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#1 Edited by HigherPower (12399 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a little deviation from both a regular CaV and a tourney match so I'll give some background to the unaccustomed. After a 3 stage voting process, 10 users were selected to become All Stars. 2 of those 10 were Team Captains and they each chose 4 people to be on their team. The All Star debate will consist of 5 separate 1v1 CaV matches, and whatever team takes home 3/5 will be crowned the victor.

Without further ado.

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Restrictions

  • Both Striking and Lifting strength should be planet level.
  • Combat and Reaction speed should be FTL. So being able to react and fight within nanoseconds.
  • Durability should also be planet level.
  • Ranged attacks or any other DC based attacks should be Planet Busting. It can be casual but no more.
  • Telekinesis follows the lifting strength limit
  • Telepathy can planet level in range and scope.
  • Clones are limited to 5
  • Summons are limited to a 100 and no more powerful than New 52 Aquaman

Banned stuff

  • Reality Warping.
  • Time Manipulation.
  • Probability Manipulation
  • Power Copying/stealing.
  • Speed Steal
  • Other hax will also be dealt on case by case basis. But any crazy one shot abilities won't be allowed.

Battle info

  • Composite Nate
  • In-character but determined to win
  • Combatants at their strongest
  • Fight to KO/incap/death
  • No prep, random encounter
  • Standard gear and abilities
  • Start 100m apart
  • Planet is indestructible

Location

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Voters:

  • Please refrain from posting your opinion on the match until it's done.
  • Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
  • Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better arguments.
  • When giving your vote, give an explanation on why you think the person won
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#3 Posted by deactivated-5c917f846ef0b (1264 posts) - - Show Bio

Rip Kev

T4v

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#4 Posted by FaradaySloth (10742 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and TAEP

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#5 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3913 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#6 Posted by Supermanthor (21756 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#7 Posted by Amcu (17070 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after every post.

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#8 Posted by TheKinfing (11881 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't MI going against Veshark?

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#9 Edited by DiarrheaRegatta (6003 posts) - - Show Bio

@thekinfing said:

Wasn't MI going against Veshark?

From what I've been told, Shark's immensely busy IRL right now and doesn't have time for this.

Kev was one of the replacements in waiting, I guess.

Also Tag for every post, obviously.

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#10 Posted by blackpantherisb (7340 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#11 Posted by vsw (2933 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v

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#12 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14715 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: I'll reply sometime this week so it's up to you.

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#14 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (12148 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#15 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14715 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: Keep in mind I'm using a composite Nate.

Character Intro: X-Man

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So what does a composite Nate entail for me it would be the body of Shaman X-Man while benefiting from the amp that the life seed gives him. Considering we know for a fact he is stronger currently than his previous version Nate will also have those feats as well.

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So how powerful is current X-Man as he likes to be called now? Well from everything we know more powerful than Legion in most respects as even he didn't know how to stop him. All you need to know about Legion is that he's a reality warper with a split personality each of them containing powers. As you can see from the scan his most notable feat is creating the Age of Apocalypse which in turn created X-Man.

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But wait there's more when Legion finally confronts Nate he in prisons Nate within his mind (for about five minutes) until Nate realizes where he actually is. While Legion is confident in his ability to permanently in prison Nate the fight over that last but for only a page in which Nate takes over Legion's mind.

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Now don't misunderstand my position I don't think Nate is a reality warper, although that may be the case as the story unfolds. However I do think his telepathy is strong enough to trump a telepathic reality warper in his own mind. Which leads me to my next section.

Life Seed X-Man Telepathy

Aside from taking control of Legion which is Nate's most impressive feat to date (subject to change) he has other telepathic feats.

While subjugating Legion Nate has Magneto, Strom, Omega Red and Blob controlling them as his horsemen an amping them. On top of that he's keeping Pixie from teleporting.

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Before that Nate projected his thoughts into every mind into everymind on earth the most notable ones would be telepaths like Jean and Psylocke. The context I can add to this makes this feat even better as Nate did this while depowering Apocalypse and Kitty. Then Jeans goes on to state She doesn't think Xavier could do this at his most powerful. Although we've known for a while Nate is more powerful than Xavier.

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Now on to Nate's other Powers starting with....

Telekinesis

While the Life Seed hasn't give anything in destructive feats we haven't seen before Nate has shown to be just as strong with it as his previous versions.

After listening to Apocalypse Nate casually destroys holy sites across the planet with a thought.

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Nate is strong enough to blast the X-Men with his TK then restrain them.

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TK strong enough to tank a continuous blast from the combined might of the X-Men

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While it's not actually confirmed what he did here I see it as a TK blast that disintegrated the X-Men.

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Shaman X-Man's Energy Form

Later on in Nate's career he became energy but it was shown long before that as his last mutation.

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Later Nate learns how to full control this state from his sacrifice to save the earth.

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Nate reforms just as Beast predicts.

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Nate's energy form is intangible to physical harm.

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I'm going to cut this post short as I've posted a good number of feats. Also I think it's best you wait until your post before I go through with a strat.

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#16 Posted by Rac95 (5122 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP please

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#17 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio

Genis-Vell

So your status as gods...is determined by worshippers? I mean, the prayer thing is fun for ego-stoking...but claiming your entire status is defined by others? That's pathetic
So your status as gods...is determined by worshippers? I mean, the prayer thing is fun for ego-stoking...but claiming your entire status is defined by others? That's pathetic

An Introduction to Genis-Vell

Bio

Genis's life was um, interesting to say the least. After his father, the great hero Mar-vell, died to Cancer, his mother got all emo and made him in a test tube on TItan. He was artificially aged so that none of his father's enemies could kill him and given fake memories of his childhood. Genis thought his father was Eros until Ronan tried to take him back to the Kree empire as the rightful son of Mar-vell. Genis took up the name of Legacy to become a hero, however when Surfer went to check up on his heroing he found Genis was a drunk womanizer who really wasn't much of a hero. However, with Surfer's training Legacy slowly became more and more of a hero until the Kree tricked him into blowing up a Shi'ar outpost, which affected him deeply with guilt and feeling unworthy of his father. Due to this, Legacy eventually took up the name Captain Marvel, gained cosmic awareness and found himself bonded to Rick Jones. Later, Captain Marvel gave fully into Cosmic awareness, destroyed the multiverse, rebuilt it, and was going to destroy the universe by accident but a Captain America villain stopped him by kinda sorta killing him.

Powers and Abilities

Kinda like all of them

  • Superhuman Physicals
  • Flight
  • Cosmic Awareness - Super future sight basically
  • Energy Manipulatino
  • Spacial Manipulation
  • Teleportation
  • Military training
  • Insanity
  • Auto Shields
  • Immortality
  • Power Sharing
  • Energy absorption
  • Dumping people places
  • Dimension Manipulation
  • Illusions
  • Time Manipualation
  • Probably more

Strength/Fights

Now, Genis is not really a physical fighter, in fact he very, very rarely engages in H2H, but that doesn't mean he's pretty damn powerful in a physical fight if need be. Take for instance New Thunderbolts #14 where he stalemates Sentry and the force/energy being put out was described as capable of "shredding worlds" and to make it even more impressive, it was stated that Genis(and Sentry) were holding back.

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Now, you may want to say this is hyperbole, however Genis and Sentry's clash was so powerful that they're battle in the microverse(around the size of atoms) was visible in the real world, so planet busting+ for a holding back Genis is a very reasonable assumption in terms of physicals and energy. Additionally, Genis did end up winning the exchange pretty easily. Along with that damage output, Genis was also tanking all of that energy and physicals with little issue.

Another fight I want to take note of is Genis's fight with Silver Surfer in Silver Surfer vol 3 #122. Firstly to address this fight, this took place while Genis was Legacy and quite a bit weaker(mostly lacking hax) and before he had cosmic awareness, which is very important to his fights. Basically this is a pretty meh Genis, yet he still does very well against a pissed off/serious Surfer in Surfer's own book.

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Some things to take note of is how with a blast, Genis managed to hit Surfer hard enough to knock him off his board, down into orbit, and stunning him badly, so pretty damn hard. Additionally, Genis tanked being blasted by Surfer out of orbit. Then later in the fight, Genis stalemated Surfer in H2H for over a page, until Surfer briefly overwhelmed him and had to resort to hax to put him down. Overall a very impressive showing considering Genis was nowhere near his best.

Durability

Along with the two instances above where Genis tanked some powerful stuff like energy capable of "shredding worlds" and the physical combat that was causing that, Genis also has an instance in Captain Marvel vol 4 #11 where he travels through a wormhole that's gravity field was compared to a black hole(though called inferior) and suffers no damage

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Additionally in Captain Marvel vol 3 #1 where he survived a small Nega Bomb explosion point blank(like while it was in his hands). For reference of how powerful this thing was, earlier it was stated that it would distort space and time from 1.7 light years away for over 100 years, which is bigger then the diameter of the entire solar system(which is a whole lot more then just double the distance of Sun to Pluto).

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You can see the explosion itself dwarfs the planets in the foreground and yet a weaker Genis survived it(we're not shown what condition he's in when he survives it or if he's Koed or not, but it's likely he wasn't in too bad condition because he spent the next week drinking his life away without medical consequence). This was in his legacy form as well, which as I mentioned is quite a bit weaker.

Speed

Unfortunately, Genis is not the fastest, he makes up for that elsewhere, but he shouldn't be completely left behind. Firstly, Genis has autoshields that are up like all the time in a fight, Take for one instance when he was ambushed by Monica Rambeau in Avengers Unplugged #5

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You can tell he's pretty weak here, I mean he gets suffocated. Additionally later on in the same issue, Genis weaves through Monica's energy blasts easily, which move at LS speeds.

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This should be comfortably LS+ in reaction and skillfully flying around. There's also an instance from Captain Marvel vol 4 #4 where Genis fights Drax from way out in space, pretty close to a star, down into a planet in a couple of seconds. This should put Genis comfortably at FTL combat speed.

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Now I know that doesn't sound too fast, but coupled with his auto shields and some stuff I'll get to in the hax section, as well as cosmic awareness will bridge any gap that might be present.

Energy

So I already showed the collision with Sentry where their energy was visible in the real world from the microverse, which is pretty damn impressive, but furthermore, in Captain Marvel vol 3 #1 Genis hits with enough force to fry an atmosphere.

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There's also this instance from Captain Marvel vol 4 #34 where Genis shoots Magus at FTL speeds way into space and past the Kree moon.

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Additionally, Genis can use energy defensively to make shields. Take for instance Captain Marvel vol 4 #17 where Genis makes a shield capable of keeping all of Thanos(a powerful teambuster) and Thor(a solid high tier)'s energy concentrated around one person, making their attack way more powerful, meaning that Genis can make shields capable of defending from Nate's energy

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Hax

Now this is where Genis gets really crazy. He's got all kinds of OP hax that's gonna be incredibly hard to stop. Firstly, Genis has the ability to make illusions and he can make an army of fake hims like he did in Captain Marvel vol 4 #21

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So you know, nice big distraction against Nate, helping Genis distract him and beat him up. Along with this, Genis has some insane almost like one-shot offensive hax moves, just one here in New Thunderbolts #11 he dissipates someone into literally nothing

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So there's one simple option to put down Nate. Another example would be from Captain Marvel vol 4 #14 where Genis traps someone in stasis between the negative zone and our reality.

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Between the two of these, it seems pretty likely that Genis can put down Nate in some way. And when it comes to Genis's hax, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Cosmic Awareness

Cosmic Awareness basically is Genis having a connection to the Universe and knowing literally everything in the universe, past, present, and future. This is obviously very important when it comes to fighting because Genis can see the outcome of every move. Even while not very trained in cosmic awareness and not fully given into it, it was shown Genis subconsciously used it to anticipate opponents next move as seen in Captain Marvel vol 4 #16

Additionally, when it gets more refined, we know Genis can usually see attacks coming, even surprise attacks as seen in New Thunderbolts #12, which would obviously help him while fighting Nate as he can predict what Nate is going to do, possibly before Nate even knows he will do it.

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Furthermore, Cosmic Awareness gives Genis full knowledge on people like in Captain Marvel vol 5 #2 like when he learned this entire guys life story instantly.

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So Genis can know basically everything about Nate instantly.

Counters

Telepathy

So how powerful is current X-Man as he likes to be called now? Well from everything we know more powerful than Legion in most respects as even he didn't know how to stop him. All you need to know about Legion is that he's a reality warper with a split personality each of them containing powers. As you can see from the scan his most notable feat is creating the Age of Apocalypse which in turn created X-Man.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Legion's power level extremely dependent on which personality is in control? Is there any reason to think that the version of Legion that Nate beat is at all the same as the one who created the Age of Apocalypse universe?

Now don't misunderstand my position I don't think Nate is a reality warper, although that may be the case as the story unfolds. However I do think his telepathy is strong enough to trump a telepathic reality warper in his own mind. Which leads me to my next section.

Which is exactly how powerful? I mean, 5 minutes is a long time for this battle, in that time Genis could just kinda warp Nate out of existance. Plus, Nate has to get through Cosmic Awareness without going insane. For instance when Genis exposed his full mind to the purple man, he drove Purple man insane.

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New Thunderbolts #12

Also, for what it's worth Genis can make a shield that blocks out telepathic scans and if Nate can't scan/lock onto Genis's brain, he probably can't control it either.

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Aside from taking control of Legion which is Nate's most impressive feat to date (subject to change) he has other telepathic feats.

In all honesty the other feats pale in comparison to the Legion one, so I don't really see the point in countering them.

Telekinesis

After listening to Apocalypse Nate casually destroys holy sites across the planet with a thought.

That's pretty meh in all honesty.

Nate is strong enough to blast the X-Men with his TK then restrain them.

The only person here really worth noting is Iceman and he's not unlocked so he's not as his crazy levels of power(which still pale in comparison to Genis)

TK strong enough to tank a continuous blast from the combined might of the X-Men

That's decent I suppose, but I don't see these X-men coming close to replicating Genis's energy projection feat against Sentry.

While it's not actually confirmed what he did here I see it as a TK blast that disintegrated the X-Men.

In all honesty this seems like reality warping to me, but sure TK. Either way, The Nega bands can help Genis pull himself back together from Molecules like in Captain Marvel vol 4 #16

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And this was before he gained a lot of experience manipulating energy.

Energy Form

Later on in Nate's career he became energy but it was shown long before that as his last mutation.

Well this is nice, luckily Genis is a great energy manipulator like when Genis contained Thor and Thanos's energy blasts so he could incap Nate's energy form by containing him that way.

Nate reforms just as Beast predicts.

Years after though, which makes the scan not relevant to combat

Nate's energy form is intangible to physical harm.

It's interesting that in this scan Nate admits that Ares can harm him due to his divine nature because in Captain Marvel vol 5 #7/8 Captain Marvel has an entire philosophical debate with King Thor about what makes him divine and not Genis and Thor doesn't really have a reason...

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I think Peter David makes it pretty clear throughout his run(and later in New Thunderbolts as well) that Genis is special, he's more then just a normal dude. So it's very well possible he can affect Nate's energy form in that way.

Initial Considerations

Pretty simply, Genis has some pretty crazy hax and versatility. His cosmic awareness will let him know what Nate is going to do and pull off a crazy piece of hax first, as well as stopping Nate from getting in his head. So the strategy is pretty simple, Genis uses cosmic awareness to get at least a glimpse of Nate's plan and then hax him out

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#18 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Supermanthor (21756 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag after every post

Good luck both of you

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#20 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10340 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please and nice work so far both of you.

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#21 Posted by emperorthanos- (16600 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
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#22 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14715 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg:

Opening Strategy

"Knowledge is power, but powerless if you got it and you do not acknowledge it."

I'll start this off by giving my perspective on Genis cosmic awareness which is going to be a major point in this debate

Genis' most powerful asset is his cosmic awareness which gives him virtually unlimited knowledge of the past present and future. But even something as Cosmic Awareness can be a weakness when taken to its extremes. For Genis that is ever present since it's hard for him to keep track of where exactly the future will converge with the present. As shown in his time as a Mad God and Photon.

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So even if Genis can see the past with complete clarity the present and the future can get jumbled among all the possible futures. Which means his Cosmic Awareness isn't infallible and it also can be exploited.

Now I will admit Nate's ability to over power Genis in a direct fight is next to nil. However lucky for me Nate's current M.O. is subjugation by whatever means necessary. So there aren't any morals restrictions he would place on himself currently as he would during his days as a Shaman.

Nate's current use of telepathy means he'll opt to fight this battle without the need to overpower Genis. His telepathy goes beyond simple mind control and allows him to manipulate the chemistry of the brain. Which his how Nate will approach this he'll know from the start how Genis mind is working from his brain chemistry and disable it. He has this approach to produce a variety of effects. Such as dampening curiosity connections in a characters forebrain, stopping a riot by cutting off hormones from the pituitary gland and above all else controlling others powers.

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Note the only reason I posted scans from Pre Shaman, and Shaman Nate is to show how much easier it is for him currently to depower others compared to those versions. As a Kid Nate has to navigate the mind to know what strings to pull and what buttons to push. While a shaman he targeted specific connections in the brain which required an extreme level of knowledge and some level of concentration. With the life seed he just does it and based on statements has done so with a word, meaning it's like second nature.

Which further emphasises how impressive Nate's feat against Legion is. It took the combined efforts of Legion, Dr Nemesis stepford cuckoos to order and stabilize his personalities. And even then his mind just created another personality like Moira who could over power Xavier while in Legions mind. Moira is a reality warping personality that created Age of X so legion can be a hero and she's still apart of his mind.

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Now you may think Nate didn't control all of Legions personalities and that's where you would be wrong. it's shown Legion had all his personalities backing him up when he confronted Nate. But that doesn't matter much when it has been shown Legion has reality warping under his own power.

Erases Elder gods from existence.

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Erases himself from existence and returns.

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So if this debate is a contest of will there is no higher level than someone who can will reality as they see fit. That someone also being a telepath that was controlled by Nate. Which means Nate has reached a level of telepathy very few are capable of resisting without outright feats at this level.

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#24 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9635 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Moderator
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#25 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10340 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#26 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters

Knowledge is Power

I could not agree more with this sentiment, after all, Genis is the greatest source of knowledge in the universe. However, you say that his cosmic awareness has failed him, but let's break down these instances as quite frankly, all of them are very flawed instances to say Genis's use of cosmic awareness is poor.

The first image posted of Genis flying away from the lady, Genis knew exactly what he was doing, he just didn't care that the lady was going to get shot, no problem with his cosmic awareness in that scan.

The second scan, it explicitly states that Purple Man got him to turn off his cosmic awareness, thus not being active and not at all a failure of the cosmic awareness.

In the 3rd scan, he literally predicted the attack however he himself says

it's still all mixed up

Now for those who don't know, at this point in time Genis had lost his memories(IIRC), had just been mixed up by purple man, and was going to die and destroy the universe soon, it's not exactly a normal situation and it's pretty obvious that's what Genis was saying. Hell, I'd even argue that his Photon form simply did not have the ability to control Cosmic Awareness like his Insane version did.

Now I will admit Nate's ability to over power Genis in a direct fight is next to nil

Excellent, this basically means you've admitted that TP or TK is your only real way to victor while Genis can win in a direct fight(which is quite simple) or all of the wide variety of hax he's already shown and you have not yet countered.

His telepathy goes beyond simple mind control and allows him to manipulate the chemistry of the brain.

Here's the problem with this, I've already gone over Genis's link to the universe and how Nate will get overwhelmed if he tries to TP him, but for manipulating chemistry, as we learn in Captain Marvel vol 5 #5, Genis is an energy being, I'm not sure he even has brain chemistry to manipulate

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Furthermore, Genis has actually manipulated brains himself on a few occasions, so I doubt you can do it to him. For instance in Captain Marvel #15 we see him do it to Rick through their connection to make him kill himself.

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He's also shown that he can do this to other bodies as well as seen in Captain Marvel vol 5 #21, now to be fair in this instance he did have an amp, however it only amped his skill with his powers, not his powers themselves and since he's experienced doing this here and he's done it before to rick, there's no reason he cannot replicate it.

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Which further emphasises how impressive Nate's feat against Legion is. It took the combined efforts of Legion, Dr Nemesis stepford cuckoos to order and stabilize his personalities. And even then his mind just created another personality like Moira who could over power Xavier while in Legions mind. Moira is a reality warping personality that created Age of X so legion can be a hero and she's still apart of his mind.

Focusing on this ignores the fact that when Nate tries to get into Genis's mind, he's going to be attached to the entire universe, Nate can't TP the universe and TPing someone who operates on a universal scale like Legion isn't comparable since Genis's mind is literally linked to the universe.

Erases Elder gods from existence.

Having the power to reality warp has nothing to do with how much it takes to TP you.

So if this debate is a contest of will there is no higher level than someone who can will reality as they see fit. That someone also being a telepath that was controlled by Nate. Which means Nate has reached a level of telepathy very few are capable of resisting without outright feats at this level.

To be honest, I think this is kind of a bullshit argument. You're basically saying that as long as you can reality warp, you're on a higher level then anyone else in TP ability. But like, Surfer can reality warp, does that mean TPing him is more impressive then say TPing Despero who can't? Sure reality warping usually equates to some level of power, but they aren't always related. And even if you want to go this route, I'd put Cosmic Awareness easily up there with reality warping in terms of this kind of thing

Conclusion

Genis still packs plenty of one-shot hax that he can use and counters to basically all of Nates(which is really just TP), coupled with his advantage in physicals and actual fighting, I don't see him losing.

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#28 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (12148 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Supermanthor (21756 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Comic_Crusader (102 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#31 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14715 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg:

Rebuttal I

I could not agree more with this sentiment, after all, Genis is the greatest source of knowledge in the universe. However, you say that his cosmic awareness has failed him, but let's break down these instances as quite frankly, all of them are very flawed instances to say Genis's use of cosmic awareness is poor.

I never stated Genis use of Cosmic Awareness is poor I stated it isn't infallible you know this I and I know this. Which I assume is why you went with a different word choice when summing up my statement. Because poor means insufficient while infallible the in ability to make an error. There is no way you can prove Genis has never made an error even with his cosmic awareness.

The first image posted of Genis flying away from the lady, Genis knew exactly what he was doing, he just didn't care that the lady was going to get shot, no problem with his cosmic awareness in that scan.

The scan is only there to show Genis doesn't know for a fact the outcome of every event. He does however know the most likely due to multiple futures remaining constant with little deviation from each other. So what I'm getting at is the fact it's easier to predict someone's decision than choose the best out come to win a fight.

The who reason Genis went crazy is because when faced with multiple decision he had no way to choose the one that would save the most lives. Which is proof Genis can't possibly choose the correct outcome even when he has the multiverse to choose from.

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The second scan, it explicitly states that Purple Man got him to turn off his cosmic awareness, thus not being active and not at all a failure of the cosmic awareness.

This proves two things actually Genis mind can be affected by his biology (that still exists) and his connect to his cosmic awareness can be cut. On top of all that his cosmic awareness was disabled by Purple Man's pheromone a power not nearly as developed as Nate's telepathy.

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In the 3rd scan, he literally predicted the attack however he himself says

This statements shows you aren't trying to refute the points I'm making you're just trying to prove why it's not a low showing. Which by the way I don't need these scans to prove why his cosmic awareness isn't infallible.

Anyway this scan is there to prove a statement Genis makes after he makes Purple Man catatonic. I posted it against above I think it's best if I quote it.

Past, present, future -- it all gets a little -- jumbled --- sometimes.

Which put simply means even when Genis can be sure of what's going to happen his mind is too fractured to state if it has happened, happening or is about to happen. That's not a mistake you can make against a telepath as skilled as Nate as he'll capitalize on it every time.

Now for those who don't know, at this point in time Genis had lost his memories(IIRC), had just been mixed up by purple man, and was going to die and destroy the universe soon, it's not exactly a normal situation and it's pretty obvious that's what Genis was saying. Hell, I'd even argue that his Photon form simply did not have the ability to control Cosmic Awareness like his Insane version did.

You are using Photons feats so everything related to his use of cosmic awareness is applicable. With that Photon is the strongest version of Genis by feats so it isn't as if I'm arguing against a weak version having difficult time using cosmic awareness. And I would like to see you push a point that states the opposite.

Excellent, this basically means you've admitted that TP or TK is your only real way to victor while Genis can win in a direct fight(which is quite simple) or all of the wide variety of hax he's already shown and you have not yet countered.

Excuse me I was pressed for time when writing my above post having dealt with being sick for these past two weeks. Not only that I don't counter character intros as every power a character has doesn't automatically factor into a debate. What I'm getting at is tell me the points you actually want to make preferably in a strategy and allow me to reply to those.

But since you brought it up again I don't mind responding.

Genis' illusions are simply a light show without having so much as a mind Nate can close his eyes and ignore them.

Dispersion would only affect Nate's energy form, which isn't required for him to operate his telepathy. Literally the first feat Nate preforms before achieving an energy form in Dark X-Men was mind controlling people while he tried to piece himself together.

I should note Nate isn't in top form considering he reassembling his mind having implanted a piece of it in every living thing on earth.

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Genis locking Nate in stasis wouldn't work as Nate can teleport between universes and his telepathy works across the multiverse.

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The point I'm trying to make is none of this hax effectively counters Nate's main point in winning in other words proves relevant to the debate.

Here's the problem with this, I've already gone over Genis's link to the universe and how Nate will get overwhelmed if he tries to TP him, but for manipulating chemistry, as we learn in Captain Marvel vol 5 #5, Genis is an energy being, I'm not sure he even has brain chemistry to manipulate

I would agree with you if this was pre and I would be hesitant to argue it with shaman Nate. However I'm arguing Life Seed Nate pulls this off with a thought. Nate doesn't need to read Genis mind to understand the structure of it nor is Genis mind to foreign to control. Also the fact that Purple Man can manipulate Genis means he has a brain.

Although I do want to take a closer look into the scan you posted because I don't completely agree with the point you're trying to make. First off Genis had just killed himself an issue before and went to energy heaven (as he put it). So that's why Mar-Vell was explaining that they were energy. Although the clear interpretation I got from it through Rick's narration is that Genis physical body was beyond needs he was familiar with.

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Furthermore, Genis has actually manipulated brains himself on a few occasions, so I doubt you can do it to him. For instance in Captain Marvel #15 we see him do it to Rick through their connection to make him kill himself.

This in no way refutes Nate's telepathy not working on Genis it just proves he has some level of telepathy. But let's look into the context of this feat. Rick and Genis share a telepathic link and through that telepathic link Genis has slowly been reordering his neurons to mind control him. Which proves one he need to set up a connection first before the mind control process can even take place. It also proves it isn't instant nor can the feat be used a resistance.

He's also shown that he can do this to other bodies as well as seen in Captain Marvel vol 5 #21, now to be fair in this instance he did have an amp, however it only amped his skill with his powers, not his powers themselves and since he's experienced doing this here and he's done it before to rick, there's no reason he cannot replicate it.

Genis showed them an illusion of him dominating them by manipulating the electrical synapses. In which case he convincing them he'd annihilate them in a fight. This is pseudo telepathy at best and hypnosis at worst. The only way you can argue this works in Genis favor is if you assume he's on Nate's level as a telepath.

Focusing on this ignores the fact that when Nate tries to get into Genis's mind, he's going to be attached to the entire universe, Nate can't TP the universe and TPing someone who operates on a universal scale like Legion isn't comparable since Genis's mind is literally linked to the universe.

I've shown Nate doesn't need to read Genis mind for him to control him. All Nate has to do is target the part of Genis brain he wants off and turn it off. What you are essentially arguing against is can Nate telepathically attack Genis on any level because from my point of view that decides this fight.

Having the power to reality warp has nothing to do with how much it takes to TP you.

Well this works in my favor as that means you won't use tiers or levels of power as a counterpoint against telepathy. And I get what you mean resistance is key. But I've already shown Moira (legion personality) defeat Xavier and I can show Legion resisting Xavier also.

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So not only is Legion a telepath I would I place his resistance above Genis in a fight. But Nate didn't only beat Legion in a telepathic battle he mind controlled him while Legion possessed the battlefield advantage of his own mind.

What I'm getting at is Genis should fair no better than Legion if Nate tried to shut down his mind.

To be honest, I think this is kind of a bullshit argument. You're basically saying that as long as you can reality warp, you're on a higher level then anyone else in TP ability.

No I was stating if this argument came to a battle of will there is no tier above reality warping in will power. Lucky you aren't arguing that but it doesn't help your case as the telepath Nate controlled is still a better telepath than Genis in every regard.

I don't see the need to address the rest since that should be clear enough.

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#33 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and TAEP.

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#35 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters

I never stated Genis use of Cosmic Awareness is poor I stated it isn't infallible you know this I and I know this. Which I assume is why you went with a different word choice when summing up my statement. Because poor means insufficient while infallible the in ability to make an error.

You said

For Genis that is ever present since it's hard for him to keep track of where exactly the future will converge with the present.

Which comes a lot closer to insufficient then infallible. You certainly seem to be moving the goal post away from this level of scrutiny on Cosmic Awareness, and then you said

There is no way you can prove Genis has never made an error even with his cosmic awareness.

This is shifting the burden of proof, you made the claim Genis's cosmic awareness is fallible, you have to prove it. I could say, there is no way you can prove Nate has never made an error with TP. During Genis's time as Mad God outside of contextual instances(which like Photon is all contextual instances), that he had a problem with Cosmic Awareness and before that he didn't have full access to it.

The scan is only there to show Genis doesn't know for a fact the outcome of every event. He does however know the most likely due to multiple futures remaining constant with little deviation from each other. So what I'm getting at is the fact it's easier to predict someone's decision than choose the best out come to win a fight.

If he only knew one future that wouldn't help him, of course there's multiple future possibilities, that's shown all the time in his book, but he can see the future possibilities(and the most likely ones with pretty high certainty) and manipulate events to reach a desirable future. That's what he's doing in this fight, seeing possible/likely futures and manipulating the fight to go in those favorable directions.

The who reason Genis went crazy is because when faced with multiple decision he had no way to choose the one that would save the most lives. Which is proof Genis can't possibly choose the correct outcome even when he has the multiverse to choose from.

Yeah, he went insane because his mind couldn't handle cosmic awareness. Now that he's insane his mind can handle it and he basically has no morals, win win.

This proves two things actually Genis mind can be affected by his biology (that still exists)

But Purple man affects the brain in a different way then Nate, he basically creates happiness to follow an order. Ionic beings are immune to Purple Man but they still have brain chemistry(pretty sure they're more susceptible to stuff like synapse manipulation). Different powers work in different ways.

On top of all that his cosmic awareness was disabled by Purple Man's pheromone a power not nearly as developed as Nate's telepathy.

But quite a bit different, Purple Man's powers =/= telepathy at all so there's no equivalence to draw upon, there's really no comparison at all. In fact, once Genis actually shows Purple Man his mind(so he wasn't really in there before), Purple Man goes insane.

Which put simply means even when Genis can be sure of what's going to happen his mind is too fractured to state if it has happened, happening or is about to happen. That's not a mistake you can make against a telepath as skilled as Nate as he'll capitalize on it every time.

So because there's a small chance that Genis will mess up, which we haven't seen in a non-contextual actual instance just a statement(so it must not happen a lot), Nate is going to capitalize on the multiple times he's going to do it in this fight? It's almost like you seem to think that despite Genis being able to see all the possible futures and predict them, Nate will have better control/knowledge on this fight. Which even if Genis's cosmic awareness worked decently 1/2 the time this wouldn't be true.

You are using Photons feats so everything related to his use of cosmic awareness is applicable. With that Photon is the strongest version of Genis by feats so it isn't as if I'm arguing against a weak version having difficult time using cosmic awareness. And I would like to see you push a point that states the opposite.

You're literally doing the same thing with Nate and say his energy form... Does Nate have his energy form now? If not can't use it. Photon literally had his memories stripped away thus had like a blindspot. It wasn't Photon's weakness, it was context.

Not only that I don't counter character intros as every power a character has doesn't automatically factor into a debate. What I'm getting at is tell me the points you actually want to make preferably in a strategy and allow me to reply to those.

I made it extremely clear that Genis's main method of victory was his hax, from the first post. In fact, I basically said it was my whole strategy which you basically ignored until your 3rd post.

Genis' illusions are simply a light show without having so much as a mind Nate can close his eyes and ignore them.

So now Nate is fighting blind, but also doesn't have the cosmic awareness to help him. Your entire strategy at this point banks on just Nate TPing, which is pretty risky considering the far more options Genis has, you yourself said Genis would wreck in any kind of actual combat.

Dispersion would only affect Nate's energy form, which isn't required for him to operate his telepathy. Literally the first feat Nate preforms before achieving an energy form in Dark X-Men was mind controlling people while he tried to piece himself together.

But does he have his energy form now? Because Life Seed Nate is the strongest version of Nate by feats so it isn't as if I'm arguing against a weak version having a difficult time using an Energy form.

Here's the other thing though, Genis didn't just separate this guy into pieces, as it said he dissipate the person into nothing and everything at the same time. he basically made him one with the universe, but in a bad way. Even something like atomic re-assembling wouldn't be the same as this.

Genis locking Nate in stasis wouldn't work as Nate can teleport between universes and his telepathy works across the multiverse.

He didn't BFR this person to the negative zone though, that'd be one thing. He trapped him in stasis between the two to where he couldn't move or act in either. It's like you're not even directly countering Genis's hax, just what you want his hax to be.

Although I do want to take a closer look into the scan you posted because I don't completely agree with the point you're trying to make. First off Genis had just killed himself an issue before and went to energy heaven (as he put it). So that's why Mar-Vell was explaining that they were energy.

  1. Why Mar-Vell is explaining he's energy doesn't really matter, he still explains he's made of energy
  2. Genis coming back from the dead with his energy body should support my claim as you know, brains can't come back from being dead, that's why brain dead is a thing.

Although the clear interpretation I got from it through Rick's narration is that Genis physical body was beyond needs he was familiar with.

Hmm whose advice should I take more of, Rick, who was constantly struggling to understand Genis's powers and when Genis was doing something or Mar-Vell, the dude who has Genis's powers but toned down. Hmmmm

This in no way refutes Nate's telepathy not working on Genis it just proves he has some level of telepathy.

Manipulating electrical synapses in the brain is not telepathy, it's energy manipulation, there's a clear difference.

Genis showed them an illusion of him dominating them by manipulating the electrical synapses. In which case he convincing them he'd annihilate them in a fight. This is pseudo telepathy at best and hypnosis at worst. The only way you can argue this works in Genis favor is if you assume he's on Nate's level as a telepath.

So Genis manipulated electrical synapses on an over planetary scale and tricked everyone into killing themselves, but it's just not impressive because it's an illusion... I'd like to see any just illusion do that.

I've shown Nate doesn't need to read Genis mind for him to control him. All Nate has to do is target the part of Genis brain he wants off and turn it off.

I mean, the energy body thing should refute that. Brains die when they are "turned off" and so when Genis died his brain would've been "turned off" but that didn't stop him.

What you are essentially arguing against is can Nate telepathically attack Genis on any level because from my point of view that decides this fight.

I guess it does kinda decide the fight because you really have no other argument, and this banks on Nate knowing not to go into Genis's brain where he gets shut down with Cosmic Awareness. Even if he can beat Genis, soooo much has to go exactly right for Nate and a lot has to go wrong for Genis considering that Genis has counters to basically everything Nate has while Nate can't say the same about Genis's stuff. And when you factor in that Cosmic Awareness is going to allow Genis to see Nate's moves coming and help him fight, do you really think Nate can pull everything off perfectly and Genis will make these mistakes?

Well this works in my favor as that means you won't use tiers or levels of power as a counterpoint against telepathy.

If you're referencing my argument that Genis's brain is linked to the universe so TPing it wouldn't work, that's not "tiers or power levels," that's genis's built in TP resistance essentially.

Summary

Basically, Nate has one way of winning TP. It's a question of whether Nate can even win that way, going into Genis's mind will probably drive him insane and you can't really shut down Genis's brain, so I'm not sure that would even work. Meanwhile, Genis has all of his hax to beat Nate, which still has not been properly addressed, he has his pure physicals/energy which Mr I conceded would be much better then Nate and to finish it off on top of all those advantages, he has cosmic awareness which will ensure the battle will go as much in his favor as possible. For Nate to win this battle, he would need something like Cosmic Awareness to raise his chances of perfection and lowering his chances of mistakes, instead the guy who already has the advantages has cosmic awareness, and I simply can't see him losing.

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#36 Posted by Supermanthor (21756 posts) - - Show Bio

Man kevi and Mr I doing spectacular job

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#37 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14715 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg:

Rebuttal II

Which comes a lot closer to insufficient then infallible. You certainly seem to be moving the goal post away from this level of scrutiny on Cosmic Awareness, and then you said

I know exactly what I stated and how carefully I crafted my word choices. "Which means his Cosmic Awareness isn't infallible and it also can be exploited."

Genis and his cosmic awareness is one and the same meaning his isn't infallible making his cosmic awareness just as far from it. Just look at it how is this even possible when Genis should have know minutes in advance that his death was a possibility. We know for a fact that his cosmic awareness was turn off no more than seconds before he would be killed.

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This brings us back to his statements to Atlas. "He made me turn off my cosmic awareness or else I would have seen your attack coming from a miles away." With this stated I think it's easy to conclude that Genis can't consider every possible future at a moments notice. It actually takes him time to decipher which futures are the most plausible and out of those which is the correct one. Remember he went mad trying to do exactly that.

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This is shifting the burden of proof, you made the claim Genis's cosmic awareness is fallible, you have to prove it. I could say, there is no way you can prove Nate has never made an error with TP. During Genis's time as Mad God outside of contextual instances(which like Photon is all contextual instances), that he had a problem with Cosmic Awareness and before that he didn't have full access to it.

I showed proof of all my statements my post is to be taken as a whole, every scan I posted above I've posted before. That's not hard to understand.

Also where is it stated he didn't have full access you cosmic awareness as Photon? I'm interested in seeing this. Even when Wanda warped reality to House of M Genis cosmic awareness kicked at full force. So it's surprising to see someone state he couldn't fully utilize it.

If he only knew one future that wouldn't help him, of course there's multiple future possibilities, that's shown all the time in his book, but he can see the future possibilities(and the most likely ones with pretty high certainty) and manipulate events to reach a desirable future. That's what he's doing in this fight, seeing possible/likely futures and manipulating the fight to go in those favorable directions

That's the very thing I'm arguing against, telepathy shuts all that down. We both not Nate and Genis will opt for their mental abilities to ensure they win the fight. However Nate is superior in that regard telepathy can shut off Genis cosmic awareness and the rest of his powers.

But Purple man affects the brain in a different way then Nate, he basically creates happiness to follow an order. Ionic beings are immune to Purple Man but they still have brain chemistry(pretty sure they're more susceptible to stuff like synapse manipulation). Different powers work in different ways.

I've shown every level of Nate's mind control and everything you've stated he can do, but lets go over this. Purple man doesn't change the state of mind he makes you do thing involuntarily while you are aware you don't want to do it. This is an incoherent explanation of why Purple Man could control Genis. First you argue Genis is an energy being so you're not sure if he has a brain, cool. But now you're sure ionic being still have brain chemistry and are susceptible synapse manipulation. Which means you are making my points for me.

Synapses are the path ways neurons send messages which are sent in the from of neurotransmitter (chemicals). This the basics I know of of brain chemistry (correct me if I'm wrong). Remember how showed Shaman Nate dampening a character from forming ideas in her forebrain? Well he would need to stop the synapses from transmitting those messages to form the thoughts. Then I showed Nate stopping the flow of hormones in the pituitary gland. At this point he would need to go as far to stop the productions of chemicals in the brain.

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But quite a bit different, Purple Man's powers =/= telepathy at all so there's no equivalence to draw upon, there's really no comparison at all. In fact, once Genis actually shows Purple Man his mind(so he wasn't really in there before), Purple Man goes insane.

I know what you're getting at and I'm not refuting that. So lets run down my points Nate's telepathy is superior to pheromones while producing a greater effect. Life seed and Shaman Nate's telepathy doesn't require him to enter the mind to control it. Shaman Nate thing was he needed to understand the nature of the brain which required focus depending on the difference in the brain and the effect he was going for. Meaning he can't control mutants humans and other creatures in the same way. Life seed Nate is different entirely and more powerful. It takes so little concentration to stop pixie from teleporting that Jean states they'll need a big distraction. It's pretty clear Nate isn't stopping her in the conventional way of entering her mind and making sure she doesn't think to do it or fighting for taking control of her powers as Jean would have know that very instance.

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So because there's a small chance that Genis will mess up, which we haven't seen in a non-contextual actual instance just a statement(so it must not happen a lot), Nate is going to capitalize on the multiple times he's going to do it in this fight? It's almost like you seem to think that despite Genis being able to see all the possible futures and predict them, Nate will have better control/knowledge on this fight. Which even if Genis's cosmic awareness worked decently 1/2 the time this wouldn't be true.

That's not the point I'm making, read my strategy again. The point I'm making is Nate interferes and shuts it all down from his cosmic awareness to his powers (purple man did it). Which is not a hard point to make since Genis lacks any level of resistance that would stop Nate. Despite all of Genis powers he can be depowered.

You're literally doing the same thing with Nate and say his energy form... Does Nate have his energy form now? If not can't use it. Photon literally had his memories stripped away thus had like a blindspot. It wasn't Photon's weakness, it was context.

Umm....

Battle info

  • Composite Nate

"So what does a composite Nate entail for me it would be the body of Shaman X-Man while benefiting from the amp that the life seed gives him. Considering we know for a fact he is stronger currently than his previous version Nate will also have those feats as well."

The only limit I remember for Photon's cosmic awareness is he couldn't see himself but that's because he was trying to see what changed him.

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Also don't remember seeing it stated his memories where stripped or tampered with only that his mind was fragmented. So if you could point that out to me that would be nice.

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I made it extremely clear that Genis's main method of victory was his hax, from the first post. In fact, I basically said it was my whole strategy which you basically ignored until your 3rd post.

Seems to me you were just listing off abilities, which is far to common used in place of an actually strategy. But looking back now you put it as one of your Initial Considerations and Conclusion. Which makes it and odd task for me since I don't reply to character introductions nine times out of ten. Also conclusions are restating points you have made in that very post. Which seems to me as an appeal to the reader and not a point that I need to reply to. Considering it would have been in the post I just responded to.

Excuse me if I caused any confusion, that is just new to me.

So now Nate is fighting blind, but also doesn't have the cosmic awareness to help him. Your entire strategy at this point banks on just Nate TPing, which is pretty risky considering the far more options Genis has, you yourself said Genis would wreck in any kind of actual combat.

No I'm stating Nate doesn't need to fight blind these holograms lack minds so fighting with his eyes open or closed won't matter. You should have known that.

Hey don't hate the player hate the game. If Nate walks up slowly and down smash for the win every time it's still a win. So let's see your counter points.

Also no I didn't I stated "Nate's ability to over power Genis in a direct fight is next to nil" Where I'm from words matter. And I only stated that because Nate lacks destructive capacity feats as he always has. Which is why I do what works not what is expected.

But does he have his energy form now? Because Life Seed Nate is the strongest version of Nate by feats so it isn't as if I'm arguing against a weak version having a difficult time using an Energy form.

Addressed

Here's the other thing though, Genis didn't just separate this guy into pieces, as it said he dissipate the person into nothing and everything at the same time. he basically made him one with the universe, but in a bad way. Even something like atomic re-assembling wouldn't be the same as this.

Nate doesn't reassible as someone with that's made of matter would. He just pulls the energy back to gather that he's composed of back together. Which is why I've shown even without the energy form he's still capable of telepathy and I can show him making another body from other telepaths while he was weakened.

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Nate's body is similar to the way he creates physical physic projections from psionic energy.

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Here Peter thoughts of Gwen reached Nate's mind and he created a physical image using psionic energy.

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He didn't BFR this person to the negative zone though, that'd be one thing. He trapped him in stasis between the two to where he couldn't move or act in either. It's like you're not even directly countering Genis's hax, just what you want his hax to be.

I don't think you understand a character who can teleport across the multiverse can't be trapped between dimensions. That's what my scans were they're to refute. But not only that in no way does that stop telepathy which is the counter point you have yet to make.

Why Mar-Vell is explaining he's energy doesn't really matter, he still explains he's made of energy

Genis coming back from the dead with his energy body should support my claim as you know, brains can't come back from being dead, that's why brain dead is a thing.

I don't feel the need to press the first point I'll leave it up to interpretation I have given my thoughts. But I don't understand the second point. So I'll just make it known that Genis was killed by being punched to death in New Thunderbolts. Which means he retains some level of physicals.

Hmm whose advice should I take more of, Rick, who was constantly struggling to understand Genis's powers and when Genis was doing something or Mar-Vell, the dude who has Genis's powers but toned down. Hmmmm

Addressed.

Manipulating electrical synapses in the brain is not telepathy, it's energy manipulation, there's a clear difference.

My statement meant him and Rick having a mental link shows he has a low level of telepathy that is all.

So Genis manipulated electrical synapses on an over planetary scale and tricked everyone into killing themselves, but it's just not impressive because it's an illusion... I'd like to see any just illusion do that.

I don't know what challenge you are putting forth here as this won't work on Nate energy form and this isn't a contest Nate needs to compete in.

I mean, the energy body thing should refute that. Brains die when they are "turned off" and so when Genis died his brain would've been "turned off" but that didn't stop him.

If you are eluding to Genis just heals that will be a problem since no damage is being done and Nate would be shutting it off and keeping it off. Only the off chance your stating Nate would be killing Genis by shutting off parts of his brain allowing him to heal. That also doesn't seem plausible. You (as in humans) can live with half a brain someone with a healing factor would have no trouble staying alive with parts of their brain shut off. But even if Genis died Nate would win by incapacitation as he would not stop doing so.

I guess it does kinda decide the fight because you really have no other argument, and this banks on Nate knowing not to go into Genis's brain where he gets shut down with Cosmic Awareness. Even if he can beat Genis, soooo much has to go exactly right for Nate and a lot has to go wrong for Genis considering that Genis has counters to basically everything Nate has while Nate can't say the same about Genis's stuff. And when you factor in that Cosmic Awareness is going to allow Genis to see Nate's moves coming and help him fight, do you really think Nate can pull everything off perfectly and Genis will make these mistakes?

I never stated Nate would know not to go into Genis mind. I'm stating his powers are so far beyond that now that simply shutting off his powers wouldn't require that & I've shown evidence to support that. Nate's current MO is to do just that, which is something you would need to refute for you to have a 1% chance that Nate would incapacitate himself. You couldn't even refute Genis having resistance to nate so good luck with that.

Nothing has to go right for Nate since he's energy. Everything that would incapacitate or destroy his energy form wouldn't stop his telepathy plain and simple. With no counter to telepathy Genis is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

If you're referencing my argument that Genis's brain is linked to the universe so TPing it wouldn't work, that's not "tiers or power levels," that's genis's built in TP resistance essentially.

That's not resistance that's information overload. I can show you the difference in using AVX. Psylocke overloads herself getting into Matt's mind while Emma can't do anything to Thor's mind.

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This is only being used for an example so take what you feels about these instance out of it and try to understand the points I'm making.

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#38 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio

Final Counters

Genis and his cosmic awareness is one and the same meaning his isn't infallible making his cosmic awareness just as far from it. Just look at it how is this even possible when Genis should have know minutes in advance that his death was a possibility. We know for a fact that his cosmic awareness was turn off no more than seconds before he would be killed.

I think it's important that Purple Man didn't turn of Genis's cosmic awareness, he made him blind/ignore certain possibilities. That means he was already controlling Genis. Even if we assume Nate can do this the same way Purple Man can, he would have to take over Genis's Mind and mitigate it before Genis can make his move.

This brings us back to his statements to Atlas. "He made me turn off my cosmic awareness or else I would have seen your attack coming from a miles away." With this stated I think it's easy to conclude that Genis can't consider every possible future at a moments notice. It actually takes him time to decipher which futures are the most plausible and out of those which is the correct one. Remember he went mad trying to do exactly that.

Once he went mad he could handle it decently well, but even still "miles away" is easily enough for the purpose of our entire battle. You're talking about things that happen well into the future, but this is a short battle. At the start of the battle, Genis will pretty easily see the possibilities and the best scenarios for him.

Also where is it stated he didn't have full access you cosmic awareness as Photon? I'm interested in seeing this. Even when Wanda warped reality to House of M Genis cosmic awareness kicked at full force. So it's surprising to see someone state he couldn't fully utilize it.

You've posted the instance yourself of him being off his game when Hyperion attacked due to Purple Man's influence.

That's the very thing I'm arguing against, telepathy shuts all that down. We both not Nate and Genis will opt for their mental abilities to ensure they win the fight. However Nate is superior in that regard telepathy can shut off Genis cosmic awareness and the rest of his powers.

The rest of his powers? Where did you get that from? We've been arguing about cosmic awareness, I can get that at least, but there's been literally no reason to think he can shut down Genis's other powers. Plus, Genis can see all the futures basically instantly, he can take out Nate before he even tries to TP.

I've shown every level of Nate's mind control and everything you've stated he can do, but lets go over this. Purple man doesn't change the state of mind he makes you do thing involuntarily while you are aware you don't want to do it. This is an incoherent explanation of why Purple Man could control Genis. First you argue Genis is an energy being so you're not sure if he has a brain, cool. But now you're sure ionic being still have brain chemistry and are susceptible synapse manipulation. Which means you are making my points for me.

Synapses are the path ways neurons send messages which are sent in the from of neurotransmitter (chemicals). This the basics I know of of brain chemistry (correct me if I'm wrong). Remember how showed Shaman Nate dampening a character from forming ideas in her forebrain? Well he would need to stop the synapses from transmitting those messages to form the thoughts. Then I showed Nate stopping the flow of hormones in the pituitary gland. At this point he would need to go as far to stop the productions of chemicals in the brain.

Right so two very human brain things. But Purple man has been shown to work on a wide variety of things/people including Radioactive man in the same run. Purple Man and Nate affect the brain differently, you simply can't draw a comparison between the two.

I know what you're getting at and I'm not refuting that. So lets run down my points Nate's telepathy is superior to pheromones while producing a greater effect. Life seed and Shaman Nate's telepathy doesn't require him to enter the mind to control it. Shaman Nate thing was he needed to understand the nature of the brain which required focus depending on the difference in the brain and the effect he was going for. Meaning he can't control mutants humans and other creatures in the same way. Life seed Nate is different entirely and more powerful. It takes so little concentration to stop pixie from teleporting that Jean states they'll need a big distraction. It's pretty clear Nate isn't stopping her in the conventional way of entering her mind and making sure she doesn't think to do it or fighting for taking control of her powers as Jean would have know that very instance.

But you're not even talking about telepathy(that would get you in Genis's brain which as I've mentioned, Cosmic awareness would drive Nate insane), we're talking about electrical manipulation. But here's the thing, even if Nate's TP is superior to Purple man's control, that doesn't matter. TP can affect Genis(Though Nate's won't work due to cosmic awareness), I don't dispute that, I'm talking about manipulating the brain's chemistry, which is a whole different ball game and it isn't the same as Purple Man's.

That's not the point I'm making, read my strategy again. The point I'm making is Nate interferes and shuts it all down from his cosmic awareness to his powers (purple man did it). Which is not a hard point to make since Genis lacks any level of resistance that would stop Nate. Despite all of Genis powers he can be depowered.

Firstly, purple man didn't shut it down, he made it so that Genis would ignore certain aspects of it, secondly there's literally no indication to think that Genis can be depowered like this, none.

Also don't remember seeing it stated his memories where stripped or tampered with only that his mind was fragmented. So if you could point that out to me that would be nice.

Don't you think having your mind fragmented would negatively affect a power that strongly relies on mental fortitude.

Hey don't hate the player hate the game. If Nate walks up slowly and down smash for the win every time it's still a win. So let's see your counter points.

The problem is, you're relying on an extremely one-off strategy, that doesn't seem like Nate's most likely scenario(that'd be normal TP where he gets driven insane). Genis has far more paths to victory and a power that basically ensures he will use them.

Also no I didn't I stated "Nate's ability to over power Genis in a direct fight is next to nil" Where I'm from words matter. And I only stated that because Nate lacks destructive capacity feats as he always has. Which is why I do what works not what is expected.

So you don't think Genis would wreck in an actual fight despite the fact that you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary, even when you could've and expect me to just take it as a fact?

Nate doesn't reassible as someone with that's made of matter would. He just pulls the energy back to gather that he's composed of back together. Which is why I've shown even without the energy form he's still capable of telepathy and I can show him making another body from other telepaths while he was weakened.

This would seem to be even worse for Nate. Genis is literally an energy manipulator and you're saying Nate is just energy with no matter, that would seem to mean Genis can pull him apart even more easily. Plus even if he can pull himself back together, I'm pretty sure being torn apart would still count sa incap.

I don't think you understand a character who can teleport across the multiverse can't be trapped between dimensions. That's what my scans were they're to refute. But not only that in no way does that stop telepathy which is the counter point you have yet to make.

Sure it does. Once again, the dude wasn't sent to the negative zone, he was literally frozen split in two between the two dimensions and couldn't function. If you can't function you can't teleport(or TP) and that would be a win by incap.

I don't feel the need to press the first point I'll leave it up to interpretation I have given my thoughts. But I don't understand the second point. So I'll just make it known that Genis was killed by being punched to death in New Thunderbolts. Which means he retains some level of physicals.

Not my point. Nate's basically sole way of winning is manipulating Genis's brain chemistry and even in times where Genis's brain chemistry should've been shut down(death), it didn't, which would suggest that his brain chemistry isn't normal like the ones that Nate manipulate.

If you are eluding to Genis just heals that will be a problem since no damage is being done and Nate would be shutting it off and keeping it off. Only the off chance your stating Nate would be killing Genis by shutting off parts of his brain allowing him to heal. That also doesn't seem plausible. You (as in humans) can live with half a brain someone with a healing factor would have no trouble staying alive with parts of their brain shut off. But even if Genis died Nate would win by incapacitation as he would not stop doing so.

Basically what I said above.

Nothing has to go right for Nate since he's energy. Everything that would incapacitate or destroy his energy form wouldn't stop his telepathy plain and simple. With no counter to telepathy Genis is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Genis has a counter to telepathy, Cosmic Awareness. I think you're confusing telepathy, and manipulating brain chemistry, the 2nd of which is just energy manipulation and Genis has done brain chemistry manipulation before(on a planetary+ scale I might add, while Nate has done no such thing).

That's not resistance that's information overload. I can show you the difference in using AVX. Psylocke overloads herself getting into Matt's mind while Emma can't do anything to Thor's mind.

Yeah, it's great. This way, not only does it protect Genis from Nate, it also completely messes up Nate if he tries to go into Genis's mind.

Conclusion

Basically, Mr I was forced to put all his eggs into one basket, manipulating Genis's brain chemistry. Which already has multiple things making it doubtful whether it can work in the first place(Genis can do it himself which would suggest knowledge of it/how to stop it, especially when combined with cosmic awareness, Genis is an energy being, Genis hasn't had his brain chemistry shut down when it normally would), meanwhile Genis has options to affect Nate like just manipulating his energy to incap him, or split him between dimensions, or wait for Nate to go into Genis's mind and overload himself. I stand by what I said last post, for Nate to win, he needs to have cosmic awareness and be able to predict the future/make the exact right move, instead Genis has cosmic awareness and can do exactly that. If Nate makes any remote mistake, Genis will know and it's over. If Genis would make a mistake, cosmic awareness will let him know and he doesn't. That doesn't even get into the subconscious pre-cog and Genis has knowledge while Nate doesn't. I really just can't see Genis losing.

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#39 Posted by Kevd4wg (12804 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Edited by HigherPower (12399 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably won't vote.

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#42 Posted by deactivated-5d07416730d08 (2261 posts) - - Show Bio

First of all , both sides did good joob at representing their characters , though their arguments really didn't have any impact on me I still enjoyed reading through posts. All-in-all my votes goes to @kevd4wg due to the fact that @mr_ingenuity only focused about one thing over and over again. X-Man may have great and all-round telepathy but how is he gonna TP a guy capable of accessing all information in the universe? There's no argument to prove he won't get overwhelmed or at least Mr_I didn't make it clear. Kev also evidently indicated that Genis really doesn't have physiology at all which would prevent Nate from manipulating his brain chemisty and doing hax-like stuff. Furthermore , Mr_I admitted Nate can't give decent ammount of fight outside from TP battle and couldn't convince me about Nate cutting Genis from cosmic awareness or just straightly controlling him which was main point of his posts. Whole ''If Purple Man can affect him then why Nate can't'' argument was pretty meh to be honest when Purple Man has completely different powers and it's blatantly obvious that Genis's CW was only briefly mixed up. Don't get me wrong but composite X-Man has many assets other than TP you could've effectively used. Overall this was great CaV and definitely worth reading.

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#43 Posted by The_Red_Devil (5075 posts) - - Show Bio

I will vote within a day or two.

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#45 Edited by WorldofRuin6 (3913 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm gonna try to give it another read and vote today or tomorrow. Excellent job to both parties tho. This was a very enjoyable debate.

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#46 Posted by Rac95 (5122 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: @kevd4wg: After reading it again, I have to go with kevd4wg.

The biggest problem, was the fact that mr_ingenuity based his whole strategy/argument on two points, those points being Nate's TP and Genis showing against Purple Man.

First of all, basing a big part of an argument on one showing is always a bit iffy, especially since the instance itself wouldn't have been an insta-win for Nate. The fact that Mr_ingenuity basically delivered the fact that Nate is an energy being against a strong energy manipulator didn't helped him either.

All in all kevd4wg had a better allround presentation of his character, which gives him the win IMO

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#47 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10340 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome work guys! 2 of my favorite characters and it seems this all hinges on Purple man influencing Genis and whether Nate could replicate that... both of you did awesome I need to read through this a couple more times before my final vote.

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#48 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (10340 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, could either or both of you, on a separate note, explain how Purple Man influenced/affected Genis anyway? Did Killgrave just tell Genis not to use his cosmic awareness or turn it off and Genis listener, or was he susceptible to his powers or what? Thanks

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#49 Edited by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Smh.

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#50 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18619 posts) - - Show Bio

I can drop a vote on this sometime next week if needed: