Anakin Skywalker and Mace Windu vs Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda

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the_wspanialy

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Anakin Skywalker and Mace Windu

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Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda

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Rules:

  • RotS versions of all combatants (unless stated otherwise)
  • In character
  • Standard equipment
  • No prep time
  • Basic knowledge
  • No prep time
  • Perfect cooperation for both teams
  • Victory by death, KO, or incapacitation
  • The battle(s) takes place on the Geonosis arena

Rounds:

  1. Sabers and h2h only
  2. Force only
  3. All out
  4. KF Vader and Vapaad amped Windu. Kenobi gets the high ground.

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AnonymousJedi

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Team 2, imo, but its close

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Jmarshmallow

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1. Team 1

2. Team 2

3. Team 2

4. Team 2

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Dawn_of_Ages

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Since Anakin is specified as being KF Vader in the last round, are we using Mustafar or Invisible Hand Anakin in the first three rounds?

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Slayedigneel

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Anakin and mace take this.

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Greysentinel365

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R1: Either way

R2: Team 2

R3: Obi-Wan can hold either off long enough for Yoda to beat the other.

R4: Team 1

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Erkan12

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#8  Edited By Erkan12

Yoda (if he isn't holding back like he did against Dooku) is the MVP. Team 2 should win without Mace's republic amp. If Mace has his amp, then team 1 comfortably wins.

But in character Yoda usually holds back against his former Jedi apprentices, as we've seen from his Dooku fight, if he holds back then team 1 wins even without Mace's amp.

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xolthol

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Team 2 every round except the last one where team 1 win

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Gaoron

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Team 2 all rounds

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Bayman007

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Team 2

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DeutschKurzhaar

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Good battle, I just can’t see Yoda loosing. Close battle but obi wan could hold off anakin and I honestly think he could beat him under the right scenario, while Yoda eventually beats mace, Yoda knows exactly how mace fights he taught him, I don’t think vaapad will work on yoda like it does against others

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Erkan12

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#14  Edited By Erkan12

@deutschkurzhaar said:

Good battle, I just can’t see Yoda loosing. Close battle but obi wan could hold off anakin and I honestly think he could beat him under the right scenario, while Yoda eventually beats mace, Yoda knows exactly how mace fights he taught him, I don’t think vaapad will work on yoda like it does against others

Yoda didn't teach him Vaapad, Mace created it.

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dark-sith123

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#15  Edited By dark-sith123

Team 2 have a shot at winning the first three rounds. They get wiped off the face of the earth in Round 4.

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ArkhamAsylum3

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Team 2 win all rounds except round 4.

High ground Kenobi is too much.

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AmethystGravity

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I'm not sure how well Obi-wan can hold off a foe in the force only round, but in the other rounds, I'd say Yoda and Obi-wan can take it. Knightfall Anakin might be a bit much, though.

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DeutschKurzhaar

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@erkan12: that’s not at all what I said, mace created vaapad yes.. good job. Besides vaapad yoda taught him everything he knows, and true yoda doesn’t use vaapad, it’s really not in his character, yoda actually had trouble allowing him to use it because it draws so close to the dark side. I’m saying that yoda definitely knew how to counter it, obviously he’s seen mace use vaapad before and as a fail safe most likely found a way to counter it. In case he fell to the dark side, just like Dooku did. Yoda is definitely wise and powerful enough to do so. And either way I believe mace would lose in a saber fight

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TheOneWhoKnocks

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Team 2 all rounds. High ground Obiwan solos round 4 ;)

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Kilius

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#20  Edited By Kilius

Round 1.

Team 2. Even in his most powerful incarnation, Yoda should still be a little bit better than Mace. Anakin beats Kenobi in a long grueling fight, that will be cut short when Yoda finishes Mace.

Round 2.

Team 2. Anakin only has a minor edge on Kenobi, but Yoda is the MVP. Not a stomp but they win assuredly.

Round 3.

Still, team 2 for reasons above

I'm not doing the last round.

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Kilius

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@erkan12:

Yoda (if he isn't holding back like he did against Dooku) is the MVP. Team 2 should win without Mace's republic amp. If Mace has his amp, then team 1 comfortably wins.

Nah, even with the amp Yoda should win. If we go by Gillard's ruling, which I think is applicable to the movies unless contradicted by Lucas and onscreen feats, Mace is 8 bordering 9, whereas Yoda is straight up 9. Since there is no indication in the movie that Mace was amped, we should assume the 8 bordering on 9 applies to his Sidious duel as well. The part with Lucas stating "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emporer" doesn't mean Mace and Yoda are perfect equals, just that they can both compete and potentially beat the Emporer. Being rated lower than a perfect 9 doesn't' mean Mace can't still beat Sidious in lightsaber combat, a slight inferior can still certainly pull off a win, just like Kenobi tier 8, beat Anakin tier 9.

But in character Yoda usually holds back against his former Jedi apprentices, as we've seen from his Dooku fight, if he holds back then team 1 wins even without Mace's amp.

He doesn't hold back when he goes for the kill, however. If he believed they were both a menace to the republic and they couldn't be swayed to be turned back he won't hold back at all.

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WollfMyth209

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Yoda's the MVP, but Anakin shouldn't be too far behind(if at all) and Obi's a weak link, tho I suppose he can contend.

Not sure, tbh.

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Hope_w

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#23  Edited By Hope_w

Yoda solos. If Mace is drawing on Anakins Anger while he duels Obi wan than it's much closer otherwise the notion that Anakin is anywhere near Yoda is logically unfounded.

As a matter of fact team 2 stomps. Anakin is a proven weak link and only serves as an amp for mace.

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Erkan12

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#24  Edited By Erkan12

@kilius said:

@erkan12:

Yoda (if he isn't holding back like he did against Dooku) is the MVP. Team 2 should win without Mace's republic amp. If Mace has his amp, then team 1 comfortably wins.

Nah, even with the amp Yoda should win. If we go by Gillard's ruling, which I think is applicable to the movies unless contradicted by Lucas and onscreen feats, Mace is 8 bordering 9, whereas Yoda is straight up 9. Since there is no indication in the movie that Mace was amped, we should assume the 8 bordering on 9 applies to his Sidious duel as well. The part with Lucas stating "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emporer" doesn't mean Mace and Yoda are perfect equals, just that they can both compete and potentially beat the Emporer. Being rated lower than a perfect 9 doesn't' mean Mace can't still beat Sidious in lightsaber combat, a slight inferior can still certainly pull off a win, just like Kenobi tier 8, beat Anakin tier 9.

Bordering to 9 is more than enough to challenge a tier 9. Remember that a tier 7 (Kit Fisto) was able to deflect multiple blows from a tier 9 fighter (Sidious), it means that every tier 8 alone is something they need to deal with. And someone who is bordering to tier 9? That's some serious shit.

I am assuming that he was amped, due to losing his Jedi friends and not even mention how the Emperor deceived the Jedi order by playing the role of the Chancellor of the Republic, Mace made that personal, of course we can't exactly prove that by using the movie feats alone, but for me even in the movie, it's obvious that Mace was amped due to Mace's beliefs in the Republic and how the Chancellor fooled them.

@kilius said:

But in character Yoda usually holds back against his former Jedi apprentices, as we've seen from his Dooku fight, if he holds back then team 1 wins even without Mace's amp.

He doesn't hold back when he goes for the kill, however. If he believed they were both a menace to the republic and they couldn't be swayed to be turned back he won't hold back at all.

I don't see why he would act differently as he previously did against his former apprentice Dooku.

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There is a huge difference between the two fights.

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Kilius

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@hope_w:

Actually, I think the whole Mace draws on the dark side of his opponents is a bit of a misconception.

ILS had an excellent post on that, though unfortunately, it seems comicvine ate it.

It's hyperbole. He draws on his own anger and lets if fuel him similar to the Sith, only he doesn't let the dark side touch the core of his being. He's accepting Sidious's anger in the sense that he's letting it fuel his battle fury.

The superconducting loop is a metaphor. No one can fight literally forever without the possibility of fatigue; even in the same Novel Sidious becomes seriously fatigued after fighting Yoda:

"The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod’s rail."~ RotS SN

Mace vs KF Vader is debatable. It would be an awesome fight that imo should have been in the story, but if Mace wins dark side feeding won't be a factor.

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Laurus

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Team 2 all rounds.

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KeenCraft

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#27  Edited By KeenCraft

@kilius: My deduction would be that he draws in some of the excess energy emitted by his opponent's natural Aura signature while simultaneously feeding on his own emotions; A mixture of both of your analyses.

He clearly doesn't draw upon opponent's full power, otherwise he would destroy any darksider he came across.

While I respect your deduction, it feels like a bit of a contradiction once you said

"He's accepting Sidious's anger in the sense that he's letting it fuel his battle fury."

Made up example numbers for expedience:

If Mace is 6 and Sidious is 10

Mace draws +3 from himself while receiving an excess of +1 from Sidious.

Anakin's fear and Shatterpoint does the rest.

I would posit that most of his amp comes from his own disdain towards Sidious's actions of causing the deaths of so many of his comrades, in addition to his devotion to stopping the ultimate evil. But he still gets some of Sidious's excess rage and then Anakin's fear.

Of course, if he met Darth Sidious by chance, the amp would not be nearly as strong considering he wouldn't know the Chancellor was betraying them all. Unless Sidious allowed him to know out of arrogance of course.

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KeenCraft

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With that said, I find the excuse of Yoda's character to be "holding back" to be a tad bit ridiculous to use to rationalize Yoda's team losing. Yoda wouldn't hold back insofar as placing Kenobi's life in jeopardy. When he recognizes that either Anakin or Windu are willing to harm or kill them both, he isn't going to hesitate in ending the ordeal by KO if possible or kill if necessary. It won't be a detriment to his skill level at least.

Team 2 every round but 4 can be a tossup. And I'm not sure if Kenobi survives unless he can use the arena to his advantage like on Mustafar, which I can't see happening on Geonosis.

Yoda can finish either, but I'm uncertain of whether Obi wan can survive long enough for Yoda not to get double teamed, even playing hyper defensively.

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Kilius

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@keencraft:

While I respect your deduction, it feels like a bit of a contradiction once you said

"He's accepting Sidious's anger in the sense that he's letting it fuel his battle fury."

The wording does seem a bit contradictory I'll admit.

What I'm trying to get at is that he's allowing Sidious's fury to internally fuel his own emotions. Rather than he's drawing on Sidious's dark side aura and externally amping him. It's all Mace's own power is what I'm getting at, though multiple factors could indeed be increasing his abilities to draw upon it.

Other than that your analysis is about as valid as mine. It's mostly guesswork and interpretive.

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Fetts

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Team Two should win almost every round. Round One is hard to say. Since they're in character, Yoda is likely to hold back, making the round last longer than it should. Even still, I can't imagine Yoda holding back to the point that he'd slip up and leave Windu an opening. I'd say between the two of them, Yoda would take it in a dragged out win.

EU Anakin, as far as I understand it, is generally more powerful than Obi-Wan. Much of the reason why the Duel on Mustafar lasted as long as it did was because Anakin wasn't in a collected headspace, dueling more recklessly than he usually would. Without that, I do believe Anakin is a fair margin above Obi-Wan in Force Power and dueling skill (though I'm hesitant to say on that front - I know Obi-Wan was the greatest master of Soresu to ever live).

The only round Team One may take a majority in is the last round. The amp Mace Windu had against Palpatine was significant, though Palpatine was delaying the conclusion of that fight. Strictly speaking from the perspective of the movies, Yoda did perform less admirably against Palpatine than the movies. It's kinda hard to say which is more impressive: Yoda lasting as long as he did against a serious Palpatine or Mace Windu successfully obtaining the upper hand against a Palpatine was orchestrating the fight... Part of me does want to say/vaguely recall that despite Palpatine's deception, Mace Windu did manage to challenge Palpatine. Not even Anakin could perceive them, and Anakin is a Jedi who can perceive sub-light speeds.

I want to say Yoda didn't perform as well, but of course, all of this is open to correction. Admittedly, I don't research on Jedi/Sith hierarchy and dueling forms as much as I should.

Also, if memory serves, Knightfall Anakin was Anakin at his prime. He should be able to take Obi-Wan after a decent fight.

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Hope_w

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Can't tag on mobile for some reason so please don't be offended. However Vaapad is directly stated as a reflection of the emperor several times:

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

Rots Novel
; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon:Rots Novel
Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its sourceRots Novel

How isn't drawing power from someone's emotions not drawing power from them? Regardless if it's a chain reaction or not Mace still is gaining power via the fighting style, he can reflect Anakins Anger just as he reflected his fear in the novel. Yoda still threeshots Mace though.

To say Mace didn't feed on the Dark side is blatant cherrypicking of the novel when it's directly described from Anakins perspective:

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.

Rots Novel

Mace accepted the darkness than guided it back out through his blade via Vaapad. Nothing more nothing less, Mace can turn any darksiders power upon themselves; it just has a clearly established limit. In-fact two sources say Yoda reflected sidious' lightning as well.

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redheathen

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  1. Sabers and h2h only
  2. Force only
  3. All out
  4. KF Vader and Vapaad amped Windu. Kenobi gets the high ground.

I agree with what dawn of ages asked above, @the_wspanialy. Which ROTS Anakin is this? Is this pre- or post-Invisible Hand?

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the_wspanialy

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redheathen

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#34  Edited By redheathen

@the_wspanialy said:

@dawn_of_ages: @redheathen: Post Invisable Hand ^^

Thank you for the clarification.

ROUND 1: Sabers and h2h only

Team One

ROUND 2: Force only

I'm really not sure who would win this. My immediate thought is Yoda would carry the fight, but the more I think about post-IH Anakin, the more I think about Dooku saying his abilities, everything about him, is all a joke compared to Anakin. Then again, Yoda has 800+ years of experience. ....But Anakin's raw power is far greater, and if he can work synergistically with Windu's shatterpoint ability, then I can see Team One winning.

ROUND 3: All out

My answer is the same as for round 2.

ROUND 4: KF Vader and Vapaad amped Windu. Kenobi gets the high ground..

I am not sure if KF Vader can fall to High Ground Kenobi because the circumstances on Mustafar were specifically surrounding those two characters at that precise moment. The high ground won't be as detrimental to Vader if he is not in the state he was in on Mustafar. If someone argues against this, then my question is what is the point in separating KFV from Mustafar Vader?

We know that Kenobi was capable of defeating someone greater than himself who had the high ground, so if the circumstances are right (no PIS), the high ground doesn't matter-especially considering the power of KFV. So, eliminating plot device, it is Vader > Kenobi.

Team One wins.

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Kilius

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#35  Edited By Kilius

@hope_w:

As I said a lot of this is a metaphor and not meant to be taken literally. That's Stover's writing style throughout the entirety of the RotS novel. It's the same hyperbole he uses when he says Dooku is dead the moment Anakin literally wills it. Or that Anakin was the strongest and fastest of the Jedi, which would put him above Yoda in strength and speed.

When Stover wrote about Vaapad in Shatterpoint, there isn't any mention of dark side leeching when he used it against the powerful dark sider Kar Vastar; in fact:

He lost that fight despite using Vaapad.

All Vaapad does is turns the users own inner darkness into a weapon of the light. External factors like discovering the truth of Palpatine, seeing his Jedi comrades die, and accepting Sidious's fury, may, however, increase his own level of darkness. But to be sure it is all his own power coming from within.

Most of the text can more realistically be likened to Mace being amped by his own emotions throughout the fight.

Italics are mine bold is yours. I'm also going to add more text from the novel to clear up the context:

Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness.

This affirms with what I said: Vaapad channels ones own inner darkness.

To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side. Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master. This was Vaapad's ultimate test.

This is basically what Sith do: Use their emotions to fuel their power. The distinction here is that Mace isn't allowing that rush to consume him.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.

Nothing in that text you underlined confirms Mace was leeching of Palpatine's power. The Force itself is leeching off the dark side aura as it's doing to Mace; it appears to be creating a small dark side nexus of sorts. This is what Anakin senses.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

Again the use of metaphor here. What is literally happening here is Palpatine attacking Mace with full power of the dark side, Mace is blocking it and fighting back with unrestrained but totally controlled darkness in kind.

The metaphorical blaster blots are Palpatine's attacks and the redirection is meant to describe Mace responding with a fury of his own as he deflects the dark lord's attacks.

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But—

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

There is a good reason to believe the superconducting loop isn't literal.

First, as I already noted Sidious was fatigued after his battle with Yoda, so the possibility of Sidious not becoming fatigued in his duel against Mace is debunked in Stover's own novel. A clear indication the passage is meant to be metaphoric of their mutual exchange of aggression.

Second, it's been established that the flesh can't sustain the raw power of the dark side; here's an example from the Bane Trilogy:

"Age was beginning to take its toll on Bane, but it was nothing compared with the toll already wrought upon his body by decades of drawing upon the dark side of the Force. He couldn't help but smile at the grim irony: through the dark side he had access to near-infinite power, but it was power that came with a terrible cost. Flesh and bone lacked the strength to withstand the unfathomable energy unleashed by the Force. The unquenchable fire of the dark side was consuming him, devouring him bit by bit. After decades of focusing and channeling its power, his body was beginning to break down." ~ Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

That's just one of countless examples. If their duel continued to play out as it did, with Sidious continuously sustaining himself with the dark side, his body would have eventually withered away to a shriveled husk.

Vaapad is directly stated as a reflection of the emperor several times:

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

He's letting the dark lord's rage bolster his own fury. It's an internal increase in power - the amp is coming from Mace's own increased emotional potency.

; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon:Rots Novel

That's Shatterpoint, not Vaapad. It's a different ability entirely.

Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source Rots Novel

This ability isn't limited to Vaapad. As you said Yoda did the same thing - reflect lightning back to its source, and he's not a Vaapad user and there are other non-Vaapad users who have replicated this.

This is all, of course, speculative on my part. I don't have access to Stover's mind, but I think it's a common theme throughout the novel that many passages are not meant to be taken literally. That and taken literally it's inconsistent with the lore, including Stovers own writing as I already outlined.

@i_like_swords:

You made a post similar to this some months ago, though it appears to have been deleted, as had been happening to a lot of prolific users at the time. Would you say this is accurate to what you wrote at the time?

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Greysentinel365

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My answers don't change.

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depinhom

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Team 2 should definitely win, but it would still be a good fight.

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killbilly

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#38  Edited By killbilly  Moderator

Yoda and Obi Wan all but R4.

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redheathen

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I don’t think vaapad will work on yoda like it does against others

I agree because it shouldn't. However, it seems that some people are of the mind that Mace/Vaapad can use a third party's dark side abilities to amp Mace to fight a light side opponent:

  1. I'd like a source to back this up,
  2. BUT if this is true, then Team One should win all rounds considering ROTS Anakin and KFV both used the dark side. Now I'm curious if the dark side user's strength in Force determines how much of an amp Mace gets.

For my own answer I gave above, I used Mace's Shatterpoint ability to circumvent the need of the dark side for him to use Vaapad, but if Mace can get this boost from Anakin, then Mace's use of Vaapad and his Shatterpoint ability should be plenty for the superior raw power of ROTS Anakin and KFV if they are working well together, similar to how well Skywalker and Kenobi worked together on Tythe:

Initially, it had cheered him to observe that Skywalker and Kenobi had finally learned to fight together; to see how powerful they had become in partnership. Complementing each other's strengths, compensating for each other's weaknesses. Kenobi making full use of his inherent discretion to balance young Skywalker's inattentive rowdiness. He could have watched them until the light faded on fair Tythe. And he wished that General Grievous could have been there to witness the display for himself.

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marvelfan1992

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Questio, is Yoda regarded as superior to KF Vader and "vaapad amped" Windu that fought sidious? (I don't mean a 2on1 fight, just comparing him to them individually)

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Kilius

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#41  Edited By Kilius

@marvelfan1992:

If you go by Nick Gillard's ruling, who uses a system started by Lucas then yeah Yoda should be considered superior to both:

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Yoda and Anakin are both nine but he's also stated that Anakin isn't mentally a nine, hence why Kenobi was still able to match him, so Yoda should be above KF Vader.

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it's a huge jump from one level to another. It's not just about a style of fighting, it's mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he's gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn't gone beyond him mentally."

Gillard isn't the be all end it authority, but aside from him, there isn't any official ruling on the power disparity between the three.

Lucas stated you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emporer:

"Only Yoda or Mace can compete with the Emperor."

And immediately afterward he follows with:

"If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

Of course, he could have been referring to potential but it isn't specified. So going by Lucas, the only person with more authority than Gillard, it's completely vague as to who's more powerful than who among the three, so I'd go with Gillard's ruling:

Yoda > Mace<=>KF Vader

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marvelfan1992

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@kilius: Thanks. How do the SW viners here usually regard Yoda? Do they generally hold him above the other 2 as well?

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#43  Edited By Kilius

@marvelfan1992:

From my experience, most Viners on this site regard Yoda as superior to both. Gillard's word, by and large, is considered law here and even I who used to advocate not relying on his word am starting to warm up to it in regards to reliability.

KF Vader vs Mace is more debatable because both are hard to place due to inconsistent showings from both.

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#44  Edited By marvelfan1992

@kilius: thanks! :) Btw why is Gillard's statements given such weight here? Isn't he just a stunt coordinator?

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Kilius

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@marvelfan1992:

He is but he also worked closely with Lucas and help write the fights, so most SW viners do consider him a reliable source. Most of his rulings do make sense and match up with the characters abilities from the movies.

The system he uses is also co-developed with Lucas which gives his statements some legitimacy:

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

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#48  Edited By redheathen

@kilius said:

@marvelfan1992:

If you go by Nick Gillard's ruling, who uses a system started by Lucas then yeah Yoda should be considered superior to both:

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Yoda and Anakin are both nine but he's also stated that Anakin isn't mentally a nine, hence why Kenobi was still able to match him, so Yoda should be above KF Vader.

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it's a huge jump from one level to another. It's not just about a style of fighting, it's mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he's gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn't gone beyond him mentally."

Gillard isn't the be all end it authority, but aside from him, there isn't any official ruling on the power disparity between the three.

Lucas stated you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emporer:

"Only Yoda or Mace can compete with the Emperor."

And immediately afterward he follows with:

"If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

Of course, he could have been referring to potential but it isn't specified. So going by Lucas, the only person with more authority than Gillard, it's completely vague as to who's more powerful than who among the three, so I'd go with Gillard's ruling:

Yoda > Mace<=>KF Vader

Gillard said that ROTS Anakin > Yoda and Sidious.

Anakin?s style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he?s unbeatable. He?s far more dangerous than anybody in the universe.

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@kilius said:

@marvelfan1992:

He is but he also worked closely with Lucas and help write the fights, so most SW viners do consider him a reliable source. Most of his rulings do make sense and match up with the characters abilities from the movies.

The system he uses is also co-developed with Lucas which gives his statements some legitimacy:

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

It is Lucas' tiering system, which was stated in Homing Beacon #126:

George Lucas works on a system of levels.

Gillard used that as a gauge to choreograph the fights.

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#50  Edited By KeenCraft

@kilius said:

@keencraft:

While I respect your deduction, it feels like a bit of a contradiction once you said

"He's accepting Sidious's anger in the sense that he's letting it fuel his battle fury."

The wording does seem a bit contradictory I'll admit.

What I'm trying to get at is that he's allowing Sidious's fury to internally fuel his own emotions. Rather than he's drawing on Sidious's dark side aura and externally amping him. It's all Mace's own power is what I'm getting at, though multiple factors could indeed be increasing his abilities to draw upon it.

Other than that your analysis is about as valid as mine. It's mostly guesswork and interpretive.

Ah, now I see what you're getting at. Regardless, even if he did draw upon the darkness of those surrounding him, there is nothing to suggest he can get it from third party sources not involved in a direct confrontation: like Anakin. And even then, Windu would receive but a meager boost at the very most from Skywalker.

And Yoda still beats Mace with some difficulty. Realistically, there isn't even a way for Mace's amp to persevere without Yoda being dark.