All-Star CaV | Thedailybagel (Hulk) vs HigherPower (Asura) - Closed. Victor: HigherPower

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HigherPower

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#1  Edited By HigherPower

This is a little deviation from both a regular CaV and a tourney match so I'll give some background to the unaccustomed. After a 3 stage voting process, 10 users were selected to become All Stars. 2 of those 10 were team Captains and they each chose 4 people to be on their team. The All Star debate will consist of 5 separate 1v1 CaV matches, and whatever team takes home 3/5 will be crowned the victor.

Without further ado.

No Caption Provided

Restrictions

  • Both Striking and Lifting strength should be planet level.
  • Combat and Reaction speed should be FTL. So being able to react and fight within nanoseconds.
  • Durability should also be planet level.
  • Ranged attacks or any other DC based attacks should be Planet Busting. It can be casual but no more.
  • Telekinesis follows the lifting strength limit
  • Telepathy can planet level in range and scope.
  • Clones are limited to 5
  • Summons are limited to a 100 and no more powerful than New 52 Aquaman

Banned stuff

  • Reality Warping.
  • Time Manipulation.
  • Probability Manipulation
  • Power Copying/stealing.
  • Speed Steal
  • Other hax will also be dealt on case by case basis. But any crazy one shot abilities won't be allowed.

Battle info

  • Composite unamped Hulk (mainstream)
  • Mantra Asura
  • In-character but determined to win
  • Combatants at their strongest
  • Fight to KO/incap/death
  • No prep, random encounter
  • Standard gear and abilities
  • Start 100m apart
  • Planet is indestructible

Location

No Caption Provided

Voters:

  • Please refrain from posting your opinion on the match until it's done.
  • Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
  • Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better arguments.
  • When giving your vote, give an explanation on why you think the person won
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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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TAEP and T4V

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WollfMyth209

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#4 WollfMyth209  Online
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FaradaySloth

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shirso

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vsw

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Kevd4wg

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ANTHP2000

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So many comicbook CaVs. Am I on a different website?

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Hope_w

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HigherPower

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#11  Edited By HigherPower

@hope_w: I think he is mostly doing an amalgamation of mainstream comic Hulk.

No Caption Provided

I guess it would include that but I doubt he'll be using animated feats.

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ArkhamAsylum3

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Pipxeroth

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#13 Pipxeroth  Online

Nice I can't wait to see my two favourite star level characters go head to head

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Thedailybagel

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#14  Edited By Thedailybagel

@hope_w: No animated Hulk, im just using Comic feats. It’ll mostly be built around Green Scar but with all other feats being accessible.

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HitTheAssasin

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#15 HitTheAssasin  Online

T4V.

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Thedailybagel

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@higherpower: also you wanna go first? I’m not amazingly knowledgable on Asura.

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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@pipxeroth said:

Nice I can't wait to see my two favourite star level characters go head to head

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Toratorn

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deactivated-5d07416730d08

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Nice I can't wait to see my two favourite star level characters go head to head

Hulk is star level now? Bruh.

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HigherPower

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@thedailybagel: As long as you don't drop a two part post on me :P

I'll also be raising the strength/durability limits of out match to casual planet busting (instead of planet level) to accommodate our characters, if that's fine with you.

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InvadedTBD

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TheWatcherKing

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Atomickitten15

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Thedailybagel

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@higherpower: ahah I’m going to try and be as concise as I can in this debate :p

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HigherPower

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#25  Edited By HigherPower

Asura | The God of Wrath

No Caption Provided

Preamble

I was thinking about this match earlier, and I began to appreciate the aesthetic of it. Both Asura and Hulk are more or less bricks who rise in strength with their anger. They are also known for the savagery and their ability to take immense amounts of punishment and continue fighting without a hitch.

This debate should be pretty straight forward, since it's a random encounter between two characters without any exotic hax to worry about. Asura and Hulk will do what they do best: slug it out.

I will now be presenting my case for why I think Asura defeats The Hulk.

The Complete Breakdown

Before we get into feats, I want to fill you guys in on the version of Asura I'll be using. Asura has many different forms so it can be confusing for those who are unfamiliar, but in this match, I'll be debating Mantra Asura. This is one of Asura's most powerful incarnations, but he only has a handful of standalone feats in this form; the rest of his power comes from scaling above feats performed in weaker forms (I think this is a similar situation to WBH scaling above other Green Scar showings).

Here are his forms (left to right) from weakest to strongest:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7
  • Base
  • Six-Armed Vajra Asura
  • Beserker Asura
  • Wrath Asura
  • Mantra Asura
  • Asura the Destructor
  • EOS (Unlimited Mode)

Like I said, I'll be capping at Mantra here, so only feats from base all the way through Wrath apply.

So now let's get to the breakdown. To begin with, Hulk has a lot of feats. Several decades of publication as one of the most popular brawlers in comics ensure that.

But for all your scan bombs, all your knowledge, and all your context, there are going to be some advantages Asura holds in this fight that are simply, physically impossible for you to overcome or circumvent. The most glaring one is speed. Now I'm sure you're used to debating Hulk against characters who are faster than him. Most Hulk debaters should be, as he is not exactly a speedster. But Hulk has a snowball's chance in hell of tagging him in melee, and Asura has the travel and reaction speed to avoid the AoE of Gamma Bursts, IN ADDITION to the durability to straight up bathe in thunderclaps. So in the event that Composite Hulk has some stray feat where he thunderclaps a light speed or above character mid-blitz, you'll still be stuck with the indisputable fact that Asura can literally just ignore those. Not to mention, Asura's pain tolerance allows him to deliver attacks at full power while missing entire limbs and even a torso. Asura has actually fought entire battles without arms (1, 2).

Another thing that a speed advantage affords Asura is the ability to blitz him. But I don't mean just any blitz. By your own admission of what you've stated when debating Hulk in previous CaVs, Hulk is hypersonic. Mantra Asura is massively faster than Base/Vajra Asura who has completed sub-relativistic movement, combat and reaction feats, like weaving through multiple homing lasers from Vlitra.

Context-

Vlitra's lasers have crossed multi-planetary distances in no more than three seconds.

Loading Video...

If you're not convinced of the distance, that attack from Vlitra in the video above wiped out the Guardian General's entire starship fleet, which was in the outermost orbit perched near the Karma Fortress; a construct that dwarfs Earth.

No Caption Provided

More perspective shots:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

With the size of the Karma Fortress in mind, when you look at the gif again, you can see that despite said Fortress being much larger than Earth, it looks very small in comparison to Earth due to how far away it is from our perspective in the gif. Meaning one could objectively argue based off visual scale that multiple Earths can fit in that space (at least 10 or more). The first ships started exploding within three seconds of us seeing the lasers. Knowing that Earth's diameter is 12,742 km, Vlitra's lasers are at the absolute minimum ~ mach 123k (sub-relativistic).

After getting a permanent Mantra boost from his daughter Mithra, Asura danced around multiple of them that were homing on him in base, his weakest possible incarnation. And he did while in much closer proximity to Vlitra.

Loading Video...

It goes without saying that one would need to be exponentially faster than a single laser for this to be possible, but the kicker is that this version of Asura would get blitzed and one-shot by Mantra. ( I'll later show the disparity between the two.) So I think it's fairly reasonable to argue Mantra Asura in the relativistic ranges, approaching the speed of light itself.

Considering hypersonic is single digit mach, Asura is quite literally dozens of thousands of times faster than Hulk. Hulk would be a STATUE to him. He can move miles in the time it takes Hulk moves an inch. And boy, wait till you see how Asura loves to spam punches...

No Caption Provided

That gif is a trade of blows between Asura and someone with EQUAL speed to him... Imagine what he will do to someone he is dozens of thousands of times faster than, someone who is literally not moving from his perspective. Asura will, without exaggeration, be able to land thousands of punches on Hulk before poor Hulk will ever get a chance to respond.

I'm sure there are probably a few instances out there somewhere that show Hulk reacting to and/or tagging characters way above his speed paygrade, which probably serves as the basis for your beliefs that he doesn't get hopelessly blitzed by any herald tier character he comes across. But there's a huge difference between barely perceiving someone who can run circles around you by feats before landing a glancing blow on them due to plot, and furiously trading blows with them as equals in speed like Asura does with Augus in the gif above.

This is game ending news for you because of the level of striking Asura possesses. Which leads me directly into...

Strength

Mantra Asura and Hulk are peers in terms of strength, which in and of itself spells doom for Hulk, unless of course you have feats of his durability and damage soak allowing him to tank or survive [THOUSANDS] ofplanet busting punches stacked on top of each other, and remain conscious even for a fleeting moment.

Let's start with some of Asura's bottom tier feats. In Asura's debut appearance, (first showing ever), he was able to subdue and completely ground Vlitra in 3 punches...

Loading Video...

Here is a statement that confirms it:

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This is impressive because Vlitra is roughly the size of a continent, give or take, and it is made up of Earth's crust in addition to being a sentient being with added durability on top of that.

No Caption Provided

So needless to say, Base Asura was already showcasing continent level striking strength by the end of his first appearance.

Now, let's dial it up to 11. Vajra Asura was capable of utterlyvaporizing Gongen Wyzen, reducing him to no more than twinkling star dust with a single full power punch, after catching and overpowering his country sized finger moving at re-entry speeds with a spam of punches.

Loading Video...

The thumbnail of that video is the scale of the resulting explosion after Asura vanquished Wyzen. As you can see, it's close to dwarfing the planet.

The reason why this feat is so impressive is because Gongen Wyzen is for one, not only bigger than Earth, but also made up of a material that is vastly more durable then the various stone and metals that constitute Earth's composition. Base Wyzen was throwing down with Asura and eating punches from him which would give him continent level durability, and that's when he was meters in size. But Vajra Wyzen took no damage from a bloodlusted punch from 6-Armed Vajra Asura that launched him into orbit, which would logically be far more powerful...

Loading Video...

There is no rock material or metal on Earth that can tank continent+ levels of force in building sized quantities, which is exactly what Vajra Wyzen did. Gongen Wyzen is just a supersized version of Vajra, so his durability would be scaled proportionately to his size. Asura vaporized Gongen Wyzen, who is larger than Earth but also exponentially more durable than stone... This would make the feat easily an order of magnitude more impressive than benchmark planet busting.

Now I know what some people may be thinking. "B-but, in the video where he busted Wyzen, it took Asura countless punches and his arms were getting destroyed in the process.."

Well, this is wrong. It didn't take Asura countless punches to destroy Wyzen; the action of destroying Wyzen took one full power blow. (The Burst meter had to fill up which is after which Asura delivers his strongest attacks.) It took Asura countless punches to overpower the force of Wyzen's finger pressing down on him, so he could DELIVER the final punch. Take another look...

Loading Video...

He was being squashed, but after a flashback where he remembers the purpose of his quest, he lets out a defiant shout of anger and then we cut to see Wyzen's face morph from smugness to rage. And then we cut back to find Asura relentlessly dishing out blows. It would make no sense for Wyzen to not be applying force all the while this was happening, as he was trying to squash him and noticed when Asura fought back. But the simple fact that Asura was buried to a crouch previously but then had enough room to stand up proves my point. It was the flurry of punches that overpowered Wyzen, and it was that flurry that unlocked the in-game mechanic of Burst mode where he unleashed a single full power blow that vaporized him.

Conclusion? A full power Asura is dishing out planet+ vaporizing punches TWO forms before his Mantra powerup....

Coupled with his speed, this means that Asura will be unloading thousands of planet+ vaporizing hits on Hulk before he gets a chance to respond. Considering Asura is capable of doing that within the interval of a second, you need to prove that Hulk's regen is good enough to return him from dust (the state Wyzen was in) in less than a second, or Asura will completely overwhelmed his regeneration capabilities by feats. And I know damn well Hulk doesn't have the durability and damage soak up to par to be able to withstand this kind of onslaught, so regen is what you're going to have to rely on.

From where I'm standing, this is a pretty irrefutable KO.

Durability

I'm only going to post on feat here for now. I just revisit and prove my claim that Asura would ignore Hulk's thunderclaps. Asura was able to tank the brunt of Vlitra's planetary energy blast while fighting him alongside Yasha, before plowing through said blast.

Loading Video...

The blast was pretty devastating, take a closer look.

No Caption Provided

Asura literally swam through it and into the core of the planet to fight Vlitra. He's also able to tank blows from people who are equal to him in strength and match him in fist locks (the gif I posted of Asura vs Augus is a good example, here is a repost for easy viewing).

No Caption Provided

So both his blunt force and energy projection durability are planet level or above.

In Summation

If you haven't noticed by now, I haven't actually posted feats from Mantra Asura.

I've only posted showings from weaker versions of Asura that I think are in and of themselves good enough to contend with and eventually overwhelm Hulk. So my next few posts are going to be the nail in the coffin, and my opponent already has a lot on his plate to prove that Hulk doesn't get straight up stomped here.

I mean, what is TDB to supposed to say? Really?

  • Asura is close to light speed. Hulk is hypersonic by TDB's own admission. So Hulk is literally not tagging me in melee, meaning striking strength feats will be for naught.
  • That also means Hulk has to rely on thunderclaps, but Asura has casual planet busting durability and Hulk's thunderclaps literally have zero quantifiable feats on that level.
  • Asura's energy durability is good enough to bathe in gamma bursts. So all in all, Hulk objectively can not hurt me.
  • Because of the speed disparity I can land thousands of blows on Hulk before he can think. EACH of Asura's punches are planet busting in weaker forms.
  • I'm still within the limits, so the only reason this is possible is because Hulk is slow. Other than that, I would say Asura and Composite Hulk are comparable in strength and durability. I have counters to the regen argument as well, since it is obvious that Hulk's natural durability and damage soak is not getting him through an onslaught.

Your move.

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HigherPower

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Atomickitten15

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For an opener that was damn good. Even saved some up for a comeback!

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Thedailybagel

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@higherpower: nice post dude, I’ll start making a counter asap.

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HigherPower

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blackpantherisb

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If I don’t tagged after every post I will become physically violent, and potentially need to be incarcerated.

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ArkhamAsylum3

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Gonna bookmark this for later.

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Streak619

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Noice Vulcan, noice. Taep

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Thedailybagel

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@higherpower: I promise, I’ll do my best at least ahah. Should be done in a few days.

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Thedailybagel

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Hulk - The Breaker of Worlds

Replace the lovely fellow by Hulk's feet with Asura for a glimpse into the future
Replace the lovely fellow by Hulk's feet with Asura for a glimpse into the future

I have to say Vulcan I'm impressed, but I'm also far more confident in Bruce's ability to win here after your post and especially after actually looking into Asura myself. I feel as though he's not as impressive as you're potraying him- certainly not enough to beat down Hulk in the manner that you've argued or even at all.

A brief overview

With that out of the way I feel I should at least introduce my character. I'll be using a composite version of Hulk which means the incarnations I can draw feats from include (but not limited to):

  1. Green Scar plus his WB form.
  2. Indestructible Hulk.
  3. Immortal Hulk
  4. Savage Hulk

His powerset comes down to what you'd expect; Strength and durability well above the planetary range, Healing which is going to make it impossible for you to put him down and a pain tolerance to accompany that, adaptation, Gamma Bursts, enhanced speed, rage empowerment as well as several other abilities that probably won't be needed here. With those abilties in mind, I'll concede the speed gap (though not nearly to the extent that you believe)... Everything else? No. Hulk is stronger, hits harder, is more durable, has a healing factor and the reaction speed to compete. I'll be blunt with you: Asura doesn't actually impress me to the point that I think he can win. You've oversold his capabilities and left out context which greatly hurts his showings, as well as half the damn game disagreeing with your assessment of his speed. Without further ado, let's actually get into the debate.

Why speed is not the focal point of the debate

Your argument relies so much on the speed gap that you've left a gaping hole wide open in your approach. I hate to break it to you Vulcan but Asura DOES NOT FIGHT AS FAST AS YOU CLAIM HE DOES.

It goes without saying that one would need to be exponentially faster than a single laser for this to be possible, but the kicker is that this version of Asura would get blitzed and one-shot by Mantra. ( I'll later show the disparity between the two.) So I think it's fairly reasonable to argue Mantra Asura in the relativistic ranges, approaching the speed of light itself.

Let me get this right... You're entire argument is based on Asura avoiding lasers.

...That is literally your entire argument as to why Hulk won't touch Asura. That simply isn't good enough, not only is Asura's 'relativistic speed' straight up non existant throughout nearly the entire game, but lasers are your proof for it. C'mon man, in Immortal Hulk's first appearance he straight up dodged a beam of energy from Vision at point blank range and closed the distance instantly...

No Caption Provided

Vision's beams are heat based 90% of the time (explicitly in this showing) and have been confirmed repeatedly to be busts of solar energy on a multitude of occasions which is only logical because the gem in his forehead is a Solar jewel...

There, Hulk dodged a lightspeed blast of energy so I guess he's lightspeed?

Of course not, but it's the same argument that you're using, although admittedly Asura does more than just a one off dodge. If you're going to argue that A) Asura fights at lightspeed consistentlyor B) Asura will continuously blitz, you need to actually show him doing any of those things in an actual fight. Which Asura doesn't do. He's been tagged constantly by considerably slower beings and his actual combat speed I dare say doesn't even seem to be much above Hypersonic 99% of the time. Two examples for now should showcase my point:

For instance Wyzen in his second form tagging Azura, grabbing him and throwing him whilst massively telegraphing his attack only for Asura to stand there like a dimwit:

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Wyzen was for all intents and purposes slow as balls, the absolute definition of a lumbering giant yet he tagged Asura multiple times in their fight. Now admittedly this is base form Asura and he did evade Wyzen's attacks for a good deal of time after this before getting tagged again but it's only my first example. Your own feat is Asura in his Six-Armed Vajra form which is a step above this, so why don't we skip to the form after that and use his Berserker form wherein he literally loses all sense of reason and thus has no reason to hold back either his speed or his punches.

Loading Video...

Now for the voters, the person Asura is fighting is Yasha who consistently is either potrayed as equal or superior to Asura. this is the fastest they fight in their entire encounter, at times they genuinely just stand still and trade haymakers. And this is a more powerful form of Asura than what you claimed had sub relativistic movement, not to mention completely bloodlusted to boot. There're actually allot more examples I can use but I'll stick with these for now. This is faster than Hulk normally fights, but it's nothing to write home about and far from lightspeed. Now that I think about it, the only time Asura ever shows speed substantially greater than this is when he's zipping around in space. He never fights at that pace.

Asura will, without exaggeration, be able to land thousands of punches on Hulk before poor Hulk will ever get a chance to respond.

This is actually just complete nonsense. Asura only ever throws dozens of punches in a short burst of time... Keyword. Short burst. Asura never fights like that for an entire encounter, he does it for a couple of seconds then goes back to trying to land haymakers and fighting at significantly slower speeds, which again to reempahsise - he's throwing dozens of punches over the course of a few seconds which isn't actually that impressive. That speed is no more impressive than Hulk blitz stomping a few metahuman cowboys in Indestructible Hulk #12 whoactual sharpshooters like Two Gun Kid couldn't even see...

No Caption Provided

Taking this into account, Hulk landed in front of these Cowboys and blitzed all of them, taking each down with a single punch before they could react:

No Caption Provided

Moreover the fact that each of the Cowboys appear equidistant to Hulk despite him hitting them individually implies that the time gap between his hits was all but non existent. The key difference between Hulk and Asura being that as WBH, these hits will be planet busting.

To be honest, I don't think the speed gap is that big an issue at all becaue Asura's actual combat speed isn't really that fast to begin with, at least with what you've brought to the table. I will concede that Asura is a good deal faster, but it's not a game changer and his high speed barrages don't pack as much power as you believe they do. I'll reserve other counters for now in case you have something else up your sleeve. Now I'll get into why Hulk actually wins here.

Asura's physicals vs Hulk's

Similar to his speed, you've really oversold Asura's physicals coming into this debate, I don't think that Asura has much, if anything, on Hulk where physicals are concerned.

So needless to say, Base Asura was already showcasing continent level striking strength by the end of his first appearance.

The thing is there's a glaring issue or two here that you seem to have missed for this to be an actual estimate for the power of his punches, the main one being that he's in freaking freefall from space. Speed amplifies damage so much that it's not even funny, a meteor the size of a football field could obliterate New York if dropped at reenentry speeds and Asura hadn't even reached the atmosphere to lose any momentum yet. There's multiple downright common sense explanations to back this up as well.

  1. Viltra is a huge threat, if Asura can straight up three shot him in his six armed form without momentum then most of the other generals could have done it too given that they were either around his level or stronger at that point in time (significantly so in one or two cases), yet almost all of them were part of the attack.
  2. Based on the above, almost every character that Asura fights is also more durable than Viltra because they all take plenty of punches from Asura. Which logically just makes zero sense.

So essentially, this is a useful showings if Asura launches himself from a few million miles away to amp up his striking power with momentum... Except it isn't, because Hulk already smiled off hits comparable to this in his regular Green Scar form in Incredible Hulks #611. Skaar absorbed 100 trillion tons of shifting lithosphere and smacked Hulk right in the chest with it, leading Hulk to smash into and destroy a large mountain/hill several hundred miles away. Hulk smiled in response and proceeded to treat Skaar like a damn toddler, and Skaar is a low level high tier himself.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Coincedently, the Meteor that wiped out the Dinosaurs is also theorised to have weighed 100 trillion tons, and using Nukemap we can see an easy estimate of how much damage that caused:

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So if Asura does plan to fall from space then he's going to have to do better than what you've shown.

Now, let's dial it up to 11. Vajra Asura was capable of utterlyvaporizing Gongen Wyzen, reducing him to no more than twinkling star dust with a single full power punch, after catching and overpowering his country sized finger moving at re-entry speeds with a spam of punches.

Wait wait wait. First of all Asura didn't utterly vaporise Wyzen because all the deities turn to stardust when they die, he just damaged him enough to kill him. Secondly...

Asura's dozens of punches had zero impact on Wyzen despite them shattering 5 of his 6 arms??? You're assuming that punches with enough power to >shatter Asura's own arms< contributed zilch to Wyzen exploding. That just makes no sense to me. Admittedly the feat is most likely above standard planet busting because Wyzen himself is near earth sized and clearly more durable as you've explained - I have no issue with that. But I can't fathom how you've come to the conclusion that one punch did all the work in comparison to dozens. I mean sure, let's say it did. Let's say if Asura puts all his power into one punch in his six armed form he's capable of planet busting+output (which he just didn't do, but lets run with it). What is the result of that planet level power?

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His arm fell off and he passed out from exhaustion.

Right. I may as well just take the kid gloves off now and demonstrate why this just won't cut it against Hulk here, namely this feat from Incredible Hulks #634 wherein him and Betty totally destroy an entire Planet, crack two moons along with Billions of mindless ones and pretty much everyone present aside from Umar in their clash...

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The significance of this is more accurately portrayed in Incredible Hulks #635 which starts off immediately after the first clash and allows us to survey the surroundings because Strange is stopping time. Not only is Hulk completely unharmed whilst everyone else aside from Betty is burning up, but everyone one from Amped Wendigo to Armageddon are being incinerated.

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In layman's terms, Hulk busted a planet without even touching it and the resulting explosion left him with a smile on his face and totally unharmed by the damage. This is just straight up better than any of the feats you've shown, both in terms of durability and striking prowess. The funny thing is that Six armed Asura had his arm shattered when Augus slammed him back into Gaea from the Moon which caused a relatively miniscule shockwave and collateral damage compared to what your dealing with against World Breaker Hulk. Even more to the point is that Asura Clearly put a ton of effort into blocking an attack - to the point of screaming in exasperation - from Augus that when reflected caused a large amount of damage to the Moon, but nowhere near a devastating degree...

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The reason I bring this up is because Hulk actually caused way more damage to the moon orbiting the planet he destroyed without being anywhere near it.

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This may seem harsh but Six armed Asura doesn't have shit on Hulk and I've barely gotten started yet. The main flaw I have with Asura's damage output is that he blatantly doesn't hit as hard when fighting at high speeds so Hulk won't be dealing with "thousands of planet busting punches a second", based on his six armed form most of Asura's hits would be well below planet busting until he decideds to put all of his power into one punch. Your own example with Wyzen is a perfect example of this:

  • Based on your own argument, those countless punches did absolutely nothing and therefore were well below planet busting output until Asura put all of his power into one punch. Or...
  • It took Asura all of those punches plus the haymaker to cause planet busting damage.

Either of the above work in Hulk's favour because Hulk busts planets casually - Planet busting hits literally do not hurt him. Asura does not. Asura either needs to land countless shots to cause planet level damage plus a haymaker, or needs to land a big ass haymaker which can knock his own arm off and make him fall asleep from exhhaustion, and that will still not hurt Hulkregardless. Now I appreicate that Mantra Asura is stronger so I won't go ahead and say that Hulk won't feel anything, but you need to bring more to the table to keep this competitive.

Asura's durability

I'm only going to post on feat here for now. I just revisit and prove my claim that Asura would ignore Hulk's thunderclaps. Asura was able to tank the brunt of Vlitra's planetary energy blast while fighting him alongside Yasha, before plowing through said blast.

The blast was pretty devastating, take a closer look.

Asura literally swam through it and into the core of the planet to fight Vlitra

You've tripped up in your own post Vulcan. Earlier you claimed that you hadn't shown any Mantra Asura feats yet, this is explicitly untrue because the Asura in this showing is Mantra Asura. The only feat that blast has other than it's size is subduing six armed Asura and Yasha, and by subdue I just mean destroy a few of his arms...

Asura is pretty much fine after this, so all we know of Mantra Asura is that he's a bit more durable than regular Asura
Asura is pretty much fine after this, so all we know of Mantra Asura is that he's a bit more durable than regular Asura

To go back to what I mentioned earlier, breaking Asura's arms isn't really a big deal because Augus did it by slamming him into Gaea from the moon...

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As you can see, the shockwave really isn't anything that regular Hulk can't handle, let alone WBH who wouldn't even feel it. Now you can argue that Mantra Asura is above this so it's not exactly valid, but Mantra Asura was KOed by Viltra exploding which was below planet busting as well, although I'll get to that later in the debate. Admittedly Asura is very tough, powering through a blast as big as Viltra's in his Mantra form is impressive, but Hulk's primary means of damage is blunt force and he's exceedingly good at it. For now I'll stick with Immortal Hulk's better feats, for example oneshotting Thor and cracking his skull in Immortal Hulk #7 which speaks for itself. Immortal Hulk also has another feat which should solidly showcase Hulk's ability to severely hurt Asura, namely using his physical strength in Defenders: The Best Defence #1, more specifcally using the Silver Surfer's board as a blunt object and hitting a being named Nebulon so hard with it that it caused the board to bend and psychically scream in pain.

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Toomie (the boards name) is virtually as durable as Surfer himself is given that he's reformed it by dripping himself onto it before and was confirmed by Galactus himself to be virtually indestructible from it's inception in Silver Surfer Vol.1 #1...

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This claim has been substantiated in later handbook entries such as the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Book of Weapons, Hardware and Paraphernalia, the same board has flown through stars and taken blasts from Ego as well as plenty more, so Hulk bending it is no small feat. This is made even more impressive because Al Ewing (the creator and writer of Immortal Hulk) has stated that WBH is stronger than Immortal Hulk. I think this in conjunction with World Breaker Hulk's planet bust should be enough for now in demonstrating that Hulk can severely harm Asura.

Hulk's damage soak

I feel like I've made a pretty convincing case that Asura's current showings aren't really good enough to hurt Hulk, nor can he take a large amount of hits either. But I've only really shown two durability feats and haven't showcased his healing factor. I'm aware that Asura has energy projection, so to eliminate that from the debate I'll just use Hulk powering through a blast from Armageddon that was powered by his own gamma energy in Incredible Hulks #332 and then proceeded to melt Armaggedons face with it...

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This is important because Armaggedons whole shtick is to channel peoples power source and use it against them in the form of energy blasts. Armaggedons only other durability feat was pretty much taking a blast of energy powered by Silver Surfer and shrugging it off. The same blast had Norrin and Hulk completely Immobilised.

And Hulk tanked a blast that melted that guys face as well as beating him into a pulp before reaching his World Breaker state.

I have counters to the regen argument as well, since it is obvious that Hulk's natural durability and damage soak is not getting him through an onslaught.

Now, as much as I disagree with your assesement that Hulk's durability is not enough - he has an absurd healing factor to fall back on in the case that it does somehow fail him. A good example to use would be Hulk vs Strange possessed by Zom in world war hulk #4, wherein Zom literally put gaping Holes inside of Hulk's stomach and lit magical fireworks off inside, ultimately giving him a far more brutal beating than what I can feasibly see Asura doing.

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As can be seen, Hulk got kicked around and had a mallet hand put through his stomach, which then exploded inside of him whilst strange continually blasted the hole, he then punted Hulk into a building which collapsed on top of him.

Hulk had seconds to recover, and he healed as if nothing had happened:

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And this is nowhere near the most impressive that his healing factor can be because Immortal Hulk's healing is even more ridiculous. A few examples should suffice...

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  1. Immortal Hulk #1: Once the night comes, turns and heals from banner being shot in the head and dying
  2. Immortal Hulk #2: Instantly Turns to Hulk and heals from his neck being snapped
  3. Immortal Hulk #3: Instantly heals a huge hole in his torso created by Hotshot.

This should give an idea as to how powerful his healing factor is nowadays, but to really understand how OP it is Hulk allowed himself in Immortal Hulk #8 to be cut apart and disected to test the extent of his immortality. Case in point...

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He can control his limbs without them being attached to his body, survive with all his organs missing and can heal it all back together in seconds. Good luck getting past that. The kicker is that Immortal Hulk's healing is more effective and makes him literally unkillable, but Green Scar's acted quicker and patched up deadly wounds nigh instantly, with composite feats I have access to both.

In Summary

Funnily enough TDB actually had allot to say. Asura is certainly impressive and he's going to make Hulk work for the win, but ultimately your own argument had several undeniable flaws that are simply too big to gloss over:

  • Asura does not fight at lightspeed and I can virtually guarantee you that I'll win this side of the debate because you simply lack feats to support your side of the argument. Asura's victory relied so heavily on this facet of the debate that with it gone there isn't much you can do to overwhelm Hulk's damage soak and healing factor, which leads me into my next point...
  • You've portrayed Asura as having casual planet busting punches, which in his Six Armed form he does not have. He landed dozens upon dozens of punches on Wyzen, now whether you believe he did it in one punch or did it with all of them, he lost all of his arms doing it, KOed himself and that kind of damage still would not hurt Hulk. Mantra Asura may hit harder, but not hard enough that he'll beat Hulk.
  • Asura's own durability just isn't enough to deal with Bruce's hits. In his six armed form he's noticeably struggled to push back an attack well below moon busting, KOed himself causing planetary+ output and his arm broke after being thrown back into Earth from the Moon, even his Mantra form has been KOed by a blast that seemed around planet level. This just doesn't cut it against someone who shreds planets as a baseline, and has cracked Thor's skull and bent Norrin's board in a weaker form than what Asura is facing here. The thing is, I still have several angles I can approach that I haven't brought up yet.
  • On the same notion, Asura does not have any noticeable healing factor and his pain tolerance is well below Hulks. Injuries that would immbolise or kill Asura would hardly be on Hulk's radar, which means although you have the speed edge, Hulk can still outlast Asura because every punch he lands is actually going to matter in the long run.

I'm well aware that Mantra Asura is stronger, but the difference has to be night and day if you want to keep up with the debate. You mentioned thunderclaps allot, so to cover all my bases I'll finish off by establishing how powerful Hulk's thunderclaps can be in the event that Asura becomes difficult to tag. Namely this showing from Immortal Hulk #13 where Hulk thunderclaps so damn hard that he caused TOBA and all of his monsters to tempoarily dissipate...

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For perspective, the TOBA was huge and covered the entire skyline and a small number of those little monsters were capable of giving a drained Hulk and hollow A-bomb a good fight to the point of overwhelming them. Even in his drained state, Hulk was capable of ripping hollow Red Hulk in half. Hulk's thunderclaps destroyed millions of those things once he got his full power back.

And I haven't even got to his best thunderclapping feats yet.

The balls in your court now, good luck in your reply @higherpower

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ArkhamAsylum3

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#37  Edited By ArkhamAsylum3

Great posts from both of you. Only briefly skimmed the second one. Will have a more thorough read through both posts tomorrow.

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#38  Edited By Thedailybagel

@higherpower: just checking so I have a time frame, when do you think you’ll be able to get your reply up by?

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@thedailybagel: You kept your word and your post was pretty succinct, so I'll try to have it up today. This should give you some space to work on it the entire weekend.

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Nice debate. Tag after every post please.

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#41  Edited By HigherPower

Round 2

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I'm gonna nip this in the bud:

  • Hulk can not react to Asura.
  • Hulk can not tag Asura.
  • Hulk can not put down Asura.
  • And Hulk can not survive a spam of punches from Asura at full power.

There was absolutely nothing that was stated or shown that effectively changes this, nor did I see any feats that would trump Asura's capabilities at full power. Only huge reaches to debunk clear-cut and otherwise irrefutable feats from weaker versions of Asura.

In this post, after my counterarguments I will focus on demonstrating the disparity between Mantra Asura and the versions of which my opener's strength and speed feats come from. So admitting that the feats from my opener can give Hulk trouble are of themselves an automatic concession.

Speed

Let me get this right... You're entire argument is based on Asura avoiding lasers.

A gross oversimplification like this is just another way of blatantly denying on-screen feats. To discredit the entire showing due to the involvement of lasers is insulting, since I went out of my way to prove the speed of the lasers, using perspective shots that provided an objective visual scale of the distance crossed.

...That is literally your entire argument as to why Hulk won't touch Asura. That simply isn't good enough, not only is Asura's 'relativistic speed' straight up non existant throughout nearly the entire game, but lasers are your proof for it. C'mon man, in Immortal Hulk's first appearance he straight up dodged a beam of energy from Vision at point blank range and closed the distance instantly...

Vision's beams are heat based 90% of the time (explicitly in this showing) and have been confirmed repeatedly to be busts of solar energy on a multitude of occasions which is only logical because the gem in his forehead is a Solar jewel...

There, Hulk dodged a lightspeed blast of energy so I guess he's lightspeed?

There are so many things wrong with this, at first I didn't know where to begin. For starters, the obvious reason no one argues Hulk at lightspeed is because he doesn't dodge light speed attacks consistently. Number two, there's actually zero proof that laser is lightspeed if your only evidence for it being that speed is a description of it being "Solar energy".

Because it sounds A LOT like you're trying to compare Vision's laser to a Solar Flare, which is faulty for several reasons, namely-

  • Solar flare's are powerful mass coronal ejections from the Sun, that typically carry around 1020+ joules of energy (sextillions)
  • They are imbued with magnetism and have a solar irradiance output drastically above what Vision dishes out
  • They can cross millions of miles in seconds

All of which Vision's don't have. (The third bullet point is crossing a large distance in a short amount of time which Vlitra's lasers did.) Simply adding a "solar" tag line doesn't mean shit in a medium where a character being consistent is something to rejoice over, not something to be expected. To top it all off, virtually all lasers are made out of light or a form of energy on the EM spectrum.

Of course not, but it's the same argument that you're using, although admittedly Asura does more than just a one off dodge. If you're going to argue that A) Asura fights at lightspeed consistentlyor B) Asura will continuously blitz, you need to actually show him doing any of those things in an actual fight. Which Asura doesn't do.

The consistency argument is vain on Asura, since he gets several amps and becomes progressively stronger as the game moves forward, and because he has zero anti-feats in each successive form to contradict his baseline speed. (In fact, in his Destructor form he becomes absurdly MFTL.)

All of Asura's boss fights are against people who are physically equal to him as well. Asura has literally never failed blitzed someone who was shown to be slower than him. Take Sergei for example, who found out the hard way, as Asura disemboweled him without a moments hesitation before he could react...

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Even Wyzen—who you later tried to used as an anti-feat example—was handily outpaced multiple times...

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Another example, and in this one he punches him down, face palms him, then ragdolls him with physical strength:

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He's been tagged constantly by considerably slower beings and his actual combat speed I dare say doesn't even seem to be much above Hypersonic 99% of the time. Two examples for now should showcase my point:

For instance Wyzen in his second form tagging Azura, grabbing him and throwing him whilst massively telegraphing his attack only for Asura to stand there like a dimwit:

Wyzen was for all intents and purposes slow as balls, the absolute definition of a lumbering giant yet he tagged Asura multiple times in their fight.

In that instance, Asura was boiling over with rage because Wyzen had taunted him over the Deities use of his daughter Mithra, and thus he was caught off-guard. Wyzen literally did the exact same thing seconds later into the fight (except with a punch), and Asura dodged it with ease...

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Your entire polemic regarding Asura vs Wyzen amounts to literally nothing credible that can be used to refute the fact that Asura will blitz Hulk. Especially since Asura was still capable of outpacing Wyzen and landing multiple hits on him at different points in time, and based on your OWN admission-

One of the many times TDB debunks his own arguments
One of the many times TDB debunks his own arguments

-in addition to the cut-scenes and gameplay we have BOTH posted, Asura is still portrayed to be much faster than Wyzen in [WEAKER FORMS THAN MANTRA]. Making my argument that Mantra Asura blitzes Hulk a simple fact, and the reality of how the encounter between them will play out.

Your own feat is Asura in his Six-Armed Vajra form which is a step above this, so why don't we skip to the form after that and use his Berserker form wherein he literally loses all sense of reason and thus has no reason to hold back either his speed or his punches.

Now for the voters, the person Asura is fighting is Yasha who consistently is either potrayed as equal or superior to Asura. this is the fastest they fight in their entire encounter, at times they genuinely just stand still and trade haymakers. And this is a more powerful form of Asura than what you claimed had sub relativistic movement, not to mention completely bloodlusted to boot. There're actually allot more examples I can use but I'll stick with these for now. This is faster than Hulk normally fights, but it's nothing to write home about and far from lightspeed.

First of all that's Wrath Asura, the form after Beserker who's body was blackened by his own rage, and the form who took critical damage from the Brahmastra (so Wrath is effectively weaker than Beserker). Second, that clip literally in no way, shape or form debunks Asura's speed. Like you said he's fighting someone equal to him in stats, and this is a cinematic game so sequences like that are meant to show detail.

I will forgive you because it appears as if you're new to debating Asian media content, and the mechanics of video game animation are foreign to you. Otherwise it is unforgivable to insinuate that Asura isn't close to lightspeed because he didn't appear that fast when fighting someone equal to him in stats. Said insinuation which also happens to be an argument from incredulity, and betrays your lack of knowledge on animation in general (appearing fast =/= fast, and the inverse is also true).

Hell, this even applies to comics and manga. When previously established FTL characters are fighting each other, how often does the actual art depict them moving FTL? Never, because still images can only depict speed through panel flow and speed lines. You wouldn't know how fast a character is moving unless their speed is stated, a time frame is given or a distance is crossed under a situational time frame. This is all in all just a terrible argument from you. There are so many different ways I can bury it, but I've already spent more than 3 paragraphs and I don't feel like dropping an additional scan bomb when I think you get the point.

Now that I think about it, the only time Asura ever shows speed substantially greater than this is when he's zipping around in space. He never fights at that pace.

I think what you meant to say is that in space he's flying which adds to maneuverability, and he usually doesn't abuse flight in battles because it's a beat em' action game that focuses on brawls. Not that he's magically faster.

This is actually just complete nonsense. Asura only ever throws dozens of punches in a short burst of time...

Yeah and Hulk has never tanked dozens of planet+ vaporizing punches in a short time-frame and survived. So even with your incessant lowballing you haven't moved from square one.

I will concede that Asura is a good deal faster, but it's not a game changer and his high speed barrages don't pack as much power as you believe they do.

Then what was it all for? You could've just skipped the speed section entirely and went straight to countering Asura's striking power. Conceding that Asura is a "good deal faster" than Hulk two forms before Mantra, and trying grasping for straws to make him look slow just seems pointless to me. Because it means that you know Hulk can't react to him worth of shit, and that Asura will never have any problem landing as many hits as you wants at any given point in their match.

Strength

The thing is there's a glaring issue or two here that you seem to have missed for this to be an actual estimate for the power of his punches, the main one being that he's in freaking freefall from space. Speed amplifies damage so much that it's not even funny, a meteor the size of a football field could obliterate New York if dropped at reenentry speeds and Asura hadn't even reached the atmosphere to lose any momentum yet.

He's simply closing the distance between himself and his opponent....

Are you going to try to use the fact that Asura was flying toward someone to smack them to diminish the feat? This is not like when Superman accelerated to top speed to bust a moon with a bullrush. Asura was far away from Vlitra, so all he did was dash towards him to close the distance and deliver a strike... this is a clear-cut rudimentary striking feat that you're trying to debunk by mentioning meteors.

Additionally, there's no meteor that can be the size of Asura (human sized/few meters) and have enough power to KO a large continent sized mound of sentient rock. So Asura still completed the feat due to superhuman strength, even if you want to make yourself believe the BS free fall/meteor analogy.

Viltra is a huge threat, if Asura can straight up three shot him in his six armed form without momentum then most of the other generals could have done it too given that they were either around his level or stronger at that point in time (significantly so in one or two cases), yet almost all of them were part of the attack.

Yeah, it's not like the Generals were busy fighting an army of untold numbers of Gohma that Vlitra spawned, who each were powerful enough to require some attention from the likes of Asura and Yasha.

Based on the above, almost every character that Asura fights is also more durable than Viltra because they all take plenty of punches from Asura. Which logically just makes zero sense.

This rebuttal logically makes zero sense. Tanking blows from Asura is a feat, and it's not inconsistent with the other showings of the characters who did it (Yasha, Augus, Deus and Wyzen).

Wait wait wait. First of all Asura didn't utterly vaporise Wyzen because all the deities turn to stardust when they die, he just damaged him enough to kill him

No he vaporized him. Wyzen's body was turned into molten red-yellow, and he was slowly vaporized from the tip of his finger all the way up his arm and slowly throughout his entire body.

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And this was the "stardust" that I was referring to. Wyzen's explosion.

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It's undeniably different from the deaths of the other Gods in Asura's Wrath. A massize fireball with twinkling beams soaring out from all directions. Asura vaporized Wyzen and you literally can not counter that. It would just be denial.

Asura's dozens of punches had zero impact on Wyzen despite them shattering 5 of his 6 arms??? You're assuming that punches with enough power to >shatter Asura's own arms< contributed zilch to Wyzen exploding. That just makes no sense to me.

But I can't fathom how you've come to the conclusion that one punch did all the work in comparison to dozens.

Because those dozens of punches served the purpose of filling up Asura's Burst gauge. And they also overpowered the force of Wyzen pressing down on him. If you had actually ever played the game (hell, even if you were paying attention when you were watching) you would have known this and I wouldn't need to explain what Burst is.

Burst Mode is a gameplay function where Asura delivers one powerful attack (or a combination of powerful attacks) after his Burst meter/gauge fills up. This has happened in ever single one of his fights.

Example.

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What Asura did against Wyzen's finger was unleash a flurry of regular punches that caused NO VISIBLE DAMAGE to Wyzen, but filled up his burst gauge upon which he released one super powerful punch that vaporized him. You can clearly tell that it was the Burst punch that did Wyzen in. Because it was after several on screen prompts that tell you to clench your fist, and once you deliver the punch, Wyzen's fingertip turns molten.

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I mean sure, let's say it did. Let's say if Asura puts all his power into one punch in his six armed form he's capable of planet busting+output (which he just didn't do, but lets run with it). What is the result of that planet level power?

His arm fell off and he passed out from exhaustion.

How convenient it is for you to cut the video off seconds before Asura gets up, and—without arms—fights Yasha in a harrowing battle. Someone who is his PHYSICAL EQUAL.

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Asura fought him for an extended period of time (the entire episode 6) so him collapsing for a few seconds as a breather can't even be used as a knock against him...

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And lastly, did you forget I'm using a much stronger version of Asura? These things wouldn't even apply to him.

In layman's terms, Hulk busted a planet without even touching it and the resulting explosion left him with a smile on his face and totally unharmed by the damage. This is just straight up better than any of the feats you've shown, both in terms of durability and striking prowess. The funny thing is that Six armed Asura had his arm shattered when Augus slammed him back into Gaea from the Moon which caused a relatively miniscule shockwave and collateral damage compared to what your dealing with against World Breaker Hulk. Even more to the point is that Asura Clearly put a ton of effort into blocking an attack - to the point of screaming in exasperation - from Augus that when reflected caused a large amount of damage to the Moon, but nowhere near a devastating degree...

I consider WBH's planet busting feat to be in league with or slightly better than Vajra Asura's. That's just gonna be something we'll have to leave to the voters. The only reason I feel it doesn't matter here is because Mantra Asura is much stronger than the version who completed that feat, and because Asura is so much faster than Hulk that he'll never get tagged by his striking power, while Hulk in turn will be punched repeatedly with blows well above planet busting.

Not even sure what you're trying to prove with Augus or why it matters.

The reason I bring this up is because Hulk actually caused way more damage to the moon orbiting the planet he destroyed without being anywhere near it.

This may seem harsh but Six armed Asura doesn't have shit on Hulk and I've barely gotten started yet. The main flaw I have with Asura's damage output is that he blatantly doesn't hit as hard when fighting at high speeds so Hulk won't be dealing with "thousands of planet busting punches a second", based on his six armed form most of Asura's hits would be well below planet busting until he decideds to put all of his power into one punch. Your own example with Wyzen is a perfect example of this:

Is this what you tell yourself to make yourself feel better? I'm not using Vajra Asura here. I'm using Mantra, which is to Vajra what World Breaker is to Savage Hulk. Asura will be showering Hulk with blows and blitzing him left and right.

  • Based on your own argument, those countless punches did absolutely nothing and therefore were well below planet busting output until Asura put all of his power into one punch. Or...

Yes and every punch Asura throws here will have all his power in it.

  • It took Asura all of those punches plus the haymaker to cause planet busting damage.

A notion that disagrees with the actual gameplay and visuals that we can all see and verify.

Either of the above work in Hulk's favour because Hulk busts planets casually - Planet busting hits literally do not hurt him. Asura does not.

Weaker forms of Asura don't...

Planet busting punches may not hurt him, but there's no proof that a furious spam of them won't.

Durability

You've tripped up in your own post Vulcan. Earlier you claimed that you hadn't shown any Mantra Asura feats yet, this is explicitly untrue because the Asura in this showing is Mantra Asura. The only feat that blast has other than it's size is subduing six armed Asura and Yasha, and by subdue I just mean destroy a few of his arms...

To go back to what I mentioned earlier, breaking Asura's arms isn't really a big deal because Augus did it by slamming him into Gaea from the moon...

My apologies on that. Anyway, subduing Asura and Yasha together would be above planet level. And your Augus debunk that you continue repeating is hilarious because you're not taking into the fact that Augus' own strength and force contributed to Asura's arms breaking, and it wasn't simply the fact that he landed on Earth from the Moon.

Mantra Asura was KOed by Viltra exploding which was below planet busting as well, although I'll get to that later in the debate.

Stop omitting context to lowball. Mantra Asura and Yasha used every fiber of their being in a combined attack that destroyed Vlitra, and Asura was as much exhausted then as we was when he destroyed Wyzen in Vajra form.

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He had just been through a huge, taxing battle, so it's not like he was KO'd by the force of the blast alone... which would obviously not make sense to argue since he already bathed in a blast of similar magnitude.

Admittedly Asura is very tough, powering through a blast as big as Viltra's in his Mantra form is impressive, but Hulk's primary means of damage is blunt force and he's exceedingly good at it.

You do realize Hulk's not tagging him... right?

For now I'll stick with Immortal Hulk's better feats, for example oneshotting Thor and cracking his skull in Immortal Hulk #7 which speaks for itself. Immortal Hulk also has another feat which should solidly showcase Hulk's ability to severely hurt Asura, namely using his physical strength in Defenders: The Best Defence #1, more specifcally using the Silver Surfer's board as a blunt object and hitting a being named Nebulon so hard with it that it caused the board to bend and psychically scream in pain.

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Toomie (the boards name) is virtually as durable as Surfer himself is given that he's reformed it by dripping himself onto it before and was confirmed by Galactus himself to be virtually indestructible from it's inception in Silver Surfer Vol.1 #1...

This claim has been substantiated in later handbook entries such as the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Book of Weapons, Hardware and Paraphernalia, the same board has flown through stars and taken blasts from Ego as well as plenty more, so Hulk bending it is no small feat. This is made even more impressive because Al Ewing (the creator and writer of Immortal Hulk) has stated that WBH is stronger than Immortal Hulk. I think this in conjunction with World Breaker Hulk's planet bust should be enough for now in demonstrating that Hulk can severely harm Asura.

All of this is completely useless because I told you from the getgo that Hulk has zero speed feats to suggest he could everland a blow on Asura... and you failed to disprove that miserably.

I feel like I've made a pretty convincing case that Asura's current showings aren't really good enough to hurt Hulk, nor can he take a large amount of hits either.

Hulk is not hitting him and doesn't have the durability feats to withstand relentless onslaught of planet+ vaporizing punches for an extended period of time.

Now, as much as I disagree with your assesement that Hulk's durability is not enough - he has an absurd healing factor to fall back on in the case that it does somehow fail him. A good example to use would be Hulk vs Strange possessed by Zom in world war hulk #4, wherein Zom literally put gaping Holes inside of Hulk's stomach and lit magical fireworks off inside, ultimately giving him a far more brutal beating than what I can feasibly see Asura doing.

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As can be seen, Hulk got kicked around and had a mallet hand put through his stomach, which then exploded inside of him whilst strange continually blasted the hole, he then punted Hulk into a building which collapsed on top of him.

Hulk had seconds to recover, and he healed as if nothing had happened:

And this is nowhere near the most impressive that his healing factor can be because Immortal Hulk's healing is even more ridiculous. A few examples should suffice...

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  1. Immortal Hulk #1: Once the night comes, turns and heals from banner being shot in the head and dying
  2. Immortal Hulk #2: Instantly Turns to Hulk and heals from his neck being snapped
  3. Immortal Hulk #3: Instantly heals a huge hole in his torso created by Hotshot.

This should give an idea as to how powerful his healing factor is nowadays, but to really understand how OP it is Hulk allowed himself in Immortal Hulk #8 to be cut apart and disected to test the extent of his immortality. Case in point...

He can control his limbs without them being attached to his body, survive with all his organs missing and can heal it all back together in seconds. Good luck getting past that. The kicker is that Immortal Hulk's healing is more effective and makes him literally unkillable, but Green Scar's acted quicker and patched up deadly wounds nigh instantly, with composite feats I have access to both.

Hulk's healing factor has always impressed me and admittedly was one of the few things I was wary of going into this battle. But I realized that Asura has one of the craziest stamina/endurance feats I've ever seen which allows me to believe he could tax Hulk's HF eventually.

In the DLC where he fought Akuma, Mantra Asura was capable of fighting Akuma at full power for 500 years straight without stopping.

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I mean come on, look at how furiously they're trading blows back and forth, and spamming punches

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Akuma is as fast as Asura mind you, not as slow as Hulk, which would make spamming dozens of punches = spamming thousands due to the speed difference.

And I think I've successfully proved that Mantra Asura should at the very least be above standard planet busting in terms of striking power (in league with Hulk), so.... the question remains. Can Hulk really heal from or even survive thousands of planet+ vaporizing punches for 500 years straight?

There are simply no feats that would allow him to survive this. And because he can not tag him to hit him, because thunderclaps are not powerful enough to damage someone who can ignore planet level blasts and planet level punches, Hulk simply is not winning this match.

Conclusion

My conclusion is the same statement I opened this post with and ended my opener with. Hulk can't tag Asura so all his striking feats are for naught, and he can't put him down with thunderclaps. On the other hand, Asura is dozens of thousands of times faster than Hulk and indeed blitzes people slower than him, so Hulk will be hit with thousands of planet busting blows. As for his regen, he has no feats of returning from dust and much less doing so within seconds for over 500 years constantly.

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HigherPower

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Seems to be a good counter, I'll read it tomorrow morning.

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Ha noice

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Seems to be a good counter, I'll read it tomorrow morning.

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#47  Edited By 20damon

Very disappointed with HigherPower's counter after his very good opener. Not sure if i am allowed to give my reasons until voting opens though, so until i get the go head to do so, i'll keep it to myself.

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#48  Edited By HigherPower

@20damon: That's disconcerting.. if you approved of my opener then I doubt your problems with my counter have anything to do with the arguments at hand, since all I did was reinforce my original points.

So if you have advice to give feel free to pm me.

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Hulk vs Asura: Round two

"How you talk about anger... Like it's something that needs letting out. Like it's useful. Like it can get things done. You don't lock it away, call it another name, pretend it's not you. You're not ashamed of it. That. I like that."

At this point in the debate I honestly think that Hulk has this in the bag. Asura simply is not as fast or nearly as powerful as you're arguing him to be. Hulk is flat out better in nearly every relevant category sans speed and actually has feats to support my arguments. Something that I've noticed Asura severely lacks. You haven't shown the disparity between Mantra Asura and prior forms... Like, at all and at no point did I say your feats would give Hulk trouble. I quite clearly said that I'll hold back on saying he'll no sell everything because you're using Mantra Asura but at this point I'm very confident in saying that Asua isn't doing anything significant to him. Saying that, let's deal with Asura's non existant lightspeed combat speed...

Asura's 'speed'

A gross oversimplification like this is just another way of blatantly denying on-screen feats. To discredit the entire showing due to the involvement of lasers is insulting, since I went out of my way to prove the speed of the lasers, using perspective shots that provided an objective visual scale of the distance crossed.

It's clear that you couldn't actually refute that, so you resorted to a certain kind of mental gymnastic that happened to reoccur in your post. What am I talking about specifically?

Lets take a step back. From an objective point of view, you have not shown a single feat or statement of Asura fighting at lightspeed or anything remotely close.

Objectively Asura does not >FIGHT< at the speed you claim he does at any point in the >entire game<. He does not punch at that speed, jump at that speed, fly at that speed, is not stated to move that fast ever other than your instance with lasers

Not.

Once.

My problem with you using lasers as your argument is that the entertainment medium has everyone dodge lasers all the time, you can have all the perspective shots in the world but factually you have nothing else to support your case other than him dodging lasers. Moreso to the point is the undeniable fact that Asura is blatantly shown as fighting at speeds that Hulk himself could accomplish 99% of the time and I could quite literally spam the shit out of this thread with countless gifs to prove that. The only time Asura ever spams punches occurs in a short burst and those entire barrages have been shown on screen to pack less power than his biggest hits, ergo, would be utterly wasted on Hulk.

There are so many things wrong with this, at first I didn't know where to begin. For starters, the obvious reason no one argues Hulk at lightspeed is because he doesn't dodge light speed attacks consistently. Number two, there's actually zero proof that laser is lightspeed if your only evidence for it being that speed is a description of it being "Solar energy".

Because it sounds A LOT like you're trying to compare Vision's laser to a Solar Flare, which is faulty for several reasons, namely-

  • Solar flare's are powerful mass coronal ejections from the Sun, that typically carry around 1020+ joules of energy (sextillions)
  • They are imbued with magnetism and have a solar irradiance output drastically above what Vision dishes out
  • They can cross millions of miles in seconds

All of which Vision's don't have. (The third bullet point is crossing a large distance in a short amount of time which Vlitra's lasers did.) Simply adding a "solar" tag line doesn't mean shit in a medium where a character being consistent is something to rejoice over, not something to be expected. To top it all off, virtually all lasers are made out of light or a form of energy on the EM spectrum.

What the fu.... Right, I explicitly did not say solar flare, you literally just pulled that comparison out of your ass and my statement was actually supposed to be accompanied by this scan (I had it in my pm but the spoiler block was closed so it didn't paste)...

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As for having zero proof of it being lightspeed... Do you know what solar energy is?

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Source.

Solar energy is lightspeed, you learn this stuff in a science class or even from a quick google search... C'mon dude. Other than that is the fact that I was obviously joking. All lasers should theoretically be lightspeedbut even street levelers have no issue dodging them. Saying that, the burden on proof at this point is entirely on you to showcase Asura's 'lightspeed' combat showings because I'll reasert this now:

Avoiding lasers is done by everyone, it's not good enough, specially when the entire game contradicts your notion of how fast Asura is. You can repeat yourself, or you can give evidence. Choice is yours.

The consistency argument is vain on Asura, since he gets several amps and becomes progressively stronger as the game moves forward, and because he has zero anti-feats in each successive form to contradict his baseline speed. (In fact, in his Destructor form he becomes absurdly MFTL.)

At this point I don't even care about the consistency argument, I just want you to show me one feat of Asura fighting at lightspeed. In fact screw it I'll settle for hypersonic at this point, literally anything that shows him fighting that fast because you haven't shown a single feat like that yet. Even a punch, just a punch. Anything other than "mUh LazERZz".

All of Asura's boss fights are against people who are physically equal to him as well. Asura has literally never failed blitzed someone who was shown to be slower than him. Take Sergei for example, who found out the hard way, as Asura disemboweled him without a moments hesitation before he could react...

Even Wyzen—who you later tried to used as an anti-feat example—was handily outpaced multiple times...

Another example, and in this one he punches him down, face palms him, then ragdolls him with physical strength:

You're trying to squeeze correlation from Asura outspeeding people who are slow as balls into the argument that he could blitz Hulk. I have problems with that for two reasons...

  1. Not a single one of those showings is actually a blitz. Asura is just leaping and hitting Wyzen once in the first and manhandling him after hitting him in the second. Sergei just looks like he's too shocked to move. A blitz is repeatedly hitting someone at high speed which Asura doesn't do there.
  2. Sergei is utterly featless. The guy has one combat showing against fodder gohma IIRC but that's it. As for Wyzen, in his base form the only showings he actually has are getting one punched by Asura at the start of the game and getting beaten up again by Asura in their second fight. That's it.

I can unironically say that Hulk catching a bullet in his teeth in The Incredible Hulk #43 is a more impressive showing than anything there. He was so fast that he transformed and caught the bullet in his teeth as it hit Banner before it could so much as move a few millimeters from the collision point...

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Your showings just aren't good enough to prove that Asura will blitz Hulk.

At this point, I'm positive you've never actually played the game, and just watched YouTube videos in a last-minute bid to find any semblance of an anti-feat to lowball Asura's speed.

Your entire polemic regarding Asura vs Wyzen amounts to literally nothing credible that can be used to refute the fact that Asura will blitz Hulk. Especially since Asura was still capable of outpacing Wyzen and landing multiple hits on him at different points in time, and based on your OWN admission-

-in addition to the cut-scenes and gameplay we have BOTH posted, Asura is still portrayed to be much faster than Wyzen in [WEAKER FORMS THAN MANTRA]. Making my argument that Mantra Asura blitzes Hulk a simple fact, and the reality of how the encounter between them will play out.

I never once insinuated that Wyzen and Asura were peers in terms of speed, I pointed out that he hit him which would not happen if Asura is as fast as you claim. Wyzen is massively slower than Hulk is so I genuinely have no idea how Asura being faster makes him blitzing Hulk a 'simple fact' seeing as you haven't actually shown Asura really flat out blitzing anyone, let alone at the speeds you claim. I mean just for the sake of it the same Wyzen hit Asura again in mid air and had enough time to jump and sit on him...

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But wait let me guess. Wyzen is jumping and sitting down at lightspeed as well?

I'm at a complete loss for words.. there are bad arguments, and then there are arguments that erase credibility. This is one of the latter.

First of all that's Wrath Asura, the form after Beserker who's body was blackened by his own rage, and the form who took critical damage from the Brahmastra (so Wrath is effectively weaker than Beserker). Second, that clip literally in no way, shape or form debunks Asura's speed. Like you said he's fighting someone equal to him in stats, and this is a cinematic game so sequences like that are meant to show detail.

I will forgive you because it appears as if you're new to debating Asian media content, and the mechanics of video game animation are foreign to you. Otherwise it is unforgivable to insinuate that Asura isn't close to lightspeed because he didn't appear that fast when fighting someone equal to him in stats. Said insinuation which also happens to be an argument from incredulity, and betrays your lack of knowledge on animation in general (appearing fast =/= fast, and the inverse is also true).

Hell, this even applies to comics and manga. When previously established FTL characters are fighting each other, how often does the actual art depict them moving FTL? Never, because still images can only depict speed through panel flow and speed lines. You wouldn't know how fast a character is moving unless their speed is stated, a time frame is given or a distance is crossed under a situational time frame. This is all in all just a terrible argument from you. There are so many different ways I can bury it, but I've already spent more than 3 paragraphs and I don't feel like dropping an additional scan bomb when I think you get the point.

Saying Berseker was an honest mistake on my part, but my argument still holds weight because Wrath is still stronger than Six armed Vajra. I'm going to be really blunt here, I respect you as a viner and a debater Vulcan but this is an extremely shitty argument. Not only is it lazy, but you've utterly avoided my gripe with Asura's speed and tried to insult my knowledge to cover your back since you don't have a single feat of Asura fighting at high speeds. You are quite literally and unironically claiming that everyone Asura fights is also lightspeed all the time, based on the single showing of Asura avoding some Lasers, and that I can't use Asura >blatantly fighting slower< because of the animation.

Where is your evidence that Asura is fighting at lightspeed? Statement? ANYTHING THAT DOESN'T COME BACK TO AVOIDING LASERS. The fact of the matter is that you have nothing tangible to support your argument and have now been reduced to blaming the animation. Are they also talking at lightspeed then? Because characters talk all the time whilst throwing punches, in fact Yasha did it repeatedly when talking to Wrath Asura...

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And for anyone that hasn't heard Yasha's voice... It's slow. The above gif lasts four seconds, that's 3 punches thrown in four seconds by a Bloodlusted Asura stronger than the one you claimed was relativistic. We have Yasha's own speech as a gauge for the timeframe because he gets words out when Asura is mid bullrush, unless you think Yasha is talking at lightspeed? At which point I'd call you delusional. I could spam examples like this, but I'll try use another example since characters not fighting fast on screen isn't enough for you. When Asura fought Augus, Augus's sword had time to spin repeatedly, rise and begin to fall before either Asura (who was damaged) or Augus (as strong as six armed Asura) began to react to it...

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But wait let me guess, the sword is lightspeed as well? I could go on but I think you get my point...

I think what you meant to say is that in space he's flying which adds to maneuverability, and he usually doesn't abuse flight in battles because it's a beat em' action game that focuses on brawls. Not that he's magically faster.

Sure. Iet's see how fast Mantra Asura fights when he's flying around, fighting an equal and has ample room for manouverbality...

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Like previous examples, we actually have a relatively objective way to gauge the speed they're moving at because they're falling past the core of the moon which isn't particularly big at all. They clash 4 times in 5 seconds. And this is the version of Asura that you keep going on and on about.

Yeah and Hulk has never tanked dozens of planet+ vaporizing punches in a short time-frame and survived. So even with your incessant lowballing you haven't moved from square one.

Ugh... I'll get to this later.

Then what was it all for? You could've just skipped the speed section entirely and went straight to countering Asura's striking power. Conceding that Asura is a "good deal faster" than Hulk two formsbefore Mantra, and trying grasping for straws to make him look slow just seems pointless to me. Because it means that you know Hulk can't react to him worth of shit, and that Asura will never have any problem landing as many hits as you wants at any given point in their match.

Here's another question. How much faster is Mantra Asura to his other forms? You keep going on and on about this but you haven't displayed the disparity in speed... At all. This section is already much bigger than I wanted it to be but I wanted to cover all my bases. When it comes down to facts...

  • You don't have access to a single showing of Asura fighting anything close to lightspeed
  • You don't have access to Asura even throwing a punch that fast
  • You don't have access to a statement
  • You don't have access to anything other than avoding lasers
  • And to top it all off, Asura fights >SO MUCH SLOWER THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE GAME<

To be honest, I don't think speed is going to be an issue at all at this point in time, Specially because Hulk himself deals with speed just fine. Like when Gladiator tried to drag a weakened Hulk to space The Incredible Hulk Annual 1997...

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As much as I think Gladiator is a bum, one of the only things impressive about him is his travel speed. He's actually used the same tactic succesfully against both Supreme and Drax.

The Supreme instance actually occured in the exact same year as Hulk's did. The only element of Asura's speed I see playing a role are his bullrushes, which Hulk has dealt with for years from people with actual speed feats. Namely Sentry in World War Hulk #5 who smacked Bruce through several buildings who had just flew halfway across the country in a matter of seconds:

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Sentry attempted to do it again a few seconds later from an even shorter distance away, but this time Hulk was ready for it and gave him a haymaker to the face for his troubles...

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I see the same scenario playing out with Asura. Specially since Green Scar is tactically sound and Immortal Hulk may as well be a proffesional at getting to people's heads, something Asura is explictly vulnerable to because he lets his emotions get the better of him all the time.

Asura's strength vs Hulk's

Bro what?? Breathe dude. He's simply closing the distance between himself and his opponent....

Are you going to try to use the fact that Asura was flying toward someone to smack them to diminish the feat? This is not like when Superman accelerated to top speed to bust a moon with a bullrush. Asura was far away from Vlitra, so all he did was dash towards him to close the distance and deliver a strike... this is a clear-cut rudimentary striking feat that you're trying to debunk by mentioning meteors.

Additionally, there's no meteor that can be the size of Asura (human sized/few meters) and have enough power to KO a large continent sized mound of sentient rock. So Asura still completed the feat due to superhuman strength, even if you want to make yourself believe the BS free fall/meteor analogy.

I'm using the fact that he is blatantly, objectively and undeniably in freefall at high speeds before he delivers the punch and is moving at those speeds up until the punch connects - It's undisputably different to standing still and throwing a punch and it's in the same vein as Hulk being in freefall from space and hitting Starbrand hard enough to briefly stun him in Avengers #8...

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This was the same guy who said he barely felt hits from Thor. Obviously Asura subdued Viltra due to his own power as well, but moving at such speeds amps striking power and is not the same as standing still and punching someone.

Because those dozens of punches served the purpose of filling up Asura's Burst gauge. And they also overpowered the force of Wyzen pressing down on him. If you had actually ever played the game (hell, even if you were paying attention when you were watching) you would have known this and I wouldn't need to explain what Burst is.

Burst Mode is a gameplay function where Asura delivers one powerful attack (or a combination of powerful attacks) after his Burst meter/gauge fills up. This has happened in ever single one of his fights.

You don't need to explain what burst is, it's just a gameplay mechanic to represent Asura unleashing his best hits for a short period of time. The idea that the hits merely served to power up the burst gauge is asinine. You're falling back on a gameplay mechanic to cover up those dozens upon dozens of punches that did nothing.

>Asura was hitting Wyzen so furiously that his own arms broke<, something that you've just ignored. Back to a point in my original post, you've basically conceeded here that Asura hitting at high speeds is equivalent to trading striking power for speed because a single, uber charged attack did more than dozens. The sad thing about this debate is that this is the best feat you've shown for Asura and it's not enough to even make Hulk react to it. You keep hammering on about Mantra Asura but you haven't shown him do anything.

What Asura did against Wyzen's finger was unleash a flurry of regular punches that caused NO VISIBLE DAMAGE to Wyzen, but filled up his burst gauge upon which he released one super powerful punch that vaporized him. You can clearly tell that it was the Burst punch that did Wyzen in. Because it was after several on screen prompts that tell you to clench your fist, and once you deliver the punch, Wyzen's fingertip turns molten.

Cool. So Six Armed Asura needs dozens of punches to charge himself up enough to deliver his most powerful blow, lose all his arms in the process and pass out, just to deliver an attack that won't even make Hulk flinch. Nice.

How convenient it is for you to cut the video off seconds before Asura gets up, and—without arms—fights Yasha in a harrowing battle. Someone who is his PHYSICAL EQUAL.

No, how convenient for YOU to make it seem like Asura got up straight away, when in reality he was unconsious for an unknown period of time, and was still down for another 20 seconds of Yasha just staring at him...

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In fact, what the hell are you even talking about? They didn't have a harrowing battle, Asura was so weakened that Yasha basically mollywhopped him with zero effort, Asura couldn't even hurt him with his best hits (IIRC Yasha was only even moved by Asura's final headbutt).

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Like, it got to the point that Yasha stopped avoiding Asura's hits because he didn't even need to. It's worth bringing up that this blatantly shows that Asura can't sustain his maximum power output when he's been damaged, which hurts his chances against Hulk greatly because Bruce is the complete opposite - if anything, Hulk would just come back from injuries healed and stronger.

I consider WBH's planet busting feat to be in league with or slightly better than Vajra Asura's. That's just gonna be something we'll have to leave to the voters. The only reason I feel it doesn't matter here is because Mantra Asura is much stronger than the version who completed that feat, and because Asura is so much faster than Hulk that he'll never get tagged by his striking power, while Hulk in turn will be punched repeatedly with blows well above planet busting.

"Mantra Asura is much stronger"

"Doesn't matter because Mantra Asura"

"Nuh uh Mantra Asura".

Are you going to actually show Mantra Asura doing anything or are you just going to keep deflecting everything I say because Mantra Asura is unquantifably stronger?

Not even sure what you're trying to prove with Augus or why it matters.

It shows Asura struggling casually with an attack that isn't even continent level, in your previous post you literally claimed that Six armed Asura would be dishing out and tanking planet destroying punches willy nilly. To demonstrate why that matters lets use Incredible Hulk #98. Caiera charged the old power and unleashed a palm strike on Hulk's chest...

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Caeira was actually channeling the power of Sakaars rotation, and the force didn't hit Hulk's outer body, it attacked his insides as Pak explained in his novel...

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Hulk literally took a hit powered by the rotation of a Planet larger than Earth, directed into his chest, punctured his lungs and blew up his heart, and got back up with his bones already knitting themselves back together in seconds, whilst in a >weakened< and pre-core breach state. After this Hulk got his power back, got amped by anger, got amped by a bomb, and the version of Hulk we've gotten to is Green Scar.

World Breaker Hulk is when that Hulk goes super saiyan, and now he has Immortal Hulk's healing which is even better than Green Scar's. So, if I haven't said it enough, Asura is not hurting Hulk here.

Yes and every punch Asura throws here will have all his power in it.

This is unequivacly false. Asura doesn't have the power to just throw around his best hits all the time because they do things like knock his arms off and tend to come when he's extremely pissed off, not to mention his high speed punches never pack the same power that his charged punches do.

At the end of this entire section you haven't brought anything new to the table, you've hardly even countered anything I originally said... I haven't even gotten into Hulk's raw strength either which should be enough to tear Asura apart if he wanted to. It's entirely in character for him to attempt. He did it to Iron Man's Hulkbuster in Immortal Hulk #7...

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And he's brutal enough that he literally ate a demon's face in Defenders: The Best Defence #1 and this was before he knew that they could survive without physical bodies...

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To be honest, you don't really have a counter to this tactic because it avoids straight up blunt force impact and relies more on brute strength. Which Hulk has in spades. He's done shit like pull a planet back together that was larger than Earth whilst weakened and has straight up manhandled groups of heroes, who individually are massively stronger than Asura such as Hercules and Jane Thor (2). All in considerably weaker forms than what Asura is dealing with here.

Asura's durability

My apologies on that. Anyway, subduing Asura and Yasha together would be above planet level. And your Augus debunk that you continue repeating is hilarious because you're not taking into the fact that Augus' own strength and force contributed to Asura's arms breaking, and it wasn't simply the fact that he landed on Earth from the Moon.

Why would it be above planet level?? It didn't KO Asura, it just destroyed his arms. The fall from Orbit did the same thing and we clearly saw the impact that caused and it was nowhere near planet level. I mean Asura delivering a planet level hit to someone else left him armless and KOed, so god knows what would happen when someone like Hulk hits him.

Stop omitting context to lowball. Mantra Asura and Yasha used every fiber of their being in a combined attack that destroyed Vlitra, and Asura was as much exhausted then as we was when he destroyed Wyzen in Vajra form.

He had just been through a huge, taxing battle, so it's not like he was KO'd by the force of the blast alone... which would obviously not make sense to argue since he already bathed in a blast of similar magnitude.

So Asura can last maybe 15 minutes in a high intensity battle before he gets weakened enough that Hulk can oneshot him in his Mantra form? Surely this just debunks your own showing of Asura fighting for 500 years? (which isn't even canon, but at this point I think Asura needs all the feats he can get so I'm not bothered by it).

You do realize Hulk's not tagging him... right?

I don't even think you've shown Asura dodging a punch from someone than isn't Wyzen, who is probably slower than me.

All of this is completely useless because I told you from the getgo that Hulk has zero speed feats to suggest he could everland a blow on Asura... and you failed to disprove that miserably.

Lazy debating. Things like oneshotting Thor and bending Toomie in weaker forms is simply above what Asura can deal with and you're most likely aware of this. I've gone over Asura's speed so much and at this point i'm positive that you have nothing else to show. It's a shame, because coming into this I was admittedly apprehensive. Now I just think that Hulk beats Asura's face in.

Hulk's healing factor has always impressed me and admittedly was one of the few things I was wary of going into this battle. But I realized that Asura has one of the craziest stamina/endurance feats I've ever seen which allows me to believe he could tax Hulk's HF eventually.

In the DLC where he fought Akuma, Mantra Asura was capable of fighting Akuma at full power for 500 years straight without stopping.

I mean come on, look at how furiously they're trading blows back and forth, and spamming punches

Akuma is as fast as Asura mind you, not as slow as Hulk, which would make spamming dozens of punches = spamming thousands due to the speed difference.

And I think I've successfully proved that Mantra Asura should at the very least be above standard planet busting in terms of striking power (in league with Hulk), so.... the question remains. Can Hulk really heal from or even survive thousands of planet+ vaporizing punches for 500 years straight?

There are simply no feats that would allow him to survive this. And because he can not tag him to hit him, because thunderclaps are not powerful enough to damage someone who can ignore planet level blasts and planet level punches, Hulk simply is not winning this match.

Hulk doesn't need to have the feats that you're asking for because your own assessment here is incredibly flawed.

  • Asura's high speed punches pack less power than his best hits, he trades power for speed and vice versa. There's not a single shred of evidence in the entire game that he can bust out his strongest hits at high speed while maintaining the same level of strength behind them.
  • Asura just is not as fast as you claim he is, and whatever speed he does have Hulk is capable of reacting to.
  • This whole 500 years of fighting thing directly contradicts multiple examples of Asura getting gassed out in much shorter time frames, even in his Mantra form.

Lastly, Asura's striking power is not in league with Hulk. In the same dlc, Vajra Asura slammed Ryu into the moon from Earth at high speed whilst screaming and the impact is nowhere even close to Moon level...

This dlc isn't even canon so I'm not sure why you brought it up, but I'm not bothered because it doesn't help your case
This dlc isn't even canon so I'm not sure why you brought it up, but I'm not bothered because it doesn't help your case

This is Asura flat out bullrushing the Moon and he does nothing significant to it, Mantra Asura could be 10X stronger than this and it still would pale in comparison to Hulk busting a planet and cracking a moon casually without even touching either. In fact, one of the people getting vaporised by Hulk's collision is Armageddon himself as well as beings like Bi-Beast and Wendigo.

I already know the argument your going to use.

"B-but Mantra Asura"

The fact of the matter is that Mantra Asura is basically featless and there's hardly any evidence to suggest how much stronger he is than Vajra Asura. In fact, in the same dlc we see Mantra Asura go toe to toe with an equal (Akuma) and the biggest punch delivered in their entire fight blows out the centre of the Moon and the entire enagement leaves it kinda half busted-ish, and that simply pales in comparison to WBH. Even if speed were to somehow become an issue, I already showed a thunderclap from a weaker Hulk being enough to temporarily blast away the TOBA and millions of his monsters, who individually were giving a weakened Hulk and hollow A-Bomb trouble. But if that wasn't enough, Green Scar was capable of oneshotting Red Hulk in Hulk #24 when he decided to take the fight seriously...

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This is significant because at the time Rulk had his own power plus that of the Cosmic Hulk robot. The Cosmic Hulk robot had previously lolstomped both Red Hulk and A-Bomb at the same time on it's start up power level. If this isn't enough, then Green Scar in Incredible Hulks #634 thunderclapped so damn hard that he launched Fing Fang Foom into Umars barrier and shattered the thing...

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That barrier permanently kept out billions of mindless ones, the same barrier has caused Mjolnir to bounce off and Savage Hulk himself has failed to dent it in the past. Now consider that WBH is massively stronger than Green Scar, who accomplished this easily.

Conclusion

As I've already stated, I came into this with an open mind and didn't know much about Asura's capabilities. After doing my own research and seeing the feats/arguments you've presented, I'm convinced that Hulk can body him. Ultimately your argument relies on two key things:

  1. Asura being lightspeed
  2. Asura's punches each being planet busting +

You've utterly failed to prove either of these things.

- You haven't shown Asura fight at high speeds. not one showing. You have not presented a single feat displaying what you claim Asura will do. It all relies entirely on >lasers< as opposed to mountains of evidence on my side of the court.

- You've tried to dismiss valid counters as 'animation' which in my book is the lousiest argument you could have brought.

- You have not shown that Asura is capable of delivering multiple planet busting punches, at all. You have one feat which took countless blows and the biggest punch that Vajra Asura can deliver, to the extent of leaving him completely exhausted, armless and KOed, and that feat would not make Hulk flinch. Let alone get past his healing factor which makes him nigh unkillable.

- You keep claiming how much more powerful Mantra Asura is, but you factually have brought nothing to prove how big the disparity is other than him powering through a blast which broke Vajra Asura's arms (which has been done by less than moon level output multiple times). Even worse is the fact that by your own admission, a fight that lasted 10 minutes at most left Mantra Asura completely exhausted due to dishing out his best hits, weakening him to the point that an explosion that wasn't even planet level could KO him, ergo, Hulk could literally slap and oneshot him at that point.

On the flip side, Hulk's advantages are abundantly clear:

  1. He is flat out more durable by a considerable margin. As in the absolute best feat that you have would not hurt him.
  2. His healing factor means that you basically have no way to beat him because you can hardly even hurt him in the first place.
  3. He hits allot harder, casually.
  4. He has the reactions to deal with what speed Asura actually has and his thunderclaps can help if it somehow becomes too much.
  5. His raw strength can bypass Asura's blunt force resistance entirely - he could genuinely pull Asura's arms off because the disparity is that big.

Long story short, this is Hulk's fight to lose in my opinion. Asura is nowhere near enough to deal with Bruce at his best and just lacks the physicals to pose a siginificant problem.

Balls in your court now. @higherpower