All Stars CaV: Killua Zoldyck (Defiant_Will) vs CW Reverse Flash (SupremeGeneration)

All Star Team Event // The Z-Fighters vs The Guardians

Z-Fighters Team Captain: Emperorthanos-

The Guardians Team Captain: DarthjHawk

The team that wins the best of 5 matches will come out the victor. In the event of forfeit, ghosting, or concession, the win will be given to the opposing team. There is a 9 day posting limit for each post, and a 2 day extension will only be granted if there is a request 24 hours in advance. There will be little room for exception. With that said:

All Stars CaV // Defiant_Will vs SupremeGeneration

Rules and Stipulations

• No Godspeed for Killua (But Killua gets Godspeed Lightning Feats)
• Anime and Manga Feats for Killua
• Season 1 Thawne w/ Composite Speed Application and Stat Feats
• In Character, but Serious
• Fight to K.O. or Death
• Fighters Start 50 Feet Apart
• Random Encounter
• Standard Gear

Setting // Central City

TAEP

Tag

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CW's Reverse Flash

Now, as most would expect from someone who's a bona fide speedster, speed is going to be his biggest asset in this fight. If it's not his advantage, then he's lost this before it's even begun. Killua, from the little I've seen, is a very tactical, powerful, and versatile fighter. That's not to say Eobard doesn't have a few tricks up his own sleeve, but he'll probably be pressed to win here.

Let's take a quick look at the OP before I begin:

• Season 1 Thawne w/ Composite Speed Application Feats

Basically, Thawne is restricted to his speed feats in season one. Now, he doesn't have many that don't involve scaling to S1 Barry, but he was portrayed as Barry's superior across the entire season, outspeeding him to the point of humiliation mid-way and still being his slight superior at the end of the season. For the purposes of this opener I'll just post one of his fights with 1x09 Barry - the less impressive one - and up the ante as the debate progresses. Let's get into it.

Kicking 1x09 Barry's Behind

Their battle begins with them speeding around Central City at outright insane speeds, making sharp turns, avoiding cars and the like. I'm sure if someone calced the speeds they were moving there (and it wouldn't be difficult since Central City's map is supposed to be an exact replica of Portland, Oregon IIRC) they'd be moving at bare minimum supersonic speeds. However, that's not what's really important, is it?

Note that throughout their pre-stadium race, Eobard is ahead of Barry rather casually. Once they arrive at the stadium at around 0:53, Barry doesn't even know where Thawne is. Their initial exchange in the actual fight at around 1:05 has the two running at each other, and Thawne wrecks that, tripping Barry over before the man can even make a move. Note impressively, Thawne ends up behind him when Barry finishes rolling despite Thawne having run in the complete opposite direction.

After they start running around the stadium, neither seems to have a true edge until the end where Thawne ends up rolling Barry away like a goddam ragdoll, meaning he had to grab Barry during their running. Barry gets kicked around a bit and then tries to blitz him from the standstill position, only for Eobard to dodge the attempt and counter with his own strike, and turn it into a combo, blitzing the holy crap out of Barry who is unable to do a thing about it before getting flipped over.

He later dodges a punch from Barry, counters, then speeds away from an on-looking Barry who can't even keep track of him and hits him from behind.

If you don't get the gist of it by now, Barry by 1x09 is completely and utterly helpless to Eobard's speed: he's slower in movement speed, can't even keep track of him despite his own speed, and gets utterly humiliated in close quarters. To contextualize, we're going to look at two of Barry's feats just the episode prior in 1x08.

For starters, when the shotgun gets fired, Barry is nowhere to be seen. Barry comes in from behind the bullets and before he can begin to do anything, he has to analyze the situation in exactitude in order to figure out his best course of action. Said course of action is to casually outspeed the shotgun shells - even taking the time to turn and look at them and then go way faster than them - then going sideways not once, but twice in contrast to the shells, moving two cops out of the way before the shells can reach Joe, then moving Joe himself.

According to imfbd.org - a decent site for figuring out what guns are used in movies and TV shows - the shotgun in question is a Remington 780 which has a muzzle velocity of 1550ft/s, or roughly mach 1.37. The speed by itself is inconsequential, but given Barry covered easily multiple times the distance of the shells in the same time, casually and very solidly outsped them after slowing down to take a glance, and at one point even made absolutely ZERO leeway in the direction the shells were travelling (in order to save the two cops) and they still hadn't caught up to him and then he still had time to get back on track to save Joe West, calling this feat the lowest end of hypersonic should be a very fair assessment given the circumstances.

Barry has another feat in the same episode against a Beretta 92FS which has a muzzle velocity of 381m/s or roughly mach 1.11 - so a bit slower. The feat itself is inarguably even better in the quick-thinking department, even if I basic calc it as slower than the shotgun instance. Barry comes in, again AFTER the bullet is fired. Also once more, he has to assess the situation, see what's happening, and plan rapidly accordingly.

A basic breakdown of the feat would be: Barry comes in, sees the bullet, and puts an object in it's path to stop it. Simple, right? So very wrong, actually. This feat is so much more insane than most people realize when analyzed past the surface level.

Barry came in after the bullet was fired, had to see the trajectory the bullet was fired upon and make the insane calculation that the very thin piece of metal from the stand he moved would catch the bullet just right - even a centimeter off and the consequences could be devastating. He then sped out of the building before the bullet hit the stand.

Now, let's get back to the speed of it for a second. This is a screenshot I took for reference of the distance between the lady shooting and the guy being shot. I don't know about you, and feel free to contest, but that looks no more than 10ft to me. For the sake of basic calculations, I'll call it 15ft, though. A calculation of distance (15ft) over speed (381m/s) gives us the value of .012 seconds. Even assuming Barry started from right outside the door, he travelled a good four-five times the distance of the bullet in LESS than .012 seconds, because the bullet didn't actually hit/reach the 15ft - he had to run in, go past them, get the structure, drop it in front of the guy, and he still sped out before the bullet hit. Assuming about 60ft, that's 3409mph or about mach 4.44.

Keep in mind, this is with minimum wank. I'm not taking into account the fact that it's obviously less than 15ft, that the structure was about 2ft from the guy when the bullet hit (which translates to less than .012 seconds), or the fact that the bullet had already travelled about a foot and a half before Barry even entered the store (so either add more distance on Barry's part, but that's an unknown, or calculate a new time used in the equations which ends up being way less than .012 when taking into account the structure stopping the bullet). Adding even one of these factors to the calculations pushes it into the hypersonic range.

So basically, an episode before Thawne beat the crap out him, outsped him solidly, sped away from Barry looking at him and Barry didn't see him, and just generally humiliated him, Barry had two feats in the low end of the hypersonic range. And this isn't even S1 Eobard's best performance against 1x09 Barry - far from it, in fact, but I'll save their other fight in the same episode for my next post.

Off the bat, dominating a low hypersonic speedster in the fashion that Thawne did is a pretty solid way to start off this debate. Of course none of that matters if he can't put his opponent down or take his hits, but Eobard has a bit to work with in this regard as well. Let's take a look at his 1x22 fight with the Flash, Green Arrow, and Firestorm for his best combat showing in S1.

Thawne's got a bit of everything. As you can see, he has no qualms with killing, as he's perfectly willing to murder Oliver despite the fact that it'd change history significantly. Now, he didn't actually phase into Oliver so here's him phase-killing Cisco in S1 so I don't have to hear "he didn't phase". I don't know much about Killua's stats, but I'd wager based on the fight above that Thawne can take a hit or two before going down. From there it's just a matter of phasing and it's game over.

Conclusion

I think that's good enough for an opener. In every essence of the word, dominating a low end hypersonic speedster in the manner that Eobard did is going to be difficult to overcome for anyone on this relative tier of power. What most others have in stats, Eobard has in sheer speed. He also has much better than this - in 1x09 he has an even more dominating fight against Barry and he's still superior to season finale Flash who himself has a couple of better feats.

Arm tornadoes are an amazing offensive option based on sheer distance and speed they sent Firestorm flying, but it's secondary to phasing. Aside from Barry - who he needed in order to return to his own time - Thawne has no qualms phase killing anyone. He's threatened to do it to so many people, I've lost count.

Without more information on Killua, that's my opener. You're up @defiant_will

@cocacolaman: @maestromage: @lilbroomstick:

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@supremegeneration: Solid way to start off

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I want to thank you for indulging in my yearning of another chance to rep Killua. This match that we agreed on is one I personally find interesting, but many expect to be debated in a one note fashion. So let's put a little show for them, yeah?

Opener // Killua Zoldyck

In anime and manga, youth are so often tainted by violence and malice. Killua is no exception, raised in a family of assassins. He was bred to be the heir to the Zoldyck Assassin lineage, trained to the bone since he came out the womb. Killing was all Killua knew, that is until he met his best friend Gon, who broadened his horizons in an over 300 chapter long adventure detailed in the manga of Hunter X Hunter.

Now, today, he is pitted against someone who rivals, if not surpasses his own speed. And, even worst, he can't use Godspeed! Well, in truth, the main reason this match was so appealing to me was that I have almost always used Killua in CaVs where he has a speed advantage, albeit to varying extents. This particular match up presents me with the unique opportunity to take a closer look at what Killua can do without his speed to carry him a long. In that regard, I think there are a lot of weapons in Killua's arsenal that are overlooked, ones that can prove to be useful against someone like Reverse Flash.

Character Theme // Zoldyck Family

Tricks of the Trade // Arsenal of an Assassin

As someone trained by top tier assassins of the HxH world, it stands to reason that Killua picked up a few things. In that respect, Killua is a prodigy, mastering advanced assassination arts at a very young age.

Rhythm Echo

The first one is Rhythm Echo, where, through a varying cadence of steps, the user creates afterimages to throw off their opponent:

This move is very in character for Killua, and is a perfect way to create openings for powerful attacks. To paint a better picture, visually, I will reference the anime depictions of the Rhythm Echo techniques:

1. Killua uses Rhythm Echo to bait his opponent into a kick, leaving him open to a follow up attack
2. Killua uses Rhythm Echo to trick a Chimera Ant Rhino (who has enhanced senses, mind you) charge headfirst into a tree

I don't recall Reverse Flash having anything to suggest he wouldn't fall victim to similar tactics. Baiting a full speed charge which, in turn, leaves him open to an attack. As I will get into, given the difference in physicals, Thawne simply can not afford to get tagged by Killua. And, as this post goes on, you will see how hard a task that becomes.

Claws

Killua's main form of attack are his claws. Through adjusting the anatomy of his hands, Killua can turn his fingernails into razor sharp blades. These things are sharped than knives, capable of slicing through peak humans like fruit:

He can snatch away hearts with deadly speed and precision, to the point that the heart is still beating in his hand:

These feats are pretty low end for the Claws and can do so much more with Nen enhancements. However, I don't anticipate any pushback on Killua being able to pierce Thawne given Thawne was pierced by arrows twice, the latter of which put him down.

Hatsu

Hatsu is an ability under the vast umbrella that is Nen. Now, seeing how this is merely an opener, I don't really feel the need to take a deep dive into Nen, especially since it has so many different components. So, instead of overcomplicating things, I will just talk about Killua's Hatsu. Hatsu is one's personal expression of their own Nen (life energy), which is often used to create an entirely new power. Obviously, there are a plethora of restrictions, but, long story short, Killua's background in electric torture led him to have an affinity for electric based attacks.

First off, there is "Thunderbolt," where Killua jumps into the air and strikes down with a powerful lightning attack. When used against Rammot, he was able to paralyze him along enough for Gon to fully charge an attack and near one shot him:

Now, as Supreme and I agreed, Killua will also get lightning feats from Godspeed, even if he doesn't get the full form itself. This is still a boon considering that each of Killua's attacks have the power to paralyze and stun, even against someone as overwhelmingly strong as Youpi.

Now, one thing that I should mention is that Non Nen users can not see Nen. You need to have Nen to see Nen and sense Nen. Now, an argument could be made in a cross verse battle if a character has a history of sensing supernatural forces that otherwise can not be seen. However, as far as I am aware, Thawne has no such history. So Thawne will have to deal with invisible Nen lightning bolts and strikes.

Yo-Yos

And finally, I want to talk about Killua's Yo-Yos. They may seem out of place here when talking about the "arsenal of an assassin," but allow me to shatter that perception:

Killua's Yo-Yos are made of a custom alloy, weighing about 50 kg. Killua wields them with immense levels of dexterity and precision (Vs Sub). Killua is very smart with using these Yo-Yos (but I will get more into that when I go into tactics in my next post). For now, I want to show Killua effortlessly one shotting superhuman combatants with these Yo-Yos, in his trademark cold blooded fashion:

The Zoldyck Heir // Body of an Assassin

Well, I am going to set out to do what I told you. Argue Killua as Thawne's physical superior and relative to his own speed. To be honest, based on the feats provided for Thawne thus far, I don't really think I need to go all out just yet when talking about Killua's physicals.

Strength

BoS Killua is a casual 16 tonner. As in, to enter his own home, he ahs to push open 16 ton doors. That is as casual as you can get in this regard. Now, I know you will be quick to say that lifting=/=striking, or something to that affect. However, there is a clear correlation drawn in HxH. Killua tells Gon that, since he pushed open the 4 ton gates, his push should be able to win the fight. And, it does just that:

Gon, the 4 tonner, casually pushes a man twice his size across several arena platforms and into a wall, destroying it. Without Nen enhancements, mind you. This is extremely low tier for Gon, let alone for Killua, who was literally 4 times stronger at the time. When Killua acquires Nen, he is able to open up to the 5th Gate, which makes him a bonafide casual 64 tonner (explained in the first link). Right now, the best feat you have shown is Thawne tanking falling a hundred feet onto a car. Impressive, no doubt. But I doubt that's enough to tank a full on blow from Killua. Everything I've presented is the bottom of the barrel for Killua in striking. I know you have durability feats to pull from from other seasons, so as you up the ante, I will as well.

Durability

That said, I don't really want to waste time on areas we both know aren't going to go anywhere. Thawne's only real win condition here is phasing, and until you can prove that he can harm someone who tanked a city block level explosion, it is going to stay that way:

^Note that all the trees in that scan are building sized

Speed

Alright, it is obvious that this will be the main point of contention. So I will try and put my best foot forward. Killua is a hypersonic combatant, through and through. In the above scan with the explosion, we actually see that, despite being caught off guard in an airborne position, Killua still reacted to the explosion at point blank to the point that he could block it and put up a guard:

Right after that, we get to Killua's next hypersonic feat. Where, a sniper shoots a bullet across several kilometers in seconds. The smoke in that gif is where Killua is (from the explosion that just occurred) and the bullet crosses that distance in literally a second or two:

You will notice that the smoke is literally at the horizon from a height of a hundred meters or so. For reference even from a height of 2-3 meters, the horizon extends to 5 km. If we use that absurdly low number for the distance to the horizon here, it would still be hypersonic. I can't stress enough that the distance to the horizon here dwarfs a mere 5km, which would still yield hypersonic results. Now, Killua was tagged at first because he was caught by surprise, and didn't know where he was being tagged or who was attacking him. So, Killua focused and extended his aura to 57 centimeters so, as soon as the bullet went into that area, he would know where it was coming from. So, Killua was able to react to and dodge a hypersonic bullet from 57 cm away, in what the manga describes as "superhuman reflexes and pure speed"

To react to a projectile from a 57 cm range that can cross over 5km in a second would denote reaction speeds in the 1/1000 second range. This feat would denote millisecond reaction and processing speeds. For reference, in one millisecond, sound crosses just over a foot. And Killua is handily capable of processing, reacting, and dodging within that small timeframe. Note that Killua then goes onto cross that massive distance in a short timeframe (while injured from the previous shots and losing blood).

The last thing I will touch on for now is how Killua can amp his own reaction speed. He does this by changing his aura into electricity. Rather than have to wait for his nerves to transfer information to the brain, which then signals a response, Killua shrouds his body with aura so that an electric signal is sent to muscles as soon as the aura senses an attack. In other words, it is as close as one can get to instantaneous reactions.

Killua uses this very technique to catch a dart as it materializes on his forehead. He knew where the dart was going to go, but, even using average dart throwing speed (which is a lowball since these darts were thrown by superhuman fighters), to catch it and intercept it as it just starts to puncture under a millimeters worth of skin, is irrefutably, pushing the envelope of hypersonic. This was from a heavily weakened Killua who, a page later, was unconscious in a pool of his own blood due to the damage he had taken up until that point. So, there you have it. Back to back to back hypersonic showings, only enhanced by Killua's Hatsu being able to further enhance his operational speed. The nature of his Hatsu is to make his body move in perfect tandem to his own reaction and processing speed so naturally, they should be relative.

Now, I put Killua above CW Flash's low hypersonic showings, but below Thawne given how far Thawne is above him. That said, Killua's Hatsu should more than make up for this. Gon used a far lesser variation of aura sensory, where he tried to use his Aura sensory to counter an FTE blitz. While it failed on his first attempt, Gon was able to pull it off later on in the fight. To repeat, Gon was able to land a clean shot on Knuckle with his Aura sensory, the same Knuckle who absolutely clowns on Gon in speed, to the point that Gon admits Knuckle would toy with him:

But, after Gon masters his Nen sensory to counter attack Knuckle, the speed difference plays a little factor. And what Gon did was use basic Nen sensory, nowhere near what Killua did, where he altered his anatomical functions to automatically work with his aura sensory. Which is consistent with Killua's own Nen control and skill being stated to match Bisky, their trainer. A vast speed disparity is something Killua should have no trouble dealing with someone like Thawne. This is one of those matches where you are going to need more than speed to win, and I am not quite sure Thawne has that.

The Battle // What's to Come

I will close out this opener by talking about the battle at hand. I think that Rhythm Echo lends itself perfectly to an opponent like Thawne. Thawne will resort to a high speed, charging blitz and ended up just hitting an afterimage. This would likely provide a window for Killua to oneshot Thawne. Alternatively, Killua can tag Thawne with invisible Nen lightning strikes, whether it be from mid range or in an airborne position. This is sure to tag Thawne and, once again, leave an opening for a killing blow.

Before I go, I want to address phasing. The elephant in the room. Now, I will address Thawne's character and Killua's tactics and the more psychological aspects of that in my next post. For now, I want to get a little more information. Thawne's phasing works by vibrating his body at a certain frequency to "phase" through his opponents and oneshot them. Killua seems to be a special case though. Because Killua's body is enveloped in Nen, his life force, a spiritual energy that isn't as cut and dry as the things CW Speedsters have phased through. At a conceptual level, it is hard for me to grasp Thawne phasing through something as abstract as life force. If you want to look at the pseudo science level, Nen's physical properties are just as ambiguous. Killua describes it as a "weightless suit":

And, honestly, Killua was right on the money with that. Nen is such an ambiguous and abstract concept that it can only be described in a borderline oxymoronic fashion. Now, I am not directly opposed to the idea that Thawne can literally phase through life energy. But I would need some sort of proof. From my research, I have only seen Speedsters phase through humans, Kryptonians and objects. But, Nen is nothing like solid matter, even in the vague sense. So, how exactly does Thawne vibrate through what is essentially just spiritual energy? Its metaphysical nature makes me question how viable it is to argue phasing. Have CW Speedsters phased through spiritual energies, or something to this affect? Phasing through solid matter is one thing, but phasing through metaphysical spiritual energy would require a different degree of "phasing." One that actually needs showings to back up, in my personal opinion.

@deathhero61: @laskt: @geekryan: @hittheassasin:

Alright, this debate is rolling along! It seems that we agree speed is going to be a huge part of this debate (and of course, with a speedster in the fray, why wouldn't it be?) and you have a vast arsenal at your disposal that admittedly could spell disaster for Thawne - if it happened to hit. That said, the speed disparity might be more than you believe. Because of that, I'll touch over it first.

Speed

Yes it deserves such a big header leave me alone

You contend that Killua is faster than Barry and slower than Thawne. I don't know how much I agree with that. Obviously I agree he's slower than Thawne - in fact feats in this post will only widen the gap significantly - but Killua being faster than Barry is what I question. He might have a higher reflexive speed than Barry, but can Killua actively move his entire body at those speeds for sustained periods of time?

I certainly agree he might be able to react to the Thawne presented in my opener (the one in this post... less so) with a high level of difficulty, but fighting at those speeds is a different matter entirely. As you'll see, a recurring idea throughout my post is going to be the difference between reacting to Thawne and actually fighting against him. You'll see what I meant after this little section.

Now, if you'll recall in my first post I mentioned that Thawne fought 1x09 Barry twice? Let's look at that second one.

Thawne Kicking 1x09 Barry's Ass... Again

Surely now you begin to realize just how wide the gap is here. Thawne is faster than Killua on a solid level. Is it one of his only advantages? Yes. But he's a speedster - by nature, speed is one of the only advantages he's going to need in a fight anyways.

Now keep in mind, speedsters are actively moving, processing, and thinking at these speeds. These aren't reactive/reflexive moves like blocking explosions, moving out of the way of sniper rifles, or plucking a dart out of your forehead. Speedsters legitimately fight at these speeds. Reacting once or twice isn't going to be enough in this scenario. You're not only fighting someone that can move at high speeds when needed, you're fighting someone who fights at such high speeds all the time, and there's a definitive difference between the two. There's a reason they're called speedsters, and this is it.

Addressing Killua's Arsenal

Rhythm Echo

Claws

Hatsu

Yo-Yos

Addressing Physicals

Killua's Striking vs Eobard's Durability

Eobard's Damage Output vs Killua's Durability

Conclusion

Killua's a tough customer, no doubt, but Thawne has what it takes to win here. He's faster - very solidly IMO - and even with all of Killua's Nen tricks he's still going to find it incredibly difficult to keep up. There's blitzing the crap out of 1x09 Barry and then there's appearing MFTE to Barry to the point he didn't even realize Eobard was speed miraging. Killua might be able to keep up with the former, but I really, really doubt the latter. Furthermore, while you've proven Killua can react at insanely high speeds, you've yet to show me Killua actively fighting at them for sustained periods of time.

All of Killua's tricks are either useless due to the speed disparity, can be turned against him, or he can take. I think I've established Eobard's durability enough that, as of feats in your opener, he should be fine taking a few hits and then killing Killua. Phasing is still an option - unless you can prove Nen operates at a different frequency than the rest of the world - and unless Killua has a better counter to that, then it's an easy win right there. Aside from that, physical parity to Barry (one-shotting Ralph and Grodd) as well as his own feats (punching through the absurdly durable, upgraded ATOM suit with very, very little build-up) should ensure that he's got the striking to put Killua down regardless.

Invisible Hatsu shenanigans should have some doubt given the Speed Force basically is lightning, and that's what Eobard is connected to. Like I said, I'll leave it up to the voters, but of course we can go our rounds with it. At the end of the day, I think Eobard goes at Killua for a bit then phases his heart out. It's pretty clear cut. And again, Eobard has an advantageous performance against a Barry with even better feats than the one I've presented (though not as dominating as the Speed Mirage thing).

Forgot to tag.

Been kinda slacking recently, but I do plan on posting for this

Rebuttal // Art of the Kill

Speed vs Hatsu

To no one's surprise, this will probably be one of the main points of contention. However, I definitely see Thawne as faster than this version of Killua. The objective of the speed section in my opener was to show that Killua won't at all be a statue to Thawne. My main point of emphasis was on how Killua can compensate for that speed gap with his Hatsu sensory amping his reaction and operational speed. You seemed to ignore this very point, for some reason. Which is a perplexing move on your part, because Gon's lesser Nen sensory allows him to trade blows with the same person that would toy with him in speed.

Nen and experience are factors that are consistently portrayed as the perfect compensation for speed disparities. In fact, HxH has its own version of a speedster in the Chimera Ant, Cheetu. And, despite boasting a massive speed advantage over everyone else he has fought, he was convinced that speed alone was not enough:

For context, this was after Knuckle and Morel (characters relative to Killua) had quickly adapted to Cheetu's speed. They were noted to adjust to Cheetu's speed in a short amount of time, and even Cheetu notes that they couldn't even follow him with their eyes just prior.

And make no mistake, Cheetu is far faster than both parties, able to MFTE blitz both of them in the most embarrassing fashion:

Both of the above instances were accomplished by the bare bones of Hunters with Nen mastery and experience, peers to Killua himself. In the context of dealing with faster opponents, Killua has both of those traits on top of possessing a Hatsu specifically tailored towards these situations. I don't think you fully recognize the significance of this, a suspicion confirmed by this specific question:

He might have a higher reflexive speed than Barry, but can Killua actively move his entire body at those speeds for sustained periods of time?

Killua's reflexive speed being higher than Barry is all that I really need. With his Hatsu, Killua's movements are in tandem with his aura sensory. This allowed him to grab the dart before it could cross under a millimeters worth of distance the very instant his aura picked up on it:

Essentially making Killua's reactions = his movement speed. It isn't sustained, but it doesn't need to be. This is meant as a defensive technique more than anything else. So, saying this:

I certainly agree he might be able to react to the Thawne presented in my opener (the one in this post... less so) with a high level of difficulty, but fighting at those speeds is a different matter entirely.

Is a moot point. Killua's Hatsu would literally make his reactions and combat speed intertwined. As Killua's aura picks up on Thawne, be it his malevolent intent or just physical contact, Killua will retaliate the instant the aura recognizes it. Gon did a similar thing with Knuckle, but the aura still sent the info directly through Gon's nervous system, which would make the technique far less effective than Killua's. Still, both techniques can close massive speed gaps.

Killua would need to be akin to a statue compared to Thawne in order for this argument to be completely invalid. But, not even you seem to subscribe to that argument, and rightfully so. Thawne didn't even statue Barry, and Killua should be faster than him. So, I am not seeing a concrete blitz taking place, even if Thawne has a speed advantage.

A More Realistic Look at Reverse Flash

The "Phase Blitz"

With speed addressed, I want to segue into your argumentative portrayal of Thawne. Which seems very unrealistic with consideration for what Thawne has done. Thawne is in character here, not out of character or even bloodlusted. Considering that you have been arguing Thawne will just blitz and phase kill Killua since your opener, nay, since this CaV's very inception, I feel like that needs to be clarified.

Let me be blunt. Thawne isn't this cold blooded killing machine that goes around phase kill blitzing his opponents. When you look at Thawne's fights, this is painfully obvious. Even omitting contextualized exceptions like Barry, this assertion still bares canonical consistency. The only time Thawne has swiftly ended a fight with what can be interpreted as a phase blitz is one you argue that Thawne didn't even phase:

Now, you might be thinking he phased through in order to that, but note the hole in the ATOM suit afterwards. Also note there was no hole in Rex Tyler after killing him, and this takes place in the same series and same season as the ATOM feat, which carries better intent for this feat, because there is but one instance of Thawne's phase kill (among many, many phase kills) leaving a bloody mess out of someone but it's in another series and a different set of seasons entirely. Other than that, no other holes, so I stand by saying Eobard punched through the suit.

This is made even worst by the fact that Thawne admitted he should've done that "ages ago." So, no matter how you want to spin it, for Thawne to abuse his speed to that degree is clearly a rare occurrence. That is not to say that Thawne never uses phasing in combat. However, it is often not used in tandem with his speed. In fact, Thawne is far more likely to grapple with his opponent with one hand and try to phase kill them with the other hand. It is for this reason that Thawne has rarely killed anyone of note with this ability before some form of interference, notable examples including:

1. Vs Arrow- Tackles Oliver to the ground and pins him. Only then does he vibrate his other hand and attempt to phase kill him.
2. Vs Vixen- Gets Amaya into a chokehold. Only then does he vibrate his other hand and attempt to phase kill her.

I mean consider this. Thawne is literally a speedster of his verse. He dwarfs the majority of the other characters in this regard. So, isn't it telling that, despite possessing the ability to blitz most dozens of times over, he has never effectively phase blitzed someone, or even attempted it?

Will Thawne make use of phasing here? Sure. Will it be by way of a blitz? Hell no. If Thawne's history has shown us anything, it is that such a scenario is wildly out of character for him. Like everyone else, Thawne will likely attempt to grapple Killua and then try and phase kill him if he gets Killua into a chokehold or pins him down.

So, Supreme, you are left with the infamous "so what?" question. For, I have conceded that Killua is at a disadvantage as far as raw speed is concerned. But, so what? Thawne is use to having far greater speed advantages, and has still rarely resorted to phase killing his opponents with a blitz. So, how exactly do you plan on exploiting this speed advantage?

Spatial Awareness

Before you answer that question, I'd like to remind you that, even in the face of LA peak humans, Thawne is not exactly untaggable. I do not say that to lowball Thawne's speed, mind you. I am onboard with the speed scaling you have presented thus far. However, I would be remiss to not talk about Thawne's horrible spatial awareness. It is this very Achilles heel that has allowed someone like Oliver Queen to tag Thawne with arrows. Not because Thawne is arrow speed, but because Thawne's cocky and arrogant personality impairs his combative focus. Let me provide a few examples as to what I mean, here:

I've already shown Oliver tagging Thawne from behind with an arrow, but let's even go beyond that. During the final battle of Season 1, Barry lures Thawne to the top of a large building, setting up for a fire blast from Firestorm from behind.

In later seasons, this sentiment is made quite consistent. Where Thawne's cocky attitude is literally met with a sucker punch by the very character he casually blitzes towards the season's end. Or, when Thawne is tagged by Amaya's energy blaster, in a similar vain to what Oliver did with his arrows. Suffice to say, Thawne is not exactly the best when it comes to being combatively acute. Which has created openings for even subsonic characters to tag him. This is also important to note because Killua's fighting style incorporates exploiting such weakpoints to his advantage.

The best example in this regard was when Killua created a weakspot to bait out a reaction from his opponent, Sub. This reaction, in turn, created a blindspot for Killua to exploit with his Yo Yos, tagging Sub from behind by curving it against a nearby tree:

Thawne has been tagged a notable amount of times by characters who don't even surpass the speed of sound, all by abusing his blindspots and lack of battle perception. As such, the notion that Killua won't tag Thawne at all, or even not very often, is ridiculous. Killua not only holds the massive edge as far as raw speed is concerned (in comparison to the aforementioned subsonic characters), but also boasts the tactical edge to put this to masterful execution.

Killua's Arsenal vs Thawne

Ryhthm Echo

To be honest, I don't think you addressed this ability in a satisfying way. For starters, Thawne would not know which one was the real Killua off the bat. Thawne would actually have to tag the afterimages first to reveal it as a dud. And, in that moment when Thawne is testing to see if it is real or not, Killua will strike.

Any employ of the Rhythm Echo technique I see going down similar to Barry's fight with Multiplex - taking a plethora of them down, but looking for the prime, aka original. This is a strategy explicitly highlighted by Wells at 2:04 and by Caitlin literally seconds earlier.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. Why are you using a specific tactic Barry came upwith and using it for Thawne. Just because Thawne and Barry both have super speed doesn't mean they are going to apply it the exact same way in the exact same scenarios. They scale in stats, obviously. But scaling tactics and battle ingenuity is a very slippery slope, at least when without explicit evidence.

At the speeds that Eobard thinks, once he realizes that it's an after image, he'll just blitz them all to kingdom come. You bait a full speed charge, sure, but the charge is going to keep going. Obviously he doesn't have knowledge, but given Thawne's ability to think at the speeds he fights, reacts, and moves, he should have no problem keeping a full speed charge.

Well, I've already outlined my problems with your portrayal of Thawne in the last section. I want to reaffirm that the moment when Thawne realizes it is an afterimage is an opening Killua can exploit. I've shown far slower characters exploiting similar openings to great affect against Thawne. I don't see why this is any different. Especially given Thawne's already established underwhelming perceptive skills.

Claws

It is good that you agree that Killua can pierce Thawne, and kill him. And, while a fairly minor point, I'd like to clarify that this:

He was pierced by arrows, sure, but that's not what put him down

Is not what I meant. The overall point was that Thawne was pierced by the arrows, which allowed the nanites to work in the first place. Your whole tangent about the nanites disabling his power is literally not relevant when talking about Thawne's piercing durability. Again, a minor point in the grand scheme of things, but your refutation rubbed me the wrong way.

Another thing I'd like to note is that this:

But again, only grazes given the speed disparity.

Is overwhelmingly unrealistic. Killua's claws "grazing" Thawne will still deal lethal damage. Killua's piercing potency is high enough to cut a tree in half along with tearing off the head and arms of an enemy, with just the shockwave alone:

As such, even a glancing blow can prove to be deadly for Thawne.

Hatsu

I'm going to be honest, the argument made for Thawne seeing Nen was a massive stretch on your part.

However, they're all connected to the Speed Force, itself a metaphysical energy in nature that exists outside the Multiverse, as explained during Crisis On Infinite Earths. It's not an ability that's been brought up outside of seeing Savitar - someone that, before escaping his Speed Force prison, could only be seen by speedsters (at that point only Barry and then for a very brief period as he had just gotten powers, Wally, as well as eventually Jesse Quick). That could potentially count for something, especially seeing as Killua's Hatsu is lightning.

Supreme, what does this really prove? Barry saw Savitar due to their shared connection to the Speed Force. True as that may be, that hardly proves that Barry can see Nen. Being able to perceive things that only a Speedster can perceived does not translate to Barry being able to perceive an invisible spiritual energy, completely isolated from the Speed Force.

What you have to understand is that Nen and the Speed Force are hardly comparable in this context. With the Speed Force, Speedsters are connected to one another by a unifying energy. They are parts of a whole, in that regard. It is for this reason that only speedsters can see the imprisoned Savitar, since they are all connected to the Speed Force (including Savitar). In other words, seeing Savitar does not denote any spiritual sensory capabilities. It is merely an exemplification of how interconnected speedsters and their connection to the Speed Force. When Barry saw Savitar, it wasn't because he has the super power of seeing invisible, metaphysical energies. It is because he is connected to the Speed Force. It is a subtle, but profound difference to make here. Because Nen is an entirely separate entity than the Speed Force. So, how can you really prove that Thawne can see it?

This might sound convenient, but of all Hatsu's to pull from, Killua's lightning might be the one that speedsters can see. The Speed Force's motif is lightning. The inside of the Speed Force is literally a lightning storm, at least when the sentient Speed Force doesn't change the environment. That image is what Cisco saw when he tried to reach Barry when he was inside the Speed Force in S2. It's consistent with when Barry went into it in S3, a lightning storm - even when he landed and the Speed Force landscape changed to suit him, it was filled with lightning outside.

Like, more than a motif, the Speed Force is lightning. When Earth-90 Barry Allen sacrificed himself during Crisis, he told Earth-1/our Barry to "keep riding the lightning" - this being a guy who's been the Flash for literally decades. Barry was struck by lightning to receive his powers because the Speed Force chose him. When he escaped the Speed Force at the start of S4, he escaped from a portal filled with lightning. When he entered the Speed Force to stop a nuke from blowing up Central City, it chased him in the form of lightning. When the Spectre boosted Barry's powers in Crisis, it "poisoned" the Speed Force - shown by green lightning. When Savitar opened a portal into the Speed Force, it was leaking lightning. I can provide videos, gifs, and episode numbers for all of these.

...

I am at a loss for words. Really, I don't understand what you are getting at here. Since the Speed Force has lightning, and since Killua uses lightning, Thawne can see it? That's the logic we are going with here? Because, that doesn't register as logical to me, Supreme. I've already explained that a Speedster seeing the Speed Force is different from seeing Nen. I mean Speed Force Lightning and Nen lightning are literally made up of two, completely different energies to begin with. So, drawing some vague correlation between them (they are both lightning!!!) for your convenience makes no sense at all.

At the very least there's grounds that Thawne might be able to see it, seeing as he's connected to the Speed Force and created the Negative Speed Force to also tap into so that Barry couldn't detect him time travelling. He's still connected to both, though. As for actually taking it? He's already phased through electricity before, immediately after regaining his powers. Like, the electricity came at him and he got his powers before it reached him.

There are no grounds. Not without some serious mental gymnastics and reaching. However, even if we assume that Thawne can see Killua's lightning, he definitely can't react to it. You have shown low double digit mach speeds for Thawne, arguing him at Mach 10 ish. Well, Killua's lightning has statued people in base Killua's speed tier, Knuckle and Youpi (who should be faster than Killua in all honesty). Below, we see Killua fire off a lightning bolt from dozens of feet in the air, tagging Youpi before he can connect his punch. In other words, before Youpi's attack could cross about a foot's worth of distance:

This would put the speed of Killua's lightning attacks well beyond Mach 10, by virtue of statuing characters that are relative (in Youpi's case, arguably superior) to the Mach 8-9 base Killua.

Now, I realize the Speed Force thing might not be convincing to some. I'd like to leave it up to the voters - we can argue on it back and forth, of course, but ultimately the voters can decide. Now another interesting tidbit about speedsters and lightning-esque things is their ability to absorb electricity to go faster, stated by Barry and supported by Caitlin in that video, and then put into practice. This allowed him to follow DeVoe through a breach that he wasn't able to before - because they close in 3 picoseconds. This is something that could be easily exploited to make this match-up a straight up mismatch.

I don't find this argument the most convincing. Mainly because Killua's Hatsu is not actual electricity. It is still Nen, it is still life force. It is just Killua manipulated the quality of his aura to assume electric properties. But, at a fundamental level, it is retains its spiritual properties. Being a transmuter, Killua only really changes the quality of his aura to that of electricity . Nevertheless, it is still Nen. So, for this argument to work, you would have to prove that Thawne can literally absorb life energy. Which, suffice to say, isn't exactly how Thawne's powers work.

There also becomes the issue of potency. Where you would have to prove that Thawne could harmlessly absorb Killua's Hatsu attacks, which Killua can use at the cellular level, targeting individual cells:

Yo-Yos

Not much to say here. I've already gone into how they can be used to take advantage of Thawne's blindspots and compensate for his speed advantage. They have great range, and Killua is pretty damn dexterous with them to boot:

The striking power Killua can dish out with these Yo-Yos would obviously be relative to his own strength given how basic physics works. And I will cover Killua's physicals in the following section.

Comparing Physicality

A Matter of Consistency - Thawne's Durability

The physical feats posted for Thawne are pretty good, far better than I expected. Unfortunately, they are far removed from anything I'd consider remotely consistent. I will try and break this down piece by piece

One-shots Ralph Dibny aka Elongated Man, who can tank explosions, going as far as even ones stated capable of wiping out a city block - all while more than likely holding back, as this is his friend doing something he deems a mistake, not his enemy.

Right off the bat, we are treading dangerous waters. Taken at face value, you would be arguing that Barry's striking strength is well over city block busting. Surely you see the inconsistencies with arguing Barry that high in striking. Cause that feat took place in the very season where Flash spent a whole episode fighting against a metahuman who manipulates museum artifacts, one of which no sold his punch. And where Ralph himself was put down for a good period of time after getting hit by a sentient museum knight statue. There is a reason why Barry's strength isn't exactly his main selling point. Live Action Peak Humans retain consciousness even after Barry lands dozens of blows on them. You can say he has gotten faster, but that hardly affects his strength. Unless you want to do good old kinetic energy calculations, and find the amount of force Barry strikes with while running, I don't think you want to go down the road of "greater speed = greater strength," especially without canonical backing.

Heck, there is canonical evidence that contradicts that premise. Namely during the Elseworlds crossover event, where Oliver and Barry switch powersets/abilities. As in Oliver gets Barry's speed (Season 5 Flash, mind you) and Barry gets Oliver's skills and experience. They are drugged and not holding back, and yet they equally trade blows and then both get oneshotted by Batwoman:

Not only does that reinforce the underwhelming physicals that comes with being a speedster, but it also contradicts the notion that greater speed=greater power. Oliver is far far faster than S1 Barry and is still trading blows and even one shotted by LA Street levelers. I mean, to be honest, there are too many anti feats/low showings in this verse to go through the list. But, I think it should be well established how outlying a city block level Barry really is, or even a city block level Ralph for that matter. The city block premise stems from an empty threat made by a common crook, and the explosion itself is nowhere near city block in scale. So the foundation for your scaling is shaky in the first place.

One-shot Gorilla Grodd in Grodd's own mindscape - Mindscape feats can be called into question, but getting one-shot in your own mindscape shouldn't be IMO. Grodd being capable of fighting King Shark, even being thrown through metal and eating multiple punches at a time.

No offense, but this scaling is absolutely horrible. Since when does oneshotting someone in a telepathic plane indicate striking? Since when does overwhelming someone in a mental battle indicate striking? This level of reaching makes no logical sense, and it only gets worst when you look at what they've actually done. By this logic, Barry would be stronger than King Shark, one shotting the very Grodd that Shark struggled with. Which is so far from the truth it isn't even funny:

^King Shark chokes the life out of Barry with one arm and Barry can't break free from his grasp.

In Crisis on Earth X, during a big battle, he was caught by Supergirl and thrown across the room - Kara being capable of lifting this giant structure into space and stopping this giant ship that was flying at full speed. Now yes, that's strength, but that's what a throw would require. At even a miniscule fraction of that strength, Thawne surviving that throw and recovering in slightly under a minute then swiftly stomping S4 Barry (albeit off-screen) is pretty insane. Again, Eobard was knocked out by this throw, as he was off for a while and he would've returned if he could've, especially with his speed, but the recovery time is what matters here.

This means nothing to me. What you showed was Thawne getting one shotted by a throw from Supergirl, and you can't even quantify the amount of force Kara used there. So what is the point in showing this? You can't objectively tell me how much strength Kara used/how durable this would make Thawne. Just assumptions, which is nowhere near enough for me and shouldn't be enough for you.

He then gets hit in the head by Barry and Nora's double punch after they'd gained more than a fair share of momentum. This feat is interesting, as it appears to be a direct callback to the pair destroying a falling satellite.

You just love to see it. Love to see you scale that double punch to the force that destroyed a falling satellite, where Barry had to run across a city just to gather up the necessary momentum to achieve this feat. Like really, come on man. A "wink, wink" moment calling back to Iris and Barry teaming up doesn't discount the fact that Barry did not gather up anywhere near the same momentum against Thawne as he did in that satellite scene.

I could go on and on, believe me. But the remaining feats you posted aren't even relevant. Trading blows with Ray in his suit is just not enough to deal with Killua, as I will prove here:

Killua's Striking Power

I already showed you Killua's most casual strength being in the 64 tonner tier (he exerts that much force to just enter his house lol). Well, let's up the ante. After removing Illumi's Needle, which essentially served as a mental handicap, Killua went on to blitz Rammot, tearing off his head and crushing it:

Keep in mind that Rammot had Nen here, which would boost his stats. Important to note because a nenless Rammot tanked Gon's Jajanken:

While Rammot was in excruciating pain afterwards, the fact remains that his body was still in tact and he retained consciousness after tanking a Jajanken with zero Nen defenses to fall back on. Before I get into the power of the Jajanken, I'd like to address potential skepticism on Killua's scaling to the Jajanken. Needleless Killua should reasonably scale above Rammot-fight Gon from an in verse perspective as well:

1. Gon, at that time, had not yet completed Bisky's Nen training while this version of Killua had completed and mastered it.
2. Despite Gon being an Enhancer, Killua has shown that he can one shot an enraged Gon(meaning Nen amp and everything) with a Nen enhanced strike. For reference, Gon (without rage amps, mind you) has retained consciousness when he blocked a volley from Razor, which was stated to be as powerful as his own Jajanken
3. Removing the needle actually gave Killua an "amp," which is supported by how Killua effortlesly blitzed and one shotted Rammot despite Rammot knocking him around just prior. Rammot even became scared the instant Killua was freed from the needles control

So, just how powerful is Gon's Jajanken? Pretty damn powerful. In its elementary stages of development, Gon was still able to make house sized rocks burst apart with a single punch, ragdolling each and every piece of debris a dozen or so feet away. And with consideration for the toughness of rock, this feat becomes even more impressive.

Later on we see Gon's Jajanken shake a massive tree. The durability of this tree is such that it has withstood numerous blows from Nen users with no visible or long lasting damages. In other words, the tree is clearly made of highly durable wood, which would make shaking it to such a radical extent even more impressive.

This tree is easily a city block sized mass. As you can see, it dwarfs the surrounding trees, which are building sized in height. Even the base of the tree is that size. So shaking it is a great feat. Even more impressive, however, is when Gon says he held back for fear of hurting the tree should he go all out:

Gon's Jajanken in Greed Island was easily city block level, and he has gotten far more powerful between then and when he tagged Rammot with this attack. Heck, even with a chunk of his arm blown off by Genthru, and being overall heavily injured, Gon's Jajanken could do this:

Nenless Rammot took a Jajanken far more powerful than these attacks. So Rammot with Nen should handily be in the city block level spectrum. And Killua tore him apart with relative ease. That is the level of strength Thawne must contend with here. And, as I said, the force behind Killua's Yo-Yos would obviously scale, if that even needs to be clarified. Thawne is nowhere near this level consistently.

Thawne's Offensive vs Killua

On the flipside, in terms of striking, Thawne is not doing anything to Killua. I already showed a city block level attack that Killua shrugged off. Even punching through Ray's armor is woefully inadequate, especially when you only have tanking missiles and high falls to show for his durability. And, of course, scaling to Barry gets you to the same, LA Peak Human tier of physicality. This is consistent with Thawne's showings as well. Where in LA peak humans survive a brutal assault from Thawne and his army of time remnants and characters far less durable than Killua (ATOM and Steel) eating his attacks.

So, as I've said from the very beginning. Thawne's only win condition here is phasing. In character, he almost always resorts to grappling with his opponent and then phasing them when they can't escape. Thawne does not use blitzes and phasing in tandem. As such, given that Killua dwarfs Thawne in raw physicality, the likelihood of phasing even becoming relevant here is zero to none. But, for the sake of argument, I'd like to clarify what I meant:

For starters, asking for a phase through "metaphysical spiritual energy" is, at least to me, way too specific an ask. Through something non-solid, say like an energetic force field or something, sure, but spiritual energy? We both know that's a reach, not just in this debate, but for any debate IMO.

For one, yes, speedsters vibrate by frequency. This poses a backwards question I myself can ask you, however: can you prove that Nen operates at a different frequency than the rest of the world? I'm assuming a composite verse in this scenario, so unless Nen vibrates at a different frequency than Killua himself or everything else around the world, phasing should work regardless.

If you want phasing through non-physical stuff, I already showed Eobard himself phasing through electricity. That's definitely something non-solid. Yet another option for Eobard would be to - assuming you argue Nen has a different frequency, which good luck by the way - simply change the frequency he phases at until he finds the right one. I personally don't think it comes to that, but I'll see what you think.

I'd agree that asking for a specific feat for intangibility is a little too specific. But, you have to understand that speedsters don't have bona fide intangibility. They aren't like Kity Pryde, for example. Speedsters phasing is literally just using super speed to vibrate their molecules at the right frequency. As such, I question if said vibrations would extend to abstract concepts like one's life force. You asking me about the vibrational frequency of Nen, the literal embodiment of one's life force, is also questionable because it assumes Nen conforms to those physics in the first place. Since my opener, I've established Nen as a physical anomaly through the oxymoronic and vague descriptions given of its actual properties, and its variable make ups (made even worst by the fact that Killua is a Transmuter).

Think about it this way. If I was against Kity Pryde, I would have to prove that Nen bypasses intangibility, which is its own power that is fairly clear cut. I mean it is literally the power to not be touched, so asking for niche examples doesn't make sense, generally. However, with Thawne, his "intangibility" is just vibrating really fast. It isn't universal in its application, and Barry's phasing has been hindered by Devoe's forcefield in Season 4 (he did phase through it after pushing himself, but it is still notable). Intangibility, by its very definition, requires me to prove Nen can bypass it. However, vibrating fast, due to its mechanics/shown limitations, makes me question if it can interact with spiritual energies and concepts. The scope of its applications is contingent on me assuming that the "frequency of air" can interact with metaphysical energies.

That said, even in my opener, I've established this as a secondary argument. As I said, the bigger fish to fry would be Thawne using this ability effectively in the first place. Though, I would be lying if I said I didn't still hold skepticism as to its effectiveness.

Summary

• Killua's sensory/Hatsu can compensate for speed gap (Gon's inferior Nen sensory abilities has allowed him to fight on even ground with someone that dwarfs him in speed)
• Killua's tactics via exploiting blindspots/general battle ingenuity can also compensate for speed gap against Thawne, which has historically proven successful for far slower characters
• Thawne has no answer for Killua's lightning or Rhythm Echo
• Outside of phasing, Thawne can not hurt Killua at all (and even phasing is questionable)
• Killua dwarfs Thawne in physicality and can one shot with claws or just a strike
• Thawne only uses phasing in character by way of grappling maneuvers, and has never used it in tandem with a blitz, nowhere near enough to be reliable here

Amazing response. TAEP

@supremegeneration bump