Anakin and Luke Skywalker vs Jacen and Jaina Solo

Father and Son

The Siblings

Rules:

• RotS Anakin (Jedi), DE Luke, Jacen as Darth Caedus, FotJ Jaina
• In character
• Standard equipment
• Basic knowledge
• No prep time
• Perfect cooperation for both teams
• Victory by death, KO, or incapacitation
• The battle(s) takes place on the Geonosis aren

Rounds:

1. Sabers and h2h only.
2. All out.

Callouts:

Sorry if you're not interested.

Team 1

Team numero uno.

This a joke?

Team 2.

actually closer than it looks, but Jaina is a weak link, Caedus can hold his own against either opponent though.

Anakin and Luke.

This is a clear cut team 1.

10/10

So you have A Vader level Jedi (DE luke) and the chosen one vs the worst, lame, and most boring sith lord ever and a nooby sister of his? Skywalker's stomp.

Oh and the Skywalkers stomp.

Doesn't Caedus scale above Vader, who scales above Anakin? Also, I don't know where to rank DE Luke.

Anyway, if I had to pick, I'd say round 1 goes to the Solos and round 2 goes to the Skywalkers, but I'm still a biased Legacy fan, so hey!

I don't Know man I liked cadeus until he became inconsistent and a Vader clone trying to save his family but going about it in a very stupid way. Plus Vitisid I know you are reading the Legacy of the force series and you don't want spoilers so lets just say Cadeus does something I really hate. (SPOILER ALERT!!!) YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! He Kills Mara Jade and I hate how he goes about it.

Team 1; Jaina is the weakest

D.E Luke =/> Caedus > Anakin > Jaina.

Team 1 wins.

Team 1.

Are you serious? D.E. Luke >> Vader >>> Cadeus.

I know about Lukes quote of Cadeus but Vader is a ROTS YODA and SIDIOUS level combatant, Cadeus is not.

@in-sidiousvader: Base D.E Luke is around Vader level. We know this as Palps tells Luke that if he turned he could become as strong as Vader. Meaning he wasn't there yet.

Caedus lasting a time against GM Luke (circumstances not-withstanding) is more than enough to place him around that level.

OK fair enough so D.E. Luke < Vader I am fine with that. But IIRC Luke basically states he is not trying to kill Cadeus and merely deflecting his strikes rather than countering. I don't think holding your own against someone who does not want to kill you is a good feat

@in-sidiousvader: No. Luke was trying to kill him. I suggest reading through this breakdown.

I read it but here is the thing, Cadeus was being beaten down and massacred. He throws a spiky object at Luke and Luke is poisoned. The only thing here in this fight that was impressive was Cadeus being able to kick Luke and break his knee. There was also the immense pain he suffered but that is inconsistent with the rest of his showings.

So I may have lowballed Cadeus a bit in my initial assessment but I stand firm that Cadeus did not hold his own against Luke. In the beginning of the fight it was the Zonakin vs Dooku fight all over again. Then with the help of poisoning Luke he defends a bit better while still being massacred. Then if not for Cadeus breaking Luke's leg he would have died and even after that he is almost killed shortly. This to me was much like ROTS Sidious vs SC maul. Sure Maul "holds his own" but it is against a joking Sidious. Sure Cadeus "holds his own" against NJO Luke but Luke is poisoned barely able to breath and still kicking the crap out of Cadeus.

Am I wrong? All my points seem to line up with the fights description. Personally going back to a non-factual assessment I think Cadeus is massively overrated.

ROTS Anakin was a Jedi when he first opened himself up to the dark side, but I'm assuming the OP is for just before he did that? Either way, it doesn't matter with DE Luke on the team. Team One wins both rounds.

Ok this is stupid, DE Luke>Vader. It's downright silly to think Vader's mental condition hinder himself so much, in his fight against Luke, that even after many years of growth luke still wouldn't be his level, not mentioning the fact Luke's potential is>>Suited vader.

Could you make a case Rich. You have genuinely told me that Valkorion beats Vader without breaking a sweat I need a little convincing.

Caedus is stated to be above Vader.

Jaina is stated to be above Kyp as an overall combatant which indicates she's at least close to him in power.

DE Luke is stated to be able to one day be what Vader was or even surpass him by Sidious meaning he hadn't by that point.

Anakin is confirmed to be below ANH Vader.

Pretty simple.

Damn, DE Luke? Really?

Yeah, this one goes to team one for sure.

I never got that Caedus quote. I know it exists, but some people don't seem to accept it, since it appears to be "subjective" or something.

Anyway, team one definitely wins. Anakin is below Vader in power, sure, but he absolutely isn't below Vader as a combatant, and Luke is Vader level. Might not be above him, but is on his range.

Jaina is a weak link, Caedus might be a strong link in power. Team one still takes it.

Agreed Cadeus is at best TPM Sheev tier in terms of dueling. Luke is far more than both of these combatants. Anakin also hammers Jaina till she breaks.

@greysentinel365: You do realize that the whole point of that write up by Swords was to show that Caedus couldn't actually contend all that well with Luke? That in Caedus's favor were circumstantual injuries affecting Luke like a broken knee and bloodstream full of poison, as well as Vong biotech restraining him early in the fight saving Caedus's life. And Caedus still lost. Not to mention Luke pretty significantly humiliating Caedus by telekinetically pinning him to a chair against his will earlier in the series. All of this shows is that Luke far exceeds Caedus.

I personally don't see from the evidence you're citing that Caedus is Vader level.

@in-sidiousvader:

Would you like it? I can give it to you.

I know it and have seen it. However, people are divided on the quote- some buy into it, some do not.

I disagree that Anakin is as good of a duelist. I think he is just more dedicated to battering your defenses not that he is a superior Duelist I would say at best they are on par.

Fightsaber states that ANH Vader is a mere shadow of his former self. This shouldn't apply to power, given Vader's been stated as more powerful than Jedi Anakin, but as a fighter, Anakin should still be head and shoulders above Vader.

Team one

Fightsaber is overruled by later Legends sources.

Not to mention it never comments on Vader's ability as a lightsaber combatant. It only says that he's diminished in some capacity. Potential and agility are two likely candidates.

@greysentinel365:

Which ones? I have no knowledge of any later quotes proclaiming Vader > Anakin in dueling.

Anyway, the fact that Vader struggled with Ben Kenobi- who, although a very good duelist is not in his prime- should be sufficient to say he's not on the level of a Yoda/Sidious-level tier nine who battered Dooku and killed battlemaster Cin Drallig in three swings.

@dark-sith123: Ben Kenobi is incredibly inconsistent in whether is more or less powerful. He has quotes for both. You also have to consider that Vader was being overly cautious with Kenobi due to his experience of Mustafar. Also when you factor in what happened to people like Dooku when fighting a less powerful iteration of Vader, Obi-Wan's performance in the Death Star makes perfect sense.

As for Vader.

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.

-- Jedi Battles

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

--Insider 62

Ben was still clutching his lightsaber when he reached an access tunnel that led back to Docking Bay 327. As he entered the tunnel, he sighted a tall, shadowy form at the tunnel's other the end. Even if Ben had never seen Darth Vader's cybernetic incarnation via a HoloNet broadcast on Tatooine, he still would have sensed the power of his former apprentice, now concealed within black armor.r

-- The Life And Legend Of Obi-Wan Kenobi

“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”

-- A New Hope

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

-- Return Of The Jedi

Along with these.

Credit to Zapan's respect thread

In addition to greater experience after already being Yoda/Sids level in skill. You have to consider the simple logic that more power = better precog and augmentation. Therefore. Better dueling.

The recent wank and support for Vader is most pleasing.

@dawn_of_ages said:

The recent wank and support for Vader is most pleasing.

I don't know how or where but I think we were separated at birth Dawn :)

@greysentinel365:

Ben Kenobi is incredibly inconsistent in whether is more or less powerful.

He could be more powerful, but his skills with a lightsaber have clearly waned.

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

That one confirms Vader is more powerful, and experience doesn't necessarily equate to being a better duelist.

This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.

-- Jedi Battles

Once again, stronger probably refers to power. Which I have agreed on, Vader is more powerful than Anakin.

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

--Insider 62

Refers to ESB, where Vader is "far more formidable" than he had been in ANH. Refers to power as well.

Ben was still clutching his lightsaber when he reached an access tunnel that led back to Docking Bay 327. As he entered the tunnel, he sighted a tall, shadowy form at the tunnel's other the end. Even if Ben had never seen Darth Vader's cybernetic incarnation via a HoloNet broadcast on Tatooine, he still would have sensed the power of his former apprentice, now concealed within black armor.

-- The Life And Legend Of Obi-Wan Kenobi

Once again talking about power, and if anything this only confirms Vader was as powerful as when he was Anakin.

“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”

-- A New Hope

This arguably proves Vader grew in power, not skill, and power "maturing" isn't even conclusive evidence of his power growing, never mind his skill.

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

-- Return Of The Jedi

Talking about his power, and RotJ Vader > ESB Vader > ANH Vader.

In addition to greater experience after already being Yoda/Sids level in skill. You have to consider the simple logic that more power = better precog and augmentation. Therefore. Better dueling.

The augmentation thing kinda falls apart when you consider Vader's suit limitations. Sure, he's not the slowpoke he appears to be in the movies, but one so big and so heavy just can't move as fast as an entirely organic, athletic Anakin.

In addition to Anakin's superior feats, we also have George Lucas stating that the prime of lightsaber dueling was in the PT, labeling Vader as an "old cyborg".

Vader's more powerful, but Anakin's got better feats, hype (dueling wise), and speed, so I just can't see how Vader is a better duelist than Anakin, especially as of New Hope, where he's far from hitting his peak.

Where was it ever confirmed that Cadeus was a match for GM Luke. If you refer to the fight he had in Legacy of the Force Fury Cadeus practically opened his mouth placed it on the Curb and let Luke put his boot on his head. Cadeus didn't contend with Luke like you say he got curbstomped by a poisoned barely, able to breath, and broken legged Luke. Now if the author or someone said that Cadeus was a match for LOTF Luke then their opinion directly contradicts the fight that was written

@greysentinel365: Keep in mind, however, Vader is confirmed to be better as a Force user than as a duelist, though in fairness that quote doesn't specify to what extent. Therefore, just because he is stronger in the Force, it doesn't mean he can be compared to Anakin in dueling. Not as of ANH, at least.

@in-sidiousvader:

Apparently there is one single statement saying Caedus was Luke's match. However, that single statement is irrelevant compared to Luke telekinetically dominating Caedus with casual ease, as well as having him dead to rights in seconds in their "fight". Not to mention Luke was hindered. Caedus contending with Luke has been debunked a long time ago anyway.

Be careful when debating Caedus with Richard, though, since in the ranking duelists thread- IIRC- he placed Caedus above Sidious as a duelist. He might just not be a bastion of objectivity.

I thought better of him. Oh how the Viners have fallen

He is a maul fan but he is definitely a very reasonable person