Poll
Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad vs Sander Clegane & Gregor Clegane (37 votes)
Altair 86%
The Clegane Brothers 14%
Round 1 - Sword Fight, all men are unarmored.
Round 2 - All Men are now armored, still a sword fight.
Round 3 - Altair fights the brothers one at a time in a fist fight, unarmored.
This is Altair slightly before deserting the Assassin Order in Masyaf, Gregor Clegane is not undead, and Sandor Clegane is as he was under the command of Joffrey Baratheon.
@the_red_viper: I think round 1 is ridiculously in Altair's favor, the dude can take out full groups of armored men on his own and has no problem fighting his way through big groups of men.
In a fist fight? I'm not sure what Altair could do to Gregor. Yeah, sure, skill is more important than strength, but with a durability like his? It'd be like slapping the rump of an angry rhino. I can see him winning round 1 and having trouble in round 2 but there's nothing to suggest Altair can get past Gregors durability.
Why does Altair win 2? I'd put Altair on maybe vipers level of skill but Altair definitely surpasses him in speed. Gregor can't contend with speed. The only issue in round 2 is sander. He was maybe as skilled as oberyn and had the size advantage as well.
@o0deadman0o: Jaime Lannister = Third best swordsman in ALL of westeros. Hell, in all of history possibly.
He took down 10 men during the battle of the whispering wood before being FORCED to surrender.
Compare that to Altair, who is a one man army and has single-handedly taken on entire fortresses on his own.
He defeated Al Mualim, who has the Apple of Eden at his disposal. Not to mention Altair took down at least 20-30 men when getting to Al Mualim ALONE, all of which were Assassin's like himself, not to mention fighting off and Ambush by at least a dozen of Crusaders. He will definitely defeat them in pure swordplay.
Altair as an at least 80-year-old man was taking down young armed assassin's bare-handed when going to take Masyaf back from Abbas, so I think that answers the H2H question, and this is Altair as a young, quick man.
I picture Altair's fist fight against Clegane going like this:
Yeah, Bone was a beast. I feel like the fight will be like that, just with a lot less kicks and a lot more punches.
In fact, if you wanna see the skill vs strength thing, look no further then the Giant known as Bob Sapp, who has gotten his ass beat by literally everyone you can think of. xD
Sure the Mountain is a bit taller, and has about 40lbs on him, but thats basically how it'd go down, Altair is simply too good with his fists to get beaten by Gregor.
Plus, Altair is taller, physically bigger, and undoubtedly stronger then Oberyn Martell, he's also far, far quicker. Couple that with the fact that they aren't confined, and in Round 2, the fact that Altair has unbreakable armour aiding him just adds to it.
@optimuspalm: Well, there were arguments in this thread that were good.
There were people saying Altair couldn't beat Assassinate Joffrey in another thread so I said "Altair could beat both the Clegane brothers together", and so I thought of this idea.
How about, to make it a bit fairer, we're using composite versions for the Clegane brothers, that means both book and show feats.
2. Altair is a way better swordsman then anyone in GoT, even Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy.
"Unbreakable"... is it made of Vibranium or something, or is it just some fancy title from the Wiki? Does it have feats of taking the amounts of damage that Gregor and Sandor can unleash? Either way, that doesn't matter. Altair sure as hell isn't going to do jack to the brothers' armor either, and the difference is that their armor covers a far larger portion of their bodies. Their armor is way superior.
Do you have feats for that?
Why make a thread when you have a winner in mind? That's called a spite thread and it's against the rules.
@inside: I skimmed through it. It's very nice but I still don't see him taking on two knights of their caliber, with their level of strength, with both having superior armor and superior reach. He's never faced anything like them.
And by the way that isn't above book Barristan or Dayne.
@the_red_viper: You seriously think Gregor and Sandor are capable of taking on 30+ men? Think about the time Sandor tried to take on just a small building filled with some Lannister men, if Arya wasn't there to stop a few of those guys, Sandor would be dead, Gregor was getting humiliated by Oberyn Martell, Sandor was defeated by Brienne of Tarth.
I'm sorry but Arthur Dayne and Barristan aren't taking on 30+ men, they don't have the skills, Altair does. Name all their best feats.
@the_red_viper Another thing, Altair was SURROUNDED on all sides by these men, he still fought them off. If anyone tried fighting off a group of armed, armored soldiers who were completely surrounding them, they'd get destroyed, barring maybe Arthur Dayne. Best example of this is Barristan Selmy in the show, he and Grey Worm barely fought off the Sons of the Harpy.
Altair fought his way through armies and butchered anyone who got in his way without taking a hit, we know he didn't take a hit because if you do get hit in-game it de-synchronizes and you have to start again, meaning it wasn't accurate to the memory/past
GoT top tiers are good, but they aren't running-through-armies-stomping-everyone-flawlessly good, Prime Jaime maxed out at killing ten guys one after the other
@inside: I don't know if Gregor/Sandor can take 30 men but that's not what I'm arguing. The question here is not whether they can replicate Altair's feat, which admittedly they probably can't, but whether they can defeat Altair and the answer to that is yes. Reason being that among them they possess too much strength, durability, skill and savagery for Altair to handle. His speed isn't going to be enough to win this when facing 2 men who are far stronger than than him or anyone he's ever faced, far more well-protected than him or anyone he's ever faced, with better reach than he has, and probably just as skilled as the toughest enemies he's ever encountered. And there's 2 of them. Altair would be hard pressed to take on any one of them and might even lose, 2 of them would be way too much.
About Barristan and Dayne, well in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, Barristan cut a bloody path through the Golden Company before defeating Maelys the Monstrous in single combat, and for god measure Maelys was a behemoth of a man with the strength to kill a horse with a single punch and tear a man's head off his shoulders with his bare hands. Dayne doesn't have many feats but he is Barristan's superior with standard gear and his equal when gear is equalized, as per GRRM's word.
Also the Sons of the Harpy example isn't very good here, since they were in a tight corridor which offered very little room to maneuver and move around, unlike Altair who was in a large open space. In any case, the specifics of Altair's fight are as good as being off-screen since despite this fight being scripted, it's still gameplay mechanics. I could argue that according to this video, Altair's foes were kind enough to attack him one by one and that he was hit tons of times and his health bar just magically refilled itself between fights. We don't know if he was really surrounded, any player could play this mission differently, for all we know he killed them all with projectiles before they were close enough to fight back. That's the problem with using video-game characters in battles.
@the_red_viper: His primary weapon of choice is a sword, thats what he uses in combat, in games where you play as him, sometimes he doesn't even HAVE projectiles, so that argument is kinda moot.
@rkelly's post is also correct, there are books that feature things Altair has done. As for the first part of your argument, it's just Silly, Sandor was nearly killed by a small group of average Lannister men, with his armor and sword.
Did I forget to mention that Altair killed all those men without ever being hit? If you are hit in the game, it de-synchronizes, which means it isn't accurate to what actually happened, when you "de-synchronize", it means you went too far away from what actually happened, which means you're basically getting pulled out of the animus.
@inside: First of all, no, Altair gets hit like a million times in those videos you posted and never gets de-synced. So that point is obviously false.
Second, I don't see what Sandor fighting some soldiers at an inn (he was not nearly killed by the way, and also he was stupid-drunk) has to do with anything. I said that I don't believe the brothers can replicate that feat of fighting 30 men, but I also don't see what difference it makes. This feat doesn't prove that Altair can deal with the brothers' armor, strength, skill and brutality. These aren't just 2 more random unarmored swordsmen, they're two angry piles of muscle and steel that can cut men in half in a single blow. You didn't even address anything that I said about their ridiculous advantages here with Altair's only advantage being speed. Each of the brothers individually has the advantage in reach, strength and durability. Either one of them would be a good match for Altair, both is an overkill.
Third, about the projectiles/no projectiles, that's exactly my point. This fight might have happened canonically, but its specifics might as well be off-screen. You said it yourself, once you get too far away from what really happened you get de-synced. I bet that if I run around throwing peojectiles at these guys I won't get de-synced right? That's because the game doesn't care HOW you pass that mission as long as you pass it. The specific of the fight are not canon and your guess is as good as mine. We have no idea what the fight looked like, we only know that it happened.
As for the books, do they have any feats for him that are relevant to show whether he can defeat the brothers?
Actually the side objectives are actually what can cause the memory to not be complete. in order to get a 100 percent correct memory you NEED to do those. Otherwise you will not have fully completed those scenarios of how they actually all went. The core element can be all fine yet the things of how to get there, how many you kill, what ways did you take these foes down. Those are the things Altiair did and if he didn't get hit then he didn't get hit. You the player may get it but Altiair NEVER got hit according to the 100 percent memory strand.
@the_red_viper: First of all, no, Altair gets hit like a million times in those videos you posted and never gets de-synced. So that point is obviously false.
Not sure if you've played the game (sorry if you have), but the bar at the top is a synchronisation bar. Every time you get hit, the synchronisation bar goes down. Full synchronisation is a special challenge, as you're playing the events exactly as they happened (AKA you weren't hit at all). From what I can remember, Altair was only tagged twice in the game; the first was when he was being overconfident and tried a blatant assassination against a trained knight and Templar with his hidden blade while the Templar knew about the blade, and the second was by Al Mualim after he led the Templar army back to Masyaf Castle, a battle he essentially singlehandedly turned in the Assassins' favour. In this case, he was caught by surprise and stabbed by Al Mualim as punishment.
To put this into perspective, Altair is the only Assassin of all of the games, even Ezio, to have this feature. All of the other Assassins had health bars, meaning that they were hit more than once, as evidenced by the books surrounding them.
Second, I don't see what Sandor fighting some soldiers at an inn (he was not nearly killed by the way, and also he was stupid-drunk) has to do with anything. I said that I don't believe the brothers can replicate that feat of fighting 30 men, but I also don't see what difference it makes.
Agreed, being able to fight 30 men doesn't prove that he can definitively win. However, it does prove he has incredible skill and speed feats to be able to combat this many opponents at the same time.
This feat doesn't prove that Altair can deal with the brothers' armor,
Technically, if Altair gets his best armour, the armour of Altair, he is the one with the superior armour. The armour of Altair canonically survived a cannonball smashing into it and laying upon it for several years with no apparent damage, due to it being forged from schematics obtained from a race with vastly superior technology to anything of either Altair or the brothers' eras.
strength,
Strength may be an issue for Altair, but his overwhelming speed should compensate for that.
skill and brutality.
I'd say skill goes pretty decisively to Altair instead of the brothers. As for brutality, I'll concede that this will prove an issue for him.
These aren't just 2 more random unarmored swordsmen, they're two angry piles of muscle and steel that can cut men in half in a single blow.
And Altair is a cold-blooded killer who probably has a higher kill count than either of the other two combined. As some others have already suggested, Altair's strength isn't exactly elaborated upon in either the games or the novels, but his ability to fight through an army of Assassins and the like singlehandedly suggests noticeably superior skill, stamina and/or speed to that shown by the brothers. I personally believe Altair could beat either in a swordfight handily. However, I believe that in a 2 on 1, considering their superior strength, Altair will have to fully exploit his speed, skill and/or agility to win.
Round 1 goes to Altair 9/10 due to the brothers' lack of armour and Altair's ridiculous speed, round 2 goes to Altair simply due to armour never appearing to hinder Altair in the past, and round 3 goes to the brothers handily.
@penguinlover: I haven't played AC1 (I did play several of the others though), so I wasn't familiar with that feature. Good to know.
About the armor, the brothers have an overwhelming advantage here actually. Altair's armor may have better durability but that hardly matters given that Altair isn't going to do more than scratch the surface of the brothers' armor either. The difference is that their armor covers a lot more than Altair's, so the advantage goes to them. Moreover, in the books they use shields as well.
As for skill, well technical/martial skill would probably go to Altair. But the two brothers are extremely skilled themselves and probably more skilled than anyone Altair has ever fought (or at least just as skilled).
Then there's reach. Both of them, being far larger than Altair, have a lot more reach. Reach is actually a very important aspect in a fight that most people tend to overlook but the truth is that fighting 2 skilled swordsmen, both of them having a huge reach advantage, puts the odds heavily against him even without taking the strength and armor into mind.
In any case, if you wanna look I'm having a CaV right now using the Mointain (books and TV composite), against a comics character comparable to Altair. If you want I can give you a link when I get to my PC (I'm on mobile now).
Altair, especially if he include the eagle which let him predict his opponents movements.
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Eagle_Vision
When an individual masters Eagle Vision, the ability can evolve to the more advanced Eagle Sense. This stage heightens all the senses of its user, allowing them to detect the heartbeat of a target in the area, or even foresee a target's path. Some individuals also developed exotic variations of the gift; one application allowing its wielder to peer into the memories of their target upon killing them while another one allowed a gifted individual to become a kind of lie detector, knowing when someone was lying or telling the truth to them.
@the_red_viper: Uh... I would just like to mention that all Altair really has to do is get their throat's, and since normally when they fight "armored", they don't wear helmets, this is an easy win for Gregor. They have a height advantage, strength, and reach advantage, sure, but for Altair to cut through army's like he does, have armor that gets hit by a cannonball with no damage, and has as much free room as he needs, I'm pretty sure he can take them, he would avoid the brother's strikes like they were nothing and get into their defences quick, before you know it, they'd be dead.
Altair has fought much bigger men then himself before:
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As for fighting skilled 2 swordsmen:
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Here fighting and defeating Bouchard, someone who was stomping Maria in a fight, the same Maria who effortlessly took out 2 male crusaders while unarmored:
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Altair as an 82 year old man was also easily taking young armed assassin's with his bare hands. He was also stated to be several times stronger then your normal soldier and could straight up break through metal armor with his punches, I'll provide a link, should you need one.
Uh... I would just like to mention that all Altair really has to do is get their throat's, and since normally when they fight "armored", they don't wear helmets
Yeah the show has something against helmets, which is understandable because they want the viewers to see the faces of the actors. In the books however, helmets are pretty basic gear. And the throats are protected by gorgets which are also very basic gear. They are both nearly 100% armored here, whereas Altair might as well fight completely unarmored for all the good his armor does him here.
Altair has fought much bigger men then himself before:
The Mountain is nearly 8 ft tall and weighs over 400 pounds, that man is a smurf compared to him. And he wields a 6 ft long greatsword with the strength to cut men in half. The Hound is smaller, only 6'8" more or less but still a lot bigger than Altair, not to mention far stronger.
As for fighting skilled 2 swordsmen:
Cool, now show me him beating 2 skilled swordsmen who are both far bigger and stronger than him, wearing better armor and have ridiculous reach advantage.
Here fighting and defeating Bouchard, someone who was stomping Maria in a fight, the same Maria who effortlessly took out 2 male crusaders while unarmored:
Cool for him.
He was also stated to be several times stronger then your normal soldier and could straight up break through metal armor with his punches, I'll provide a link, should you need one.
I would really like to see him punching through steel armor.
@the_red_viper: You're basically saying since Altair has never fought someone as big as them, that he can't beat them, this just isn't a solid argument, I showed you someone much stronger, and taller then Altair, the guy was nearly squatting and was still taller then him, and obviously much, much bigger. For reference, Altair is 6'0.
You can find the punching through armor bit in the AC Book "The Secret Crusade", as well as the quote that he's several times stronger then the average soldier. I don't own the book myself, but here's some info on it: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Creed:_The_Secret_Crusade
You simply aren't accept any arguments, you assume just because they're big and strong, that that is enough to take down Altair, except everyone has been repeatedly posting feats about him that put his skill and speed far above anyone in Game of Thrones. So basically, think of it this way, mix Arya Stark and Oberyn Martell's speed, and then put that person above Arthur Dayne in terms of skill, on top of that, this person is also taller, bigger, and stronger then your average Game of Thrones swordsman, possibly a bit below Robert Baratheon in the strength department, above Styr. You have an incredibly skilled, strong, fast combatant who has unbreakable body armor, who is stated to break armor with his punches, can take down 30+ men while being surrounded on all sides. This man is facing Sandor, who was getting dominated by a small group of 1 heavily armored Lannister and several unarmored Lannister Men, and he needed help just to not die.
Then you have Oberyn Martell, in such an enclosed space, you'd expect him to be at a disadvantage against the mountain, yet he effortlessly toys with him like a piece of food.
Then put this incredibly dangerous Altair, in unbreakable body armor (by human standards), that can withstand a cannonball hitting it with 0 damage, and you've effectively taken away the brother's biggest target.
Altair is simply more skilled then them, and his punches are enough to hurt them in a straight up fight, and plus, it's a 1-on-1 fight, first Gregor, then Sandor, not both at once, and Altair will simply be too fast for the brothers to hit. They are ungodly big and strong, but considering how they've fought, they are not even half as skilled as some of the people Altair fights, when they fought each other, they were very, very slow in comparison, and it's hard to imagine Altair not embarrassing them. You could make a case for Gregor (not really), but Sandor is going down, Sandor isn't as big as his brother, nor is he as strong. More skilled? Yes, but thats about it, and his skill and speed are not good enough to keep up with Altair.
You're basically saying since Altair has never fought someone as big as them, that he can't beat them, this just isn't a solid argument, I showed you someone much stronger, and taller then Altair, the guy was nearly squatting and was still taller then him, and obviously much, much bigger. For reference, Altair is 6'0.
No, that's just you trying to strawman my argument. What I'm saying is, that Altair has never fought anyone as large, as strong or as well-protected as each of the brothers individually. Combine that with great skill and yes, very good speed as well, and then double it, and you have just about what Altair is facing here. Basically, this big guy that Altair fought, wasn't as strong, as big or as well-protected as either of the brothers and he still posed a challenge to Altair (he was a boss after all).
You can find the punching through armor bit in the AC Book "The Secret Crusade", as well as the quote that he's several times stronger then the average soldier. I don't own the book myself, but here's some info on it: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Creed:_The_Secret_Crusade
Can't seem to find it, would you mind posting the exact citation if you can find it? I tried ctrl+f with "punch"/"armor"/"steel"/"through"/"strong"/"strength", no results whatsoever. I still doubt that Altair can punch through steel. He can try, but he will only end up breaking his own hand, and in any case both brothers have several layers of armor.
You simply aren't accept any arguments, you assume just because they're big and strong, that that is enough to take down Altair, except everyone has been repeatedly posting feats about him that put his skill and speed far above anyone in Game of Thrones. So basically, think of it this way, mix Arya Stark and Oberyn Martell's speed, and then put that person above Arthur Dayne in terms of skill, on top of that, this person is also taller, bigger, and stronger then your average Game of Thrones swordsman, possibly a bit below Robert Baratheon in the strength department, above Styr. You have an incredibly skilled, strong, fast combatant who has unbreakable body armor, who is stated to break armor with his punches, can take down 30+ men while being surrounded on all sides. This man is facing Sandor, who was getting dominated by a small group of 1 heavily armored Lannister and several unarmored Lannister Men, and he needed help just to not die.
Them being big and strong isn't enough, of course not. It's them being FAR bigger and stronger, with far better reach, far better armor, and numbers advantage. Speed and skill isn't everything, Altair isn't bringing anything new for them to the table. His speed isn't going to help him whatsoever when he can't deliver any damage to the brothers. They will tag him eventually, and one hit is all they need. Tell me, did Altair ever fight anyone with their level of protection? As in, full steel plate armor over chainmail and boiled leather? Forget the armor, has he ever fought anyone with a shield? He is just a faster version of everything that the brothers have ever seen since they were children. I wouldn't even put his speed far above that of the Red Viper, and in the book he was very hard pressed against the Mountain alone.
Altair may be a bit stronger than the average male but his strength is far from being a factor here. If it comes to muscle vs muscle in this fight, Altair gets stomped against either one of the two brothers individually, both of them together would be an unholy overkill. I don't think you realize how powerful these men are, his strength compared to theirs is like that of a 10 year old girl compared to Mike Tyson. Whatever strength he might have is completely moot, and people saying he is stronger than the average soldier is laughable compared to men who can cut people in half and pop human skulls into confetti. And he isn't even close to Robert, I don't think you realize how strong he was in his prime either. That's irrelevant anyway.
I don't think you realize how irrelevant is the point of him facing 30 men. He's facing 2 hunks of steel here who are strong enough to cleave him in half like a piece of butter whereas he would have to grind his teeth just to find the tiny gaps in their armor. And again, Sandor was NOT getting dominated by those guys at the inn. Not that it's very relevant here.
and plus, it's a 1-on-1 fight, first Gregor, then Sandor, not both at once
Funny, the OP says that only round 3 is a gauntlet. I would have expected that you, the guy who made this thread, would know.
Bottom line, Altair isn't bringing anything new to the table here. He is just a very fast man who can't contend with either brother in any other category and is wearing armor that doesn't even cover much of his body. They've both seen everything he can do a hundred times over in the past, while he has never seen people wearing this kind of armor and I would express my doubt on whether he has ever fought a man with a shield as well, and neither has he seen anyone nearly as big as strong as they are (maybe he's seen a couple of people who can be comparable to the Hound as far as height goes but that's it). Saying that they won't tag him is ridiculous, he isn't Spider-Man, he is just a human who is faster than most, and I would still doubt he's that much faster than people like the Red Viper, or prime Barristan. He will get tagged eventually, putting him against both brothers is honestly a stomp, I would be very generous if I even give him 1/10. I don't think you realize what he's facing here, you're horrendously overestimating him.
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