All-Star CaV | Thedailybagel (Hulk) vs HigherPower (Asura) - Closed. Victor: HigherPower

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FaradaySloth

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This is awesome so far lol. I understand why you guys are all stars

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20damon

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This is awesome so far lol. I understand why you guys are all stars

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HigherPower

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#54  Edited By HigherPower

@thedailybagel Depending on the arguments you make in your response, I am willing to go another round after this. But for now, this post should encapsulate my stance on our match. I've had a pleasure debating with you TDB; you've certainly put up a commendable effort representing Hulk. So I want to change both my tone and approach to the CaV, and recompense the mistakes made on my end.

I will be formatting my post like so:

  1. "Quick Cleanup"
  2. "Reviewing Speed"
  3. "The Issue of Strength"
  4. "Everything Else"
  5. "Conclusion"

Now, let's get to it.

Round 3

The Hulk Breaker
The Hulk Breaker

1.0 - Quick Cleanup

I want to start the cleanup section by apologizing for any unnecessary aggression and hostility in my previous post. Additionally, there were a few blunders I made that I have to correct before I can proceed to explain why Asura beats The Hulk. I typed up my entire second post on my phone, which in itself is very limiting, but I was also busy that day and ended up rushing to get my post out.

So I forgot to include the section where I explain the differences in Asura's forms to the unfamiliar—specifically the gap between Mantra and the versions who completed the feats I posted, which was something I teased at and stressed repeatedly. Bagel saw an opportunity in my flaw and ran with it, and it was pretty damaging as it gave counters a lot of extra edge. So allow me to get that out of the way first.

1.1 - Asura's Forms

Similar to Hulk, Asura has a central ability that goes by different names but can be universally recognized as Rage/Anger Empowerment. He becomes stronger the angrier he gets, and at his highest levels of anger, he can unlock new heights of power. Asura's forms are either results of permanent amps (i.e Mantra and Destructor) or are achieved through intense rage.

I posted each of Asura's forms in my opener. For those who want to view it for reference, click here.

So let's dissect some forms. Base is self explanatory; that's pretty much Asura's resting state. In serious combat, he usually ascends to Vajra off the bat. Vajra Asura is his primary fighting form, and the form in which the speed feat I posted in my opener comes from. At the beginning of the series, Vajra Asura can be seen fighting the army of Gohma that Vlitra unleashed to combat the Shinkoku Fleet. At this point, Asura put it notable effort and actually needed Yasha's help just to escape being sandwiched by two of Vlitra's larger spawn...

But after getting a permanent mantra boost from his daughter Mithra, Asura ascended to 6 Armed Vajra form, wherein he was capable of single-handedly KO'ing Vlitra itself with 3 punches.

This is important for a few reasons:

  • The absolute largest class of Gohma are the Gohma Carriers, which kind of act as ships or transports for other Gohma into space. Their impurity level is 240,000 and Vajra Asura needed effort to destroy them (and occasionally help).
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However, upon entering 6 Armed Vajra form, he was capable of 3-shotting Vlitra, the source of Gohma, who's Impurity Level is too big to be measured.

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Impurity level directly correlates with the power and threat of a Gohma. So I don't even need to pull a random number out of my ass to quantify a numerical difference between Vajra Asura and 6 Arm Vajra. Considering Vlitra spawned dozens of Gohma Carriers in the battle with the Generals at the beginning of the series, it's impurity level is objectively at least dozens of times above a single Carrier. So Asura going from struggling with a single Carrier to 3-shotting Vlitra would mean a similar increase in power.

So what have we learned so far?

A Mantra boost from Asura's daughter could make him at least dozens of times stronger. This is important because Asura's laser feat was completed before the boost, and after the boost comes his planet level feat against Wyzen.

Why is this significant?

This is significant because Mantra Asura is simply another form that was unlocked by yet another amp from his daughter Mithra.

However, the boost from Mithra this time is much, MUCH bigger, because as seen in the video, Mithra unleashed all the Mantra stored in the Karma Fortress, which was energy from human souls that the Guardians had been collecting for 12,500 years. On top of that, Asura and Yasha were fighting the True Form of Vlitra, which was much stronger.

Without needing to descend into DBZ/NNT type power level scaling, or SethTheProgrammer-tier form stacking, I think I've demonstrated very clearly the difference in power between Mantra Asura and the forms that proceed it.

The jump is objectively in the dozens at minimum, which is the gap between Vajra Asura and 6 Arm Vajra. So Mantra Asura is at least dozens of times stronger and faster than a version who completed a planet level feat and danced around sub-relativistic energy beams.

2.0 - Reviewing Speed

Some of my rebuttals in this section are going to be a little long winded, because the problem at hand is simply Bagel's logic and his way of thinking. So I need to explain why he is wrong in a way that he can understand.

Lets take a step back. From an objective point of view, you have not shown a single feat or statement of Asura fighting at lightspeed or anything remotely close.

Starting from here. The thing is, I don't need to do this. A character only needs a feat of performing at a certain speed in a way that is applicable to combat for you to argue them operating at that speed in a combat situation. Many characters with nanosecond timing feats haven't actually completed entire fights in nanoseconds; nor would they need to in order to be argued at FTL in a combat scenario.

Simply performing actions and body movements within a nanosecond is enough to merit a character being able to move at FTL speeds, which can be applicable to combat if they were shown doing certain body movements or activating techniques. A good example of this (but not nanosecond timing) is when Superman inspected every last minute detail of his surroundings, rescued someone, checked out a woman with crystal for bones, and examined an alien spaceship all within a thousandth of a second.

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This would be combat applicable because he performed complex actions at a speed that can be quantified. Based on this, wouldn't you agree that Superman is capable of blitzing supersonic and even hypersonic characters? Asura's laser feat is applicable to combat because they were homing lasers that he deftly evaded and outpaced with ease. He was twirling, spinning, swerving, and shifting. But seeing how stubborn you've been with this argument I know this won't be enough, so I'll simply oblige to your request. Here is 6 Armed Vajra Asura punching away dozens of True-Form Vlitra's lasers alongside Yasha. So he can throw dozens of punches at relativistic speeds.

Objectively Asura does not >FIGHT< at the speed you claim he does at any point in the >entire game<. He does not punch at that speed, jump at that speed, fly at that speed, is not stated to move that fast ever other than your instance with lasers

Not.

Once.

Well I just debunked this blatantly false claim with on-screen evidence of Asura throwing punches that were fast enough to deflect dozens of True Form Vlitra's energy beams. The beams which have a proven speed.

Also for your info, in Destructor Form, Asura reacts to beams from Chakravartin that crossed tens of thousands of light years in seconds. So your bold claims are nothing more than demonstrable lies.

My problem with you using lasers as your argument is that the entertainment medium has everyone dodge lasers all the time, you can have all the perspective shots in the world but factually you have nothing else to support your case other than him dodging lasers.

Yes but how many people in every entertainment medium have dodged Vlitra's lasers? They are not just regular lasers, which is what you don't seem to understand. They are energy projections from a supernatural monster that crossed hundreds of thousands of kilometers in 3 seconds, making them quantifiably sub-relativistic.

Outmaneuvering them and later deflecting a spam of them (which are homing) is a legitimate feat and you can't deny that. Please stop bringing up other lasers in fiction as they are not Vlitra's lasers and have no relevance to Asura's speed.

Moreso to the point is the undeniable fact that Asura is blatantly shown as fighting at speeds that Hulk himself could accomplish 99% of the time and I could quite literally spam the shit out of this thread with countless gifs to prove that. The only time Asura ever spams punches occurs in a short burst and those entire barrages have been shown on screen to pack less power than his biggest hits, ergo, would be utterly wasted on Hulk.

Now that I have actually posted a feat of Asura fighting at relativistic speeds which is too high for Hulk, this argument is nugatory. As far as your last sentence goes, lack of environmental damage doesn't detract potency. Not every time a high tier character delivers a blow does a country have to explode for us to know they're putting force into their attack.

Case in point, when Skaar hit Hulk with 100 trillion tons of shifting lithosphere, the only destruction we saw was a large hill get fragmented at the side.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

You posted these scans yourself and called the feat continental because you KNOW how much force Skaar was delivering... even though, if we go based on the damage it caused, it was nowhere near that.

The same thing goes for Asura and almost every high tier ever. You conceded that the Wyzen feat was above standard planet busting even AFTER you gave your debunks. So we know when Mantra Asura goes all out he would be dishing out at least planet+ levels of force at his strongest, since he's dozens of times stronger than 6 Arm Vajra at the minimum.

Solar energy is lightspeed, you learn this stuff in a science class or even from a quick google search... C'mon dude. Other than that is the fact that I was obviously joking. All lasers should theoretically be lightspeedbut even street levelers have no issue dodging them. Saying that, the burden on proof at this point is entirely on you to showcase Asura's 'lightspeed' combat showings because I'll reasert this now:

Avoiding lasers is done by everyone, it's not good enough, specially when the entire game contradicts your notion of how fast Asura is. You can repeat yourself, or you can give evidence. Choice is yours.

Here ya go:

At this point I don't even care about the consistency argument, I just want you to show me one feat of Asura fighting at lightspeed. literally anything that shows him fighting that fast because you haven't shown a single feat like that yet. Even a punch, just a punch. Anything other than "mUh LazERZz".

Shown above.

You're trying to squeeze correlation from Asura outspeeding people who are slow as balls into the argument that he could blitz Hulk. I have problems with that for two reasons...

Not a single one of those showings is actually a blitz. Asura is just leaping and hitting Wyzen once in the first and manhandling him after hitting him in the second. Sergei just looks like he's too shocked to move. A blitz is repeatedly hitting someone at high speed which Asura doesn't do there.

I already posted gifs of Asura repeatedly hitting someone at high speed. Against Augus and Akuma.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This proves that Asura spamming punches at high speeds isn't out of character or anything (Wyzen, anyone?)

A blitz is automatic when the speed gap is as large as it is here.

Sergei is utterly featless. The guy has one combat showing against fodder gohma IIRC but that's it. As for Wyzen, in his base form the only showings he actually has are getting one punched by Asura at the start of the game and getting beaten up again by Asura in their second fight. That's it.

This changes what I said how? My statement was that Asura has never failed to blitz someone slower than him. Sergei is slower than Asura and Asura one-shot him before he could react. What is the issue? Same goes for base Wyzen.

I can unironically say that Hulk catching a bullet in his teeth in The Incredible Hulk #43 is a more impressive showing than anything there. He was so fast that he transformed and caught the bullet in his teeth as it hit Banner before it could so much as move a few millimeters from the collision point...

Your showings just aren't good enough to prove that Asura will blitz Hulk.

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Bullet timing is too fast for Asura to blitz? Really?

Really?

I never once insinuated that Wyzen and Asura were peers in terms of speed, I pointed out that he hit him which would not happen if Asura is as fast as you claim.Wyzen is massively slower than Hulk is so I genuinely have no idea how Asura being faster makes him blitzing Hulk a 'simple fact' seeing as you haven't actually shown Asura really flat out blitzing anyone, let alone at the speeds you claim. I mean just for the sake of it the same Wyzen hit Asura again in mid air and had enough time to jump and sit on him...

Wyzen is faster than Hulk as he was shown zipping through space, crossing thousands of kilometers and destroying Gohma alongside the other Guardians at decidedly MHS speeds.

Asura was clearly dazed when from the hit when Wyzen sat on him.

Because characters talk all the time whilst throwing punches, in fact Yasha did it repeatedly when talking to Wrath Asura...

Two characters conversing with each other mid battle doesn't debunk their speed and never has.

I could spam examples like this, but I'll try use another example since characters not fighting fast on screen isn't enough for you. When Asura fought Augus, Augus's sword had time to spin repeatedly, rise and begin to fall before either Asura (who was damaged) or Augus (as strong as six armed Asura) began to react to it...

But wait let me guess, the sword is lightspeed as well? I could go on but I think you get my point...

I get where you're coming from, but characters with super speed aren't always moving at that speed. You could say when Asura bisects Augus that he was using super speed since he was launching an attack, but while armless and laying on the ground he wouldn't be. So asking me whether the sword was moving light speed makes no sense.

Like previous examples, we actually have a relatively objective way to gauge the speed they're moving at because they're falling past the core of the moon which isn't particularly big at all. They clash 4 times in 5 seconds. And this is the version of Asura that you keep going on and on about.

This is starting to get annoying because your concept of anti-feats aren't actual anti-feats. Literally nothing you've posted is a contradiction to Asura's speed. Asura is fighting someone who is physically equal in stats to him there, and there are other instances in THAT VERY FIGHT where they traded uncountable blows in single seconds, based on animation and all. And you know this is a video game were many times the angles and shots are altered in a specific way for dramatic effect. I mean, sometimes Asura and Akuma's clashes were grapples and the locking of fists. They would also be sizing each other up or drawing out their clashes. You're looking at a typical brawl in a very narrow minded and one-dimensional way.

Here's another question. How much faster is Mantra Asura to his other forms?

Several dozens. He got the Mantra boost after punching away dozens of True-Form Vlitra's lasers. Base Vlitra's lasers were already sub-relativistic.

You don't have access to a single showing of Asura fighting anything close to lightspeed

You don't have access to Asura even throwing a punch that fast

No, I didn't need to repost the same video so many times. But Bagel kind of backed himself into a corner when he asked for it over... and over... and over...

It's not even something that can be denied. You can't win this side of the argument, simply because the focal point of your entire speed argument was me providing any shred of evidence that Asura can fight at high speeds. Which was a fatal mistake.

3.0 - The Issue of Strength

Obviously Asura subdued Viltra due to his own power as well, but moving at such speeds amps striking power and is not the same as standing still and punching someone.

So what happens if Asura throws a punch at light speed?

:P

You don't need to explain what burst is, it's just a gameplay mechanic to represent Asura unleashing his best hits for a short period of time. The idea that the hits merely served to power up the burst gauge is asinine. You're falling back on a gameplay mechanic to cover up those dozens upon dozens of punches that did nothing.

It wouldn't make sense otherwise though. The contrary would imply that dozens of regular punches did nothing to Wyzen yet one additional regular punch completely vaporized him. The difference is clearly the Burst.

>Asura was hitting Wyzen so furiously that his own arms broke<, something that you've just ignored. Back to a point in my original post, you've basically conceeded here that Asura hitting at high speeds is equivalent to trading striking power for speed because a single, uber charged attack did more than dozens. The sad thing about this debate is that this is the best feat you've shown for Asura and it's not enough to even make Hulk react to it. You keep hammering on about Mantra Asura but you haven't shown him do anything.

That happens to be the best on panel striking feat for Asura yes. But there's two reasons why that doesn't matter

  • Mantra Asura is several dozens of times more powerful than 6 Arm Vajra.
  • You outright conceded that the feat was above standard planet busting. Your only gripe with is was the fact that you deem it took Asura dozens of blows.
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Even if I agree with you that it took Asura dozens of punches, the fact that Mantra Asura dwarfs 6 Arm Vajra in power completely negates that. Now we just add the fact that Asura has a feat of throwing punches at lightspeed and it's simply GG for Hulk.

No, how convenient for YOU to make it seem like Asura got up straight away, when in reality he was unconsious for an unknown period of time, and was still down for another 20 seconds of Yasha just staring at him...

In fact, what the hell are you even talking about? They didn't have a harrowing battle, Asura was so weakened that Yasha basically mollywhopped him with zero effort, Asura couldn't even hurt him with his best hits (IIRC Yasha was only even moved by Asura's final headbutt).

Like, it got to the point that Yasha stopped avoiding Asura's hits because he didn't even need to. It's worth bringing up that this blatantly shows that Asura can't sustain his maximum power output when he's been damaged, which hurts his chances against Hulk greatly because Bruce is the complete opposite - if anything, Hulk would just come back from injuries healed and stronger.

You pretty much strawmanned me here. The point was that Asura wasn't completely down for the count and was still capable of fighting afterwards. I'm well aware Yasha stomped him. It's kind of a plot point since he goes to the Naraka afterlife for the second time. Again, this doesn't matter because you're scrutinizing a weaker version of Asura. Also that last statement is false, Asura can create arms made of mantra when he loses them (ep. 11.5) and he gets stronger when he's angry.

"Mantra Asura is much stronger"

"Doesn't matter because Mantra Asura"

"Nuh uh Mantra Asura".

Are you going to actually show Mantra Asura doing anything or are you just going to keep deflecting everything I say because Mantra Asura is unquantifably stronger?

Addressed.

It shows Asura struggling casually with an attack that isn't even continent level, in your previous post you literally claimed that Six armed Asura would be dishing out and tanking planet destroying punches willy nilly.

Again, lack of environmental damage doesn't detract from an attack's potency. I gave you the Skaar example earlier, but luckily for me, you provide another one that I can use against you..

To demonstrate why that matters lets use Incredible Hulk #98. Caiera charged the old power and unleashed a palm strike on Hulk's chest...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Caeira was actually channeling the power of Sakaars rotation, and the force didn't hit Hulk's outer body, it attacked his insidesas Pak explained in his novel...

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Hulk literally took a hit powered by the rotation of a Planet larger than Earth, directed into his chest, punctured his lungs and blew up his heart, and got back up with his bones already knitting themselves back together in seconds, whilst in a >weakened< and pre-core breach state. After this Hulk got his power back, got amped by anger, got amped by a bomb, and the version of Hulk we've gotten to is Green Scar.

"But we can see the damage done to their surroundings, or lack thereof"

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"It only caused an earthquake which is mid tier"

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Do you get my point? The attack is obviously impressive because of the Sakaar rotation thing. And all of the force was channeled into Hulk, so the fact that we don't see any major damage to the surroundings can't be used to downplay the feat. When Augus impaled Asura straight through the planet, there was only a multi-continent sized shock-wave (well, in addition to the fact that the planet was skewered like a toothpick through cheese), but that in no way can be used to say Asura has below planet level durability... I mean he was stabbed in the gut, so similar to Hulk, his body clearly absorbed most of the force behind the attack.

A planet doesn't have to be destroyed every single time a character with planet level strength trades blows. And a lack of destruction doesn't mean they aren't using a high level of force in a certain encounter. I mean when Caiera hit Hulk, she used the Sakaar's rotational energy right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that have interfered with the planet's rotation (which would have catastrophic global effects)? That's actually something to consider.

World Breaker Hulk is when that Hulk goes super saiyan, and now he has Immortal Hulk's healing which is even better than Green Scar's. So, if I haven't said it enough, Asura is not hurting Hulk here.

I passionately disagree. Hulk can shrug off planet level force, that's fine. But Mantra Asura should be at least planet level in striking. Notice I'm not even pressing "planet+ vaporizing" anymore; I'm downplaying my own arguments to get the message across just so you can see why Hulk can't win the match. Because Asura's strength is at least in the same ballpark as Hulk, the fact that Asura is simply much faster than him (WHICH YOU HAVE CONCEDED) guarantees a victory.

Even if you don't think Asura can blitz, Hulk just simply can not beat someone who is comparable to him in strength but has the advantage of being much faster. It just outright doesn't make sense. Asura can spam him down with punches and is fast enough to avoid getting tagged by punches. So he wins. Why can't you see this?

This is unequivacly false. Asura doesn't have the power to just throw around his best hits all the time because they do things like knock his arms off

Literally the ONLY time this has happened was against Wyzen. He threw every ounce of his power into his final punch against Vlitra and he didn't lose his arm from it.

Stop pretending like it's a consistent natural side effect of Asura using full force, because it's not. And that was Vajra Asura.

and tend to come when he's extremely pissed off

Which is virtually all the time?

not to mention his high speed punches never pack the same power that his charged punches do.

I will agree with this point. High speed barrages each don't have the force of Burst punches. But still, Asura will have many opportunities to throw charged punches at Hulk because of the speed gap. So the question still remains: How many planet level blows can Hulk take repeatedly before keeling over?

To be honest, you don't really have a counter to this tactic because it avoids straight up blunt force impact and relies more on brute strength. Which Hulk has in spades. He's done shit like pull a planet back together that was larger than Earth whilst weakened and has straight up manhandled groups of heroes, who individually are massively stronger than Asura such as Hercules and Jane Thor (2). All in considerably weaker forms than what Asura is dealing with here.

Cool. Now all you have to do is show me instances where Hulk successfully manages to grapple and wrestle with a relativistic character while they were using their speed, and then this will become a viable tactic.

4.0 - Everything Else

Why would it be above planet level?? It didn't KO Asura, it just destroyed his arms. The fall from Orbit did the same thing and we clearly saw the impact that caused and it was nowhere near planet level.

I've countered using "the impact it caused" as a legitimate way to debunk a feat like that. But to answer your question, Asura was able to overpower Wyzen pressing down on him before he actually destroyed him. The volume of Wyzen's entire index finger was at least a countries landmass, but it was also moving at reentry speeds (was on fire due to ablation and atmospheric friction).

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What makes this planetary is Wyzen would have put his own strength into it after noticing Asura push back, which was precisely here:

Considering Wyzen could one-shot Gohma carriers with single blows in BASE form at human sizes, to disagree with me stating that he would have planet level strength when he's PLANET sized would just be stupid on your end... on anybody's end, really. So yes, True Form Vlitra's blast overpowering Asura is a feat because he has planetary strength. But what's impressive is that it subdued both Asura and Yasha TOGETHER, so it would actually be multi-planetary in raw force.

Making Mantra Asura completely no-selling the same blast all the more impressive as far as durability goes.

So Asura can last maybe 15 minutes in a high intensity battle before he gets weakened enough that Hulk can oneshot him in his Mantra form?

You're getting 15 minutes from gameplay aren't you? LMAO. There was no in-universe time frame given for their fight. Hulk wouldn't even last that long realistically.

Surely this just debunks your own showing of Asura fighting for 500 years? (which isn't even canon, but at this point I think Asura needs all the feats he can get so I'm not bothered by it).

It doesn't, and I'm glad you're not bothered by it because I specified all feats from Mantra Asura on discord.

I don't even think you've shown Asura dodging a punch from someone than isn't Wyzen, who is probably slower than me.

Wyzen is massively hypersonic and every named character Asura fought for an extended period of time was his equal to him or stronger than him. You yourself literally pointed that out with Yasha, Augus was his fricking' martial arts teacher, Deus was the leader of the Guardian Generals/Seven Deities and Vlitra was the damn penultimate antagonist of the entire series.

Lazy debating. Things like oneshotting Thor and bending Toomie in weaker forms is simply above what Asura can deal with and you're most likely aware of this.

How is one-shotting Thor above what Asura can deal with? You've stooped to a new level of lowballing. You think bullet timing is faster than what he can outpace and one-shotting sub-planetary characters is sufficient to put him down? Even though I posted an irrefutable feat of him swimming through a planet+ level attack?

I've gone over Asura's speed so much and at this point i'm positive that you have nothing else to show. It's a shame, because coming into this I was admittedly apprehensive. Now I just think that Hulk beats Asura's face in.

Here ya go (yet again):

Hulk doesn't need to have the feats that you're asking for because your own assessment here is incredibly flawed.

Asura's high speed punches pack less power than his best hits, he trades power for speed and vice versa. There's not a single shred of evidence in the entire game that he can bust out his strongest hits at high speed while maintaining the same level of strength behind them.

Addressed.

Asura just is not as fast as you claim he is, and whatever speed he does have Hulk is capable of reacting to.

False.

This whole 500 years of fighting thing directly contradicts multiple examples of Asura getting gassed out in much shorter time frames, even in his Mantra form.

Like what....

Lastly, Asura's striking power is not in league with Hulk.In the same dlc, Vajra Asura slammed Ryu into the moon from Earth at high speed whilst screaming and the impact is nowhere even close to Moon level...

Addressed.

This is Asura flat out bullrushing the Moon and he does nothing significant to it, Mantra Asura could be 10X stronger than this and it still would pale in comparison to Hulk busting a planet and cracking a moon casually without even touching either.

Skaar's 100 trillion ton hit couldn't even bust a mountain though, and Caeira's planet rotation punched caused earthquakes. If we want to use your logic, Asura's feats against Akuma, Ryo, and Augus are actually better.

Mantra Asura is dozens of times stronger than a version of Asura YOU YOURSELF SAID HAD A FEAT ABOVE STANDARD PLANET BUSTING.

The fact of the matter is that Mantra Asura is basically featless and there's hardly any evidence to suggest how much stronger he is than Vajra Asura.

False/Addressed.

Even if speed were to somehow become an issue, I already showed a thunderclap from a weaker Hulk being enough to temporarily blast away the TOBA and millions of his monsters, who individually were giving a weakened Hulk and hollow A-Bomb trouble.

"Giving a weakened Hulk trouble" is the definition of vague and quantifiable and sure as hell isn't enough to garner Mantra Asura's attention.

Everything else you said doesn't change the outcome.

5.0 - Conclusion

Looking back on it, I could've ended this within the first two posts if I had posted Asura's combat speed feats and shown the objective, quantified disparity between Mantra and Vajra Asura.

But now I'm glad I didn't, because Bagel was so confident that both were nonexistent (which only proves his "research" wasn't actually research, but digging for things to lowball with like I had guessed), so he effectively backed himself into a corner.

Thedailybagel: You as a human being physically, literallycan not win the speed argument now. Because I linked a streamable video that showed Vajra Asura punching away/deflecting dozens of energy beam projectiles, which, when fired by a weaker form of Vlitra, already clocked in at sub-relativistic. I also proved in section 1.0 the objective disparity in physical stats between Vajra Asura and Mantra Asura (many dozens of times). So Asura is irrefutably fast enough to land at least multiple punches on Hulk before can react. Notice how I dropped the thousands of punches argument... I simply don't need it to steelman you. Hulk has no feats to suggest he can survive planet+ blows repeatedly for 500 years straight.

Like I said before. This match is very simple. So I'll reiterate.

Even if you don't think Asura can blitz, Hulk just simply can not beat someone who is comparable to him in strength but has the advantage of being much faster. It just outright doesn't make sense. Asura can spam him down with punches and is fast enough to avoid getting tagged by punches. So he wins. Why can't you see this?

The floor is yours, my man.

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HigherPower

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WollfMyth209

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I am enjoying this. Also refreshing to see posts come out so quickly.

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blackpantherisb

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This is an excellent CaV, I can’t wait to vote.

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#58 Rac95  Online

T4V

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Cergic

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Nice 3rd post/wrapper

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Thedailybagel

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The knockout round

Admittedly this has been the most fun I've had in a debate for quite some time Vulcan, I apologise on my side as well for any percieved aggression but that's simply how I do things, so I don't take it personally and I hope you feel the same. At this point I'll mostly be supporting my own arguments seeing as at this point I think we both have our opinions pretty set in stone. Since you set out the key areas of the debate quite nicely, I'll go through them, reiterate my arguments and display why I disagree so strongly with them, as well as put forth my final reasoning on why Asura simply isn't winning this. Hulk, you have anything to say to Asura before we start?

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Flaws in Vulcan's powerscaling

Vulcan's argument is pretty much solely reliant on two things and has been since the conception of this debate:

  1. Asura being lightspeed consistently in combat
  2. Mantra Asura being absurdly more powerful than Vajra Asura since he lacks feats of his own

Without these things, this fight wouldn't even be a discussion and I intend to go over both points in allot of detail in this post. I've covered speed pretty extensively and I intend to put the nail in the coffin soon. What I haven't really covered is Mantra Asura. I was waiting for you to present your argument before I said anything and after seeing it... You've pretty much played all your cards. Not only was it a lackluster hand, but I have yet to play all of mine.

So let's dissect some forms. Base is self explanatory; that's pretty much Asura's resting state. In serious combat, he usually ascends to Vajra off the bat. Vajra Asura is his primary fighting form, and the form in which the speed feat I posted in my opener comes from. At the beginning of the series, Vajra Asura can be seen fighting the army of Gohma that Vlitra unleashed to combat the Shinkoku Fleet. At this point, Asura put it notable effort and actually needed Yasha's help just to escape being sandwiched by two of Vlitra's larger spawn...

But after getting a permanent mantra boost from his daughter Mithra, Asura ascended to 6 Armed Vajra form, wherein he was capable of single-handedly KO'ing Vlitra itself with 3 punches.

This is important for a few reasons:

  • The absolute largest class of Gohma are the Gohma Carriers, which kind of act as ships or transports for other Gohma into space. Their impurity level is 240,000 and Vajra Asura needed effort to destroy them (and occasionally help).

Essentially, your entire argument relies on the fact that Asura got slowed down by some Gohma, and then got amped and subdued Viltra, which in turn serves as a basis for his jump in power when reaching his Mantra form.....

...Vulcan, you do realise that Asura wasn't actually struggling with the Gohma? He was momentarily slowed because a carrier bumped into him and a lasher just happened to swallow him (Lasher's have an impurity level of 14,000 and were being killed by fodder machines) but he was otherwise completely unharmed. Asura already casually oneshotted a Carrier in his base form:

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Heck, Wyzen oneshotted a carrier as well and Asura onepunched him in his base form after a short in game fight as you already showed...

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I mean this is clear evidence that individual carriers posed literally zero issue for the generals... But what absolutely kills your argument is that the exact same thing that happened to Asura also happened to Augus, except it was done by a Lasher which is nearly 20X weaker than what slowed down Asura.

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At this point in the story Augus was undoubtedly stronger than Six armed Vajra Asura even after Mithra amped him seeing as he took on an even more motivated and angrier Asura later in the game and was winning until the end - ergo, he could have done exactly the same thing to Viltra if not easier. Yet he was still delayed by something considerably weaker than what you're using as the basis for your evidence. This leaves a pretty simple conclusion.

  • Asura wasn't struggling with Gohma, at all. Someone that could have replicated (and exceeded) his Viltra feat was also slowed down in the exact same way by something far weaker. Ergo...
  • All the Gohma did was pose a nuisance. Ergo,
  • Your scaling failed.

This is significant because Mantra Asura is simply another form that was unlocked by yet another amp from his daughter Mithra.

However, the boost from Mithra this time is much, MUCH bigger, because as seen in the video, Mithra unleashed all the Mantra stored in the Karma Fortress, which was energy from human souls that the Guardians had been collecting for 12,500 years. On top of that, Asura and Yasha were fighting the True Form of Vlitra, which was much stronger.

Without needing to descend into DBZ/NNT type power level scaling, or SethTheProgrammer-tier form stacking, I think I've demonstrated very clearly the difference in power between Mantra Asura and the forms that proceed it.

The jump is objectively in the dozens at minimum, which is the gap between Vajra Asura and 6 Arm Vajra. So Mantra Asura is at least dozens of times stronger and faster than a version who completed a planet level feat and danced around sub-relativistic energy beams.

Your.

Scaling.

Is.

'Objectively'.

Broken.

Vulcan, you are pulling numbers out of nowhere because you don't have a single relevant feat to support your argument that Mantra Asura is anywhere comparable to Hulk's physicals. Luckily, we have exactly two comparisons to draw on with regards to Mantra Asura and weaker forms. The first is Viltra's energy blast, which Six Armed Asura took pretty well other than losing his additional arms but otherwise pretty much shrugged off...

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So all we know from this by feats and not shoddy powerscaling is that Mantra Asura can power through an attack that Vajra Asura can mostly tank although will lose his extra arms in the process, but those arms were destroyed repeatedly throughout the game by:

  1. being slammed into Earth from the Moon by Augus
  2. causing planetary level output against Wyzen (which certainly suggests that they'd break far easier if hit with that level of force or even below)
  3. Atmospheric re-entry - we know this is what caused it because two arms blew up as soon as Asura caught on fire

Suffice to say it doesn't take a huge amount of effort to accomplish and there's probably more examples that I've missed. All we can reasonably gain from this is that Asura's Mantra form is a good deal stronger than his Six armed form... However a good deal stronger than someone who basically paralysed themself to complete a planetary feat is not nearly enough to deal with WBH, let alone a composite version backed with Immortal Hulk's healing.

Finally, the way you've hyped Asura's forms is in such a way that you've made it seem each escalation could kill the prior one with a fart. If Mantra Asura is dozens of times stronger than Six Armed Vajra at a minimum, he should feasibly kill him with a flick. The problem with that analysis is that we have directly seen Base Asura fight someone who is exact equals with Mantra Asura in the form of Oni/Akuma...

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Asura in his base form is capable of percieving, catching, holding back and then deflecting a charged attack from Oni - who you established as stalemating Mantra Asura for 500 years straight. Now, Asura is clearly outclassed and the effort throws him backwards, but nowhere near what your interpretation would make it. You can have statements, power levels, implications or powerscaling, but feats always take precident and these are two such examples which objectively you can not argue against. Base Asura was not blitzed and oneshotted - he was close enough that he could resist a charged attack even if a significant gap was evident. You can have all the scaling in the world Vulcan, but I actually have feats to support my arguments and they suggest that the gap between Mantra Asura and prior forms is not as big as you would make it seem.

This section was much longer than I wanted, but I feel like it was nessacary to showcase why Vulcan's shoddy attempts at powerscaling were not only flawed, but moreso overshadowed by actual feats and comparisons instead of guesswork and multipliers.

The final word on Asura's speed

Some of my rebuttals in this section are going to be a little long winded, because the problem at hand is simply Bagel's logic and his way of thinking. So I need to explain why he is wrong in a way that he can understand.

Before I start I wanted to address this because It's an extremely arrogant and condescending tone to take. Throughout this debate you've used phrases like "Bagels problem is his way of thinking", "really, what can poor Hulk do", "why can't you see things my way". All of which are not only insulting but come from a position that you expect me and everyone else to conform to your opinion. The reason we're having this discussion is because we have a difference in opinion, the whole point of CaV's is the my interpretation vs yours mentality and our job as debaters is to prove why one interpretation is more convincing than another.

Vulcan, the reason I'm not agreeing with your interpretation is because you aren't doing a good enough job convincing me when weighed against what I believe. With that said, you keep claiming to draw back on the tone and until now I've let it slide, stick to debating and not insulting my intelligence because this has been fun and I don't want it tarnished by snarky remarrks.

Starting from here. The thing is, I don't need to do this. A character only needs a feat of performing at a certain speed in a way that is applicable to combat for you to argue them operating at that speed in a combat situation. Many characters with nanosecond timing feats haven't actually completed entire fights in nanoseconds; nor would they need to in order to be argued at FTL in a combat scenario.

Simply performing actions and body movements within a nanosecond is enough to merit a character being able to move at FTL speeds, which can be applicable to combat if they were shown doing certain body movements or activating techniques. A good example of this (but not nanosecond timing) is when Superman inspected every last minute detail of his surroundings, rescued someone, checked out a woman with crystal for bones, and examined an alien spaceship all within a thousandth of a second.

This would be combat applicable because he performed complex actions at a speed that can be quantified. Based on this, wouldn't you agree that Superman is capable of blitzing supersonic and even hypersonic characters? Asura's laser feat is applicable to combat because they were homing lasers that he deftly evaded and outpaced with ease. He was twirling, spinning, swerving, and shifting. But seeing how stubborn you've been with this argument I know this won't be enough, soI'll simply oblige to your request.

Using Superman as a stand in for Asura is incredibly flawed, not only does he have dozens of instances wherein his combat speed is showcased, referenced, stated or applied, but that instance in particular was created with intent to show Clark performing a series of complex actions at high speed and the speed itself was spoonfed to us. Asura does not have a single feat like that. You cannot prove that Asura vs lasers was created with the deliberate intent to showcase that he can fight at lightspeed all the damn time as opposed to just looking cinematic seeing as it's extremely inconsistent with the rest of his showings. I still have more evidence on my side which I'll showcase for the final time soon, yet you, 3 posts in, have nothing but lasers.

Here is 6 Armed Vajra Asura punching away dozens of True-Form Vlitra's lasers alongside Yasha. So he can throw dozens of punches at relativistic speeds.

> "Please, ANYTHING BUT LASERS. There's so much evidence against Asura's speed, something other than lasers"

> Uses the exact same lasers

I'm gonna cut to the chase, there's too much evidence against Asura having lightspeed combat for lasers to be a reliable argument. I've shown Hulk dodge a beam of solar energy which is theoretically lightspeed to try and illustrate my point but screw it. I'll match your reasoning by using Silver Surfer in Infinity Crusade #4. Long Story short, a being called the Goddess created a world and Surfer under Thanos's guidance absorbed a huge amount of power from the Sun that caused him to lose basically all mental activity and bee lined towards the planet to create an explosive distraction. In Silver Surfer #84 we can clearly see Norrin whizzing past planets near instantly let alone the fact that we know how fast he is non amped. Case in point - Norrin was slightly off course, so after a punch from Drax to send him the right way, Hulk was clearly capable of percieving him, assessing the distance and managed to throw a rock at him to complete his realignment in the right direction...

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There, Hulk reacted to an object moving at sub relativistic speeds based on Norrin's distance travelled so Hulk is officially lightspeed because now I have two seperate examples to support my argument.

Except he isn't, because the intent of these showings clearly had nothing to do with Hulk being that fast. Not to mention there's mountains of evidence against Hulk actually operating at these speeds... In the same way that Asura has showings with lasers but far more contradictory evidence to prove otherwise. I've tried to meet you halfway by demonstrating Hulk himself dodging a beam of solar energy to show the irony, and I've demonstrated him react to Gladiator attempting to BFR him with a tactic that has worked against even Supreme and smack a blitzing sentry in the face. The latter two are more reasonable, and now I've demonstrated him react to an amped Silver Surfer travelling at high speed to illustrate the flaw with your logic, my case is strengthened by the fact that each of these beings have actual quantifiable speed feats that don't include lasers. Even Base Asura could avoid Viltra's lasers temporarily, and we later saw him dash and narrowly avoid multiple blows from a few fodder machines...

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I don't think you quite understand how fast lightspeed is... If Asura was even a 10th of that speed here he could have jogged around that room 18 times, undressed everyone in there, completed a work out set, read a few novels, then come back to his original position and everyone would still be in the same position as when he left and it's the same case scenario for almost everything else in the game. I will restate this again for the last time...

Asura does not show anything close to Lightspeed or even a thousandth of that speed at any point in the game pre destructor form and I have used a multitude of examples to support this. You have used nothing but lasers and haven't even attempted to counter my points. Asura is not blitzing shit. Next.

Also for your info, in Destructor Form, Asura reacts to beams from Chakravartin that crossed tens of thousands of light years in seconds. So your bold claims are nothing more than demonstrable lies.

"UMMMM uhhh I don't have, um, anything to actually support my point so I'll use an irrelevant feat from a form of Asura that explicitly has nothing to do with this thread to help me instead"

This is like me trying to use space punisher Hulk, Destructor Asura is a massively amped form for two reasons and has nothing to do with this discussion. Next.

I already posted gifs of Asura repeatedly hitting someone at high speed. Against Augus and Akuma.

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This proves that Asura spamming punches at high speeds isn't out of character or anything (Wyzen, anyone?)

A blitz is automatic when the speed gap is as large as it is here.

This is just Asura throwing a few dozen punches in a short burst, this is the only type of blitz that he ever performs and these punches are objectively, inconcieavably weaker than what Asura can dish out with his single, charged attacks. Bursts like this have no showings to even put them on a planetary level even taking into account Asura's Mantra form so are useless to apply them against Hulk. Your own instance of Wyzen is basically a hard counter to your own argument, and if you need more proof... The Gohma carriers that Asura and Wyzen could oneshot required dozens of high speed punches for Asura to take them down in comparison to one big hit. The reason for this is pretty much idential to how I argue against say Superman's speed: Asura sacrifices striking power for speed, or quality for quantity as it were.

Bullet timing is too fast for Asura to blitz? Really?

*Bullet timing is better than blitzing Sergei or Vajra Wyzen.

Yes.

Wyzen is faster than Hulk as he was shown zipping through space, crossing thousands of kilometers and destroying Gohma alongside the other Guardians at decidedly MHS speeds.

...

...

But wait lemme guess, like the sword, and the floating rocks on the moon, and Yasha's mouth, and the fodder robots, and the lashers that tagged Augus, and the Carrier which tagged Asura, and Mithra because she could clearly see Asura and Augus falling to Earth - Vajra Wyzen (the Wyzen in my example) is also moving at lightspeed due to "Asian media content"?

I get where you're coming from, but characters with super speed aren't always moving at that speed. You could say when Asura bisects Augus that he was using super speed since he was launching an attack, but while armless and laying on the ground he wouldn't be. So asking me whether the sword was moving light speed makes no sense.

That argument is based on nothing... We have no visual representation at all of Asura speeding up massively to deliver an attack, the speed is consistent throughout other than some slow motion to highlight the fact that they're both like "oh shit, that massively ftl sword is broken, I better try catch it". I mean screw Asura, why didn't Augus react to it who was basically unharmed and equal to Asura in virtually every way?

You do realise that even if they could percieve things at one thousandth of the speed of light, that sword would literally not be moving from their perspective? To quote yourself, why can't you see this?

This is starting to get annoying because your concept of anti-feats aren't actual anti-feats. Literally nothing you've posted is a contradiction to Asura's speed. Asura is fighting someone who is physically equal in stats to him there, and there are other instances in THAT VERY FIGHT where they traded uncountable blows in single seconds, based on animation and all. And you know this is a video game were many times the angles and shots are altered in a specific way for dramatic effect. I mean, sometimes Asura and Akuma's clashes were grapples and the locking of fists. They would also be sizing each other up or drawing out their clashes. You're looking at a typical brawl in a very narrow minded and one-dimensional way.

I couldn't care less about Asura fighting an equal anymore, it's a lame argument that you keep resorting to in an attempt to cover up his lack of speed. My point is that you can literally see rocks floating and falling around them both relative to their speed. Again, if they were moving at a thousandth of lightspeed, those rocks would not be moving.

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At this point I'm going overboard but I feel like I need to. When Asura and Oni first enter the moon, it looks like this:

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They then fight for literally 30 seconds inside the Moon and then it looks like this:

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If Asura and Akuma were fighting at even the sub relativistic speed that you claimed Six Armed Asura had, the moon would not look any different than what it does in the first picture. Instead it looks like... 30 seconds have passed.

It's not even something that can be denied. You can't win this side of the argument, simply because the focal point of your entire speed argument was me providing any shred of evidence that Asura can fight at high speeds. Which was a fatal mistake.

I think the reverse is true, Vulcan. I've explained why using Lasers is a faulty guage when so many contradictions are evident and I've practically thrown piles of evidence at you, comparisons ranging from each of Asura's forms, and I've torn apart your scaling argument. Asura's combat speed is not impressive and I've at least had the decency to show Hulk's reactions to compensate even if it were a problem. Next.

The physical gap

To be honest, there's only a few things that I wanted to address here because I'll just end up repeating things I've said before.

That happens to be the best on panel striking feat for Asura yes. But there's two reasons why that doesn't matter

  • Mantra Asura is several dozens of times more powerful than 6 Arm Vajra.
  • You outright conceded that the feat was above standard planet busting. Your only gripe with is was the fact that you deem it took Asura dozens of blows.

Even if I agree with you that it took Asura dozens of punches, the fact that Mantra Asura dwarfs 6 Arm Vajra in power completely negates that. Now we just add the fact that Asura has a feat of throwing punches at lightspeed and it's simply GG for Hulk.

I conceeded that the feat was above traditional planet busting, but that feat completely crippled Asura and it's still not as impressive as what Hulk did casually. You can argue that Mantra Asura is stronger which is true, but I've demonstarted that the gap isn't as large as you've made it seem. Furthermore, the fact that it took every ounce of Vajra Asura's being to accomplish means that it's well above his normal capabilities. Could Mantra Asura replicate it easier? Yes. But easily? No, and there's factually nothing concrete you can use to change that other than vague multipliers which are contradicted by actual feats, so even if we assume that Asura can hit much harder than that without killing himself it's still not enough to cause Hulk any harm. Which is a shame, because you could literally punch a hole through Hulk's head and it wouldn't slow him down.

Again, lack of environmental damage doesn't detract from an attack's potency. I gave you the Skaar example earlier, but luckily for me, you provide another one that I can use against you..

Do you get my point? The attack is obviously impressive because of the Sakaar rotation thing. And all of the force was channeled into Hulk, so the fact that we don't see any major damage to the surroundings can't be used to downplay the feat. When Augus impaled Asura straight through the planet, there was only a multi-continent sized shock-wave (well, in addition to the fact that the planet was skewered like a toothpick through cheese), but that in no way can be used to say Asura has below planet level durability... I mean he was stabbed in the gut, so similar to Hulk, his body clearly absorbed most of the force behind the attack.

A planet doesn't have to be destroyed every single time a character with planet level strength trades blows. And a lack of destruction doesn't mean they aren't using a high level of force in a certain encounter. I mean when Caiera hit Hulk, she used the Sakaar's rotational energy right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that have interfered with the planet's rotation (which would have catastrophic global effects)? That's actually something to consider.

Normally I do agree with the sentiment that enviromental damage doesn't detract from an attack's potency, but that's only when you aren't actually attacking the enviroment. For instance, I'd say Hulk being attacked by Galaxy master in Incredible Hulk #112 and being blasted by Hiro Kala in Incredible Hulks #616 are both easily planetary feats...

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Even though neither instance caused a planet to explode, Galaxy Master was someone that literally destroyed planets for shits and giggles but was forced to resort to gas tactics to beat Hulk indicating that he couldn't put him down with energy projection. Whereas Hiro Kala was causing K'ai to tear apart and Skaar told him as much. So yes, I agree with the statement that an attack doesn't have to bust a planet to prove that it's planet busting... But that's not what you're implying. My feats show Asura either being slammed into, slamming into, or attacking in some manner actual celestial bodies and not doing any siginificant damage to them. Your objection here is that you can essentially ram into a planet, not bust it or cause any significant damage, but the attack is still planet busting, which is downright ridiculous, specially when detail is made to show shockwaves and destruction to sell the impact as is the case in Asura's showings. I'm not even going to bother addressing that any further because I think it's self explanatory and yet another cop out for Asura getting harmed by far less than planetary showings and dishing out less to boot.

I passionately disagree. Hulk can shrug off planet level force, that's fine. But Mantra Asura should be at least planet level in striking. Notice I'm not even pressing "planet+ vaporizing" anymore; I'm downplaying my own arguments to get the message across just so you can see why Hulk can't win the match. Because Asura's strength is at least in the same ballpark as Hulk, the fact that Asura is simply much faster than him (WHICH YOU HAVE CONCEDED) guarantees a victory.

Even if you don't think Asura can blitz, Hulk just simply can not beat someone who is comparable to him in strength but has the advantage of being much faster. It just outright doesn't make sense. Asura can spam him down with punches and is fast enough to avoid getting tagged by punches. So he wins. Why can't you see this?

This is such a one dimensional viewpoint. Firstly, I have not once conceeded that Asura is much, much faster than what Hulk can deal with. You put that in my mouth before I even posted my opener. Asura is faster, that's true. But that speed means nothing if using it means he won't hurt Hulk. Asura punching at high speed greatly reduces his striking power as I have said repeatedly, even Asura's biggest attacks have not been displayed as being nearly as powerful as Hulk's are. Destroying a planet is one thing, but destroying it by punching someone else is magnitudes higher. And Hulk has outright no sold hits from his equal who could do that which I've shown before, and which was shown again here:

This version of Betty undoubtedly hits harder than anything Asura showed pre destructor form - the planet is literally falling apart due to their punches
This version of Betty undoubtedly hits harder than anything Asura showed pre destructor form - the planet is literally falling apart due to their punches

In fact, we get multiple panels of the planet being destroyed whilst Hulk and Betty remain unmoved constantly trading hits...

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To reieterate, they were fighting constantly for an unknown period of time whilst the planet and everyone on it was destroyed again, and again, and again. Not because they were hitting the planet, but the mere act of hitting each other.

And neither of them were harmed, at all. Even if I were to assume that Asura's striking power was on par with this, not only has Hulk been shown to no sell it, but his healing factor can keep him alive with his heart cut in half, his spine removed and pretty much every body part you can imagine seperated and he can still reform it all instantly. He even healed from Banner being reduced to a complete skeleton and the only reason it wasn't instantaneous was due to the Avengers keeping Hulk away with high doses of UV radiation.

Every time Hulk hits Asura, it will hurt, allot, and the damage will stay with him for the rest of the fight.

On the flip side, you have literally brought nothing to the table that Bruce couldn't no sell, even if Asura could spam his best hits at high speed (which he can't) it wouldn't be enough to do significant damage, let alone overwhelm Hulk's healing factor.

Even in the scenario that Asura wears Hulk down, hits him constantly, over and over again with the same level of force that Bruce can generate, all Hulk needs to do is land one punch or thunderclap to buy himself a few seconds and then Asura is back to square one... In fact worse than that since Asura will still be carrying injuries whilst Hulk is healed and even stronger than before. And this is assuming that:

  1. Asura can totally outspeed Hulk to the point he could hardly percieve him, which he can't.
  2. Asure could punch as hard as Hulk can, which he can't.

Literally the ONLY time this has happened was against Wyzen. He threw every ounce of his power into his final punch against Vlitra and he didn't lose his arm from it.

Stop pretending like it's a consistent natural side effect of Asura using full force, because it's not. And that was Vajra Asura.

Vulcan, I'm not pretending because it is. It also happened against Augus:

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Maybe Augus's sword and Wyzen were extremely durable which is what caused it, but Hulk is substantially more durable than both of them. Even if it didn't against Viltra, it left him so weakened that a sub planetary explosion knocked him out of his Mantra form and left him KOed, ergo that's at least 3 different occasions where Asura delivered a punch with his 'all' behind it and was left weakened or armless as a result. Either that, or Asura is just that weak. Take your pick.

Cool. Now all you have to do is show me instances where Hulk successfully manages to grapple and wrestle with a relativistic character while they were using their speed, and then this will become a viable tactic.

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Tales to Astonish #92

Hulk managed to catch up to and even grab Silver Surfer moving around so fast that Hulk couldn't even see him.

Twice.

It's not like I needed to show this, though. But it does make it more likely that he'll be able to react to Asura at some point, grab him, and tear him in half in the same way Immortal Hulk tore hollow Red Hulk in half (2). Which you've pretty much conceeded Hulk can do at this point if he manages to grab Asura.

I've countered using "the impact it caused" as a legitimate way to debunk a feat like that. But to answer your question, Asura was able to overpower Wyzen pressing down on him before he actually destroyed him. The volume of Wyzen's entire index finger was at least a countries landmass, but it was also moving at reentry speeds (was on fire due to ablation and atmospheric friction).

What makes this planetary is Wyzen would have put his own strength into it after noticing Asura push back, which was precisely here:

Considering Wyzen could one-shot Gohma carriers with single blows in BASE form at human sizes, to disagree with me stating that he would have planet level strength when he's PLANET sized would just be stupid on your end... on anybody's end, really. So yes, True Form Vlitra's blast overpowering Asura is a feat because he has planetary strength. But what's impressive is that it subdued both Asura and Yasha TOGETHER, so it would actually be multi-planetary in raw force

That doesn't make it planetary, Wyzen regardless of his size was poking Asura with his finger which would make it practically impossible for him to apply all his strength even if he put his all into it... Like, if Wyzen went and used a double handed smash Asura would have been killed - let alone the fact that it only encompassed Asura and Yasha which doesn't mean there durabilities to stack on top of each other to make it planetary. Regardless, energy attacks and Blunt force are two different things and Hulk is only really bringing one of those to the table here.

"Giving a weakened Hulk trouble" is the definition of vague and quantifiable and sure as hell isn't enough to garner Mantra Asura's attention.

Strong enough that he could rip out Absorbing Man's spine and beat him with it. Creel at the time was amped up on a perfected Red Hulk serum and half of Hulk's own gamma to the point that he was actually beating a full powered Immortal Hulk for a bit until Hulk got angry. So being at full power and pissed off he managed to destroy an army of beings that could come up on the same weakened Hulk's radar just due to the anger amp.

Final conclusion

First of all,

which only proves his "research" wasn't actually research, but digging for things to lowball with like I had guessed

Stop with the insults. I've used almost as many showings for Asura as you have, maybe more. In fact for speed I absolutely blow your argument out of the water in terms of consistency.Literally half a dozen examples that all involve different ways to demonstrate that Asura isn't as fast as you claim, whereas on the flip side you haven't budged from lasers. You have not moved from square one of the debate. I've outright caught you out on context multiples including but not limited to:

  1. Asura being able to fight a 'harrowing' battle with Yasha
  2. Asura's arms being destroyed
  3. Asura's best feat being "one full power punch" when in reality the effort left him helpless and KOed

Even in terms of Mantra Asura's power, I have more raw feats than you do to support my argument. So claiming that my research was merely lowballing is not only faulty, but misguided given that you haven't actually properly defended your claims. You've just blamed it on "asian media content" and animation, or even just flat out ignored half of my points which directly contradicted some of your big arguments (I.E. Asure being able to bathe in thunderclaps without getting ragdolled).

With that out of the way, I'm going to reassers Hulk's advantages and why they allow him to win:

  • Overall damage soak - Asura does not have a single quantifiable feat that is on par with punches or energy blasts that Hulk has outright no sold. He is flat out more durable than anything Asura has dealt with before.
  • Healing factor - Hulk is already too durable to really be hurt by anything Asura has dished out, but he can heal through virtually anything. Punch his head off? Fine. Skeleton? Cool. Entire body dismantled, heart cut in half, spine removed and his organs disected? Give him three seconds. Asura is not getting past this level of healing.
  • Striking power - Asura has never been hit as hard as what Hulk can do and has actually been harmed by significantly less. This is self explanatory
  • Brutality and raw strength - Hulk will gladly rip Asura's eyes out, tear him in half, break his hands and crush bones without a second thought. The strength gap is so signifcant that if Hulk gets a grip on him then Asura is done for because he isn't breaking it and Hulk could quite literally manhandle him with one arm and has done so to people much stronger than Asura.

The one area I've conceeded on is speed, but not by a dramatic amount because I've gone in depth on Asura's speed and Hulk's reactions/thunderclaps, not to mention his healing more than makes up for it. Ultimately for the reasons stated through the debate Asura just doesn't have what's needed to really put Hulk down, whereas Bruce more than has the means to break Asura before he can say "I don't give a damn".

I'm not sure if we'll be posting anything else after this, so for now I'll say it's been extremly fun debating with you my friend even it did get a bit heated at times :P

Loading Video...

@higherpower

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FaradaySloth

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I feel like I'm watching Austin vs Rock but in a CAV format. This should be good voting!

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BruceRogers

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Great debate guys, but please put your GIFs in spoiler blocks. They make the page lag like crazy.

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Maalik

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Wow tv4 haha.

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Major_Hellstrom

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Great debate guys, but please put your GIFs in spoiler blocks. They make the page lag like crazy.

TDB is using videos as Giphy follows the video format

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#65  Edited By HigherPower

Final Post

No Caption Provided

This was initially supposed to be a summary post; one where points are restated and wrapped up nicely as a neat little send-off for the voters. But I realized that, even with what was perceived as a character advantage on my end, Bagel brought such a relentless and convincing argument that I felt not countering would actually cost me the match. This alone speaks volumes to his capability as a debater, forcing me into a corner while being the underdog

So thank you, Bagel, for make this such an entertaining CaV. I apologized for aggressiveness and arrogance in my last post, but that post also contained statements which were out of order. Particularly this one and the response it evoked.

Some of my rebuttals in this section are going to be a little long winded, because the problem at hand is simply Bagel's logic and his way of thinking. So I need to explain why he is wrong in a way that he can understand.

Before I start I wanted to address this because It's an extremely arrogant and condescending tone to take. Throughout this debate you've used phrases like "Bagels problem is his way of thinking", "really, what can poor Hulk do", "why can't you see things my way". All of which are not only insulting but come from a position that you expect me and everyone else to conform to your opinion. The reason we're having this discussion is because we have a difference in opinion, the whole point of CaV's is the my interpretation vs yours mentality and our job as debaters is to prove why one interpretation is more convincing than another.

Vulcan, the reason I'm not agreeing with your interpretation is because you aren't doing a good enough job convincing me when weighed against what I believe. With that said, you keep claiming to draw back on the tone and until now I've let it slide, stick to debating and not insulting my intelligence because this has been fun and I don't want it tarnished by snarky remarrks.

This came out completely wrong and I want to apologize as sincerely as I can. I meant that the issue at hand was the way you judged feats and how it differed from mine—not that your logic and way of thinking was a problem in and of itself, the latter which I can now see was clearly insulting. I hope none of this spoils the newfound good-nature of our debate. And I hope that the audience will continue to enjoy our little discussion here.

That was a long intro. So let's dive right into the heart of the matter.

1.0 - Defending My Scaling

I'm not going to parse every sentence you made here. There are [two] major flaws in your argument I found that null your rebuttal.

1.1 - You ignored Impurity Levels

I put a lot of detail into explaining this, and this section of my argument was where I got my numbers from, so it's clear that it was too important to simply not be addressed. You started right out the gate by pointing out that Asura didn't actually struggle with the Gohma—and that he and other characters were able to stomp them just fine—which you then used to invalidate my scaling. The problem is, my argument didn't depend on him getting "slowed" down by a Carrier. Not even close.

On the contrary, I thought it was conspicuous that they main reason Asura's mantra amp was impressive was due to the Impurity Levels of the Gohma.

A Gohma's Impurity Level directly correlates with their difficulty to beat in combat. A Carrier has an impurity level of 240,000 and Vlitra's level was IMMEASURABLE, in all caps. You completely ignored this. Why?

I mean, it's obvious that I'm not saying Vlitra's power itself is immeasurable, and I don't need to, because we actually have a way to objectively quantify the minimum Impurity Level Vlitra has.

Vlitra literally spawns every single Gohma, and we have a shot were we can count more than two dozen Carriers, who each possess an Impurity Level of 240k...

All the tiny spearheads in the background are Carriers
All the tiny spearheads in the background are Carriers

We already know that Vlitra's Impurity Level being immeasurable means that it's drastically above a single Carrier, but now there's objective proof that, at the minimum, Vlitra's level is dozens of times above a single Carrier.

So Asura being able to 3-shot Vlitra is still impressive since we know he clearly wasn't anywhere near that strong before the amp. It wouldn't make sense in the story for him to be that strong at that point in time, which is something you can't deny. The purpose of the Brahmastra would be defeated, and being slowed down by a Carrier the way he was wouldn't even by possible since he wasn't caught off-guard when it happened.

Therefore, a Mantra amp from Mithra makes Asura at least dozens of times stronger, and Mantra form Asura is simply another, larger amp stacked on top of 6 Arm Vajra form.

Looks like my scaling didn't "fail" like you were so eager to claim. When you respond, I hope you actually counter the matter at hand, and not write it off because you don't like it; relegating the argument I put time into elucidating as mere "multipliers" because you can't actually refute the facts presented.

1.2 - Your contradictions, or lack thereof

Before I talk about this, how can you say I pulled numbers out of my ass?? I went out of my way to explain myself and how I reached the conclusions I gave and the numerical figures I presented. You complain about me supposedly being condescending, but rebuttals like this are just... false, and more to the point they undermine your opponent.

It's like you posting an on-panel feat of Hulk destroying a planet, and calling him and planet buster, and I start my response by saying "I have no idea where you got planet level Hulk from, stop pulling things from your ass". Denial is what it is.

IN MY OPENER I admitted that Mantra Asura has little to no feats on his own to drawn from, and I said, right from the birth of this debate, that he is impressive mostly when upscaling from weaker forms. So you pointing out repeatedly that Mantra Asura doesn't have feats is literally just your way of painting a mirage that makes my argument look weak when it isn't. There's no point in doing so and it's annoying. So yes, continue to bold your letters when reminding everyone that Mantra Asura needs to scale off of weaker forms to be impressive.

What have you accomplished?

===============================================================================

Moving on, I wholeheartedly agree that feats take precedence over scaling, but your anti-feats don't actually contradict anything—you just want them to. Let's peel back the onion and tackle the examples.

A) Mantra Asura didn't just power through an attack that destroyed Vajra's arms, he swam through it without resistance while 6AV was overpowered, pushed back, dazed and had his arms destroyed.

B)Your Akuma gif is intentionally misleading. I honestly thought you would have better integrity as a debater than to deliberately deceive the audience like this. Base Asura never "fought" Oni Akuma; after Akuma transformed into Oni, he swung down his hand in a chopping motion, and Asura caught it and threw it to the side in an attempts to divert the force.... which clearly demonstrates that a direct hit would have been detrimental. Otherwise, he could have chose to block the hit, or eat the hit the same way he did seconds earlier in their fight where they were both slugging it out in base form........

Here is the full scene.

Loading Video...

As you can see, Asura immediately transformed into his Mantra form to match Oni Akuma after narrowing dodging a basic attack from him. Because it was blatantly clear from the way Asura struggled to—not block, not tank—but the way he struggled to DIVERT a chop from Oni Akuma that Akuma was stronger than base Asura which required Asura to ascend to a higher form just to compete with him on even ground.

So... how is this an anti-feat again?

Like, I'm genuinely starting wonder whether you know how anti-feats work? You're supposed to show examples of Mantra Asura failing to do something far above Vajra Asura's level, IN ORDER to reach the conclusion that Mantra Asura isn't as strong as I claim he is.

But that's actually outright impossible, because I posted evidence that supports Mantra being at least 2 dozen times stronger than his previous form. Me introducing numerical figures completely changes the playing field.

Because now, in order to successfully counter my argument with anti-feats, you have to post an instance that explicitly shows that Mantra Asura [IS NOT DOZENS OF TIMES STRONGER THAN VAJRA].

I couldn't care less how many times Asura's arms have been destroyed throughout the game, none of those instances actually serve as a LEGITIMATE CONTRADICTION to Mantra Asura's power, and pretending as if Asura's fight with Akuma is a contradiction to Mantra Asura's capabilities is complete rubbish because the gameplay makes it clear that this was the intention:

Base Asura = Base Akuma

Mantra Asura = Oni Akuma

Bagel, you literally have no humanly possible way to provide numeric evidence against Mantra being dozens of times superior to Vajra. His base form narrowly diverting an attack from Akuma was used to show the gap between Oni Akuma and base, since Asura literally blew him hundreds of meters back with a punch just moments before.

I wrote a lot of words, so if you want to counter this, all you need to do is answer this question:

What evidence is there to substantiate the argument that, blowing an opponent hundreds of meters back with a punch (after trading blows equally) and then being able to just barely shift the direction of their chop, doesn't display a several dozen times increase in the power of that opponent? What actual tangible evidence supports this?

2.0 - Speed

I like how you start this section by telling me that Superman has dozens of combat speed feats. And?

You completely missed the point of me using him as an example. You literally said, and I quote you verbatim:

"[...] that instance in particular was created with intent to show Clark performing a series of complex actions at high speed [...]"

And this is literally what I said, quoted verbatim:

"This would be combat applicable because he performed complex actions at a speed that can be quantified."

Asura's feat obviously isn't of the same exact nature as Superman's, and the fact that there was a time-frame given in Superman's feat already shows this. My argument wasn't that the feats were similar, rather my argument was and still is that performing complex actions at a quantifiable speed can be applicable to combat depending on what the action is.

Asura dodging, outpacing, maneuvering and throwing punches to deflect things at a speed that can be quantified is applicable to combat.

The dissension between us is what speed does Asura do complete these actions. Let's dissect and debunk your argument.

===============================================================================

Your stance is unyielding; you have such a strong conviction for this argument that you continue to press it after 3 posts in. So what is your argument exactly?

- Asura isn't fast because his feat involves lasers.

What is your reasoning for this argument?

- "the entertainment medium has everyone dodge lasers all the time".

What is your conclusion

- "Asura is a good deal faster than Hulk, but the speed gap isn't a big issue at all"

My response to this argument has already been stated and repeated, and I do not want to further rehash it. To summarize, you have an extremely valid point about lasers in general fiction and why speed feats about them shouldn't be taken seriously. Characters dodge them all the time, and lasers are not quantifiable in speed. I agree with this, this was never something I argued against.

I get that, I get what you're saying, and it applies to many things. Even when lasers are explicitly stated to be lightspeed, it's only applicable if it's not inconsistent for a character to operate at that speed.

So what happens when a laser/energy blast/beam has an explicit speed and it's not inconsistent for a character to operate at that speed?

Well, you get Asura.

Vlitra's lasers aren't lightspeed, I never argued that they were, and that's due largely in part to them not being "lasers" so much as they are energy projections from Vlitra. They are simply energy projections with a proven speed. They crossed interplanetary distances in seconds, and it took little to no effort for me to measure the speed of the feat at mach 123k.

So I sincerely fail to see how you can use Hulk dodging Vision's beam and it being inconsistent for him to somehow discredit Asura's feat. Or how anyone cite and reference characters across all walks of fiction reacting to unquantifiable lasers as proof why Asura's feat against Vlitra isn't usable. Simply using the fact that they were lasers that he dodged doesn't make the feat unusable, that logic is abhorrent.

If a character dodges a railgun bullet that was shown to be hypersonic, would you discredit the feat for that character because other street levelers in different fictional universes have dodged bullets?

Obviously not I hope? And is the reason not primarily because a railgun bullet is different from and quantifiably faster than a regular handgun bullet? It's the exact same principal with Asura. The lasers he dodged are different in nature from and quantifiably faster than lasers that characters across all mediums have dodged. So you can't use their feats to discredit Asura's. It simply makes no sense.

2.1 - Consistency

That write-up just now was me explaining to the best of my ability why Asura's showings against Vlitra's lasers are a feat. Now that I have proven that they are with logic and reasoning, the only thing left to do is proving that the feat is consistent for him.

This isn't hard to do because of Asura's extremely low number of showings in the forms that I'm using. He only has a couple of non-gameplay cut-scene battles that are Boss fights, meaning all of them are against a character who is equal to or superior to him in physical stats, barring Wyzen. So he doesn't have any anti-feats in major combat situations.

An anti-feat that you tried to post was Asura "narrowly dodging" fodder machines. I did a double-take because I couldn't believe my eyes. You do realize that characters don't always move at their fastest speeds in every single situation... right? A character only moves at their highest speed when they require to. Asura didn't need to be moving faster than the speed he was in that gif to accomplish running through them.

Watch you did is the literal equivalent of asking me why Asura didn't move at light speed to catch Mithra here...

Loading Video...

He wouldn't want his precious daughter (who was kidnapped and used as a tool) to hit the ground and injure herself, so the obvious reason for him not moving lightspeed to intercept her was because

*Drum roll please*

He. Didn't.NEED TO.

Him not moving lightspeed in a situation where he can but doesn't need to is not an anti-feat... a simple fact that also debunks the gif you posted about the sword in his match with Augus, and now this instance of him dodging the machines while running past them. Specifically on the topic of the sword, that would only be an anti-feat if Asura failed to react to it. But HE STILL CAUGHT IT IN HIS MOUTH. He simply did that at the speed that would require doing it. What does it contradict?

One thing I've learned in the course of this discussion is that you don't know what anti-feats are. The absolute closest thing to it was you posting Vajra Wyzen (the big grey stone version) tagging Asura immediately after telling him that his former comrades kidnapped his daughter and were using her as a battery... bravo? This includes everything you've brought up.

  • Augus' Sword
  • Falling Moon rocks
  • The Carriers (this was dumb because Asura took it head on and clearly didn't bother dodging)
  • Yasha's...... mouth?? (I simply don't get how Yasha talking while fighting is an anti-feat lol)
  • Fodder robots

Let's not forget that you conceded the speed argument—which only makes the fact that you used a bullet timing feat when arguing that Asura can't blitz Hulk all the more egregious—so I legitimately don't know why you're going to such lengths to "debunk" Asura's speed.

I don't even care whether or not you personally think Asura is light speed or relativistic or even massively hypersonic at this point. The only thing needed to win this match is a sizeable speed advantage of any kind, and you said in your opener that Asura is "a good deal faster than Hulk".

So, Thedailybagel, YOU conceded that Asura is a good deal faster than Hulk, and Asura has the additional quality of being dozens of times stronger than a version which YOU conceded was above standard planet busting. It's a very simple equation...

2.3 - Punch Spam

I agreed with the notion that Asura trades power for speed when he spams punched when you first brought it up. His charged up heavy hitters deal more damage than the quick flurry of blows he's been shown releasing on occasion.

But it seems as if you completely ignored my counter to that, again.

Asura's charged punches or the most fatal, but Asura having a speed advantage means that he'll be able to dish multiple of them on Hulk before he can react.

It's as simple as that. Asura can fight for literal centuries on end without losing steam, and that's when he's TRADING blows with someone on par with him in strength who is TAGGING HIM and hurting him. Asura won't ever get punched by Hulk here if he doesn't wish too, so he won't be taking major damage that would wear him down.

Knowing that he's a mean spirited brawler at heart, he'll just keep slugging, punching, slugging, and punching; over and over again until Hulk finally dies. Hulk has no feats of surviving however many charged up planet+ vaporizing punches Asura can throw relentlessly within the span of hundreds of years.

3.0 - Physicals

You admit [again] to conceding that blowing up Wyzen is above standard planet busting, so the only problem I need to address are these two counterclaims of yours:

  1. It crippled Asura
  2. It's not as impressive as what Hulk did casually.

Rebuttal to claim 1: It crippled a version of Asura that is dozens of times weaker than the one I'm using. You have no proof whatsoever that releasing that amount of force will have any negative effect on Mantra Asura's body in this match.

Rebuttal to claim 2: The actual destruction of Wyzen's body actually requires greater energy than destroying a planet without touching, or at least I would assume so, when one realizes just how much more durable Wyzen is than stone, or any of the elements that make up Earth's composition. The hardest naturally occurring materials on Earth can not tank concentrated continent levels of force.

So pretty much imagine that Asura busted a planet, but this planet was made out of steel... (or any of the other harder materials science has found).

We both know that if anyone bothered calc'ing the feat that it'd be way above planet level. So I think it's safer for you to just subscribe to the sentiment that Mantra Asura and Hulk are, at the very least in the same weight class.

The next thing you say has been addressed. The multiplier being vague and Hulk's amazing regen and whatnot.

3.1 - Environmental Damage

Your counter to this is that those situations are only when characters aren't attacking the environment, and that Asura being slammed into things he didn't destroy demonstrate that he can be hurt by or is far less than planetary in out put.

Um.... did you forget that, in the first example I gave, Skaar punched Hulk and Hulk landed into a hill?

I think you did. This attack was supposedly continent level but all it did was crack the side of a hill.

3.2 Asura putting Hulk down

I think this is just a matter of you greatly overselling Hulk's durability.

Your rebuttals in this sections had a lot of "even ifs" which people use when they steelman their opponents argument.

The problem is, all the "even if" scenarios you brought up are guaranteed defeats for Hulk.

Hulk can no-sell above standard planet busting damage, and his regen can heal him from even some of the worst physical states. As you may have noticed, I have never once argued against Hulk's capabilities, partly because I don't have the knowledge needed to debunk them against you, and because I didn't need to. Why?

1.) Asura has also no-sold hits from his physical equal. And he won't get tagged by Hulk if he doesn't want to.

2.) If they can both no-sell each other's punches, it just becomes a matter of endurance and stamina and how long they can last while maintaining such a constant level of exertion. Asura wins in this department.

3.3 Everything Else

Silver Surfer doesn't use his speed in combat. Everyone and their mother have tagged him, and especially damning ones are Thor and Spider-Man...

Using Surfer as evidence that Hulk can tag Asura is worse than using an unquantifiable lasers.

A country sized landmass moving at reentry speed wouldn't cause planetary devastation? You're going to have to prove this.

The Finish Line: Case to the Voters

We've reached the end ladies and gentlemen. It's time to wrap up this awesome battle of words.

I didn't want to make this post too long, but I decided to counter some of the stuff he said. So this is basically a summary of the arguments and a restatement of my case.

My opponent did a great job here in all honesty, but I still resolutely believe that he misinterpreted my arguments and occasionally reached too many times. This doesn't detract from my opinion on his skill, however, but if you're going to vote on this CaV and are going to vote on who debated better and who made a more convincing argument, I ask that you please consider the following:

  • Thedailybagel conceded the speed argument against me, but went on to pursue it anyway, in order to diminish the advantage that speed gives Asura. That's not inherently wrong, but the laser argument was the crux of his stance on speed, and I demonstrated and clearly explained why it was flawed in this post.
  • Thedailybagel conceded that Asura's main strength feat was above standard planet busting, but used the fact that he lost his arms to disparage him being able to apply that strength in practical combat. This was a good counter, but he conveniently overlooked the fact that those drawbacks were only shown to apply to a version of Asura that was dozens of times physically inferior to Mantra Asura. TDB moved heaven and earth when posting supposed "anti-feats" for Asura, but he never oncebothered to post any showing or mention anything at all that would substantiate his implications that Mantra Asura throwing planet busting punches would physically harm Asura in anyway. For this reason, he lost this argument as well.
  • Thedailybagel made this debate focus almost exclusively on Asura, and posting a lot of instances that he felt debunked my placement of certain aspects of Asura. I countered almost all of them.
    • For speed, characters don't move at their fastest shown ever speed in every single scenario. (Counters machines)
    • Asura caught the sword in his mouth so it's not an anti-feat for speed. The sword flipped multiple times in the air, and cinematics slowed it down to emphasize that Asura bisecting Augus was the latter's defeat. It also wouldn't make sense for Asura to catch the sword in any other way he did, because if he had jumped up to grab it in his mouth, he would have lost the element of surprise due to him being clearly aerial.
    • When Asura fought Akuma in the core of the moon, moving rocks weren't stationary to them, but that's not an anti-feat unless you want to imply that Asura at full speed is slower than a falling rock, which is actually twice as inconsistent and has more things contradicting it than him being literally any faster than that.
    • Fictional characters talk mid battle all the time.
    • Asura wasn't too slow to dodge the Carriers, he intercepted one and got sandwhiched by a Lasher. I mean, you yourself posted an instance of him destroying a Carrier casually. He was not slower than it.
  • The punch spam argument was one of the things which I feel Bagel also misinterpreted. Asura doesn't spam a bunch of blows that each carry planet busting force to put Hulk down. Since Bagel clearly demonstrated Hulk no-sell continuous hits from a person who was his equal after they destroyed a planet indirectly, I just reaffirmed and restated that his makes this a matter of endurance. Of course, Asura being much faster than Hulk still means he'll get a far larger amount of hits in and at a shorter time frame than Red She Hulk... so he WILL overwhelm his durability based on feats (dozens of planet+ hits unloaded in seconds and minutes are above what you posted), so overcoming regen is just a matter of how long can Hulk take the onslaught?
  • As far as regen goes, Asura vaporized Wyzen, who's more durable than anything on Earth and larger than Earth. Mantra Asura will turn Hulk to goop with an ample amount of punches. Hulk doesn't have feats of regenerating from dust for 5 continuous centuries of a beatdown.

I think these are the core topics of the debate. Everything else wasn't as momentous. I hope that those of you who kept an open mind will see my stance.

That is all.

Godspeed TDB, and may the best man win!

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vsw

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I'm going to enjoy voting on this.

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#68  Edited By blackpantherisb
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Thedailybagel

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@higherpower: So is it open for votes?

No, I have one more summary post. Vulcan's post was supposed to be shorter but I covered allot of ground that he kinda needed to address, should be open later today after I post.

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Rosa_Melano

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T4V

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Cergic

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I also request a tag when vote is opening. This is good

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Thedailybagel

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@higherpower

In summary

Immortal, Indestructible, the strongest one there is...

No Caption Provided

This has been a very fun experience and I certainly feel that I underestimated you coming into this, no harm done on the agression side of things. I do understand that certain statements came across different to how they were intended. I'm going to try and keep this final post as concise as possible which you were actually supposed to do as well... my previous post covered pretty much every relevant facet of the debate and to be blunt... Vulcan hasn't really done anything to counter it other than repeat himself and attempt to move the goalposts. As in, you could quite literally read Vulcan's 'counter' then read my previous one after and it covers the exact same shit.

As much as Vulcan has said otherwise, I have done my research on Asura and as far as I'm concerned the reason for such lackluster counters is down to the fact that they've never been attempted before, and thus he's never really had to defend the integrity of his showings. I came to my own conclusion of Asura's power level and speed which is a stark contrast to the way Vulcan has sold him, and, unlike Vulcan... I undisputably have more actual feats to support my view of Asura than Vulcan does to support his.Saying that, I'll be offering some final explanations as to why Vulcan's 'counters' haven't changed anything and the result is still Hulk beating Asura's face in.

Impurity levels and your flaws in scaling

I don't mean to be rude, but you utterly ignored everything I said in favour of practically repeating yourself. I did not ignore Impurity levels, I flat out used them as the basis for my arguments here:

He was momentarily slowed because a carrier bumped into him and a lasher just happened to swallow him (Lasher's have an impurity level of 14,000 and were being killed by fodder machines)

And here:

except it was done by a Lasher which is nearly 20X weaker than what slowed down Asura.

Your argument was:

"Asura put it notable effort and actually needed Yasha's help just to escape being sandwiched by two of Vlitra's larger spawn..."

Which essentially means that he had to put effort in to beat the Gohma, which serves as a basis for his amp when he goes on to subdue Viltra... Without this your scaling is null and void. However I irrefutably proved that Asura was not struggling with them, he was able to oneshot Carriers. Wyzen - who was >weaker< than Asura by a large margin - could oneshot carriers. Then as the icing on the cake, I showed Augus - who at that point in time could also have three shotted Viltra - being pushed back by a lasher which was 20X weaker than the Carrier that pushed back Asura as per your own damn impurity levels. Which just shows that being pushed back by the Gohma has no relevance to how powerful you are compared to them, they were just caught off guard.

You did not sufficiently counter or cover any of this.

Thus...

Your scaling.

Is still.

Objectively.

Broken.

Direct comparisons between Mantra Asura and weaker forms.

The reason I keep emphasising that Mantra Asura has no feats is because your scaling is broken and we actually have comparisons to use instead of random multipliers. Your argument for Mantra Asura literally just amounts to "Hurr duurrr dozen times stronger there hurrrr, dozens there durrr". Where is the substance? The proof that doesn't include numbers that you are assuming, Where is the in universe evidence that gives us these numbers? Statements? Handbook entries? Feats? You have nothing and you have had nothing since the conception of this debate.

All you've done is restate my initial point for me and try to tear down my credibility on the second:

  • We know that Mantra Asura can power through an (energy) attack that pushed Six armed Asura back and broke his arms. However I showed those arms getting broken all the damn time as evidence for why it isn't impressive, Asura otherwise shrugged off the blast. All we can gain from this is that Six armed Mantra is a decent bit stronger, there is literally nothing else you can take away from that showing.
  • Your implication that I 'mislead' the audience with my showing is downright insulting. I didn't show Mantra Asura's transformation because it had nothing to do with my point and we had already established that Mantra Asura stalemated Oni, this is common sense. As per your own shaky argument, Six armed Vajra is dozens of times stronger and faster than Base Asura, and Mantra is at least dozens of times stronger than that... If those number were remotely accurate Base Asura would not have been able to react to and catch a charged punch from someone who (by your argument) should be hundreads of times stronger than himself. It simply isn't possible.

In fact, in your very first post your comparison between Mantra and Six armed Vajra was this statement (this is the attitude you've had throughout the debate):

but the kicker is that this version of Asura would get blitzed and one-shot by Mantra.

We know that this is factually and objectivelly nonsense. Oni couldn't even do that to Base Asura.Ultimately, I think you've completely failed in your attempt at proving that Mantra Asura is dozens of times stronger than weaker transformations and my previous, more detailed post covers that perfectly.

...Speed

Speed has been a large focal point of the debate because without it I'm fairly certain that Vulcan is aware that he can't do anything to win here, he simply has no other way of maybe hurting Hulk and testing his healing factor. Instead of repeating myself again, I'm going to focus more on what Vulcan has said throughout this debate in response to my questions on Asura's speed. Since my first post, all I've gotten from him is the same lasers from the same being, I've said time and time again that lasers are not good enough when so much evidence is present. In response to my arguments on speed Vulcan has:

  • Blamed 'Asian media content'
  • Blamed the animation
  • Brought in Asura's 'destructor' forms speed repeatedly to hurt my credibility which is explicitly not allowed here
  • Blamed the lack of speed on Asura fighting equals
  • Blamed my mindset
  • And now in his very last post that was supposed to be a summary, he has moved the goalposts again and blamed it on... I shit you not:
  • The 'fact' that Asura doesn't need to use his speed. Unless it involves lasers, obviously.

Has he provided

a single instance of high speed other than lasers?

No.

Combat?

No.

Travel?

No.

Does that not speak for itself? In fact, what has Vulcan outright ignored about my posts to try and gloss over them?

  • He's utterly ignored Hulk's own reactions. Even you think that Hulk is slow as a snail for whatever reason, Vulcan has left this entire point of contention unchallenged.
  • He's utterly ignored Hulk's better thunderclaps, he mentioned one then just ignored the rest and thus left an entire valid point to deal with speed unchallenged.
  • By far the most irritating thing is that I literally used Vulcan's own logic against him. I demonstrated Hulk reacting to Surfer crossing interplanetary distances instantly (which is practically the same as Viltra's lasers if not better) to demonstrate the flaw in Vulcan's argument... And, you guessed it, he ignored it and left it entirely unchallenged.
  • He hasn't countered a swarm of instances with objective comparisons to prove that Asura fights nowhere the speed that Vulcan claims. Instead he's just tried to dismiss them over and over again, in fact it might even be worth re-reading his posts to see how his excuses keep changing. He hardly maintains a consistent counter from one post to the next which just spells out that he's throwing everything at me but the kitchen sink in the hope that something he says makes sense

Yes, I did concede that Asura was faster because he can spam punches quickly (this was actually the only reason), but I reversed that by pointing out that those punches would probably cause more damage to Asura than they would to Hulk. Hulk wouldn't even feel them. Thus, for Asura to even have a hope in causing damage, he needs to slow himself down and land bigger more powerful punches. Which means he's screwed because I've displayed Hulk's reactions and his clear physical superiority. Asura's speed means nothing if using it means that Hulk won't take any damage, let alone the fact that I've shown Hulk reacting to people faster than Asura. Multiple times.

As for the punch spam, Vulcan has utterly failed to demonstrate that each of those punches would be planet busting in potency. Just because a weaker version could do it by almost killing himself in the process, doesn't then mean that a stronger version can replicate it with every hit. Even Oni pretty much directly punching the Moon only blew out a portion of it. At the end of the day, Asura simply doesn't hit hard enough. You can hit a tank with one bullet or a thousand, the result will be the same since in this scenario Hulk has on panel no sold better than what Asura has been shown to give out.

Essentially, you've brought a machine gun when you should have brought an RPG.

Physicals

You haven't even bothered contesting that Hulk could flat out rip Asura in two and have flat out ignored many feats because of your over reliance on Asura's speed. At the start of this debate you conceeded that what Hulk accomplished casually was better than Asura's best feat but now appear to be backtracking in a post that was supposed to be your summary. To briefly go over your points, starting with Asura destroying Wyzen...

Cut the 'dozens of times' weaker crap, Vulcan. That might work on weaker debaters but not me - I've used feats to display that the gap is nowhere near as big as you're implying and torn apart your scaling argument. He's stronger, sure, but in my previous post I also showed a weakened Hulk ripping out someone's spine that was beating him at full power. Characters can punch above their normal capabilities which is clearly what Asura did against Wyzen, it doesn't then mean that Mantra Asura can replicate that level of striking easily. But easier. I already made this point but once again, you ignored it. As for Wyzen... You should've just stuck with your original statement of Hulk's planet bust being better because now I have to demonstrate the gap even more...

  1. Wyzen wasn't actually as big as Earth, he was taller but Earth was wider and had more circumfrence
  2. Wyzen isn't as dense as Earth. In fact, there really isn't any evidence at all to suggest that his interior is anywhere near his exterior in durablity, so these two considerations automatically degrade the feat and it's not even clear whether it's as good as blowing apart a planet... On Hulk's side however:
  3. He didn't touch the planet, and it still blew up
  4. He cracked a distant moon due to the impact, which makes it well above even just busting a planet without touching it.
  5. The impact also incinerated Armageddon (who you ignored, for, literally the whole debate) and Amped Fing Fang Foom. Foom in that instance was more durable than Umar's barrier and Armagedon has shrugged off blasts from Silver Surfer in the past.

That should cover that. Your point on enviromental damage is just... Nonsensical. Hulk was the one hit with the force, not the planet. I'm just going to reiterate that Vulcan is genuinely and Unironically arguing that these attacks have planet busting potency:

Augus example

Asura example

Attacks that hit the planet, care is taken to show the impact and devastation caused, no planetary or even Moon level feats are present. But it's still planet busting, because Asura has that one feat where he basically paralyses himself to cause an attack that is planetary in scale.

Hulk's durability

Overselling Hulk's durability? You haven't brought Hulk's durability into question once. You've utterly failed to push that side of the debate other than repeating yourself about Asura spamming planet vaporising punches every microsecond.

I'm just going to repeat the facts and we'll see who's overselling what:

  • I showed several clear as day examples of Hulk objectively no selling better than the best feat Asura has. Without your broken scaling, you don't have a single showing on your side to prove that Asura can even provoke a reaction. But guess what Vulcan did? He basically ignored them in favour of his speed argument.
  • I gave you the benefit of the doubt and displayed that even if Asura could hurt Hulk (which you haven't shown he can do) Hulk can heal from missing half his head. He can heal from a skeleton, he can heal from his body literally being disected and torn apart instantly. But nope, ignored in favour of lightspeed planet busting punch spam.
  • Just because you mentioned Asura's own durability, I showed Hulk bending Toomie. Guess what? ignored.
  • I showed that his punches are beyond any type of damage that Asura has been hit by but Vulcan maintains that Asura can no sell them... Based on what? You have shown nothing to suggest that other than your broken scaling.

Silver Surfer's 'combat speed'

Silver Surfer doesn't use his speed in combat. Everyone and their mother have tagged him, and especially damning ones are Thor and Spider-Man...

Using Surfer as evidence that Hulk can tag Asura is worse than using an unquantifiable lasers.

This is going to be the harshest thing I've said in this debate and I'm only making this a seperate section to put more emphasis on it, but anyone with half a brain cell that actually bothered to look at the scans can see that I wasn't referring to Surfer's combat speed.

It.

Was.

>Travel<.

Speed.

I showed Hulk reacting to Norrin using >travel speed<, one example showed him moving so fast that planets were going by as a blur and in the other he was pratically invisible for Hulk to actually see. This is quite frustrating from my perspective because it doesn't really look like you've tried to assess and take in my points as opposed to just counter them for counters sake.

Final summary

Before I start, I'm going to go through your summary:

On your side of things

Thedailybagel conceded the speed argument against me, but went on to pursue it anyway, in order to diminish the advantage that speed gives Asura. That's not inherently wrong, but the laser argument was the crux of his stance on speed, and I demonstrated and clearly explained why it was flawed in this post.

Except, you've basically ignored me repeatedly regarding the laser arguments, you didn't even bother mentioning my example with Norrin. You haven't brought a single speed feat that doesn't involve those lasers. I've gone over the lasers enough at this point for the voters to make a decision.

Thedailybagel conceded that Asura's main strength feat was above standard planet busting, but used the fact that he lost his arms to disparage him being able to apply that strength in practical combat. This was a good counter, but he conveniently overlooked the fact that those drawbacks were only shown to apply to a version of Asura that was dozens of times physically inferior to Mantra Asura. TDB moved heaven and earth when posting supposed "anti-feats" for Asura, but he never oncebothered to post any showing or mention anything at all that would substantiate his implications that Mantra Asura throwing planet busting punches would physically harm Asura in anyway. For this reason, he lost this argument as well.

No Caption Provided

The fact that Vulcan has written an entire section appealing to voters and has tried to get them to vote for him by strawmanning me speaks volumes. I didn't say that planet busting punches would hurt Asura, I said that:

  1. Asura can't spam them
  2. Asura will have to hit much harder than that to hurt Hulk
  3. That to do that he'd have to put his all into every hit, which has been shown to effect Asura negatively. His arm shattered on Wyzen, his arm shattered on Augus's sword, and punching Viltra left him so weakened that a sub planetary explosion KOed Mantra Asura. Which. You. Ignored. Next.

For speed, characters don't move at their fastest shown ever speed in every single scenario. (Counters machines)

You haven't shown Asura move at the speeds you claimed he did other than lasers (which I countered, repeatedly, and you managed to ignore the most important part involving Norrin). Not once.

You have used every excuse in the book to get around that and these showings were merely demonstrating how fast Asura really moves. Like, what possible reason did Asura have to make him not move at full speed?

Asura caught the sword in his mouth so it's not an anti-feat for speed. The sword flipped multiple times in the air, and cinematics slowed it down to emphasize that Asura bisecting Augus was the latter's defeat. It also wouldn't make sense for Asura to catch the sword in any other way he did, because if he had jumped up to grab it in his mouth, he would have lost the element of surprise due to him being clearly aerial.

Except it is. Because Augus is as fast as Asura and he basically watched the sword spin repeatedly. If they could percieve things a thousandth of the speed you claim they do, the sword would not be moving from their perspective.

When Asura fought Akuma in the core of the moon, moving rocks weren't stationary to them, but that's not an anti-feat unless you want to imply that Asura at full speed is slower than a falling rock, which is actually twice as inconsistent and has more things contradicting it than him being literally any faster than that.

......

IT SHOWS ASURA FIGHTING AN EQUAL IN SPEED AND BEING SLOW ENOUGH THAT MOVING ROCKS CAN BE SEEN. IF THEY WERE FIGHTING ANYWHERE NEAR LIGHTSPEED THOSE ROCKS WOULD NOT BE MOVING.I already said this >but you ignored it<.

I also showed a comparison of Asura and Oni entering the moon and exiting 30 seconds later to show much time had gone on. Your previous excuse was "animation", I showed objective evidence that they weren't fighting that fast and your excuse was baloney, but you ignored it. Again.

Fictional characters talk mid battle all the time.

Sure, but how often do you see one guy actively start rushing another and the second guy has time to get words out?

Asura wasn't too slow to dodge the Carriers, he intercepted one and got sandwhiched by a Lasher. I mean, you yourself posted an instance of him destroying a Carrier casually. He was not slower than it.

Augus?

My side of things

As you've probably gathered at this point, I've tried to keep this post as short as possible and haven't really gone in depth with my arguments because I feel that this debate speaks for itself. Hulk's advantages remain cut and dry:

  • Overall damage soak - Asura does not have a single quantifiable feat that is on par with punches or energy blasts that Hulk has outright no sold. He is flat out more durable than anything Asura has dealt with before.
  • Healing factor - Hulk is already too durable to really be hurt by anything Asura has dished out, but he can heal through virtually anything. Punch his head off? Fine. Skeleton? Cool. Entire body dismantled, heart cut in half, spine removed and his organs disected? Give him three seconds. Asura is not getting past this level of healing.
  • Striking power - Asura has never been hit as hard as what Hulk can do and has actually been harmed by significantly less. This is self explanatory
  • Brutality and raw strength - Hulk will gladly rip Asura's eyes out, tear him in half, break his hands and crush bones without a second thought. The strength gap is so signifcant that if Hulk gets a grip on him then Asura is done for because he isn't breaking it and Hulk could quite literally manhandle him with one arm and has done so to people much stronger than Asura.

The exact same things I said in my last post hold true here. I think I've done a sufficient job on my side of things, but before I close I'm going to emphasise the things that Vulcan has flat out failed to address:

  • Hulk's reaction speed, he basically ignored this aspect of the debate.
  • Hulk's thunderclaps.
  • My example with Silver Surfer to demonstrate the flaw in Vulcan's logic with lasers.
  • The strength gap.
  • Utterly failing to produce any feats of note to prove that Hulk can be harmed
  • Failing to successfully bring one combat speed feat that doesn't involve lasers
  • Basically ignoring half of my core points
  • Completely misunderstanding my counter to his scaling
  • Failing to properly counter my examples of Asura's lack of speed

I've said this from the get go, but Vulcan's argument comes down to two things: Speed and powerscaling. If you think that Vulcan has succesfully defended Asura having relativistic combat speed, take this into account; I have factually shown more than half a dozen instances to support my side of the debate, Vulcan has used lasers. He hasn't mentioned Hulk's own reaction speed throughout the debate and has hardly touched upon Hulk's thunderclaps. He also utterly failed to address my example with Norrin to display why lasers are not a be all, end all part of the speed debate. Vulcan has used excuses after excuses to get past Asura's combat speed including multiple attempts to discredit me.

Moving on from that, If you think that Vulcan has defended his powerscaling argument, take these points into account; We have on screen evidence of Base Asura holding back and redirecting an attack from someone equal to Mantra Asura, as per Vulcan's argument the difference in every category would be hundreads of times at least. This would not be possible if the difference was that big. Moving on from that, Augus was slowed down by a lasher which are significantly weaker than carriers. This blows a hole in Vulcan's argument because it entirely revolves around Asura being slowed down by a Carrier and Lasher, but the same thing happened to someone that was even stronger than he was AFTER getting amped.

Aside from this, my last post covered pretty much every relevant point that needed to be covered. This was to serve as more of a closer and thus I've kept actual scans and gifs out of it...

This has been a hell of a debate Vulcan, so may the best man win *two thumbs up*

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WollfMyth209

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Will give this a thorough read-through then vote.

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defiant_will

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#74 defiant_will  Online

Oh boy, I can't wait to read this

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Atomickitten15

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I think i'm leaning Asura after all that. Big props to HigherPower for making such a good argument for a form that lacks many feats.

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Jacthripper

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That got... Violent...

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ArkhamAsylum3

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Damn.

RIP HigherPower.

Seriously though idk who I think debated better.

Let me give this a re-read.

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BaldManjunior

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#78  Edited By BaldManjunior

Looks like Hulk will eat Asuraios for breakfast.

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HigherPower

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#79  Edited By HigherPower

Sorry, just now seeing this. Voting is open. It will be open for the next 2 weeks (14 days), so most have ample time but don't procrastinate.

You guys know the drill, don't vote for the character, give a reasonable explanation that shows you actually read the debate etc. I hope everyone enjoyed this as much as me and TDB did :)

Edit: CV wouldn't let me edit the title of the thread. It said Access Denied. I don't know what that means so I'll see if a mod can help.

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termiteone4ever

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I haven't read a CAV in while but this was pretty good. I am not voting. Good Job HigherPower. You represent Asura well.

Bagel didn't do too bad with the composite hulk.

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Thedailybagel

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NiteLite

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Will definitely vote after reading through all this.

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Unlimited1

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#83  Edited By Unlimited1

@higherpower: @thedailybagel:

The argument

Speed

TDB won this part of the debate decisively. HP had one job and it was to prove Asura's speed is consistent and he simply failed at it. Both agreed that lasers aren't enough to prove Asura is massively faster, but HP didn't have much more to offer. His counters for TDB's examples against Asura's consistency were lackluster. Some of the arguments he presented weren't convincing at all, take this for example.

If a character dodges a railgun bullet that was shown to be hypersonic, would you discredit the feat for that character because other street levelers in different fictional universes have dodged bullets?

He clearly addressed the wrong argument here. The problem wasn't the speed of the lasers, it was that Asura didn't move in the speed required to dodge them consistently which is also the case for many other characters. HP's biggest mistake in this section was shown here:

Him not moving lightspeed in a situation where he can but doesn't need to is not an anti-feat... a simple fact that also debunks the gif you posted about the sword in his match with Augus, and now this instance of him dodging the machines while running past them. Specifically on the topic of the sword, that would only be an anti-feat if Asura failed to react to it. But HE STILL CAUGHT IT IN HIS MOUTH. He simply did that at the speed that would require doing it. What does it contradict?

One thing I've learned in the course of this discussion is that you don't know what anti-feats are. The absolute closest thing to it was you posting Vajra Wyzen (the big grey stone version) tagging Asura immediately after telling him that his former comrades kidnapped his daughter and were using her as a battery... bravo? This includes everything you've brought up.

  • Augus' Sword
  • Falling Moon rocks
  • The Carriers (this was dumb because Asura took it head on and clearly didn't bother dodging)
  • Yasha's...... mouth?? (I simply don't get how Yasha talking while fighting is an anti-feat lol)
  • Fodder robots

It is an anti feat when you are trying to prove Asura will blitz hulk. The first two examples are especially damning because it would have been better for Asura if he acted faster but all of them prove that Asura doesn't operate on this level of speed consistently, just like the Hulk. Contrary to what HP believes, fast characters move at speeds comparable to their best in combat situations unless they have a very good reason not to.

Strength

The issue here was scaling the very impressive feat Asura preformed against Wyzen to his current form. The feat in question was misrepresented in my opinion, as Asura melted Wyzen who then died in an explosion, not vaporized him. Another problem with how it was represented is that durability in Asura's wrath is based on Mantra level, not what the character's skin is made of so using Wyzens skin toughness here is wrong.

In the scaling department, TDB won the argument using the fight against Oni which was very hard to counter. HP should have just said it isn't canon. Another very strong counter-argument was the one about environmental destruction, which HP didn't really have an answer to.

Durability

This is probably what won TDB the debate, Hulk's regen is simply broken and his raw strength was enough to tear Asura apart. TDB explained it well.

Hulk's advantages remain cut and dry:

  • Overall damage soak - Asura does not have a single quantifiable feat that is on par with punches or energy blasts that Hulk has outright no sold. He is flat out more durable than anything Asura has dealt with before.
  • Healing factor - Hulk is already too durable to really be hurt by anything Asura has dished out, but he can heal through virtually anything. Punch his head off? Fine. Skeleton? Cool. Entire body dismantled, heart cut in half, spine removed and his organs dissected? Give him three seconds. Asura is not getting past this level of healing.
  • Striking power - Asura has never been hit as hard as what Hulk can do and has actually been harmed by significantly less. This is self-explanatory
  • Brutality and raw strength - Hulk will gladly rip Asura's eyes out, tear him in half, break his hands and crush bones without a second thought. The strength gap is so significant that if Hulk gets a grip on him then Asura is done for because he isn't breaking it and Hulk could quite literally manhandle him with one arm and has done so to people much stronger than Asura.

Summary

TDB won the debate for 3 reasons

  • He proved Hulk can keep up with Asura by pointing out Asura's inconsistent speed.
  • He countered HP attempts to scale Asura and posted good anti feats (environmental destruction)
  • He showed Hulk can harm Asura using WB's striking feats and that Asura can't hurt him using WB's durability and immortal's regen.

This was a good debate, well done to both debaters, you both did an amazing job.

TDB, do you want to do a Hulk vs Jane Foster CAV sometimes?

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Thedailybagel

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Bump for votes.

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Sy8000

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I'll vote on this soon.

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vsw

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#86  Edited By vsw

I need to vote on the high tier pyp first, then I'll make my way here.

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emperorthanos-

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#87 emperorthanos-  Moderator

I'll share my thoughts after voting is closed.

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#88  Edited By Maalik

@higherpower@thedailybagel

First of all, I'd like to preface this by stating that this was a fantastic debate. Both participants while I don't necessarily believe came with their best performances yet, really amazed me and kept my attention throughout the entire read. I am more than impressed by both of them, and their ability to sway my opinion throughout the debate for either side speaks volumes of their ability. However, with that in mind, I have several things I feel obligated to point out concerning both debaters. As of me writing this, it is very late/early in the morning and I pulled an all-nighter reading this debate and making this.

Higherpower

Great job coming off as cool and respectable throughout most of the debate. I have to say if nothing else you are amazing at persuasion and coming across as level headed and cordial as possible despite the situation at hand. I also was impressed when you pointed out when Bagel used the argument from incredulity fallacy. However, it wouldn't be an understatement to say you were undoubtedly the underdog so to speak, throughout the debate, something you noted yourself at one point. Overall you let TDB control the pace of the debate more than you should have towards the start of the debate, only becoming more forceful with your points and keeping up with him when you became aware of this fact. To that end, you did do a great job of bouncing back with your third post, utilizing those persuasive techniques to, in my and im sure the eyes of others at the time, shift the opinion in your favor. Acknowledging at times when you were wrong as-well as for the most part showing an understanding of your opponents positions, as-well as keeping an internal logical consistency, great stuff.

But, with the actual debate in mind I have to point out a few things.

First of all, at the very start of your post you did something that was in my eyes, completely damning to your entire position. This is concerning what eventually became the focal point of this debate- the "lasers." Now my problem is not that they were the primary, and well only speed feat that you used. I also personally agree with the point that there weren't many if any, anti-feats that would suggest that he's much slower consistently. However, what was outright damning to me is how fast you tried to portray them and im surprised that Bagel didn't point this out given the fact that he's done research on asura.

Your argument went as follows

  • karma fortress is bigger than earth, appears small due to distance from earth

Yep

  • You can probably fit at-least 10 earths in the space between them

Can't say for certain but i'm still following.

  • The starfleet was at the same general area the fortress was

No

  • The lasers wiped out the fleet very fast

Yes, but since your other point isn't true, anything BASED upon that also is flawed.

Brother, I love you but the fleet itself was much, much closer to earth than you presented within your argument. In-fact, if Bagel had watched the video in which you made the gif from, he'd have seen that as-well.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The starfleet was going towards and attacking the vlitra spawn throughout the fight. The fleet was quite literally headed to earth to fight. They were objectively not as far as they were portrayed to be, in-fact, it appears from the second image that they had gotten rather close by the time of their destruction. Therefor your calculation immediately falls apart since it hinged on them being closer to the fortress than they were. This is not good because a lot of your argument vs hulk depends on Asura being that fast.

However, the ships were obviously still far away and the lasers still did destroy them rather quickly, so Asura being able to weave and react to them with his body and fists does substantiate some degree of high speed on his part. How much exactly though is vague with the evidence at hand, at the very least however it should be massively hyper-sonic.

Secondly, I found it a bit odd that you said the flurry of punches Asura delivered to Wyzen caused no visible damage to him despite the fact that the area he was attacking turned visible much redder (compared to around him where the finger was mostly black still) to signify asura was certainly effecting him to an extent.

No Caption Provided

I think that Bagel could have also pressed this matter a bit more.

Personally, it would have sounded better to say that Asura was capable of damaging and destroying a being larger than earth with a flurry of punches + one full power punch rather than those punches simply served to allow Asura to one shot him with a charged punch. Why? Because your arguments essentially detail that asura will be speed blitzing hulk with a flurry of punches like this, and yet this makes it seem like those punches will do nothing because as you know, hulk has durability arguably greater than Wyzen. If i were you, I would definitely have not given up that point so easily, which I believe TDB wanted you to do.

Later you do make it clear you believe that Asura is fast enough to simply use a bunch of charged attacks to destroy hulk, not necessarily the, what was admitted to be useless flurry. However, given what is in my eyes already dubious combat speed and hulks ridiculous regeneration, you can understand why I and perhaps others might question that as as a viable winning tactic.

Then there were things I outright didn't expect from you, like for example not immediately conceding that the feat you used him pounding vlitra involved momentum from his descent as TDB pointed out. That should not have been a point of contention at all in your second post.

There was also the misstep of the whole solar flare ordeal within your second post, and in that vein I would have immediately tried to shut down TDB the moment he brought up hulk's own speed feats regarding the cowboys since he directly compared him and Asura. Beyond that I took issue with the misinterpretation of TDB's inclusion of hulk tagging silver surfer, which your opponent pointed out. As-well as the unlikeliness wyzen put planet level force into the finger press, because just given his position it would have been impossible to include his entire body-mass into it.

also

"surfer doesn't use his speed in combat" REALLY?

this is tangential to the critique, and it wasn't even what he was arguing but wow i got triggered reading that. I won't press the issue so far right now since i plan on making a larger post debunking the notion but ooooh my god my jimmies were rustled brother!

Overall solid performance, though you were on the defensive for most of the debate you DID apply pressure at times and your reasoning was generally sound. The point that super fast characters do not always need to go their top speed was a good one if not a little late as-well. Good job.

TheDailyBagel

Well for one you were clearly the aggressor here. You knew exactly where to attack and what issues to bring up. You controlled the pace of the debate and you certainly applied pressure throughout every round which kept me on the edge of my seat. I wondered, "well shit, how is vulcan going to reply to this?" You were able to point out inconsistencies in your opponents argument as-well as most things that were incorrect, particularly the strawman area. Your arguments and counters in general were strong and convincing in regards to hulk and why he would win against Asura with what you were presented.

However, my friend, there were some things that were just straight up mind-boggling to see you argue. In general you were extremely questioning and skeptical, not only that but you attempted to not wait for your opponent to tell you but go out and find the answers yourself. That is usually fine and in general something everyone should do vs a character they're unfamiliar with.

But your degree of skepticism and overall approach appeared to be at several times throughout the debate, outright lowballing.

You essentially brushed off Asura's speed (though you naturally conceded the advantage to him anyway) for two prime reasons

  • During multiple fights, namely the one with Yasha, he didn't appear to be moving that fast at all
  • It was based upon 2 showings regarding lasers

Now, I would expect you to primarily attack the second reason, and you did, I have no issue with that, such is the nature of debate. But, it was disappointing to see that you were willing to die on the hill regarding the first point, even after your opponent explained it very well. You seemed to simply shrug it all off as "Asian media content" which you referred to his explanation as several times, because by your own admission you wanted something other than the feats involving the lasers.

I really did not expect that from you as a seasoned debater here on CV. Never would have I expected the fact that in regards to fictional hand to hand fights, time relative to the viewers is often slowed down for cinematic effect, would be contested.

A prime example is the dragon-ball series which I believe you're familiar with; in chapter 215 during yamcha's fight with the saibaman, gohan can't see the fight because they're moving so fast, but we the viewers (you and i) can. This goes the same for other highspeed characters in combat where we can clearly see them talking or count the number of punches exchanged for example.

You had reasons for your dismissal, including Asura's fights and their relative surroundings. It seems slightly trending along the lines of reductio ad absurdum at times especially in your first posts, but you also provide some reasoning for this which can be generally explained by the above. But two things, these might be a little nitpicky

"the Carrier which tagged Asura, " lashers that tagged Augus,"

Asura and Augus were specifically rushing towards vlitra which had just appeared. Augus's path is blocked by one of the monsters and Asura specifically heads towards one, and a lasher comes behind him. They aren't necessarily "tagged" in the sense you're trying to use. I think you may be aware of this but this was a point in your argument.

However, your point about Akuma vs Asura fight in regards to the moving rocks being visible is something I may find myself in agreement with. On one end, cinematic time in fights like this are heavily abused for dramatic effect often to the point where it may be inconsistent with how fast the characters should logically be, but I also don't believe that Asura was proven to be lightspeed either.

But that brings me to another issue.

Your insistence upon using the lack of environmental destruction as a way to take away from the damage output of asura or whomever he was fighting. That was very,, odd to see argued to be honest especially when you didn't need to even go there. You said yourself

Normally I do agree with the sentiment that enviromental damage doesn't detract from an attack's potency, but that's only when you aren't actually attacking the enviroment.

At no point does any character that is brought up actually attack the environment itself to my knowledge (i could be wrong, im pretty sure im not though.) They are, like you said, slammed into it, which I'm not sure why would be related to them actively attacking the environment. The visual impact of a blow =/= how strong it actually was. You make this argument several times whereas a character is slammed into something and the resulting impact is decidedly lackluster, but this ignores the fact that most of the power from the blow is absorbed by the body taking the attacking itself.

That said, I don't necessarily agree that attacks like for example, Asura being skewered into earth, are planet level in terms of power.

That said, I should bring up the fact that you mentioned that Asura's arms were destroyed upon re-entry, as-well as when hitting Augus' sword- but I feel its only right to mention that asura's arms had previously been weakened (and one pair broke) during the previous fight with augus on the moon. I'm not sure if you were trying to paint the situation that way so I won't assume, but for anyone who may have thought that, every instance in the Augus fight episode where asura's arms broke after being pushed off the moon, keep in mind they were weakened from the fight beforehand.

Despite that and some other miscellaneous things I'm probably forgetting due to exhaustion, you did convince me that this iteration of hulk would take a majority, and you were especially convincing at times for example, when showing areas that HP may have neglected to respond to.

My vote

All in this this was an incredible debate. Its not often I get so invested in a comicvine debate nowadays lately, and certainly not to the extent I expand upon my reasoning this far. Overall though, TDB convinced me that Hulk would win. This is due to hulks incredible healing factor, the dubious nature of asura's speed, and hulks history and examples of dealing with speed. Both parties did great and I have immense respect for both of you. Great job you guys : ).

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Thedailybagel

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@maalik: @unlimited1: Thank you both for voting, specially maalik for the nice critique, although there are one or two things that I may disagree with on my side of things but aren’t major at all. Thanks for the breakdown.

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@higherpower: @thedailybagel:This was a rather difficult one requiring arguments with long lines of reasoning.

Regarding the speed debate, the laser showing is pretty clear-cut as a combat speed feat. Reflexes and movement like that would translate directly to combat and we have seen him use it when matching comparable opponents. The only debate would be if Asura uses that speed to dominate slower opponents. Which can't be cleanly proven since he's never really been in that position. However as Bagel pointed out there are showings that point towards Asura's actual level of speed being below the argued level. So speed is left in a bit of a limbo where neither argument can be proven clearly.

Regarding strength I didn't really see the line of reasoning for the Mantra Asura scaling. That said there was also a lot of scaling used to justify some of Hulk's feats in the dark dimension that was hard to follow. I didn't agree with the argument that Hulk and Betty clashing cracked a moon because it's really not clear at all if those "cracks" weren't just regular formations on the surface and that particular bit of the feat was way too unclear. But I was convinced Hulk's strength feats are on a higher scale than Asura's and without Mantra being a clear enough boost I see no way around that. Added to the healing I would need to be convinced speed was a massive game-changer to give Asura the edge.

So I have to give my vote to @thedailybagel. With Asura's speed left in an unprovable limbo I can't reason anything that would give Asura a way around Hulk's clear advantages in strength and healing.

It was a neat and cool debate from both sides though.

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20damon

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I found Highwerpower's first post to be his best one, personally. It set the bar pretty high and by the way he teased it (for me, knowing nothing about Asura), this was only a taste of things to come. I was having problems seeing how TDB would give Hulk a shot if this was just a taste of things to come. However, turns out those were most of the feats presented and TDB had a counter and then a counterattack for just about all of them that i felt HP failed to address, instead i felt he dug his heels in and stubbornly kept repeating most of those same things over and over.

As someone who knows nothing about Asura, i did not get to see things that made me believe he could beat Hulk. The speed one being critical and unfortunately, even if i was convinced Asura was so overwhlemingly fast that Hulk couldn't touch him (which i wasn't), TDB made an excellent counter that when he does fight at his fastest he really does seem to sacrificed power for speed, making the speed gap irrelevant even if it was as big as HP claimed.

TDB won the strength and durability argument as well as striking power very solidly, especially since i don't know much about his opponent and i don't feel HP did anything to really convince me of Asura's superiority. That and then you add in the healing factor arguments, which was countered at one point by showing Asura's 500 year fight, but then that was used against him.

TDB showed he's probably the best Hulk debater today and in really enjoyed the debate, but i feel HP peaked in high (admittedly VERY good) opener and never got off the defensive after that, so my vote goes to Bagel.

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reaverlation

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I particularly enjoyed this debate while it served as how the rest of these All Star Debates will showcases the debating prowess of some of the top debaters CV has spawned. This debate of the titans, whether between Bagel and Vulcan or Hulk and Asura, was an amazing showdown. Lots of great points were displayed that really showed what veterans and newcomers alike of these characters can learn from. It was almost impossible for me to pick who won but ultimately I decided to go with Vulcan. Bagel clearly showed why he is a top debater and clearly hit it home with representing Hulk, something that's right in his ballpark but what swayed me to Vulcan was I felt disappointed on how the speed argument was a letdown in its arguments towards Vulcan and didn't really see anything that told me Hulk wouldn't be blitzed by a character who I saw as much, much faster. In the end, may the best debater prevail!

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pipxeroth

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I think this was quite a solid win for @thedailybagel.

Fortunately I can keep my vote much shorter than I originally planned, because I think TDB actually covered many of the reasons why I'm voting for him in his final post's conclusion very nicely, as did Maalik in his own vote. The main reason I feel like @higherpower lost this debate is because he was on the backfoot the entire time - he virtually never bothered actually attempting to think of counters to many of TDB's arguments and instead spent the entire debate solely trying to defend his speed argument. You cannot expect to win a debate if you are on the defence 99% of the time and don't attack any of your opponent's arguments, while they have free reign to pick apart each and every one of your points at their leisure. With that said, the few attempts made to counter things that TDB said seemed to be really weak attempts to just appear as if he was actually countering anything relevant, when he instead just misunderstood TDB's points and made really dumb claims, such as his response to TDBs Surfer scan where he said that Surfer doesn't use his combat speed as if that had any relevance to the scan in question (it didn't), or his response to the Vision scan where he started talking about solar flares (which were never brought up) and also said that solar energy isn't lightspeed (it is).

Now speed was obviously the main point of contention here, and for the most part I think TDB's counters to it were sound. While I don't consider the argument that "other characters dodge lasers all the time therefore avoiding a laser is not a good feat" a good one, he presented plenty of other counters to Vulcan's arguments for Asura'a speed, most importantly showing that Asura consistently fights below that speed, which amusingly Vulcan first tried arguing against before eventually shifting the goalposts entirely in his last post to "Asura just didn't need to use all his speed here". Extra points for irony given the first thing he responded to TDB's example of Hulk dodging a beam from Vision is that "even if it was lightspeed it wouldn't matter because Hulk doesn't dodge LS attacks consistently". Vulcan also completely ignored major points like thunderclaps which absolutely needed to be responded to to have any hopes of winning an argument when your entire strategy hinges on having speed superior enough to overcome the strength and durability disadvantages. If Vulcan had presented proper counterarguments to these things and was able to defend Asura's speed better, maybe he could have pulled a win here despite his lack of offence, but really TDB won this part of the debate pretty significantly in my opinion.

Only other thing I really have to say is that I felt like Vulcan's posts became increasingly worse over the duration of the debate while TDB's just kept getting better and better. Whether he just got tired of the debate or started to panic after digging himself further and further into holes I can't say, but the difference in their final posts is pretty significant. The other voters (Maalik especially) have covered everything else important I can think of. So nice debate overall, but Vulcan chose Asura's speed to be his hill to die on, and Bagel killed him.

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HitTheAssasin

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#94  Edited By HitTheAssasin

I think @thedailybagel won as well though, even if I thought @higherpower's side of the speed argument was more convincing, so I'd give him my vote. The argument that the Asura's feat isn't legit because it involves a laser was dumb, since most lasers in fiction don't have any objective feats on the level of the one Ashura avoided. The rest was pretty good from Bagel's side though, especially since he did force Vulcan to move the goalposts in regards to speed, and his sections in regards to Hulk's own reaction, which Vulcan ignored, and Hulk's blatantly superior strength and durability was better. Vulcan also tried to shift the burden of proof one or two times, which is bad. TDB also pushed the offense and controlled the narrative better, and overall I think his advantages in all the other section outweighed Vulcan's better speed argument, so I'd give him my vote. Maalik and Pip mentioned the rest, so I don't feel the need to go into detail any further. Pretty good CaV, even if Vulcan wasn't performing at his best, it was a nice read, and I had a great amount of trouble deciding who to vote for, it was quite close.

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Thedailybagel

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Streak619

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I will be voting soon.

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Streak619

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Aight, let's get this over with. My vote goes to Vulcan. He convinced of three things;

  1. Asura fodderises Hulk in speed, and Hulk is never so much as touching him.
  2. Asura is strong enough, such that with the spamming of strikes as well as tha nonsensical stamina, he can and will overwhelm Hulk's durability and regen
  3. Asura is durable to tank Hulk's thunderclaps, since I was convinced of the first point

The speed debate

Oh man... I have so much to say it's almost enough to discourage me from voting....

Almost

Vulcan absolutely dominated this debate. Across the debate he provided multiple sub relativistic laser feats demonstrating consistency and brought up Destructor Asura(?) and his MFTL feat for consistency. The only fault I could find here was the fact that he went from LS to relativistic to sub rel, Vulcan shifting your argument from LS - sub rel is indicative of how (not) prepared you were. The fact that you gradually jumped down entire tiers in speed really dents your credibility and perusasiveness. From what I can tell it probably contributed a good amount to the disparity in the vote score. I think it wouldn't have been so big had you started with sub rel from the very start.

Anyways, onto the actual point. Vulcan's arguments convinced simply because of

  1. How solid the feats themselves were
  2. How absolutely no valid counter was provided.

Now I'm sure everyone, including TDB, would agree that the feats itself was incredibly clear cut and explicit and objective, in the context that there were no assumptions, no appeals to probability, no subjective scaling. It's everthing you want speed feats to be. Even TDB himself attacked a very fundamental asoect of the feat. The feat was otherwise clear cut.

Now I'm sure the second point caught your eye, as it better have had TDB. Your counters can be summed up in 2 general points

  1. Unreliability of laser speed feats.
  2. Anti-feats concieved from estimated timeframes of actions/fights based on events occuring at or around the fighters in the background

The first point absolutely ruined the fun of the debate for me greatly. Because of how falaciously misinformed you were regarding this topic. You said, in your opener;

No Caption Provided

What you're basically saying is, syllogistically;

  • Observation #1: Hulk has dodged lasers
  • Observation #2: Hulk is not light speed.
  • Observation #3: Asura has dodged lasers
  • Inference: Asura is not light speed

"Come on man, Hulk has dodged lasers but is he LS? No, so Asura's laser feats don't make him LS either!"

This is the literal definition of an association fallacy. It is akin to saying:

  1. Observation #1: Hitler was a man
  2. Observation #2: Hitler was evil
  3. Observation #3: Mr X is a man
  4. Inference: Mr X is evil.

Switch out men for dodging lasers, evil for light speed, Hitler for Hulk and Mr X for Asura and we have your argument. Equally ridiculous, objectively.

The reason Hulk dodging lasers and still not being LS isn't primarily because lasers are unreliable, it's because Hulk is not consistently that fast, by any stretch of the imagination as you literally conceded. That doesn't mean Asura's laser feats are unreliable suddenly either. And Vulcan rightfully brought this up as well;

No Caption Provided

End of that conversation. Further part of the whole "Lasers are shite" argument, you say;

My problem with you using lasers as your argument is that the entertainment medium has everyone dodge lasers all the time

From this statement, I can tell that you don't read/debate;

  • manga
  • manhwa/manua
  • Any Asian fictional action based content, really.

Because it is objectively wrong to say what you did about most of the characters in these media. Lasers aren't big in eastern content unless it is mecha or something. That is a fact, take it from someone who (very very much like your opponent) has the credibility to flat out deny this nonsense because actual experience with these media. Vulcan, who is arguably the most credible and meritorious user in the entire site, in this regard is infinitely more credible than you, who has no right to make such statments when your prime experiemce lies within one sphere of media.

News flash; not everything works like Marvel/DC. Different medias are fundamentally differemt because diversity in culture is a thing. Laser feats are not as common, nor irrelevant, nor with such a terrible track record of consistency compared to Marvel and DC, in eastern media.

And oh man, don't even get me started on the nonsensical amount of appeals to incredulity fakkacies riddled all over your post TDB;

No Caption Provided

There's absolutely no excuse for such blatant attempts to appeal to incredulity and absurdity, it's unbecoming of someone who was voted into the HoF and the top ten of the site.

Furthermore your so called anti-feats also tie in to this as well. Things like talking, gravity, background events that happen in real time (like breeze blowing and trees swaying or shit like that) are also tropes that easter on a majority use to increase the appeal of scenes, it's a quirk that almost all of them (I've yet to come across a single Asian scriptwriter/mangaka who doesn't use them) use. It's something that absolutely infests all Asian action media, partly because Asian writers are more lax about how physically and scientifically consistent a scene is or they simply don't, or both. Similar to how the concept of characters not using their soeed in combat is a quirk/conceot that is almost exclusive to Marvel and DC. Different media need different systems of evaluation.

Phew, that took a toll on me.

The rest of the essentials

With speed and stamina, the criteria of strength is set lower than Hulk's against Asura. So even if TDB proved Hulk was more reliably stronger than Asura(which he did to a good degree), he did in the end not only agree that Mantra Asura was much stronger than Vajra Asura but also accepted that Vajra Asura's feat was well above baseline planet busting. I was convinced more by Vulcan's reasoning behind the context of the feat and the whole boost meter thing (or whatever tf it was) and it made more sense than TDB's counters. While TDB did convince me more on the whole carrier shit, I feel it was primarily due to Vulcan not getting the last say, but even then I don't think it takes away too much from the overwhelming speed and stamina difference.

I was also more convinced by the end that Mantra Asura pummeling away for at sub rel speeds with above baseline planet busting strength for 5 centuries with Hulk almost never getting a hit in, if at all due to constantly being bordaded by someone massively faster than himself, would grant Mantra Asura the eventual victory.

Generally enjoyable match, you both did good in some and not good at all in other ways, just my 2 cents. But I think you both maintained sportsmanship by the end, and that's most important. gg guys

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#99  Edited By HigherPower

Many thanks to all who have voted so far. I will likely be closing this earlier than I initially anticipated due to the current trend. However I don't want to close this before those who specifically asked to be tagged for voting (and those who expressed interest) had a chance to vote. So here is your bump.

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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I think this was quite a solid win for @thedailybagel.

Fortunately I can keep my vote much shorter than I originally planned, because I think TDB actually covered many of the reasons why I'm voting for him in his final post's conclusion very nicely, as did Maalik in his own vote. The main reason I feel like @higherpower lost this debate is because he was on the backfoot the entire time - he virtually never bothered actually attempting to think of counters to many of TDB's arguments and instead spent the entire debate solely trying to defend his speed argument. You cannot expect to win a debate if you are on the defence 99% of the time and don't attack any of your opponent's arguments, while they have free reign to pick apart each and every one of your points at their leisure. With that said, the few attempts made to counter things that TDB said seemed to be really weak attempts to just appear as if he was actually countering anything relevant, when he instead just misunderstood TDB's points and made really dumb claims, such as his response to TDBs Surfer scan where he said that Surfer doesn't use his combat speed as if that had any relevance to the scan in question (it didn't), or his response to the Vision scan where he started talking about solar flares (which were never brought up) and also said that solar energy isn't lightspeed (it is).

Now speed was obviously the main point of contention here, and for the most part I think TDB's counters to it were sound. While I don't consider the argument that "other characters dodge lasers all the time therefore avoiding a laser is not a good feat" a good one, he presented plenty of other counters to Vulcan's arguments for Asura'a speed, most importantly showing that Asura consistently fights below that speed, which amusingly Vulcan first tried arguing against before eventually shifting the goalposts entirely in his last post to "Asura just didn't need to use all his speed here". Extra points for irony given the first thing he responded to TDB's example of Hulk dodging a beam from Vision is that "even if it was lightspeed it wouldn't matter because Hulk doesn't dodge LS attacks consistently". Vulcan also completely ignored major points like thunderclaps which absolutely needed to be responded to to have any hopes of winning an argument when your entire strategy hinges on having speed superior enough to overcome the strength and durability disadvantages. If Vulcan had presented proper counterarguments to these things and was able to defend Asura's speed better, maybe he could have pulled a win here despite his lack of offence, but really TDB won this part of the debate pretty significantly in my opinion.

Only other thing I really have to say is that I felt like Vulcan's posts became increasingly worse over the duration of the debate while TDB's just kept getting better and better. Whether he just got tired of the debate or started to panic after digging himself further and further into holes I can't say, but the difference in their final posts is pretty significant. The other voters (Maalik especially) have covered everything else important I can think of. So nice debate overall, but Vulcan chose Asura's speed to be his hill to die on, and Bagel killed him.

Exactly my thoughts. Well-said, Pip.

Awesome CAV.