Altair vs Ezio vs Connor

Altair wins. It even said in the AC3 bio that he is considered one of the greatest fighters in assasin history

@kickazz786 said:

@MonsterStomp said:

1. The cannon says to escape yes, which he did, however in the process of escaping he had to have fought assassins on his way out. Your forgetting that most of the men under Abbas are trained Assassins who know very well how to pursue their targets. You think Altair had a red carpet laid down for him and he just walked out of Masyaf? He was 63 years old fighting his way out.

2. Nope it doesn't matter how long he spent AFTER he took it from Al-Mualim. Since the beginning, Altair has ALWAYS been able to hold the Apple in his hands without any problem what so ever. On the other hand Ezio could not. In fact, Altair was able to fight Al-Mualim who wielded the power of the Apple in his hand. In any case, Altair was the master of the apple since his first encounter with it, something Ezio could never do. I remember playing AC2 and being really angry at how Ubisoft made Ezio the apple's and Borgia's little (b-word). Ofcourse in Brotherhood and in Revelations they made Ezio look a lot better, but that's another point entirely.

3. It's funny how your saying that Altair needed the help of the Apple to make armor and weapons. I'm going to tie your two arguments against you. "Time and the help of the Apple". You said that I cant say Altair would be better than Ezio with the bombing tactics because it wasn't in his time. But guess what, neither was the gun he used to kill Abbas, but he did as an 82 YEAR OLD MAN! Wonder if Ezio could do something extraordinary at that age, oh wait, Ezio never lived to be that long... Oops. Now lets talk about your claim of how Altair needed the HELP OF THE APPLE. Oh so its not okay for Altair to be able to MASTER THE APPLE (something Ezio could never do) and use it to GAIN knowledge of armor that was beyond his time lay out the foundations for the future, while it is okay for Ezio to use the help of 6-7 Assassins to train him over the coarse of 50 something years? What kind of logic are you suggesting here? If anything, Altair using the Apple to figure out and lay the foundations for his own brotherhood in a mere 20 years is a lot more epic than what Ezio did; which is to train himself with the help of 6-7 men and women and learn to be a better assassin, which by the way took him 50 years! Hell Ezio never even created his own legacy, all he did was kill Templars and find Altair's secrets. Altair made up his own inventions. Whose more of a legend? Whose accomplished more? Exactly.

4. Actually it took Altair from July of 1191 to September of 1191. He was 26 years old throughout AC1. How long did it take Ezio to kill those 5 or so Head templars? 25 years?

"The fact that Ezio took so long was based on resources. Since the Italian assassin's were under the radar and in a broken up order they lacked resources. And Rodrigo had more connections/contacts than Al Mulaim did, which made him harder to get to. Ezio practically had to wait for the Templars to slip up, even if it were for an entire year or so."

Umm completely wrong. Lol. I think you really need to play AC1 and AC2 again because this statement pretty much shows your lack of differentiating between the two games. In AC1 Altair assassinates 9 Templars AND Al-Mualim on his OWN. He requires NO ONES help. The ONLY help he receives is a place to sleep in each of the cities such as Acre, or Jerusalem. Every single investigation and planning was done by Altair HIMSELF. THAT is what makes Altair the better assassin. He investigated, planned, killed and evaded all on his own. Ezio in AC2 on the other hand required the help from almost EVERYONE that he met. And he didn't even kill as many templar leaders as Altair did (not to mention he failed at killing Borgia at his first attempt, which by the way he required a lot of help from Mario and others).

And you keep raising this point that Ezio trained 6 Assassins. Thats not much of an accomplishment given that he himself is a master assassin. What makes you think Altair cant do the same and more? Altair spent his life studying the Apple, he wasn't interesting in training individuals, he was out to look for the overall betterment of the creed. Ezio never accomplished that feat. I guess all your point does is make me think that Ezio had small accomplishments such as training 6 master assassins, whereas Altair prevents a civil war in the brotherhood, takes out Abbas and his captains at age 83 and establishes a better and far more advance creed for years to come with the use of the Apple.

The number of assassin's he killed on the way out of Masyaf was never specified if any. Altair wasn't alone either. His eldest son would have been killing more than Altair did.

2. Altair wasn't a master of the Apple since first encounter, and nothing suggests that. Altair was only a master of the Apple after 20 years of dedicated studies. He made the gun because of the knowledge the Apple granted him. Read the codex pages, Altair clearly fell victim to the Apples temptations, and it is a possibility that Altair used the apple to extend his life. Seeing as not one person in human history would be able to live that long let alone reach their 50s back then.

I didn't say that using the Apples knowledge wasn't allowed for Altair. I merely pointed out the fact that Altair needed the Apple to design the armor, and gun. He also mentions in Revelations that he saw a glimpse of the future. So whats the feat here? He mastered the Apple and knows how to obtain what he desires? Ezio was trained by 9 assassin's, two of which were masters (Yusif and Piri). He didn't need an ancient artifact to help him. Altair didn't invent anything, the Apple practically handed to Altair whatever Altair desired.

3. Ezio killed NINETEEN (19) main Templars by the end of AC2. It took him 22 years because he had to wait them out. Do you even read what I'm saying?

4. You said it yourself. Ezio was trained under the radar and in a broken up order. I agree. They lacked resources. Rodrigo had waaay more connections then Al Mualim, making him harder to get to. Rodrigo had power. The Assassin's were but a spec of dust. Hence why Ezio needed the help. Ezio orchestrated the entire thing but learned as he went along as well.

I think you need to play the entire series again. Altair is not as skilled as Ezio. The fact that Altair is the Grand Master doesn't mean he's the most skilled.

From someone who has played and beat all of the AC games I think that you can not really compare the 3 since you have 3 games about Ezio and 1 game for both Altair and Conner(so im going on that they are equally skilled) . You have to look at the games at the time they came out of course Altair looks weak compared to the other to 2 all you had was 1 sword, dagger, and lots of throwing knifes. Compare that with the addition of the crossbow, the large selection of bombs from Revelations, dual hidden blades, the hook blade, guns, the bow in AC3, its just not possible to say yeah this 1 wins over this 1. Here are my thoughts on who would win any way.

In round 1 Conner wins because the guns he has available are far above the other 2

In round 2 they all get their hidden blades and their preferred one handed weapon which means Altair gets the 1 hidden blade cause he never uses 2(im going on the games alone if he used 2 in some other media then im sorry I did not know) and the Sword of Altair (give me one reason he wouldnt have it lol) Ezio gets dual hidden blades one being the hook blade since it has the the same function as the regular hidden blade plus the added features it has. He also gets the Yusuf's Turkish Kijil which is a sword in AC Rev (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Yusuf%27s_Turkish_Kijilthe reason I think he would have this on him is that the way he obtains it is what I think he would do in his life ) Finally Conner has just the dual hidden blades since he is never shown with the hook blade and his tomahawk which has a wooden handle if im not mistaken. So with that said im giving this round to Ezio since he has the hook blade that both Altair and Conner have never seen plus Ezio has used Altairs sword and knows what to expect from the blade that and the fact that a tomahawk can be broken easier than a sword.

in round 3 its a toss up its basically who is stronger and more skilled in H2H which is never stated and cant be compared other than look at what combos they added in the newer games.

@MonsterStomp said:

@Pyrogram: Yeah, both Parkour and Free Running contain the SAME ideas of overcoming obstacles. Meaning, it doesn't matter if I said parkour or free running, the goal was to overcome obstacles which Ezio was trained in.

Ezio was destined for the order. At age 17 he was already adept in free running, hand to hand combat, and some swordsmanship. His uncle Mario trained him in the art of combat for 2 years straight. Altair was 11 when he was actually training. Altair lost his touch after being exiled at 60 something. Since all he was doing was studying the Apple. Altair's teacher was Al Mualim, who only trained one person to the rank of a master assassin. Ezio had more versatility in his training.

No, If you cannot name what they do without failing you cannot debate about who has more skill, its that simple. It don't matter? Er.. yes it does...Look up with the differences are and not the similarities than come back to me.

AT 17 he was not that good at H2H, common florntine boys could make him lose life without desynchronisation so that proves he was not that good. and he could not even USE a sword for the memory;s in brotherhood flashbacks for number 2 and number 2 for ages so he was not adept at 17.... Mario is nothing compare to Altiars masters - Altair was trained in combat for 40+ years straight. He lost his touch? DO YOU PLAY THE GAME AT ALL? He was killing and do missions into his 90's beating 30+ Templar per mission lol. Al mualim and the other people and ENVIRONMENT Altair trained in gives him the edge over ezio who had an occasional trainer who was nothing compare an army of assassins in maysaf.

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@Pyrogram said:

@MonsterStomp said:

No, If you cannot name what they do without failing you cannot debate about who has more skill, its that simple. It don't matter? Er.. yes it does...Look up with the differences are and not the similarities than come back to me.

AT 17 he was not that good at H2H, common florntine boys could make him lose life without desynchronisation so that proves he was not that good. and he could not even USE a sword for the memory;s in brotherhood flashbacks for number 2 and number 2 for ages so he was not adept at 17.... Mario is nothing compare to Altiars masters - Altair was trained in combat for 40+ years straight. He lost his touch? DO YOU PLAY THE GAME AT ALL? He was killing and do missions into his 90's beating 30+ Templar per mission lol. Al mualim and the other people and ENVIRONMENT Altair trained in gives him the edge over ezio who had an occasional trainer who was nothing compare an army of assassins in maysaf.

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Parkour and free running are both the same in terms of reaching a specific spot in the fastest most efficient way. I will hold that argument until proven otherwise.

Read Ezio's profile up on assassin's creed wiki. He did aquire some basic fighting skills by 17. Mario was the Italian Condottiero and leader of the Italian assassin's. He could very well be adept at swordsmanship. Altair's masters? He had one trainer... Ezio had 9 and 3 of them were masters. Ezio trained for 40+ years too. Did you play the game at all? Altair wasn't killing Templars at 90. He returned to Masyaf at 82 to reclaim his title. 20 Years before he was harvesting the Apples knowledge, not training. Altair lost his touch at 62 onwards. When was Altair killing 30+ templars a mission? He killed a life total of 28 main Templar's. Ezio killed a life total of 38. If you want to bring side missions into this, I'd happily pull out my notes. Mario wasn't a noob alright, he was able to fend off multiple surprise attacks as the lone ruler of the villa auditore. Mario trained Ezio 2 years straight before Ezio began his hunt. Ezio then met 6 other assassin's during that time who helped train him. At age 50 something, Ezio met 2 other masters who trained him as well. Ezio had more versatile training then Altair. Altair grew up in an assassin guild and spent his life there, so what? Just because its an assassin guild it downgrades Ezio because he wasn't trained in one? Ezio traveled the world and learnt different forms of fighting techniques. Ezio was always learning throughout his lifetime, why is that a bad thing?

@MonsterStomp said:

@Pyrogram said:

@MonsterStomp said:

No, If you cannot name what they do without failing you cannot debate about who has more skill, its that simple. It don't matter? Er.. yes it does...Look up with the differences are and not the similarities than come back to me.

AT 17 he was not that good at H2H, common florntine boys could make him lose life without desynchronisation so that proves he was not that good. and he could not even USE a sword for the memory;s in brotherhood flashbacks for number 2 and number 2 for ages so he was not adept at 17.... Mario is nothing compare to Altiars masters - Altair was trained in combat for 40+ years straight. He lost his touch? DO YOU PLAY THE GAME AT ALL? He was killing and do missions into his 90's beating 30+ Templar per mission lol. Al mualim and the other people and ENVIRONMENT Altair trained in gives him the edge over ezio who had an occasional trainer who was nothing compare an army of assassins in maysaf.

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Parkour and free running are both the same in terms of reaching a specific spot in the fastest most efficient way. I will hold that argument until proven otherwise. No, that just applies to free running. You quoted me something out of context , you know you lost if you read further on ( 1 line ) after you quoted me. Just admit defeat.

Read Ezio's profile up on assassin's creed wiki. He did aquire some basic fighting skills by 17. Altair was a trained assassin at 17.

Mario was the Italian Condottiero and leader of the Italian assassin's. He could very well be adept at swordsmanship.

Speculation, Mario never showed much skill to be honest.

Altair's masters? He had one trainer... Ezio had 9 and 3 of them were masters.

In the creed they all trained each other, Altair had many teachers ( who had been training for a lifetime ), He had 1 master who was better than ezio's without a debate. - He deserved the title master, Ezio had so many masters it lost meaning.

Ezio trained for 40+ years too. Did you play the game at all?

He died 30 years younger, Altair had longer to train and DID train for longer.

Altair wasn't killing Templars at 90. He returned to Masyaf at 82 to reclaim his title.

Ok, 82 then, still older than EZIO even lived.

20 Years before he was harvesting the Apples knowledge, not training.

And this proves? He could still defeat countless assassins in his 80's.

Altair lost his touch at 62 onwards.

Really? He defeated many at 82???

When was Altair killing 30+ templars a mission?

When I was playing with him

He killed a life total of 28 main Templar's.

Main.

Ezio killed a life total of 38. If you want to bring side missions into this, I'd happily pull out my notes.

That is unfair as we did not see Altiar's past.

Mario wasn't a noob alright, he was able to fend off multiple surprise attacks as the lone ruler of the villa auditore.

And died.

Mario trained Ezio 2 years straight before Ezio began his hunt.

WWOWOW, Altair trained his whole life straight.

Ezio then met 6 other assassin's during that time who helped train him.

Who could not compare to a lifetime of training with an army of assassins.

At age 50 something, Ezio met 2 other masters who trained him as well.

There are a lot of masters recently, I wonder what it takes to be called a master them days...

Ezio had more versatile training then Altair.

That has no meaning in this fight.

Altair grew up in an assassin guild and spent his life there, so what?

If you really cannot comprehend what that means, You need to re-think your assassins creed knowledge, He was constantly training for his life, attaining skills.

Just because its an assassin guild it downgrades Ezio because he wasn't trained in one?

Exactly.

Ezio traveled the world and learnt different forms of fighting techniques. Ezio was always learning throughout his lifetime, why is that a bad thing?

It is not, its brilliant, but Altair's life was killing and training, nothing else.

@Epicbeast3000 said:

Altair wins because he is just a far greater assasin. He has never been hit by a sword, thats how good he is at sword fighting. As for assasino skills, He hunted 5 templar grand masters in just 3 months. It took Ezio 25 years to find and kill a single templar grand master. Altair also mastered the apple of eden at the age of 26 something which Ezio could never do. Connor is far from Altair standerds. The dude had trouble with Haythem. Altair again has never had trouble with any one, not even Armand Bouchart or bouchard. Armand slapped away Maria and another high level Templar Captain like they were nothing in bloodlines. Altair also built the Altair's armour which was far beyond its time. The armour is literally unbreakable. In the end of the day, Altair is just much much more strategically smart, skilled and knowledgable than Ezio and Connor. Altair has made a legacy and is renowned to be one of the greatest assasins of all time.

Connor had trouble with haytham when he was weakened cause he was shot at by cannon, and beat him anyway. IMO it all depends on their timeline. Connor and Ezio have guns and other weaponry far more advanced then Altairs. Connor is very skilled but is not as experienced as Altair or Ezio, however his gear should make up for all of that lost experience. However it all comes down to Ezio and Altair in the end, and IMO ezio wins because he is as skilled and as experienced as Altair but to add to that he has more advanced weaponry.

@14NC3 said:

@Epicbeast3000 said:

Altair wins because he is just a far greater assasin. He has never been hit by a sword, thats how good he is at sword fighting. As for assasino skills, He hunted 5 templar grand masters in just 3 months. It took Ezio 25 years to find and kill a single templar grand master. Altair also mastered the apple of eden at the age of 26 something which Ezio could never do. Connor is far from Altair standerds. The dude had trouble with Haythem. Altair again has never had trouble with any one, not even Armand Bouchart or bouchard. Armand slapped away Maria and another high level Templar Captain like they were nothing in bloodlines. Altair also built the Altair's armour which was far beyond its time. The armour is literally unbreakable. In the end of the day, Altair is just much much more strategically smart, skilled and knowledgable than Ezio and Connor. Altair has made a legacy and is renowned to be one of the greatest assasins of all time.

Connor had trouble with haytham when he was weakened cause he was shot at by cannon, and beat him anyway. IMO it all depends on their timeline. Connor and Ezio have guns and other weaponry far more advanced then Altairs. Connor is very skilled but is not as experienced as Altair or Ezio, however his gear should make up for all of that lost experience. However it all comes down to Ezio and Altair in the end, and IMO ezio wins because he is as skilled and as experienced as Altair but to add to that he has more advanced weaponry.

He obviously was not as skilled ( Read above ) but I agree with the advanced weapons.

@MonsterStomp said:

The number of assassin's he killed on the way out of Masyaf was never specified if any. Altair wasn't alone either. His eldest son would have been killing more than Altair did.

2. Altair wasn't a master of the Apple since first encounter, and nothing suggests that. Altair was only a master of the Apple after 20 years of dedicated studies. He made the gun because of the knowledge the Apple granted him. Read the codex pages, Altair clearly fell victim to the Apples temptations, and it is a possibility that Altair used the apple to extend his life. Seeing as not one person in human history would be able to live that long let alone reach their 50s back then.

I didn't say that using the Apples knowledge wasn't allowed for Altair. I merely pointed out the fact that Altair needed the Apple to design the armor, and gun. He also mentions in Revelations that he saw a glimpse of the future. So whats the feat here? He mastered the Apple and knows how to obtain what he desires? Ezio was trained by 9 assassin's, two of which were masters (Yusif and Piri). He didn't need an ancient artifact to help him. Altair didn't invent anything, the Apple practically handed to Altair whatever Altair desired.

3. Ezio killed NINETEEN (19) main Templars by the end of AC2. It took him 22 years because he had to wait them out. Do you even read what I'm saying?

4. You said it yourself. Ezio was trained under the radar and in a broken up order. I agree. They lacked resources. Rodrigo had waaay more connections then Al Mualim, making him harder to get to. Rodrigo had power. The Assassin's were but a spec of dust. Hence why Ezio needed the help. Ezio orchestrated the entire thing but learned as he went along as well.

I think you need to play the entire series again. Altair is not as skilled as Ezio. The fact that Altair is the Grand Master doesn't mean he's the most skilled.

1. Again to the red carpet theory, Altair didn't just walk out of Masyaf. And hes in assassins territory. These are TRAINED killers, theyre not just going to let you out easy. And even so Altair was 63 years old when he fled Masyaf, that in itself shows great will and strength in old age than Ezio. Ezio was dead at age 65 and retired at 52. Altair was not.

2. Yes it does. He held it without any problem. Ezio on the other hand fainted. Altair fell victim to its temptations due to long work with it, however he still held his own and didn't give in. unlike Ezio who as I stated before was weak with it. And I cant believe you think Altair paving the way for the assassins through the use of the apple isn't a feat. Ubisoft, your boy Ezio, and the future thinks his contribution was a huge one, yet we have trolls such as you saying "whats the feat?" Lol. Also, there are plenty of men living passed age 50 during the crusades, perhaps you should open a history book. And its funny how you once again use speculations to think that Altair used the apple to lengthen his life because "nobody lived that long". How do you explain Abbas and Al-Mualim living to be that old then? Nice try to demean Altair once again, it didn't work. No he did not use the apple to lengthen his age. Give proof not speculations.

3. So according to you Ezio killed 19 Templars in 22 years. But Altair killed 10 in 3 months and yet you think Ezio is a better assassin? Do you know the definition of an assassin? Fast, efficient work need to be done, something Altair proved to do unlike Ezio (who had the epic fail with Borgia). Nothing you have said is showing how Ezio is the better Assassin. He needed the help of 6-7 Assassins to do his killings which still took him 22 years. While Altair needed no ones help and killed 10 Templar leaders in 3 months. Argument over.

4. Ezio had the opportunity to kill his targets and failed many times. That's what makes him a lesser assassin than Altair.

You mentioned somewhere that Altair didn't have much accomplishments. What did Ezio do? Train 6 assassins? spend his life being taught? killing 38 Templars? Go find Altairs apple? That's it? Altair did all that (except personally train assassins) and way more. Paved the way for the brotherhood, married a hot Templar girl, prevented a civil war within the brotherhood, held off the mongols, unlocked the apples potential, create a legacy of himself (btw theres statue of him in Italy that's how far his legacy went). create his own library, became the grand master of an entire brotherhood, self imposed exile and still having an impact on the brotherhood while being away. Argument over unless you stop making speculations and start giving facts to counter Altairs achievements.

Go play the game again or keep your opinions. You can never convince people or Ubisoft whose a better Assassin with weak speculations and arguments. Altair did his assassin work and went on to bigger and better things (while still being able to kick butt at an old age). Ezio only killed and trained, nothing else. And he died at an age (65), an age that altair was still climbing walls and fighting mongols in Cyprus.

@MonsterStomp said:

Even with the Masyaf keys, those are Altair's recorded memories. The keys say to Ezio do not drop below 3 bars indicating Altair at least took 3 bars of damage. I doubt they'd be synchronization bars, otherwise why in the hell would you be able to heal it with medicine? That would just take the argument to a whole other level.

Altair hesitated with Abbas. Explain that? Abbas had Altair's wife, young son and best friend killed and Altair heads for the hills for the next 30 years even though Abbas was right there and Altair had the Apple. Both have flaws in that department. Except Ezio wouldn't have head for the hills, he would have killed someone for even threatening him like he was going to do with the Sultan, but Sofia held Ezio back.

Altair's only feat was defeating a bunch of low ranking saracen's unharmed and fighting Al Mualim. I agree, by the end of Brotherhood, Ezio didn't do many impressive things seeing he wasn't even in his prime. Though Ezio has taken on high ranking Papal guards in the assassination contracts.

1. Again you're ignoring the fact that whenever Ezio relives Altair's memories, you are given Sync bar and NOT health bars. It is impossible for Altair to take 3 damage in any of the Brotherhood memories because you can only lose 3 SYNCRONIZATION. Here's the description straight from the game 'memory Mentor's Wake 'Do not lose more than 3 syncronization points.' So at no point can you even argue that Altair took damage. If anything that just proves that Ezio took damage since to 100% sync with him you're allowed to take damage. Any damage at all results in desyncing from Altair. Desyncing for about 3 sync points of damage is enough to 100% sync with Ezio.

You're also mistaking 100% as a Masayuf Key mechanic. Whenever you open the Animus menu you see your sync rate with Ezio not Altair. So losing 3 sync in any Altair memory means that you failed to sync with Ezio 100%. That's what subject 16 says. You have to complete each of Ezio's memories to get your rate up enough to leave.

2. If Altair kills Abbas then the Assassin Order falls into Civil war. He had to wait until Abass' abuse created enough tension where he could be killed and keep the order whole. Altair did what he thought best and his results bear that out.

3. Uhh The Crusades had professional armies. Altair fought Saladin's army then fought through the Crusader army. Then he fought dozens of Templars lead bt Robert de Sable alone and won. That's an impressive assasination and better than ANYTHING Ezio has done. That's on top of not getting hit. If you're saying that Ezio is better then you need to provide feats that at least rival that.

@MonsterStomp said:

1. Altair hesitated with Abbas. Explain that? Abbas had Altair's wife, young son and best friend killed and Altair heads for the hills for the next 30 years even though Abbas was right there and Altair had the Apple.

2. Except Ezio wouldn't have head for the hills, he would have killed someone for even threatening him like he was going to do with the Sultan, but Sofia held Ezio back.

3. Altair's only feat was defeating a bunch of low ranking saracen's unharmed and fighting Al Mualim. I agree, by the end of Brotherhood, Ezio didn't do many impressive things seeing he wasn't even in his prime. Though Ezio has taken on high ranking Papal guards in the assassination contracts.

1. You must be as dumb as the description of Ezio you giving. Seriously if you've misplaced your game I will personally buy Revelations for you so you can truly understand the storyline. Altair didn't kill Abbas because Maria told him not to seek revenge, on top of that reassured him that not overthrowing Abbas long ago cause Altair to be respected by the younger assassins and that's exactly what happened. And when Altair came back at age 82 most of the assassins were happy to see him and defended him against Abbas's captains. Now that's style. Planning to overthrow the leader after your work with the apple is done and you have gained enough respect from the villagers and brotherhood.

2. Right sure he would. Remember when Sofia restrained him from killing the Turkish Sultan? That's exactly how it was with Altair and Maria. The woman always does what she can to prevent her man from killing.

3. Like you yourself said 28 Templars. You proved yourself wrong. By the end of brotherhood, Ezio is around 48 years old and you just admitted that he didn't accomplish much by then. Hmm so Altair by the age of 26 has accomplished a whole lot, and Ezio by age 48 hasn't accomplished much. I wonder what would be the case if Altair wasn't busy with the apple for the rest of his life. I wonder how much Altair would have accomplished just being an assassin. According to your calculations a crap ton more than Ezio. Oh and I suggest you read up on The Crusades, the crusades (Saracens and Christians) had one of the best trained militias in history.

You mentioned that Altair only killed 28 main Templars while Ezio killed 38. Ezio was a full time assassin for his whole life while Altair was only a full time assassin till his mid 20s and then devoted the rest of his life towards the apple and part time assassin work. Do you realize how your own math is proving how much more potential Altair has than Ezio? If Altair was a full time assassin, the amount of main templars he killed would be much higher than 28 or 38. You just proved that Altair is a better assassin than Ezio because even while Altair isn't working as a full time Assassin (with a wife and 2 kids and an apple to work with), he manages to kill 28 main Templars, while Ezio working as a full time assassin WITHOUT A WIFE AND FAMILY, killed a mere 38.

One thing that absolutely NEEDS to be considered is how absolutely depleted the Assassin order was by Ezio's time. The Syrian branch under Yusuf seemed capable enough but the European Assassins were pretty bare bones compared to Altair's day. There were no skilled Assassins except for Ezio's father Giovanni who, quite frankly, kind of sucked compared to both Ezio and Altair. Mario was a brawler and that's it. Maybe the Fox was good but we don't know. Outside of that the prominent Assassins were prostitutes and politicians. These are the ones that taught Ezio. By contrast the Assassins of Altair's day were training since birth. Heck everything Ezio knows outside of the leap jump and hookblade, he learned from readin Altair's notes. Altair LIETERALLY wrote the book on killing that Ezio learned from.

Altair also left Masayuf to assassinate Ghenghis Khan so what was a clear Altair victory turns into a landslipe win. Ghenghis freaking Khan.

@kickazz786 said:

1. Again to the red carpet theory, Altair didn't just walk out of Masyaf. And hes in assassins territory. These are TRAINED killers, theyre not just going to let you out easy. And even so Altair was 63 years old when he fled Masyaf, that in itself shows great will and strength in old age than Ezio. Ezio was dead at age 65 and retired at 52. Altair was not.

2. Yes it does. He held it without any problem. Ezio on the other hand fainted. Altair fell victim to its temptations due to long work with it, however he still held his own and didn't give in. unlike Ezio who as I stated before was weak with it. And I cant believe you think Altair paving the way for the assassins through the use of the apple isn't a feat. Ubisoft, your boy Ezio, and the future thinks his contribution was a huge one, yet we have trolls such as you saying "whats the feat?" Lol. Also, there are plenty of men living passed age 50 during the crusades, perhaps you should open a history book. And its funny how you once again use speculations to think that Altair used the apple to lengthen his life because "nobody lived that long". How do you explain Abbas and Al-Mualim living to be that old then? Nice try to demean Altair once again, it didn't work. No he did not use the apple to lengthen his age. Give proof not speculations.

3. So according to you Ezio killed 19 Templars in 22 years. But Altair killed 10 in 3 months and yet you think Ezio is a better assassin? Do you know the definition of an assassin? Fast, efficient work need to be done, something Altair proved to do unlike Ezio (who had the epic fail with Borgia). Nothing you have said is showing how Ezio is the better Assassin. He needed the help of 6-7 Assassins to do his killings which still took him 22 years. While Altair needed no ones help and killed 10 Templar leaders in 3 months. Argument over.

4. Ezio had the opportunity to kill his targets and failed many times. That's what makes him a lesser assassin than Altair.

You mentioned somewhere that Altair didn't have much accomplishments. What did Ezio do? Train 6 assassins? spend his life being taught? killing 38 Templars? Go find Altairs apple? That's it? Altair did all that (except personally train assassins) and way more. Paved the way for the brotherhood, married a hot Templar girl, prevented a civil war within the brotherhood, held off the mongols, unlocked the apples potential, create a legacy of himself (btw theres statue of him in Italy that's how far his legacy went). create his own library, became the grand master of an entire brotherhood, self imposed exile and still having an impact on the brotherhood while being away. Argument over unless you stop making speculations and start giving facts to counter Altairs achievements.

Go play the game again or keep your opinions. You can never convince people or Ubisoft whose a better Assassin with weak speculations and arguments. Altair did his assassin work and went on to bigger and better things (while still being able to kick butt at an old age). Ezio only killed and trained, nothing else. And he died at an age (65), an age that altair was still climbing walls and fighting mongols in Cyprus.

1. Alright. The assassin's he fought were featless. If they were really as skilled as Altair, the Mongolian army wouldn't have overthrown their guild.

2. Fair enough. Lets say for arguments sake that Altair didn't use the Apple to prolong his life, dispite him harvesting in the Apples temptations. Doesn't really matter how long Altair lived. Ezio still killed more main templars in the shorter life he lived.

3. Like I keep saying. Actually you said it as well. Ezio was trained in a broken up order. All resources were depleted. Rodrigo had way more connections than Al Mualim. Making him harder to reach. Ezio had to wait the Templars to slip up. There were times when Ezio had to act fast, like killing Carlo, he did that after an entire days preparation. Altair killed 10 Templars in 3 months. Cool. Altair killed 28 total in his lifetime. Ezio killed 38 in his lifetime. Argument over.

4. Ezio failed one assassination opportunity. Rodrigo.

Ezio has his legacy. He basically liberated entire Europe. His Assassin's led the order 500 years after his death. Ezio also has a statue in the modern age as well. And was responsable for training Desmond Miles. Fact.

@MisterGuyMan said:

1. Again you're ignoring the fact that whenever Ezio relives Altair's memories, you are given Sync bar and NOT health bars. It is impossible for Altair to take 3 damage in any of the Brotherhood memories because you can only lose 3 SYNCRONIZATION. Here's the description straight from the game 'memory Mentor's Wake 'Do not lose more than 3 syncronization points.' So at no point can you even argue that Altair took damage. If anything that just proves that Ezio took damage since to 100% sync with him you're allowed to take damage. Any damage at all results in desyncing from Altair. Desyncing for about 3 sync points of damage is enough to 100% sync with Ezio.

You're also mistaking 100% as a Masayuf Key mechanic. Whenever you open the Animus menu you see your sync rate with Ezio not Altair. So losing 3 sync in any Altair memory means that you failed to sync with Ezio 100%. That's what subject 16 says. You have to complete each of Ezio's memories to get your rate up enough to leave.

2. If Altair kills Abbas then the Assassin Order falls into Civil war. He had to wait until Abass' abuse created enough tension where he could be killed and keep the order whole. Altair did what he thought best and his results bear that out.

3. Uhh The Crusades had professional armies. Altair fought Saladin's army then fought through the Crusader army. Then he fought dozens of Templars lead bt Robert de Sable alone and won. That's an impressive assasination and better than ANYTHING Ezio has done. That's on top of not getting hit. If you're saying that Ezio is better then you need to provide feats that at least rival that.

1. Can I have the source to that fact please. Also does it say why Altair is able to heal his "Synchronization" with medicine?

2. I need a citation for that too. I'm not trying to be annoying by any means, but why would a civil war break out? Why wouldn't a civ war break out if Ezio killed Rodrigo?

3. Altair fought Saracen's and Crusaders of lower ranking in that final battle to Robert de Sable. When he reached de Sable, he fought much more experienced Knights and Robert himself. Ezio fought Byzantine, Ottoman and Swiss soldiers who would slaughter Saracen's easy. He managed to remain flawless in his fight with 4 Papal soldiers, who would tear Saracen's up because of their versatility.

@Pyrogram:

1. What has Al Mualim done? That makes him a better fighter than Mario? Mario trained his entire life and earned the right for his spot as the head of the Italian assassin's. Show me what Al Mualim does?

2. Purely you're opinion. You have no solid proof of how Altair was trained and who the masters were. You're just making things up now. If not, link me.

3. Altair lost his touch at 62. He fled Masyaf to study the Apple for 20 years straight, came back at 82 an old man and reclaimed his title. Nothing states he was training himself at all. If not, link me.

4. Altair was an old man at 82! He could barely walk. How are you even saying he could defeat countless assassin's?

5. You still have yet to prove Altair was killing 30+ templars a mission. Just because you fought your way out of a mission isn't canon. I could do that with Ezio all day, what does that mean? Exactly.

6. I have a site that shows how many total main Templars each Assassin has killed, in their entire life. Altair = 28. Ezio = 38. You're indenial man.

7. Ezio trained his entire life straight as well.

8. Atair wasn't trained by an army of assassin's. link me, don't guess.

9. Just because Altair was bought up in one place, downgrades Ezio's fighting ability? Wow. So I guess Sam Fisher has the drop on Batman then right? Since Sam trained in third echelon and Batman travelled the world learning different techniques. No.

10. Debating with you is pointless. You have no proof of Altair's training. His trainer has no feats as far as I know. Altair never killed 30+ templars a mission. Ezio killed an overall total of 38 main templars in the shorter life he lived where Altair killed 28 total and the dude lived until 92. Thats the legend Altair was. Killed 28 Templars from when he was born into the order until when he died. In the 48 years Ezio was in the Order he killed 38. Thats all I have to say to you, unless you link me a couple sites.

@Epicbeast3000 said:

Altair wins because he is just a far greater assasin. He has never been hit by a sword, thats how good he is at sword fighting. As for assasino skills, He hunted 5 templar grand masters in just 3 months. It took Ezio 25 years to find and kill a single templar grand master. Altair also mastered the apple of eden at the age of 26 something which Ezio could never do. Connor is far from Altair standerds. The dude had trouble with Haythem. Altair again has never had trouble with any one, not even Armand Bouchart or bouchard. Armand slapped away Maria and another high level Templar Captain like they were nothing in bloodlines. Altair also built the Altair's armour which was far beyond its time. The armour is literally unbreakable. In the end of the day, Altair is just much much more strategically smart, skilled and knowledgable than Ezio and Connor. Altair has made a legacy and is renowned to be one of the greatest assasins of all time.

Connor had trouble with haytham when he was weakened cause he was shot at by cannon, and beat him anyway. IMO it all depends on their timeline. Connor and Ezio have guns and other weaponry far more advanced then Altairs. Connor is very skilled but is not as experienced as Altair or Ezio, however his gear should make up for all of that lost experience. However it all comes down to Ezio and Altair in the end, and IMO ezio wins because he is as skilled and as experienced as Altair but to add to that he has more advanced weaponry.

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@MonsterStomp: Altair kills far more than 28 templars, that is just stupid. Desmond had to freaking restart the animus because he kept getting hit as Altair and as I have said a billion times, Altair has never been touched by a sword. Thats how good he was sword fighting. Heck when Altair ws 90 he killed more than 38 templars.

You're indenial. Don't want to accept facts for facts.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassins

Scroll down to the known victims and count them up yourself. Most of the victims were Templars. If not, count up the actual Templars and Ezio would still prevail. Altair stopped fighting at 62 since he was exiled for 20 years, came back at 82 and dedicated the rest of his life to preserving the order. I don't know why people are saying he fought all that time, when he clearly stopped at 62 to study the Apple.

@MonsterStomp said:

1. Alright. The assassin's he fought were featless. If they were really as skilled as Altair, the Mongolian army wouldn't have overthrown their guild.

2. Fair enough. Lets say for arguments sake that Altair didn't use the Apple to prolong his life, dispite him harvesting in the Apples temptations. Doesn't really matter how long Altair lived. Ezio still killed more main templars in the shorter life he lived.

3. Like I keep saying. Actually you said it as well. Ezio was trained in a broken up order. All resources were depleted. Rodrigo had way more connections than Al Mualim. Making him harder to reach. Ezio had to wait the Templars to slip up. There were times when Ezio had to act fast, like killing Carlo, he did that after an entire days preparation. Altair killed 10 Templars in 3 months. Cool. Altair killed 28 total in his lifetime. Ezio killed 38 in his lifetime. Argument over.

4. Ezio failed one assassination opportunity. Rodrigo.

Ezio has his legacy. He basically liberated entire Europe. His Assassin's led the order 500 years after his death. Ezio also has a statue in the modern age as well. And was responsable for training Desmond Miles. Fact.

1. It doesn't matter if they were featless or not. They were still trained assassins, meaning superior humans in fighting abilities, since birth and there were many of them against Altair who was 63 years old and his older son as well. And Altair STILL fought them off and escaped at age 63. What was Ezio doing at age 63? dying? Altair at age 63 fighting trained killers off and escaping. Fact as to why hes a better assassin than Ezio who gave up at age 53.

2 and 3. Wrong. Altair killed 28 main Templars while he was being part time assassin. Altair pretty much stopped being a full time assassin after Al-Mualims death meaning age 26. After that he was part time assassins and part time studying the apple. Eventually around age 64 or so he devoted full time to the apple and designing weapons and armor. Ezio on the other hand killed 38 Templars while being a full time assassin. That's a big fail to me. On a complete time scale Ezio spends 36 years to kill 38 Templars (from age 17 till age 52 ish) while Altair was a full time master assassin from age 24 - 26. And then a part time assassin, not really looking to kill Templars but studying the apple and still manages to kill 28 main Templars. so really the time period for Altair would be 26-24 = 2 years as a full time assassin compared to Ezios 36 years being a full time assassin. Lets add in Altair's part time work as a killer (other half of the time goes towards apple study) till he was age 63 (From age 63-82 he's full time apple studying but that's doesn't matter in this math). That's 37 years of being part time assassin and killing the rest of the Templars on his count. So in the end Ezio had more time overall towards being a full time killer and he only killed 38? While Altair's spends 3 months and kills 10 out of his 28? Lets just say that the apple never existed, and Altair never devoted the 50 years of his life towards studying the apple and rather was a straight killer till age 63 (since he was still able to fight till then). According to math, Altair's 28 Templars would be more than triple. (the number could be well into its hundreds seeing as he killed 10 Templars in a mere 3 months). So if I really want to do the math then from age 24 till age 63 while he was still a capable fighter would be 37 years as a master assassin. there are 444 months in 37 years. And since Altair averages 10 Templar kills per 3 months, if you divide 444 by 3 you end up with 148 Templars killed by Altair IF he was a full time assassin like Ezio was. But Altair wasn't, he chose to do bigger and better things and while he attended to all the priorities such as family (which ezio didn't really have as an assassin), and mastering the apple, oh and killing a total of 28 Templars as a side job.

Conclusion:

Ezio- full time hard worker for 37 years kills 38 Templars.

Altair- kills 10 Templars in 3 months. 18 more as a part time assassin.

Altair is a well rounded individual in his lifetime and has a higher ratio of Templar kill per UNIT time.

Simple arithmetic. Proves Altair is a better assassin, not only does he accomplish his work, he does it fast.

4. Altair never failed. Ezio did. Hence Altair's better. Argument over.

Ezio trained Desmond sure but who did Ezio learn almost everything from? Altair. Codex pages, weaponry, wisdom and knowledge. All from Altair. Desmond trained from Altair in AC1 and he trained from Ezio in the next three games, which means he also learned from Altair in those three games since Ezio indirectly learned from Altair. Fact.

Altair is the better Assassin, better leader, bigger legend, lived for the creed, born an assassin and died an assassin. Ezio started at age 17 and gave up and quit at age 52/53. Fact.

@MonsterStomp said:

1. Can I have the source to that fact please. Also does it say why Altair is able to heal his "Synchronization" with medicine?

2. I need a citation for that too. I'm not trying to be annoying by any means, but why would a civil war break out? Why wouldn't a civ war break out if Ezio killed Rodrigo?

3. Altair fought Saracen's and Crusaders of lower ranking in that final battle to Robert de Sable. When he reached de Sable, he fought much more experienced Knights and Robert himself. Ezio fought Byzantine, Ottoman and Swiss soldiers who would slaughter Saracen's easy. He managed to remain flawless in his fight with 4 Papal soldiers, who would tear Saracen's up because of their versatility.

1. What are you asking? The 100% sync requirement for Mentor's Wake flat out states that Altair's health bar is a sync bar. Moreover since Altair was in fact always at full health healing any damage you mistakenly took in the memory will in fact sync you closer to the actual memory. If you want more proof then just read the sync destription yourself. Are you telling me that anytime the real Altair was hurt he lost sync bar with himself? That makes no sense. Moreover subject 16 even states that the entire point of Ezio's memories is to fully sync with Ezio so Desmond can wake up from his coma. That 100% requirement is undeniably for Ezio and NOT Altair.

2. First Altair points out that Abbas can't be held answerable to anyone because the Assassins only follow his command. Second, Maria states that if Altair cannot win over the Order by honorable means then the foundations of the Order will crumble. Finally when Darim tries to reason with the Assassins, Altair says that they have to escape first because they will not listen to reason citing that they were fed lies. The game emphasizes how the Order was taken over by Abbas. The chapter is even called ''New Regime'' so what more do you want?

3. Richard the Lion Heart was renowned as a warrior and fought in the thick of battle. Where he was there was elite warriors. Prior to Arsuf, the battle that Altair killed Robert, Saladin had an auro of an invincible warrior on the battle field and had what was considered an unbeatable army. By contrast Ezio's battle, the Siege of Vianna, was a minor battle of neglibable consequence consisting of small armies of no renown.

Some other points:

1. Ezio failed to kill Rodrigo 3 times IIRC. He also let Cesare escape once or twice. In Revelations, in most of the first Master Assassin missions, he allows his targets to escape.

2. Altair also turned the tide of battle at Masayuf and literally saved the Assassin Order. Abbas even said it was impossible tofor Altair to succeed. In the memory the Assassins were outnumbered 5 to one or something like that against elite Templar Knights. We know from the memory that Altair killed all the knights and saved all the civilians too. That's another feat Ezio cannot match.

3. Assassins were trained since birth. Being trained from birth is a feat itself. Any failures just die off too so there's that. This was also considered the golden age of the Templar which was ended by Altair's regime so yeah I'd say the Assassins must have been pretty skillful. Then there's the Mongols whose feats speak for themselves.

@kickazz786 said:

1. It doesn't matter if they were featless or not. They were still trained assassins, meaning superior humans in fighting abilities, since birth and there were many of them against Altair who was 63 years old and his older son as well. And Altair STILL fought them off and escaped at age 63. What was Ezio doing at age 63? dying? Altair at age 63 fighting trained killers off and escaping. Fact as to why hes a better assassin than Ezio who gave up at age 53.

2 and 3. Wrong. Altair killed 28 main Templars while he was being part time assassin. Altair pretty much stopped being a full time assassin after Al-Mualims death meaning age 26. After that he was part time assassins and part time studying the apple. Eventually around age 64 or so he devoted full time to the apple and designing weapons and armor. Ezio on the other hand killed 38 Templars while being a full time assassin. That's a big fail to me. On a complete time scale Ezio spends 36 years to kill 38 Templars (from age 17 till age 52 ish) while Altair was a full time master assassin from age 24 - 26. And then a part time assassin, not really looking to kill Templars but studying the apple and still manages to kill 28 main Templars. so really the time period for Altair would be 26-24 = 2 years as a full time assassin compared to Ezios 36 years being a full time assassin. Lets add in Altair's part time work as a killer (other half of the time goes towards apple study) till he was age 63 (From age 63-82 he's full time apple studying but that's doesn't matter in this math). That's 37 years of being part time assassin and killing the rest of the Templars on his count. So in the end Ezio had more time overall towards being a full time killer and he only killed 38? While Altair's spends 3 months and kills 10 out of his 28? Lets just say that the apple never existed, and Altair never devoted the 50 years of his life towards studying the apple and rather was a straight killer till age 53 (age that Ezio retired). According to math, Altair's 28 Templars would be more than triple. (the number could be well into its hundreds seeing as he killed 10 Templars in a mere 3 months). So if I really want to do the math then from age 24 till age 63 while he was still a capable fighter would be 37 years as a master assassin. there are 444 months in 37 years. And since Altair averages 10 Templar kills per 3 months, if you divide 444 by 3 you end up with 148 Templars killed by Altair IF he was a full time assassin like Ezio was. But Altair wasn't, he chose to do bigger and better things and while he attended to all the priorities such as family (which ezio didn't really have as an assassin), and mastering the apple, oh and killing a total of 28 Templars as a side job.

Conclusion:

Ezio- full time hard worker for 37 years kills 38 Templars.

Altair- kills 10 Templars in 3 months. 18 more as a part time assassin.

Altair is a well rounded individual in his lifetime and has a higher ratio of Templar kill per time.

Simple arithmetic.

4. Altair never failed. Ezio did. Hence Altair's better. Argument over.

Ezio trained Desmond sure but who did Ezio learn almost everything from? Altair. Codex pages, weaponry, wisdom and knowledge. All from Altair. Desmond trained from Altair in AC1 and he trained from Ezio in the next three games, which means he also learned from Altair in those three games since Ezio indirectly learned from Altair. Fact.

Altair is the better Assassin, better leader, bigger legend, lived for the creed, born an assassin and died an assassin. Ezio started at age 17 and gave up and quit at age 52/53. Fact.

1. Trained assassin's? Okay, I'll play along. Ezio hunted trained assassin's hired by the Templar Order. He orchestrated the contract with a Den leader. Though Ezio did kill a few of the highly skilled opponents. Cyril of Rhodes, Mirela Djuric, Odai Dunqas, and Lysistrata.

2. No. Altair killed 28 total main Templars in his lifetime. You can't be a part time assassin when you're born into the order, who does that? Altair dedicated his entire life to the order. You just can't except the fact that Ezio killed more Templars than Altair. I've read the entire page on Altair in assassin's creed wiki. Nothing suggests Altair decided, "I'm 26, I might as well be a part time assassin now". You don't even know the guy you're debating for. Read his page. Whats with the useless math? You're making unecessary guesses.

Fact. Altair killed 10 Templars in 3 months. Now lets do some serious math here. By the time Altair hit 26 he basically finished killing 10 Templars. He died at 92. 92 - 26 = 66. 66 years. Now lets take away the 20 years he dedicated to studying the Apple. 66 - 20 = 46. 46 years hunting 18 more Templar's. And you're saying Ezio was a noob for hunting 19 Templars in 22 years? Not to mention, Ezio killed Carlo Grimaldi after a days prep.

Ezio only left the order because he fulfilled his purpose. Don't forget, Ezio only joined for revenge, he wasn't born into the order like Altair was. He had every right to leave.

Oh and Ezio didn't learn everything from Altair. Ezio merely looked up to Altair. The codex pages were entries of Altair's life. The map behind the codex pages was the knowledge Altair gained from the Apple. Ezio granted his own wisdom and knowledge because he never used an Apple to gain it like Altair did. Weapons were also from the Apple, along with his armor. Altair never trained Desmond. Lucy said in AC2 that Desmond could synchronize better with Ezio after Desmond asked "Why not just go back to Altair?". And Altair never trained Ezio.

4. Ofcourse Altair failed. He broke the 3 tenets of the Creed. Ezio broke 1 at most.

@MisterGuyMan said:

1. What are you asking? The 100% sync requirement for Mentor's Wake flat out states that Altair's health bar is a sync bar. Moreover since Altair was in fact always at full health healing any damage you mistakenly took in the memory will in fact sync you closer to the actual memory. If you want more proof then just read the sync destription yourself. Are you telling me that anytime the real Altair was hurt he lost sync bar with himself? That makes no sense. Moreover subject 16 even states that the entire point of Ezio's memories is to fully sync with Ezio so Desmond can wake up from his coma. That 100% requirement is undeniably for Ezio and NOT Altair.

2. First Altair points out that Abbas can't be held answerable to anyone because the Assassins only follow his command. Second, Maria states that if Altair cannot win over the Order by honorable means then the foundations of the Order will crumble. Finally when Darim tries to reason with the Assassins, Altair says that they have to escape first because they will not listen to reason citing that they were fed lies. The game emphasizes how the Order was taken over by Abbas. The chapter is even called ''New Regime'' so what more do you want?

3. Richard the Lion Heart was renowned as a warrior and fought in the thick of battle. Where he was there was elite warriors. Prior to Arsuf, the battle that Altair killed Robert, Saladin had an auro of an invincible warrior on the battle field and had what was considered an unbeatable army. By contrast Ezio's battle, the Siege of Vianna, was a minor battle of neglibable consequence consisting of small armies of no renown.

Some other points:

1. Ezio failed to kill Rodrigo 3 times IIRC. He also let Cesare escape once or twice. In Revelations, in most of the first Master Assassin missions, he allows his targets to escape.

2. Altair also turned the tide of battle at Masayuf and literally saved the Assassin Order. Abbas even said it was impossible tofor Altair to succeed. In the memory the Assassins were outnumbered 5 to one or something like that against elite Templar Knights. We know from the memory that Altair killed all the knights and saved all the civilians too. That's another feat Ezio cannot match.

3. Assassins were trained since birth. Being trained from birth is a feat itself. Any failures just die off too so there's that. This was also considered the golden age of the Templar which was ended by Altair's regime so yeah I'd say the Assassins must have been pretty skillful. Then there's the Mongols whose feats speak for themselves.

1. Why was the 100% synch for Ezio? Why not Desmond? Just curious, since Desmond was the one looking to find a synch Nexus and he had to find the link between Altair and Ezio.

2. I accept. So why wouldn't civil war break out if Ezio had killed Rodrigo in the Vatican? He was basically alone in Rome, which had been corrupted by Templars and the people were against Ezio as soon as he fled the Vatican.

3. Altair fought Saracen's and Christian troops during Arsuf. I know they were low ranking because of the ingame skill they had in contrast between actual Templar Knights. Saracen's are nothing compared to the Byzantines and Ezio, although caught off guard, managed to fight several of them while remaining unarmed and unharmed for the duration of it. He fought through Manuels armory unharmed. Ezio fought 4 Papal guards unharmed. All of which are above Saracen's.

Defense points to counter your other points:

1. I don't count the Vatican fight a failed assassination. Like I said, he had other intensions. If you're basing it on the physical appearance where all assassination attempts look like he drives his blade into his victim its misunderstood. Ezio had Micheletto Corella by his life in the same stance he had Rodrigo, they weren't attempts. At least accept that much.

Most of the Master Assassin missions were done, strickly for Ezio to train his assassin's. Usually on the second attempt, if the assassin didn't succeed, Ezio got them, making it look simple second time round.

2. Where does it say Altair kills all the knights? He was able to save the civilians, but that was the synch completion task. Not kill the templar knights. And who's to say Ezio couldn't take Templar Knights? Jannisaries are far more skilled and Ezio can handle them.

3. Yeah, they managed to hold off Mongol attempts but eventually failed. Why did the skill level drop?

Also Ezio set the golden age for the next 500 years.

@MonsterStomp said:

@Pyrogram:

1. What has Al Mualim done? That makes him a better fighter than Mario? Mario trained his entire life and earned the right for his spot as the head of the Italian assassin's. Show me what Al Mualim does?

What has he done? casually become the grand master assassin out of thousands of assassins .. Thats not a good feat at all. You know, you just become a grand master for doing nothing you know.

2. Purely you're opinion. You have no solid proof of how Altair was trained and who the masters were. You're just making things up now. If not, link me. No, its called common sense, how does he become a top rank assassin? He defeated more templars in a few months than Ezio did in years for example.

3. Altair lost his touch at 62. He fled Masyaf to study the Apple for 20 years straight, came back at 82 an old man and reclaimed his title. Nothing states he was training himself at all. If not, link me. He lost touch at 62 but carried on at 82, yer your logic is great. We all know you lose muscle memory and suddenly re-gain it 20 year's later for no reason. LOL

4. Altair was an old man at 82! He could barely walk. How are you even saying he could defeat countless assassin's?

Have you played revelations?

5. You still have yet to prove Altair was killing 30+ templars a mission. Just because you fought your way out of a mission isn't canon. I could do that with Ezio all day, what does that mean? Exactly.

It is cannon when the game tells you to kill them and you don't lose sync.

6. I have a site that shows how many total main Templars each Assassin has killed, in their entire life. Altair = 28. Ezio = 38. You're indenial man. Show me this site... And its obvious why, Altair had 1 game, Ezio had 3, So Ezio is pretty crap to only have 10 more.

7. Ezio trained his entire life straight as well. Not like Altair who's life WAS being an assassin. Ezio did NOT train his entire life, he barely did any assassining in revelations.

8. Atair wasn't trained by an army of assassin's. link me, don't guess. Its just common sense...Al Mulim did not train him 24/7, he obviously had other teachers.

9. Just because Altair was bought up in one place, downgrades Ezio's fighting ability? Wow. So I guess Sam Fisher has the drop on Batman then right? Since Sam trained in third echelon and Batman travelled the world learning different techniques. No. No, but when Altair had like 30 more years of training, training since birth, constant missions.. And ezio had? A few crappy trainers like Mario calling themselves master's without earning that title.

10. Debating with you is pointless. You have no proof of Altair's training. His trainer has no feats as far as I know.

Al-mulim had no feats, ok. A grand master becomes a grand master without doing anything. This is a wierd debate.

Ezio killed an overall total of 38 main templars in the shorter life he lived where Altair killed 28 total and the dude lived until 92. Ezio had 3 games, Altair had 1 game, killing 10 more is pretty shit in comparison. If Altair had 3 games he would have killed at-least 84 if he killed 28 a game.

Thats the legend Altair was. Killed 28 Templars from when he was born into the order until when he died. Recorded, he obviously killed more to earn his title before losing it.

In the 48 years Ezio was in the Order he killed 38. Thats all I have to say to you, unless you link me a couple sites.

Again, he had 3 games. Why would I link you to a site, have you not played the game to recall from memory?

1 last thing, Ezio had many trainers, but not many GOOD trainers, I like the way he had so many masters so to say, how easy in them days did you become a master? It degrades the title if you have more than 2 in my view.

@MonsterStomp said:

@Pyrogram:

1. What has Al Mualim done? That makes him a better fighter than Mario? Mario trained his entire life and earned the right for his spot as the head of the Italian assassin's. Show me what Al Mualim does?

2. Purely you're opinion. You have no solid proof of how Altair was trained and who the masters were. You're just making things up now. If not, link me.

3. Altair lost his touch at 62. He fled Masyaf to study the Apple for 20 years straight, came back at 82 an old man and reclaimed his title. Nothing states he was training himself at all. If not, link me.

4. Altair was an old man at 82! He could barely walk. How are you even saying he could defeat countless assassin's?

5. You still have yet to prove Altair was killing 30+ templars a mission. Just because you fought your way out of a mission isn't canon. I could do that with Ezio all day, what does that mean? Exactly.

6. I have a site that shows how many total main Templars each Assassin has killed, in their entire life. Altair = 28. Ezio = 38. You're indenial man.

7. Ezio trained his entire life straight as well.

8. Atair wasn't trained by an army of assassin's. link me, don't guess.

9. Just because Altair was bought up in one place, downgrades Ezio's fighting ability? Wow. So I guess Sam Fisher has the drop on Batman then right? Since Sam trained in third echelon and Batman travelled the world learning different techniques. No.

10. Debating with you is pointless. You have no proof of Altair's training. His trainer has no feats as far as I know. Altair never killed 30+ templars a mission. Ezio killed an overall total of 38 main templars in the shorter life he lived where Altair killed 28 total and the dude lived until 92. Thats the legend Altair was. Killed 28 Templars from when he was born into the order until when he died. In the 48 years Ezio was in the Order he killed 38. Thats all I have to say to you, unless you link me a couple sites.

Also

Lets think about Altair's kills.

9 Targets + 1 more

Informant assassinations - it's between 6 and 9, maybe up to 12.

Crusaders at Masyaf at the beginning - between 5-10 before being recalled to the castle.

Crusaders and Muslims at Arsuf - between 40-50, an additional 8 during the fight with Robert

Thralls at Masyaf, up to a dozen.

Guards Harassing Citizens - minimum of four guards per citizen (average five, at most six not including nearby guards that wander into the fray) , minimum six citizens (average nine) per district, nine districts - 216 right there, bare minimum

Sixty Templars guarding treasure chests.

In less than six months - in fact, closer to three. That's upwards of 350 kills.

Those are CANON kills and not player done ( chosen at random, ) , you HAD to do those kills or not complete sync.

Some of those cannot be the same for Ezio as they are not for sync, they are just for player enjoyment.

@Pyrogram:

1. Al Mualim was merely a Mentor to the Levantine Assassin's. Mario was a Mentor to the Italian Assassin's and Mercanaries.

2. Yet. Altair only killed 28 main Templars whereas Ezio killed 38 main Templars. You don't use common sense without proving anything.

3. I'm sensing sarcasm. Ezio never fought at 82, get that through your head.

4. Yes I've played Revelations. Altair never fought countless assassin's at 82! Maybe disarmed a few but thats all. Ezio defeated mercanaries when he couldn't walk either.

5. It's not canon. Altair never kills 30+ Templars a mission. You talk like the city guards are Templars. Altair's plans mainly consist of infiltration and evading techniques. He barely fought until the end of the game.

6. You're basing the number of Templars each assassin's killed by how many games they've appeared? That is flawed when Altair died at 92. http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassins Scroll down to "Known Victims" and add them up yourself.

7. Don't use common sense.

8. Again. Why is Mario a crappy trainer? He earned his right at the lead of the Italian Assassin's before Ezio. Yusif was a Master Assassin, as well as Piri Ries. Look it up. Lorenzo de Medici and Niccoló set up contracts for Ezio as well and if you read those contracts, they contribute to the main storytell. Altair had 51 years of ongoing training from age 11 to 62. 11 is where Altair actually started and 62 is when he stopped his training. Ezio had 36 years of ongoing training. Starting at 17 and stopping at 53. Ezio accomplished much more in his years than Altair in his years.

9. Stop basing how many Templars each assassin has killed on the number of games they appeared. It doesn't work. Altair killed 28 main templars in his LIFE. From his birth into the order to death. So in 92 YEARS, Altair killed 28 Templars. In 65 YEARS, Ezio killed 38 Templars.

10. I counted 28 MAIN Templars, not side quest Templars. If you want to bring side quest feats in I'll happily contribute.

How skilled were Ezio's trainers?

• Mario Auditore was in charge of the Italian guild.
• Yusif was in control of the Turkish leader.
• Piri Ries was in charge of the Ottoman Brotherhood but also served Yusif with bombs.
• http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Assassin A site to show you how an assassin obtain the Master tittle.

@Pyrogram said:

Also

Lets think about Altair's kills.

9 Targets + 1 more

Informant assassinations - it's between 6 and 9, maybe up to 12.

Crusaders at Masyaf at the beginning - between 5-10 before being recalled to the castle.

Crusaders and Muslims at Arsuf - between 40-50, an additional 8 during the fight with Robert

Thralls at Masyaf, up to a dozen.

Guards Harassing Citizens - minimum of four guards per citizen (average five, at most six not including nearby guards that wander into the fray) , minimum six citizens (average nine) per district, nine districts - 216 right there, bare minimum

Sixty Templars guarding treasure chests.

In less than six months - in fact, closer to three. That's upwards of 350 kills.

Those are CANON kills and not player done ( chosen at random, ) , you HAD to do those kills or not complete sync.

Some of those cannot be the same for Ezio as they are not for sync, they are just for player enjoyment.

Don't bring this debate in. Its hard to calculate all of Ezio's kills correctly. And there were so many.

Ezio

@MonsterStomp: Dude, this is going nowhere, lets agree that they are both good and would have a hard fight and it will be down to luck who would win, they both have killed people as hard as the other, Ezio would win with advanced weapons if he has them though.

Ezio

@MonsterStomp said:

1. Why was the 100% synch for Ezio? Why not Desmond? Just curious, since Desmond was the one looking to find a synch Nexus and he had to find the link between Altair and Ezio.

2. I accept. So why wouldn't civil war break out if Ezio had killed Rodrigo in the Vatican? He was basically alone in Rome, which had been corrupted by Templars and the people were against Ezio as soon as he fled the Vatican.

3. Altair fought Saracen's and Christian troops during Arsuf. I know they were low ranking because of the ingame skill they had in contrast between actual Templar Knights. Saracen's are nothing compared to the Byzantines and Ezio, although caught off guard, managed to fight several of them while remaining unarmed and unharmed for the duration of it. He fought through Manuels armory unharmed. Ezio fought 4 Papal guards unharmed. All of which are above Saracen's.

Defense points to counter your other points:

1. I don't count the Vatican fight a failed assassination. Like I said, he had other intensions. If you're basing it on the physical appearance where all assassination attempts look like he drives his blade into his victim its misunderstood. Ezio had Micheletto Corella by his life in the same stance he had Rodrigo, they weren't attempts. At least accept that much.

Most of the Master Assassin missions were done, strickly for Ezio to train his assassin's. Usually on the second attempt, if the assassin didn't succeed, Ezio got them, making it look simple second time round.

2. Where does it say Altair kills all the knights? He was able to save the civilians, but that was the synch completion task. Not kill the templar knights. And who's to say Ezio couldn't take Templar Knights? Jannisaries are far more skilled and Ezio can handle them.

3. Yeah, they managed to hold off Mongol attempts but eventually failed. Why did the skill level drop?

Also Ezio set the golden age for the next 500 years.

1. The 100% sync is for Desmond trying to sync up with Ezio's memories. The requirements like 'Do not lose more than 3 life' means Ezio took some damage so you can get that much and still 100% Likewise the requirement 'Do not lose 3 sync' means that Ezio lost some sync with Altair.

2. What does Ezio have to do with anything? You originally tried to make Altair look bad because he fled Masayuf. I'm pointing out that he did the right thing. Any comparison with Ezio isn't necessary

3. The difference between those memories is that both armies were actively trying to kill Altair and stealth was impossible. To get through the armory, Ezio started a riot for a distraction and some civilians died. Most other big engagements Ezio had help. In the ONLY one where he was alone, he took damage which means he is less skilled than Altair.

4. No, Ezio failed. Replay the memory and tell me how you get to the cutscene without either shotting him or air assassinating Rodrigo. Ezio even said "Requiscat de Pache" as he lifted his hidden blade to finish off Rodrigo. He was definitely TRYING to kill Rodrigo and he definitely FAILED to kill Rodrigo.

5. The only way to save the civilians is to kill all the knights. This is another large scale battle where Altair goes against impossible odds without taking damage. That's two for Altair where he evades damage in a huge scale and none for Ezio.

6. Where does it say ANYWHERE that Ezio set a golden age for ANYTHING? The game flat out states that the Templar golden age was the time of Altair in one of the hidden memories. I believe it's an unlockable multiplayer memory but it was said in the games. The entire point is that the Templar Order was its strongest and the Assassins were strong enough to end their golden age and fought theTemplars at their strongest. These are the same "featless" Assassins that Altair fought through.

7. Altair mentions that Masayuf was a mistake because it gave his enemies a target. Masayuf fell by design. Moreover the point was that Altair led the team that killed Ghanghis Khan who was one of the most protected men in history.

Do you concede that Ezio loses to Altair with the Apple? You haven't countered that point yet. Do you concede that Ezio's best feats fall short of Altair's best feats?

@MonsterStomp said:

@kickazz786 said:

1. Trained assassin's? Okay, I'll play along. Ezio hunted trained assassin's hired by the Templar Order. He orchestrated the contract with a Den leader. Though Ezio did kill a few of the highly skilled opponents. Cyril of Rhodes, Mirela Djuric, Odai Dunqas, and Lysistrata.

2. No. Altair killed 28 total main Templars in his lifetime. You can't be a part time assassin when you're born into the order, who does that? Altair dedicated his entire life to the order. You just can't except the fact that Ezio killed more Templars than Altair. I've read the entire page on Altair in assassin's creed wiki. Nothing suggests Altair decided, "I'm 26, I might as well be a part time assassin now". You don't even know the guy you're debating for. Read his page. Whats with the useless math? You're making unecessary guesses.

Fact. Altair killed 10 Templars in 3 months. Now lets do some serious math here. By the time Altair hit 26 he basically finished killing 10 Templars. He died at 92. 92 - 26 = 66. 66 years. Now lets take away the 20 years he dedicated to studying the Apple. 66 - 20 = 46. 46 years hunting 18 more Templar's. And you're saying Ezio was a noob for hunting 19 Templars in 22 years? Not to mention, Ezio killed Carlo Grimaldi after a days prep.

Ezio only left the order because he fulfilled his purpose. Don't forget, Ezio only joined for revenge, he wasn't born into the order like Altair was. He had every right to leave.

Oh and Ezio didn't learn everything from Altair. Ezio merely looked up to Altair. The codex pages were entries of Altair's life. The map behind the codex pages was the knowledge Altair gained from the Apple. Ezio granted his own wisdom and knowledge because he never used an Apple to gain it like Altair did. Weapons were also from the Apple, along with his armor. Altair never trained Desmond. Lucy said in AC2 that Desmond could synchronize better with Ezio after Desmond asked "Why not just go back to Altair?". And Altair never trained Ezio.

4. Ofcourse Altair failed. He broke the 3 tenets of the Creed. Ezio broke 1 at most.

1. Your forgetting the point. Altair was 63 years old when he escaped Masyaf with his son while they were attacked by the assassins. Read before you post. Ezio was dying at age 63. Altair is better, he lasted longer, he could fight and still had his agility at an older age. Altair is simply better.

2.No. Don't try to take words such as "he dedicated his life to the order" and try to make an argument out of it. Your wrong. Altair dedicated his life for the BETTERMENT of the order. That doesn't mean he acted as an assassin killing people trying to kill Templars everyday of his life. His actions were far beyond that. He studies the Apple for most of his older life, and THAT is how he was dedicated to the order. Don't make invalid statements to defend Ezio, it doesn't work.

Also you have this crazy idea in your head and its almost childish that by killing more Templars apparently it makes them a better Assassin? Your acting as if its a RACE to kill more? Neither Altair nor Ezio were aware of how many each killed. You CANT compare whose better in terms of who killed MORE. Ezio lived his entire life trying to kill Templars. Altair on the other hand pretty much gave up trying to kill and moved on to study the apple. And like I said before which you still haven't responded to. Imagine if Altair's apple never existed and Altair was never trying to study it, what do you think would have happened? Altair's full focus would be on killing Templars instead of studying the apple. YOU need to get it through your head that Altair simply killed a bunch of Templars (18) while he was doing multiple things at once. He was a well rounded assassin, which makes him a BETTER assassin. Ezio on the other hand killed 38 templars while TRYING to killed Templars. He didn't spend his time with a family or with studying the apple. Your comparing apples and oranges and its hurting you in this argument. If you want to compare whose a better assassin don't compare who killed more because both had different lifestyles and dedications. Like I said, Altair ended up focusing more on the apple. If he hadn't his Templar killing number would have been more than 5 times what Ezio had. Why? Because as I said, Altair killed 10 Templars in 3 months, WITHOUT anyone's help, while Ezio killed 19 Templars in 22 years with almost EVERYONES help. Altair took ONLY MONTHS to kill his 10 targets. (If you don't know the difference between months and years I suggest going back to grade school). Ezio took YEARS, nearly 3 generations to kill 19 Templars AND he needed help. THAT is how you determine who is BETTER. Not by who has MORE kills. You do it by who did a better job of killing and how FAST they did it. Assassin's are supposed to be FAST, EVADERS. Altair was the master of evading and I just proved to you that he is fast at killing his targets. 3 MONTHS 10 TARGETS while trying to. Don't consider the rest of the 18 because he wasn't out on an expedition to kill them, he was half busy with the apple. Ezio was TRYING all his life.

Now with that said you cant compare Altairs older age to Ezio's older age in terms of killing the rest of their count because after age 26 Altair was pretty much working with the Apple, while Ezio continued to hunt and kill. And ill say it again, if Altair didn't have the apple to work with, he himself would have continued to be hunting as he used to at age 26. And if that's the case, his Templar kill count would be MUCH higher than 28.

I mean use your own common sense here. It takes Altair 3 months to kill 10 Templars, But a few generations to kill 18? How does that make sense when he's a born natural assassin? Obviously its because he wasn't focused on killing Templars and as the lore has it he was studying the apple. (end of AC revelations when you hear Maria's voice saying "what does that apple say Altair" means this happened before Altair was 63 years old), Seriously your argument is suggesting that somehow someone is an excellent bike rider and all of a sudden they forget to ride a bike? Your not making sense. You know as well as I do that someone who can kill 10 Templars in 3 months, can do it just as well in the prime of their life if they wanted to. Altair chose not to, he had no reason to keep going at it. He had a bigger things on his mind; The Apple. Now that's not to say he gave up on Templars entirely, he did both, and more he also maintained a family. Seems like in your head this is what's going on: "oh maybe Altair was really good up until age 26 then as soon as he turned 27 he forgot how to kill Templars efficiently." Use your common sense and the bike analogy. Seriously.

3. If Ezio had every right to leave that proves he wasn't a dedicated assassin. Which proves that Altair was more dedicated, which proves why he's a better assassin to the order. If I was a grand master assassin who would I rather want on my order? Ezio (someone who gave up and left?) or someone who stays dedicated his whole life? Yeah exactly. Oh and lets not forget, Ezio gave up as soon as he saw Altairs apple. He gave up like a baby. His quote "Another artifact? No, you will stay here, I have seen enough for one life...Desmond? I heard your name once Desmond, a long time ago... and now it lingers in my mind. I do not where you are or by what means you can hear me.. But I know you are listening.." Throws ALL his armor on the ground and weapon. He just gives up, he cant handle seeing another the apple (artifact).

You keep saying Altair used the Apple to gain this and that. Too bad everything Ezio had in terms of armor and weapons were because of the codex pages. So Ezio indirectly used the apple himself. Ezio didn't even design it himself he needed Leonardo Da Vinci's help. Atleast Altair designed it himself with the help of the apple. Your argument about Altair using that apple.. All it does is prove to me that Altair is epic for being able to utilize a powerful object to its full capacity while Ezio couldn't. It makes Ezio seem weak. And the fact that Ezio used Altairs designs shows he himself used the apple, indirectly.. Which is pathetic. I suggest you drop the argument about Altair using the apple because all it does it make Ezio look worse.

4. Altair didn't fail like Ezio did in killing his targets. Ezio failed against a fat old guy. That was an epic fail. Ezio lost the title (if he had one) when he failed at that point.

@MisterGuyMan said:

1. The 100% sync is for Desmond trying to sync up with Ezio's memories. The requirements like 'Do not lose more than 3 life' means Ezio took some damage so you can get that much and still 100% Likewise the requirement 'Do not lose 3 sync' means that Ezio lost some sync with Altair.

2. What does Ezio have to do with anything? You originally tried to make Altair look bad because he fled Masayuf. I'm pointing out that he did the right thing. Any comparison with Ezio isn't necessary

3. The difference between those memories is that both armies were actively trying to kill Altair and stealth was impossible. To get through the armory, Ezio started a riot for a distraction and some civilians died. Most other big engagements Ezio had help. In the ONLY one where he was alone, he took damage which means he is less skilled than Altair.

4. No, Ezio failed. Replay the memory and tell me how you get to the cutscene without either shotting him or air assassinating Rodrigo. Ezio even said "Requiscat de Pache" as he lifted his hidden blade to finish off Rodrigo. He was definitely TRYING to kill Rodrigo and he definitely FAILED to kill Rodrigo.

5. The only way to save the civilians is to kill all the knights. This is another large scale battle where Altair goes against impossible odds without taking damage. That's two for Altair where he evades damage in a huge scale and none for Ezio.

6. Where does it say ANYWHERE that Ezio set a golden age for ANYTHING? The game flat out states that the Templar golden age was the time of Altair in one of the hidden memories. I believe it's an unlockable multiplayer memory but it was said in the games. The entire point is that the Templar Order was its strongest and the Assassins were strong enough to end their golden age and fought theTemplars at their strongest. These are the same "featless" Assassins that Altair fought through.

7. Altair mentions that Masayuf was a mistake because it gave his enemies a target. Masayuf fell by design. Moreover the point was that Altair led the team that killed Ghanghis Khan who was one of the most protected men in history.

Do you concede that Ezio loses to Altair with the Apple? You haven't countered that point yet. Do you concede that Ezio's best feats fall short of Altair's best feats?

1. Yeah so Desmond is ultimately controlling Ezio, why isn't it he when he loses synch? Also still doesn't explain why you were able to heal synch bars with medicine. But I'll let that slip.

2. I was talking about the Decommissioned and Last of the Palaiologi where Ezio recieved no damage. Cutting down the Byzantine foes that go in his way. Stealth was also impossible, since the guards were protecting the armory. The point of blowing up the armory was to lure Manuel out, not distract a bunch of his guards. All the guards were trying to kill Ezio as well. Byzantine soldiers that are above Saracen's.

3. So? I could have shot Micheletto and in end Ezio's true intension wasn't to kill him. Okay, Ezio said "rest in peace" before actually driving his blade through him. I'll call PIS on Rodrigo's behalf. I doubt that they wanted you to fight Rodrigo so suddenly.

4. Those Templar Knights must have been of low ranking. I mean, they barely put up a fight. I'd expect them to be as skilled as Papal guards or Jannisaries.

5. Ezio's actions made something of a Golden Age in Europe and his Assassin's continued this legacy for the next 500 years. I doubt the height of Templar power was at its strongest back then. If so, based on what? In the beganing of AC2 all assassin's were in the dark and Templars had a strong hold on Europe. Ezio killed 10 more Templars than Altair did, furthermore proving the amount of resources Rodrigo had.

6. Khan was well fed in military. Altair worked with Darim, Maria and Qulan Gal. As they infiltrated the camp or Khans base of operations, Altair was wounded by a guard, saved by Qulan Gal. Qulan and Darim lured Khan out and both shot him as he tried to escape. This feat can be compared by Ezio's infiltration of Tarik's camp.

Finally. I will say that Altair can take Ezio with the Apple through the act of physical pain but not mental. Ezio resisted it in AC2. Though in contrast, when Altair used it, it was physical infliction upon his enemies. Ezio used his apple for mental uses. Using something is a completely different issue.

Ezio's feats like taking out countless Byzantines unharmed. Not to mention stopping the uprising of another Byzantine Dynasty by the death of Manuel. Ezio basically did all that by himself. He had to save an Ottoman spy from Shahkulu, and seeing as Tarik was responsable for sending the spies in, I'm betting they could handle themselves in combat, yet Shahkulu brutally murdered nearly all of the spies Tarik sent. Ezio took Shahkulu out as well.

@kickazz786 said:

1. Your forgetting the point. Altair was 63 years old when he escaped Masyaf with his son while they were attacked by the assassins. Read before you post. Ezio was dying at age 63. Altair is better, he lasted longer, he could fight and still had his agility at an older age. Altair is simply better.

2.No. Don't try to take words such as "he dedicated his life to the order" and try to make an argument out of it. Your wrong. Altair dedicated his life for the BETTERMENT of the order. That doesn't mean he acted as an assassin killing people trying to kill Templars everyday of his life. His actions were far beyond that. He studies the Apple for most of his older life, and THAT is how he was dedicated to the order. Don't make invalid statements to defend Ezio, it doesn't work.

Also you have this crazy idea in your head and its almost childish that by killing more Templars apparently it makes them a better Assassin? Your acting as if its a RACE to kill more? Neither Altair nor Ezio were aware of how many each killed. You CANT compare whose better in terms of who killed MORE. Ezio lived his entire life trying to kill Templars. Altair on the other hand pretty much gave up trying to kill and moved on to study the apple. And like I said before which you still haven't responded to. Imagine if Altair's apple never existed and Altair was never trying to study it, what do you think would have happened? Altair's full focus would be on killing Templars instead of studying the apple. YOU need to get it through your head that Altair simply killed a bunch of Templars (18) while he was doing multiple things at once. He was a well rounded assassin, which makes him a BETTER assassin. Ezio on the other hand killed 38 templars while TRYING to killed Templars. He didn't spend his time with a family or with studying the apple. Your comparing apples and oranges and its hurting you in this argument. If you want to compare whose a better assassin don't compare who killed more because both had different lifestyles and dedications. Like I said, Altair ended up focusing more on the apple. If he hadn't his Templar killing number would have been more than 5 times what Ezio had. Why? Because as I said, Altair killed 10 Templars in 3 months, WITHOUT anyone's help, while Ezio killed 19 Templars in 22 years with almost EVERYONES help. Altair took ONLY MONTHS to kill his 10 targets. (If you don't know the difference between months and years I suggest going back to grade school). Ezio took YEARS, nearly 3 generations to kill 19 Templars AND he needed help. THAT is how you determine who is BETTER. Not by who has MORE kills. You do it by who did a better job of killing and how FAST they did it. Assassin's are supposed to be FAST, EVADERS. Altair was the master of evading and I just proved to you that he is fast at killing his targets. 3 MONTHS 10 TARGETS while trying to. Don't consider the rest of the 18 because he wasn't out on an expedition to kill them, he was half busy with the apple. Ezio was TRYING all his life.

Now with that said you cant compare Altairs older age to Ezio's older age in terms of killing the rest of their count because after age 26 Altair was pretty much working with the Apple, while Ezio continued to hunt and kill. And ill say it again, if Altair didn't have the apple to work with, he himself would have continued to be hunting as he used to at age 26. And if that's the case, his Templar kill count would be MUCH higher than 28.

I mean use your own common sense here. It takes Altair 3 months to kill 10 Templars, But a few generations to kill 18? How does that make sense when he's a born natural assassin? Obviously its because he wasn't focused on killing Templars and as the lore has it he was studying the apple. (end of AC revelations when you hear Maria's voice saying "what does that apple say Altair" means this happened before Altair was 63 years old), Seriously your argument is suggesting that somehow someone is an excellent bike rider and all of a sudden they forget to ride a bike? Your not making sense. You know as well as I do that someone who can kill 10 Templars in 3 months, can do it just as well in the prime of their life if they wanted to. Altair chose not to, he had no reason to keep going at it. He had a bigger things on his mind; The Apple. Now that's not to say he gave up on Templars entirely, he did both, and more he also maintained a family. Seems like in your head this is what's going on: "oh maybe Altair was really good up until age 26 then as soon as he turned 27 he forgot how to kill Templars efficiently." Use your common sense and the bike analogy. Seriously.

3. If Ezio had every right to leave that proves he wasn't a dedicated assassin. Which proves that Altair was more dedicated, which proves why he's a better assassin to the order. If I was a grand master assassin who would I rather want on my order? Ezio (someone who gave up and left?) or someone who stays dedicated his whole life? Yeah exactly. Oh and lets not forget, Ezio gave up as soon as he saw Altairs apple. He gave up like a baby. His quote "Another artifact? No, you will stay here, I have seen enough for one life...Desmond? I heard your name once Desmond, a long time ago... and now it lingers in my mind. I do not where you are or by what means you can hear me.. But I know you are listening.." Throws ALL his armor on the ground and weapon. He just gives up, he cant handle seeing another the apple (artifact).

You keep saying Altair used the Apple to gain this and that. Too bad everything Ezio had in terms of armor and weapons were because of the codex pages. So Ezio indirectly used the apple himself. Ezio didn't even design it himself he needed Leonardo Da Vinci's help. Atleast Altair designed it himself with the help of the apple. Your argument about Altair using that apple.. All it does is prove to me that Altair is epic for being able to utilize a powerful object to its full capacity while Ezio couldn't. It makes Ezio seem weak. And the fact that Ezio used Altairs designs shows he himself used the apple, indirectly.. Which is pathetic. I suggest you drop the argument about Altair using the apple because all it does it make Ezio look worse.

4. Altair didn't fail like Ezio did in killing his targets. Ezio failed against a fat old guy. That was an epic fail. Ezio lost the title (if he had one) when he failed at that point.

1. Altair is better because he lasted longer? Are you forgetting Ezio stopped his training and therefore his abilities faded? I'm sure if he was still training he'd be just as good.

2. Altair did dedicated his life to the order. You were using words like "Altair chose to be part time assassin" which was way out of line. Altair was born into the order and died in the order. Everything he did was for the order. Don't change it to suit your argument.

Yeah Altair killed 10 Templars in 3 months. Ezio killed 19 templars in 22 years. Altair wasn't studying the apple at 26. He began his studies after being exiled, 62. I already did the math for you. You want to count speed? Okay Ezio kills Carlo Grimaldi in one day. What about Marco, in one night? Both instances preped one day each.

Are you kidding? Altair killed 28 total templars within 62 years. When he was 62 he didn't kill, he studied the apple. Altair born into the order until exile was 62 years. In 62 years Altair killed 28 Templars. Speed? Ezio join at 17 and left at 53. In the 36 years of his assassin years he killed 38 Templars. Speed. Ezio still wins. Altair never studies the Apple at 26, dont even put that in your head, he was way bussy dealing with Mongol's. You say Ezio was trying all his life in one point but then you say he quite the order at 53 in another. Make your mind up. Ezio killed more Templars in shorter time than Altair killed 28. You were the one that wanted to bring up the fast killing thing. Ezio dominates that as well.

You're saying Altair just threw in the towel with killing Templars? Makes Altair look weak TBH. He didn't throw in the towel, he was helping other places out with threats. Seriously, read up on Altair (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Alta%C3%AFr_Ibn-La'Ahad).

Refer to the bold writing; Not what I was thinking. Stop denying everything I say. I said Altair started to lose his touch at 62 because he was exiled.

3. You're making Ezio sound worse than it really was. Ezio wasn't born into the order, it was his choice to join. He fulfilled his purpose and said enough. He saw no point in continuing. He saved Europe, spoke to Desmond and on top of that, managed to prevent another Byzantine Dynasty.

Ezio didn't indirectly use the apple. He used Altair's amor that was created by the Apple. Only in AC2. In AC:B he used the Armor of Brutes. In AC:R he either used Isahk Pasha or Master Assassin armor. So what, Ezio didn't want to deal with the Apple? It was not his purpose. Not to mention, Altair's Apple was about to be uncovered by the Byzantines in Ezio's time. Ezio hid his apple until Desmond retrieved it in the 21st century.

Altair did fail with the first Robert de Sable attempt and he managed to break all 3 tenets while doing so and all that work failed. But Malik managed to retrieve the artifact dispite Altair's neglect. It was a total fail on Altair's part.

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@MonsterStomp: No you don't want to f*cking accept the facts. Ezio freaking died at the age of 62, it took him 25 years to track down rodrigo borgia. It took Altair f*cking 8 months to kill Robert de sable, Armand bouchart, Al maulim and tons more. Have you ever even played the games or did you just freaking the read the wiki.

You're asking me if I've played the game and accusing me of just relying on wiki, yet you know nothing. Ezio died at 65. It took him 36 years to track a kill 38 Templars. Thats taken into account from when he join (17) to when he resigned (53). Don't be so denial. I showed you the site of known victims, you counted them up yourself.

Well, if we're judging by gameplay then Connor wins. However if we are looking at the franchise as a whole, then Altair wins. He's THE assassin, an extremely skilled fighter and a master assassin at the age of 25.

@MonsterStomp said:

@kickazz786 said:

1. Your forgetting the point. Altair was 63 years old when he escaped Masyaf with his son while they were attacked by the assassins. Read before you post. Ezio was dying at age 63. Altair is better, he lasted longer, he could fight and still had his agility at an older age. Altair is simply better.

2.No. Don't try to take words such as "he dedicated his life to the order" and try to make an argument out of it. Your wrong. Altair dedicated his life for the BETTERMENT of the order. That doesn't mean he acted as an assassin killing people trying to kill Templars everyday of his life. His actions were far beyond that. He studies the Apple for most of his older life, and THAT is how he was dedicated to the order. Don't make invalid statements to defend Ezio, it doesn't work.

Also you have this crazy idea in your head and its almost childish that by killing more Templars apparently it makes them a better Assassin? Your acting as if its a RACE to kill more? Neither Altair nor Ezio were aware of how many each killed. You CANT compare whose better in terms of who killed MORE. Ezio lived his entire life trying to kill Templars. Altair on the other hand pretty much gave up trying to kill and moved on to study the apple. And like I said before which you still haven't responded to. Imagine if Altair's apple never existed and Altair was never trying to study it, what do you think would have happened? Altair's full focus would be on killing Templars instead of studying the apple. YOU need to get it through your head that Altair simply killed a bunch of Templars (18) while he was doing multiple things at once. He was a well rounded assassin, which makes him a BETTER assassin. Ezio on the other hand killed 38 templars while TRYING to killed Templars. He didn't spend his time with a family or with studying the apple. Your comparing apples and oranges and its hurting you in this argument. If you want to compare whose a better assassin don't compare who killed more because both had different lifestyles and dedications. Like I said, Altair ended up focusing more on the apple. If he hadn't his Templar killing number would have been more than 5 times what Ezio had. Why? Because as I said, Altair killed 10 Templars in 3 months, WITHOUT anyone's help, while Ezio killed 19 Templars in 22 years with almost EVERYONES help. Altair took ONLY MONTHS to kill his 10 targets. (If you don't know the difference between months and years I suggest going back to grade school). Ezio took YEARS, nearly 3 generations to kill 19 Templars AND he needed help. THAT is how you determine who is BETTER. Not by who has MORE kills. You do it by who did a better job of killing and how FAST they did it. Assassin's are supposed to be FAST, EVADERS. Altair was the master of evading and I just proved to you that he is fast at killing his targets. 3 MONTHS 10 TARGETS while trying to. Don't consider the rest of the 18 because he wasn't out on an expedition to kill them, he was half busy with the apple. Ezio was TRYING all his life.

Now with that said you cant compare Altairs older age to Ezio's older age in terms of killing the rest of their count because after age 26 Altair was pretty much working with the Apple, while Ezio continued to hunt and kill. And ill say it again, if Altair didn't have the apple to work with, he himself would have continued to be hunting as he used to at age 26. And if that's the case, his Templar kill count would be MUCH higher than 28.

I mean use your own common sense here. It takes Altair 3 months to kill 10 Templars, But a few generations to kill 18? How does that make sense when he's a born natural assassin? Obviously its because he wasn't focused on killing Templars and as the lore has it he was studying the apple. (end of AC revelations when you hear Maria's voice saying "what does that apple say Altair" means this happened before Altair was 63 years old), Seriously your argument is suggesting that somehow someone is an excellent bike rider and all of a sudden they forget to ride a bike? Your not making sense. You know as well as I do that someone who can kill 10 Templars in 3 months, can do it just as well in the prime of their life if they wanted to. Altair chose not to, he had no reason to keep going at it. He had a bigger things on his mind; The Apple. Now that's not to say he gave up on Templars entirely, he did both, and more he also maintained a family. Seems like in your head this is what's going on: "oh maybe Altair was really good up until age 26 then as soon as he turned 27 he forgot how to kill Templars efficiently." Use your common sense and the bike analogy. Seriously.

3. If Ezio had every right to leave that proves he wasn't a dedicated assassin. Which proves that Altair was more dedicated, which proves why he's a better assassin to the order. If I was a grand master assassin who would I rather want on my order? Ezio (someone who gave up and left?) or someone who stays dedicated his whole life? Yeah exactly. Oh and lets not forget, Ezio gave up as soon as he saw Altairs apple. He gave up like a baby. His quote "Another artifact? No, you will stay here, I have seen enough for one life...Desmond? I heard your name once Desmond, a long time ago... and now it lingers in my mind. I do not where you are or by what means you can hear me.. But I know you are listening.." Throws ALL his armor on the ground and weapon. He just gives up, he cant handle seeing another the apple (artifact).

You keep saying Altair used the Apple to gain this and that. Too bad everything Ezio had in terms of armor and weapons were because of the codex pages. So Ezio indirectly used the apple himself. Ezio didn't even design it himself he needed Leonardo Da Vinci's help. Atleast Altair designed it himself with the help of the apple. Your argument about Altair using that apple.. All it does is prove to me that Altair is epic for being able to utilize a powerful object to its full capacity while Ezio couldn't. It makes Ezio seem weak. And the fact that Ezio used Altairs designs shows he himself used the apple, indirectly.. Which is pathetic. I suggest you drop the argument about Altair using the apple because all it does it make Ezio look worse.

4. Altair didn't fail like Ezio did in killing his targets. Ezio failed against a fat old guy. That was an epic fail. Ezio lost the title (if he had one) when he failed at that point.

1. Altair is better because he lasted longer? Are you forgetting Ezio stopped his training and therefore his abilities faded? I'm sure if he was still training he'd be just as good.

2. Altair did dedicated his life to the order. You were using words like "Altair chose to be part time assassin" which was way out of line. Altair was born into the order and died in the order. Everything he did was for the order. Don't change it to suit your argument.

Yeah Altair killed 10 Templars in 3 months. Ezio killed 19 templars in 22 years. Altair wasn't studying the apple at 26. He began his studies after being exiled, 62. I already did the math for you. You want to count speed? Okay Ezio kills Carlo Grimaldi in one day. What about Marco, in one night? Both instances preped one day each.

Are you kidding? Altair killed 28 total templars within 62 years. When he was 62 he didn't kill, he studied the apple. Altair born into the order until exile was 62 years. In 62 years Altair killed 28 Templars. Speed? Ezio join at 17 and left at 53. In the 36 years of his assassin years he killed 38 Templars. Speed. Ezio still wins. Altair never studies the Apple at 26, dont even put that in your head, he was way bussy dealing with Mongol's. You say Ezio was trying all his life in one point but then you say he quite the order at 53 in another. Make your mind up. Ezio killed more Templars in shorter time than Altair killed 28. You were the one that wanted to bring up the fast killing thing. Ezio dominates that as well.

You're saying Altair just threw in the towel with killing Templars? Makes Altair look weak TBH. He didn't throw in the towel, he was helping other places out with threats. Seriously, read up on Altair (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Alta%C3%AFr_Ibn-La'Ahad).

Refer to the bold writing; Not what I was thinking. Stop denying everything I say. I said Altair started to lose his touch at 62 because he was exiled.

3. You're making Ezio sound worse than it really was. Ezio wasn't born into the order, it was his choice to join. He fulfilled his purpose and said enough. He saw no point in continuing. He saved Europe, spoke to Desmond and on top of that, managed to prevent another Byzantine Dynasty.

Ezio didn't indirectly use the apple. He used Altair's amor that was created by the Apple. Only in AC2. In AC:B he used the Armor of Brutes. In AC:R he either used Isahk Pasha or Master Assassin armor. So what, Ezio didn't want to deal with the Apple? It was not his purpose. Not to mention, Altair's Apple was about to be uncovered by the Byzantines in Ezio's time. Ezio hid his apple until Desmond retrieved it in the 21st century.

Altair did fail with the first Robert de Sable attempt and he managed to break all 3 tenets while doing so and all that work failed. But Malik managed to retrieve the artifact dispite Altair's neglect. It was a total fail on Altair's part.

1. Yup Altair is better because he could fight at an older age and Ezio expired. Altair has more stamina. Fought his way out of Masyaf at age 63. Ezio = dying at that age. And LOL. Look at you sticking up for Ezio and saying "im sure if he kept training he would be just as good" So its okay for Ezio to stop being an assassin and losing his touch but its not okay for Altair from killing 10 Templars in 3 months to studying the apple and killing only 18 more? You just proved how one sided your analysis is. Hence you failed at this point.

2. Wrong. Altair was part time Assassin. By that it means part time killer. He wasn't out and about willing to go and kill Templars at a certain point in his age, he was more into the apple and that's a fact. You can deny it but that's the truth. After age 26 Altair reduced his activities as a killer/assassin. He was part of the brotherhood and still an assassin however in a different light. He was gaining wisdom and knowledge while still killing Templars when it was needed. He traveled to far places and tried to spread the word of the creed and gain support. Married his wife and fathered two children. Ezio on the other hand did only one thing and that was hunt the Templars. You're never getting away with this, fact is fact don't try to sway the argument.

And yes Altair did study the apple after he killed Al-Mualim. He worked and kept the apple all his life. That's why Abbas executed his son and wanted the apple back. Only then Altair left for self-imposed exile and focused on the apple 100%.

Here's proof so you can finally shut it and maybe re-read about Altair.

In 1195, Altaïr and Maria married in Limassol, Cyprus, out of respect to the Cypriots for offering the island as a base to the Assassins. Among the guests of honor was Markos. Upon returning to Masyaf, their first sonDarimwas born. Around 1204, Altaïr personally began to promote the way of the Assassin Order in various cities and regions. However, this came to an end when he made an attempt to do so inConstantinopleas the Fourth Crusade was causing chaos among the population. In 1204, Altaïr traveled to the city in hopes of spreadingthe Creedto Europe.

By studying the Apple of Eden, Altaïr gained the knowledge to create a form of metal that was lighter and stronger than any other metal known until then. He created anarmor setfor himself but decided to erase the formula to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.

This was all in his 30s. Yeah that's right, you just completely got caught trying to impose false facts about Altair. How does it feel? Oh by the way what was Ezio doing in his 30s? Still trying to kill Borgia? LOL.

Ezio has 1 day to plan and kill Carlo? Guess what? Altair has minutes to plan and killed Robert Da Sable and his Templar Elites. Altair shows up to King Richard with the intent of preventing war and Richard says, "let god decide: you two fight now". That's speed. You still haven't accounted for Altair's 10 Templars in 3 months theory. Seems like your just trying to brush off every thing I've proved you wrong in. How does Altair go from killing 10 Templars in 3 months and only 18 till his 62? Does that make sense to you? Or the fact that he was busy doing bigger and better things while working as a killer at the same time make more sense. I just provided a paragraph that showed Altair's busy life.

And don't put words in my mouth and try to squeeze by kid. I never said Altair threw in the towel as an Assassin, I said that up until age 26 Altair was a full time killer. From 26 - 62 he was doing multiple things at once. 62-82 studying apple full time. 82-92 changing Masyaf and the new assassin ways while finishing his journals. Ezio didn't do any of that. All he did was hunt Templars and at age 50 traveled to Constantinople when he finally started expanding his wisdom.

And I'm going to repeat it again, don't try to make it seem as though someone is a better assassin by killing more Templars. that argument is flawed in its entirety. And if you do want to bring numbers in, then re-read information about Altair killing some non-Templars who were just as bad if not worse than main Templars.

Most of everything Ezio does is with the help of his friends and acquaintances. Most of what Altair does is with no ones help. Altair's the better assassin.

3. By demeaning Altair , its YOU whose making Ezio look bad. You say statements like "the apple helped Altair completely" "Altair didn't make any weapons himself, the apple practically handed to it to him". You failed to realize that Ezio uses Altair's models of weaponry and armor and by doing that he technically is using the apple's design indirectly thru Altair. It's YOU who makes Ezio seem like a wimp who has to gain armor and weapons through the apple indirectly. I'm not like you who makes statements and tries to demean the apple. The apple was the greatest tool and anyone who used it, whether Altair, Ezio, or Desmond, in my opinion is a strong, will powered, chosen human being. Just as Minerva and Juno have indicated. And technically, Altair was the best at using it to its full potential. Hence, Altair has the most durability.

4. That wasn't a fail. That was arrogance, and he didn't get beat up in any case. Altair was always a better fighter than Robert and he had no purpose in what he was doing in the beginning, he was an arrogant kid playing catch. Ezio had a purpose and he failed. Ezio got his butt handed to him by the old fart Borgia. That's a fail.

The biggest difference between you and everyone on this thread is that nobody here denies how good Ezio was. We all know Ezio did great things and was second to Altair. The problem with you is not only do you not understand Altair's feats as an assassin, you seem to be making up fan fiction about the facts. Ubisoft has clearly stated Altair as one of the greatest assassins to ever live. If you're going to say other wise, your making up fan fiction.

You say things such as :

"The apple gave Altair everything"

Speculation. The apple gave him MAJOR hints and ideas, Altair still had to make the designs for the armor himself.

"Altair just walked out of Masyaf"

Unlikely seeing as though he was attacking by more than 30 assassins.

"He's not a better assassin because he killed less Templars"

Killing more men makes someone a better killer? Or does skill and tactics?

-----

Everything you say is one sided, are weak statements with no proof whatsoever, and close-minded.

are people really still trying to make a case for ezio. The in game bio even said that Altair is one of the greatest fighters in assasin history and that he reached master assasin at 25 years old.

Altair takes this

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@MonsterStomp: No you don't want to f*cking accept the facts. Ezio freaking died at the age of 62, it took him 25 years to track down rodrigo borgia. It took Altair f*cking 8 months to kill Robert de sable, Armand bouchart, Al maulim and tons more. Have you ever even played the games or did you just freaking the read the wiki.

He's in denial at Altair's achievements and won't face the facts that Altair did bigger and better things than Ezio. Ezio needed Altair to be where he was in his legacy. Altair needed no one. Altair was the better assassin, needed almost no one's help. Ezio needed almost everyone's help on his way towards power.

@kickazz786 said:

1. Yup Altair is better because he could fight at an older age and Ezio expired. Altair has more stamina. Fought his way out of Masyaf at age 63. Ezio = dying at that age. And LOL. Look at you sticking up for Ezio and saying "im sure if he kept training he would be just as good" So its okay for Ezio to stop being an assassin and losing his touch but its not okay for Altair from killing 10 Templars in 3 months to studying the apple and killing only 18 more? You just proved how one sided your analysis is. Hence you failed at this point.

2. Wrong. Altair was part time Assassin. By that it means part time killer. He wasn't out and about willing to go and kill Templars at a certain point in his age, he was more into the apple and that's a fact. You can deny it but that's the truth. After age 26 Altair reduced his activities as a killer/assassin. He was part of the brotherhood and still an assassin however in a different light. He was gaining wisdom and knowledge while still killing Templars when it was needed. He traveled to far places and tried to spread the word of the creed and gain support. Married his wife and fathered two children. Ezio on the other hand did only one thing and that was hunt the Templars. You're never getting away with this, fact is fact don't try to sway the argument.

And yes Altair did study the apple after he killed Al-Mualim. He worked and kept the apple all his life. That's why Abbas executed his son and wanted the apple back. Only then Altair left for self-imposed exile and focused on the apple 100%.

Here's proof so you can finally shut it and maybe re-read about Altair.

In 1195, Altaïr and Maria married in Limassol, Cyprus, out of respect to the Cypriots for offering the island as a base to the Assassins. Among the guests of honor was Markos. Upon returning to Masyaf, their first sonDarimwas born. Around 1204, Altaïr personally began to promote the way of the Assassin Order in various cities and regions. However, this came to an end when he made an attempt to do so inConstantinopleas the Fourth Crusade was causing chaos among the population. In 1204, Altaïr traveled to the city in hopes of spreadingthe Creedto Europe.

By studying the Apple of Eden, Altaïr gained the knowledge to create a form of metal that was lighter and stronger than any other metal known until then. He created anarmor setfor himself but decided to erase the formula to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.

This was all in his 30s. Yeah that's right, you just completely got caught trying to impose false facts about Altair. How does it feel? Oh by the way what was Ezio doing in his 30s? Still trying to kill Borgia? LOL.

Ezio has 1 day to plan and kill Carlo? Guess what? Altair has minutes to plan and killed Robert Da Sable and his Templar Elites. Altair shows up to King Richard with the intent of preventing war and Richard says, "let god decide: you two fight now". That's speed. You still haven't accounted for Altair's 10 Templars in 3 months theory. Seems like your just trying to brush off every thing I've proved you wrong in. How does Altair go from killing 10 Templars in 3 months and only 18 till his 62? Does that make sense to you? Or the fact that he was busy doing bigger and better things while working as a killer at the same time make more sense. I just provided a paragraph that showed Altair's busy life.

And don't put words in my mouth and try to squeeze by kid. I never said Altair threw in the towel as an Assassin, I said that up until age 26 Altair was a full time killer. From 26 - 62 he was doing multiple things at once. 62-82 studying apple full time. 82-92 changing Masyaf and the new assassin ways while finishing his journals. Ezio didn't do any of that. All he did was hunt Templars and at age 50 traveled to Constantinople when he finally started expanding his wisdom.

And I'm going to repeat it again, don't try to make it seem as though someone is a better assassin by killing more Templars. that argument is flawed in its entirety. And if you do want to bring numbers in, then re-read information about Altair killing some non-Templars who were just as bad if not worse than main Templars.

Most of everything Ezio does is with the help of his friends and acquaintances. Most of what Altair does is with no ones help. Altair's the better assassin.

3. By demeaning Altair , its YOU whose making Ezio look bad. You say statements like "the apple helped Altair completely" "Altair didn't make any weapons himself, the apple practically handed to it to him". You failed to realize that Ezio uses Altair's models of weaponry and armor and by doing that he technically is using the apple's design indirectly thru Altair. It's YOU who makes Ezio seem like a wimp who has to gain armor and weapons through the apple indirectly. I'm not like you who makes statements and tries to demean the apple. The apple was the greatest tool and anyone who used it, whether Altair, Ezio, or Desmond, in my opinion is a strong, will powered, chosen human being. Just as Minerva and Juno have indicated. And technically, Altair was the best at using it to its full potential. Hence, Altair has the most durability.

4. That wasn't a fail. That was arrogance, and he didn't get beat up in any case. Altair was always a better fighter than Robert and he had no purpose in what he was doing in the beginning, he was an arrogant kid playing catch. Ezio had a purpose and he failed. Ezio got his butt handed to him by the old fart Borgia. That's a fail.

The biggest difference between you and everyone on this thread is that nobody here denies how good Ezio was. We all know Ezio did great things and was second to Altair. The problem with you is not only do you not understand Altair's feats as an assassin, you seem to be making up fan fiction about the facts. Ubisoft has clearly stated Altair as one of the greatest assassins to ever live. If you're going to say other wise, your making up fan fiction.

You say things such as :

"The apple gave Altair everything"

Speculation. The apple gave him MAJOR hints and ideas, Altair still had to make the designs for the armor himself.

"Altair just walked out of Masyaf"

Unlikely seeing as though he was attacking by more than 30 assassins.

"He's not a better assassin because he killed less Templars"

Killing more men makes someone a better killer? Or does skill and tactics?

-----

Everything you say is one sided, are weak statements with no proof whatsoever, and close-minded.

1. Your one to talk arn't you? You were making up unnecessary math to say Altair would have killed more Templars if he wasn't dealing with the Apple. Just like me saying Ezio would have been as good at 62 than Altair was if he kept up his training and didn't leave at 53.

2. There isn't such thing as a part time assassin. You're just making Altair look weak by saying that. Altair killed what he had to kill. Ezio killed what he had to kill. It just so happens there was more power and more Templars to kill in Ezio's time. I'll accept the fact that Altair was studying the Apple on and off as he was liberating Cyprus and changing the Order. Ezio was multitasking in Revelations too. He had to find the Masyaf seals and upon that he had to liberate Constantinople.

I'm not trying to say that the better assassin is the one who kills more Templar's. You said a true assassin is one who is fast and efficient at their jobs right? I merely pointed out the fact that Ezio killed more Templar's in a shorter time it took Altair to kill 28. Ezio was also bussy in his days, with all the assassination contracts, helping the thieves, mercanaries and coutesans, infiltrating Assassin Tombs, helping Leonado Di Vince etc. Ezio was doing more versatile work, Altair was liberating Cyprus and studying the Apple every now and then.

Ezio didn't simply get free help, he had to work for it.

3. You're saying Altair is great because he mastered the Apple? That's like me saying Ezio is great because he can physically speak to "Those Who Came Before". Ezio couldn't properly wield the Apple, but Altair couldn't speak to Gods. I think its a win win in that sense.

4. Altair did fail. He broke the 3 tenets of the Creed and on top of that, he got his butt handed to him by Robert de Sable. Then Altair goes to Al Mualim trying to defend himself, when Malik actually succeeded the mission.

Altair has two good feats. That's killing several Templar Knights and killing Robert de Sable unharmed and killing Al Mualim.

Altair's fight with a small army of Crusaders wasn't impressive honestly. Since historical evidence suggests that Crusaders were not well trained, and had nearly no dicipline. Even the Byzantines mentioned their uselessness and used that as a way to make a deal with Saladin.

Ezio's fight with Shahkulu was beyond anything Altair has done. Shahkulu was deemed invincible in combat according to historical evidence.

And I'll say it's perfectly fine for Ezio to have taken damage in his time. You can't exactly dodge bullets.

@MonsterStomp said:

@kickazz786 said:

1. Yup Altair is better because he could fight at an older age and Ezio expired. Altair has more stamina. Fought his way out of Masyaf at age 63. Ezio = dying at that age. And LOL. Look at you sticking up for Ezio and saying "im sure if he kept training he would be just as good" So its okay for Ezio to stop being an assassin and losing his touch but its not okay for Altair from killing 10 Templars in 3 months to studying the apple and killing only 18 more? You just proved how one sided your analysis is. Hence you failed at this point.

2. Wrong. Altair was part time Assassin. By that it means part time killer. He wasn't out and about willing to go and kill Templars at a certain point in his age, he was more into the apple and that's a fact. You can deny it but that's the truth. After age 26 Altair reduced his activities as a killer/assassin. He was part of the brotherhood and still an assassin however in a different light. He was gaining wisdom and knowledge while still killing Templars when it was needed. He traveled to far places and tried to spread the word of the creed and gain support. Married his wife and fathered two children. Ezio on the other hand did only one thing and that was hunt the Templars. You're never getting away with this, fact is fact don't try to sway the argument.

And yes Altair did study the apple after he killed Al-Mualim. He worked and kept the apple all his life. That's why Abbas executed his son and wanted the apple back. Only then Altair left for self-imposed exile and focused on the apple 100%.

Here's proof so you can finally shut it and maybe re-read about Altair.

In 1195, Altaïr and Maria married in Limassol, Cyprus, out of respect to the Cypriots for offering the island as a base to the Assassins. Among the guests of honor was Markos. Upon returning to Masyaf, their first sonDarimwas born. Around 1204, Altaïr personally began to promote the way of the Assassin Order in various cities and regions. However, this came to an end when he made an attempt to do so inConstantinopleas the Fourth Crusade was causing chaos among the population. In 1204, Altaïr traveled to the city in hopes of spreadingthe Creedto Europe.

By studying the Apple of Eden, Altaïr gained the knowledge to create a form of metal that was lighter and stronger than any other metal known until then. He created anarmor setfor himself but decided to erase the formula to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.

This was all in his 30s. Yeah that's right, you just completely got caught trying to impose false facts about Altair. How does it feel? Oh by the way what was Ezio doing in his 30s? Still trying to kill Borgia? LOL.

Ezio has 1 day to plan and kill Carlo? Guess what? Altair has minutes to plan and killed Robert Da Sable and his Templar Elites. Altair shows up to King Richard with the intent of preventing war and Richard says, "let god decide: you two fight now". That's speed. You still haven't accounted for Altair's 10 Templars in 3 months theory. Seems like your just trying to brush off every thing I've proved you wrong in. How does Altair go from killing 10 Templars in 3 months and only 18 till his 62? Does that make sense to you? Or the fact that he was busy doing bigger and better things while working as a killer at the same time make more sense. I just provided a paragraph that showed Altair's busy life.

And don't put words in my mouth and try to squeeze by kid. I never said Altair threw in the towel as an Assassin, I said that up until age 26 Altair was a full time killer. From 26 - 62 he was doing multiple things at once. 62-82 studying apple full time. 82-92 changing Masyaf and the new assassin ways while finishing his journals. Ezio didn't do any of that. All he did was hunt Templars and at age 50 traveled to Constantinople when he finally started expanding his wisdom.

And I'm going to repeat it again, don't try to make it seem as though someone is a better assassin by killing more Templars. that argument is flawed in its entirety. And if you do want to bring numbers in, then re-read information about Altair killing some non-Templars who were just as bad if not worse than main Templars.

Most of everything Ezio does is with the help of his friends and acquaintances. Most of what Altair does is with no ones help. Altair's the better assassin.

3. By demeaning Altair , its YOU whose making Ezio look bad. You say statements like "the apple helped Altair completely" "Altair didn't make any weapons himself, the apple practically handed to it to him". You failed to realize that Ezio uses Altair's models of weaponry and armor and by doing that he technically is using the apple's design indirectly thru Altair. It's YOU who makes Ezio seem like a wimp who has to gain armor and weapons through the apple indirectly. I'm not like you who makes statements and tries to demean the apple. The apple was the greatest tool and anyone who used it, whether Altair, Ezio, or Desmond, in my opinion is a strong, will powered, chosen human being. Just as Minerva and Juno have indicated. And technically, Altair was the best at using it to its full potential. Hence, Altair has the most durability.

4. That wasn't a fail. That was arrogance, and he didn't get beat up in any case. Altair was always a better fighter than Robert and he had no purpose in what he was doing in the beginning, he was an arrogant kid playing catch. Ezio had a purpose and he failed. Ezio got his butt handed to him by the old fart Borgia. That's a fail.

The biggest difference between you and everyone on this thread is that nobody here denies how good Ezio was. We all know Ezio did great things and was second to Altair. The problem with you is not only do you not understand Altair's feats as an assassin, you seem to be making up fan fiction about the facts. Ubisoft has clearly stated Altair as one of the greatest assassins to ever live. If you're going to say other wise, your making up fan fiction.

You say things such as :

"The apple gave Altair everything"

Speculation. The apple gave him MAJOR hints and ideas, Altair still had to make the designs for the armor himself.

"Altair just walked out of Masyaf"

Unlikely seeing as though he was attacking by more than 30 assassins.

"He's not a better assassin because he killed less Templars"

Killing more men makes someone a better killer? Or does skill and tactics?

-----

Everything you say is one sided, are weak statements with no proof whatsoever, and close-minded.

1. Your one to talk arn't you? You were making up unnecessary math to say Altair would have killed more Templars if he wasn't dealing with the Apple. Just like me saying Ezio would have been as good at 62 than Altair was if he kept up his training and didn't leave at 53.

2. There isn't such thing as a part time assassin. You're just making Altair look weak by saying that. Altair killed what he had to kill. Ezio killed what he had to kill. It just so happens there was more power and more Templars to kill in Ezio's time. I'll accept the fact that Altair was studying the Apple on and off as he was liberating Cyprus and changing the Order. Ezio was multitasking in Revelations too. He had to find the Masyaf seals and upon that he had to liberate Constantinople.

I'm not trying to say that the better assassin is the one who kills more Templar's. You said a true assassin is one who is fast and efficient at their jobs right? I merely pointed out the fact that Ezio killed more Templar's in a shorter time it took Altair to kill 28. Ezio was also bussy in his days, with all the assassination contracts, helping the thieves, mercanaries and coutesans, infiltrating Assassin Tombs, helping Leonado Di Vince etc. Ezio was doing more versatile work, Altair was liberating Cyprus and studying the Apple every now and then.

Ezio didn't simply get free help, he had to work for it.

3. You're saying Altair is great because he mastered the Apple? That's like me saying Ezio is great because he can physically speak to "Those Who Came Before". Ezio couldn't properly wield the Apple, but Altair couldn't speak to Gods. I think its a win win in that sense.

4. Altair did fail. He broke the 3 tenets of the Creed and on top of that, he got his butt handed to him by Robert de Sable. Then Altair goes to Al Mualim trying to defend himself, when Malik actually succeeded the mission.

Altair has two good feats. That's killing several Templar Knights and killing Robert de Sable unharmed and killing Al Mualim.

Altair's fight with a small army of Crusaders wasn't impressive honestly. Since historical evidence suggests that Crusaders were not well trained, and had nearly no dicipline. Even the Byzantines mentioned their uselessness and used that as a way to make a deal with Saladin.

Ezio's fight with Shahkulu was beyond anything Altair has done. Shahkulu was deemed invincible in combat according to historical evidence.

And I'll say it's perfectly fine for Ezio to have taken damage in his time. You can't exactly dodge bullets.

1. Ha I called you out on it and your trying to use my own argument against me? I used math not a blind speculation. There's a difference. Mine is backed by scientific calculations. Yours is a statement.

2. The "part time assassination" phrase was used to dumb it down for you. The fact of the matter is Altair had a family, the apple, travels throughout his middle age. Ezio didn't. Ezio traveled far at age 52 just before he retired. There's a huge difference. Understand that and then try to make an argument. I'm not making Altair look weak, I have said time and again that Altair killed 18 Templars, worked the apple, maintained a family and traveled around and about spreading the Creed. As I've posted before (maybe you can't read), Altair was a WELL-ROUNDED assassin (assassin by the way does not mean the same thing as a killer in my definition; I mean a "brotherhood member"). And good job accepting on being called out. Hopefully now you understand Altair was working the apple since he was 26 not since he was 62.

I'm going to quote you so others can see this:

" It just so happens there was more power and more Templars to kill in Ezio's time."

A. More power is a speculation. Robert Da Sable was a Grand Master Templar with a whole crusader army at his side.

B. Since according to what you just admitted (and yes I'm going to keep holding this to you every time you post now), Ezio had more Templars to kill, so your entire argument about Ezio killing 38 Templars vs. Altair killing 28 just backfired on you. Hence the number of Templars that an assassin kills indicates absolutely nothing about how good they are. Good job.

2. (Continued). "Ezio was multitasking in Revelations too. He had to find the Masyaf seals and upon that he had to liberate Constantinople."

A. Ezio needed Sophia's help.

B. Revelations was a timeline of 2 years. 2 YEARS. That's all he multitasked for?? Altair multitasked from age 26 - 62. HOLY CRAP!

All those things you mentioned about how Ezio helped Leonardo. Actually it was more like Leonardo doing more work for Ezio. Literally everything Ezio did in his life was through help one way or another. Leonardo, Mario, Sophia, and own sister! Everything. Altair did other work as well and more. Look at the wiki page; Altair designed, liberated, spread the Creed, took down Genghis Khan etc. Don't compare the amount of well-roundedness between the two seriously, there's no comparison in that AT ALL. Ubisoft has made it clear, Altair definitely did a lot more towards the Creed than Ezio did, heck even Ezio admitted it.

And your point about how Ezio killed more Templars in a shorter time than Altair is now officially invalid since you admitted that Ezio had more Templars to kill to begin with. Altair's time didn't have as many main Templars. (All according to you). Now lets do this (for the 100th time) according to me. 10 Templars 3 months. 19 Templars 22 years. You have no answer to that. Don't talk about 28 and 38 Templars because neither had the equal amount of assassination work ethic (distractions from other priorities) when you look at total count. The time span you look at is broad and you fail to consider other priorities such as the apple and Altair's family. So lets look at it when there are no other priorities. 10 Templars in 3 months vs.19 Templars in 22 years. Altair's faster and more efficient.

3. Actually I stated that your demeaning Ezio by demeaning Altair for using the apple. And yes Altair is in fact great with the apple. The apple is almost like a starting weapon for him if Ubisoft ever did a simulation between the him, Ezio and Connor. Obviously they wouldn't do that, and if they did I wouldn't agree with them because its unfair. But Altair did master it and greatly even as a 92 year old. Its almost as if the apple and him shared a sort of a bond that's how much he got accustomed to it. And what is the point of being able to speak to the God? The "god" in AC2 spoke to Desmond through Ezio. The Gods spoke to Desmond in the other games. Not Ezio. All Ezio was is a messenger in time. A "conduit" as he called himself when trying to speak out to Desmond. There's no mastering in that...

4. Actually if you played AC1 again, Altair didn't get beat up by Robert De Sable. He was up and walking immediately. He merely got caught in his arrogant act. It's almost as if he needed to learn his mistake, it paved the way for the game and understand the treachery of Al-Mualim. Both Altair and Ezio broke their tenets. We're talking about their tactics and skills. Ezio has gotten hurt a lot more than Altair has in the games. That's not very efficient assassinations. And Robert De Sable was a young Grand Master Templar whose butt Altair whooped at the end of AC1 along with 10 other Templar knights at the same time. (Altair was only 26!). Ezio got whooped by Rodrigo Borgia who was much less skilled and much older (almost too old) than Robert De Sable. Not to mention Templars during the Crusades were incredible at combat. In fact, Robert Da Sable was probably one of my favorite villains in terms of character and combat.

Altair's fight with Moloch or the Oracle (read up on them) was actually just as impressive as Shahluku. Shahluku and Moloch were more brawler type, that's why its not an easy target. Assassins are usually lesser brawlers, they have to be more agile. (In Conners case, he's kind of both). It takes time to take out brawlers when your small in stature.

@kickazz786 said:

1. Ha I called you out on it and your trying to use my own argument against me? I used math not a blind speculation. There's a difference. Mine is backed by scientific calculations. Yours is a statement.

2. The "part time assassination" phrase was used to dumb it down for you. The fact of the matter is Altair had a family, the apple, travels throughout his middle age. Ezio didn't. Ezio traveled far at age 52 just before he retired. There's a huge difference. Understand that and then try to make an argument. I'm not making Altair look weak, I have said time and again that Altair killed 18 Templars, worked the apple, maintained a family and traveled around and about spreading the Creed. As I've posted before (maybe you can't read), Altair was a WELL-ROUNDED assassin (assassin by the way does not mean the same thing as a killer in my definition; I mean a "brotherhood member"). And good job accepting on being called out. Hopefully now you understand Altair was working the apple since he was 26 not since he was 62.

I'm going to quote you so others can see this:

" It just so happens there was more power and more Templars to kill in Ezio's time."

A. More power is a speculation. Robert Da Sable was a Grand Master Templar with a whole crusader army at his side.

B. Since according to what you just admitted (and yes I'm going to keep holding this to you every time you post now), Ezio had more Templars to kill, so your entire argument about Ezio killing 38 Templars vs. Altair killing 28 just backfired on you. Hence the number of Templars that an assassin kills indicates absolutely nothing about how good they are. Good job.

2. (Continued). "Ezio was multitasking in Revelations too. He had to find the Masyaf seals and upon that he had to liberate Constantinople."

A. Ezio needed Sophia's help.

B. Revelations was a timeline of 2 years. 2 YEARS. That's all he multitasked for?? Altair multitasked from age 26 - 62. HOLY CRAP!

All those things you mentioned about how Ezio helped Leonardo. Actually it was more like Leonardo doing more work for Ezio. Literally everything Ezio did in his life was through help one way or another. Leonardo, Mario, Sophia, and own sister! Everything. Altair did other work as well and more. Look at the wiki page; Altair designed, liberated, spread the Creed, took down Genghis Khan etc. Don't compare the amount of well-roundedness between the two seriously, there's no comparison in that AT ALL. Ubisoft has made it clear, Altair definitely did a lot more towards the Creed than Ezio did, heck even Ezio admitted it.

And your point about how Ezio killed more Templars in a shorter time than Altair is now officially invalid since you admitted that Ezio had more Templars to kill to begin with. Altair's time didn't have as many main Templars. (All according to you). Now lets do this (for the 100th time) according to me. 10 Templars 3 months. 19 Templars 22 years. You have no answer to that. Don't talk about 28 and 38 Templars because neither had the equal amount of assassination work ethic (distractions from other priorities) when you look at total count. The time span you look at is broad and you fail to consider other priorities such as the apple and Altair's family. So lets look at it when there are no other priorities. 10 Templars in 3 months vs.19 Templars in 22 years. Altair's faster and more efficient.

3. Actually I stated that your demeaning Ezio by demeaning Altair for using the apple. And yes Altair is in fact great with the apple. The apple is almost like a starting weapon for him if Ubisoft ever did a simulation between the him, Ezio and Connor. Obviously they wouldn't do that, and if they did I wouldn't agree with them because its unfair. But Altair did master it and greatly even as a 92 year old. Its almost as if the apple and him shared a sort of a bond that's how much he got accustomed to it. And what is the point of being able to speak to the God? The "god" in AC2 spoke to Desmond through Ezio. The Gods spoke to Desmond in the other games. Not Ezio. All Ezio was is a messenger in time. A "conduit" as he called himself when trying to speak out to Desmond. There's no mastering in that...

4. Actually if you played AC1 again, Altair didn't get beat up by Robert De Sable. He was up and walking immediately. He merely got caught in his arrogant act. It's almost as if he needed to learn his mistake, it paved the way for the game and understand the treachery of Al-Mualim. Both Altair and Ezio broke their tenets. We're talking about their tactics and skills. Ezio has gotten hurt a lot more than Altair has in the games. That's not very efficient assassinations. And Robert De Sable was a young Grand Master Templar whose butt Altair whooped at the end of AC1 along with 10 other Templar knights at the same time. (Altair was only 26!). Ezio got whooped by Rodrigo Borgia who was much less skilled and much older (almost too old) than Robert De Sable. Not to mention Templars during the Crusades were incredible at combat. In fact, Robert Da Sable was probably one of my favorite villains in terms of character and combat.

Altair's fight with Moloch or the Oracle (read up on them) was actually just as impressive as Shahluku. Shahluku and Moloch were more brawler type, that's why its not an easy target. Assassins are usually lesser brawlers, they have to be more agile. (In Conners case, he's kind of both). It takes time to take out brawlers when your small in stature.

1. That was a speculation. You just assumed that if Altair wasn't dealing with the Apple he would have killed 148 Templars. And I speculated if Ezio didn't drop out in his 50's he would be just as good.

2. Whats your deal? I accept the facts because I was wrong. Are you THAT naive you have to rub it in my face? You havn't accepted anything I've said. Calling out a speculation when its fact.

A. Robert de Sable had a weak army. Templar's in Ezio's time had more power otherwise why would they've been in the dark from the fall of Masyaf to Ezio's period?

B. Accept it. The fact that Ezio had to kill more Templars just proves my point that they were more powerful in resources.

2 (continued) -

A. Sofia merely found the location of the books for him. Ezio was the one who decyphered the books and found the Masyaf keys.

B. You're not counting AC2 and Brotherhood. Just proves how biased you are.

Altair did a lot more to preserve the Creed. Ezio did more to supress the Templars. Ezio helped Leonado more times than not. Are you forgetting the war missions and Pythagoras missions in Brotherhood? Ezio's sister didn't do anything. Mario trained Ezio like Al Mualim trained Altair, so I guess that point back fired. So what Ezio needed more help? The Templar hold was stronger in Ezio's time, Altair wouldn't survive alone in Ezio's time. You seem to keep forgetting that.

And you're comparing 10 Templars in 3 months to 19 Templars in 22 years? That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard considering Altair was a Master and Ezio was a rookie. Not to mention the Templar hold was stronger and the assassins were under the radar in Ezio's time. Even if we did look at it from a broad perspective. Ezio still killed more Templars in the shorter life he lived and he had other priorities as well. He had a family. He had to assist thieves, mercanaries and courtesans. He had assassination contracts. He was rebuilding the Brotherhood in Europe back to its former strength.

3. Ezio spoke to Desmond directly. That takes wisdom. He knew his purpose and why he was destined for the Order. Also Ezio could manage the Masyaf keys easy. Controlling the Apple really isn't a feat. The Apple grants nearly any form of knowledge a person wishes. Cesare had Leonado construct War Machines that the Apple contained. Nearlly anyone can use its knowledge. Ezio wasn't as greedy as Altair though. He used Altair's armor once and you're putting him down for that?

4. I think YOU need to play AC1 again. Stop denying the fact that Altair was thrown into a scaffold. Altair fled. He left his brothers there! Who does that? That was an epic failure. Especially since Malik completed the mission and came back with a decapitated arm. Altair didn't even fight the other Knights because he was owned so easy.

True, the Templar Knights were well trained. The Crusaders however were disappointing. Read up on it. They had zero dicipline, and lacked training. Ottomans owned them in the fourth Crusade.

Robert de Sable wasn't as good as Shahkulu. Have you heard of the Shahkulu Rebellion? Shahkulu fought small armies of Ottoman's single handidly. Historians deemed him invincible. That is a great title. Not to mention Ottoman's fought similar to the Mongols. And Ezio fought Shahkulu while a group of Byzantines backed him.

Don't compare Moloch to Shahkulu, as far as I'm concerned Moloch isn't even a historical figure and is featless in games.

Ezio down right fought tougher enemies than Altair.

First of all Altair took down the Templar GOLDEN AGE. That's NOT just me using that term because I like it. If you play enough Revelations Multiplayer, one of the memories flat out says that this era was their Golden Age. They use that same exact term so don't think I'm making it up. Go ahead and find references for Ezio starting a 'golden age' of anything. So according to Abstergo, their peak was exactly the same time they were fighting Altair so the comparison of who was fighting the stronger version of Templar favors Altair.

Altair led the team that killed the greatest conqueror in history. The Keshig, the personal guard of Ghenghis Khan numbered 10,000 and was a highly sought position in an army that was already composed of elite arches and warriors. The Khan was also paranoid of being poisioned and assassinated since that's how his own father died. This is the instance where Altair was spotted and injured. By contrast Ezio is spotted by a random Cardinal he's trying to trail. The comparison isn't even close. He's gravely injured multiple times each game.

You increase sync with Medicine since Altair is that memory is at full health. Anything you do that mimics what your target memory is doing can increase sync.

Saladin's army had an aura of invincibility until Arsuf. At Arsuf, the Crusaders beat this invincible army while outnumbered 3 to 1. Richard was generally in the thick of battle surrounded by an elite guard. Altair fought through all of that untouched so you can't just dismiss it all because you don't like it. There's even arches on towers start START off firing at you. By contrast Ezio lost damage against a featless army that did nothing of importance in the Siege of Vianna.

Altair would destroy Templars regardless of the era. Can you imagine how overpowered he would be with Armor, guns, smoke bombs, medicine and access to mercs, thieves and call girl spies? That isn't even fair. By contrast, Ezio would be DEAD if he fought like Altair in his time. The only thing that saved Ezio's life was the armor that Altair invented when Rodrigo beat him. That's just a fact and not negotiable. If Ezio had Altair's equipment when he fought Rodrigo, Ezio would have died in the first game. Now honestly apprecciate that fact for a moment before you start making excuses for Ezio. With only Altair's equipment, Ezio is literally a dead man. Fact.

@MisterGuyMan: Well said, any argument against that is just fanboy stuff and pure lies or hyperbole. This post should end the thread.

@MonsterStomp said:

1. That was a speculation. You just assumed that if Altair wasn't dealing with the Apple he would have killed 148 Templars. And I speculated if Ezio didn't drop out in his 50's he would be just as good.

2. Whats your deal? I accept the facts because I was wrong. Are you THAT naive you have to rub it in my face? You havn't accepted anything I've said. Calling out a speculation when its fact.

A. Robert de Sable had a weak army. Templar's in Ezio's time had more power otherwise why would they've been in the dark from the fall of Masyaf to Ezio's period?

B. Accept it. The fact that Ezio had to kill more Templars just proves my point that they were more powerful in resources.

2 (continued) -

A. Sofia merely found the location of the books for him. Ezio was the one who decyphered the books and found the Masyaf keys.

B. You're not counting AC2 and Brotherhood. Just proves how biased you are.

Altair did a lot more to preserve the Creed. Ezio did more to supress the Templars. Ezio helped Leonado more times than not. Are you forgetting the war missions and Pythagoras missions in Brotherhood? Ezio's sister didn't do anything. Mario trained Ezio like Al Mualim trained Altair, so I guess that point back fired. So what Ezio needed more help? The Templar hold was stronger in Ezio's time, Altair wouldn't survive alone in Ezio's time. You seem to keep forgetting that.

And you're comparing 10 Templars in 3 months to 19 Templars in 22 years? That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard considering Altair was a Master and Ezio was a rookie. Not to mention the Templar hold was stronger and the assassins were under the radar in Ezio's time. Even if we did look at it from a broad perspective. Ezio still killed more Templars in the shorter life he lived and he had other priorities as well. He had a family. He had to assist thieves, mercanaries and courtesans. He had assassination contracts. He was rebuilding the Brotherhood in Europe back to its former strength.

3. Ezio spoke to Desmond directly. That takes wisdom. He knew his purpose and why he was destined for the Order. Also Ezio could manage the Masyaf keys easy. Controlling the Apple really isn't a feat. The Apple grants nearly any form of knowledge a person wishes. Cesare had Leonado construct War Machines that the Apple contained. Nearlly anyone can use its knowledge. Ezio wasn't as greedy as Altair though. He used Altair's armor once and you're putting him down for that?

4. I think YOU need to play AC1 again. Stop denying the fact that Altair was thrown into a scaffold. Altair fled. He left his brothers there! Who does that? That was an epic failure. Especially since Malik completed the mission and came back with a decapitated arm. Altair didn't even fight the other Knights because he was owned so easy.

True, the Templar Knights were well trained. The Crusaders however were disappointing. Read up on it. They had zero dicipline, and lacked training. Ottomans owned them in the fourth Crusade.

Robert de Sable wasn't as good as Shahkulu. Have you heard of the Shahkulu Rebellion? Shahkulu fought small armies of Ottoman's single handidly. Historians deemed him invincible. That is a great title. Not to mention Ottoman's fought similar to the Mongols. And Ezio fought Shahkulu while a group of Byzantines backed him.

Don't compare Moloch to Shahkulu, as far as I'm concerned Moloch isn't even a historical figure and is featless in games.

Ezio down right fought tougher enemies than Altair.

1. It's not speculation if its backed with calculations. 10 Templars in 3 months is a faster kill rate than 19 Templars in 22 years. It's simple arithmetic.

2. Nothing you have said has proved me wrong. You've gotten proved wrong by almost everyone whose been debating you here. The face rubbing is needed since you're practically insulting a part of a game without any real knowledge of it and honestly you can't expect to make false claims in the real world and expect to get away with it. You have to understand some people are hard core gamers and like to stick to facts about the games. I've been playing devils advocate with you. Yes I tease you with Ezio but as I've stated before; Ezio is my favorite playable character, I relate more with him when I played the games. Altair to me is a boring guy, but that doesn't mean Ezio is better than him. He's just more fun to play with that's all. Take this debate as a learning experience, it's not supposed to offend you. If your going to have strong opinions against something, you have to provide concrete evidence. It's one thing to be humble in your approach in a debate, but if your going to down right act as if Altair is a piece of junk, your going to need to back it up. And so far, you haven't done a good job of it.

A. Wrong. Read books on Crusaders and Saladin's army. Templars were very strong and skilled during the 1100s.

B. Nope. Speculation on your part that's all. Killing more men even in the real world doesn't mean the opposition had more power. For instance, a nation may kill more men and generals in a war against another nation but that doesn't necessarily mean that opposing nation is more powerful, it simply means there's more of them. For instance, the U.S had far less military than Iraq in the Gulf War during 1990-1991, but whooped Iraq's butt.

2. continued.

A. Doesn't matter, Ezio needed help in his life and a lot of it. Altair did not.

B. Actually you're the one who brought up Ezio's "multitasking" during Revelations. May be you should read your own posts.

Leonardo helped design Ezio's armor, without him Ezio would not survive. He gave Ezio his flying "plane", without it Ezio wouldn't have succeeded. Leonardo helped Ezio more than the other way. Ezio NEEDED Leonardo. Open a history book and read about Leonardo Da Vinci, even in the real world, his contributions are far beyond what most inventors have given to us.

I think Misterguyman just owned you on the power of Templars comparison between the Crusades and Renaissance. Refer to that to learn some facts. Looks like your point about Templar power and Ezio's struggle during Renaissance just backfired on you. He provided you with facts. "Templar Golden Age" during Crusades. All you did was speculate that Templars were more powerful during Ezio's time. Maybe this entire time you've been delusional about the Templars being so powerful during Ezio's time because Ezio did a bad job of getting to them. Maybe Altair just did such a great job in his legacy that it made the Templars look horrible.

Ezio was a rookie for 22 years? Jeez and you think this guy is a better Assassin than 26 year old Master Assassin Altair? Sounds like an excuse your making up for Ezio. 10 Templars 3 months. 19 Templars 22 years. That's all I'm going to say. Ezio didn't have much of a family. In fact Claudia his sister yelled at him that he pretty much abandoned her and she's been taking care of herself. Perhaps re-play the games? Altair got married and raised two sons his whole life while studying the apple and spreading the creed and killing Templars. Ezio sucked at watching over Claudia and his mom. He pretty much got owned by Claudia in Brotherhood, when he finally realizes that she has Assassin blood in her as well and has been taking care of herself. Face it, Altair was a well-rounded human being. Ezio, not nearly as good.

As far as the mercenaries and thieves, it was more like Ezio was helped by them. Sure he helped them but he required the assistance of his recruits. Altair never did.

3. So now you get caught by me about how Ezio doesn't talk to gods and are trying to claim that by talking to Desmond he has wisdom? Lmao. This debate has been so entertaining. Minerva referred to Desmonds name in AC2, that's how Ezio realized she wasn't talking to him. It doesn't really make you wise when someone clearly says someone else's name when they're speaking. Also, Ezio didn't know his purpose till he was like 52. Till then all he did was seek revenge and form the Italian brotherhood. And you think this guy is supposedly the best assassin? Wow.

Ezio fainted when he touched the apple. His willpower is horrible compared to Altair. Altair used the apple to its full potential and utilized it as a weapon without inflicting himself any mental or physical pain. Unlocking the apples full potential is a big deal. 2 pages ago you yourself said that if Ezio had studied the apple for 20 years he could have mastered it. You yourself used those words. Now your saying its not a big deal? Come on man stop flip flopping.

Lol now so Altair is greedy? What's your problem with the protagonist of the game? At least I admit I like Ezio. Altair sacrificed more in his life than Ezio ever did. He exiled HIMSELF. He didn't kill Abbas when his wife convinced him not to. He spread the Creed. He escorted the Polo brothers safely. He wouldn't tell his son about the apple to protect him and let him live a happy life. He even locked himself in his own library and died that to prevent the apple getting in the wrong hands. Altair designed the library so that only an Assassin could unlock it. He made his own tomb. If anything, Altair is shown to be the least greedy in the series of all. Altair learned his lesson as a 26 year old arrogant assassin. He grew to become a great man.

4. Ezio literally got physically and mentally beat up by Borgia. Altair didn't. And as I said, Altair's experience in the beginning of AC1 paved the way for him to learn the truth and become a better person and to understand his purpose as an assassin. Ezio had a purpose and failed. Altair never had a purpose until Al-Mualim gave him a chance and told him about The Pieces of Eden.

It doesn't matter, Altair beat the crap out of the Templar knights without any help. Ezio needed help. That's the point. Plus as I pointed out before, refer to Misterguyman's post about Templar's golden age.

Altair fought Moloch, the twins and the Oracle with low grade, cloth type armor. Ezio fought Shahkulu with plate armor and a gun. Give Altair the advanced armor, he would own Ezio. Ezio couldn't survive a day in Altair's time. Not unless he was trained since he was young. Analogy: Give am 18 year old a gun, he can kill many man. Give a 18 year old nothing, he wont survive in a bad neighborhood. And don't talk about Moloch being feat-less in games. Altair was really only in one game and even then he has far more fans than Ezio who has a darn trilogy. The sad part is Connor has more supporters than Ezio too.

@kickazz786: I know your post was not directed at me but there are some things I would like to point out.

First you claim Altair never had any help, that's not true in the first game he had a lot of help, Al Mualim informed him who his targets were, and the Assassin's that were on Acre, Damascus and Jerusalem helped him make plans to kill the templars. So claiming he never required help is untrue.

You make Ezio sound like he was a complete failure, that's not true. It's fact that the templars were powerful when compared to the Assassin's in Ezio's time, than they were in Altair's, It's a fact that their leader was the most powerful man in Europe at the time, Ezio had to actually track down the entire order while Altair had his work cut short by Al Mualim. Ezio brought the Assassin's back from their ruin in Italy, tracked and killed all of the Templar leaders, he had help sure but he did most of it alone.

Also as I remember Rodrigo only "beat" Ezio thanks to the Staff, and the fact that he could use it more effectively than Ezio could use the Apple, Ezio tackled him and thought he was unconscious then tried to stab him rodrigo grabbed the Staff and used it's power to thorw Ezio away, they fight and Ezio has Rodrigo on his knees, he only survived by using the Staff's power, he goes invisible and the takes the Apple then he stabs Ezio who proceds to get up and whoop Rodrigo in a fist fight.

I'm not saying Ezio is better, I hoenstly don't think he is a better Assassin overall, maybe a better fighter but not a better Assassin.

@kickazz786 said:

1. It's not speculation if its backed with calculations. 10 Templars in 3 months is a faster kill rate than 19 Templars in 22 years. It's simple arithmetic.

2. Nothing you have said has proved me wrong. You've gotten proved wrong by almost everyone whose been debating you here. The face rubbing is needed since you're practically insulting a part of a game without any real knowledge of it and honestly you can't expect to make false claims in the real world and expect to get away with it. You have to understand some people are hard core gamers and like to stick to facts about the games. I've been playing devils advocate with you. Yes I tease you with Ezio but as I've stated before; Ezio is my favorite playable character, I relate more with him when I played the games. Altair to me is a boring guy, but that doesn't mean Ezio is better than him. He's just more fun to play with that's all. Take this debate as a learning experience, it's not supposed to offend you. If your going to have strong opinions against something, you have to provide concrete evidence. It's one thing to be humble in your approach in a debate, but if your going to down right act as if Altair is a piece of junk, your going to need to back it up. And so far, you haven't done a good job of it.

A. Wrong. Read books on Crusaders and Saladin's army. Templars were very strong and skilled during the 1100s.

B. Nope. Speculation on your part that's all. Killing more men even in the real world doesn't mean the opposition had more power. For instance, a nation may kill more men and generals in a war against another nation but that doesn't necessarily mean that opposing nation is more powerful, it simply means there's more of them. For instance, the U.S had far less military than Iraq in the Gulf War during 1990-1991, but whooped Iraq's butt.

2. continued.

A. Doesn't matter, Ezio needed help in his life and a lot of it. Altair did not.

B. Actually you're the one who brought up Ezio's "multitasking" during Revelations. May be you should read your own posts.

Leonardo helped design Ezio's armor, without him Ezio would not survive. He gave Ezio his flying "plane", without it Ezio wouldn't have succeeded. Leonardo helped Ezio more than the other way. Ezio NEEDED Leonardo. Open a history book and read about Leonardo Da Vinci, even in the real world, his contributions are far beyond what most inventors have given to us.

I think Misterguyman just owned you on the power of Templars comparison between the Crusades and Renaissance. Refer to that to learn some facts. Looks like your point about Templar power and Ezio's struggle during Renaissance just backfired on you. He provided you with facts. "Templar Golden Age" during Crusades. All you did was speculate that Templars were more powerful during Ezio's time. Maybe this entire time you've been delusional about the Templars being so powerful during Ezio's time because Ezio did a bad job of getting to them. Maybe Altair just did such a great job in his legacy that it made the Templars look horrible.

Ezio was a rookie for 22 years? Jeez and you think this guy is a better Assassin than 26 year old Master Assassin Altair? Sounds like an excuse your making up for Ezio. 10 Templars 3 months. 19 Templars 22 years. That's all I'm going to say. Ezio didn't have much of a family. In fact Claudia his sister yelled at him that he pretty much abandoned her and she's been taking care of herself. Perhaps re-play the games? Altair got married and raised two sons his whole life while studying the apple and spreading the creed and killing Templars. Ezio sucked at watching over Claudia and his mom. He pretty much got owned by Claudia in Brotherhood, when he finally realizes that she has Assassin blood in her as well and has been taking care of herself. Face it, Altair was a well-rounded human being. Ezio, not nearly as good.

As far as the mercenaries and thieves, it was more like Ezio was helped by them. Sure he helped them but he required the assistance of his recruits. Altair never did.

3. So now you get caught by me about how Ezio doesn't talk to gods and are trying to claim that by talking to Desmond he has wisdom? Lmao. This debate has been so entertaining. Minerva referred to Desmonds name in AC2, that's how Ezio realized she wasn't talking to him. It doesn't really make you wise when someone clearly says someone else's name when they're speaking. Also, Ezio didn't know his purpose till he was like 52. Till then all he did was seek revenge and form the Italian brotherhood. And you think this guy is supposedly the best assassin? Wow.

Ezio fainted when he touched the apple. His willpower is horrible compared to Altair. Altair used the apple to its full potential and utilized it as a weapon without inflicting himself any mental or physical pain. Unlocking the apples full potential is a big deal. 2 pages ago you yourself said that if Ezio had studied the apple for 20 years he could have mastered it. You yourself used those words. Now your saying its not a big deal? Come on man stop flip flopping.

Lol now so Altair is greedy? What's your problem with the protagonist of the game? At least I admit I like Ezio. Altair sacrificed more in his life than Ezio ever did. He exiled HIMSELF. He didn't kill Abbas when his wife convinced him not to. He spread the Creed. He escorted the Polo brothers safely. He wouldn't tell his son about the apple to protect him and let him live a happy life. He even locked himself in his own library and died that to prevent the apple getting in the wrong hands. Altair designed the library so that only an Assassin could unlock it. He made his own tomb. If anything, Altair is shown to be the least greedy in the series of all. Altair learned his lesson as a 26 year old arrogant assassin. He grew to become a great man.

4. Ezio literally got physically and mentally beat up by Borgia. Altair didn't. And as I said, Altair's experience in the beginning of AC1 paved the way for him to learn the truth and become a better person and to understand his purpose as an assassin. Ezio had a purpose and failed. Altair never had a purpose until Al-Mualim gave him a chance and told him about The Pieces of Eden.

It doesn't matter, Altair beat the crap out of the Templar knights without any help. Ezio needed help. That's the point. Plus as I pointed out before, refer to Misterguyman's post about Templar's golden age.

Altair fought Moloch, the twins and the Oracle with low grade, cloth type armor. Ezio fought Shahkulu with plate armor and a gun. Give Altair the advanced armor, he would own Ezio. Ezio couldn't survive a day in Altair's time. Not unless he was trained since he was young. Analogy: Give am 18 year old a gun, he can kill many man. Give a 18 year old nothing, he wont survive in a bad neighborhood. And don't talk about Moloch being feat-less in games. Altair was really only in one game and even then he has far more fans than Ezio who has a darn trilogy. The sad part is Connor has more supporters than Ezio too.

1. Total BS. 10 Templars in 3 months and then 18 Templars in 40 odd years? Its a speculation because you just assume Altair would have continued to kill 10 Templars each 3 months when the rest of his life clearly didn't show that. Dispite studying the Apple on and off. Ezio had other things to deal with as well and he still managed to kill more Templars in a shorter time. Just accept that Ezio did more to stop the Templars than Altair. Altair did more for the Brotherhood which is the main reason why he's Grand Master of the Assassin's, not because he is more skilled.

2. No. A debate is about friendly arguments to prove a point. At no point is a debate suppose to switch to offensive behaviour. Just because you proved me wrong in a point doesn't mean you can rub it in. Just childish behaviour TBH.

A. From what I've read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Crusader_states

"The Crusaders were at times poorly united and their tactics lacked flexibility. The Crusading soldiers were also not very disciplined."

Saracen's didn't compare to Ottomans.

B. No. The fact that Ezio HAD to kill more Templar's in his time just proves how strong the Templar hold was. Don't compare army fights. This is about indurvidual men with power and resources. Like Obama, Dalai Lama, or even Hitler and BinLarden.

2. Continued.

A. Like I keep saying, Templar's were more in power and the Brotherhood was just begining to rise from the grave. Altair wouldn't last alone. Especially if the order is broken.

B. Yeah I bought that up about Revelations as an example, but you simply ignored the fact that Ezio had been doing it his entire life.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Leonado didn't design armor of any kind. And without Ezio's help Leonado wouldn't have survived passed Brotherhood.

Firstly I didn't know the Multiplayer was canon. Secondly, Ezio set something of the Golden Age for the Assassin's in Europe.

3. Alright I got one. Ezio mastered eagle sense. Something Altair in all his years didn't do.

4. Moloch is featless. Which suggests that Altair killing him wasn't much of a feat. Ezio took Shahkulu out by himself. Shahkulu has feats. According to history he fought small Ottoman armies. Ottomans have feats. According to history their fighting technique was comparable to the Mongol's. Mongol's have feats. In the Khan Dynasty they mowed nearly entire China down. Not to mention Ezio was being attacked by as well by Byzantines. Byzantines have feats. They beat the Ottomans in their first encounter.

Cusaders lost to Ottomans.

Altair would survive in Ezio's time, but he'd need the armor and all that stuff as well. He wouldn't be untouchable in combat either. Considering guns and other things would have tagged him. It'll be funny watching Altair try and survive in Ezio's time. Because apparently he doesn't need help, right? He has a place to stay right? He has cash and contacts to feed him intel right? Thats what I thought.

The multiplayer files are canon. You unlock them the more you play MP. One of the files is called "GoldenAge" so according to the Templars themselves, Altair fought the Templars at their strongest. Just counting how many Templars each killed in the games mean nothing because we don't have a complete list for either and assuming we have complete lists is baseless especially for Altair who has massive gaps where we know little detail of his whereabouts.

Ezio was spotted by a random Cardinal that he was trailing. Ezio failed to kill Rodrigo the first time he tried to kill him and let him get away. He was injured in the Siege of Vianna. Rodrigo stabbed him and would have killed him. In the memory the Thespian Pt 1, Ezio was trying to assassinate the actress and let her get away. I can honestly go on but I don't have to. Go ahead and compile a list of Altair's failures and we'll compare. Note that you can't use the "Ezio lived in a harder era" excuse for these memories either. They're basic failures for Ezio unless you think a random Cardinal has advanced sensory technology or something. His wounds in the Siege of Vianna aren't excusable either. There's no advanced technology that was involved in damaging him. It was all the typical entry level guards that you fight and Cesare.

Also no mention of how Altair's assassination through the battle of Arsuf trumps anything Ezio has done. Or how Ghenghis Khan's assination trumps anything Ezio has done too. Or any acceptance that Abstergo considers the Templars strongest during Altair's time. Finally there's also no acceptance of the fact that even if Ezio fought better people, he was far better equipped comparatively. Altair, if anything was underequipped yet he still beat flawlessly people better equipped than himself. Factually Ezio would have died without his legendary armor saving his life against some one wearing a robe that was just ambushed.

You're also comparing armies and societies through time which is fallacious. Societies and militaries peak and decline at different times so just assuming a Byzantine army in one era is the same as one even a decade later is nonsensical.

@MisterGuyMan: In the final confrontation between Ezio and Rodrigo, Rodrigo only survived because of the staff, Ezio would have killed him if Rodrigo wasn't better with the staff than Ezio was with the apple, that's a fact. IIRC during the siege he only ever got hurt by artillery fire, what other instances do youy have in mind that he got seriously hurt during that specific conflict? He also killed Cesare who was himself a very good swordfighter. He also fought against both sides of the conflict. I see no difference between the Battle of Arsuf and the Siege of Vianna, they both fought a bunch of featless soldiers and killed their targets. And although Altair did play a huge hole in Khan's death he was not the one that killed him, and during that very mission Altair was both spotted and wounded by a guard, and Darim and Qulam Gal were the ones that actually killed Khan.

You keep talking of Ezio's failures as if Altair never failed, he was more effective sure but he still failed. During Altair's Chronicles he failed a few times. Altair was not perfect. It would have been easy for Altair to die during Ezio's time without the same equipment Ezio had. .

@MisterGuyMan said:

The multiplayer files are canon. You unlock them the more you play MP. One of the files is called "GoldenAge" so according to the Templars themselves, Altair fought the Templars at their strongest. Just counting how many Templars each killed in the games mean nothing because we don't have a complete list for either and assuming we have complete lists is baseless especially for Altair who has massive gaps where we know little detail of his whereabouts.

Ezio was spotted by a random Cardinal that he was trailing. Ezio failed to kill Rodrigo the first time he tried to kill him and let him get away. He was injured in the Siege of Vianna. Rodrigo stabbed him and would have killed him. In the memory the Thespian Pt 1, Ezio was trying to assassinate the actress and let her get away. I can honestly go on but I don't have to. Go ahead and compile a list of Altair's failures and we'll compare. Note that you can't use the "Ezio lived in a harder era" excuse for these memories either. They're basic failures for Ezio unless you think a random Cardinal has advanced sensory technology or something. His wounds in the Siege of Vianna aren't excusable either. There's no advanced technology that was involved in damaging him. It was all the typical entry level guards that you fight and Cesare.

Also no mention of how Altair's assassination through the battle of Arsuf trumps anything Ezio has done. Or how Ghenghis Khan's assination trumps anything Ezio has done too. Or any acceptance that Abstergo considers the Templars strongest during Altair's time. Finally there's also no acceptance of the fact that even if Ezio fought better people, he was far better equipped comparatively. Altair, if anything was underequipped yet he still beat flawlessly people better equipped than himself. Factually Ezio would have died without his legendary armor saving his life against some one wearing a robe that was just ambushed.

You're also comparing armies and societies through time which is fallacious. Societies and militaries peak and decline at different times so just assuming a Byzantine army in one era is the same as one even a decade later is nonsensical.

1. Accepted. Golden Age for the Templars began in Altair's time. What happened from there? Why had the assassin's gone into hidding? Its clear that their Age lasted for a while. Who stopped this rise? Ezio, if no other.

Doesn't necessarily mean nothing. And even if we did have a complete list of every member of the Templar Order I'm confident that Ezio will still come out on top with numbers. Kickazz786 had the idea that the most skilled assassin is one who kills with speed and efficiency. I proved him/her wrong when Ezio killed more in a shorter time.

2. If you're refering to the feat where the Cardinal's were meeting up in the Colesseum and the Cardinal spotted Ezio. Out of everything you pick that as a fail? Ezio has way more tail feats to top that. Like tailing when he had to tail the sentator without touching the ground.

Injured in the Siege of Vianna. Over 10,000 Navarre soldiers were sent there to take the city (according to history). Ezio was faced with gunmen and crossbowmen from both sides of the battle. Whats to say he wasn't shot?

Thespian Pt 1. Ezio was simply training his apprentices. It was very important that he let the apprentices do everything as they would rise to the Master title. Ezio didn't try and kill the actress. If he wanted her dead she'd be dead, seen when she slipped up again.

The fight at Arsuf was a low showing. The Crusades didn't rein for long like the Byzantine Empire. Yet Ezio infiltrated the base of opperations fought multiple soldiers unharmed, killed Shahkulu (who in turn would trump Robert de Sable in a fight) and stopped the rise of another Byzantine Dynasty with the assassination of Manuel Palaiologos. Single handidly after a days work.

Altair didn't kill Khan. He orchestrated the assassination, somewhat like Ezio orchestrated the assassination of the entire Borgia family.

How do we know that the Crusades were tougher than anything Ezio fought? The Ottomans and Byzantines peaked at around Ezio's time.

@TheMightyAvenger said:

@MisterGuyMan: In the final confrontation between Ezio and Rodrigo, Rodrigo only survived because of the staff, Ezio would have killed him if Rodrigo wasn't better with the staff than Ezio was with the apple, that's a fact. IIRC during the siege he only ever got hurt by artillery fire, what other instances do youy have in mind that he got seriously hurt during that specific conflict? He also killed Cesare who was himself a very good swordfighter. He also fought against both sides of the conflict. I see no difference between the Battle of Arsuf and the Siege of Vianna, they both fought a bunch of featless soldiers and killed their targets. And although Altair did play a huge hole in Khan's death he was not the one that killed him, and during that very mission Altair was both spotted and wounded by a guard, and Darim and Qulam Gal were the ones that actually killed Khan.

You keep talking of Ezio's failures as if Altair never failed, he was more effective sure but he still failed. During Altair's Chronicles he failed a few times. Altair was not perfect. It would have been easy for Altair to die during Ezio's time without the same equipment Ezio had. .

Rodrigo was still on his feet and willing to fight. Just because Ezio says he has no chance doesn't mean it's true. Moreover Ezio started that fight by ambushing him and had a chance to air assassinate him so there's no excuse at all for losing.

There are a few differences between Ezio's experience in Siege of Vianna and Altair's experience in the Battle of Arsuf. Firstly Desmond loses sync any time he gets darmages which means Altair wasn't hit. The requirement for 100% sync for Ezio is not to lose 3 health so he was hurt at some point. Ezio is knocked out by artillery fire but that's before the memory starts so it's not included in the damage. Altair started all the engagements with his foes aware he was there and ready for battle. Ezio could sneak past most enemies who weren't aware he was there. In the actual assassination, Altair fought all the Templars at once whereas Ezio fought them in small groups that came in piecemeal. Finally Ezio had the undeniable advantage of arms and armor over his enemies compared to Altair. So if you just want to compare these battles as examples of skill, then Altair comes out ahead.

The examples I pointed out had no added disadvantage for Ezio due to his era. He was spotted by the Cardinal for example and it wouldn't matter when that happened. He was just spotted plain and simple. Ezio wasnt damaged by gunfire in the last memory. It was from the standard melee fights or fall damage.

Finally I used the Khan assassination to illustrate a point. Altair was spotted trying to assassinate the most protected man in the world. Ezio was spotted trying to follow a random old man Cardinal.

@MisterGuyMan: I accept that fighting Robert de Sable and a small group Templar Knights while not sustaining harm was impressive. But seriously, fighting the small crusader army wasn't THAT impressive. It's not like Altair was fighting Knights all the way through, he was fighting low ranking leveled soldiers comparable to the Navarre soldiers.

Ezio at his peak was fighting through Ottoman soldiers.

Only 3 confrontations ever happened between the Crusades and Ottomans IIRC. Battle of Nicopolis, where the Crusades outnumbered the Ottomans 2 - 1 (Knights Hospitalla forces also featured in this battle against the Ottomans). Battle of Varna, again outnumbered (Papal army was featured against the Ottomans). Battle of Kosovo (1448). Each of the 3 battles the Ottoman stomped the Crusades.

Ezio takes out Shahkulu and Byzantine soldiers. Possibly as good a feat as Altair's fight with Robert de Sable. I don't see Robert de Sable being called "invincible" in combat like Shahkulu was by his partisans.

If Altair were in Ezio's time, I doubt he'd be the same "untouchable" assassin in combat.

And Altair was spotted by a patrolling guard because he was losing his touch as a stealthy killer, the Mongol guard injured Altair and Qulan Gal saved his life. Altair gets injured in a 1v1 at age 52. Thats deffinately a low showing from Altair, considering Ezio was still at his prime at age 53.

@MisterGuyMan: You're right he made a mistake he should have assassinated Rodrigo when he had the chance, he didn't he tackled Rodrigo then tried to assassinate him, he did not lose the fight out of lack of skill with a sword, he lost it because the fact that he inexperienced with the apple and that Rodrigo himself had a Piece of Eden.

True he could have been damaged during the fight in Vianna, we have no idea how though, he could have been shot from afar. And he fought Cesare while also facing many other soldiers and defeated them, Cesare's armor saved him quite a few times during the battle and it's the only reason he lasted so long. The soldier's as far as we know were just as skilled as tose that were with Robert.

I don't remember when the instance with the Cardinal took place, could you remind me? Also during Altair's Chronicles, Altair fails to sneak up on a Gypsy dancer so even when he was younger he still could be spotted by people without any remarkable skills.

Yes Khan was incredibly well guarded, as was the Pope to infiltrate the catedral of the most powerful man in Europe has to be at least comparable to infiltrating Khan's camp, and he wasn't spotted, the Pope was the most well guarded man in Europe at the time.