All Out War Vol 1: The Viltrum Empire (Image Comics) vs The Shi'ar Empire (Marvel Comics)

Rules

Both Viltrum Empire and the Shi'ar are at their peak capacity and leadership

Both sides are not allowed to contract other races or armies to assist them

Assume Imperial Guard is composite

The Viltrum Empire have access to Invincible and Omni-Man

Imperial Guard have access to Vulcan

Assume no in-fighting or double crossing from both armies: all members will be loyal (through morals will still play a part in how they fight or in how they act)

Both Empires start with no knowledge of how the other operates

Winner only by complete destruction of the other empire or by surrender

@kaijuking Knock yourself out here

Seems like I've seen this thread before.

Nah it's brand new

Ok, so we have to determine whats peak for Viltrumites. The peak would be after their first purge, before Scourge Virus. They cut their population in half. Lets assume they had real world numbers of today given their tech and long lives they should have more, but lets lowball.

7,800,000,000 humans approx on Earth. Lets half that. Thats still 3 Billion Viltrumites. All Mark Level or higher.

How does the Shiar win? They can send 7 or 10 Viltrumites to every planet and just DESTROY the Shiar Empire resources and still have billions left to fight Gladiator, Vulcan, and the rest f the Guard with characters like Nolan, Mark, Thragg, Conquest, Anissa, ect.

The Shi'ar rules an entire galaxy while Viltrum only rules a portion of one so the Shi'ar have far greater numbers. That said I don't know if they can overcome Viltrumites consistently in space battles. Marvel is weird when it comes to space armadas.

Vulcan recently stated he could crack the moon in half, for what it's worth.

One question, how many planets they rule and have?

See in SCi Fi ruling a galaxy like Star Wars or Warhammer 40K is millions of viable worlds. Where other sci fi a ruled a agalaxy like Star Trek who have themselves 1/4 a galaxy only 100 major worlds, or Macross from Robotech which only have dozens of worlds.

Numbers matter more than stating they rule a galaxy in this context. Most worlds I see Shiar rule are worlds that do not even know the Shiar exist as Shiar are shown in comics to rule many worlds not capable of space flight and have primitives. Worlds that Viltrumites will flat out ignore.

While I can't argue on this thread, I can say that the Shi'ar have a lot more tech on their side than the Viltrumites, stuff like the Mummudari or the Nega-Bombs, used to destroy small galaxies. This isn't bringing up the Crystal either or 100 mile warships designed to wipe out multiple planets or whatnot.

Vulcan is a Omega Level energy manipulator. OMEGA LEVEL!

@sy8000: when did he say that?

While all true, the Viltrumites can function fine with no world, and move at MFTL speeds. I dont see how Shiar can detect human size MFTL speeding warriors heading to their planets to wreck or just get some food and water and on their way to Shiar major worlds. They be Nega bombing their own empire. Not a option.

The Crystal is not a option, its double death for the universe. Both sides lose.

The ships are the worse off. One Viltrumite will bash its hull, and wreck the inside fine, and thats a major resource loss. For 1 out of 3 billion Viltrumites.

As Viltrumites shown, they can fight on without their empire or homeworld, rebuild as needed somewhere else. They did this 3 times. Original homeworld busted. They Claim Earth. Thragg was exile, he claim the bug world and built a instant army. Mark found new homeworld(s) for Viltrumites after last battle. They are not beaten wiping out their worlds. They can resettle easy anywhere as long it has food, air, and water. Things the Shiar need as well. Leaving a Scorch Earth (Galaxy) Policy impossible for the Shiar too.

Also its was a Viltrumite who made the Scourge Virus. It was Viltrumites who made utopian worlds out of wrecked ones with their knowledge and tech. It was Viltrumites who made Viltrumites, the process of Smart Atoms super beings. They can rebuild anywhere and even design a Shiar specific Scourge really. Making matters worse for Shiar.

Who cares that he is omega level?

@professorrespect: BTW, I ask ya to make this thread, so feel free to argue it. It was me asking it to be made. I wanted to know what the Shiar really had to win. So feel free to jump in.

Nah I can't break the rules lol. Feel free to argue with the others through, I can only pop in with new info.

Exterminatus.

Like what tho

@professorrespect: the term in 40k for planetary annihilation or destruction , and judging by the stuff you mentioned above, I think it’s pretty obvious that glads or whoever leads Shi’ar would be capable of performing the complete eradication of Viltrum and its inhabitants.

Which again you all say this, but ignore the fact they can fly across the galaxy, target whatever words needed with 7-10 max, and still have billions left over to decimate Shiar Homeworld and any planet busting ship with ease.

unlike Shiar who need resources, the Viltrumites dont. They dont need supply lines, fuel, weapons, ammo, ect. All they need is a quick stop at any world, wreck it in minuets, take a breath of fresh air that lasts two weeks for galaxy trips, and fly on to the next planet. Rinse Repeat.

I mean, what counter they have to that?

Gladiator (who is MFTL +++ in travel) and his boy would take care of normie viltrumites with ease, and for an empire so adept in warfare, they would be able to realize what strategy the viltrumites are pulling.

Oh so Gladiator ALONE will take care of 3 Billion Viltrumites. Including Mark, Thragg, Omni Man, Conquest, and Anissa (Top 5) who are among that crowd.

Because as fast as Glads is Viltrumites travel space as fast mate. No feat at all you can bust out that suggest Glads is traveling faster than they can first off.

Gallery

Mark and Omni Man travel from one planet in another Solar System all the way to the capital planet of the galaxy in the same amount of time that a few hours worth battle took place. They not only arrive in that time frame, but blitz the other Viltrumites upon arrival,. Meaning they located their targets in battle with a city planet in that same time frame.

Mark again in one page flies so fast the stars are long blurs. Reaching across the breath of the interstellar empire in no time. Traveling lightyears in seconds to be honest.

Second off, by himself will save the possible 1000s of worlds? Being attacks at the same time?

I mean in the show Omni Man by himself wrecks the government, cities, and power grids of a super advance Flaxan Planet.

In minuets this world was civilization was wiped out, by 3 bullcharging Viltrumites.

Imagine what 7 or 10 can do to a world filled with peak humans and blasters. Gladiator cannot be everywhere now can he? Do the math mate.

• 3 Billion Viltrumites all Mark level (mid comic Mark is lowballing).
• Lets say Im generous and say 1000 worlds for Shiar.
• 10 Viltrumites per world.

Thats only 10,000 Viltrumites used out of 3 billion. 2 Billion 190 Thousand left to fight.

• Lets say 1000 of planet buster ships.
• 3 Viltrumites per ship (Bust the hull, fly in, wreck it in seconds really)

Now that leaves still. 2 Billion 160 Thousand Viltrumites to fight.

I mean... its simple numbers. Each Viltrumite is Iron Man at his best level, with some reaching more close to She Hulk or Thing in stats in the top 10 Viltrumites. So your only argument is Glads engaing 1 out of 1000 worlds at a time, beat those guys down, and fly on the next 1 out of however many worlds left? Thats your argument? The Empire of the Shiar be wasted in weeks and there be still billion of Viltrumites flying at MFTL+++++++ Speeds to the next target. Send mere1000 Viltrumites to Shiar throne world and take out the government and military high ups in one blow. Watch the whole Empire crumble instantly.

Its not a fair fight for Shiar. They can barely deal with a shit X-Men team much less billions of Iron Man level beings with same travel speed as Gladiator.

@rajjarsalt said:

Current X-Men run.

@sy8000 said:

@rajjarsalt said:

@sy8000: when did he say that?

Current X-Men run.

Thanks!

There's a planet full of Gladiators in the Shi'ar empire

Aka Strontians, they’re less powerful as Kallark was enhanced by tech, but nonetheless that should be a bonus to grant Shi’ar the win.

Proof?

I thought they all went extinct outside of that one girl and Gladiator himself

@rajjarsalt: maybe idk havent read the comic in years

Gladiator solos Viltrumites and their entire mid-tier verse.

What's your reasoning?

No insults please, don't want to call mods to the thread.

Viltrum Empire stomps

Yes it does.

Yeah and? They only enhance 10 people to be Gladiator and only Gladiator himself hit that Superman peak. I mean the Viltrumites enhance all their people to Viltrumites they are today. Gladiator is like Allen the Alien, where they could only successfully enhance one to superman levels.

Add to this the information I read stated they are nearly extinct, stated only 4 left and only 1 of the 4 is Glads level the rest are Iron man level.

so 3 Iron Man level Stronians and 1 Gladiator vs 3 billion Viltrumites.

That's your opinion on the reasoning, not objectively so. I can't debate in my own thread so no, why would I argue against it?

All I'm asking is no insults because I want a civil thread that doesn't get locked because of reckless users. If you can't handle that then please direct yourself elsewhere.

Its not 3 billion Viltrumites.

They purged themselves to get rid of weakness. You literally cannot compare random Viltrumites to Mark.

Those random Viltrumites were getting one shot left and right by other, no-name, weaker Viltrumites.

I would argue that the 50 or so Viltrumites in the series would run through the 3 billion Viltrumites with ease, thus, their peak is not when they had plentiful numbers.

I mean look at Thraggs kids. They were complete fodder and exploded when they touched a Viltrumite. That is pretty much what the empire was before the purge.

@Aristeaus: The virus killed 99.9% of the Viltrumites. Probably millions, if not billions survived the initial purge.

Thragg kids are irrelevant as they they are not pure Viltrumite.

We don’t know what they meant by weakness, could be mental as well as physical. Even the strongest Viltrumites easily hurt each other when they fought.

This is all irrelevant anyway, Shiar definitely don’t have a planet full of Gladiators and the feats we saw from Viltrumites are enough for them to stomp. IIRC 4-5 of them busted a planet.

You don't know that. The virus came after they purged themselves of weakness. We have no idea how many survived. The virus only infected 99.9%, but we know that many fought it off, or were only weakened and died to something else.

Neither is Mark.

Not nearly as easy as in the series. We know they were all dying left and right to one shots. There are very few, if any, one shots after the purge.

3 of them did, after the planets core was destabilized by the space dudes laser.

Even if we assume 90% of them died from the virus, thats only 500 Viltrumites before the virus. At 99.9%, its only 50,000, but again that is a stretch. Its also a far cry from millions of billions.

Shi'ar do not need a planet full of Gladiators. Gladiator alone would run through most of them. Vulcan is so far above them it isn't even funny. I would argue that Vulcan could take out the entirety of the Viltrumite empire solo.

@Aristeaus: Been some time since I read Invincible but I remember that their purge about halved their population (correct me if I’m wrong). Do you believe only 100,000 of their species existed in the first place? That seems too low for a species inhabiting a planet.

I think the one-shots were supposed to convey the story of how they killed each other in a couple panels, not really meant to display anything. Viltrumites were able to pierce each others’ bodies many times in the series easily, but needed openings to do so. An all out fight like the purge probably gave many openings to do so.

It was never stated that surviving the virus meant physical strength. There is no reason why the remaining 50 would be stronger than the ones that died.

Human DNA was stated to be almost completely compatible with Viltrumite DNA, making Mark almost full Viltrumite. The bug kids didn’t have that. Mark still had to grow up a lot (and had plot armor) to achieve this status.

I think you are largely overestimating Gladiator and Vulcan. Gladiator doesn’t have the feats to combat more than (at best) 10 Viltrumites cutting loose (I assume we ignore Mark’s jobs against dumb villains as Invincible power levels were sometimes all over the place).

I honestly hadn’t considered Vulcan, but he was having problems with physical H2H with Black Bolt. He didn’t seem to be powerful enough to wipe out the Kree empire, or whole armadas just by himself.

Viltrumites have the advantage of being able to take a planet with just a small number of their army. They can win by taking Shiar worlds and not committing their entire strength in one place (allowing Vulcan OP’ness to be a factor).

Vulcan reforming ability is actually too strong but Viltrumite empire had some decent tech, given time they could figure out a way to deal with Vulcan after they take worlds and destroy the Shiar fleet.

@Aristeaus: might need to read the comics.

Thraggs kids were kids and even Mark twice their age was weak as shit till he started major work out routines. The half of population who survive the bloody murderous Purge are step above the kids Thragg had. Its like arguing a MMA Fighter or just a person who took Martial Arts lessons and workout vs a child.

Next the numbers. You realize they had enough bodies to form a visible from space ring around the planet in dead from Virus bodies. You realize how many dead human bodies needed to form a visible ring around earth? More than billions. That was their population. Wow.

So what other counters you need ro be debunk?

Well, if we assume the 99.9% is accurate, and 50 Viltrumites were left, that is 50,000 total. Simple math.

Marks brother was one of those bug kids and was much more durable then the ones Thragg created.

Gladiator fought Galactus. He certainly has the feats. He destroyed a planet in a few hits. No speed, just pure strength. Gladiator is also much faster then they are. He reacts in nano seconds. Even his son, who is much weaker then him, considered Quicksilver speed to be unimpressive. Quicksilver has FTL feats. Gladiator has feats at 100x FTL.

Vulcan actually beat BB in hand to hand pretty easily. He even survived a full scream from him. Vulcan has gone toe to toe with people vastly outside of Viltrumites power levels. It took the T-Bomb, something that blew a hole in space itself to "kill" him.

Not only that, BB's full screams have killed beings that would solo the Viltumite Empire. It took down LT, Galactus, and even Celestials for god sakes.

Kids who aged much faster then humans. Marks brother was the same breed as Thraggs kids. lol

Numbers don't like. 99.9%. 50 Viltrumites left. 500 is 1%, 5,000 is 10%. 50,000 is 100%.

Not even close to billions. Debunk math. Go on. I'll wait.

@Aristeaus: And kid Omni Man was fodder till he hit teenage years. Your point? Also for more slap in the face for ya, Omni Man states it takes till adult hood for half breed Viltrumites to phase out parent DNA and become full bred Viltrumites. Further making your claims more debunk.

nice and faulty. 99.9 percent is a figure of speech. Just like soap kills 99.9 percent. Its not exactly 99.9 percent. Its the closest numbers to a common phrase to nearly 100%.

https://imagesourceinc.com/the-truth-about-99-accuracy/

Then the fact there was enough dead bodies to make a ring further supports my claim and further debunks your litteral use of math for urban slang close to 100%.

Try harder.

@Aristeaus: Damn bro, I might haven taken you too seriously. Don’t say stuff like “Gladiator fought Galactus” or argue that BB can kill LT, Celestials and Galactus. Thanos Wins future is most definitely not 616 canon and it is laughable you would think so.

Oliver wasn’t blue by the time he was powerful, even then he would only peak weaker than an actual Viltrumite or Mark. Age makes them more powerful.

Shiar tech is far too vast, and they have far greater numbers.

Shiar have a lot of cards they can play...

1) the Shiar gods

Shyrra, Kythri, the Phoenix force, Phoenix host quentin

Shyrra and Kythri live on the planet and can do shit like throwing supernovas for giggles, and they summon the Phoenix force casually by making out.

Quentin quire is also a recognized host. These four alone will take out a chunk of the viltrumite forces

2) The Shiar have two G-type beings. These guys are actual stars and can blow up planets. The strongest viltrumites die from being at the suns surface. Throw these guys at them. And see what happens

3)Nega bombs that can destroy galaxys and weaker Nega bombs that only bust planets

4)weapons that force stars to go supernova

5) should we mention that Charles Xavier is the father of the current empress Xandra, and husband of the previous empress lilandra. That Legion, the omega level reality warper, is the older brother of the empress Xandra.

That Vulcan, the previous emperor of the Shiar and husband to Lilandras sister Deathbird (and father of her child), is an omega level mutant that doesn't die and keeps rebuilding himself back. Did I mention that his half brother Adam xtreme is the son of previous shiar emperor D'ken, and his older brother cyclops is the general of an army of mutants, husband of omega level Phoenix host Jean grey, and father of power houses like nate grey, Cable, hope summers(well grand dad) and Rachel grey.

Even if we ignore the army of mutants on Krakoa because other races aren't involved and just include those that are part of the Shiar royal family like Xavier, Jean grey, Legion, Vulcan, Rachel, then I don't really see the viltrumites winning much.

Xavier, Jean and Rachel should be able to handle a few billion viltrumites quickly, if we go by their peak showings.

Legion alone can warp them away. God forbid if Jean decides to join with the Phoenix.

(ofcourse this is if the OP allows extended family of the Shiar royal family to join the fight)

I mean, billions of viltrumites is a lot of fire power, but the Shiar have the tech and resources to deal with them if given enough time to act. But viltrumites have a good shot at overwhelming them and wrecking their empire