All-Star CaV | Thedailybagel (Hulk) vs HigherPower (Asura) - Closed. Victor: HigherPower

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vsw

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@streak619 said:

Aight, let's get this over with. My vote goes to Vulcan. He convinced of three things;

  1. Asura fodderises Hulk in speed and Hulk is never so much as touching him.
  2. Asura is strong enough, such that with the spamming of strikes as well as the nonsensical stamina, he can and will overwhelm Hulk's durability and regen
  3. Asura is durable to tank Hulk's thunderclaps since I was convinced of the first point

The speed debate

Oh man... I have so much to say it's almost enough to discourage me from voting...

Almost

Vulcan absolutely dominated this debate. Across the debate, he provided multiple sub relativistic laser feats demonstrating consistency and brought up Destructor Asura(?) and his MFTL feat for consistency. The only fault I could find here was the fact that he went from LS to relativistic to sub rel, Vulcan shifting your argument from LS - sub rel is indicative of how (not) prepared you were. The fact that you gradually jumped down entire tiers in speed really dents your credibility and persuasiveness. From what I can tell it probably contributed a good amount to the disparity in the vote score. I think it wouldn't have been so big had you started with sub rel from the very start.

Anyways, onto the actual point. Vulcan's arguments convinced simply because of

  1. How solid the feats themselves were
  2. How absolutely no valid counter was provided.

Now I'm sure everyone, including TDB, would agree that the feats itself were incredibly clear cut and explicit and objective, in the context that there were no assumptions, no appeals to probability, no subjective scaling. It's everything you want speed feats to be. Even TDB himself attacked a very fundamental aspect of the feat. The feat was otherwise clear cut.

Now I'm sure the second point caught your eye, as it better have had TDB. Your counters can be summed up in 2 general points

  1. The unreliability of laser speed feats.
  2. Anti-feats conceived from estimated timeframes of actions/fights based on events occurring at or around the fighters in the background

The first point absolutely ruined the fun of the debate for me greatly. Because of how falaciously misinformed you were regarding this topic. You said, in your opener;

No Caption Provided

What you're basically saying is, syllogistically;

  • Observation #1: Hulk has dodged lasers
  • Observation #2: Hulk is not light speed.
  • Observation #3: Asura has dodged lasers
  • Inference: Asura is not light speed

"Come on man, Hulk has dodged lasers but is he LS? No, so Asura's laser feats don't make him LS either!"

This is the literal definition of an association fallacy. It is akin to saying:

  1. Observation #1: Hitler was a man
  2. Observation #2: Hitler was evil
  3. Observation #3: Mr. X is a man
  4. Inference: Mr. X is evil.

Switch out men for dodging lasers, evil for light speed, Hitler for Hulk and Mr. X for Asura and we have your argument. Equally ridiculous, objectively.

The reason Hulk dodging lasers and still not being LS isn't primarily because lasers are unreliable, it's because Hulk is not consistently that fast, by any stretch of the imagination as you literally conceded. That doesn't mean Asura's laser feats are unreliable suddenly either. And Vulcan rightfully brought this up as well;

No Caption Provided

End of that conversation. Further part of the whole "Lasers are shite" argument, you say;

My problem with you using lasers as your argument is that the entertainment medium has everyone dodge lasers all the time

From this statement, I can tell that you don't read/debate;

  • manga
  • manhwa/manua
  • Any Asian fictional action based content, really.

Because it is objectively wrong to say what you did about most of the characters in these media. Lasers aren't big in eastern content unless it is mecha or something. That is a fact, take it from someone who (very very much like your opponent) has the credibility to flat out deny this nonsense because of actual experience with these media. Vulcan, who is arguably the most credible and meritorious user in the entire site, in this regard is infinitely more credible than you, who has no right to make such statements when your prime experience lies within one sphere of media.

News flash; not everything works like Marvel/DC. Different media are fundamentally different because diversity in culture is a thing. Laser feats are not as common, nor irrelevant, nor with such a terrible track record of consistency compared to Marvel and DC, in eastern media.

And oh man, don't even get me started on the nonsensical amount of appeals to incredulity fallacies riddled all over your post TDB;

No Caption Provided

There's absolutely no excuse for such blatant attempts to appeal to incredulity and absurdity, it's unbecoming of someone who was voted into the HoF and the top ten of the site.

Furthermore, your so-called anti-feats also tie into this as well. Things like talking, gravity, background events that happen in real time (like breeze blowing and trees swaying or shit like that) are also tropes that easter on a majority use to increase the appeal of scenes, it's a quirk that almost all of them (I've yet to come across a single Asian scriptwriter/mangaka who doesn't use them) use. It's something that absolutely infests all Asian action media, partly because Asian writers are more lax about how physically and scientifically consistent a scene is or they simply don't or both. Similar to how the concept of characters not using their speed in combat is a quirk/concept that is almost exclusive to Marvel and DC. Different media need different systems of evaluation.

Phew, that took a toll on me.

The rest of the essentials

With speed and stamina, the criteria of strength is set lower than Hulk's against Asura. So even if TDB proved Hulk was more reliably stronger than Asura(which he did to a good degree), he did in the end not only agree that Mantra Asura was much stronger than Vajra Asura but also accepted that Vajra Asura's feat was well above baseline planet busting. I was convinced more by Vulcan's reasoning behind the context of the feat and the whole boost meter thing (or whatever tf it was) and it made more sense than TDB's counters. While TDB did convince me more on the whole carrier shit, I feel it was primarily due to Vulcan not getting the last say, but even then I don't think it takes away too much from the overwhelming speed and stamina difference.

I was also more convinced by the end that Mantra Asura pummeling away for at sub rel speeds with above baseline planet busting strength for 5 centuries with Hulk almost never getting a hit in, if at all due to constantly being bombarded by someone massively faster than himself, would grant Mantra Asura the eventual victory.

Generally enjoyable match, you both did good in some and not good at all in other ways, just my 2 cents. But I think you both maintained sportsmanship by the end, and that's most important. gg guys

This perfectly summarizes my thoughts on the matter.

Pretty much this, Vulcan gets My vote. Thoigh I feel chea quoting another explanation, it's 3am here so I can not write out a full essay due to the closing date on this match. However I'll give my personalised feedback in a few days.

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HigherPower

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#152  Edited By HigherPower

Well now the extension period has also ended. No votes past this point will be counted, but feedback is still welcome. I'm going to count the score now.

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Kirkseven

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This is what my cousin @pipxeroth would call: "a battle of our favorite star level characters''

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pipxeroth

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This is what my cousin @pipxeroth would call: "a battle of our favorite star level characters''

I already made that joke on the first page you muppet

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Kirkseven

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Stormdriven

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@kirkseven: You said he was your cousin, now you’re calling him dad ?

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HigherPower

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#157  Edited By HigherPower

Final Tally

UserVoted forPost #HP's tallyTDB's tally
Unlimited1Thedailybagel831412
MaalikThedailybagel88
Sy8000Thedailybagel90
20damonThedailybagel91
reaverlationHigherPower92
PipxerothThedailybagel93
HitTheAssassinThedailybagel94
Streak619HigherPower97
ThEBeStOfTheBeSTThedailybagel100
blackpantherisbHigherPower101
TheWatcherKingThedailybagel102
Rac95HigherPower103
DeathHero61HigherPower104
Red_Ruby_PetalHigherPower106
cKarmaHigherPower107
Just_BanterHigherPower109
ZetsumotoHigherPower110
KingGuinnessHigherPower116
BullPRThedailybagel117
CergicHigherPower122
Wollfmyth209HigherPower126
Rosa_MelanoThedailybagel134
FaradaySlothHigherPower139
FloopayThedailybagel141
Battle123axeThedailybagel142
vswHigherPower151

After a polarizing, edge-of-the-seat voting period, the victor is HigherPower by an extremely narrow margin of two votes.

I personally want to thank @thedailybagel for helping me kick off the All-Star debate with a huge turnout (4 pages/7,900+ views/26 votes) and nail-biting final hours. And a special thank you for all those who took time out of their day to vote on the match.

Here are the remaining matches.

There will be 5 separate 1v1 matches. Whatever team wins 3/5 of these matches will be crowned the victors of the ASD.