Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi vs Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, and Agen Kolar

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Chubbs

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Anakin and Obi Wan vs the Jedi Masters Mace Windu brought with him to either arrest or destroy Palpatine.

-Morals on

-EU and Canon feats allowed

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Th310rbit

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RotS Team 1 win in a probable stomp.

If AotC Team 1, then team 2 wins.

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Lord_Spectrum

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Team 1.

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SirDrProfessor

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Duo everytime

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deactivated-5a20a68641bc7

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Although Anakin is Obi-Wan's superior, it would make more sense for Obi-Wan to hold off two of their opponents whilst Anakin deals with the remaining master. I think Kenobi's solid defence should be able to endure long enough for Anakin to take down his opponent, at which point this becomes a 2-v-2 which Obi-Wan and Anakin really can't lose.

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AmethystGravity

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Anakin as a Jedi still wrecks whoever he faces, and Obi-wan is also noticeably better than any of his foes.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#7  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

Team 2 wins solidly every time. Ignoring the fact that neither member of team 1 has done anything to suggest they're better than any member of team 2 on an individual basis, it's already been confirmed that each member of team 2 > Obi-Wan and Anakin:

"Anakin loyally delivered news of this discovery to Windu, and Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors to arrest the Chancellor."

-- Insider #100

"Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors -- Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto -- to arrest the Chancellor."

-- StarWars.com: Databank(old)

There's nothing to discuss. Team 2 every time.

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AlexTheBoss

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@lord_tenebrous: You are severely twisting that statement. And if we take all statements literally then ep 2 Kenobi is as powerful as Windu and as wise as Yoda. Anakin was confirmed to be a tier 9 in his prime by Gilard, and Mace was an 8 bordering 9. To say the characters above who are fodder compared to Mace are above ROTS Anakin or Obi-wan is insane.

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Kilius

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#9  Edited By Kilius

Team 2 for a majority. Anakin's a slow starter and even once's he's fully fired up he'll have his hands full with two of the best at the same time. I honestly don't think he can take both of them. Two against one is a huge disadvantage when you are at this level - if he had Maul or Ventress's agility and martial art prowess or Dooku's mastery of positioning he might have a chance but he's a head-to-head pressure fighter, he's not cut out for that kind of fight.

If two take on Kenobi then Anakin should be able to finish his opponent before Kenobi goes down. The two of them should be able to finish the other two.

Most likely though the council will know to send two against the more powerful and I don't think Kenobi can quickly kill his opponent in time to help Anakin.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@alextheboss:

No I'm not. It quite explicitly states that Tiin, Fisto and Kolar are Mace's finest warriors. Anakin's AOTC statement is in-verse and subjective, and Gillard is not an official source.

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The_Swaggot

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“Finest warriors” who became kabobs within 2 seconds. Anakin and Obi-Wan win.

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KingJedi

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#12  Edited By KingJedi

@lord_tenebrous: I know you’re not being serious, because I know you’re smarter than that. Maybe you’re trying to make a point about reading into those flavor texts too much and too literally? I don’t know, but just in case someone stops by and is misinformed by your comment, no....that’s ludicrous.

Obi-Wan was off world and Anakin was removed only because of his Palpatine connection. Of the people left, they were among the best. Nothing in that indicates they are better than Obi-Wan or Anakin, or hell.. Yoda by your logic.There’s not a Star Wars debater alive who believes any of those Jedi are better than Anakin and Obi-Wan.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#13  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@kingjedi:

I am 100% serious. The unfounded concept of all the main characters somehow being the best is a deeply entrenched but ultimately baseless idea.

Read again. The quote doesn't say "Mace gathered a team of his finest warriors available." It says his finest warriors, period. Not only does each member of the B-team have better dueling feats than Obi-Wan and Anakin, but these official quotes solidify their superiority.

And, Yoda is not included in that quote because he isn't one of Mace's warriors. Mace is one of his.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@the_swaggot:

They were massively hindered when Sidious killed them, Obi-Wan and Anakin would have died just as quickly.

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KingJedi

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#15  Edited By KingJedi
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Lord_Tenebrous

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#16  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@kingjedi:

I'm only abiding by the established facts, as laid out by the official source material. Such as:

- A pre-prime Fisto dominated General Grievous

- A pre-prime Kolar stomped Quinlan Vos

- A pre-prime Saesee contended with TPM Mace

By comparison, Kenobi was repeatedly trounced by Grievous during TCW, and only narrowly gained the edge over Grievous in ROTS with an environmental advantage plus other circumstances that hindered Grievous. Anakin on the other hand struggled to overcome IG-102, a noticeably sub-Grievous opponent. This isn't new stuff, just overlooked material. Anakin and Kenobi have always been B-team level, and as per these sources, they're not as good as Fisto, Saesee or Kolar.

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JacenSolo

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Team 1 stomps. They're strong Jedi but not close to Anakin and Obi-Wan.

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KingJedi

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#18  Edited By KingJedi

@lord_tenebrous: Okay well now I know you’re messing with me. And I’m talking Canon.

Obi-Wan absolutely dominated Grievous in the lightsaber portion of their fight....he only needed to get dirty after he’d lost his weapon to the clones’ cannons. So you’re blatantly lying and misrepresenting encounters now.

Yes Fisto did well against a Grievous who was warned in the episode not to engage the Jedi since he hadn’t time to recover so he was in a weakened state. Not only that, but Fisto had a battle field advantage with the heavy fog. Grievous was effectively blind, while Fisto had the force and used it to his advantage. It was a focal point of the fight.... and he still ran. Again you’re just being straight up disingenuous in your descriptions of these encounters.

I actually can’t believe you’re getting me to write out responses to this. Good job.. but this is beyond silly so I’m out.

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thebluedragon20

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Team 1 destroys

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Greysentinel365

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#20  Edited By Greysentinel365

Anakin can near oneshot any of them. MF Kenobi can as well. IH beats them in short order.

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Co-Boss

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Team one should take it mid diff. Both obi wan and anakin are above anyone on the other team. Besides that one statement that was when so many Jedi were away or unavailable (both of which apply to team 1 as obi wan was dealing with grevious, and anakin couldn’t go bc of his connection with palp), none of team 2 have feats to say they are on team 1s level. Obi wan has done better against every character team 2 has fought, and trying to say that any of them are above anakin is absurd. Team 1 takes is 10/10 if two opponents go after kenobi, his soresu being more than enough to hold a double team off that’s far weaker than savage and maul (ofc he won’t have a second light saber but he should still be fine). Anakin would proceed to stomp or low diff his opponent, especially if it’s against tiin. After that it’s a 2v2 that looks very bleak for team 2, and that’s if kenobi doesn’t manage to take either of his opponents out.

Now if 2 go after anakin there is a much higher chance of failure for the team. Obiwan would be expected to go on the offensive to take his opponent out quickly to help anakin, but that’s outside kenobis comfort zone. It take people on dooku tier to beat kenobi which no one here is, but he’s definitely not beat someone as quick as anakin based on his style. Anakin will be trying to go offensive against 2 people at once which could really bite him and lose him some rounds for over extending. 8.5/10 for that scenario.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#23  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@kingjedi:

Okay well now I know your messing with me. And I’m talking Canon.

I'm not, and I'm talking composite, because this thread is composite.

Obi-Wan absolutely dominated Grievous in the lightsaber portion of their fight.... so you’re blatantly lying and misrepresenting encounters now.

Not at all true. It was a good fight:

"As Anakin comes to the realization that Palpatine is in fact the Sith Lord the Jedi are hunting, Obi-Wan leads his clone troops in an attack on Grievous' droid army on the planet Utapau. After a ferocious lightsaber duel and high-speed chase through the multilevel tunnels and plazas of Pau City, where the Jedi finally destroys Grievous using the cyborg's own blaster."

-- Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

"As Republic and Seperatist laser fire flashed around them, Kenobi and Grievous were locked in a fierce duel."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

"...Both were aware of the skill of the other -- it was not going to be an easy fight."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

In fact, Obi-Wan was heavily pressured to withstand Grievous' assault:

"His arms seperate and grab all four lightsabers on his belt. His four arms create a flashing display of swordsmanship. OBI-WAN: 'You forget I trained the Jedi that defeated Count Dooku!' OBI-WAN is hard-pressed to defend himself against the deadly onslaught."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

Obi-Wan didn't even beat him. He gained the upper hand, and circumstantially at that. Obi-Wan took the first hand when Grievous was environmentally hindered and with a knowledge advantage:

"Jedi and cyborg fought briefly along a catwalk suspended over the lower levels of the hangar. By limiting Grievous' movement to the catwalk, Obi-Wan was able to neutralise the General's usually more ranging fighting style. Kenobi kept the fight close to the cyborg and, used to Grievous' moves now after so many encounters, it wasn't long before a clawed mechanical hand and the lightsaber it had once held clattered down onto the deck."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

He took the second hand when Grievous became enraged and lost focus:

"Grievous was incensed. He launched a blistering attack, but his focus was gone. A matter of seconds later, he lost another hand and weapon."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

And guess what? Grievous still thought he could win:

"Army or not, you must realize, you are doomed."

-- General Grievous(Revenge of the Sith)

Compared to his fight with Fisto where he openly acknowledged that he was losing. More than likely, he regained his focus and his two-bladed fighting style wouldn't be as environmentally hindered as his four-bladed technique.

Kenobi with a plethora of advantages aiding him only narrowly managed to take the upper hand over a Grievous who still thought he could win. Hardly an absolute domination.

Yes Fisto did well against a Grievous who was told multiple times in the episode not engage the Jedi since he hadn’t time to recover so he was in a weakened state.

Grievous was only warned to not engage the Jedi once by his medical droid, who said "in your condition, you need your rest." It's meaningless (subjective) filler dialogue, that's contradicted by actual events and other sources. That's a common phrase used by doctors and other medical staff in tv shows and such, and is only applicable to organics. Grievous was injured only in purely mechanical areas -- his mask was blackened and his legs were severed. These were fully repaired on-screen, and Grievous wouldn't need any rest to recover. TCW also includes phrases like "God-forsaken" and "hell," it's just ill-thought-out dialogue. Plus, it's confirmed by multiple objective OOU sources that Grievous was repaired:

"The lair was discovered by investigating Jedi and clones, who surprised the General and demanded his surrender. While he suffered severe injuries, Grievous escaped and was restored by his doctor, A-4D; he regrouped to unleash a surprise of his own on the Jedi: Gor, his vicious pet roggwart."

-- StarWars.com: Databank

"As the Jedi tried to reach Grievous in his command center, the general sent his pet roggwart Gor after them while his repair droid worked to fix the damage inflicted by the Jedi and clone troopers. After repairs had been completed, Grievous checked on the Jedi to see if they had been killed, but discovered that his beloved pet had been slain by the Jedi instead."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

"As the Jedi tried to reach Grievous, the general sent his pet roggwart Gor after them, while his repair droid worked to fix his damaged limbs. As the restored general emerged, Vebb confronted Grievous, and the two fought as Fisto sneaked into the command center."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

"As the Jedi tried to reach Grievous' command center, the general appeared, newly restored by his repair droid, to face Kit Fisto in a climatic duel."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files Relaunched

So yeah. Grievous was absolutely battle-ready.

Not only that, but Fisto had a battle field advantage with the heavy fog. Grievous was effectively blind, while Fisto had the force and used it to his advantage. It was a focal point of the fight.... and he still ran. Again you’re just being straight up disingenuous in your descriptions of these encounters.

You haven't watched the fight recently have you. Here it is:

https://youtu.be/PXfILtcRv5c

Fisto only uses the fog at one single point in the duel, and only uses it to execute one single strike, which Grievous successfully blocks. They then hold the bladelock for an entire 9 seconds while exchanging dialogue. At no point did Fisto ever gain the upper hand through use of the fog.

Fisto dominated Grievous in the fight afterward. He took one hand, forced Grievous back and landed a Force Push. Then he stands there grinning, not taking advantage of the fact that Grievous is lying on the ground completely exposed, allowing Grievous to recover and attack -- which Fisto not only stonewalls but actually advances on Grievous while defending. A mere 2 seconds after Fisto assumes the offensive, Grievous is visibly barely able to defend himself.

The fact is, whether you like it or not, and no matter how hard people here deny it, each member of the B-team is a better fighter than Obi-Wan or Anakin:

"Anakin loyally delivered news of this discovery to Windu, and Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors to arrest the Chancellor."

-- Insider #100

"Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors -- Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto -- to arrest the Chancellor."

-- StarWars.com: Databank(old)

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#24  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@kingjedi:

Heck, even Obi-Wan's superior in ROTS Anakin was struggling against IG-102, one of Grievous' guards:

"ANAKIN struggles to defend himself against the other manic DROID BODYGUARD."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

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The_Swaggot

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@lord_tenebrous: Assuming this is ROTS Anakin, he is already at a power level just below Sidious. Throw in Obi-Wan and they’re about even with him.

Aside from Fisto these other guys are essentially featless. Ani and Kenobi should win with hardly a problem.

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Kilius

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Anakin drives Dooku back but struggles to defend himself from a fearless droid attacking him with reckless abandon. Almost like styles and situations make fights.

This was written as the first time Anakin and Obi-Wan fought these guys and they have worry about Grievous who could have sprung into action at any moment.

In the same script Kenobi blitzed one of them later in a second-time encounter:

"The BODYGUARDS raise their power staffs to knock OBI-WAN away, but OBI-WAN ducks as the deadly staffs whistle over his head. The Jedi's lightsaber ignites, and OBI-WAN deftly cuts one BODYGUARD in two." - RotS Script

It was just a first encounter difficulty. Once they had a measure on their style they aren't a problem.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@kilius:

There's no evidence that Anakin was legitimately pushing back Dooku who as per Lucas was holding back against Anakin, and Makashi is a primarily defensive style like Soresu so it doesn't mean much regardless.

The excerpt that has Obi-Wan stomp a MagnaGuard was completely revised while the one I'm using wasn't, which kinda throws your whole argument down the drain.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@the_swaggot:

I disagree. A circumstantially enraged Vader on Mustafar was strained to withstand Obi-Wan's power, and according to statements Obi-Wan isn't as powerful as Plo Koon, who also by statements is less powerful than Ki-Adi Mundi. And I'm pretty sure that Sidious is at least solidly above those guys.

Agen Kolar twice stomped a high-tier Master like Quinlan Vos, and Saesee Tiin has sparred evenly with TPM Mace Windu. They aren't at all featless.

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Redshift_Bacon

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#29  Edited By Redshift_Bacon

Anakin can likely solo, He is around Dooku/Mace level. Obi Wan is also individually above every one of the Jedi Masters.

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Kilius

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@lord_tenebrous:

Dooku might not have been fighting to kill Anakin from the outset but he was instructed to kill Kenobi and defeat Anakin and make it look real and if at any point Dooku felt his life was in jeopardy he would have stopped holding back regardless of the plan, as the RotS novel indicates:

“You will duel them, ” Sidious had said. “Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared.Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But aboveall, you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus.” - LoE

Sidious is also willing to risk the life of his potential prospects just to see if they are worthy of the mantel, he put Maul through a ridiculous amount of ordeal where he could have easily gotten killed and waste 17 years of work when he put Maul through the Hypori trials. Its the Sith way of thinking, if you can't survive the trials then you aren't worthy. No reason to believe Anakin was any different.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@kilius:

I assumed that when you referred to Anakin pushing back Dooku, you were talking about when they were 1v1ing. Because as I'm sure you've read in other posts, it's pretty firmly established that Dooku was not at all strained in defending himself when they were attacking as a team. 

Dooku thought that Sidious would save him if Skywalker endangered him. There's really no evidence that Skywalker posed a threat until the very end, and indeed Dooku's domination of them prior indicates otherwise. 

Reality is Dooku was a mega-prodigy who has been abnormally concentrating on his dueling skills for 8 decades, and was able to stalemate an all-out Yoda for nearly 40 seconds while exhausted. If you read a little further back in that chapter, Dooku notes that his relationship with Sidious is more of a partnership, and indeed if you've read Darth Plagueis, Luceno very heavily hits on the idea that Dooku was a peer of Sidious, whether by Plagueis' own musings or those of Sidious. Plus it's stated in the Relaunched Fact Files that Sidious ordered Ventress' termination because he thought that if she grew any more powerful than she was then, it would be enough for Dooku to overthrow Sidious. And we know that a stronger Ventress was still vastly less powerful than Dooku, i.e. if Sidious is an 11, Dooku is a 10 and Ventress is a 2. 

Dooku has always been up there with Yoda and his ilk, and you can't really read the script and watch the movie and still conclude that Anakin was intended to be on their level.

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ZacharyHampton

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#32  Edited By ZacharyHampton

Yikes.

Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi stomp. In fact, either can solo this. Going by Nick Gillard’s scale (which should be taken at face value, as I would think Nick Gillard would know best about the lightsaber abilities of Rise of the Empire Era Duelists), Kit Fisto - the best Jedi Master in Team 2 - is a Tier 7 Duelist. Terrific, but is damnation against Obi-Wan Kenobi, a Tier 8, and Anakin Skywalker, a Tier 9. Mind you, there are vast differences between the Tiers.

But, in case anyone isn’t alright with simply taking Gillard’s scale as is, let’s look at feats. We know that Obi-Wan Kenobi is a superior duelist to Clone Wars era Darth Maul, who himself put up an extremely impressive display against Darth Sidious. Now yes, Darth Sidious was holding back against Darth Maul, but so was he against the Jedi Masters. Darth Sidious casually one-shotted both Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn, despite both having their guards up. Kit Fisto fell in seconds - even with Mace Windu backing him up.

We know from the Son of Dathomir comics that Darth Maul is capable of at least briefly contending with Mace Windu, which shows him to be vastly superior to the afore-mentioned three Jedi Masters. Thus, if this was Obi-Wan Kenobi alone - the pinnacle master of defense, and a superior duelist to Darth Maul - I see absolutely no chance of Kit Fisto - even if aided by the other two - of breaking Kenobi’s guard.

Adding in Anakin Skywalker is just overkill. A heavily conflicted Anakin Skywalker fodderized Cin Drallig - who is at least a peer to the likes of Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn given Cin Drallig’s position as the Head of Temple Security. While physically choking Bene with one arm!

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ZacharyHampton

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@lord_tenebrous:

You seem to assume that General Grievous simply stagnated in skill during Year 1 of the war. General Grievous killed many Jedi during the war, and presumably had many sparring matches with Darth Tyranus. His skill constantly improved, culminating in his ability to stalemate Darth Maul in the Son of Dathomir series.

On the other hand, Kit Fisto would not engage in another lightsaber duel until he walked into the Chancellor’s office. I’m afraid Kit Fisto never had a chance to improve his skill.

Make no mistake - the General Grievous of the end of the Clone Wars would soundly defeat Kit Fisto.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#34  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@zacharyhampton:

You seem to assume that General Grievous simply stagnated in skill during Year 1 of the war. General Grievous killed many Jedi during the war, and presumably had many sparring matches with Darth Tyranus. His skill constantly improved, culminating in his ability to stalemate Darth Maul in the Son of Dathomir series.

Actually, Grievous decisively beat Maul on Zanbar despite holding back, and then held the upper hand over Maul later on a potent Dark Side nexus.

On the other hand, Kit Fisto would not engage in another lightsaber duel until he walked into the Chancellor’s office. I’m afraid Kit Fisto never had a chance to improve his skill.

Actually, Fisto fought with Asajj Ventress and Obi-Wan(in The Cestus Deception), and also repeatedly defeated multiple Sith during the war in combat:

"Kit Fisto was a renowned Nautolan Jedi Master, trained in the ways of the Force at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant... An unpredictable fighting style won him many victories over Sith opponents."

-- Star Wars Chrome Perspectives: Jedi vs Sith

And, all Jedi train constantly with their lightsabers from the day they can stand till the day they die:

"Jedi learned how to wield lightsabers in childhood in the Old Republic, and continued to practice with the weapons throughout their lives."

-- Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

"As soon as [Jedi] are old enough to stand, they are instructed in the proper handling of a lightsaber, and this instruction never truly ends until a Jedi has become one with the Force."

-- The Jedi Path

"Jedi train constantly with their lightsabers, whether alone on long field assignments or with colleagues at the Temple."

-- Attack of the Clones: Visual Dictionary

Fisto would be engaging in constant training, so yes, he would improve.

Make no mistake - the General Grievous of the end of the Clone Wars would soundly defeat Kit Fisto.

I disagree.

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ZacharyHampton

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@lord_tenebrous:

Ah, its been a while since I read the Son of Dathomir comics. Thank you for the clarification! If anything, that simply makes my point even stronger - given how Obi-Wan clearly managed to contend with Grievous in their final bout on Utapau.

As for Kit Fisto’s experience, doesn’t the Cestus Deception chronologically take place prior to the TCW Series? Of course, the meshing of the 2003 Clone Wars chronology and the TCW series has always proven...interesting. But that was my assumption.

As for Kit Fisto’s sparring? I have no doubt that Kit Fisto continuously honed his abilities. However, we have seen that engaging in real to-the-death lightsaber duels dramatically improves lightsaber combative abilities. For example, take a look at Obi-Wan Kenobi, the Jedi who engaged in by far the most lightsaber duels during the Clone Wars.

During the Battle of Geonosis, Obi-Wan was casually stomped by Darth Tyranus, and mocked on top of that. “Surely you can do better!” quipped the Sith Lord.

However, the war saw such an increase of skill for Obi-Wan that Obi-Wan contended pretty well with Darth Tyranus (with help from Anakin of course) on Obi-Diah (TCW 6x10), and Obi-Wan’s defense was found to be impregnable by Darth Tyranus during their duel on the Invisible Hand, who was forced to resort to the Force to dispatch of Kenobi.

Another example of the increase of constant lightsaber duels being Anakin Skywalker. In the span of three years, Anakin went from being humbled by Darth Tyranus in lightsaber combat on Geonosis to holding a definitive edge even whilst massively restraining himself and focusing on handling his emotions on the Invisible Hand. This was made possible by Anakin’s many duels with Asajj Ventress and Darth Tyranus in the interim.

In fact, the duelists of the Clone Wars with the most vast rates of increase (Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, Ahsoka Tano) were the ones who engaged in the most lightsaber duels.

Finally, of course, that brings us back to the Jedi Path’s quotes. Are we sure that by “Sith Opponents” the Jedi Path was not simply just speaking of the Confederacy’s droids - as they were run by a Sith Lord? Because Kit Fisto never engaged Tyranus in lightsaber combat (correct me if I’m wrong), and he certainly didn’t win any victory over Darth Sidious. And besides Kit Fisto’s one duel with Ventress in Cestus Deception, I do not recall Fisto engaging in lightsaber combat with any other Dark Force user until Sidious.

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MattyBoi

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#36 MattyBoi  Online

Team 1 stomps.

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noah_ouellette

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Anakin fights one and wins while kenobi holds his own against 2 like he did to Maul and Savage. Savage butchered Adi Galla and sure the masters here would fair better against him but not by much. Obi wan can either hold them off long enough for anakin to help after he finishes his duel off or obi wan can get a cheeky win on one of them, again like he did to Maul and Savage when he cut Savages arm off.

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The_Swaggot

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#38  Edited By The_Swaggot

@lord_tenebrous: Vader and Obi-Wan were evenly matched in terms of skill, true. But as you watch the fight it becomes very clear that Vader > Obi-Wan in terms of raw power.

Also, we have seen neither Plo Koon or Ki Adi Mundi do anything that sets them above Obi-Wan. Passing remarks from the novels are not comparable with actual feats.

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Kilius

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@lord_tenebrous:

Because as I'm sure you've read in other posts, it's pretty firmly established that Dooku was not at all strained in defending himself when they were attacking as a team.

I addressed this issue in the Dooku vs Vader thread.

Also since Canon feats are allowed we have Anakin straight stalemating Dooku in Dark Disciple which is further evidence Anakin will always maximize his advantages against Dooku when he's the lone assailant as appose to fighting at Kenobi's more measured pace and workrate.

And Dooku himself admitted an enraged AotC Anakin proved to be a powerful opponent:

"Enraged, the young Jedi had proved a powerful opponent, and Dooku suspected that he had grown only more powerful since Geonosis" - Labyrinth of Evil

And as Dooku proponents constantly point out to hype his Yoda performance, the contest had taken a lot out of him and Anakin and Kenobi themselves were far from fresh themselves. Though to be fair I seriously doubt he was truly "exhausted" - through rage he was able to call upon the Force and use it as a living conduit - "With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power" - which shows he still had plenty left in the tank. He wasn't truly a spent Force until after Yoda had thoroughly dominated him.

Reality is Dooku was a mega-prodigy who has been abnormally concentrating on his dueling skills for 8 decades,

Dooku's more technically refined and has a higher ring IQ I agree, I also think the same is true for Maul vs Anakin. Anakin mostly banks on pure talent. Thing is though Anakin's natural talent >>>>> anyone's except for Luke and is a head to head nightmare for almost anyone once he really digs deep.

was able to stalemate an all-out Yoda for nearly 40 seconds

Pretty much all the main sources have Yoda thoroughly outclassing Dooku. Surviving is not the same as stalemating. It's like saying Kit Fisto stalemated Sidious for a few seconds just because he wasn't instantly killed.

If you read a little further back in that chapter, Dooku notes that his relationship with Sidious is more of a partnership,

It's a facade much like Sidious's friendship ploy with RotJ Vader "rise my friend". Writers are a bit inconsistent about their open relationship this tbf but there are times when Sidious outright asserts his superiority to Dooku, such as when he choked and threatened Dooku in TCW and Yoda: Dark Rendezvous where he questions his dedication to the cause. And it's always been consistent that Dooku is afraid of displeasing him.

Plus it's stated in the Relaunched Fact Files that Sidious ordered Ventress' termination because he thought that if she grew any more powerful than she was then, it would be enough for Dooku to overthrow Sidious. And we know that a stronger Ventress was still vastly less powerful than Dooku, i.e. if Sidious is an 11, Dooku is a 10 and Ventress is a 2.

I honestly don't think the gaps are that big. It's a common story trope for minions to be dominated by the number one guy even though they don't perform that much worse against the heroes. For example, Maul dominated Savage but is mostly even with Kenobi who in turn never dominated Savage in the same quick fashion as Maul.

Ventress is basically the beta version of Dooku. Dooku does everything she does except better, the only advantage she has is a more nimble and dexterous body and youth. In addition to that he's the mentor and would naturally have the mental edge against his pupil.

Similarly to the Savage example, her fights with Anakin really aren't much worse than Dooku's.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#40  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@the_swaggot:

I agree that Vader is more powerful, but as shown by the movie, it was only a slim gap. Vader was genuinely struggling to hold off Obi-Wan's Force Push.

And, it's not the novel. On the Council, members are regarded as senior based on their connection to the Force:

"Although there were often some members of the Council considered to be senior to the others, these in fact had no more power, and all important decisions were always made with consultation of all 12 members. Jedi were regarded as senior only due to their connection to the Force and wisdom in interpreting its will."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files

Plo Koon is a senior member of the Council:

"A Kel Dor male from the planet Dorin, Plo Koon becomes a Jedi Master and a lifetime member of the Jedi High Council..."

-- Star Wars: Galactic Files

"At the time of the Battle of Naboo, the Council consisted of the following... Lifetime members: Mace Windu, Yoda, Oppo Rancisis, Plo Koon, Yarael Poof."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"PLO KOON: One of the most respected members of the Jedi Council."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact Files

"Plo Koon is a senior member of the Jedi Council."

-- Mysteries of the Jedi

And Ki-Adi Mundi is the most senior member of the Council besides Yoda and Mace Windu:

"When the upper tier of the Jedi Council -- himself, Yoda, and Mace Windu -- discussed a possible course of action to remove the Chancellor, Ki-Adi Mundi advised that the Jedi Order would have to take control of the Senate in the interim, to ensure a secure transition of power."

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"When the upper tier of the Jedi Council -- himself, Yoda and Mace Windu -- discussed a possible course of action to remove the Chancellor, Ki-Adi-Mundi advised that the Jedi order would have to take control of the Senate in the interim, to ensure a secure transition of power."

-- StarWars.com: Databank(old)

Unless you can cite statements that place Kenobi and Skywalker as senior members of the Council, Mundi > Plo > Obi-Wan ~ Vader.

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@zacharyhampton:

"Ah, its been a while since I read the Son of Dathomir comics. Thank you for the clarification! If anything, that simply makes my point even stronger - given how Obi-Wan clearly managed to contend with Grievous in their final bout on Utapau." 

Yes, but I believe that ROTS Obi-Wan would perform similarly against SOD Maul, because the latter is solidly past his prime at that point. Think about it -- TCW Maul has just spent 12 entire years in a state of insanity, not once wielding a lightsaber blade. He would be out-of-practice as a fighter, and would also have weakened in power during those years. To top it off, at the start of his exile, he would already be a lot less powerful than he was before this injuries. We know that Darth Vader's loss of a forearm, and both legs at the knee significantly reduced his potential and took a good chunk of power out of him: 

 "Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared..."

-- George Lucas 

"Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor." 

-- George Lucas 

Maul lost even more body mass -- more of his living form -- than Vader did. Sure, TCW Maul grew in power after being brought back onto the scene, but he wasn't around for even a year. TPM Maul underwent a massive power loss and then steadily decreased in power for 12 years; he's not going to fully recover in a matter of mere months. 

"As for Kit Fisto’s experience, doesn’t the Cestus Deception chronologically take place prior to the TCW Series? Of course, the meshing of the 2003 Clone Wars chronology and the TCW series has always proven...interesting. But that was my assumption." 

They really did a number on the timeline, but yes, you're right, and I concede on that point.

"As for Kit Fisto’s sparring? I have no doubt that Kit Fisto continuously honed his abilities. However, we have seen that engaging in real to-the-death lightsaber duels dramatically improves lightsaber combative abilities." 

I would argue otherwise. The controlled environment of private practice enables one to truly examine their skills and identity flaws, then work to correct those vulnerabilities, whereas in the rush of a life or death fight, you're battling to stay alive and have no true opportunity to do so.  

"For example, take a look at Obi-Wan Kenobi, the Jedi who engaged in by far the most lightsaber duels during the Clone Wars. During the Battle of Geonosis, Obi-Wan was casually stomped by Darth Tyranus, and mocked on top of that. 'Surely you can do better!' quipped the Sith Lord. However, the war saw such an increase of skill for Obi-Wan that Obi-Wan contended pretty well with Darth Tyranus (with help from Anakin of course) on Obi-Diah (TCW 6x10), and Obi-Wan’s defense was found to be impregnable by Darth Tyranus during their duel on the Invisible Hand, who was forced to resort to the Force to dispatch of Kenobi."

While I definitely see where you're coming from, I would have to disagree.  If you take a close look at the fight, Dooku was dominating Obi-Wan and Anakin on Oba Diah. At the beginning, Dooku literally traces a line with his blade from Kenobi's face to his chest, so close that it looks like he actually stabbed him:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/knwGUDGwZrW22AzH8

After backing out of the hallway, Dooku basically stonewalls the duo's attacks: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4JeAeSgXoMh5aNPV9

Then he dismisses Kenobi: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mUJQ3mnnwvGHVqrM9

Then he forces Anakin back solo:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GdFNteU2M6HhKwbt8

This is despite the fact that Makashi is a mainly defensive form: 

"Form II does not focus on attack, but rather economic movement in defensive parries."

-- StarWars.com: Fightsaber 

Then Kenobi recovers, but is immediately manhandled by Dooku, who slips past his guard and physically throws him to the ground. Dooku then breaks Anakin's guard and kicks him too:   

https://photos.app.goo.gl/w35uu5HEt1JoQ4356

Then Dooku continues to drive Anakin back while also dealing with Kenobi: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RSKVRNsc4i9bs5DW9

The only real negative for Dooku in this fight is that his opponents managed to dodge a fair amount of strikes(14 to 11). Reality is, Dooku was pretty solidly beating them on Oba Diah.

"Another example of the increase of constant lightsaber duels being Anakin Skywalker. In the span of three years, Anakin went from being humbled by Darth Tyranus in lightsaber combat on Geonosis to holding a definitive edge even whilst massively restraining himself and focusing on handling his emotions on the Invisible Hand. This was made possible by Anakin’s many duels with Asajj Ventress and Darth Tyranus in the interim."

Anakin never held a true edge though until the very end, when he became emotionally amplfied and when Dooku was exhausted. In actuality, the combined duo was unable to even give Dooku any sort of difficulty:

"This time, they were careful to work together, mindful of their defeat by Dooku on Geonosis. Even so, Dooku initially easily dealt with the combined assault from the Jedi, taunting Anakin as he did so. It was clear, as ever, why Dooku had been thought of as one of the best lightsaber combatants of his generation while still a Jedi." 

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File Relaunched 

"Count Dooku deserved his reputation as a master of the old style of lightsaber fencing. Even with both Anakin and Obi-Wan pressing him, he seemed at ease." 

-- Revenge of the Sith: Junior Novelization  

"He and Obi-Wan ignited their blue-bladed lightsabers and advanced on Dooku, who ignited his red-bladed weapon. The beams of their lightsabers hummed and clashed as they moved across the chamber. Dooku defended himself effortlessly." 

-- The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader 

There's no valid evidence that Anakin was truly restraining himself either. In fact, according to the movie script, even prior to Obi-Wan's initial dismissal, Anakin was already using his anger to become stronger: 

"ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry. ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

And before that, Dooku was already tired:

"As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired." 

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

To top it off, according to Lucas, Dooku wasn't allowed to kill Anakin: 

"Palpatine has told Dooku, 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to set up a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

-- George Lucas  

So a holding-back Dooku was easily handling the combined force of ROTS Anakin+Obi-Wan. Even setting aside those sources, the movie itself shows that Dooku was beating them pretty badly. It shows Dooku stonewalling their attack despite being bracketed by them:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KT5oKJRHkxvRc82C9

Making them get in each other's way and forcing them into a bladelock: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GG6MpGvaqtYHyPfm6

BFRing Anakin off-screen(he's still catching up next time we see him), then dismissing Kenobi and dodging Anakin's attack, making him overextend long enough for Dooku to climb some stairs, all in 5 seconds: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WwsS4cdDwX2PrRUr7

And Dooku was already tired at that point, while Anakin was getting stronger. Despite this, Dooku forced them into a bladelock, broke the bladelock, pierced their collective guard twice by grabbing Obi-Wan in a choke and kicking Skywalker away with barely a glance over his shoulder at him, despite being bracketed in between them: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/hFfGKdfbVYfAGsgU6 

Anakin did increase in skill/power, as typically all Force users do, but he was still decisively inferior to Dooku.  

"Finally, of course, that brings us back to the Jedi Path’s quotes. Are we sure that by 'Sith Opponents' the Jedi Path was not simply just speaking of the Confederacy’s droids - as they were run by a Sith Lord? Because Kit Fisto never engaged Tyranus in lightsaber combat (correct me if I’m wrong), and he certainly didn’t win any victory over Darth Sidious. And besides Kit Fisto’s one duel with Ventress in Cestus Deception, I do not recall Fisto engaging in lightsaber combat with any other Dark Force user until Sidious."

By Sith opponents it would be, quite simply, opponents who are Sith. It is true that no other bouts involving Fisto and Sith are mentioned in other lore, but every story has to start somewhere. The source I've listed states that Fisto has not just defeated one Sith, but multiple Sith, and repeatedly at that. Now obviously it's not Sidious, and it can't be Dooku given (setting aside the fact that in legends, official sources have stated that Dooku was never fully bested during the war) that Fisto wasn't even able to overcome Asajj Ventress, because of her significant Makashi form advantage; to say nothing of Dooku's. Which leaves us with Maul and Savage, which is internally consistent anyway. Fisto has outfought Grievous who in turn has outfought Maul -- at least the out of practice version. I don't believe that Fisto is capable of beating Maul in his prime.

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Kilius

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@lord_tenebrous:

If you take a close look at the fight, Dooku was dominating Obi-Wan and Anakin on Oba Diah.

They can't beat Dooku in a tactical battle. And Kenobi only used Ataru in that battle as well as in the movie version of RotS, the only source in which Dooku actually met Kenobi's defensive skills was in the novelization and in that source Dooku was straight stonewalled with the same exact efficiency as Yoda stonewalled him on Geonosis.

Anakin in TCW constantly fights with Kenobi's measured tactical mindset. He's not even as effectively aggressive as AotC Anakin or early Pre-TCW CW Anakin. In the few times, he does cut loose and goes back to his roots such as the season 4 Naboo fight he seriously pressures Dooku in head-to-head much as he did in AotC. It seems they tried to turn Anakin into a technician when he's at heart a brawler. By Dark Disciple, it seems that he's gone back to his roots and thus his stalemating of Dooku in that novel.

In actuality, the combined duo was unable to even give Dooku any sort of difficulty:

"This time, they were careful to work together, mindful of their defeat by Dooku on Geonosis. Even so, Dooku initially easily dealt with the combined assault from the Jedi, taunting Anakin as he did so. It was clear, as ever, why Dooku had been thought of as one of the best lightsaber combatants of his generation while still a Jedi."

-- The Official Star Wars Fact File Relaunched

"Count Dooku deserved his reputation as a master of the old style of lightsaber fencing. Even with both Anakin and Obi-Wan pressing him, he seemed at ease."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Junior Novelization

"Even so, Dooku initially easily dealt with the combined assault from the Jedi".

Dooku initially had the edge. You are omitting what happens next in the Junior novelization:

"Despite the Count’s confidence, the two Jedi forced him slowly backward." - Junior Novelization

There's no valid evidence that Anakin was truly restraining himself either. In fact, according to the movie script, even prior to Obi-Wan's initial dismissal, Anakin was already using his anger to become stronger:

Anakin actively restrains himself. The idea is born from the script, not the novelization:

"I sense great fear in you Skywalker. You have hate. You have anger. But you don't use them."

Yoda, Fisto, and Mace also similarly restrain themselves in fear of going over the edge. You can be super pissed without going off the deep end. Like I can be angry beyond belief with someone while conscious restrains my natural impulse to assault him. That's the difference between dark siders and light siders. Sith aren't afraid to cut loose with their emotions and that's what gives them an edge over their contemporaries, it's like comparing two evenly matched athletes but one is allowed to get away with performance-enhancing drugs. Anakin was always distraught over his crime on Tatooine and actively restrains himself so he doesn't go over the edge like that again.

And before that, Dooku was already tired:

As Anakin is far more effective when pressuring Dooku alone than when trying to outmaneuver him as a team, he would have reduced him to an even worse state even if Dooku had already been fresh. Heck AotC Anakin, who had just been blasted with lightning for the first time in his life and had just fought a grueling arena battle which exhausted Kenobi:

"Alone, he knew he had little chance of winning against Dooku. Not only was Dooku a master swordsman, he was rested and fresh, while Obi-Wan was already weary from the fight at the arena."

He's trying to distract me Grimly, Obi-Wan fought on. His exhaustion was starting to tell, his breath came is harsh gasps. He backed off hoping for a respite."

- AotC Junior Novel

Who was already in shity condition even before the arena battle:

"Blue-tongued bolts of lightning coursed through Obi-Wan Kenobi, gathering at his wrists and ankles before racing up and down his body in a journey surely designed to drive him to the edge of reason.… How long he’d been there, he could not say. Hours certainly. He was exhausted, yet wired, his mind wandering deplorably, unable to concentrate on one thing for more than a few moments at a time.

It was an effective way to secure a Jedi, he had to admit. He could focus neither mind nor body enough to harness the energy of the Force in order to affect an escape. The static electricity emanating from the containment field felt like millions of tiny nimgnats burrowing relentlessly into his flesh. It was excruciating and disturbingly efficient.

The Jedi swallowed hard, wincing at the stale, coppery taste of blood in his mouth. Dwelling on his discomfort would benefit neither himself nor the Force he had dedicated his life to serving. He sighed and tried to center his concentration. Again. Instead, all he could think about was clawing the skin from his bones.

..........

Right. Red walls. Check. Intense pain. Check. No aid from the Force. Check

..........

He wanted to rip the flesh from the back of his skull!

" - Precipice.

twenty other Jedi, which would include Luminara am energy efficient Soresu master

MACE WINDU, OBI-WAN, ANAKIN, PADME and an exhausted group of about TWENTY JEDI stand in the center of the arena surrounded by a ring of BATTLE DROIDS. The bloodied sand around them is strewn with the bodies of DEAD GEONOSIANS, SHATTERED DROIDS and JEDI.

and even Mace Windu - and this was still in the heat of battle when the adrenaline was still pumping.

"More Jedi went down under the sheer weight of the laser barrage. Less than half of them were still standing. “Limited choices,” Ki-Adi-Mundi said to the exhausted and bloody Mace Windu."

was able to seriously tax a relatively fresh Dooku(unless you seriously think an exhausted beyond belief AotC Kenobi was able to drain a fresh Dooku before Anakin had a go at it). RotS Anakin who is actually playing to his strengths and effectively using his aggression can easily exhaust and outhustle a fresh Dooku head-to-head and not give him any breathing room to set up and us his superior ring smarts and technical prowess.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@kilius:

"They can't beat Dooku in a tactical battle."

They can't beat Dooku in any lightsaber duel that's fair, because he's vastly more skilled than them combined. 

"And Kenobi only used Ataru in that battle as well as in the movie version of RotS,"

Irrelevent, because his Ataru is almost identical in skill to his Soresu. Kenobi is a well rounded fighter, if his Ataru was trash compared to his favoured form he wouldn't be stupid enough to constantly go on the offensive in his fights when it's not necessary. 

"the only source in which Dooku actually met Kenobi's defensive skills was in the novelization and in that source Dooku was straight stonewalled with the same exact efficiency as Yoda stonewalled him on Geonosis."

None of those things are canon in either continuity. If we're using non-canon content, Dooku in the ROTS script was supposed to force back Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously: 

"DOOKU lunges at the JEDI, and they fall back." 

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

And that's right before saying this:  

"DOOKU: (continuing) Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi... Too predictable. You'll have to do better." 

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script  

It's clear going by the movie and script Lucas intended it to be that Dooku was supposed to thrash them again, with Anakin gradually doing better as he delves more and more into his negative emotions, climaxing in the final portion wherein Anakin finally overcomes Dooku in an intense fight.   

"Anakin in TCW constantly fights with Kenobi's measured tactical mindset. He's not even as effectively aggressive as AotC Anakin or early Pre-TCW CW Anakin. In the few times, he does cut loose and goes back to his roots such as the season 4 Naboo fight he seriously pressures Dooku in head-to-head much as he did in AotC. It seems they tried to turn Anakin into a technician when he's at heart a brawler. By Dark Disciple, it seems that he's gone back to his roots and thus his stalemating of Dooku in that novel." 

I don't think the animators are really thinking about that when they choreograph his fights. Anakin is always aggressive, that's pretty much it, and sometimes he'll temporarily abandon his Jedi restraint and they do make a point of demonstrating when that happens. Anakin only does better then because he's amped, and it's arguable that Djem So is at its best when the user is unleashing their aggressive tendencies, much like with Juyo. Both forms are regarded as emotionally dangerous by the Jedi because of the emotional pull. 

Dark Disciple is just wack in terms of lore, rivaling Shatterpoint. The Council selecting Vos to kill Dooku like just anyone could was retarded. Mace Windu is turned into an angry, stupid, hot-headed jerk who is also a paranoid extremist. All the main characters, even unimportant ones, are selected for every mission, as though they are the only Jedi in existence. Vos is able to cloak his darkness from literally all the Jedi 24/7, surpassing even Sidious in this regard. Ventress has better senses than the entire Council combined. Bossk is implied to have soloed Dooku, at the very least Bossk + one or two other bounty hunters did.  The Council fully pardons Ventress of her countless murders, war crimes and other atrocities for bringing a single Jedi back to the Light. The Council almost decides to execute Vos for being a traitor, and he hasn't killed anyone. The Council pardons Vos after he brutally murders two Jedi and aids in killing two dozen clones. Kenobi believes that all the Jedi would have succumbed to Dooku under torture. The Council believes they would be incapable of successfully keeping Vos imprisoned. Upon capturing both Dooku AND Vos, Kenobi only sends two dozen clones and two obscure Knights to guard them, then actually goes and leaves to report to the Council instead of doing it while guarding them, and also takes Anakin with him for no reason instead of leaving him to guard too. Dooku and Vos conveniently kill all their clone escorts except Cody. Etc.

"Dooku initially had the edge. You are omitting what happens next in the Junior novelization:" 

You're mixing two sources. And, I didn't post it because it's completely irrelevent and doesn't contradict my point, which is at the start of the fight, when all three fighters were at their normal levels(bar Dooku, who was holding back), Dooku was trouncing them. Of course he only initially did so, because he ended up dead. Moreover, the JN excerpt you provided is also irrelevent because in the movie, Dooku was only ever "forced" back by the duo for a moment before he'd stop retreating and seize the upper hand.      

"Anakin actively restrains himself. The idea is born from the script, not the novelization:" 

Perhaps Anakin by that point had fallen back on his crumbling Jedi resolve. Prior to that, it's evident from his actions that he's angry, and it's confirmed by the script that he was already growing angry prior to Kenobi's first telekinetic dismissal, which was actively increasing his power.  

"Yoda, Fisto, and Mace also similarly restrain themselves in fear of going over the edge. You can be super pissed without going off the deep end. Like I can be angry beyond belief with someone while conscious restrains my natural impulse to assault him. That's the difference between dark siders and light siders. Sith aren't afraid to cut loose with their emotions and that's what gives them an edge over their contemporaries, it's like comparing two evenly matched athletes but one is allowed to get away with performance-enhancing drugs. Anakin was always distraught over his crime on Tatooine and actively restrains himself so he doesn't go over the edge like that again."

Anger in general fuels the dark side, and the script demonstrates that this was the case in ROTS. Just like all those times in TCW, Anakin's anger was making him stronger. He may not have been in a blind, bloodlusted rage like he was against A'sharad Hett and the Tuskens(which imo isn't regular Sith emotion, it's circumstantial power like Maul losing Savage), but he was still gaining strength through passion. 

"As Anakin is far more effective when pressuring Dooku alone than when trying to outmaneuver him as a team, he would have reduced him to an even worse state even if Dooku had already been fresh. Heck AotC Anakin, who had just been blasted with lightning for the first time in his life and had just fought a grueling arena battle which exhausted Kenobi:"  

Anakin is always going to be far more formidable when paired with another Jedi. Especially Obi-Wan. It's logic -- the combined skills of two duelists is a much greater challenge than either member of the team individually. That's why Kenobi wanted Anakin with him when he faced Dooku. Plus, even if you were right, this still falls apart because all my quotes apply to the early stages of their duel, wherein Anakin and Obi-Wan were not fighting side by side the whole time. Notably, here: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TmhM61wmZ6Etzoco8

Obi-Wan almost immediately slips to the side and moves to bracket Dooku while Anakin maintains a steady offensive. They're fighting tactically here, essentially trapping Dooku so he's now forced to deal with their individual skills coming at him from both sides. But despite this, Dooku effortlessly holds them off. They try this again on the staircase but once more fail miserably.  

"was able to seriously tax a relatively fresh Dooku(unless you seriously think an exhausted beyond belief AotC Kenobi was able to drain a fresh Dooku before Anakin had a go at it). RotS Anakin who is actually playing to his strengths and effectively using his aggression can easily exhaust and outhustle a fresh Dooku head-to-head and not give him any breathing room to set up and us his superior ring smarts and technical prowess." 

Being able to physically exhaust someone in a lightsaber fight is not an indication of parity. It's just the result of physical exertion. Sidious was tiring himself out against Maul and Savage yet we know they were not even competing with him. 

If Dooku is actually going all-out, the fact that he tires quickly is irrelevent because he'll end Anakin and Obi-Wan in moments, as would Yoda, Mace, or Sidious. They're Council tier fighters, within the level of people like Grievous, Maul, Koth, etc.

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cupofreality

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Duo fodderizes.

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Kilius

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#45  Edited By Kilius

@lord_tenebrous:

They can't beat Dooku in any lightsaber duel that's fair, because he's vastly more skilled than them combined.

Dooku's vastly more skilled at blade manipulation and positioning. Kenobi is vastly more skilled in weathering the storm and Anakin is a vastly more skilled pressure fighter.

Irrelevant, because his Ataru is almost identical in skill to his Soresu.

According to what source is Kenobi's skills "almost identical" in his skill with Soresu? Soresu is his main bread in butter, his forte is in weathering the storm and coming on with a precisely timed counteroffensive when the enemy is vulnerable or overcommits.

Kenobi is a well rounded fighter,

He's primarily a defensive fighter. He is not a pressure fighter.

if his Ataru was trash compared to his favored form he wouldn't be stupid enough to constantly go on the offensive in his fights when it's not necessary.

How is Kenobi going to pressure Dooku with Soresu in an offensive effort? Zannah tried that against an unarmed Bane and it didn't work out so well. The key shortcoming in Soresu is that it relies on the opposition to come to you, it lacks initiative, unlike the similarly economical Makashi, so it's next to useless in a team battle, especially in the role as the aggressors. If Kenobi opened up with a defensive wall Dooku could just ignore him and focus on Anakin, Kenobi would then be forced to switch to Ataru or Shi-Sho anyways if he wants to mount any type of offensive.

None of those things are canon in either continuity.

Who cares about continuity semantics. We're debating hypothetical matchups from a feat and performance standpoint. All the material I listed was reviewed and approved by LFL and Lucas himself.

Now if a feat from higher canon contradicts lower canon from a performance standpoint, such as the TPM novel portion of the fight where Maul sustains wounds from Jinn and Kenobi, where clearly in the film Maul isn't wounded, then I can see grounds for dismissing Kenobi's stonewalling feat, such as if the movie clearly showed Kenobi taking a defensive position and Dooku dismantled his guard. But as it stands the only information we have in a hypothetical Dooku vs Kenobi match up where Kenobi pits his Soresu skills against Dooku's Makashi the official LFL/Lucas approved novelization

Also, you are being a bit hypocritical, given your casual dismissal of feats from Dark Disciple despite it being official continuity. You seem to switch from a rigid non-flexible fundamentalist implementation of canon policy and dismiss the more lore-friendly novel feats on the basis of semantics related to choreography, to a more liberal application of intent and lore consistency on the drop of a hat.

If we're using non-canon content, Dooku in the ROTS script was supposed to force back Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously:

"DOOKU lunges at the JEDI, and they fall back."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

Not by pressing Kenobi's guard. Dooku lunges at them and they fall back. It doesn't say they clashed blades, it doesn't even say he reengaged them. Nor does it say Dooku "forced the Jedi back".

And that's right before saying this:

"DOOKU: (continuing) Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi... Too predictable. You'll have to do better."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

Because he was using his more predictable Ataru - a form Dooku knows like the back of his hand do to his training of Jinn and tutorship under Yoda - and Shi-Cho, the most predicable lightsaber form of them all.

It's clear going by the movie and script Lucas intended it to be that Dooku was supposed to thrash them again,

Then why is Dooku "getting tired" why did Lucas place a special emphasis on Anakin getting stronger while Dooku and Kenobi got weaker? If Anakin was supposed to be inferior he should be the one depicted with signs of distress and fatigue, with Dooku barely breaking a sweat. Why did Lucas depict Anakin as "driving the attack on Dooku"? Why did Lucas describe the initial battle as "a great swordfight"?

with Anakin gradually doing better as he delves more and more into his negative emotions, climaxing in the final portion wherein Anakin finally overcomes Dooku in an intense fight.

Anakin is already using his emotions regularly even as of Labyrinth of Evil. Having emotions isn't the same as using the dark side, it's a grey area but Kenobi never has a serious issue with Anakin using emotions. He walks a fine line until Kenobi is takin out of the picture and Anakin starts using them with bad intentions.

Intense doesn't imply a close struggle. A lot of one-sided fights are intense for the sheer sensationalism but not at all competitive. I can name a dozen. Sidious vs the Zabracks is described as "epic" but it was definitely not close as per the same source. Sirak Vs Bane(both matches) were intense and brutal but completely one-sided. Similarly, a lot of close fights aren't intense - Ben vs Vader is slow and dull but fairly even, with a tentative Vader holding a marginal edge.

Dark Disciple is just wack in terms of lore, rivaling Shatterpoint.

It doesn't change the fact it happened. Besides the novel based on TCW scripts. The important thing is that the Anakin feat is consistent with his other Dooku performances when he engages him alone.

And, I didn't post it because it's completely irrelevent and doesn't contradict my point, which is at the start of the fight, when all three fighters were at their normal levels(bar Dooku, who was holding back),

...

If Dooku is actually going all-out, the fact that he tires quickly is irrelevent because he'll end Anakin and Obi-Wan in moments,

Dooku wasn't toying in any source except the RotS novel which doesn't seem to exist in your worldview. Sidious explicitly ordered Dooku to kill Kenobi and defeat Anakin and above all make it look real. He was by all implication going all out offensively in the attempt to defeat them. Makashi is a form that emphasis light taps and thrusts to enable greater control and precision, so fighting to maim and not kill wouldn't hinder Dooku's ability to compete effectively in any significant way. Sparring Jedi are conditioned to pull back at the last second when they've penetrated the guard:

“Master Halcyon,” Anakin said when they stepped back, “in a fight, one seldom has time to invent new maneuvers. The tried-and-true movements are usually the most effective.” He reached out with his lightsaber to touch Halcyon’s, then spun the tip of the blade in an unorthodox backhand that would have cut through Halcyon’s left shoulder had he not stopped short—and had Halcyon failed to fall back out of the way in time.

“Very good, Padawan.” Halcyon nodded with approval. “That was so close I’m not sure whether or not it counts as a touch. - Jedi Trial

Even a head or chest shot can easily be stopped at the point of contact so it wouldn't be lethal.

Dooku was only ever "forced" back by the duo for a moment before he'd stop retreating and seize the upper hand.

And then Anakin seized the upper hand and so on and so forth. The battle was back and forth. It wasn't one-sided on either front until Anakin dug deep and used his true power for the first time.

Perhaps Anakin by that point had fallen back on his crumbling Jedi resolve. Prior to that, it's evident from his actions that he's angry, and it's confirmed by the script that he was already growing angry prior to Kenobi's first telekinetic dismissal, which was actively increasing his power.

That's passive anger. He's angry and it gives him strength, focus, and resolve, but that doesn't mean he's using it with bad intentions like a true dark sider.

Anakin is always going to be far more formidable when paired with another Jedi.

Anakin is most formidable when he's up close and hammering his opponent. The bracketing ploys only play into Dooku's strengths.

Especially Obi-Wan. It's logic

Logically a defensive fighter is going to be next to useless in an offensive team effort. Anakin has to do all the work and Kenobi just becomes a liability when Dooku puts him in his way and gets the weaker Jedi into trouble.

That's why Kenobi wanted Anakin with him when he faced Dooku.

And it didn't work. But Anakin is more successful as the lone assailant. It's not a coincidence that every time Anakin faces Dooku alone he always gains more success yet every time Kenobi reenters the picture the tide turns in Dooku's favor.

Plus, even if you were right, this still falls apart because all my quotes apply to the early stages of their duel, wherein Anakin and Obi-Wan were not fighting side by side the whole time. Notably, here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TmhM61wmZ6Etzoco8

Obi-Wan almost immediately slips to the side and moves to bracket Dooku while Anakin maintains a steady offensive.

I can't access your photoapps but I think I know which sequence you are referring too. Dooku only parries two of Anakin's strikes at that point and Anakin had already stopped attacking when Dooku parried Kenobi's individual strikes.

They're fighting tactically here,

And that's Dooku's arena. Dooku is a superior technical fighter to either of them and his mastery of positioning makes it impossible for them to bracket him effectively, instead of getting in each other way in the process. Kenobi's strengths lie in weathering the storm and coming back with a counterattack when his enemy over commits or is vulnerable. Attacking Dooku offensively and trying to outmaneuver him wouldn't bring those best qualities out of him. And Anakin's strengths lie in close quarters combat with a special emphasis on relentless aggression and never giving Dooku a chance to set up and force Dooku to expend all his energy towards defending himself.

essentially trapping Dooku so he's now forced to deal with their individual skills coming at him from both sides. But despite this, Dooku effortlessly holds them off.

It's a whopping four parries, two per each Jedi and never at the same time.

They try this again on the staircase but once more fail miserably.

Only as a team. Again as soon as Anakin reengages Dooku alone, is the elder Jedi who is forced on to the retreat.

Being able to physically exhaust someone in a lightsaber fight is not an indication of parity. It's just the result of physical exertion. Sidious was tiring himself out against Maul and Savage yet we know they were not even competing with him.

It's an indication the other fighter made you work hard. If it was an easy fight he wouldn't be tired at all. Especially not after 15 secs. Ever hear the phrase "I didn't even break a sweat"? Besides Dooku's style is supposed to be economical and energy-efficient as Soresu is.

Sidious was hardly exhausted he just strained himself for a moment kicking Savage's big ass frame across the length of the room. He didn't look particularly tired after that.

as would Yoda, Mace, or Sidious. They're Council tier fighters, within the level of people like Grievous,

Dooku isn't on Yoda or Sidious's level. Yoda decisively outclassed Dooku on Geonosis as per both novelizations, the comic, and the script and Sidious is clearly the alpha in their relationship. He's openly threatened Dooku in Y:DR and TCW. As a counterexample, Plagueis despite being the acknowledged leader of the relationship treated Palpatine like a partner and actually was careful not to needlessly agitate him:

"Palpatine nodded. “The sniveling toady knows about the blockade. I suspect that he’s on the loose, and out for profit.” Damask’s eyes flashed yellow. “This is what happens when beings are promoted beyond their level of competence!” Palpatine tensed in anger. “Not you, ” Damask said quickly." - Darth Plagueis

This implies they are extremely close in power and they both knew it. Unlike Dooku and Sidious where they both knew if it came to a confrontation it would be no contest, hence Sidious openly threatening Dooku and questioning his loyalty.

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G_Race

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@lord_tenebrous: It's comments like yours that make me shake my head at the world.. Arguing for arguing sake.. Like someone said above there is nobody out there (other than you and your echo chamber mates) who truly believe that Anakin/Kenobi dont take this.. Mace's statement is subjective to circumstance and availability you know that.. Also, CIS/PIS and story arch are the main reasons for Kenobi/Skywalker's success and troubles when dealing with opponents.. Its what makes for good story telling.

Just StHAAP already.. *honestly*

-Everyone.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#47  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@g_race:

It's comments like yours that make me shake my head at the world.. Arguing for arguing sake..

Thank you for coming out to tell me in your infinite wisdom not to argue.

Like someone said above there is nobody out there who truly believe that Anakin/Kenobi dont take this..

Argumentum ad populum. I really don't care what the majority thinks, I decide my own views based on actual material.

(other than you and your echo chamber mates)

Who on earth agrees with anything I've said? The only echo chamber was that of the back-patting scorners who offered nothing but condescension and snide comments whenever they viewed an opinion they did not like. Luckily, they've moved to another forum, but a select few have remained to preserve their legacy.

Mace's statement is subjective to circumstance and availability you know that..

Those weren't Mace's statements. This was Mace's statement:

"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Senior Novelization

I didn't use his subjective statement. I posted two objective OOU sources which quite explicitly state that the B-team are Mace's finest warriors:

"Anakin loyally delivered news of this discovery to Windu, and Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors to arrest the Chancellor."

-- Insider #100

"Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors -- Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto -- to arrest the Chancellor."

-- StarWars.com: Databank(old)

And no, this wasn't because of availability and circumstance. It doesn't say "Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors available," it just says they were his finest warriors. Period. This just solidifies with accolades what was already confirmed by feats.

Also, CIS/PIS and story arch are the main reasons for Kenobi/Skywalker's success and troubles when dealing with opponents.. Its what makes for good story telling.

You can't just dismiss showings you don't like as PIS. It doesn't work that way. The fights I listed were not illogical, invalid or inconsistent. Reality is, the facts just don't align with your views, and they never have.

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G_Race

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#48  Edited By G_Race

@lord_tenebrous: Not going to bother.. The online lawyer types are always just looking for an audience.. Have a great day!

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camilopezo

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Team 1 stomps.

There is no way that a group of fodder that did not last even 5 seconds against the emperor are rivals for two named characters.

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#50  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@camilopezo:

How are they fodder? Because they lost to Palpatine? That's just because Palpatine is just that good. Someone brought this question up on set when they were reviewing the scene -- that guy thought what you thought, that the Jedi were fodder because they died so quickly. What was Lucas' response? "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."

Anakin and Obi-Wan wouldn't have done any better.