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#101 Posted by Red_Ruby_Petal (6536 posts) - - Show Bio
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#102 Posted by HigherPower (11911 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower: a couple city blocks.

So multi-city block level. People underestimate how large cities truly are.

No Caption Provided

I don't know enough about Ben to say who'd win this however.

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#103 Posted by Red_Ruby_Petal (6536 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower: Thats a good reminder for me to ask anyone for scans before they claim a city level feat. Including myself :/.

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#104 Posted by Battle123axe (8512 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@battle123axe:

yes, and needles are not hollow either. of course, she states this because she expected there to be a mechanism inside, because it was going to be used to reverse the magnetic poles of the earth, if there was no mechanism inside, then she would state so, it would also be effortless for her to say that there's no mechanism inside, it's hollow, or when thing shatters it, he could have easily stated that it was hollow, so that was shy he broke it. nothing of the sort.

Again:

  1. Sue states there was no mechanism inside (The underlined part confuses me because you seem to agree in your first sentence there is no mechanism inside?)
  2. Again the thing states he may have hit a weak point.....He wouldn't have made a statement like that if it weren't hollow.

sue states there is no mechanism inside to do what it was meant to do, which doesn't really prove it being hollow. at all. it was made to reverse magnetic poles, and sue noted that there was nothing inside to help it do that, not nothing inside at all. Sorry jash, but thing saying that he found a weak point has NOTHING to do with it being hollow, karnak for example, everything he hits isn't hollow, having a weak point means that there is a flaw in its structure that make it easy to break or bring down, hollowness has nothing to do with it.

So even the thing isn't sure if he used his own strength to shatter it....At best it isn't measurable. thing also said that he EITHER found a weak point (which is incredibly unlikely on something that huge, especially at the base), or he is stronger than he thought, which is actually more likely, because it was during that period where thing's strength was increasing more notably and he was growing stronger

No Caption Provided

the scan doesn't mention it, it showsit, it was literally shown being built, and literally nothing indicates it would be, or is, hollow, whether it has to do with structure, or function.

There also isn't anything which doesn't indicate the crystal isn't hollow. I don't see how it proves or disproves anything.

it was shown being built, and at that, it was shown being solid while doing so. that is not an indication, that is on panel shown. really, the evidence indicates it not being hollow, but the scans you are using are the ones with no evidence on the contrary, especially the sue scan. if something appears solid and was shown to be solid while it was being built, then it should be solid. sue assumed, because of it's function, that there would be something inside that allowed it to do what it was built to do, but she didn't find anything inside it that could be used in that way, that doesn't mean that there was nothing inside. you're looking a little too close to find details for something that isn't there.

why would it be drastically different? cyrstal is crystal, not only mentioning that this would most likely be tougher than normal crystal, coming from a hyper-advanced culture, but crystal does not differ in basic structure, and alien literally only means that it is not from earth, which it most obviously isn't.

Because its not an earthly mineral so we don't know anything about its molecular makeup

if it had a different molecular makeup, then by definition, it would not be a crystal, crystals are named as such because of their molecular structure.

he uploaded scans of it.

Alright I admittedly thought he was trying to show scans of Thing surviving a plant exploding because that what looks like is happening. Still I need more context because it looks like captain america also survived the blast. The scan mentions something about a trophy case being shattered would I be correct in assuming the trophy case contained the heroes? If so it sounds like they were protected from the blast.

But again I am left to read the scan and interpret it without any context. So more details would be helpful.

cap and some of the others were caught at the edge of the blast, thing and the rest of the FF IIRC were closer to the center

ben has much better striking feats than all might, including oneshotting kree sentries,

I'm not familiar with kree sentries. Fodder tend to vary in terms of durability. Mindless ones for example have been one shotted by spider-man but they've also had really impressive durability feats IIRC. I'm mostly interested in measurable feats that I can put a number on.

oh yeah, those kree sentries were tanking punches from people like cap marvel and she hulk. but whatever, since you're not interested in scaling/

taking down super adaptoid with the durability or vision and iron man while it was phased into him,

Visions intangibility works by altering his density. If it was phased into him this means it would be lowering its durability.

he was phased solid inside of thing

breaking invisible woman's barriers, hurting people like champion, namor, classic hulk, sandman, a living black hole, doctor doom.

Again I'm mostly looking for measurable feats. I don't really judge characters physical abilities on who they have tanked hits from, or who they have tagged, or who they have hurt unless we are talking about a character who hasn't had a chance to show off there abilities outside of fighting other characters. The thing has been around for decades and he's had his own ongoing (fantastic four, marvel-two in one, his own solo book at one point) so I would rather rely on measurable feats to compare to all mights.

together with iron man bringing a mountain down around him with the shockwave of their blows,

Its from marvel feature #12. Pretty good feat but honestly not out of all might's league. Thing and iron man achieved that with successive blows. It wasn't just one shockwave or anything like that. They had been fighting for a few pages. I think if All Might had fought someone like All for one underneath that mountain it would have collapsed eventually.

to be fair, it was not more than a handful of punches from each, because over the course of the fight, they were moving, and also it was only them letting loose that caused that, as it was shown that they only really started pummeling the blood brothers a page before the mountain fell, where they combined threw only a handful of punches. All might's punches, which were only about town level at absolute best, aren't really close to powerful enough to cause that much damage within a handful of blows. maybe eventually, but it would take a lot, a lot more.

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#105 Posted by FireStarLord73194 (3745 posts) - - Show Bio

All Might has the edge in speed but Ben has the edge in strength and durability. And the fact that All Might gets drained so easily and eventually transforms back into a frail man is evidence enough that Ben would win. Ben can take a punch and never gives up. He can tank a lot of All Mights punches however I don't think All Might would be able to tank too many punches from Ben. I give Ben the win with mid difficulty

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#106 Posted by Sy8000 (34323 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Ben's a mountain buster and has hurt more durable beings than All Might so that kinda does put him above All Might.

When has Ben destroyed a mountain or done anything close to it?

When has All Might ever made city level shockwaves?

The above feat would approach that level considering the size was far above what it actually destroyed. Not a large city, but if the force were adjusted it would certainly destroy a small one.

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#107 Edited by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle123axe:

sue states there is no mechanism inside to do what it was meant to do, which doesn't really prove it being hollow. at all. it was made to reverse magnetic poles, and sue noted that there was nothing inside to help it do that, not nothing inside at all. Sorry jash, but thing saying that he found a weak point has NOTHING to do with it being hollow, karnak for example, everything he hits isn't hollow, having a weak point means that there is a flaw in its structure that make it easy to break or bring down, hollowness has nothing to do with it.

Karnak has special abilities which let him sense weak points. Regardless either way the feat is questionable.

it was shown being built, and at that, it was shown being solid while doing so. that is not an indication, that is on panel shown.

I don't see anything which shows it was solid on the inside.....

really, the evidence indicates it not being hollow, but the scans you are using are the ones with no evidence on the contrary, especially the sue scan. if something appears solid and was shown to be solid while it was being built, then it should be solid.

I'm not seeing how....Can you explain?

sue assumed, because of it's function, that there would be something inside that allowed it to do what it was built to do, but she didn't find anything inside it that could be used in that way, that doesn't mean that there was nothing inside. you're looking a little too close to find details for something that isn't there.

Again it looks transparent to me. And I'm not seeing this proof that it is solid on the inside. Regardless even ignoring that thing himself speculates he could have hit a weak point and got a lucky punch.

cap and some of the others were caught at the edge of the blast, thing and the rest of the FF IIRC were closer to the center

Can I have an issue number? This still seems odd to me.

he was phased solid inside of thing

I am skeptical he had his density as high as possible. I have seen a scan of vision no selling an attack from the thing before. Granted I am not sure about the issue so take it with a grain of salt (could be out of context).

to be fair, it was not more than a handful of punches from each, because over the course of the fight, they were moving, and also it was only them letting loose that caused that, as it was shown that they only really started pummeling the blood brothers a page before the mountain fell, where they combined threw only a handful of punches. All might's punches, which were only about town level at absolute best, aren't really close to powerful enough to cause that much damage within a handful of blows. maybe eventually, but it would take a lot, a lot more.

Honestly the mountain doesn't look that huge to me. I honestly think if All Might were to fight his equal underneath that mountain he could generate the same result.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

These panels are probably the clearest views of the mountains. However its still hard to compare there size to get an understanding of the scale IMO:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

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#108 Edited by Toratorn (5262 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Since the crystal tower feat was already adressed...

No he did. "The basilisk has waited to long. Planned too long to be stopped now"

Marvel two in one 17.
Marvel two in one 17.

He had begun the chain reaction before his fight with the thing.

Wrong? His "planning" and prep was him teleporting around making volcanoes with his power.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Power from his eyebeams literally undoes the eruption at the end of the story:

No Caption Provided

"Chain reaction" thing was about many volcanoes on Earth causing the planet to go off its orbit.

The "dust cloud" is a side effect of All Might's punch. The actual punch itself would be far more powerful. Meanwhile Grimm only needs to tank a portion of the explosion in the scan you posted. As for it being a "fiery explosion" all might isn't going to burn Grimm. Heat resistance isn't relevant.

A huge portion since he was in the epicenter of it. And taking even that portion of blast would take more durability that tanking a punch that gave 1/2 of the enrgy to raise that dust cloud.

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#109 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn:

Wrong? His "planning" and prep was him teleporting around making volcanoes with his power. Thing was right

Yea and teleporting the volcano is what made it active. Not the concussive force of his eye beams. Thing was also knocked out at the end of marvel two in one 17 IIRC.

Power from his eyebeams literally undoes the eruption at the end of the story:

The scan also makes mentions that his eye beams had "reached" full power which implies he needed time to charge them up. He wasn't just casually shooting all his eye blasts with that level of force.

"Chain reaction" thing was about many volcanoes on Earth causing the planet to go off its orbit.

Well clearly Basilisk wasn't present at all the volcanoes across the planet meaning he must have started those reactions before his fight with the thing.

A huge portion since he was in the epicenter of it. And taking even that portion of blast would take more durability that tanking a punch that gave 1/2 of the enrgy to raise that dust cloud.

It doesn't. All mights punch created a shockwave which surrounded several buildings. And again building busting is nothing to all might. He is a casual multi-building buster.

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#110 Edited by HigherPower (11911 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000 said:

The above feat would approach that level considering the size was far above what it actually destroyed. Not a large city, but if the force were adjusted it would certainly destroy a small one.

In no way was that feat approaching city level. Sure, the shockwaves towered the buildings it destroyed and reached dozens of stories high, but that was because AFO and Toshinori were midair when they clashed. You can look at the amount of area the attack covered and see it's multi-city block level, not to mention it was a shared feat so All Might only contributed half of that force.

The feat itself is multi-city block level, but All Might can be argued at town level when healthy since he was languished and transfered OFA to Midoriya by the time he completed that.

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#111 Posted by Toratorn (5262 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:

@toratorn:

Yea and teleporting the volcano is what made it active. Not the concussive force of his eye beams. Thing was also knocked out at the end of marvel two in one 17 IIRC.

What is this, mental gymnastics? He didn't teleport a volcano, did you even reaqd the scans? It's literally described as earth rising thanks to his power outbursts.

The scan also makes mentions that his eye beams had "reached" full power which implies he needed time to charge them up. He wasn't just casually shooting all his eye blasts with that level of force.

Only nowhere was it said or implied that the beams needed charging. And there was zero indication of him charging them. You're pulling excuses out of your ass now.

Well clearly Basilisk wasn't present at all the volcanoes across the planet meaning he must have started those reactions before his fight with the thing.

Once again, did you even read the scans? The plan was only underway, and the New York volcano was the third one he had created.

It doesn't. All mights punch created a shockwave which surrounded several buildings. And again building busting is nothing to all might. He is a casual multi-building buster.

A literal nuke-style fireball that dwarfed NY high-rises (which were already a good distance away from the blast) is something that's obviously and ridiculously above multi-building busting.

Being casual multi-building buster in Marvel Universe is literally a poor man's job that means getting your ass kicked by Spider-Man every week or two.

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#112 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn:

What is this, mental gymnastics? He didn't teleport a volcano, did you even reaqd the scans? It's literally described as earth rising thanks to his power outbursts.

I've read the story arc. The thing went to the savage land and than he went to New York. Basilisk even mentioned that the thing wont withstand the shock of teleportation:

No Caption Provided

Its restated in marvel team up 47:

No Caption Provided

Only nowhere was it said or implied that the beams needed charging. And there was zero indication of him charging them. You're pulling excuses out of your ass now.

Your own scan makes mention of the beams reaching full power.....

Once again, did you even read the scans? The plan was only underway, and the New York volcano was the third one he had created.

Read the above scan. Regardless even assuming teleportated to the volcano it was active as soon as it rose in New York.

A literal nuke-style fireball that dwarfed NY high-rises (which were already a good distance away from the blast) is something that's obviously and ridiculously above multi-building busting.

Being casual multi-building buster in Marvel Universe is literally a poor man's job that means getting your ass kicked by Spider-Man every week or two.

That blast wasn't nuke level....

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#113 Edited by Toratorn (5262 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: funny thing, the first scan mentions NOTHING about teleporting the volcano, and the second ones feature Spider-Man, an unreliable nararator, saying something that Basilisk NEVER said (teleporting volcano). In fact, my second scan specifically describes it as "EARTH ROSE", not something like "VOLCANO APPEARED OUT OF THIN AIR", something you conviniently ignored.

Narration describing beams reaching full power in no way implies that prior beams were weaker. It's all about you assuming all the other beams were half-assed when there was no implication of that.

And neither was the blast merely multi-building level.

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#114 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:

@jashro44: funny thing, the first scan mentions NOTHING about teleporting the volcano, and the second ones feature Spider-Man, an unreliable nararator, saying something that Basilisk NEVER said (teleporting volcano). In fact, my second scan specifically describes it as "EARTH ROSE", not something like "VOLCANO APPEARED OUT OF THIN AIR", something you conviniently ignored.

Spider-man heard the same dialogue we did. It would be random if he didn't understand what Basilisk was saying. Even assuming your interpretation is correct over spider-man's the volcano was active almost immediately. So his eye beams didn't cause it.

@toratorn said:

Narration describing beams reaching full power in no way implies that prior beams were weaker. It's all about you assuming all the other beams were half-assed when there was no implication of that.

Yes it does. If it needs to reach full power than that means he can't just shoot full power blasts all willy nilly.

@toratorn said:

And neither was the blast merely multi-building level.

Your entitled to believe whatever you want.

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#115 Posted by Sy8000 (34323 posts) - - Show Bio

In no way was that feat approaching city level. Sure, the shockwaves towered the buildings it destroyed and reached dozens of stories high, but that was because AFO and Toshinori were midair when they clashed. You can look at the amount of area the attack covered and see it's multi-city block level, not to mention it was a shared feat so All Might only contributed half of that force.

The feat itself is multi-city block level, but All Might can be argued at town level when healthy since he was languished and transfered OFA to Midoriya by the time he completed that.

It was a lot more than dozens of stories. The area the attack covered isn't an adequate gauge when the attack spread both upward and outward.

You're equating the size of the attack to the level of force a direct attack would have when the gap between the two is massive. I think the vine downplays how absurdly more powerful an attack has to be to cause damage as a shockwave compared to destroying something by hitting it directly. If you consent to the shockwave being multi-city block level then the blow would have to be easily city level even if you only attribute half of it to All Might.

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#116 Posted by Toratorn (5262 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Spider-man heard the same dialogue we did. It would be random if he didn't understand what Basilisk was saying. Even assuming your interpretation is correct over spider-man's the volcano was active almost immediately. So his eye beams didn't cause it.

He heard the same dialogue and clearly made a wrong conclusion seeing how Basilisk didn't imply moving the volcano and explicitly mentioned that previous volcano was created by his own powers. Especially considering that the volcano rising caused an earthquake on Manhattan, which I have already shown with prior scans, and that wouldn't have even happened if the volcano was simply teleported there.

Not only that, but do you even know how volcanoes work? If the volcano is simply taken from one place and moved into another, there is nothing to support the steady flow of lava. In the story the volcano was steadily erupting. He definitely created a new volcano with his powers, just like he did it the first time.

Yes it does. If it needs to reach full power than that means he can't just shoot full power blasts all willy nilly.

No it doesn't. He literally had several seconds to "charge it", so why was he not "charging" them before, when he had more than enough time for that?

The answer is simple: he was charging them and was firing full-power beams all the time.

Your entitled to believe whatever you want.

Ironic coming from you.

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#117 Edited by HigherPower (11911 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000:

You're equating the size of the attack to the level of force a direct attack would have when the gap between the two is massive. I think the vine downplays how absurdly more powerful an attack has to be to cause damage as a shockwave compared to destroying something by hitting it directly.

I made this exact argument in my recent CaV defending All Might, so I'm not foreign to that concept. I can acknowledge the belief that generating multi-city block busting power with the shockwaves of an attack mandates the direct punches being several times stronger. The force carried in All Might's fist would have to be offensively powerful for the excess force to have incited that much damage, but you can't just call it city level without hvaing some calc on it first. Until you know how many times more powerful All Might's punch would have been in comparison to the DC he released (or generally how powerful a punch has to be to release shockwaves at all) then you can't slap labels on feats and call it a day. People could abuse that easily if everyone adhered to that logic.

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#118 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn:

He heard the same dialogue and clearly made a wrong conclusion seeing how Basilisk didn't imply moving the volcano and explicitly mentioned that previous volcano was created by his own powers. Especially considering that the volcano rising caused an earthquake on Manhattan, which I have already shown with prior scans, and that wouldn't have even happened if the volcano was simply teleported there.

Either way the volcano was active as soon as it rose.

Not only that, but do you even know how volcanoes work? If the volcano is simply taken from one place and moved into another, there is nothing to support the steady flow of lava. In the story the volcano was steadily erupting. He definitely created a new volcano with his powers, just like he did it the first time.

Blame it on WIS but that is the explanation we were provided with.

No it doesn't. He literally had several seconds to "charge it", so why was he not "charging" them before, when he had more than enough time for that?

Because spider-man showed up to challenge him and he never had the chance and than went off to terrorize civilians for some reason?

The answer is simple: he was charging them and was firing full-power beams all the time.

Than why is it stated at the very end his eye beams reach full power?

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#119 Edited by Toratorn (5262 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44 said:

Either way the volcano was active as soon as it rose.

I don't see how this is relevant to anything.

Blame it on WIS but that is the explanation we were provided with.

Explanation Basilisk provided featured no hints of teleporting volvcanoes bullshit. Stop with mental gymnastics for once.

Because spider-man showed up to challenge him and he never had the chance and than went off to terrorize civilians for some reason?

He was literally standing there monologuing and had all the time to charge them, and that was in the beginning of the fight with Spider-Man. Almost every other next shot had enough time for him to charge them. AND he was trying to kill them all the time. That and there was ZERO visual implication of him charging - like, I dunno, eyes glowing, energy aura or whatever. And it was the same every time. The last time he didn't even get the chance to charge them - he was KOed outright.

Than why is it stated at the very end his eye beams reach full power?

For a colorful description of the situation.

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#120 Posted by jashro44 (50370 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: We're going in circles. I don't see this discussion going anywhere.

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#121 Posted by Toratorn (5262 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I mean, I'm not the one nitpicking at the pretty clear-cut feat and performing mental gymnastics to downplay said feat.

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#122 Posted by Sy8000 (34323 posts) - - Show Bio

I made this exact argument in my recent CaV defending All Might, so I'm not foreign to that concept. I can acknowledge the belief that generating multi-city block busting power with the shockwaves of an attack mandates the direct punches being several times stronger. The force carried in All Might's fist would have to be offensively powerful for the excess force to have incited that much damage, but you can't just call it city level without hvaing some calc on it first. Until you know how many times more powerful All Might's punch would have been in comparison to the DC he released (or generally how powerful a punch has to be to release shockwaves at all) then you can't slap labels on feats and call it a day. People could abuse that easily if everyone adhered to that logic.

Are you asking me to use calcs? I think you know the issues those present.

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#123 Posted by HigherPower (11911 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000: And that is exactly why you can't call All Might city level. There's no way to ascertain it without spieling into wonky calcs. Tbh the only calcs I would consider accepting are speed calcs since they're just distance divided by time.

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#124 Posted by Sy8000 (34323 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000: And that is exactly why you can't call All Might city level. There's no way to ascertain it without spieling into wonky calcs. Tbh the only calcs I would consider accepting are speed calcs since they're just distance divided by time.

If you're asking for a solid number no. But the gap between shockwaves and direct hits should be fairly evident. The strongest humans on earth trading blows couldn't damage tissue paper.

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#125 Edited by HigherPower (11911 posts) - - Show Bio

@sy8000: It being evident doesn't detract from the actuality that there's no substantiation to label it a city level. That logic could just as well be used to call All Might mountain level. Observe:

"AM destroyed multiple city blocks with the shockwave of his punch. Since he did this with the shockwave, the direct force of his punch had to be many, many times greater. So the actual feat is well above multi-city block level and easily mountain level."

That's literally what you're doing, except you called it city level and not mountain level since city level seems more reasonable. But it's not concrete and wholly dependent on someone's interpretation.

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#126 Edited by Sy8000 (34323 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower said:

That's literally what you're doing, except you called it city level and not mountain level since city level seems more reasonable. But it's not concrete and wholly dependent on someone's interpretation.

This is the difficulty in judging mid tier feats, which has always been the case and applies to nearly every character.

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#128 Posted by Toratorn (5262 posts) - - Show Bio

Why shadow bumping this mismatch? Ben still finger flicks.

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#129 Edited by BlitzSikes (1918 posts) - - Show Bio

Really off topic,

I really love my hero academy. Def a surprise and I think it's going to be as big as Naruto , DBZ, one piece etc

On topic, I'm only up to season 2 and from what I've seen so far, all might only has speed advantage.

Are we factoring in his injury?

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#130 Posted by deactivated-5b644429af26e (23 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#132 Posted by Toratorn (5262 posts) - - Show Bio

And once again this mismatch was bumped. Ben still finger-flicks.

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#133 Posted by TonyStark6999 (1827 posts) - - Show Bio
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#134 Posted by Eeef (1468 posts) - - Show Bio

Ben clobbers him.