All-Star CaV | Thedailybagel (Hulk) vs HigherPower (Asura) - Closed. Victor: HigherPower

  • 157 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
Avatar image for blackpantherisb
blackpantherisb

7716

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 1

@streak619 said:

Aight, let's get this over with. My vote goes to Vulcan. He convinced of three things;

  1. Asura fodderises Hulk in speed and Hulk is never so much as touching him.
  2. Asura is strong enough, such that with the spamming of strikes as well as the nonsensical stamina, he can and will overwhelm Hulk's durability and regen
  3. Asura is durable to tank Hulk's thunderclaps since I was convinced of the first point

The speed debate

Oh man... I have so much to say it's almost enough to discourage me from voting...

Almost

Vulcan absolutely dominated this debate. Across the debate, he provided multiple sub relativistic laser feats demonstrating consistency and brought up Destructor Asura(?) and his MFTL feat for consistency. The only fault I could find here was the fact that he went from LS to relativistic to sub rel, Vulcan shifting your argument from LS - sub rel is indicative of how (not) prepared you were. The fact that you gradually jumped down entire tiers in speed really dents your credibility and persuasiveness. From what I can tell it probably contributed a good amount to the disparity in the vote score. I think it wouldn't have been so big had you started with sub rel from the very start.

Anyways, onto the actual point. Vulcan's arguments convinced simply because of

  1. How solid the feats themselves were
  2. How absolutely no valid counter was provided.

Now I'm sure everyone, including TDB, would agree that the feats itself were incredibly clear cut and explicit and objective, in the context that there were no assumptions, no appeals to probability, no subjective scaling. It's everything you want speed feats to be. Even TDB himself attacked a very fundamental aspect of the feat. The feat was otherwise clear cut.

Now I'm sure the second point caught your eye, as it better have had TDB. Your counters can be summed up in 2 general points

  1. The unreliability of laser speed feats.
  2. Anti-feats conceived from estimated timeframes of actions/fights based on events occurring at or around the fighters in the background

The first point absolutely ruined the fun of the debate for me greatly. Because of how falaciously misinformed you were regarding this topic. You said, in your opener;

No Caption Provided

What you're basically saying is, syllogistically;

  • Observation #1: Hulk has dodged lasers
  • Observation #2: Hulk is not light speed.
  • Observation #3: Asura has dodged lasers
  • Inference: Asura is not light speed

"Come on man, Hulk has dodged lasers but is he LS? No, so Asura's laser feats don't make him LS either!"

This is the literal definition of an association fallacy. It is akin to saying:

  1. Observation #1: Hitler was a man
  2. Observation #2: Hitler was evil
  3. Observation #3: Mr. X is a man
  4. Inference: Mr. X is evil.

Switch out men for dodging lasers, evil for light speed, Hitler for Hulk and Mr. X for Asura and we have your argument. Equally ridiculous, objectively.

The reason Hulk dodging lasers and still not being LS isn't primarily because lasers are unreliable, it's because Hulk is not consistently that fast, by any stretch of the imagination as you literally conceded. That doesn't mean Asura's laser feats are unreliable suddenly either. And Vulcan rightfully brought this up as well;

No Caption Provided

End of that conversation. Further part of the whole "Lasers are shite" argument, you say;

My problem with you using lasers as your argument is that the entertainment medium has everyone dodge lasers all the time

From this statement, I can tell that you don't read/debate;

  • manga
  • manhwa/manua
  • Any Asian fictional action based content, really.

Because it is objectively wrong to say what you did about most of the characters in these media. Lasers aren't big in eastern content unless it is mecha or something. That is a fact, take it from someone who (very very much like your opponent) has the credibility to flat out deny this nonsense because of actual experience with these media. Vulcan, who is arguably the most credible and meritorious user in the entire site, in this regard is infinitely more credible than you, who has no right to make such statements when your prime experience lies within one sphere of media.

News flash; not everything works like Marvel/DC. Different media are fundamentally different because diversity in culture is a thing. Laser feats are not as common, nor irrelevant, nor with such a terrible track record of consistency compared to Marvel and DC, in eastern media.

And oh man, don't even get me started on the nonsensical amount of appeals to incredulity fallacies riddled all over your post TDB;

No Caption Provided

There's absolutely no excuse for such blatant attempts to appeal to incredulity and absurdity, it's unbecoming of someone who was voted into the HoF and the top ten of the site.

Furthermore, your so-called anti-feats also tie into this as well. Things like talking, gravity, background events that happen in real time (like breeze blowing and trees swaying or shit like that) are also tropes that easter on a majority use to increase the appeal of scenes, it's a quirk that almost all of them (I've yet to come across a single Asian scriptwriter/mangaka who doesn't use them) use. It's something that absolutely infests all Asian action media, partly because Asian writers are more lax about how physically and scientifically consistent a scene is or they simply don't or both. Similar to how the concept of characters not using their speed in combat is a quirk/concept that is almost exclusive to Marvel and DC. Different media need different systems of evaluation.

Phew, that took a toll on me.

The rest of the essentials

With speed and stamina, the criteria of strength is set lower than Hulk's against Asura. So even if TDB proved Hulk was more reliably stronger than Asura(which he did to a good degree), he did in the end not only agree that Mantra Asura was much stronger than Vajra Asura but also accepted that Vajra Asura's feat was well above baseline planet busting. I was convinced more by Vulcan's reasoning behind the context of the feat and the whole boost meter thing (or whatever tf it was) and it made more sense than TDB's counters. While TDB did convince me more on the whole carrier shit, I feel it was primarily due to Vulcan not getting the last say, but even then I don't think it takes away too much from the overwhelming speed and stamina difference.

I was also more convinced by the end that Mantra Asura pummeling away for at sub rel speeds with above baseline planet busting strength for 5 centuries with Hulk almost never getting a hit in, if at all due to constantly being bombarded by someone massively faster than himself, would grant Mantra Asura the eventual victory.

Generally enjoyable match, you both did good in some and not good at all in other ways, just my 2 cents. But I think you both maintained sportsmanship by the end, and that's most important. gg guys

This perfectly summarizes my thoughts on the matter.

Avatar image for thewatcherking
TheWatcherKing

19499

Forum Posts

31

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I think this was quite a solid win for @thedailybagel.

Fortunately I can keep my vote much shorter than I originally planned, because I think TDB actually covered many of the reasons why I'm voting for him in his final post's conclusion very nicely, as did Maalik in his own vote. The main reason I feel like @higherpower lost this debate is because he was on the backfoot the entire time - he virtually never bothered actually attempting to think of counters to many of TDB's arguments and instead spent the entire debate solely trying to defend his speed argument. You cannot expect to win a debate if you are on the defence 99% of the time and don't attack any of your opponent's arguments, while they have free reign to pick apart each and every one of your points at their leisure. With that said, the few attempts made to counter things that TDB said seemed to be really weak attempts to just appear as if he was actually countering anything relevant, when he instead just misunderstood TDB's points and made really dumb claims, such as his response to TDBs Surfer scan where he said that Surfer doesn't use his combat speed as if that had any relevance to the scan in question (it didn't), or his response to the Vision scan where he started talking about solar flares (which were never brought up) and also said that solar energy isn't lightspeed (it is).

Now speed was obviously the main point of contention here, and for the most part I think TDB's counters to it were sound. While I don't consider the argument that "other characters dodge lasers all the time therefore avoiding a laser is not a good feat" a good one, he presented plenty of other counters to Vulcan's arguments for Asura'a speed, most importantly showing that Asura consistently fights below that speed, which amusingly Vulcan first tried arguing against before eventually shifting the goalposts entirely in his last post to "Asura just didn't need to use all his speed here". Extra points for irony given the first thing he responded to TDB's example of Hulk dodging a beam from Vision is that "even if it was lightspeed it wouldn't matter because Hulk doesn't dodge LS attacks consistently". Vulcan also completely ignored major points like thunderclaps which absolutely needed to be responded to to have any hopes of winning an argument when your entire strategy hinges on having speed superior enough to overcome the strength and durability disadvantages. If Vulcan had presented proper counterarguments to these things and was able to defend Asura's speed better, maybe he could have pulled a win here despite his lack of offence, but really TDB won this part of the debate pretty significantly in my opinion.

Only other thing I really have to say is that I felt like Vulcan's posts became increasingly worse over the duration of the debate while TDB's just kept getting better and better. Whether he just got tired of the debate or started to panic after digging himself further and further into holes I can't say, but the difference in their final posts is pretty significant. The other voters (Maalik especially) have covered everything else important I can think of. So nice debate overall, but Vulcan chose Asura's speed to be his hill to die on, and Bagel killed him.

This pretty much touches all of my thoughts on the debate.

Avatar image for rac95
Rac95

6732

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@thedailybagel: @higherpower: First of all my compliments on your debate, it was a very good and organised read. A lot of things have already been said in detail and I would just repeat them again, so I am cutting directly to what I mean.

IMO HigherPower won this debate. The speed debate was in his favor, the whole "laser and reaction to laser" was a huge back and forth in terms of speed, but I think a few factors decided the fact for me:

A.) HigherPower convinced me that the speed Asura posesses is enough by a huge margin. The reaction speed he could prove for the base form was already high, IMO high enough to show that Asura wouldn't actually need the (a bit hard to quantifiable) power boosts he got due to his upgrades.

B.) In combination to point A.) the speed of his attacks combined with the shown power is enough to overcome Hulks healing factor, especially with his stamina

Huge probs to TDB for showing how hard it would actually be and the showings he brought, especially since I don't know much about Immortal Hulk the new examples were very interesting.

All in all my vote goes to HigherPower.

Off topic though, is there any reason you never really mentioned Asuras energy output? After all he is able to use it as a rapid attack from a distance and his Berserker form was basically all energy with shockwaves that could destroy ships in the orbit

Avatar image for deathhero61
DeathHero61

19037

Forum Posts

50

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#104  Edited By DeathHero61

I'm short on time and although I want to make my own personal detailed vote on the matter, @streak619 summarized half of my thoughts. He basically summarized a lot of the issues I had with @thedailybagel, but he didn't discuss many issues I had with Vulcan. Similar to one of the CAVs that IMO put him in a positive light as a debater for me, Vulcan barely put in any effort after his opener.( He had all the cards necessary, and he could have easily squashed the speed debate earlier especially when you take into consideration that TDB LITERALLY CONCEDED THAT ASURA IS FASTER. "A great deal faster" means you are getting blitzed or at least outmaneuvered. Its that simple. So when he finally ended the speed debate sufficiently in his last two posts, I thought he would've put more effort into his strength and durability based counters, but he didn't really like others said, although I personally was convinced I felt like he should have put any arguments into the ground early on. It also felt like he changed goal posts, because at one point it felt like he was claiming Hulk was faster with Asura allegedly being less impressive than bullet timers, then went to "Asura doesn't consistently blitz"

There was also the many things other people mentioned with him switching goal posts between LS and Relativistic. I felt in order to counter the massive lowballing TDB utilized in his debate, he could have shown more feats or did more digging in the Asura's wrath universe or equalize certain feats that Asura had, such as bullrushing Ryu to the moon, and the laser feat since they can be argued on the same level, or to be in the same ballpark therefore proving some kind of consistency, or when Augus used his sword to send him flying from the moon to the earth which can fit all the planets in our solar system.

No Caption Provided

This is impressive because Asura actually reacted to its extension which I am surprised nobody noticed after all this time.(This is further proven as a an impressive speed feat because his sword after impacting the planet immediately reaches the other side of the planet....)

To prove the bullrush and the reaction feat(which you can find here around the 12 minute mark.) let's look back on what Vulcan presented.

https://streamable.com/ffz8u This was Asura apparently outpacing and reacting to the lasers(lets assume for the most part the feat is massively hypersonic considering one of the voters @maalik's analysis of the feat) Later on Vulcan posted a feat of Asura outright deflecting a large barrage of these lasers.

Now if Vulcan posted the two feats above as a reference or at least for some form of backing that Asura can move at high speeds and react consistently at high speeds, then I feel he could have proved that the laser feat was legit in some shape or form.

The lowballed scenes Bagel posted like Asura outmaneuvering the guards, at a slow speed, made no sense when Asura does stuff like perceiving and immediately catching up to escape pods in episode 9.

Skip to 19:35

Also to further legitimize the lasers of Viltra's asides from showing the huge leap ahead and showing Destructor Form Asura's feats, he could have shown Asura's energy projection easily going from earth to orbit to destroy a bunch of spaceships in episode 12 to back the credibility and consistency of Viltra's lasers traveling interplanetary distances.

I felt like he was so focused on the first feat he presented its as if he forgot about literally every other possible showing he could have presented. And the thing is, he should know about these feats. If TheDailyBagel was gonna go so far as to claim Asura is not as impressive as a bullet timer, and that despite the amount of effort Vulcan went through just to make sure TDB and the voters understood where he's coming from, I felt Vulcan could have ended the debate by proving consistency by showing what I presented above and much more to prove Asura can travel and fight at speeds faster than simply Hypersonic. To give an idea, the difference between Mach 5 and Mach 20 is huge. If Asura was simply high hypersonic(Mach 10, Mach 20ish) and Hulk was simply hypersonic(Mach 5 Mach 8ish) then blitzing is definitely an argument. The moment TDB admitted that Asura was a "great deal faster" he should have focused on debunking strength, which I wasn't really convinced in ultimately.

The amount of effort in Vulcan's posts as others have said deterioted with each post, and I can sort of guess the reason why, TDB was waaaaay too dismissive over very simple presentation, and went as far to lowball in a way that was beneath someone of his skill and caliber and having to go back and forth about the speed argument must have been extremely tiring and repetitive. There was also double standards relating to environmental damage, and scaling, so I can imagine this debate must have been mentally draining.

I almost gave the vote to TDB due to the quality of some of his arguments, but I don't believe the amount of lowballing and the association fallacies, classify as legit debating and that ultimately lost my support. @higherpower ultimately takes my vote in a long tiresome fight.

Good debate guys.

Avatar image for deathhero61
DeathHero61

19037

Forum Posts

50

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#105  Edited By DeathHero61

Also finally, relating to the "asura doesn't use his speed consistently" argument wouldn't he have eventually when needed? Its not like he would avoid using his speed the entire fight.

Avatar image for red_ruby_petal
red_ruby_petal

8480

Forum Posts

131

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#106  Edited By red_ruby_petal

Honestly I was a little annoyed with @thedailybagel rebuttals of not constantly going at this speed mostly because its being overparticular on details rather than acknowledging these characters are capable of performing said feats, and thats gonna end up taking away a lot of feats some characters possess. As well degree of ignorance regarding what @higherpower's statements about the speed Asura possesses. I could hardly fine myself convinced of his other arguments like "otherwise if" or "he should have". There are too many cases for those, even for Hulk or any character in general. It doesn't and shouldn't make characters less powerful than what is intended and shown through their performances. I didn't find any of that particularly convincing. Not only that, but I really think I was convinced of Asura matching in strength and dwarfing in speed, which seals the deal of who I think wins this matchup.

If I can vote, I vote for @higherpower

Avatar image for ckarma
cKarma

1365

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I’m short on time so I’ll make it very quick.

It was a very close call and a very good read but my vote goes to higherpower for one main reason:

TDB concedes way too many things that he should not have conceded at all.

Debating was pretty even on both sides, but TDB had no reason to say Asura was as a great deal faster, then on top of that he didn’t attack the 500’year feat as non canon at all, which is for sure one of the most underrated feats I’ve seen in the voting posts.

So I can’t really see Hulk winning against an opponent with admittedly higher speed, admittedly relative strength and the 500 year feat just can’t really be contended with.

One big advantage TDB convinced me for Hulk is that Hulk could do what Asura had to use all his energy to do CASUALLY, which almost made me vote for him but like I said there was just far too many concessions for that to be the reason Hulk takes a majority.

IMO Hulk should’ve been debated as close to Asura in the speed department, but once you concede a point all the debating and feats are unnecessary unless that point is retracted. And IMO even just WBH would beat Mantra Asura due to me seeing them having comparable speed (I don’t think Asura is relativistic but like I said it was conceded he was a great deal faster in this debate).

Good debate and very fun to read though for sure.

Avatar image for faradaysloth
FaradaySloth

13653

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

I should have my vote up tomorrow or friday. School is a painnnnnnn

Avatar image for just_banter
Just_Banter

12501

Forum Posts

409

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I wrote over 1000 words on this debate for my vote, but I figured that posting that amount isn't needed, and since people have complained about my longboi posts unfairly winning over other voters and being biased in the past I'll refrain from posting it.

@higherpower gets my vote, although Bagel really should have won this. Bagel focusing on a multitude of bad arguments (with some of them legitimately making me laugh out loud when I read them) instead of relentlessly pressing in on Hulk's own advantages cost him dearly. It's all well and good to be on the 'front foot' for the entire debate, but when that foot is made up of nothing more than your imagination it doesn't really count for much.

Vulcan really could have tried to press harder against Hulk's stats as well, and quite frankly the reason he gave for not doing it (unfamiliarity with Hulk and his feats) leaves an awful lot to be desired considering Bagel sourced almost all of his feats. But both debaters chose to make Asura's stats their Camlann, and in this case, Bagel played the role of Mordred. Vulcan very nearly lost and really should have, but Bagel's choice to argue 'against Asura' instead of 'for Hulk' really wasn't as useful as I would have wished it to be.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

34540

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

#110  Edited By Zetsu-San

I'm gonna give my vote to @higherpower. Not necessarily because I liked the way he debated, but more because I found many of TDB's arguments to be... rather irritating. Particularly the ones regarding speed.

TDB's big argument was that "tons of characters dodge lasers, therefore all laser dodging are invalid". I understand the concept and have made similar arguments in the past. The problem however, is that when the lasers have actual, quantifiable, on-screen speed feats; it is not the same thing. In this case, we know exactly how fast the writer considers the lasers, and exactly how fast Asura is intended to be, since he was able to react to them.

When street levelers dodge lasers in fiction, it's usually vague energy attacks with no actual quantifiable speed feats to speak of. Furthermore, we know dodging lasers are outliers in these cases, because the characters in question have long been established as being merely street level in speed.

In addition to the above, TDB tried to argue Asura is "consistently street level in speeds", by taking a bunch of fights shown from the perspective of the fighters, and saying "well, it doesn't look like light speed; therefore it's not light speed!" ---- I don't need to have played Asura's wrath to know that that's an absurd argument. You cannot portray a supersonic, much less FTL fight scene in real time. It's not possible!

Other attempts at low-balling, were scenes where the characters are obviously just jobbing for dramatic effect. Fast characters forgetting to use their speeds, is an issue that plagues fiction throughout every medium. Especially comics.

For the record, I don't think TDB actually believes any of his arguments here. I think he was just trying to control the debate by sending GV on wild goose chase and forcing him to spend all his effort countering a series of ridiculous nitpicks. I don't know about others, but I find that style of debating to be extremely obnoxious. Unfortunately, GV seems to have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

---

As for criticisms regarding Higherpower. Aside from getting too caught up TDB's debating tactics, he also had a major problem with overbloating his posts. He spent way too much time posting feats from weaker versions of Asura only to completely invalidate those feats by posting superior ones from more current versions of the character.

Avatar image for deathhero61
DeathHero61

19037

Forum Posts

50

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I wrote over 1000 words on this debate for my vote, but I figured that posting that amount isn't needed, and since people have complained about my longboi posts unfairly winning over other voters and being biased in the past I'll refrain from posting it.

@higherpower gets my vote, although Bagel really should have won this. Bagel focusing on a multitude of bad arguments (with some of them legitimately making me laugh out loud when I read them) instead of relentlessly pressing in on Hulk's own advantages cost him dearly. It's all well and good to be on the 'front foot' for the entire debate, but when that foot is made up of nothing more than your imagination it doesn't really count for much.

Vulcan really could have tried to press harder against Hulk's stats as well, and quite frankly the reason he gave for not doing it (unfamiliarity with Hulk and his feats) leaves an awful lot to be desired considering Bagel sourced almost all of his feats. But both debaters chose to make Asura's stats their Camlann, and in this case, Bagel played the role of Mordred. Vulcan very nearly lost and really should have, but Bagel's choice to argue 'against Asura' instead of 'for Hulk' really wasn't as useful as I would have wished it to be.

Damn that's a really good point.

Avatar image for sawed_off_it
Sawed_Off_It

13639

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Damn this took a turn. Can try to post a vote soon if needed.

Avatar image for deathhero61
DeathHero61

19037

Forum Posts

50

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

As for criticisms regarding Higherpower. Aside from getting too caught up TDB's debating tactics, he also had a major problem with overbloating his posts. He spent way too much time posting feats from weaker versions of Asura only to completely invalidate those feats by posting superior ones from more current versions of the character.

I feel like its the opposite, he should have posted more feats to back his arguments to begin with since TDB was so unnecessarily skeptical and dismissive.

Avatar image for zetsu-san
Zetsu-San

34540

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 6

@mylittlefascist said:

As for criticisms regarding Higherpower. Aside from getting too caught up TDB's debating tactics, he also had a major problem with overbloating his posts. He spent way too much time posting feats from weaker versions of Asura only to completely invalidate those feats by posting superior ones from more current versions of the character.

I feel like its the opposite, he should have posted more feats to back his arguments to begin with since TDB was so unnecessarily skeptical and dismissive.

The problem isn't that he wasn't posting enough feats, it's that he wasn't strategic enough with his feat choices.

All he needed was to post a few undeniably hypersonic minimum feats then moved on.

Instead, he wasted a lot of space, with feats that were simply beaten out by superior showings. There's no point in posting feats from 10 powerups ago, if you're just going to post a better/more-current feat that is perfectly capable of standing on it's own anyways.

Avatar image for streak619
Streak619

8544

Forum Posts

36

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

There was a lot Vulcan could have done more in terms of consistency and counters, especially the latter, Vulcan didn't put enough effort even if his arguments were factually correct, he didn't support them too well and it's easy to understand why many of the comic purists voted for against him.

I might have as, if TDB's arguments were any less uninformed tbh.

Avatar image for kingguinness
KingGuinness

2101

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I give my vote to @higherpower. His arguments were more technically sound and his counters didn't revolve around furiously lowballing Hulk, which i felt TDB was doing to Asura.

TDB's rebuttals to Vulcan's arguments regarding Asura's speed were basically this; Asura doesn't look fast, therefore he isn't.

Given that I've played Asura's Wrath multiple times and actually understand the context of the feats and how Asian media works in general, this left me absolutely baffled. That line of logic and reasoning is how one would go about trying to debunk a comic or live action character's feat, not a game character's feat from an entirely different medium as well as cultural background. Using cinematic scenes and gameplay mechanics to lowball Asura's capabilities honestly makes zero sense, because it's an argument forgetting the most crucial thing about Asura's Wrath; It's a game. The cinematic scenes and gameplay are devices used for gravitas and to push the plot of the game forward, not literal things that can be used to debunk such clear cut feats, which Vulcan showed.

To put it simply, the arguments literally made zero sense from my perspective, which is why Vulcan gets my vote. GG tho gentlemen @thedailybagel@higherpower

Avatar image for bullpr
BullPR

6328

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

What a nice debate, thanks+++ to the both of you.

This is not the first time I see speed being used as main argument against Hulk. Not sure @higherpower was convincing enough.

I vote for @thedailybagel

Avatar image for shirso
shirso

6947

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#118 shirso  Online

Reading this again. Will try to drop a vote soon.

Avatar image for deathhero61
DeathHero61

19037

Forum Posts

50

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@bullpr said:

What a nice debate, thanks+++ to the both of you.

This is not the first time I see speed being used as main argument against Hulk. Not sure @higherpower was convincing enough.

I vote for @thedailybagel

Can you actually make a dedicated analysis please?

Avatar image for deathhero61
DeathHero61

19037

Forum Posts

50

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for bullpr
BullPR

6328

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#121  Edited By BullPR

@deathhero61 said:
@bullpr said:

What a nice debate, thanks+++ to the both of you.

This is not the first time I see speed being used as main argument against Hulk. Not sure @higherpower was convincing enough.

I vote for @thedailybagel

Can you actually make a dedicated analysis please?

Dedicated is a big word, but to support a little bit my conclusion, in his initial post @higherpower stated that "Asura has the travel and reaction speed to avoid the AoE of Gamma Bursts".

For me this was a "fatal flaw".

Overall he/she didn't clearly demonstrate that.

More importantly, he/she might have had a better case by trying to show that Asura was able to resist to these bursts: this is a much better way to counter this (quite) new ability of Hulk. Indeed, finding feats showing resistance to high level energy projection attacks should be easy whatever the medium used (Manga, Anime, Comics, Movies, Series, Video games etc...).

By comparison, the burden of proof to demonstrate the ability to avoid these gamma bursts is much higher.

Avatar image for cergic
Cergic

1456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#122 Cergic  Online

I am also voting for Higherpower, and this may sound odd but i don't want to.

I wanted TDB to win because i firmly believe in his character in this CaV and i firmly believe that this composite Hulk could take the cake. But the issue is, i thought that the moment i read the characters in the CaV detail post, not after reading through the CaV, which means i'm a) biased and b) pre-voting for a character instead of a debater.

I want to mention that i was swayed after every post up until the second last post, meaning both debaters did very well.

With that said, i also want to point out that i pretty much won't bring anything new to the table. Other voters already said it all.

Some of the reasons why Higherpower gets my vote are:

TDB proved to me what he ACTUALLY thought of the speedfeats from higherpower when he said that Higherpower went "mUh LazERZz". I genuinely hate this lazy conclusion because it's not fair or even representative, and the laser feat honestly a very good feat to rely on.

It's not making sense to compare apples with oranges or with what Asura has done regarding a very solidly presented laser feat with a vague and poor example of what the Hulk has done in his medium. Others already covered this eloquently. But i have got to ask you TDB - why invalidate the one really clear cut speed feat for Azura, claim that you want ANY other speed feat and then STILL concede the speed? I still don't understand why you admit to Hulk being slower if you think that Higherpower only showed 1 speed feat which sucked. That means that you still concede to Azuras speed... Just because?

TDB went on about a lack of collateral damage to argue that an attack is weaker than what is claimee (which i personally like) and then provide multiple scans with a distinct lack of damage on the surrounding area. *Insert verbal tic like uuuuugh here*. Such as Zoomstrange overtaxing WWH and babyshakes him, kicks him into a building and then how WWH punches Strange into a car... All this without even city block area damage.. So WWH base durability < buildings/civilians being very close? Of course not, but applying the same logic would imply it. Or the Skaar punch which only caused hill damage, and so on.

TDB didn't convincingly counter the 500 year endurance argument with good Hulk endurance showings, which was fairly critical to do. Hulk has endurance feats, we all know it, but i fail to see them presented properly and convincingly enough to match.

Azuras scaling was not objectively broken, short and simple. It worked for me.

To conclude my ramblings, Higherpower worked with what he had and it proved to be enough, mostly because we only see TDB bring forth FEW heavy hitting feats despite there being more to bring to the table, and some of the feats TDB presents were presented too briefly. Had TDB just worked with the regeneration combined with durability a little bit more i'd probably vote differently. I heavily dislike that Higherpower ignored to properly counter Hulks AoE options which TDB presented very well, but that alone is not enough to make me vote differently.

Good job on this CaV, it was very good despite the insults and passive aggressiveness.

Avatar image for lvenger
Lvenger

36461

Forum Posts

899

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 50

User Lists: 18

I so wish I could vote on this debate because this was a clash of the ages. Both sides have debated passionately and challenged their opposing arguments with great fervour. Both Bagel and Vulcan have earned even greater respect than I already had for them.

Avatar image for thedailybagel
Thedailybagel

12994

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@ckarma: thank you for voting, but if your main gripe with my argument is that I conceded “Asura was massively faster” I didn’t actually do that, I actually said almost the opposite. Thank you for voting regardless.

Avatar image for major_hellstrom
Major_Hellstrom

18270

Forum Posts

7

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#125  Edited By Major_Hellstrom

There was also the many things other people mentioned with him switching goal posts between LS and Relativistic. I felt in order to counter the massive lowballing TDB utilized in his debate, he could have shown more feats or did more digging in the Asura's wrath universe or equalize certain feats that Asura had, such as bullrushing Ryu to the moon, and the laser feat since they can be argued on the same level, or to be in the same ballpark therefore proving some kind of consistency, or when Augus used his sword to send him flying from the moon to the earth which can fit all the planets in our solar system.

No Caption Provided

This is impressive because Asura actually reacted to its extension which I am surprised nobody noticed after all this time.(This is further proven as a an impressive speed feat because his sword after impacting the planet immediately reaches the other side of the planet....)

To prove the bullrush and the reaction feat(which you can find here around the 12 minute mark.) let's look back on what Vulcan presented.

https://streamable.com/ffz8u This was Asura apparently outpacing and reacting to the lasers(lets assume for the most part the feat is massively hypersonic considering one of the voters @maalik's analysis of the feat) Later on Vulcan posted a feat of Asura outright deflecting a large barrage of these lasers.

Now if Vulcan posted the two feats above as a reference or at least for some form of backing that Asura can move at high speeds and react consistently at high speeds, then I feel he could have proved that the laser feat was legit in some shape or form.

The lowballed scenes Bagel posted like Asura outmaneuvering the guards, at a slow speed, made no sense when Asura does stuff like perceiving and immediately catching up to escape pods in episode 9.

Skip to 19:35

Also to further legitimize the lasers of Viltra's asides from showing the huge leap ahead and showing Destructor Form Asura's feats, he could have shown Asura's energy projection easily going from earth to orbit to destroy a bunch of spaceships in episode 12 to back the credibility and consistency of Viltra's lasers traveling interplanetary distances.

I felt like he was so focused on the first feat he presented its as if he forgot about literally every other possible showing he could have presented. And the thing is, he should know about these feats. If TheDailyBagel was gonna go so far as to claim Asura is not as impressive as a bullet timer, and that despite the amount of effort Vulcan went through just to make sure TDB and the voters understood where he's coming from, I felt Vulcan could have ended the debate by proving consistency by showing what I presented above and much more to prove Asura can travel and fight at speeds faster than simply Hypersonic. To give an idea, the difference between Mach 5 and Mach 20 is huge. If Asura was simply high hypersonic(Mach 10, Mach 20ish) and Hulk was simply hypersonic(Mach 5 Mach 8ish) then blitzing is definitely an argument. The moment TDB admitted that Asura was a "great deal faster" he should have focused on debunking strength, which I wasn't really convinced in ultimately.

The amount of effort in Vulcan's posts as others have said deteriorated with each post, and I can sort of guess the reason why, TDB was waaaaay too dismissive over very simple presentation, and went as far to lowball in a way that was beneath someone of his skill and caliber and having to go back and forth about the speed argument must have been extremely tiring and repetitive. There was also double standards relating to environmental damage, and scaling, so I can imagine this debate must have been mentally draining.

Why are you making an argument for one side in your vote? Kinda makes it seem a tad bit biased. Don't really care tho.

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
WollfMyth209

17555

Forum Posts

3513

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

So, I firmly believe that Hulk does beat Asura, but when voting for CaVs I tend to vote for the more convincing argument.

Because of that, I'll hand @higherpower my vote. Both did a splendid job, both were very thorough and articulate, but I just found a bit more flavour in HPs arguments.

Avatar image for defiant_will
defiant_will

616

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I'll vote soon

Avatar image for higherpower
HigherPower

12724

Forum Posts

5657

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

@wollfmyth209: Thank you for the vote. You don't mind elaborating do you?

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
WollfMyth209

17555

Forum Posts

3513

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@higherpower: Basically, it comes down to how the arguments were presented.

TDB ultimately resorted to lowballing or dismissing a lot of your arguments for Asura without a basis for it. This is best highlighted in the speed argument, where you had a tough job quantifying Asura and converting an overblown medium like a video game to a debate forum, and you did so extremely well. That's pretty much the long-and-short of it.

Avatar image for deathhero61
DeathHero61

19037

Forum Posts

50

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#130  Edited By DeathHero61

@major_hellstrom: I'm literally critiquing what Vulcan could have mentioned but failed to do. Just because i post scans and make inferences to levels of speeds and what not doesn't make me biased. I literally explained why i didn't vote for TDB and i also said that my thoughts resonate with Streak's. I always vote like this while analyzing an argument. I literally said at the beginning of my vote that Streak covered most of what i thought on the debate on TDB's side.

Avatar image for major_hellstrom
Major_Hellstrom

18270

Forum Posts

7

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@deathhero61:First, I said it makes you look biased and not that you are biased, your whole reply was assuming the later. I'm just saying that it seems incredibly odd to be giving only one of the characters an argument that could be used against the other.

Avatar image for deathhero61
DeathHero61

19037

Forum Posts

50

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@major_hellstrom: Fair enough, I won't push the topic any further. I can see why it could look that way.

Avatar image for thedailybagel
Thedailybagel

12994

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Bump for votes

Avatar image for rosa_melano
Rosa_Melano

230

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Honestly, Asura doesn't seem to fight so fast so the speed gap is not as big to be devisive factor.Also, Hulk superior strength and healing factor gives him the Edge.

Moreover, Thedailybagel has been the best debater to me.However, HigherPower did a great job if you have in mind the lack of feats from Asura compared to Hulk.

Avatar image for thedailybagel
Thedailybagel

12994

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for brucerogers
BruceRogers

18190

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Avatar image for higherpower
HigherPower

12724

Forum Posts

5657

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
ArkhamAsylum3

3920

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Probably won't vote due to me not having the time or enrgy to re-read the CaV. Regardless I think you both debated incredibly well.

Avatar image for faradaysloth
FaradaySloth

13653

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@higherpower@thedailybagel

Alright, first off, great debate! Sadly, I'm feeling a little sick as of right now and seeing like, 5-6 essays of analysis of other posters that share several of the same thoughts as me, I'll keep this short, however, I'll still have some stuff to say.

IMO @higherpower gets my vote, though it was pretty close. I thought HP arguments on speed and power sealed the deal for me, the Impurity Levels claim made be believe that Mantra Asura was indeed many many times more powerful than 6V Asura who was a planet busting (whether it was full power, he collapsed, etc.) so Asura spamming dozens of punches imo would be devastating to Hulk whose durability didn't really shock me that much. I believe HP did his best for counters, specifically for the speed and strength aspects. Though IMO, he should've done better against the Healing Factor, if these two did fight I thought the Healing Factor of Hulk would hard counter Asura, but the 500 Year endurance feat for Asura saved me from likely voting for TDB. I felt TDB was lowballing quite a bit of Asura, personally nitpicking at parts like the sword as a counter for Asura's speed, I just can't get behind lowballing, especially that severe. I do believe TDB did better in terms of Opening Posts when it came down to strength, but the scaling of HP got me behind him of just punching Hulk without Hulk reacting to him. I feel like you guys focused too much on speed too, mostly, it felt like TDB was arguing more against Asura's Speed and Scaling instead of why Hulk can do better, and overall, that may have been what led me to HP getting my vote. TDB just didn't convince me on why I shouldn't trust what HP was saying, simple as that. Also it felt like you guys were going to go through the screens and fight each other yourselves, but I'm assuming that is how you guys argue.

Overall, pretty awesome debate!

Avatar image for thedailybagel
Thedailybagel

12994

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for floopay
Floopay

11451

Forum Posts

726

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

This opened up fairly well; but I felt this became more about attacking and debunking than actually debating. I know in a debate you do have to do a little bit of both; but I feel like both sides did a lot of reaching.

I'm going to vote for @thedailybagel. Asura definitely could have won this, and maybe even should have. But I do think TDB had a point, and that was that a lot of his points were never acknowledged or given a proper counter.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Avatar image for battle123axe
Battle123axe

9758

Forum Posts

36

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I think this debate was an excellent showing of skill on both sides, and it is by no means a stomp for either. @higherpower came in strong and had me convinced earlier on that Asura would win, his opener in particular was fantastic and even when bagel went at it afterwards it never felt as if HP was wanking. That said, I'm voting for @thedailybagel, he consistently stated his own points and added upon them, while poking rather gaping holes in Hp's argument that were never adressed and were danced around by HP. His arguments were also more convincing to Hulk winning, though I do admit Hulk's larger feat bank and how bagel laid them down added to that.

That said, this was a very good debate from both sides, real all-star debating here, I just think TDB did a bit better IMHO.

Avatar image for vsw
vsw

2976

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Ill try to squeeze something in before the end of the day.

Avatar image for defiant_will
defiant_will

616

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@vsw said:

Ill try to squeeze something in before the end of the day.

Avatar image for baldmanjunior
BaldManjunior

275

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@vsw: So your making Lemonade.

Avatar image for higherpower
HigherPower

12724

Forum Posts

5657

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

Voting Closed

I'll edit in a table announcing the final tally in a few moments. If it comes out to be a tie voting will reopen for 3 more days.

Avatar image for therealvalkyrie
TheRealValkyrie

103

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#147  Edited By TheRealValkyrie

NOOO DAMMIT I WAS A FEW HOURS LATE!

I’M PRAYING TO EVERY GOD THAT HAS EVER EXISTED FOR IT TO TIE SO I CAN PUT IN MY TWO CENTS!

(I apologize for the caps I’m just very distraught over this)

Avatar image for stormdriven
Stormdriven

18428

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@therealvalkyrie: Unless I miscounted, I believe it is tied, so you might get your wish. I was unable to tell if a couple posts were actually votes or not, so I could be wrong.

Avatar image for higherpower
HigherPower

12724

Forum Posts

5657

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 3

@stormdriven: @therealvalkyrie: Me and Bagel decided to leave votes open for an additional day, since several people who were going to vote missed the opportunity to.

Avatar image for therealvalkyrie
TheRealValkyrie

103

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@higherpower:

So I’ve got til the end of the day to submit a response? Ok.