Amalgam Tournament R1: TheTrueBarryAllen vs Emperor Thanos-

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An Amalgam Tournament of Street Level Proportions™

TheTrueBarryAllen

  • Parent 1: 616 Spider-Man
  • Parent 2: Bloodshot
  • Perk: "The Futrue is Now, Old Man!" (Morals Off/Same Gender Parents)

VS

Emperor Thanos -

  • Parent 1: Coco (First Arc Only)
  • Parent 2: Alita (Pre-Imagions)
  • Perk: "Surrounded by Fear and Dead Men" (Morals Off/Back up of 3 Legends Stormtroopers)

Setting

Start 60ft away from each other on Ground Floor, Within Line of Sight
Start 60ft away from each other on Ground Floor, Within Line of Sight

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SolidCenturion

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Lovely, I spoke with ET and he said he'd get his opener up first since I know very little about both of his characters.

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T4V

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emperorthanos-

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#7 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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#8 emperorthanos-  Moderator

Alita + Coco

No Caption Provided

Alita

So most of my characters stats will come from Alita. For one Alita was able to react to the grind cutters and move at mach 0.94 speeds to evade them. As the second scan states thats actually less than a quarter of the speed of the grind cutters that have been stated to move at mach 4 speeds. So that's what Alita's reaction speed would need to be here.

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Her combat and movement speed improves with later bodies. In the following scans she dodges the super sonic water jets than manages to surprass them in speed when she overcomes the water jet shield by moving her damscus blade even faster. Cutting the shield and her opponent. For reference water jets eject water at around mach 3 if not a tad bit lower. This servers as both combat and reaction speed feat for Alita.

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Alita is also fairly strong and skilled. In the following scans she takes on multiple experience bounty hunters. Display a mix skill and strength to knock them all around. At the end she was able to kick one with enough force to send him and all the others flying out of the bar and up the stairs.(Scans in reverse)

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But her main form of attacking people is through piercing with the use of her Damascus blade. The Damascus blade special blade that allowed Alita to match and break diamond edged saw chains. The blade was later turned in to a staff

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Alita also has great senses. She can sense molecules moving in the, as well as fluctuations in electrical flow within a range of 15 meters.

No Caption Provided

Alita is also quite the marksman especially due to her gun, she can be deadly at range. She has a high powered pistol and rifle that shoots powerful bullets that can pierce bullet proof robots. So you are dealing with an extremely deadly gun that my character can fire at you.

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Coco

While Alita is here to decide the body of my character, what Coco brings is the powers. Now I'm sure you are getting ready for some poison stuff but first I will touch up on one of his other abilities. Coco has great eye sight. He can see one a wider range of the electromagnetic spectrum to the point that the ability allows him to tell someones near future and make a dark cave seem bright.

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Now on to his poison. Coco has been injected with over 500 anti bodies, trace amounts of poison from animals, insects and sometimes even plants. All these anti bodies have created a whole new poison inside of him that is so deadly that creatures can sense it and simply avoid eating him.

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Coco can manipulate this poison inside him to devastating effect. For example his poison dressing technique allows him to shoot the poison he has outside of him through his hands. He does so against a bunch of bats that die the instant they get into contact with the poison.

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Strategy

Well nothing too complicated in terms of strat. The clone troopers are here to server as a distraction. My Amaglam will go into cqc while the clone troopers shoot from afar. The amalgam needs to really only touch you with the poison and its all over. And given how fast Alita is, that should not be a problem at all.

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#9 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Barry's Amalgam: Bloodshot & Spider-Man

No Caption Provided

Character Introductions

My amalgam is made up of Bloodshot and 616 Spider-Man; I've also got the morals off perk (similar to you) which should make this combination quite effective, since Spider-Man is usually held back by morals.

Bloodshot

A super soldier who has been enhanced by billions of nanites that've been injected into his body. These nanites grant a variety of unique abilities such as enhanced physical attributes, enhanced sensory functions, invisibility, shape-shifting, telepathic immunity, technopathy, and a highly effective regenerative healing factor.

His nanites can become fatigued if they're pushed to their limits without any rest or protein intake, but that's only been shown if he's been fighting for days without a break. The nanites were why I choose Bloodshot for my amalgam.

Spider-Man

One of Marvel's most classic and well known characters; Peter Parker is the hero known as Spider-Man. Having been bit by a spider he developed enhanced physical attributes, can crawl on walls, and has a precognitive danger sense that he calls his Spider Sense. Peter is also a highly gifted engineer/inventor and has built a variety of gadgets that he utilizes as Spider-Man the most iconic (and practical) being his web shooters.

Physical Attributes

The bulk of my physical prowess will come from the fact that I have Spider-Man's stats. The nanites were able to enhance Bloodshot (a normal human) to superhuman levels (putting him around Captain America's tier) but we haven't seen them in someone who was already at Spider-Man's level, so out of the two, Spider-Man is my stronger body, even with the nanites.

Strength

The strength limitation for this tournament listed Spider-Man as one of it's examples, so it's fair to say that for all intents and purposes I'm as strong as this tournament will allow without breaking the limitations, which should put me on par or above your own strength.

STRIKING POWER

It's very worth noting that traditionally Spider-Man holds back when fighting due to his morals -- this is demonstrated when Doctor Octopus (in Parker's body) punches Scorpions jaw clean-off. Thankfully, due to my perks, this strength is no longer held back by any morals whatsoever, so each strike will be a potentially killing blow.

Notable examples of my strength include KO'ing Tombstone with a single punch, doing the same to Mister Negative, and again to Scorpion, who had previously survived a seven mile fall back to Earth without any pain or damage taken.

I very much believe that I possess the strength required to harm you, but will wait to see some durability claims on your part.

Durability

With Spider-Man's physicals (and Bloodshot's healing factor) I am also near the durability limit of the tournament; having survived many point blank or direct explosions with it being a minor hindrance.

BLUNT FORCE

I should be able to tank any of your unarmed strikes due to the fact that Spider-Man took a hit in the face from Hercules that sent him through some walls -- and since he mentioned a fight with Juggernaut, here he is taking multiple hits from Juggernaut without giving up.

Of course you're showcasing attacks with blades, bullets, and poison, so proving I can withstand those sorts of attacks are vital.

PIERCING (BLADES & BULLETS)

Honestly -- not a great physical resistance to such attacks; bullets and blades should cut me; however, anything sort of a decapitation I should be able to quickly bounce back from.

This is where the Bloodshot Nanites get their first chance to shine -- if you shoot me or cut me, I'll rapidly recover. Here Bloodshot is shot through the back of the head, resulting in a massive wound that heals instantly. He's also been blown up by a direct tank hit (looks at limits) and was able to regenerate his entire body in mere moments.

So I should be able to recover from most, if not all physical damage you inflict on me.

CHEMICALS/TOXINS/POISONS

Of course given your strategy you're going for a poison insta-kill, so do I have any poison resistance?

Well -- without the nanties Spider-Man himself has some decent durability against such attacks; he was able to survive being drugged which should've resulted in heart failure but his metabolism fought it off and fought off venom that was supposed to have paralyzed him.

But Coco's poison is likely more potent than that so that's where the Nanites come in. As mentioned in an earlier scan Bloodshot's nanites are capable of repairing any wound no matter how severe. They can purge toxins from his body and can filter the effects of gas so his body remains unaffected.

The filtration effects of these Nanites should work to isolate and destroy any poison damage you try to inflict on me. If Coco's unique body chemistry has allowed him to survive due to it being able to create artificial anti-bodies then the nanties should do the same, especially since they're able to adapt in real time.

Speed

In the Speed category we should be similar. With travel speed Spider-Man was able to cross 2 miles in 5 seconds which puts him just below the Mach 2 travel speed limit and he's got microsecond perception for reaction -- sadly I can't calculate how close to the limit that puts me, but with the Spider-Sense advantage my reaction time should be just as good, if not better due to precog.

I can post a variety of bullet dodging feats (similar to this one, which calcs out to approx Mach 3.5) but I think we both agree that our speed should be similar, if you don't then I'll discuss the point further.

My 'X' Factors

Having discussed the physical aspect of the debate it's time to get into my 'X' factors -- the elements of my amalgam that I believe help me win a majority over your amalgamation.

These are the following:

  • Spider-Sense
  • Web Shooters
  • Nanites

Spider-Sense

With the Spider-Sense I should be able to predict your attacks (and the attacks of your 3 Storm Troopers) with relative ease. It allows me to create a 360 degree snap-shot around myself so that even if I can't "see" your attack I can respond to it, and if for some reason you argue that I couldn't dodge an attack, I should at least be able to maneuver myself so that it isn't a kill-shot, which will give the Nanites time to quickly repair the damage.

Web-Shooters

The web-shooters may not be as seemingly lethal as your Damascus Blade or high-powered pistol, they're still incredibly useful and if used correctly, could change the match in my favor.

It's strength allows a rather small amount of it to incapacitate Luke Cage which should prove that it could do the same to you or your Storm Troopers, at least for long enough that I can get a KO or kill. It can also be used to stop a blitz like Spider-Man did to Blur.

The webbing can also be used to disarm you of your weaponry or to reduce it's effectiveness.

Nanites

I chose Bloodshot specifically for the nanites since they grant a variety of additional abilities. I've already demonstrated the potency of it's healing factor, but it's got some other tricks -- such as it's ghost mode in which Bloodshot is made effectively invisible as well as preventing others from tracking him via his nanites.

They also grant some insane sensory abilities so I should be able to know where you are at all times (especially in combination with my Spider-Sense) which aids me in dodging your assaults.

Lastly, the technopathy that the nanites give me is a huge asset -- if it has any sort of electronic in it, Bloodshot can manipulate it.

Counters & Strategy

A bit of a tl;dr for my basic counters since I did respond to some of your assets while describing my own traits.

  • Strength/Durability wise I believe I'm superior based on what we've both showed, you may have more feats to change this, which I look forward to.
  • Our speed should be similar, nobody is going to blitz anybody IMHO.
  • I believe Spider-Sense is superior to Coco's future sight based on practical combat application.
  • I believe my regenerative capabilities should withstand the poison based off what you've shown.
  • I believe that my Nanites, Spider-Sense, and Webbing give me a variety of ways to counter you effectively.

So, as for my actual strategy:

We both start 60 feet apart in an environment that Spider-Man is highly used to fighting in, also suiting my mobility well. Given that I'd see your team and realize I'm outnumbered (not knowing the capabilities of any of your team members) the smart thing to do would be to use the Ghost Mode for the nanites; making me functionally invisible from the majority of your team.

The Storm Troopers should be functionally useless given my technopathy can affect their weaponry (to my knowledge) similar in a way that TK can mess with gear -- they could also be completely incapacitated by a quick web-blast if for some reason they manage to be problematic, but it's doubtful they'll be much of a point in this debate.

With my mobility & spider-sense I'll work on dodging your amalgam's attacks and will return fire with webbing to try and keep the distance, if it comes to CQC then I'll respond with my own strength which given the durability showings you've provided thus far should be plenty enough to get a KO or Kill.

I'm sure you've got more up your sleeve, but these are my initial considerations. I look forward to your next post @emperorthanos-

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#12  Edited By emperorthanos-  Moderator

@thetruebarryallen: Also calling my character Colita

Counters

Colita's durability

It's very worth noting that traditionally Spider-Man holds back when fighting due to his morals -- this is demonstrated when Doctor Octopus (in Parker's body) punches Scorpions jaw clean-off. Thankfully, due to my perks, this strength is no longer held back by any morals whatsoever, so each strike will be a potentially killing blow.

Notable examples of my strength include KO'ing Tombstone with a single punch, doing the same to Mister Negative, and again to Scorpion, who had previously survived a seven mile fall back to Earth without any pain or damage taken.

Alita has enough durability feats to not be too bothered by this to be honest. For one she survived a large fall into a scrap yard on to a giant pillar whilst previously getting a concussion and was perfectly fine despite it all. (Scans in reverse)

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She also tanked being caught in a massive flood that over turned a truck. SHe was hit directly by it but was able to pull herself out and someone else. Seemingly fine after the whole ordeal. (Scans in reverse)

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Your Durability

There isn't much to say here. Regen kind of negates a lot of stuff. But Coco's poison has brought down a being with regen like the Devil Serpent that was able to instantly regenerate from its limbs being cut off. Coco was able to make a less lethal poison to take it out so the serpent could still be eaten. Which of course he will not do here.

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Colita's Speed

In the Speed category we should be similar. With travel speed Spider-Man was able to cross 2 miles in 5 seconds which puts him just below the Mach 2 travel speed limit and he's got microsecond perception for reaction -- sadly I can't calculate how close to the limit that puts me, but with the Spider-Sense advantage my reaction time should be just as good, if not better due to precog.

I can post a variety of bullet dodging feats (similar to this one, which calcs out to approx Mach 3.5) but I think we both agree that our speed should be similar, if you don't then I'll discuss the point further.

Don't see how the speed is similar. Alita reacted to mach 4 attacks which is faster than really anything you have shown here. But the bigger gap is in combat speed given Alita moved faster than mach 3 jets. Nothing you have shown comes to that level of combat speed. Spiderman can react to that but tagging Alita is going to be another issue and it also mean Alita's speed allows Colita to attack faster.

Web shooters

The web-shooters may not be as seemingly lethal as your Damascus Blade or high-powered pistol, they're still incredibly useful and if used correctly, could change the match in my favor.

It's strength allows a rather small amount of it to incapacitate Luke Cage which should prove that it could do the same to you or your Storm Troopers, at least for long enough that I can get a KO or kill. It can also be used to stop a blitz like Spider-Man did to Blur.

The webbing can also be used to disarm you of your weaponry or to reduce it's effectiveness.

Impressive but Colita should be able to just cut herself out of this. She has plasma jets that can cut through 40 millimeter skin and reach 15,000 degrees Celsius. (Scans in reverse)

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Assuming she gets tagged given her combat speed feats. I know he tags Blur but I'm not familiar with his reaction speed

Nanites

Well -- without the nanties Spider-Man himself has some decent durability against such attacks; he was able to survive being drugged which should've resulted in heart failure but his metabolism fought it off and fought off venom that was supposed to have paralyzed him.

But Coco's poison is likely more potent than that so that's where the Nanites come in. As mentioned in an earlier scan Bloodshot's nanites are capable of repairing any wound no matter how severe. They can purge toxins from his body and can filter the effects of gas so his body remains unaffected.

Coco's poison is certainly more deadly given it is essentially a combination of the over 500 antibodies that have been injected into him.

Coco's posion is also a lot more deadlier than Alcohol and works a lot quicker. Coco's poison was killing those bats right on contact. Thats how deadly his poison is, given it has the properties of over 500 different poisons.

I chose Bloodshot specifically for the nanites since they grant a variety of additional abilities. I've already demonstrated the potency of it's healing factor, but it's got some other tricks -- such as it's ghost mode in which Bloodshot is made effectively invisible as well as preventing others from tracking him via his nanites.

They also grant some insane sensory abilities so I should be able to know where you are at all times (especially in combination with my Spider-Sense) which aids me in dodging your assaults.

Lastly, the technopathy that the nanites give me is a huge asset -- if it has any sort of electronic in it, Bloodshot can manipulate it.

Invisibility shouldn't be an issue. Alita can sense anything 15 meters of her based of electrical flow fluctuations. So she should be able to sense anyone invisible.

No Caption Provided

Overall

With Alita's senses, invisibility is not an issue. Coco's poison is also way too deadly compared to what Spider-man or Bloodshot have dealt with. And speed is on my side, my amalgam will close in and again simply needs to tag you. In CQC too, Colita doesn't have do direct hand to hand, all she needs to do is get in close and fire an AOE poison attack like Coco did in the scan posted in the opener, with that your character would simply have no where to dodge to and simply getting tagged by the poison would end the fight.

Coco can also create smaller and faster poison blasts if needed that would be almost invisible to the human eye. This is what he used against the Devil Serpent.

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Overall I think with senses and the fact that he has AOE posioning, Colita due to being faster will be quicker on the draw and up close your character isn't going to avoid the poison attack.

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#13 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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@emperorthanos-: Sweet -- I'll try and have my post up in the next couple of days!

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Counters

Good post but I disagree with a majority of what you've provided as reasons your character is superior.

Your Durability

You're trying to claim that my character's striking power would be useless against Alita's durability because:

Alita has enough durability feats to not be too bothered by this to be honest. For one she survived a large fall into a scrap yard on to a giant pillar whilst previously getting a concussion and was perfectly fine despite it all. (Scans in reverse)

I disagree entirely. In this scan you've shown we don't know how fast Alita is falling. The pillar that she hits isn't moving at all AND the pillar breaks off into several stone chunks.

I don't see how this is comparable to a far more concentrated hit like we'd see from one of my amalgam's punches. It's like a concentrated impact test; the punch would be a concentrated impact, falling and hitting a massive pillar isn't concentrated, it's spread out across her body.

She also tanked being caught in a massive flood that over turned a truck. SHe was hit directly by it but was able to pull herself out and someone else. Seemingly fine after the whole ordeal. (Scans in reverse)

Again, this showing doesn't translate to a concentrated strike.

Both durability showings aren't very applicable to the type of damage being done. She's hitting stationary objects with her whole body instead of showing durability against a concentrated strike moving at rapid speeds.

My Durability

You've got some issues with my regeneration claims, stating that:

There isn't much to say here. Regen kind of negates a lot of stuff. But Coco's poison has brought down a being with regen like the Devil Serpent that was able to instantly regenerate from its limbs being cut off. Coco was able to make a less lethal poison to take it out so the serpent could still be eaten. Which of course he will not do here.

Again -- I don't think this is relevant.

The Devil Serpent may be able to quickly regrow limbs but that doesn't mean it's healing factor would be effective against toxins. In the real world there are types of Starfish that can regrow limbs; and Lizards that can regrow their tails, but that doesn't translate to having any innate toxin or poison resistance.

Meanwhile; Bloodshot's Nanites adapt immediately to filter the negative effects of things such as gasses and poisons in his body, as I've shown before.

Spider-Man's general toxin resistance combined with the filtering abilities of the nanites should make this poison a non-factor.

Speed Argument

Then you disagree that our speed is comparable.

Don't see how the speed is similar. Alita reacted to mach 4 attacks which is faster than really anything you have shown here. But the bigger gap is in combat speed given Alita moved faster than mach 3 jets. Nothing you have shown comes to that level of combat speed. Spiderman can react to that but tagging Alita is going to be another issue and it also mean Alita's speed allows Colita to attack faster.

So, Alita moving at less than Mach 1 to dodge an attack; and then stabbing her sword forward to pierce a water shield that was apparently mach 3 means that Spider-Man's speed isn't comparable?

By your own admission if you can only attack at a bit over Mach 3 then how are my Mach 3.5 reactions speeds not going to be enough?

Sure, you can dodge well, but with my comparable speed (literally less than half a mach for calculated feats) AND the Spider-Sense avoiding your Mach 3 attacks would be very, very possible. In fact; Spider-Man was able to attack fast enough to hit Daredevil; who is an incredibly skilled combatant with multiple bullet dodging/deflection feats, who was also AWARE that he was going to get hit, he still couldn't dodge.

I also question the skill of whomever it was with the Mach 4 attacks; if she could move at a speed about 3 mach's slower then his and dodge the attack than his combat skills seem to be lacking.

I think you're trying to make a bigger deal out of the "speed gap" than there actually is. So I stand by the statement that our speed is comparable. It's not like we're comparing Zoom or Wally West to a street level character or something here.

Web Shooters

Then it seemed like you wanted to burn through my webs.

Impressive but Colita should be able to just cut herself out of this. She has plasma jets that can cut through 40 millimeter skin and reach 15,000 degrees Celsius. (Scans in reverse)

That's impressive; but Spider Man's webs have been able to remain fairly intact against flame attacks from the Human Torch.

No Caption Provided

Torch was affected by an illusion that made him believe Spider-Man had killed Sue and Reed and was actively trying to kill him, and Torch's flames can burn hot enough to emulate the heat of a nuclear blast.

Obviously we don't know if Torch was burning THAT hot, but even if he was burning half at hot that'd be around 50,000 degrees Celsius, and if it was a quarter of that it'd be 25,000 Celsius, which are both much, much hotter than the plasma jets.

Assuming she gets tagged given her combat speed feats. I know he tags Blur but I'm not familiar with his reaction speed

I'll admit; not sure how fast he was moving there; but with Spider-Man's other speed feats that I've shown and the fact that you're bringing this battle close quarters, it'd be pretty easy to have a wide-spread web attack hit you and stall you enough to tag you with even more webbing to force an incap.

I obviously don't need to use as much web as Spider-Man used to support this building, but even a fraction of that web spam would catch you regardless of your reaction speed.

Nanites

I described the functionality of the Nanites and you believe that your poison is still too much for them.

Coco's poison is certainly more deadly given it is essentially a combination of the over 500 antibodies that have been injected into him. Coco's posion is also a lot more deadlier than Alcohol and works a lot quicker. Coco's poison was killing those bats right on contact. Thats how deadly his poison is, given it has the properties of over 500 different poisons.

Did those bats you've shown have any sort of previous poison resistance? Spider-Man's body was able to resist toxins that were supposed to kill him, and combined with the Nanites we can filter the poisons. I understand it's a VERY deadly poison, but the points you're bringing up are impressive against those beings who've shown no resistance to poison at all.

The Nanites can fight anything off as if it was an infection; they've regenerated against limb loss, piercing attacks, poisons, fought off a life-draining attack, and have resisted possession, viewing the invader as a virus.

The poison will be no different; the nanites will detect it and react to it, nullifying it. If Coco's body can produce anti-bodies than I don't see why these highly advanced nanites that've been shown and stated to filter toxins wouldn't be able to do the same. I mean, in the gas showing I provided the nanites immediately altered the red/white blood cells to filter the effects.

No Caption Provided

The nanites can and will fight off that poison.

Now, in regards to the invisibility.

Invisibility shouldn't be an issue. Alita can sense anything 15 meters of her based of electrical flow fluctuations. So she should be able to sense anyone invisible.

That's less than 60 feet; so with invisibility being done off the start you wouldn't be close enough to detect where I am or where I'm going. You're constantly having to guess my general area while I can see you from a distance with ease.

Overall

I still think that my Amalgamation has the versatility to win this fight in a multitude of ways; whereas you seem to be relying solely on Coco's poison attacks, which I feel I've adequately countered via the Nanites, since their ability to alter my blood and body should be providing the same effect that Coco's own antibodies provide him.

With my invisibility you have to try and track me down without concrete knowledge on exactly where I am, and I have a far greater mobility to move throughout the battlefield with my wall crawling and web slinging.

With the normal webs I have I can easily incapacitate you -- I've shown that they can resist heat at the same level you're demonstrating with the Plasma Jet, and spamming the webs would protect against poison as well. Since you keep trying to bring this close quarters all I have to do is break a web cartridge to simply encase you in a massive amount of webbing -- as shown below, scans in reverse.

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I also believe that if I were to strike you with one of my punches that it'd be more than enough to damage you. The durability showings you provided aren't comparable to taking a concentrated strike.

You've not once addressed the skills or abilities of your Legends Troopers so it seems even you agree that they're a non-factor in this debate, which is great, I think they have no impact on this match either.

In conclusion -- I think I've shown more than enough to prove that I can do the damage, tank your hits, and has the versatility to defeat you in a variety of ways in this fight, and of course, the speed to not only keep up with you, but also strike you.

Our next posts will be our closers and I wish you luck, @emperorthanos-

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#16  Edited By SolidCenturion

“ I’ll try and have my post up in the next couple of days!”

2 hours laters

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“ I’ll try and have my post up in the next couple of days!”

2 hours laters

I found a moment of inspiration, baahaha!

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#18 emperorthanos-  Moderator

I'll have my post up next week. sorry for the delay

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#20 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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#21 emperorthanos-  Moderator

Final post

My Durability

I don't see how this is comparable to a far more concentrated hit like we'd see from one of my amalgam's punches. It's like a concentrated impact test; the punch would be a concentrated impact, falling and hitting a massive pillar isn't concentrated, it's spread out across her body.

Both durability showings aren't very applicable to the type of damage being done. She's hitting stationary objects with her whole body instead of showing durability against a concentrated strike moving at rapid speeds.

The damage she takes at any point of her body is above anything you have shown stricking wise. Especially since you haven't actually provided any quantifiable striking feats your characters. Its just scaling, spiderman punched this guy or that guy doesn't tell me anything.

The force she takes is so far above what you have shown that it doesn't matter if its spread out her whole body since any single point in that attack would be taking more force than you can dish out. Also the water is not stationary. Its a flood of water that approaches her. I don't know how that seems stationary to you. She is taking the full force of waters weight hitting her as it flows downstream.

But I can still show Alita tanking blows from an exact copy of her. She and the clone trade blows, and we see at that start of the fight how strong they are with their strikes bringing down large rocks(Scans in reverse)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

Your Durability

Meanwhile; Bloodshot's Nanites adapt immediately to filter the negative effects of things such as gasses and poisons in his body, as I've shown before.

Spider-Man's general toxin resistance combined with the filtering abilities of the nanites should make this poison a non-factor.

I have issues because none of what you have shown is anyway near the level of Coco's poison. You have said they filter but how. Neither of the instances you showed involves poison that kills on contact but rather slow affecting poison that gives the nanites to filter them.

I showed two different ways his poison works, one which attacks internally and killing the opponent while the other kills on contact. Both much faster attacking than alcohol and neither are inhaled. The on contact would likely cause cell while the poison that enters causes paralysis affecting the muscles or nerves.

Speed

So, Alita moving at less than Mach 1 to dodge an attack; and then stabbing her sword forward to pierce a water shield that was apparently mach 3 means that Spider-Man's speed isn't comparable?

By your own admission if you can only attack at a bit over Mach 3 then how are my Mach 3.5 reactions speeds not going to be enough?

Because combat speed and reaction speeds are two different things. Alita's reaction speed is at Mach 4 while her combat speed is above Mach 3.

Putting her above Spider-man in both regards. At best you can argue Spiderman can react to Alita but he doesn't have the combat speed to keep up in actual combat.

Sure, you can dodge well, but with my comparable speed (literally less than half a mach for calculated feats) AND the Spider-Sense avoiding your Mach 3 attacks would be very, very possible. In fact; Spider-Man was able to attack fast enough to hit Daredevil; who is an incredibly skilled combatant with multiple bullet dodging/deflection feats, who was also AWARE that he was going to get hit, he still couldn't dodge.

Daredevil is no where near Alita in speed. You need faster than Mach 4 combat to actually tag Alita here. And you haven't shown movement speed any where near that level.

I also question the skill of whomever it was with the Mach 4 attacks; if she could move at a speed about 3 mach's slower then his and dodge the attack than his combat skills seem to be lacking.

There is also no skill here. It is a machine that explicitly moves at Mach 4. And its not different from bullet timing. Character who bullet timing don't move as fast as said they simply react and cross a far less distance than the bullet does.

None of these bullet timers can actually consistently fight at Supersonic speeds. Alita in that body couldn't but since got upgrades that allowed her to surpass Mach 3 in pure movement speed.

For your character to even tag Alita he would need Mach 3 combat speed which based on what has been shown he doesn't have.

Webshooters

Obviously we don't know if Torch was burning THAT hot, but even if he was burning half at hot that'd be around 50,000 degrees Celsius, and if it was a quarter of that it'd be 25,000 Celsius, which are both much, much hotter than the plasma jets.

TBH I'd like to see more on how much feat he was using here. Sure he can reach certain heat but we have no clue the level of heat he was using. We can't even assume he was burning that hot.

Its also not just the heat aspect since she is burning it up but rather creating a blade out of plasma that is also really hot. Making it a combination of both heat and piercing.

I'll admit; not sure how fast he was moving there; but with Spider-Man's other speed feats that I've shown and the fact that you're bringing this battle close quarters, it'd be pretty easy to have a wide-spread web attack hit you and stall you enough to tag you with even more webbing to force an incap.

Well get in close and fire poison. When it comes to who will be quicker on the draw, Alita is far faster. AOE works but how often does he use this is in character?

Nanites

Did those bats you've shown have any sort of previous poison resistance? Spider-Man's body was able to resist toxins that were supposed to kill him, and combined with the Nanites we can filter the poisons. I understand it's a VERY deadly poison, but the points you're bringing up are impressive against those beings who've shown no resistance to poison at all.

No I'm showing his application of poison. How deadly his poison is was told to us right from the start with this scan. His poison is the combination of over 500 different poisons combined

No Caption Provided

This makes it clear that his poison is the combination of 500 different poisons, from insects, snakes to plants. SPider-man has never dealt with the poison that essentially has the effects of over 500 different poisons.

The Nanites can fight anything off as if it was an infection; they've regenerated against limb loss, piercing attacks, poisons, fought off a life-draining attack, and have resisted possession, viewing the invader as a virus.

Yes but they have never dealt with a poison comprised of over 500 different poisons. That would have a multitude of effects.

The poison will be no different; the nanites will detect it and react to it, nullifying it. If Coco's body can produce anti-bodies than I don't see why these highly advanced nanites that've been shown and stated to filter toxins wouldn't be able to do the same. I mean, in the gas showing I provided the nanites immediately altered the red/white blood cells to filter the effects.

I don't understand this comparison at all. Coco was injected with 500 anti bodies, then though poison manipulation he can create new ones to counter act a new poison. But Nanites don't have the feats of countering a poison that would have multiple effects. Poison deadly that poisonous creatures literally run away from him. So lethal that creatures can outright tell how deadly it is from a distance. Coco also doesn't make anti bodies for his own poison? So I'm not sure what your argument is here?

That's less than 60 feet; so with invisibility being done off the start you wouldn't be close enough to detect where I am or where I'm going. You're constantly having to guess my general area while I can see you from a distance with ease.

So your character is just going to stay 60 feet away? As soon as you enter the range you get poisoned. You really haven't shown any ranged attacks to suggest you won't come close.

Its 50 feet basically so we would initially see your character as your turn invisible then resort to senses. We are in line of sight after all and you don't start invisible.

Other Counters

With my invisibility you have to try and track me down without concrete knowledge on exactly where I am, and I have a far greater mobility to move throughout the battlefield with my wall crawling and web slinging.

We would know initially where you are since we start in line of sight. While you turn invisible we just need to cover a distance of 10 feet which is nothing to someone who can move at super sonic speeds. After that your location will be known unless your character will just start running away.

With the normal webs I have I can easily incapacitate you -- I've shown that they can resist heat at the same level you're demonstrating with the Plasma Jet, and spamming the webs would protect against poison as well. Since you keep trying to bring this close quarters all I have to do is break a web cartridge to simply encase you in a massive amount of webbing -- as shown below, scans in reverse.

Well this still shows the webs slowly covering an opponent with clearly enough space to escape to if one was fast enough. Given Alita's combat speed.

I also believe that if I were to strike you with one of my punches that it'd be more than enough to damage you. The durability showings you provided aren't comparable to taking a concentrated strike.

Well that is assuming you ever tag me which I can't see happening. But even then you have yet to provide any actual strength feats that aren't just scaling.

Strategy

Nothing changes really. This battle comes down to whether you can survive the poison. I'm not convinced the nanites can deal with a poison that is essentially an amalgam over over 500 different poisons. Invisibility actually doesn't help you tbh because if we can't see you then it is all the more likely we will resort to an AOE Posion attack and take you down.

Given Alita's speed, we will be quicker on the draw, so you will get tagged by poison before you can do anything

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#22 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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@thetruebarryallen: @emperorthanos-: I’ll let it be Barry’s call on if he wants the DQ to go through

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@emperorthanos-: @solidcenturion: I’ll do final posts since he had it ready!

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Final Post

I'll didn't want to win via DQ if you had your post ready and thankfully you had something, but, and I don't know how to say this without it coming off as condescending, it's the same one-note post you've been using this entire debate.

Durability Argument

Your Durability

In an attempt to counter my strength argument you originally provided two different instances, one in which she falls an unknown distance (in your words: large fall) and breaks some rocks mid-fall after slamming into a pillar; the second, she gets caught in a flood that flipped over a truck.

The damage she takes at any point of her body is above anything you have shown stricking wise. Especially since you haven't actually provided any quantifiable striking feats your characters. Its just scaling, spiderman punched this guy or that guy doesn't tell me anything.

Let's use the Tombstone scan that I posted earlier for reference. Spider-Man was able to, in one, singular punch, KO Tombstone. Tombstone had previously been unaffected after falling through multiple floors of a building and then being hit with an RPG explosive (at close range) that Spider-Man comments on as having demolished an entire building.

If I'm using your showcased durability as a benchmark I simply need to do more damage than a stone pillar or a flood that overturned a truck; which, was that supposed to be impressive? I mean, Bloodshot was able to overturn a bulldozer if that's the strength you need shown to prove I can damage you:

No Caption Provided

Jokes aside -- I'd easily put KO'ing someone in a single punch that was able to withstand the punishment that Tombstone had over the feats you've displayed of the fall & the flood.

For good measure, here is Spider-Man breaking through some reinforced glass. It's stated he'd need to hit with the concussive force equal to an exploding mortar shell to do it, and he does it.

No Caption Provided

I think this should more than suffice to out-damage your 'rock busting' durability.

The force she takes is so far above what you have shown that it doesn't matter if its spread out her whole body since any single point in that attack would be taking more force than you can dish out. Also the water is not stationary. Its a flood of water that approaches her. I don't know how that seems stationary to you. She is taking the full force of waters weight hitting her as it flows downstream.

Nothing in the scans you've shown back up the claim that falling and breaking a stone pillar and/or being caught in a flash-flood grants you more durability than what a Bloodshot/Spider-Man amalgamation can dish out.

There's also no way to quantify how much damage she's resisting from that and you didn't provide any real analysis of the feat to indicate WHY they're impressive or WHY they're better than the damage I can do. We don't know how much force that water has aside from the fact that it overturned a truck -- humans have survived floods that have overturned vehicles.

Those are not impressive feats in the scope that you're presenting them in.

But I can still show Alita tanking blows from an exact copy of her. She and the clone trade blows, and we see at that start of the fight how strong they are with their strikes bringing down large rocks(Scans in reverse)

This would be great if you had focused at all on showing Alita's strength but you've only shown her punching around some bounty hunters (who you provided no feats for if we were to do any sort of scaling) and again a rock pillar being broken with a punch.

All of these are feats that Spider-Man can emulate, and then some. He's punched through reinforced steel doors, he's punched Electro through 40 stories of a sky-scraper. The benchmark durability you've set for Alita here by feats is simply that she can survive some stone-breaking hits, which, in a high street tournament, isn't all that impressive.

My Durability

This is essentially where your entire argument rests since you've chosen only to push the poison attacks your character can utilize.

I have issues because none of what you have shown is anyway near the level of Coco's poison. You have said they filter but how. Neither of the instances you showed involves poison that kills on contact but rather slow affecting poison that gives the nanites to filter them.

I literally posted a scan in which the nanites are described as altering his blood cells to negate the effects of a gas on his body.

Here's another one in which he takes a blast of venom to the face and again; his blood deals with it.

No Caption Provided

His blood can deal with poison, his blood can deal with venom. I don't understand why you thought it was such a good idea to focus only on this aspect of assault, especially when you've not done a good job of proving it's potency.

I showed two different ways his poison works, one which attacks internally and killing the opponent while the other kills on contact. Both much faster attacking than alcohol and neither are inhaled. The on contact would likely cause cell while the poison that enters causes paralysis affecting the muscles or nerves.

Poison that affects one internally would be moving through the bloodstream; poison that affects one on contact, externally, isn't a problem because Bloodshot's cellular regeneration could out-last any damage it does.

I've shown regeneration on a scale that Bloodshot's had massive holes blown through his head and he's regenerated instantly, and I've shown regeneration in which he can alter his blood cells to filter out hazardous materials.

I've also shown that Spider-Man at his base (without Bloodshot) was able to fight off hazardous affects that should've left him paralyzed like you're stating your poison will do to me, but for some reason none of those showings are valid because they're not on the level of Coco's poison, and meanwhile, you've not provided any strong argument for how potent it actually is.

The poison tactic will not work with what you've shown.

Speed

You've also been touting that your amalgamation has a massive speed advantage over me that I can't hope to compete with, which again, I disagree with completely.

Because combat speed and reaction speeds are two different things. Alita's reaction speed is at Mach 4 while her combat speed is above Mach 3. Putting her above Spider-man in both regards. At best you can argue Spiderman can react to Alita but he doesn't have the combat speed to keep up in actual combat.

You showed her dodging ONE Mach 4 attack (that was stated to be long distance) and have been using that as her consistent reaction speed, but even browsing her respect thread she's been hit by physical attacks from people who attack slower than Mach 4 -- you've shown no consistency in speed on high of a level.

Daredevil is no where near Alita in speed. You need faster than Mach 4 combat to actually tag Alita here. And you haven't shown movement speed any where near that level.

No you don't! You literally posted a scan in which Alita fought an exact copy of herself and they were both able to tag one another! By your own admission her combat speed isn't Mach 4!

There is also no skill here. It is a machine that explicitly moves at Mach 4. And its not different from bullet timing. Character who bullet timing don't move as fast as said they simply react and cross a far less distance than the bullet does.

No combat skill required to aim at and successfully hit a target? A target that, in the scan, is explicitly stated to be long distance?

No Caption Provided

Makaku still needs significant combat prowess shown to prove that dodging one of his attacks is impressive. The 'machine' that you're mentioning are the grind cutters built into his arm, and he states that they can move from Mach 3 to Mach 4. Great, he can attack fast, but is he accurate? You claiming that he doesn't need any sort of skill to hit a target, even with a fast attack has me flabbergasted.

Also -- when Makaku is targeting Alita it states, on panel, that she's moving Mach 0.94. She's moving 75% slower than the speed of the cutters; which, if you do the math, is Mach 3.76, not Mach 4 like you've been touting this entire debate.

I showed a scan of Spider-Man dodging a projectile that was moving at Mach 3.55 and you're acting like I'm MASSIVELY outclassed?

There is literally a difference of .20 -- you are not massively faster, you're slightly faster, but not to a significant margin that you're going to be dancing around me this entire fight.

Web-Shooters

This sentence is here simply for formatting.

TBH I'd like to see more on how much feat he was using here. Sure he can reach certain heat but we have no clue the level of heat he was using. We can't even assume he was burning that hot.

I unfortunately can't provide an exact temperature level. I still believe that the webbing would provide a significant problem for your blade.

Its also not just the heat aspect since she is burning it up but rather creating a blade out of plasma that is also really hot. Making it a combination of both heat and piercing.

You could probably cut through the webbing with the blade if given enough time, but let's be realistic, both of our characters are bloodlusted here. My character wouldn't be hitting you with a web incapacitation only to walk away.

Well get in close and fire poison. When it comes to who will be quicker on the draw, Alita is far faster. AOE works but how often does he use this is in character?

You're not far faster. You keep saying you're 'far faster' because of one feat, and when we look at the math using the numbers IN THAT FEAT you're not even moving at the speed you've been claiming this entire time.

Well this still shows the webs slowly covering an opponent with clearly enough space to escape to if one was fast enough. Given Alita's combat speed.

Your entire strategy is to come into close quarters combat, if the smallest amount of web gets on you then you're going to start slowing down and since you have a measly .2 mach speed advantage the rate at which the webbing would slow you would be enough to turn the speed advantage over to me.

Nanites

Poison

So far, this is the only argument you've actually used to state why your character is going to beat mine, you're going to poison me. You built an awesome amalgamation and then used 10% of it's abilities in combat. I'm disappointed because your poison argument isn't a good one.

No I'm showing his application of poison. How deadly his poison is was told to us right from the start with this scan. His poison is the combination of over 500 different poisons combined

Great, there are 500 different poisons. This still does nothing to indicate or prove how deadly each individual poison is.

This makes it clear that his poison is the combination of 500 different poisons, from insects, snakes to plants. SPider-man has never dealt with the poison that essentially has the effects of over 500 different poisons.

Having more poisons doesn't mean they're any more lethal, especially when I've shown the Nanites can deal with internal toxins and also can regenerate damaged tissue, muscle, bones, nerves, etc., with ease.

Yes but they have never dealt with a poison comprised of over 500 different poisons. That would have a multitude of effects.

If you want to invalidate the Human Torch scan because we don't know how hot his flames are burning (which is reasonable) then I'm going to call you out for not being able to prove what the "multitude of effects" are that this poison has.

I don't understand this comparison at all. Coco was injected with 500 anti bodies, then though poison manipulation he can create new ones to counter act a new poison. But Nanites don't have the feats of countering a poison that would have multiple effects. Poison deadly that poisonous creatures literally run away from him. So lethal that creatures can outright tell how deadly it is from a distance. Coco also doesn't make anti bodies for his own poison? So I'm not sure what your argument is here?

You haven't shown ANY of these multiple effects aside from killing two creatures that hadn't demonstrated ANY SORT OF POISON RESISTANCE. You're scaling off of them without providing any sort of resistance feats they may have that would make this poison the threat that you're claiming it is!

If Coco could adapt to these poisons through injecting anti-bodies then I literally see no reason why Bloodshot's regeneration which can filter his blood, shut off certain senses and receptors within his body, and regenerate tissue, bone, muscle, and nerves INSTANTLY wouldn't be able to counteract it! An antibody is a blood protein! The nanites can alter his blood! Why are you still trying to use poison here?!

Invisibility

I'm not relying on invisibility in this fight, but let's talk about it.

So your character is just going to stay 60 feet away? As soon as you enter the range you get poisoned. You really haven't shown any ranged attacks to suggest you won't come close.

No, I was simply stating that I'd have an initial advantage of you not being able to see me from the start.

Its 50 feet basically so we would initially see your character as your turn invisible then resort to senses. We are in line of sight after all and you don't start invisible.

Again, was just getting the initial advantage of you having to track me down instead of seeing me plain as day.

Conclusion

I fully believe I've shown a variety of methods that my amalgamation can use to combat yours successfully and come out of this fight with a win.

Let's recap:

  • My striking is comparable to that of a mortar shell and I was able to KO an individual (in one hit) who fell through multiple stories of a building (almost like falling and hitting some stone, no?) and was then hit with an RPG at close quarters and was unaffected. The striking you've shown is that your character can break through some stone.
  • You didn't really mention striking me with any sort of blunt force, but that is an argument the voters want to consider then in my first post I demonstrated Spider-Man getting punched through multiple walls by Hercules and tanking several hits from Juggernaut, both are characters who wouldn't have been allowed in this tournament due to their own levels of strength.
  • The speed argument on your part is dramatically exaggerated. The math in your own scans indicate that she didn't dodge a Mach 4 attack and the speed advantage you have over me is .2 machs, which my Spider-Sense and general combat skill should allow me to contend with. Add the chances of you getting slowed down by some webbing and that advantage is completely nullified.
  • Your poison argument was also lackluster. Spider-Man's base healing factor has allowed him to withstand poisons and toxins that should've killed him or left him paralyzed. When you add in the nanites from Bloodshot to enhance that healing factor then the poison is a non-factor, especially since the creatures you showed the poison working on displayed no resistance to poison in the first place, meanwhile I've showed several occasions of Bloodshot dealing with toxins, gas, venoms, etc.
  • With you fighting with me at close quarters the chances of you getting tagged by webbing is even more likely. You mention that web spam is out of character but Spider-Man has used web-spam incapacitation multiple times, I even demonstrated him using webbing to restrain foes he couldn't physically out-punch, also, we're both bloodlusted, so that line of what 'in-character' is becomes a bit more blurred.

All in all I don't think you did much in this debate aside from over-state your speed and put all your eggs into the poison basket. I'm reading to open this for votes, best of luck to you.

@emperorthanos- / @solidcenturion

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Bumping for votes.

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Sheesh.

Yeah, I'm definitely voting for @thetruebarryallen. He was very aggressive and pushed the right points to cement his team's victory. He did a great job of debunking ET's speed arguments, Bringing up the fact that Alita fought her clone, who is slower than Mach 4, proves that you don't have to be Mach 4 or faster to tag Alita. And really, speed was ET's saving grace. Physically, I was never convinced that ET's amalgam could tank anything more than a glancing blow from Barry's amalgam. ET didn't really explain how they were impressive, and from what he did say, they hardly stacked up to Spidey's physical showings. ET's only win condition with the poison, and even then, his arguments weren't concrete enough to solidify a win against an enemy with nanites that has already resisted poisons in the past. ET didn't really elaborate on the potency of the poison, so there was no reason to assume it would oneshot Barry's build, especially with the nanites. The webs opening up the possibility for incap was the nail in the coffin. So yeah, Barry wins this, and quite handily at that. This was an enjoyable debate, but there was a very clear winner.