• 84 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for higherpower
#1 Edited by HigherPower (12295 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a little deviation from both a regular CaV and a tourney match so I'll give some background to the unaccustomed. After a 3 stage voting process, 10 users were selected to become All Stars. 2 of those 10 were team Captains and they each chose 4 people to be on their team. The All Star debate will consist of 5 separate 1v1 CaV matches, and whatever team takes home 3/5 will be crowned the victor.

Without further ado.

No Caption Provided

Restrictions

  • Both Striking and Lifting strength should be planet level.
  • Combat and Reaction speed should be FTL. So being able to react and fight within nanoseconds.
  • Durability should also be planet level.
  • Ranged attacks or any other DC based attacks should be Planet Busting. It can be casual but no more.
  • Telekinesis follows the lifting strength limit
  • Telepathy can planet level in range and scope.
  • Clones are limited to 5
  • Summons are limited to a 100 and no more powerful than New 52 Aquaman

Banned stuff

  • Reality Warping.
  • Time Manipulation.
  • Probability Manipulation
  • Power Copying/stealing.
  • Speed Steal
  • Other hax will also be dealt on case by case basis. But any crazy one shot abilities won't be allowed.

Battle info

  • Composite Adam Warlock/Magus (no Soul Gem)
  • In-character but determined to win
  • Combatants at their strongest
  • Fight to KO/incap/death
  • No prep, random encounter
  • Standard gear and abilities
  • Start 100m apart
  • Planet is indestructible

Location

No Caption Provided

Voters:

  • Please refrain from posting your opinion on the match until it's done.
  • Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
  • Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better arguments.
  • When giving your vote, give an explanation on why you think the person won
Avatar image for darthjhawk
#3 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio

This will be fun.

Avatar image for hope_w
#4 Posted by Hope_w (2834 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's go! Finally a etrigan battle on these boards, however I'm interested to see how he's going to take warlock.

Avatar image for darth_nimrod
#5 Posted by Darth_Nimrod (2758 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for kevd4wg
#6 Posted by Kevd4wg (12750 posts) - - Show Bio

Yus! Me boi Warlock finally getting some respect TAEP

Online
Avatar image for chronicplane
#7 Posted by Chronicplane (9040 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.

Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
#8 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3868 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP and T4V.

Avatar image for majinblackheart
#9 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

Moderator
Avatar image for vsw
#10 Posted by vsw (2917 posts) - - Show Bio

@hope_w said:

Let's go! Finally an etrigan battle on these boards, however I'm interested to see how he's going to take warlock.

Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#11 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17674 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Online
Avatar image for faradaysloth
#12 Posted by FaradaySloth (9278 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and TAEP

Avatar image for darthjhawk
#13 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Well looks like this is it. I know we haven't interacted that much, but I look forward to this! Any desire to go first? Or should I start us off?

Avatar image for jacthripper
#14 Posted by Jacthripper (14967 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for supermanthor
#15 Edited by Supermanthor (18969 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: damn you are defending Adam all the best

All the best to you too chimeroid

Cool

T4V

Online
Avatar image for chimeroid
#16 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Well looks like this is it. I know we haven't interacted that much, but I look forward to this! Any desire to go first? Or should I start us off?

How about this deal, if i don't post in the next 15 hours, you go first :D

Also, i am defintiely looking forward to a good ol' 1v1 style debate. :)

Avatar image for the_red_viper
#17 Posted by the_red_viper (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

Moderator
Avatar image for sawed_off_it
#18 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13263 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for darthjhawk
#19 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for chimeroid
#20 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, i have something i want to admit, i know next to nothing about Adam Warlock (at least when it comes to various versions and minute details. So, my post will be a very basic intro into Etrigan's abilities and we will see how we can take it from there.

Etrigan

"Yarva Demonicus Etrigan,

Change, change, the form of man,

Free the prince, forever damned,

Free the might from fleshy mire,

Boil the blood in heart of fire,

Begone! Begone! O form of man,

Arise the demon... Etrigan

No Caption Provided

Physicals:

Strength and Speed:

My first will be short and sweet, your expectations it will meet, to be demise of every man, i'll show the strength of Etrigan:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Of this scan we all know, his strength is his greatest boon, with a single mighty blow, he sent Superman to the Moon.

And since motion i do need, on this link you'll see his speed.

Durability

As the hearts of his foes sank ; The Martian's attacks he did tank:

With his evil as sweet as nectar; He survived rays from the Spectre:

While listening to their woes, he took a Blast from all these foes.

MAGIC:

If an enemy he wants caught; He can change place with a thought

Blasting him with such a glee; Beelzebub he made flee

When hunting does he wants to die, Etrigan, of course, can fly

Even when they are alive and well, he can send his foes to hell

To defend from the power you wield, magic can create a shield

When an elder god caused him ire, he destroyed him with Hellfire

INTRO MESSAGE:

Let's just have a lot of fun with this debate. I am aware i didn't post much, but, after all, every fight has to start with at least a bit of strategic posturing. This should suffice for now.

Overall, i believe that Etrigan has the tools he needs to beat Warlock. But, it is up to you to prove me wrong. There is a thing i want to mention. I asked for a Boundless Blodless Etrigan, as opposed to the demon shackled by Jason Blood to avoid any enemies exploiting his weakness. I noticed it wasn't in the OP so i have to mention it here.

Avatar image for chimeroid
#21 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk: Ok, this opener is rather basic, but i believe it is what we need to get the ball going.

Avatar image for phillip33
#22 Posted by phillip33 (4125 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for darthjhawk
#23 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Awesome stuff man. I'll get to work on my end.

Avatar image for kevd4wg
#24 Posted by Kevd4wg (12750 posts) - - Show Bio

That was dope, though I do hope Etrigan has more so Darth really gotta break out the Warlock Wank

Online
Avatar image for nucleon
#25 Posted by Nucleon (3195 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: How come the verses are not alexandrines? Little bit disapointed here.

(Nah - not really)

Avatar image for darthjhawk
#26 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright @chimeroid lets do this! Hope this is as fun as I think it will be!

The Avatar of Life: Adam Warlock

No Caption Provided

"Everyone that has ever been in my position to wield infinite power has been undone by their choices. Perhaps I should not decide the outcome... maybe they should."

Character Rundown: The Avenging Hand of Light

As always I present my characters with a theme to accompany them. Warlock is no different.

WarlockThe Rundown
Real NameAdam Warlock/Adam Magus
Created ByStan Lee, Jack Kirby, & Roy Thomas
First AppearanceFantastic Four #66
Latest AppearanceInfinity Wars #6
Powers & Abilities
  • Superhuman Physical Characteristics
  • Master Energy & Soul Manipulator
  • Quantum Sorcerer
  • Avatar of Life
Current Status

Alive

Foreword: Who is Adam Warlock?

Since you mentioned you did not have much knowledge about Warlock, I figured I would add a quick bio and scans from his more recent appearances that detail his history. A copy from his wiki entry, but I think it should be enough to give you an idea of what he is about.

Originally, Adam Warlock was simply known as Him. He is an artificial being created by the hand of several mad scientists whom formed an elite scientific cadre, The Enclave, and whom based their work in a scientific complex called The Beehive. Adam Warlock was created by these men. He was formed in and born from a cocoon. The goal of his creators was to create the perfect human for their own gain. The Fantastic Four would eventually investigate the creation of Him, the Enclave escaped when the complex was set to self destruct. After Him was born, he immediately sensed how corrupt his creators were and promptly abandoned them to leave for space for the purpose of gathering his thoughts. However he doesn’t get far, as he is caught in an asteroid shower and is saved by the being known as Uatu, The Watcher, who sends him back to Earth.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
The History Of Adam Warlock
  • Source:Infinity Countdown: Adam Warlock

While performing his duties and enduring his trials upon Earth, Him discovers the existence of the Asgardian goddess Sif and decides he wants her to be his mate. This, of course, inspires the wrath of Thor, Asgrdian God of Thunder. Him and Thor battle and when, after a short time, it becomes apparent he cannot beat the Thunder God, Him passively escapes the confrontation/altercation by creating a cocoon around himself. Him later met the person that changed his life, The High Evolutionary, who gave him his now known name: Adam – for being the first of his kind, Warlock – because men would fear his power, and gave him the Soul Gem that would apparently change his life.

======================================================

Part One: Versatility Advantage

So with this section I'll be covering most of the main abilities Adam has shown throughout his various versions. The versions you will see referenced most are The Classic Starlin (80's-the OG Infinity Trilogy), The DnA/Starlin Era(Annihilation: Conquest- 2010's Thanos:Infinity Trilogy), and Modern Warlock.

As such I'll have access to a plethora of his showings that all culminated into this composite form. This first part details what I feel is Warlock's massive advantage in versatility. Something that I feel in combination with his physicality will net him the win. Anyway let us move on to those abilities.

=======================================================

Part Two: Physical Advantage

As far as speed while Adam doesn't exactly have the most quantifiable feats, he does scale in my opinion to the likes of Silver Surfer and Quasar. Like such instance here where Magus was able to match Quasar well in combat. His own reactions and speeds being a match for Wendell's own:

No Caption Provided
  • Source: The Thanos Imperative: Ignition

I find this pretty impressive considering that Quasar is a character who can react and take actions within ananosecond's timeframe or at the very least lightspeed. Not only does the Magus have the same abilities as Warlock, but Warlock himself has shown the capacity to contend with Quasar (Quasar Vol. 1 #38) and the likes of the Silver Surfer (Warlock/Surfer: Resurrection #4) in combat before. Which isn't bad considering that Warlock has also shown to be able to process lightspeed movement through space with his energy constructs, carrying himself Phylla-Vell, and Moondragon from a planet to its sun in the length of a conversation. (Annihilation: Conquest #1).

In terms of physical strength, Adam and Magus are no slouches here either. Adam Post-Infinity Watch was shown to be able to have the physical power to pummel Classic Drax:

No Caption Provided
  • Source: Warlock Vol.3 #1

Now while Drax was as physically strong as he when he was fully "dumb" Drax, he is still insanely durable, able to withstand the explosions of planets. Adam being able to do some significant damage, despite the battle being interrupted is extremely impressive. Especially when this isn't the only time he has been shown to have Drax's better in physical combat. (Silver Surfer Vol. 3 #47). I want to quickly point out, I am not saying Warlock is as strong as Drax, you can see that in both of their bouts. What's important is that he is powerful enough to contend and harm him. Backed up by the fact that Adam's Post Infinity Gauntlet body is more powerful than his previous, including the Magus counterparts of them. The original Magus was shown to be already a physical match for Pre-Resurrection Thanos. (Warlock Vol. 2 #3).

Finally moving on to durability and endurance I'll use a showing from Adam's latest Golden Form, that he achieved along with the Silver Surfer and Pym-Ultron:

No Caption Provided
  • Source: Infinity Countdown #4

We have the three tanking the explosion of Saiph, which was a result of Lifebringer Galactus consuming the world in order to stop Ultron's plan to conquer the universe. Not only was the planet destroyed, but there were dozens of rockets created by Ultron, launching from the plan that according to Adam himself could destroy a world(IC #4). While it isn't exactly clear whether these were bombs or the Ultron Virus (likely the latter), to still tank the waves and heat of this explosion is sufficiently impressive in my book; it is at least a sub-planet level feat. Which isn't bad considering the three tanked the blowback with hardly any strain.

I think that should suffice to give an idea of where I place Adam/Magus at in terms of physical ability . We have a character who operates at a planetary level along with at least lightspeed showings for speed. He should be more than a match for Etrigan in terms of physicality, perhaps even more. Of course I can't fully say for sure until we get deeper into this discussion. For now I'll leave it at this.

=======================================================

Part Three: Strategy & What's to Come.

Now that I've laid out the foundation, I can come back to this once I begin discussing Warlock's fighting style and where, when, and how he might utilize the methods in his arsenal. As it stands from what I know of Etrigan, Warlock should have an indisputable advantage in versatility. Depending on your argument, physicals and power may be up in the air, but I believe Warlock can employ his power in much more effective and numerous ways than Etrigan. Not only does Adam have the quantity, but also the quality to outmatch the demon.

  • Adam should be able to match him blow for blow and blast for blast.
  • I'll wait for sure to say so, but it seems unless Etrigan has resistance, Adam can drain him of his energy and magic. Crippling Etrigan and replenishing Adam. Or if applicable short him out like he did with Norrin and Wendell
  • Adam's fighting skill and energy manipulation skill (which I will get into next post) can afford him a leg up should they prove to be equals in raw power
  • Worst comes to worst, Adam/Magus can manipulate Etrigan's soul or transmute him to incapacitate/KO/kill him that way for the win.

Overall my opening argument is as follows: Warlock/Magus is showing to be superior in all areas. At least based off what has been shown thus far. He has the means to counter or negate just about everything Etrigan can do. In the physical ability Adam seems to have him outclassed based on showings with Drax, Thanos, and Quasar. Energy Manipulation the same, plus the added bonus of being able to consume, drain, and affect other beings, even down to the magical scale which seems to be more Etrigan's forte. Adam also seems to have the leg up in abilities that end the fight quickly. Anyway I'm done rambling for now. All said and done I think Warlock has this, though just in case you amp up your game, I have a few things in reserve. My next post will cover Martial Ability and a more in-depth look into Adam's dark reflection, Adam Magus.

To close out:

No Caption Provided

I'll leave the rest to you! Good Luck to us both! @chimeroid

Avatar image for darthjhawk
#27 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for darthjhawk
#28 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Quick side note, it was pointed out to me that I presented a couple scans out of context. I’ll leave them in for now as I don’t want to edit content I’ve already posted. Just wanted to let you know. I’m sure you’ll find them anyway.

Avatar image for faradaysloth
#29 Posted by FaradaySloth (9278 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome first post.

Avatar image for blackpantherisb
#30 Posted by blackpantherisb (7125 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

Avatar image for emperorthanos-
#31 Posted by emperorthanos- (16376 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
Avatar image for chimeroid
#32 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: That's awesome, i thought i had today only. I will still try to get some work on my post today. But, realistically, it will wait for the weekend.

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#33 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16503 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me.

Avatar image for darthjhawk
#34 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for emperorthanos-
#35 Posted by emperorthanos- (16376 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
Avatar image for higherpower
#36 Posted by HigherPower (12295 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: You have two days left; I recommend posting whatever it is you have right now, and simply editing it, adding content along the way. Just so I won't have to disqualify you through technicality.

Avatar image for chimeroid
#37 Edited by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for chimeroid
#38 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthjhawk:

ROUND 1

Now that i got some info on your character, it's time to talk about the "edges". Namely, to see who holds which advantage. And, this is where the fact that i am using Unbound Etrigan really comes into play.

Oh Blessed day,

Oh Blissful Treat,

Immortal Fools,

Gaze Upon Your Work and See,

Etrigan the Demon is Finally Free

Advantages

In your post, you made a bold claim that Warlock holds every single edge in this fight. Unfortunately for you that is far from being true.

Let's start with strength:

In the physical ability Adam seems to have him outclassed based on showings with Drax, Thanos, and Quasar.

That does seem rather impressive. Granted, that was Thanos before several amps, but still a good showing for an alternate future version of Warlock. But, is it enough to claim superiority?

I mean, i have given you Etrigan punching Superman to the Moon. It takes a lot of strength to do that. I mean, there are two options, either he sent Superman flying at near-lightspeed velocity so Superman couldn't react, or he knocked Superman out in one punch and Clark flew to the Moon slightly slower. Either way, it would take a baffling amount of physical force. Of course, that is not all.

When unbound, Etrigan also has the Strength needed to completely overpower Superman with 1 hand.

No Caption Provided

I definitely wouldn't say that Warlock has the strength advantage in this fight.

Tanking Advantage

There isn't a shred of doubt in my mind that Etrigan is vastly better at tanking stuff than Warlock. I mean, just from my opener (that is rather bare-bones basic) you can see feats that Adam would be hard-pressed to replicate. I mean, i have literally shown him survive an angry attack from the Spectre.

No Caption Provided

The best feat you have given us is Warlock taking an aftershock of an exploding planet. That is a good feat, for sure, but he was standing a fair bit away from the explosion. IN fact, he was tens of thousands of miles away and has only caught a bit of debris from that explosion. Sure, it is a good durability feat, but it isn't quite what you need for this tier of combat.

Moreover, even if Warlock manages to damage Etrigan's body, it wouldn't do him much good;:

No Caption Provided

So, someone with this insane level of durability and healing power, definitely holds the edge when it comes to tanking attacks.

Magic (Advantages)

Now, I am not saying that Etrigan holds a clean Hax advantage, but he does have a plethora of spells that can let him tango with Warlock and come out on top.

First of all - Hellfire:

Etrigan's primary attack has multiple modes of work. It can burn your body, mind and soul. Or only some of those as Etrigan chooses. It can also be modified to only destroy evil etc... But enough of theory craft, let's see what hellfire has accomplished throughout the years:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
1. Superman feels the effect as it burns his soul 2. Etrigan harms the body of the Phantom Stranger (Spectre level) 3. Destroys Dreamcatcher (will explain who that is) 4. MMH feels the fire that burns his soul

*Similarly to Warlock the Dreamcatcher is an embodiment of an idea. Dreamcatcher was one of the concepts that came into being when people started dreaming. He is made out of every person that has ever died in their sleep and can manipulate dreams. Etrigan has destroyed him in the dreamworld, where he should be supreme.

Secondly - Claws:

Etrigan's claws are magic in nature and can cut through most durable foes with little resistance. Once you see who has been shredded by them, i believe you would be inclined to agree that they would be able to cut up Warlock with ease.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
1. Can cut Superman 2. 3.Rips the face of the Spectre 4. Rips off a part of Martian Manhunter's face

It's worth noting that, while he was kicking MMH's ass, he was also fighting Dr Fate, Alan Scott, Ragman, and Blue Devil. And they only beat him in the end by reverting him back to the form of Jason Blood, which can't happen here since i am using boundless bloodless Etrigan with all feats allowed (I believe elseworlds like injustice are excluded).

And last, but not least - Magic:

Soul Rip and BFR.

So, let's start with some pretty soul removal attacks:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
1. Rips out the human half of Blue Demon's soul 2. Rips out another soul 3.4. Sends a priest's soul straight to hell while killing him slowly out of anger.

And let's shortly move on to BFR.

Now, i didn't plan on ever trying to win via BFR, but Etrigan has shown the ability to teleport both himself and others straight into hell. (admittedly, the run was rather weird, but the story ended up with them being alive so i am pretty sure they all survived the flames)

No Caption Provided

Now, you might wonder why exactly am i trying to move the fight to Hell? Well, as it has been established a long time ago, Etrigan's powers fade slowly when he is out of hell. But, as a demon, he is at his strongest while in the domain. So, moving the battle to Hell would be a boost to Etrigan while, at the same time, being detrimental to Warlock.

Remote Hellfire

Well, apart from already battling Superman and managing to react to his attacks, Etrigan also has another nifty trick up his sleeve that he could use against a target he is not fast enough to hit. When he was battling one of the elder gods (THIS ONE)

He recited an incantation that made Hellfire burst out from his opponent.
He recited an incantation that made Hellfire burst out from his opponent.

Magic (Counter)

As questionable as you using the feat of Warlock turning Thanos into stone is, i don't really mind it. After all, Etrigan has been turned to stone before and he simply turned back to his original form thanks to his magic.

No Caption Provided

And, since it's a rare thing to have a scan that is a *perfect* counter to someone's attack, i do revel in using it.

For every other haxxy ability, Etrigan can utilize a number of other protective or counter spells. He is so good at spellcasting that he has legitimately stalemated Merlin, And, of course, we shouldn't forget the number of times he has bested Klarion, the Witch Boy.

The Magic Sword

In his fight against Phyla, Magus has admitted that a magical sword can indeed kill him. Luckily for me, Etrigan is in possession of one of the most powerful magical swords in DC. The Excalibur.

No Caption Provided

As he pulled it right out of the beating heart of Merlin. And this sword is no toy. With it, he has defeated two of the most powerful hell lords at the time,.

Now, I am aware that not all magic swords are the same and not all of them can kill immortal beings. Thankfully, Etrigan has some excellent feats with this version of Excalibur

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
1. Lucifer 2. Belial

Now, this Lucifer is clearly not the omnipotent Vertigo version, but is clearly one of the most powerful demons ever. And Belial in this story was amped to planetary levels thanks to the spell that connected him to the power of the entire Earth. Yet, Etrigan was capable of handing out oneshots thanks to the power of Excalibur.

The Army of Demons

No Caption Provided

Etrigan, when unbound, comes with an army of his own. And, these demons, while fodder, are nothing to scoff at. A handful of them was giving Wonder Woman a lot of trouble.

Now, I'm under no illusion that these demons can beat Warlock. But, they can give Etrigan all the misdirection he might need to end this fight.

A hundred of them, would definitely do the trick. I mean, if nothing, they could just pile up around Warlock and block his vision while Etrigan burns his mind, body, and soul.

Current Conclusions

I am trying to keep these posts as short as i can. Unfortunately, it's not always that easy, so, sometimes i might leave some details out. For now, we have seen that Etrigan can pretty much replicate any feat Warlock has performed and that he has outstanding counters to most of them. Sure, if Warlock has the Soul Gem, i would give this fight to him. But, without the gem, or any of his other powerups, Warlock doesn't really stand a chance against the brutality of Etrigan.

Based on their feats, they seem to be equally fast, Warlock fought Quasar, Etrigan Fought Superman, and he was even stomping Wonder Woman. But, when it comes to durability and damage potential, Etrigan definitely holds the edge in this fight. I am not saying that Warlock has no ways of winning this. But, there is only a handful of approaches that would work. And Warlock simply doesn't have the required knowledge about Etrigan to choose teh right strategy.

on the other hand, Warlock (even in his latest forms) has been killed by relatively normal means (for example, decapitation by Gamora)

No Caption Provided

While both of them are immortal, Etrigan is the only one that doesn't die from bodily damage. Warlock only comes back "later" when the battle is already lost. On the other hand, Etrigan has taken tons of damage without going down or even really minding it.

With that in mind, the army of demons + excalibur + Hellfire + magic simply outstrip the abilities you have showcased so far. But, of course, i am certain that you have kept most of the feats up your sleeve. So, let's get on with the next round.

Avatar image for darthjhawk
#39 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for darthjhawk
#40 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: That post was hellfire. Cheesy pun intended. Awesome stuff man. I’ll have my response up ASAP. Hopefully within the week

Avatar image for ouroborik
#41 Posted by Ouroborik (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for nucleon
#42 Posted by Nucleon (3195 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Chimeroid's tactics; Start off gently, give a nice overall, then with more focused stuff afterwards.

I would like more arguments (and counter-arguments) than feats, even thought I know that with these cosmics and magicians, it isn't easy drawing a definite line.

Avatar image for chimeroid
#43 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@nucleon said:

I like Chimeroid's tactics; Start off gently, give a nice overall, then with more focused stuff afterwards.

I would like more arguments (and counter-arguments) than feats, even thought I know that with these cosmics and magicians, it isn't easy drawing a definite line.

There will be arguments, we are just taking it slow. Thanks for the compliment :)

Avatar image for rac95
#44 Posted by Rac95 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and after every post please

Avatar image for stormshadow_x
#45 Posted by StormShadow_X (16693 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

Online
Avatar image for chimeroid
#46 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: That post was hellfire. Cheesy pun intended. Awesome stuff man. I’ll have my response up ASAP. Hopefully within the week

bumpity

Avatar image for darthjhawk
#47 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid@higherpower: Sorry for the delay guys! Please dont DQ me yet! It wasnt as intricate as I would have liked given I lost a good amount of time. But here it is

Counters, Rebuttals, and Strategies I: Adam vs Etrigan

No Caption Provided

Foreword: Kicking things up a Notch

I gotta say, I am impressed. You seem to have brought your A-game, even if it feels like you are still holding back some. With your post it seemed you feel Etrigan takes a solid majority. And I can see why you think that. Etrigan is incredibly powerful, especially when unbound. So it took me a few readings of your post, as well as some reading for both our mutual characters. Unfortunately to start with I cam across a few things which seemed out of place, be they misconceptions or misunderstandings of information. Such information I feel when corrected will paint a clearer picture, at least from my perspective on where these two stand with one another. As such I'll be starting with that.

=======================================================

Adam vs Etrigan I: Rebuttals

Physical Capabilities:

That does seem rather impressive. Granted, that was Thanos before several amps, but still a good showing for an alternate future version of Warlock. But, is it enough to claim superiority?

I'm not sure why that comment is relevant to be honest. We've all known from the start that I have access to a composite Warlock & Magus. Which even then shouldn't need to be specified since they are one and the same. Similar to the old tale of Dr.Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

I mean, i have given you Etrigan punching Superman to the Moon. It takes a lot of strength to do that. I mean, there are two options, either he sent Superman flying at near-lightspeed velocity so Superman couldn't react, or he knocked Superman out in one punch and Clark flew to the Moon slightly slower. Either way, it would take a baffling amount of physical force. Of course, that is not all.

To be honest. I dont see this as above Pre Resurrection Thanos, Drax or Magus. I mean the clash between Thanos and Drax destroyed a planet:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Iron Man Vol. 1 #55

And I showed you Warlock beating Drax's face in, and Magus himself being a physical match and overpowering Thanos. Who was likely stronger than the version seen in these above scans. And in regards to Etrigan punching Superman. How much can you really put that above these showings? Its less quantifiable in my opinion, as well as not above planetary. Sure that would take a baffling amount of physical force, but can you honestly tell me that its above planet busting strength and durability?

When unbound, Etrigan also has the Strength needed to completely overpower Superman with 1 hand.

I don't fully agree with this. How much of a role does Etrigan being a magic based character play a role in this, just like with punching and supposedly harming Superman? For one, if Superman was overpowered I dont think he would be in a position to stalemate him at that point, as well as be able to speak to Batman like he did.If he was completely and utterly overpowered he would more likely have been pinned, putting up no resistance. But furthermore, if he was completely overpowered, how exactly did Superman get free from his grip and punching him out no more than 3-4 pages later:

Trinity (2016) Annual #1
Trinity (2016) Annual #1

There isn't a shred of doubt in my mind that Etrigan is vastly better at tanking stuff than Warlock. I mean, just from my opener (that is rather bare-bones basic) you can see feats that Adam would be hard-pressed to replicate. I mean, i have literally shown him survive an angry attack from the Spectre.

I not sure why you would call this tanking an attack, if you used the terminology of survived. Superman has survived a punch from H'el, from Superman. Batman has survived a punch from Superman. Wonder Woman ha survived a punch from a bloodlusted Superman in the Sacrifice story arc. Does that mean she tanked it? While that may not be the best analogy, characters survive things all of the time. That doesn't exactly mean they tanked them.

In addition how consistent is that for Spectre who has the the same standing in terms of portrayal as someone like Galactus, the Living Tribunal, Eternity etc, essentially an abstract, fundamental force of the universe having his attacks tanked by Etrigan? Does Etrigan just accelarate up to his level? Or is more likely that the Spectre has a more consistent history of jobbing or fighting down? Especially when this was Eclipso in control, not the Spectre under his own devices.

Moreover, even if Warlock manages to damage Etrigan's body, it wouldn't do him much good;: So, someone with this insane level of durability and healing power, definitely holds the edge when it comes to tanking attacks.

Why not? This clearly wasn't mid combat. In fact this was sometime after a battle based on the dialogue alone. Can you show me more actual healing in combat? Like this:

Guardians of The Galaxy Vol. 2 #23
Guardians of The Galaxy Vol. 2 #23

Having a healing factor or regeneration does not guarantee get out of jail free cards from being knocked out or incapacitated in any way. As even characters with the most potent healing factors have all gone through either. And I'm sure Etrigan has as well given that he clearly is coming to or coming back to a location after a battle. Even if that weren't the case, Adam has other means to circumvent this. In fact just comparing tanking and healing, Magus in the above scan practically laughed at the same attack Drax used to kill Thanos himself in Annihilation. I don't see Etrigan above Adam just yet at all. I still find this and his durability feat from Infinity Countdown, no selling the planet explosion more impressive by quantifiable, scaling, and portrayal means.

Magic & Versatility:

Etrigan's Hellfire:

Etrigan's primary attack has multiple modes of work. It can burn your body, mind and soul. Or only some of those as Etrigan chooses. It can also be modified to only destroy evil etc... But enough of theory craft, let's see what hellfire has accomplished throughout the years:

I went through these scans, and i'm not sure I fully buy that Hellfire is as potent of an ability as your making it out be. Physically or by means of the soul.

1. With Superman, he verbatim states that is doesnt bother him physically, but only bothers his soul. As far as resisting harmful effects to one's soul Warlock has resisted physical and mental takeover from the Soul Gem itself:

No Caption Provided

I doubt hellfire is more powerful than an Infinity Gem. So I think Adam will be fine, even if he cant absorb or evade it anyway.

  • Scan 2: I find this to be questionable. This would put Etrigan on the level of an skyfather to an abstract if this was actually consistent and not related to some other contextual, jobbing, or PIS factor. Especially if you want to compare him to the Spectre.
  • Scan 3: Etrigan states that in the final panel that this hellfire doesnt truly bother souls, but rather destroys evil. Like the penance stare. I don't really see that as relevant here to be honest. Its not actually harming a soul, at least according to Etrigan.
  • Scan 4: MMH's most known weakness if fire. And as far as the discomfort of burning a soul, I dont see how thats above resisting the Soul Gem literally attacking Adam and him coming out of it alright.

Etrigan's Claws:

Etrigan's claws are magic in nature and can cut through most durable foes with little resistance. Once you see who has been shredded by them, i believe you would be inclined to agree that they would be able to cut up Warlock with ease.

Sure they can likely cut him. However he would have to tag Adam with them. And Adam can use his shields to easily block them:

Annihilation Conquest #2
Annihilation Conquest #2

And even if he is tagged. I've shown you Adam healing from being cut by an Oblivion realm forged sword as well as healing from the attack that killed Thanos easily, mid combat, and quickly. So I doubt they'll be relevant in putting Warlock down anytime soon.

As questionable as you using the feat of Warlock turning Thanos into stone is, i don't really mind it. After all, Etrigan has been turned to stone before and he simply turned back to his original form thanks to his magic.

This is fine. I admit to the questionability of this scan, seeing as it has a lot of PIS over it. I can concede on this one.

For every other haxxy ability, Etrigan can utilize a number of other protective or counter spells. He is so good at spellcasting that he has legitimately stalemated Merlin, And, of course, we shouldn't forget the number of times he has bested Klarion, the Witch Boy.

As for this I'll need to see more. I haven't really read Etrigan. You can expect me to take you at face value, even as credible as you are. I dont know how relevant Merlin is in terms of showings, for all we know he could not be all that impressive. Just stalemating him in energy blasts as that scan shows tells me nothing of how Etrigan can counter Warlock's esoteric abilities. I would have preferred you show me actual scans of these counter spells. To me right now, it seems like you are just saying this to get out of actually showing the necessary abilities and expecting to take it at face value because its Merlin and Klarion.

Now, this Lucifer is clearly not the omnipotent Vertigo version, but is clearly one of the most powerful demons ever. And Belial in this story was amped to planetary levels thanks to the spell that connected him to the power of the entire Earth. Yet, Etrigan was capable of handing out oneshots thanks to the power of Excalibur.

While this is impressive. I dont think this will be enough to actually harm or put Adam/Magus down in the long run. For one he already operates at above planetary levels in my book. And two he has shrugged off hits from Avatar of Death Phylla-Vell and her sword:

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 #19
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 #19

And this blade is forged and powered by Oblivion, the abstract himself of non-existence. I dont think that Exaclibur, good as it is will be enough given how Magus treated Phylla's blade. And immediately healed from it too. Furthermore whats to stop him from simply taking it like he did here, and using it against Etrigan?

Etrigan, when unbound, comes with an army of his own. And, these demons, while fodder, are nothing to scoff at. A handful of them was giving Wonder Woman a lot of trouble.Now, I'm under no illusion that these demons can beat Warlock. But, they can give Etrigan all the misdirection he might need to end this fightA hundred of them, would definitely do the trick. I mean, if nothing, they could just pile up around Warlock and block his vision while Etrigan burns his mind, body, and soul.

To be honest, I dont see these guys as being that relevant. Adam/Magus could just blast them all back and exorcise their souls at once. Like he did with the GOTG here:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
GOTG Vol. 2 #19

Or blast them with a huge obliteration charm that can destroy planetoids easily:

No Caption Provided

Or just exorcize their souls into energy and channel it through himself, like he did with billions of Kree Souls with himself and Phylla in Annihilation: Conquest:

No Caption Provided

So unfortunately I do not buy that this army of relative fodder will be able to do much at all, let alone be any sort of distraction for Adam. Especially with the Magus feats who has shown usage of his powers at much faster than rates than Adam has generally. With the combined composite experience, and skill usage, I sincerely doubt they'll be much threat. Especially since you yourself admitted the best they could be was a distraction.

Adam vs Etrigan II: Counterarguments & Strategies

Chime's Strategies::

Soul Rip and BFR.

So, let's start with some pretty soul removal attacks:

I wouldn't even try it. In fact if anything Adam will be the one taking his soul. Ive already shown you Adam resisting the Soul Gem trying to control his body and soul. But there is also:

Rune #7
Rune #7

When Rune tries to remove Adam's soul, even as he lay dying, Rune couldn't remove it in the slightest. Because Adam is master of his own soul. That combined with the fine control he showed in GOTG Vol. 2 I doubt Etrigan can take his soul. In fact I would say Adam will take his more easily and channel it into him. Adam has already shown planetary+ control of souls during the battle with Ultron. So I doubt Etrigan can resist him for long, especially since Adam/Magus can also channel the power of souls from more than one planet at a time in the Thanos Imperative.

And let's shortly move on to BFR.

Now, i didn't plan on ever trying to win via BFR, but Etrigan has shown the ability to teleport both himself and others straight into hell. (admittedly, the run was rather weird, but the story ended up with them being alive so i am pretty sure they all survived the flames)

Now, you might wonder why exactly am i trying to move the fight to Hell? Well, as it has been established a long time ago, Etrigan's powers fade slowly when he is out of hell. But, as a demon, he is at his strongest while in the domain. So, moving the battle to Hell would be a boost to Etrigan while, at the same time, being detrimental to Warlock.

While normally BFR isnt typically allowed since conditions where to fight to KO, Death or Incap, I'll address this anyway just in case its ruled against me. Adam has shown the ability to teleport himself and others across vast distances:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
  • Scan 1: Teleports himself and Sif out of Asgard into another dimension (Thor Vol. 1)
  • Scan 2: Teleported an entire scientific complex into another dimension
  • Scan 3: teleported himself and Gamora across the universe. (GOTG Vol. 2)
  • Scan 4: As Magus opens a portal into another dimension for him and his Black Knights (Warlock Vol. 2)

Also why would Hell be detrimental to Warlock? He's fought, been unbothered, and survived in Mephisto's Realm of Hell. I don't see why Etrigan would be any different. Plus we've already addressed Hellfire as Etrigan uses it. It can't really hurt Adam on a physical or spiritual level.

Conclusion, Summary, & Current Thoughts: Warlock Stands Tall

Combat Skill:

While I find Adam to be superior physically, at least based on what's been shown. He has another method up his sleeve that should allow him to win, at least in this area. And that is Martial Skill. I wont spend a whole lot of time, since its not usually discussed in battles on this tier. Still I find it worth mentioning.

Adam has not received any formal training, but is an accomplished self-taught fighter and martial artist. His fighting skills are evident throughout his battles:

No Caption Provided

We see that not only does he have a huge capacity for martial arts, but that he also gains every thought experience from every soul he has stolen, like with Capatin Autolycus here. With this skill Adam has shown feats such as this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
  • Scan 1: Overwhelm the Shield and Captain America trained Quasar in H2H. (Thanos Imperative: Ignition)
  • Scan 2: After dodging a blast from SS, places him in a hold where he could not physically contend, despite his rage. showing of both strength and skill imo. (Warloc/Surfer: Resurrection #4
  • Scan 3: Against a group of Rigellians, who physically amped themselves with tech to be Warlock's superior, Warlock bested them with skill alone.

So what do these scans show? That Adam has a means to best Etrigan even should he not prove physically superior, even if they are equals no less. The feats shown display a quick capacity to learn and improve, and allow an intagbible factor outside of sheer power that can afford a victory. Additionally Adam has his karmic staff given that he is composite. And that provides another mid range option to keep Etrigan at bay as well as tag him all the more. Combine that with Adam's versatility and he should be more than a match for Etrigan all around.

Speaking of Versatility:

Speaking of said versatility, I think there are a couple of other ways that Adam can take down Etrigan for a victory. For one he could overload/short circuit his system like he did with Silver Surfer and Quasar:

Thanos: The Infinity Revalation
Thanos: The Infinity Revalation

Adam can do this to character's and sources of energy he can manipulate. He did this with the Quantum Bands, the Power Cosmic, and given that he is composite, even Magic. Furthermore Adam has access to his Quantum magic which as I explained in my opener allows him to get in touch with the cosmic forces of the universe and more. Meaning that Etrigan, a being who has an energy system of magic could quite easily be taken down in the same way. I doubt he has the same sort of energy resistances that would be required here.

Or if that doesn't work, Adam can straight up drain his magic along with his soul:

GOTG Vol. 2
GOTG Vol. 2

As seen here where he drained Magique of the Shiar Imperial Guard of her magic, leaving her in a cold, frostbitten state. that's double duty for Etrigan needing to resist the draining and freezing nature of it.

Overall though, my main reasons for Adam winning still stand:

Not only does Adam have the quantity, but also the quality to outmatch the demon.

  • Adam should be able to match him blow for blow and blast for blast.
  • I'll wait for sure to say so, but it seems unless Etrigan has resistance, Adam can drain him of his energy and magic. Crippling Etrigan and replenishing Adam. Or if applicable short him out like he did with Norrin and Wendell
  • Adam's fighting skill and energy manipulation skill (which I will get into next post) can afford him a leg up should they prove to be equals in raw power
  • Worst comes to worst, Adam/Magus can manipulate Etrigan's soul or transmute him to incapacitate/KO/kill him that way for the win.
Avatar image for darthjhawk
#48 Posted by Darthjhawk (5474 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for kevd4wg
#49 Posted by Kevd4wg (12750 posts) - - Show Bio

Very good

Online
Avatar image for arkhamasylum3
#50 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3868 posts) - - Show Bio