@hittheassasin said:
Plagueis has a complete lack of applicable Saber feats
Does that mean he is necessarily inept with one?
You would have to posit that Sidious was a significantly better duelist than Plagueis leading up to TPM, despite being his inferior/rough equal in terms of power with nigh-identical training. I don't see a valid reason for why that would be the case. James Luceno said if they had a direct fight it would be close, but he actually thought Plagueis could "undermine his apprentice." And also, while discussing Darth Maul's "fight" with Sidious, it's mentioned that Maul was led to believe he is more skilled than he really is. Sidious asks if Plagueis did not do the same for him, but Plagueis responds that he has always been truthful about Sidious' skill, which in this case would refer to a context where Sidious can provide a serious challenge to Plagueis, presumably through their sparring matches and training sessions.
"Regardless, you allowed him to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is."
"Did you not do the same for me?"
Plagueis' eyes reflected in disappointment. "Never, Sidious. I have always been truthful with you."
--Darth Plagueis
To me, I don't see why Sidious would use Plagueis, his primary lightsaber instructor, and his opinion as a barometer for his skill if he was much more skilled than his master. His master's opinion would not matter. And if Sidious was a far better duelist than Plagueis, Plagueis wouldn't be extending an olive branch saying "No, kid, you are really good, I promise" - it would be apparent to both of them who is better.
It appears that, like in most cases, the master is the tutor and the superior of the apprentice up until the fateful day they fight, at which point they're about equal.
So if you believe it's reasonable that Plagueis and Sidious are roughly equal duelists at this time, then I would mention that Sidious is so much faster than Maul around this time the latter can't even follow his lightsaber blade.
The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.
--Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul
Maul around the age of 17, at the final stage of his Sith trial was again embarrassed by Sidious. Now, Maul was severely injured and fatigued at the time, however, he also drew on a rage like nothing else he had ever felt, pumping energy into his muscles, making him believe he can "do anything." He believes he's driving back Sidious but it's later revealed that Sidious had "just begun to tap into his reserves" and was wielding a training lightsaber. He was toying with Maul in possibly his most powerful incarnation up to that time.
A slow rage begins to burn through me. It is a terrible anger, no less fierce because it starts as a kernel of disbelief and then builds. I have never felt anything like it. I know it can consume me.
No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master.
Yes, my Master is now my enemy. He is my betrayer. Hatred sears me, hardens me.
"Can you make the next leap in logic?" Lord Sidious asks me contemptuously. "Try to focus, Maul. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die. Maul?"
The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.
With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two. He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.
I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.
He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.
"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"
"Yes," I grunt.
"You hate me?"
"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.
[...]
But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.
--Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul
Sidious also blitzed Maul during Shadow Conspiracy, and while Sidious had grown more powerful here since TPM, so had Maul at a fairly similar rate, so the theme seems to hold true; Sidious-level fighters are far too fast for Maul-level fighters to respond to.
Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.
--Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
RotS Anakin, at his very best, was dominating Dooku in a similar manner, however there are some circumstances which led to him achieving that state which many dub the "zone", including Sidious himself goading Anakin on and his personal history with Dooku. It was a tenuous state of mind, because as shown in the RotS novel, all it takes is Dooku using Dun Moch to throw Anakin off his game. I would say that Anakin would fluctuate beneath and perhaps above Plagueis in dueling ability depending on how the fight goes.
A few other things to note about Plagueis:
1. He was praised as a master duelist by Tenebrous, himself a master duelist enthusiastic in the art.
2. Venamis was Plagueis' equal in power and he had been training by Tenebrous in how to counter Plagueis' unique fighting style personally; in other words Venamis had fought Plagueis many times before they fought for real by sparring with his master, knew all of his weaknesses and what moves he would make next, and yet still, Plagueis forced a stalemate with him and went on to defeat him by re-allocating his energy appropriately.
To Plagueis, lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotion and needless acrobatics. Tenebrous, however, who had pronounced Plagueis a master of the art, had always enjoyed a good fight, and had clearly bequeathed that enthusiasm to his other trainee. For no sooner had the blades of their weapons clashed than Venamis began to bring the fight to him in unexpected ways, twirling his surprisingly limber body, tossing the lightsaber from hand to hand, mixing forms. At one point he leapt onto an overhanging greel branch and, when Plagueis severed it with a Force blow, hung suspended in the air-no mean feat in itself-and continued the fight, as if from high ground. Worse for Plagueis, Tenebrous had made Venamis an expert in Plagueis's style, and so the Bith could not only anticipate but counter Plagueis's every move.
[...]
Realizing that the fight could go on indefinitely, he took himself out of his body and began working his material self like a marionette, no longer on the offensive, instigating attacks, but merely responding to Venamis's lunges and strikes. Gradually the Bith understood that something had changed-that what up until then had been a fight to the death seemed suddenly like a training exercise. Exasperated, he doubled his efforts, fighting harder, more desperately, putting more power into each maneuver and blow, and in the end surrendering his precision and accuracy.
At the height of Venamis's attack, Plagueis came back into himself with such fury that his lightsaber became a blinding rod. A two-handed upward swing launched from between his legs caught Venamis off guard. The blade didn't go deep enough to puncture the Bith's lung but scorched him from chest to chin. As his large, cleft head snapped backward in retreat, Plagueis brought his lightsaber straight down, tearing Venamis's weapon from his gloved hand and nearly taking off his long fingers, as well.
3. I'm presuming Sidious didn't master the 7 lightsaber forms by accident, nor did he train Maul in Juyo, Niman, Ataru and numerous other unarmed martial arts with knowledge he came upon at random. Nor do I think it's any accident that Venamis was an ambidextrous duelist who could mix between multiple forms at will. Therefore, it's simple to infer that Plagueis is a master of all lightsaber styles with both hands, who can swap between them easily, and even in a battle with a near-equal who has a massive edge in knowledge, Plagueis has the tactical insight to gain an advantage over him.
Unless you can provide some reasonable arguments for why we shouldn't take him as a Sidious-level duelist around TPM, then that's sort of what we have to do. Arguments I commonly hear like "he was more of a scholar/researcher/Force user than a lightsaber duelist" are clearly irrelevant, because he was proclaimed a master by Tenebrous, has numerous feats demonstrating his skill, and trained and sparred with Sidious in the art. And that's even bearing in mind Plagueis didn't like lightsaber combat, because guess what, Sidious thought it was meaningless as well. And people also say that he spent little time practising with a lightsaber, so his skills must have gotten rusty, but again, the same criticism can be applied to Sidious, and that has never hampered him due to how absurdly powerful he is.
So again, to sum up, I think Plagueis is a good enough duelist to give Anakin a serious run for his money, but also has a wider range of Force abilities (including ones Anakin cannot counter) and a superior tactical mind, which could net him the win here.
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