate throughout the war in relation to each other, with Anakin being a near of Dooku at the beginning to being trounced even with Obi Wan's help at Polis Massa (I think). @webinyoureye11 could I be added to you star wars callouts list?
@nebulous_storm: And then he gets wrecked by Dooku's force lightning.
At point blank range. Dooku had to wait for an opening while Anakin choked him to do that:
In addition, Dooku and Anakin constantly fluctuate throughout the war in relation to each other, with Anakin being a near of Dooku at the beginning to being trounced even with Obi Wan's help at Polis Massa (I think).
He wasn't being "trounced" in that fight. Dooku landed a single hit on him then was forced back by the two while breathing heavily. The two then 1v1ed again briefly, with neither having a clear edge.
@breakofdawn: That could have been an easy win for Dooku. I believe that he spared Anakin because of Sidious's plans for him. Dooku could have just stabbed him with his lightsaber at that point if he wanted too. I clearly need to rewatch the fight a Polis Massa, because my memory must be flawed.
@breakofdawn: That could have been an easy win for Dooku. I believe that he spared Anakin because of Sidious's plans for him. Dooku could have just stabbed him with his lightsaber at that point if he wanted too. I clearly need to rewatch the fight a Polis Massa, because my memory must be flawed.
No, he spared Anakin because he had to retreat with Palpatine. Using lightning doesn't show he's superior, it just emphasises how desperate he became.
No, he spared Anakin because he had to retreat with Palpatine. Using lightning doesn't show he's superior, it just emphasises how desperate he became.
Just because he used lightning does not necessarily mean he was desperate. Even if he was desperate, it would have been very easy to kill Anakin. As in, he could literally just decapitate Anakin while he was convulsing and before he went flying back. I also think Dooku sparing Anakin in general is mentioned in a book, I just can not remember which one. Also, which season was that in?
@nebulous_storm: Just because he used lightning does not necessarily mean he was desperate.
He's on the ground, Anakin's hand around his throat and with Anakin pushing his lightsaber back towards his face. He then had to cheapshot him with something Anakin has no defence against by moving his free hand under Anakin's defences:
As in, he could literally just decapitate Anakin while he was convulsing and before he went flying back.
If he could have, he would have. Dooku had no qualms about killing Anakin at this point. Also worth mentioning that Anakin was up seconds after:
Gallery
Dooku had to use both hands to project the FL and then knock him back, which after doing so he had no interest in following up on because that wasn't his job (he was however perfectly willing to kill Anakin).
I also think Dooku sparing Anakin in general is mentioned in a book, I just can not remember which one.
It's mentioned in ROTS, set around 2 years after this under different circumstances when Palpatine explicitly told him not to kill Anakin. Remember that Sidious sent Ventress after Anakin to kill him shortly after AOTC? Sidious didn't fully commit to taking Anakin as an apprentice until ROTS. Before that, he was simply interested in him.
@breakofdawn: Ok, I was about to concede, but I think a quote from Lord_Tenebrous can explain my view well. The quote is, "Anakin narrowly lost the Tatooine duel, stalemated Dooku in the first Naboo duel, did so again in the second, and matched him in Dark Disciple. Then with Obi-Wan for backup, was being trounced on Oba Diah, and simultaneously struggled against Ventress the entire war. We know that Dooku was only grooming Anakin for apprenticeship and was never trying to hurt/kill him, so clearly he was massively holding back. There's a reason why Anakin only seemingly does well against Dooku when he's alone, and consistently struggles against people he should be able to stomp if he was really Dooku level in TCW."
EDIT:This is the best way to explain it, I think.
Edit2: So I'm dumb. I said Polis Massa in one of my comments, but the fight I was actually referring to was Oba Diah
@nebulous_storm: Ok, I was about to concede, but I think a quote from Lord_Tenebrous can explain my view well. The quote is, "Anakin narrowly lost the Tatooine duel, stalemated Dooku in the first Naboo duel, did so again in the second, and matched him in Dark Disciple.
Anakin was physically overpowering Dooku in the first Naboo duel:
As for the second, he was overpowering him as shown above.
Then with Obi-Wan for backup, was being trounced on Oba Diah,
I'm sorry, but this is utterly false. Obi-Wan was the one getting trashed and - frankly - offered very little in the fight besides getting in the way. Dooku landed a single kick on Anakin, whereas Anakin/Obi-Wan were forcing him back and left him breathing heavily. That's also S6 Dooku vs S6 Anakin, two iterations not in use here.
and simultaneously struggled against Ventress the entire war.
First, Dooku trained Ventress so already has a significant advantage against her compared to Anakin. Second, Anakin and Ventress didn't fight from S3 onwards, so it's impossible to use Ventress as a benchmark for their abilities in comparison to each other.
We know that Dooku was only grooming Anakin for apprenticeship and was never trying to hurt/kill him,
That's in Legends. It was never a thing in Canon. Even in Legends, it's barely a thing and is only mentioned once by Lucas and once in the ROTS novel, in both cases being a situation relevant only to ROTS as a "final test" where Dooku had to quickly go all-out to stand a chance at winning.
so clearly he was massively holding back.
Dooku has never even been hinted to be holding back against Anakin in TCW. On the contrary, he's clearly had to exert himself nearly every time.
There's a reason why Anakin only seemingly does well against Dooku when he's alone, and consistently struggles against people he should be able to stomp if he was really Dooku level in TCW."
He does better against Dooku alone because the Count is a master at tripping up multiple opponents and exploiting their weaknesses. Against Anakin, it's exponentially harder to do that than against someone like Obi-Wan.
Anakin was physically overpowering Dooku in the first Naboo duel
As for the second, he was overpowering him as shown above.
That would be a feat of strength, not skill, but Dooku's preferred lightsaber style, Makashi, is weak to strength. While Dooku may compensate for it well, that is still a factor at play. Regardless, their first duel can be regarded as an inconsistency, since I doubt Anakin jumped that far in s1 since AOTC, where he was a mere tier 5/6.
I'm sorry, but this is utterly false. Obi-Wan was the one getting trashed and - frankly - offered very little in the fight besides getting in the way.
He only got in the way near the beginning, as for the rest of the time, they were not next to each other. At the bare minimum, I would say this is countered and then some by the fact that he at least served as a distraction to Dooku and made it so Dooku could not just focus on Anakin.
Dooku landed a single kick on Anakin, whereas Anakin/Obi-Wan were forcing him back and left him breathing heavily.
The reason only a single kick was landed was because of the reason above. Also, Anakin and Obi wan only pushed him back at the very beginning until the went past the corridor. Then, Dooku was not getting forced back as much as chasing Anakin while holding off Obi-Wan. Then, after hitting Kenobi to the ground, he had enough time to land a kick on Anakin. While Dooku may be very fit for his age, he does tire. For example, in the ROTS novel, even when he thought he was still toying with them, he commented how it was getting tiring. In addition, I was unaware that his breathing was that heavy.
That's also S6 Dooku vs S6 Anakin, two iterations not in use here.
That merely serves as a detriment to Anakin, as he experienced far more growth than Dooku over the course of the war, leaping from a 5/6 in AOTC to a high 8 in ROTS while Dooku was in tier 8 in AOTC and stayed that way in ROTS. Every bit of time counts for Anakin due to his enormous growth speed, especially considering that Anakin growed at a far faster rate in the last few months of the war.
First, Dooku trained Ventress so already has a significant advantage against her compared to Anakin. Second, Anakin and Ventress didn't fight from S3 onwards, so it's impossible to use Ventress as a benchmark for their abilities in comparison to each other.
While that may be so, it further illustrates that there were circumstances to Anakin's duels against Dooku in and before s3, since he was still struggling against Ventress, even with Kenobi's help. If you want a comparison that fits more to s4, you can take Savage's fight against Anakin and Obi-wan just after betraying Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku. While this serves as an amazing feat for Savage, unless you say that Savage is <= or > than Dooku, it shows that Obi-wan and Anakin are not powerful enough to remotely contend with Dooku on their own.
That's in Legends. It was never a thing in Canon. Even in Legends, it's barely a thing and is only mentioned once by Lucas and once in the ROTS novel, in both cases being a situation relevant only to ROTS as a "final test" where Dooku had to quickly go all-out to stand a chance at winning.
If that is so, it can either be proven with the points above or his duels in TCW have to be regarded as an inconsistency.
Dooku has never even been hinted to be holding back against Anakin in TCW. On the contrary, he's clearly had to exert himself nearly every time.
See points above.
He does better against Dooku alone because the Count is a master at tripping up multiple opponents and exploiting their weaknesses. Against Anakin, it's exponentially harder to do that than against someone like Obi-Wan.
While that may be so, see points above. EDIT: I mostly agree with what is just above this (it is an exaggeration)
I can see him stopping at Grievous, but does not make it past Kenobi. Like someone else mentioned, he is a hard counter for Anakin's style and personality. Anakin can likely take out other people that can beat Kenobi but Obi-Wan will usually have his number. Even if he does make it past Obi-Wan, he stops at Dooku in an all out brawl. He has no real counter for the lightning other than his lightsaber.
He has difficulty with Savage and above, and stops at Dooku
Grievous is borderline fodder in canon and should even be discussed in this thread. Ahsoka as a child contended with him just fine, and so did fodder Gungans. I rest my case....
@lord_god: yep 100%. Im pretty sure there is even a quote from Filoni where he says Grievous isn’t capable of beating masters or something like that, and that’s backed up by him struggling with mid war Ahsoka and my favorite ✨fodder gungans✨
@lord_god: yep 100%. Im pretty sure there is even a quote from Filoni where he says Grievous isn’t capable of beating masters or something like that, and that’s backed up by him struggling with mid war Ahsoka and my favorite ✨fodder gungans✨
Filoni also said that it was purely his own opinion, so this doesn't qualify as an official statement. Grievous is among the deadlier figures in the Clone Wars, as shown by his ability to consistently trounce Obi-Wan, go head-to-head with the Council Masters, face off Ventress and Maul individually on major dark side nexuses, hardpress prime Obi-Wan while environmentally hindered, etc.
He surely ins't beating Maul with his S4 lvl, and this gauntlet is out of order. And people are still sleeping on Grievous when the later is actually portrated better than Obi-Wan as a overall warrior if you take away the force which Obi-Wan use all the times to beat Grievous in TCW.
@lord_god: yep 100%. Im pretty sure there is even a quote from Filoni where he says Grievous isn’t capable of beating masters or something like that, and that’s backed up by him struggling with mid war Ahsoka and my favorite ✨fodder gungans✨
This is ridiculous. Grievous already outright beat Obi-Wan in a duel in TCW (he kicked him so hard that Obi-Wan wasn't able to fight back properly anymore and had to retreat) and Obi-Wan>The vast majority of the masters, and yet according to your logic he can't beat random Jedi masters ?
Grevious, someone who held an advantage against a late Clone Wars Maul on a Darkside Nexus, gave Kit Fisto a hard time despite being injured and "not in fighting condition, and defeated Obi Wan at several points throughout TCW (including later seasons), is below Ventress, Kit Fisto, and Savage? Yeah no. He should be below Maul here (though I could see a case for him being below Ashoka). Anyway Anakin either stops there or at Maul if we are only given TCW feats.
@lord_god: yep 100%. Im pretty sure there is even a quote from Filoni where he says Grievous isn’t capable of beating masters or something like that, and that’s backed up by him struggling with mid war Ahsoka and my favorite ✨fodder gungans✨
???
That quote is complete bullshit as shown by multiple instances throughout TCW era.
Can you read? I literally showed multiple instances of Grievous outfighting Obi-Wan throughout the clone wars, not to mention he defeated Adi Gallia, a council member who by intent is >>>>> the average master. He also contended with Prime Maul and gave ROTS Obi-Wan a difficult time, the same Obi-Wan who stalemated Mustafar Vader over a lengthy battle. That doesn't sound like someone who is 'borderline fodder'.
@lord_god: he fought early war Obi Wan....not that impressive at all.
Fodder Gungans > Grievous
Trust me I wish Grievous was a beast like he was in legends, but he just isn’t. He was also physically overpowered by Season 1 Ahsoka while he was actively choking her. She twisted his hand and escaped.
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