Alice(S.A.O) vs Saber(Fate serie)

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floydfromhell97

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Rules:

  • In characters
  • All at their strongest
  • Canon Feats only
  • Random Encounter-No Knowledge
  • Wins by Death or K.O.
  • Battle takes place in NEUTRAL UNIVERSE
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GXrevs06

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Saber bodies her

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kell_saloks

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#3 kell_saloks  Online

I checked Alice's respect thread and I don't see why Saber stomps

Alice has a lightning timing feat and she's faster than Asuna and Kirito combined who are both hypersonic (Kirito can low effort deflect sniper rifle rounds inches away from his face and Asuna is considered his peer)

Strength wise Saber seems to have an advantage but not a huge one.

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WiseforAges

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Alice should do well against Saber but well lose out to Sabers superior strength she possess.

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DevoidRuby

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Saber stomps.

SAO high tiers are all causal bulllet timers, while characters who can casually bullet time are considered fodder to mediocre servants.

Saber is a Top Servant.

Nevermind that Alice has no way to kill Saber through Avalon’s regeneration and shield along with Excalibur being a one shot and Saber having enough strength to break Alice’s arms by clashing with her via scaling to Apocrypha Servants.

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kell_saloks

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#6  Edited By kell_saloks  Online

@devoidruby:

1) Bullshit, Saber is not a casual bullet timer and she's not considered close to being a crap servant the only people who are casually above super sonic are the top tier Servants like Gilgamesh and Cu who completely overwhelm her in terms of speed regardless Alice is still faster at minimum since she can easily overwhelm Kirito who is low hypersonic due to being able to parry sniper rifle rounds at near point blank range.

EVEN IF we don't do that feat she actually reacts to lightning in the web novel so she's still ooms faster than Saber.

In fact we see in the anime Saber fail to casually deal with bullets and in the light novel she struggles to her breaking point to deflect bullets from Lancer's machine guns. (Something Kirito would be able to do with low effort)

2) OP didn't give Saber unlimited Parana, Saber's Avalon uses up a lot of prana so she wouldn't be able to keep her invulnerability up forever. So Saber's not invincible if you use common sense instead of wanking

3) You want to scale based off of others feats that are so beyond their displayed ones? Ok, since you wanna scale Saber beyond what she's shown then we'll just use MFTL scaling Alice since she can casually overwhelm FTL Kirito (who dodged light beam attacks with difficulty) and Asuna AT THE SAME TIME (Who is Kirito's peer in speed) ergo she statues Saber.

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reikai

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@kell_saloks: There are no lightspeed attacks in Alicization. It's complete nonsense and if you tried that line of garbage, Gilgamesh and others are all lightspeed/FTL in other parts of the Fate series and Saber scales. So you're still wrong about SAO having any kind of speed advantage. Saber is baseline hypersonic. Kirito isn't.

The entire thought that he is is based off the name of a weapon from GGO, to which there is no evidence that the weapon behaves like it's real world counterpart. To suggest Reki Kawahara did any research at all into such things is absolutely laughable. He couldn't even be bothered to research how Games work. He's not Kenichi Sonada; a talented writer and artist who actually has an affinity for and love of firearms to the point of obsession and can go into explicit detail about them.

Even if we did allow for Kirito to react at low-hypersonic range, he's still slower than Servants. Saber and co are easily double-digit mach speeds and are significantly better fighters.

Loading Video...

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kell_saloks

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#8 kell_saloks  Online

@reikai said:

@kell_saloks: There are no lightspeed attacks in Alicization. It's complete nonsense and if you tried that line of garbage, Gilgamesh and others are all lightspeed/FTL in other parts of the Fate series and Saber scales. So you're still wrong about SAO having any kind of speed advantage. Saber is baseline hypersonic. Kirito isn't.

The entire thought that he is is based off the name of a weapon from GGO, to which there is no evidence that the weapon behaves like it's real world counterpart. To suggest Reki Kawahara did any research at all into such things is absolutely laughable. He couldn't even be bothered to research how Games work. He's not Kenichi Sonada; a talented writer and artist who actually has an affinity for and love of firearms to the point of obsession and can go into explicit detail about them.

Even if we did allow for Kirito to react at low-hypersonic range, he's still slower than Servants. Saber and co are easily double-digit mach speeds and are significantly better fighters.

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Hypersonic my ass

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None of these feats are even close to hypersonic and regardless of what you think how unquantifiable the speed of Kirito deflecting the Hecate round is we know it's at minimum as fast as a anti-material sniper rifle round which is in the high 2,000's feet per second to the low 3,000's feet per second.

Even IF we ignore that she still casually intercepted a bolt of lightning which is beyond ANYTHING Saber has done and Kirito's light speed evasion is confirmed in the anime translation where as Saber never fought anyone FTL unlike Gilgamesh or the other high tiers of Fate.

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kell_saloks

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#9 kell_saloks  Online
  1. With a faint 'sha', the ray of light surged out again. If it wasn't
  2. for Kirito springing to the left immediately before that, the light
  3. would have likely gone through his right leg. The light ray that
  4. precariously missed stabbed into the marble floor and once again
  5. caused a small explosion. When the light faded, a bright-red hole
  6. remained melted into the surface there.

If we're gonna wank Servants FTL than it's only right to do the same with Alice who btw is still faster than two FTL characters so even if Saber was FTL she still gets blitzed since she can't fight two FTL characters at once.

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Undeckedlion395

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The blondie with blue eyes, armor, and blue clothes win.

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kasya_carey

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Undeckedlion395

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The one whose name starts with the letter A.

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DevoidRuby

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So, somebody thinks they know what they’re talking about.

How cute.

@devoidruby:

1) Bullshit, Saber is not a casual bullet timer

You’re right. She isn’t.

Random Dead Apostles and Executors like Jester, Kirei and Hansa who are all fodder to Artoria however, are.

She’s vastly beyond being a causal bullet timer.

and she's not considered close to being a crap servant the only people who are casually above super sonic are the top tier Servants like Gilgamesh and Cu

Cu who was unable to match a massively weakened Saber in CQC and needed to resort to his Noble Phantasm?

The same Artoria who by Charlemagne’s (Who’s comparable to Cu) words is so vastly beyond him to the point he can’t even budge her?

who completely overwhelm her in terms of speed regardless Alice is still faster at minimum since she can easily overwhelm Kirito who is low hypersonic due to being able to parry sniper rifle rounds at near point blank range.

Which is fodder to Servants.

EVEN IF we don't do that feat she actually reacts to lightning in the web novel so she's still ooms faster than Saber.

Which would be a massive outlier and thus, useless.

In fact we see in the anime Saber fail to casually deal with bullets and in the light novel she struggles to her breaking point to deflect bullets from Lancer's machine guns. (Something Kirito would be able to do with low effort)

Lancelot does indeed overwhelm Saber with guns.

Noble Phantasm amped Guns. Those guns, by feats, would shred Kirito.

2) OP didn't give Saber unlimited Parana, Saber's Avalon uses up a lot of prana so she wouldn't be able to keep her invulnerability up forever. So Saber's not invincible if you use common sense instead of wanking

Give me a single citation of Avalon taking massive amounts of mana?

And the strongest incarnation of Saber is Fate/Extella Saber.

Her master there is perfectly capable of ‘supplying’ numerous Top Servants at once.

So even if Saber‘s Avalon did take massive amounts of mana, Hakuno could casually fuel it.

3) You want to scale based off of others feats that are so beyond their displayed ones? Ok, since you wanna scale Saber beyond what she's shown then we'll just use MFTL scaling Alice since she can casually overwhelm FTL Kirito (who dodged light beam attacks with difficulty) and Asuna AT THE SAME TIME (Who is Kirito's peer in speed) ergo she statues Saber.

The difference is between your wank and my usage of actual feats is... well...

One is consistent and backed up by numerous feats and statements and the other isn’t?

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Theorder14

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#14  Edited By Theorder14

@kell_saloks:

Bullshit, Saber is not a casual bullet timer and she's not considered close to being a crap servant the only people who are casually above super sonic are the top tier Servants like Gilgamesh and Cu who completely overwhelm her in terms of speed

It has been stated that Saber have went faster than the speed of sound several times in the novels against her fight against Lancer. Fate zero adaption often puts slow motion so that we can actually see them fight. In ufotable's latest adaptation, the fights is more fast paced.

For example

No Caption Provided

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Also, i'm calling bullshit on Alice being FTL. I've read the alicization novel so you won't fool me. If that's enough for a character to become FTL then i guess lots of other character with similiar feats r FTL too?

OT: Saber wins imo. With precogntion like instincts + superior stats overall.

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kell_saloks

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#15 kell_saloks  Online

@devoidruby: So everything you don't like that shows Alice is faster is an outlier (even though she's never been shown once to be inferior to Kirito in speed) but you ignored all the averages of Servants like Saber operating massively below Hypersonic.

Lemme guess

Loading Video...

Kuzuki is totally moving at hyper sonic speeds right here huh?

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AGrape

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Uhh Alice stomps, literally not debatable.

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DevoidRuby

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@devoidruby: So everything you don't like that shows Alice is faster is an outlier (even though she's never been shown once to be inferior to Kirito in speed) but you ignored all the averages of Servants like Saber operating massively below Hypersonic.

The absolute best feats in SAO goes

Kirito struggles to deflect automatic gunfire -> Kirito reacts to a sniper -> Kirito dodges Lightning -> Kirito dodges light

There is a significant jump between those.

Lemme guess

Loading Video...

Kuzuki is totally moving at hyper sonic speeds right here huh?

Yes, he is.

Since you know the series so well, you obviously know Kuzuki was amped by Caster’s Age of Gods tier Magecraft right?

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DevoidRuby

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@agrape: I’m curious to know how Alice gets past Artoria‘a superior stats, skill, precognition, regeneration, beam sword, dimensional shield and greater experience.

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kell_saloks

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#19 kell_saloks  Online

@kell_saloks:

Bullshit, Saber is not a casual bullet timer and she's not considered close to being a crap servant the only people who are casually above super sonic are the top tier Servants like Gilgamesh and Cu who completely overwhelm her in terms of speed

It has been stated that Saber have went faster than the speed of sound several times in the novels against her fight against Lancer. Fate zero adaption often puts slow motion so that we can actually see them fight. In ufotable's latest adaptation, the fights is more fast paced.

For example

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Also, i'm calling bullshit on Alice being FTL. I've read the alicization novel so you won't fool me. If that's enough for a character to become FTL then i guess lots of other character with similiar feats r FTL too?

OT: Saber wins imo. With precogntion like instincts + superior stats overall.

The only mentions of saber going above super sonic that I recall is with prana bursts or boosts from command seals, Saber consistently struggled many times with attacks at super sonic speed.

She's in now way or form hypersonic. Alice being FTL is based on scaling from Kirito who dodged light speed projectiles and Alice is confirm ably much faster than Kirito and Asuna.

FFS Kirito here replicates the same dam feats of speed Archer vs Cu and Saber vs Cu do but more casually and while also avoiding light speed attacks at point blank

Kirito Vs GIF

These attacks are lightspeed and not telegraphed per the transcript of the novel

A more horrifying detail of that skill was how it contained absolutely no prior movements before the discharge of light, such as accumulating the light or thrusting the sword. At the very least, Eugeo couldn’t guess at when the nonchalantly shifting slender sword would emit the ray of light from his position.

It's as valid as any of the bullshit scaling Nasu fans use.

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kell_saloks

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#20 kell_saloks  Online

@kell_saloks said:

@devoidruby: So everything you don't like that shows Alice is faster is an outlier (even though she's never been shown once to be inferior to Kirito in speed) but you ignored all the averages of Servants like Saber operating massively below Hypersonic.

The absolute best feats in SAO goes

Kirito struggles to deflect automatic gunfire -> Kirito reacts to a sniper -> Kirito dodges Lightning -> Kirito dodges light

There is a significant jump between those.

Lemme guess

Loading Video...

Kuzuki is totally moving at hyper sonic speeds right here huh?

Yes, he is.

Since you know the series so well, you obviously know Kuzuki was amped by Caster’s Age of Gods tier Magecraft right?I k

Kuzuki was not amped to hypersonic speeds lmao, if he was Shirou would have never even gotten the chance to acknowledge Kuzuki's presence.

GTFO, not even Medea's magic can amp a Master to above hypersonic speed xD

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DevoidRuby

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Kuzuki was not amped to hypersonic speeds lmao, if he was Shirou would have never even gotten the chance to acknowledge Kuzuki's presence.

GTFO, not even Medea's magic can amp a Master to above hypersonic speed xD

Shirou was able to tag and contend with Kuzuki due to Tracing giving him the stats of the person He traces it from. He traces from Archer. So you do the maths.

I do have to agree there. If I only I had another example of Casters amping regular Humans to be able to contend with Servants.

Oh wait. I do. I have 2 actually.

Shakespeare amps his master in his sub category war to the point he wins it. Dumas amps a policeman to the point he can keep up with and tag Alcides.

So if random Writers like Dumas and Shakespeare can do it, why can‘t a top 5 Age of Gods level mage?

Now then, are you actually going to give ways Alice gets around Artoria‘s superior stats, skill, precognition, experience, regeneration, immunity to magic, shielding from Avalon and beam sword?

or continue to cry and spam outlier feats?

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Theorder14

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#22  Edited By Theorder14

@kell_saloks:

The only mentions of saber going above super sonic that I recall is with prana bursts or boosts from command seals, Saber consistently struggled many times with attacks at super sonic speed.

It was stated Saber went faster than the speed of sound in their second fight and she neither used prana burst or command seals there.

Quote

"The holy sword intertwined with the demonic lance, in direct opposition; the sparks flying were simply dazzling. The clash between the precious artifacts of legend, driven by strength and speed far beyond that of a human, passed the speed of sound, nearing the speed of light. Observation had long since lost meaning in this momentous battle. Those divine skills, pushed to the limits at the point of this fierce battle, were having a supreme contest between the two.

An unknown number of rounds had been fought; perhaps tens of rounds, perhaps hundreds of rounds. It was simply impossible to determine with a mortal eye. After the lance and sword of the two clashed, they finally separated, and moved away from each other."

There's also the fact that they fought so fast that Irisviel couldn't see their movement at all so i find it funny that ur using anime medium to low ball their speed just because we can see them.

She's in now way or form hypersonic. Alice being FTL is based on scaling from Kirito who dodged light speed projectiles and Alice is confirm ably much faster than Kirito and Asuna.

FFS Kirito here replicates the same dam feats of speed Archer vs Cu and Saber vs Cu do but more casually and while also avoiding light speed attacks at point blank

And i'm calling bullshit on that considering that Kirito have consistently gotten tagged by far slower atks. That's clearly an outlier.

Even though it was stated the servants moved near speed of light. You don't see me saying they're that fast since that's not their consistent showings.

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kell_saloks

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#23 kell_saloks  Online

@devoidruby: Yeah no, Shirou explicitly had difficulty seeing Servants fight so he didn't have hyper sonic reaction at time yet still reacted to Kuzu BEFORE his swords tracing ability came out.

2) I'ma just do what you do and call them outlier feats.

3) Alice is faster and has the equivalent of an AOE NP that she can control with her mind to curve and bend around corners, each pedal having the weight of a boulder and being sharp enough to crack one just by touching. The sheer DPS of her ability (which makes up for it's low individual damage output with combined quantity) and it's ability to tag people as fast as Kirito/Eugo while holding bad will allow Alice to circumvent the need to go sword to sword combat and simply just shred Saber to giblets.

Even if Saber got close Alice per her displayed feats is much much stronger than steel and has the ability to regenerate damage herself so she could tank a few hits with out dying.

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AGrape

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#24  Edited By AGrape

@devoidruby said:

@agrape: I’m curious to know how Alice gets past Artoria‘a superior stats, skill, precognition, regeneration, beam sword, dimensional shield and greater experience.

Because she has some of the best hax in her verse, being known as one of the greatest sacred arts user. Also her sword being able to split into thousands of blades, each being compared to Kirito in speed.

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Theorder14

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@agrape said:
@devoidruby said:

@agrape: I’m curious to know how Alice gets past Artoria‘a superior stats, skill, precognition, regeneration, beam sword, dimensional shield and greater experience.

Because she has some of the best hax in her verse, being known as one of the greatest sacred arts user. Also her sword being able to split into thousands of blades, each being compared to Kirito in speed.

Don't see how that would help against Saber's precog + Excaliblast.

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DevoidRuby

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@devoidruby: Yeah no, Shirou explicitly had difficulty seeing Servants fight so he didn't have hyper sonic reaction at time yet still reacted to Kuzu BEFORE his swords tracing ability came out.

He figured out Kuzuki‘a fists were buffed with magic and looked at Rin after Kuzuki moved from him. Nothing says he outright reacted to him at any time.

2) I'ma just do what you do and call them outlier feats.

The 3 times its happened in Canon don’t make it consistent?

3) Alice is faster and has the equivalent of an AOE NP that she can control with her mind to curve and bend around corners, each pedal having the weight of a boulder and being sharp enough to crack one just by touching. The sheer DPS of her ability (which makes up for it's low individual damage output with combined quantity) and it's ability to tag people as fast as Kirito/Eugo while holding bad will allow Alice to circumvent the need to go sword to sword combat and simply just shred Saber to giblets.

Even if Saber got close Alice per her displayed feats is much much stronger than steel and has the ability to regenerate damage herself so she could tank a few hits with out dying.

So Saber is still several times faster as I’ve proven, you still have yet to post any strength feats for Alice to disprove Saber being stronger, ignore how Saber can just as easily walk through Alice’s petals with Avalon or nuke her with her VASTLY superior Excalibur and proceed to bring up Alice’s hilariously worse healing while ignoring Saber’s precognition and numerous other advantages.

So we’ve come to the conclusion Saber stomps Alice.

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AGrape

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It's another Nasuwank thread...welp.

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DevoidRuby

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@agrape said:
@devoidruby said:

@agrape: I’m curious to know how Alice gets past Artoria‘a superior stats, skill, precognition, regeneration, beam sword, dimensional shield and greater experience.

Because she has some of the best hax in her verse, being known as one of the greatest sacred arts user. Also her sword being able to split into thousands of blades, each being compared to Kirito in speed.

Her sacred Arts get negated by Saber’s passive magic resistance, her petals get vaporised by Saber’s Excalibur or ignored via Avalon and she has no chance in CQC.

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Theorder14

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@agrape said:

It's another Nasuwank thread...welp.

How about actually debating and explain why exactly Alice wins instead of calling it a wank thread. This is a battle forum after all.

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AGrape

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@theorder14: You literally ignore vastly super speed by bringing up Saber's weak precog and claim she's resistant to hax she has no feats against. I'm not sure what you want from me.

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Theorder14

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@agrape: Specify, what speed feats does Alice have exactly? I've read the novels and seen the anime and nowhere have i seen Alice having speed feats that is so much faster than Saber's.

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kell_saloks

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#32 kell_saloks  Online

@theorder14: I can dismiss your feat too

The two machine guns were not in any way inferior to the black knight’s angry howl; screeching hotly, they attacked Saber. The bullets, faster than the speed of sound, were still unable to surpass the speed of Saber’s sword. Nevertheless, the speed of twenty-odd bullets per second left her only able to parry.

Saber pushing herself at her best is overwhelmed by supersonic + projectiles putting her solidly below hypersonic. Heckler and Kotch MP3's have a muzzle velocity of 1,789 mph which is still lower than Kirito's casual bullet deflection of the hecate's 1,845 mph feat

Hell

Loading Video...

He deflects 3,000 feet per second muzzle velocity with casual ease where as Saber struggles routinely to go just going super sonic.

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Theorder14

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#33  Edited By Theorder14

@kell_saloks: Context. Do you know them?

Saber pushing herself at her best is overwhelmed by supersonic + projectiles putting her solidly below hypersonic. Heckler and Kotch MP3's have a muzzle velocity of 1,789 mph which is still lower than Kirito's casual bullet deflection of the hecate's 1,845 mph feat

Those bullets were enchanced by Berserker's Noble Phantasm making them far more powerful than usual bullets.

He deflects 3,000 feet per second muzzle velocity with casual ease where as Saber struggles routinely to go just going super sonic.

And you of course fail to mention that the prediction lines greatly aids Kirito here. You always fail to mention the important stuff.

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kell_saloks

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#34 kell_saloks  Online

@theorder14: 1) Proof that more powerful = muzzle velocity?

Damage enhancement via magic has nothing to do with the speed

2) Except false, him being able to see bullet lines only augments his perception not his actual speed

Related image

Bullet lines allow him to dodge but he's already fast enough to move his sword to intercept multiple bullets inches away from him.

Image result for sao  kirito deflect bullets

Even Sinon states

"At ten meters away you won't have time to see the bullet line and react"

No Caption Provided

Kirito's feat of deflecting the AM bullet was not reliant on a bullet line, he actually looks at where Sinon is looking at (No bullet line) and cuts the round in half with his own reflexes/perception

His exact words "I knew cause I could see your eyes through the lense of your scope" which is a feat of perception in being able to see the eyes perfectly of someone ten meters away.

How about we talk about you ignoring all the examples where servants are explicitly said to need command spells to achieve hyper sonic feats?

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Theorder14

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#35  Edited By Theorder14

@kell_saloks:

Damage enhancement via magic has nothing to do with the speed

The fact that ur comparing it to a conventional weapon is what is bugging me because i highly doubt that Kirito would be able to deflect Berserker's NP.

Quote

Berserker could confer the properties of a Noble Phantasm on the weapon in his hand, regardless of its origin or time period. Once it had been upgraded to the category of Noble Phantasm, the difference in power between the two weapon types of ‘sword’ and ‘firearm’ forced Saber into a decisively disadvantageous situation. Because the building's construction was not yet finished, a large number of paint cans were piled in one corner of the parking lot. One of the stray bullets struck them, and the calcined bullet caused the solvent to explode. The underground darkness was dissipated by red lotuses of flame.

How about we talk about you ignoring all the examples where servants are explicitly said to need command spells to achieve hyper sonic feats?

Such as? You merely posted some out of context anime scenes. Like Kuzuki? He was greatly amped by Caster's magic and Saber was also heavily nerfed due to having Shirou as master. We're using the strongest version here after all.

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#36  Edited By kell_saloks  Online

@theorder14: I actually don't doubt ALO Kirito can deflect Berseker's NP considering we actually see him casual parry projectiles moving faster than the listed velocity

Even Kirito's strength in ALO is ridiculous being able to take down the Gigas Cedar in five days with eugo, the Cigas Cedar has 232,315 HP.

Before their buffs Eugo and Kirito could only manage roughly 50 HP per day and it was confirmed 50 HP = 2,000 strikes with the axe

50 damage in ALO = 2,000 regular strikes with an axe stronger than steel

Both of them together dropped the damage down in five days. That's 46,463 divide that by two and you get 23231 divide that by 7200 seconds (which is two hours, Eugo and Kirito only did 4 hours total. 2 for each one) and you get 3.2 damage a second.

50 damage divided by two thousand is 0.025, times that by a hundred and basically one hundred hits with an ax stronger than steel = 2.5 damage so one hit from the weakest version of Alicization Kirito is STRONGER THAN ONE HUNDRED hits of a fit person with an axe stronger than steel. This is two years before his strength increases many times higher later on before he fights Alice.

And when he fights Alice her strength completely dwarfs his and Eugo's (in fact Eugo's arm goes numb from just hitting her blade) we know that Alice is at-least dozens of times greater because Asuna with using of the highest stats possibly available in the verse and was on par with Kirito at the time meaning they were at-least several times stronger than the beginning of ALO.

Yet Asuna was STILL below Alice and needed THREE strikes to match ONE of Alice's, meaning the striking strength of Alice can be anywhere from 600 times to a thousand times greater than a normal human SINGLE hits.

Then we're not including her ultimate which allows her to spam thousands of these attacks per second with her MIND.

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Theorder14

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#37  Edited By Theorder14

@kell_saloks:

I actually don't doubt ALO Kirito can deflect Berseker's NP considering we actually see him casual parry projectiles moving faster than the listed velocity

Irrelevant since Berserker's NP is far more destructive.

Quote.

Berserker could confer the properties of a Noble Phantasm on the weapon in his hand, regardless of its origin or time period. Once it had been upgraded to the category of Noble Phantasm, the difference in power between the two weapon types of ‘sword’ and ‘firearm’ forced Saber into a decisively disadvantageous situation. Because the building's construction was not yet finished, a large number of paint cans were piled in one corner of the parking lot. One of the stray bullets struck them, and the calcined bullet caused the solvent to explode. The underground darkness was dissipated by red lotuses of flame.

I'm not gonna discuss in-game mechanics and calcs with you. Yes, Kirito and Alice is impressive in their verse but i don't see how they stack up against top tier servants.

Tbh, i'd even say that Shirou with all canon feats would beat Kirito. Nvm Saber.

I can see that neither of us will budge on this one so let's just agree to disagree.

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Does Alice attacks high enough against Saber's Magical Resistance?

And how can she harm Saber if she's protected by Avalon?

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I mean, if you want to just high end everything then Servants in general are still faster than claims of just supersonic.

Like a demi-Servant from Artoria's court dodging and deflecting lasers.

https://streamable.com/6re9p

Calculated microsecond reaction time for a Phantom Servant that Jeanne or Artoria can fight fairly evenly.

No Caption Provided

Or the narration in Fate/Zero claiming they're approaching the speed of light.

Or Gilgamesh swatting away an arrow after it already passed by lightning-automated defenses.

Or even just a cyborg human like Hansa, a tier below Servants, deflecting the spread of bullets from a vampire and still be able to swing his blades so fast to make concrete blocks turn into mist and pass right through him.

Etc. Etc. There are a lot more to add there as well but in terms of consistency, it's a severe downplay to label them as just supersonic.

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#40 kell_saloks  Online

@theorder14:Because Arturia struggles with less in Act 16?

https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Fate/Zero:Act_16_Part_2

If she could really deflect a vulcan she would have been able to pass some pittiful SMG's which logically would be inferior.

Yeah no it's not game mechanics it's a legit system used to gauge the literal power levels of a target, and the feats do line up as it's stated a single pedal of hers which is smaller than a centimeter has the strength of a giant (which can one hit integrity knights who are in turn superior to start of series Kirito)

Engulfed in an immeasurable shimmer, Kirito was knocked

down, rendered immobile, with a groan.

Making full use of the opportunity contrived by his partner,

Eugeo clenched his teeth and ran forward.

However, the golden wind that attacked Kirito didn't just stop

there. It caused a noise like a chilly gale and turned to the left in

midair, sweeping at Eugeo from the side.

He could hardly stay on his feet after such an impact. As

though he was sent flying by a giant's palm, Eugeo collapsed onto

the right as well.

Each flake, measuring less than a cen long, was of an absurd

weight. Thrown onto the lawn, Eugeo experienced a burning pain

over his entire left arm that had shielded his face the instant the

golden zephyr assailed him and desperately held down his desire

to scream and writhe.

Her sword's so sharp that it can cause cuts with just wind gust from swinging her sword

A single, mere middle slash without feints or linked

techniques—it was what would be called a basic technique in

the «Aincrad style», «Horizontal». However, its speed and

weight were enough to make cold sweat gush out from me just

by gazing at it from the side. What cornered me without

difficulty in that battle on the eightieth floor was the

overwhelming degree of completeness in that single strike that

forgave neither evasion nor defense. It was a might that easily

pulverized my belief in the excellence of consecutive hit skills

that I held throughout my long years of living in VRMMOs.

Before Alice, still after having swung her sword, the four arms

of the two minions fell. Following that, despite how they should

have been beyond her reach, their torsos split apart around

their chests without a sound.

Her strength can easily cut through bodies harder than steel

However, Fist Fighters thought the opposite — strengthening their own bodies with Incarnation. Surpassing their original limits, they would strengthen their naked bodies with defensive force stronger than steel, and wield their fists with attacking power enough to crush boulders.

Showers of blood plunged into the sky like a reverse waterfall. The hands, feet and heads of the warriors were easily sliced from their bodies.

But again you underestimate her speed, she is casually faster than Kirito and Asuna who are at the bare minimum mach 10 in combat speed. Meaning she's at the very least mach 20 due to being able to keep up with them 2v1

Kirito seemed to have realized that fact and quickly stood up,

though he did take several more steps down with terrified

expression. Alice chased behind as though she was gliding.

The ensuing battle could be said to be Kirito's first battle in

these two years that had developed so one-sidedly.

Alice delivered slash after slash with the grace of a dancer.

Kirito tried his best to take them on but got unsightly blown

away each time. He would have chances at a counterattack if he

could dodge purely by shifting his body, but Alice's sword was

dreadfully quick with superb aim despite its hefty size, making it

extremely hard to evade them cleanly.

Scattered sparks from the collision whitened across her vision. She could barely discern the path of a second instantaneous attack.

Unblockable with a single strike.

Immediately making that judgment, Asuna charged at her opponent and launched a succession of rapid stabs.

Her third jab finally to parry the incoming strike. Switching to the offense, Asuna finally caught a glimpse of the attacker’s features.

She literally appears at one point instantaneous to Asuna.

Anyway Alice's trump card is her ultimate which is explicitly not a magical weapon so Saber's A Mana Resistance is irrelevant, Alice's weapon is closer to an NP and it's increbily high DPS would allow her to melt Saber and the only way to counter it would be with an Excalibur blast because the Fragrant Olive sword's petals are simply TOO small and fast to parry or block.

To be accurate, it didn't vanish. It would be more accurate to

say that it dispersed. The sword split into hundreds or thousands

of flakes and assailed Kirito as a golden tempest

This elegant swordswoman before her, wielding a weapon the weight of a boulder — was the world’s first true Bottom-Up AI, the highly adaptive artificial intelligence, ALICE? She was the goal of Project Alicization, and what RATH and the invaders both thirsted for — the center of everything.

It was unknown what sort of existence that small tree once was that seemed to be the origin of Alice's sacred instrument, but if the power within it was divided so small, into such great numbers—that is, if it pursued only accuracy, each petal ought to have lost much more of their might. No matter how Eugeo thought about it, having one flake that wasn't even a cen long possess the clout of a giant's fist, as he had experienced with his own body, defied that theory.

Each flake multiplies her striking power, she has anywhere from 200 to 2,000 flakes, before she use her super charged variant of an Ultimate that multiplies that number even further lets her completely blanket over a force of 2,000

That was a moment before a tempest of golden death blanketed the entire land. Alice hardened her heart and shut away the many screams reaching her ears. She would not permit that art to be ever used again. She would eliminate those arts users and the invocation for it from this land. Each time she swiped the grip gleaming with light in her right hand, the sharp petals followed suit and mowed down the enemy she looked down upon. The dark arts users wearing no metallic armor had their bodies pierced through without resistance and fell. Alice maintained the recollection release state until she was sure she had annihilated over ninety percent of the arts users unit estimated at two thousand.

That's going to be one ton of pressure in an area smaller than a centimeter, it's going to cut through Saber like ribbons.

The only way Saber is winning is if Alice lets her hit her with a full Excalibur blast

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#41  Edited By kell_saloks  Online

@requiemcross said:

Does Alice attacks high enough against Saber's Magical Resistance?

And how can she harm Saber if she's protected by Avalon?

Alice's main weapon is not magic based but divine and using conceptual powers so Magic Resistance will have no barring over it, it should also do perfectly fine in crushing Saber due to having a density of at-least one ton in a space less than a centimeter wide while also having its edges sharper than a sword.

Within Eugeo's sight as he shivered from the depths of his

heart, the innumerous golden flowers made a loud “jyakii” noise

in tandem. When he looked harder, he saw the tips of the four

petals, which have been smooth and rounded thus far, now

tapered into a point sharper than a slender sword's tip. He

wouldn't get away with just collapsing like earlier if he was

struck by such a thing. His skin would be torn apart and it would

probably even slice through his bones.

Just for clarification gusts of wind from her base attacks can slice through material tougher than steel with each blow and are so sharp that the gusts of wind from the blade can both one shot and mutilate two giant monsters in one blow where as Kirito took several actual physical hits to kill just one of the same creatures (Important to remember they were super durable).

With her weapons art ability she can summon hundreds to thousands of flakes that can perform all the feats she can do in her base form but at a more focused area (one ton smaller than centimeter worth of space while being as sharp as her base attacks) all of these flakes being able fast enough to tag Kirito/Eugo repeatedly.

And if that's not enough she can summon even more of these flakes with her Release Collection Ultimate.

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Now to explain simply why Artoria wins this.

Artoria’s speed vs Alice’s speed.

Alice’s best best is being FTE to Asuna, a casual billet timer. ignoring the ridiculous outliers.

Artoria has numerous supersonic feats, and scales to numerous others.

The holy sword intertwined with the demonic lance, in direct opposition; the sparks flying were simply dazzling. The clash between the precious artifacts of legend, driven by strength and speed far beyond that of a human, passed the speed of sound, nearing the speed of light. Observation had long since lost meaning in this momentous battle. Those divine skills, pushed to the limits at the point of this fierce battle, were having a supreme contest between the two.

An unknown number of rounds had been fought; perhaps tens of rounds, perhaps hundreds of rounds. It was simply impossible to determine with a mortal eye. After the lance and sword of the two clashed, they finally separated, and moved away from each other. ~ Fate/Zero

The Invisible Air that compresses the air and refracts light in an illusion can be used in another way. The instant the bounded field is released it can blow the opponent with a single long distance strike with a gale made out of the super high pressure of the condensed air.

And this was the application of Saber's plan. The point of holding the sword backward in a wide stance was for that― to accelerate the air strike even more.

Released from the golden sword, a jet of air comes out from behind Saber. By releasing her armor to increase her prana burst further, her body changes into a supersonic bullet.

At this point, Saber's speed is three times higher than normal. It's already too late for an ambush attack or an evasion the instant she steps forward. Even if Lancer's spear can deal a serious wound to Saber, he will receive a lethal strike the same instant. That is certainly a strike made to risk one's life for a certain victory, ready to even have her flesh cut or her bones severed. Breaking through the wall of air at several times the speed of sound, the shockwave of the rush blew the surrounding rubbles like leaves. ~ Fate/Zero

In an instant, the Red Saber leapt forth with a lion-like roar. The knight's stomp shook the earth, and the speed of the charge pierced the sound barrier. This jump was possible due to a skill Red Saber possessed, called Prana Burst. By instantaneously releasing the magic power carried by the arms or in the body, the knight could rush forward with a momentum like that of a bullet's, and swing the over-sized weapon with ease. ~ Fate/Apocrypha

The man, who at a glance looked like something that would appear in a horror game chasing after the main character, grinned beneath the cloth covering his face and gently drew the bow without a word. Then his fingers let go of the string, releasing a single arrow. At a speed far beyond the speed of the wind, beyond even the speed of sound. ~ Fate/Strange Fake

But the second shot had already been fired.

The bolts of lightning from the autodefensor activated and went to intercept the incoming arrow, but while several bolts had struck it, the arrow managed to slip through the lightning strikes and came for Gilgamesh. The speed at which electricity transmitted through the air, the speed of lighting in other words, is slower than light, but it should have been fast enough to catch a normal arrow. But the speed of the arrow went beyond the limits of humanity. Gilgamesh instantly manifested his armor and knocked the arrow away with his left gauntlet. However, apparently not completely nullifying its force, a portion of the armor broke and chips of gold fell to the floor.

“….Ho.”

Coldly looking at the chips of his armor, Gilgamesh slightly narrowed his eyes, then,

“Impressive bowmanship, however… I will shake off the rust from my treasures with you, you manner-less barbarian!” ~ Fate/Strange Fake

Clearly showing Supersonic speeds are causal things that all Servants can perform and react to Causally.

You also have character like even Sieg in his human form reacting to bullets.

That boy was completely powerless in the face of the bullet flying swiftly towards him.

No… he should have been powerless.

“Straße \ gehen.”

Just when she thought she saw a pale light suddenly shine, the boy swung out his hand as if to protect his head. There was the high-pitched sound of something popping.

“…Oh my.”

The bullet that should have pierced through the crown of his head had disappeared somewhere. To be precise, it hadn’t disappeared, but been smashed to pieces.

Without hesitation, Reika pulled the trigger once more—and the boy repeated the same words as before, with the bullet vanishing at the same time as he struck it with his palm. ~ Fate/Apocrypha

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

You even have characters like Hansa who’s complete fodder to Servants casually blocking automatic gunfire.

Even random fodder Dead Apostles (Servants are compared to Dead Apostle Ancestors) can bullet time

Personal firearms have little effect on vampires.

They are show offs who dodge the bullets after they see them. Since surface based attacks can't even touch them, they freely feed on their prey even up to this day. ~ Prelude

So then. Kirito’s best speed feat is struggling in stopping automatic gunfire with the prediction lines and then using Sinon’s eyes to survive her sniper round. Neither feat are even real bullet timing when compared to Sieg point blank catching a bullet, Hansa blocking automatic gunfire causally and the numerous supersonic statements and feats.

Artoria’s strength vs Alice’s

Artoria scales considerably past Jeanne (B Rank Strength vs A Rank + Mana Burst) who was able to trade blows with Avicebron’s golem.

A massive ‘something’ impacted the underground chamber, shaking the floor and causing stones fragments to fall from the ceiling. The entire chamber trembled and shuddered as though in a giant drum being beat upon. However, this place was not designed to endure such a beating; sooner or later, it would collapse.

“Get out of here, all of you!”

Astolfo yelled as he picked up a large group of the rescued homunculi. Sieg and the other rescuers secured the rest and followed him out.

Fiore kicked off her wheelchair, activating the Bronze-Link Manipulators on her back. Using the four deployed arms, she reached ground level at terrific speeds, moving down a hallway and leaping out from one of the windows – and did not hide her shock as she cried out at what she saw.

“Is that… Keter Malkuth…?”

There was one thing that she understood with only a single glance. It was that the golem before her was entirely unlike anything she had ever seen before. Even Roche’s or Aviecebron’s other creations of war could offer no comparison; it was on a completely different level. ~Fate/Apocrypha

Evading the giant’s downward slash, Jeanne stabbed with her banner – not towards the abdomen which she could not reach, but one of its arms. However, the great-sword was drawn back with speed and stopped her attack. And so, she could only persist in spurring her heart, wavering at the divine sight of the giant, even as she maintained her stalling tactic.

Jeanne could only buy time for the others – for she had no means to bring decisive victory. Rather, she had one – but it was forbidden to her. At the very least, she could not employ it here. She was beginning to fluster but, holding back her emotions, she continued to swing her banner and deflect the giant’s sword. ~Fate/Apocrypha

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Can trade blows with Herk and destroy the ground with their clashes.

Her and Diarmuid’s fight rips metal apart without touching it.

The wind that followed the swinging of weapons crudely severed the lamp post in half. Irisviel could no longer see the movements carried out at such high speeds. She was only feeling the after-shock of the conflict between the two.

The peeling sheet iron on the outer walls of the warehouses was ripped away by the wind from Irisviel’s side as if it was a piece of coiled tin foil. She could not comprehend how the iron can be torn away. Perhaps it was Saber’s sword or Lancer’s spear that brushed against its adjacent hollow space. Apart from that, she could not come up with any other explanation. ~ Fate/Zero

So Alice is quite clearly out classed in strength and speed Since her only feats are ‘Better than Kirito and Eugeo’.

Alice’s Special abilities Vs Saber’s

First is Avalon.

Avalon has healed everything from a crushed heart, giant chunks of missing flesh, slices and other minor injuries. All of this was done by characters who merely had contracts to Artoria rather than the girl herself. So anything short of destroying her head or blowing her body to bits isn’t going to kill her.

Avalon.

The paradise in the Arthurian legends; a scabbard bearing the name of the Faerie Land.

The utopia Avalon was thought to be derived from the island that produced the "Apple of Immortality" in Greek mythology.

Avalon mended all wounds and halted the wielder's aging process. After unleashing its true name, Avalon would break into hundreds of shards and shield the wielder from all interference.

The sheath of the holy sword was excavated by the Einzberns from Cornwall. It was given to Kiritsugu as a catalyst to summon King Arthur.

It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).

If Saber went hikikomori, no one would reach her.

Alice uses her Armament? Artoria ignores it with Avalon.

Next is Excalibur.

There‘s no need to go over this. Everyone knows the moment Artoria uses Excalibur she wins.

Alice can’t use sacred arts on her due to magic resistance.

Alice has limited stamina while Artoria‘s is infinite as long as she has mana.

Artoria‘s precognition and superior skill (Alice fights a nerd with some kendo training and hours of video game experience, Artoria fights legendary heroes who break cause and effect and the laws of physics with sheer skill.) will allow her to easily stomp Alice.

In conclusion, Artoria 10/10’s her rip off causally.

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REQUIEMCROSS

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@kell_saloks:

A weapon being divine is not enough to bypass her magical resistance. And physical attacks without magical enhancements are useless against the servants. So a density of at-least one ton in a space less than a centimeter wide while also having its edges sharper than a sword are useless if the magical enhancement on them are lower than her magical resistance. Even if herbase attacks can slice through material tougher than steel with each blow and are so sharp that the gusts of wind from the blade can both one shot and mutilate two giant monsters in one blow where as Kirito took several actual physical hits to kill just one of the same creatures (Important to remember they were super durable)., it is pretty useless against Avalon.

How can those attacks bypass the hax of Avalon? not even Ea could harm her when she have Avalon. Meanwhile, how will Alice defend against Saber's Excalibur? Saber at her strongest could spam excalibur like what she did against Berserker on Heaven's Feel Route.

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#44 kell_saloks  Online

@devoidruby:LMAO none of the Dark Apostles their are parrying bullets which is a much higher feat to do than dodge.

Bullet lines never helped Kirito in speed only perception and he proves his perception is good enough to cut bullets even with out a bullet line so the point on bullet lines is moot.

Related imageImage result for kirito bullet gif

Never is once Kiroto shown struggling vs super sonic projectiles and in-fact is shown casually dealing with them to the point he can protect both himself and another at the same time, he's even so confident he can stop a bullet inches away from his head hitting him.

Image result for kirito bullet gif

Kirito states in ALF that the super sonic combat that he does there is actually EASIER than the GGO fights where he still casually parries rounds with no difficulty.

Asura herself can replicate the same feat and from her perspective Alice is even faster

Related image

And that's not even Alice's best feat, her best feat is intercepting lightning speed type attacks TWICE

The tip of the chains came into contact with the pure white lightning. The torrent of energy transmitted straight through the chains in that instant, drawing closer to Alice.

But by then, the golden chains had already stretched itself towards the back and stabbed the small edge at its end into the floor. Unable to flee from the improvised earth wire, all of the immense energy flowed into the tower’s structure and was extinguished, causing explosive roars and white smoke.

Alice pointed her left index finger at Administrator and declared.

“Lightning will not work on me!!”

No Caption Provided

Excalibur can and has been dodged multiple times in the past by other Servant even Iskander has dodged it at near point blank range. Avalon is the only thing preventing Saber from getting gibbed and she can't attack with it up.

Not to Mention that Alice's sword is at-least equal to Kirito's who overpowered the Solus which caused an explosion that possibly shook the entire 500 + meter tower they were fighting on.

No Caption Provided

Alice already also moves fast enough that she also appears to be teleporting

Alice who practically teleported forward had Eldrie’s sword grasped between the fingers on her right hand and stopped the slash with all her strength.

Face it, your only argument for Saber being even hypersonic is not based on her own feats but on Servants explicitly faster than her.

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#45  Edited By kell_saloks  Online

Also ignoring you downplaying the fact that Alice's skill was compared to be a better fighter than the oldest fighter in the integrity knights (That she fought against) who was over a century old and fought using a time manipulating blade. Kirito was never her most skilled opponent just the fastest one (and not by much) and she still effortlessly handled him even while holding back and getting attacked from behind.

No Caption Provided

Alice's weapon art basically nullifies any attempt at blocking or deflecting and even a single pedal can one shot some one of Kirito's caliber, honestly all she has to do is barrage Arturia once with the pedals when she's out of Avalon and she's dead.

There's no doubt Alice is fast and wise enough to avoid Excalibur attacks while also attacking with her hypersonic death blossoms.

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#46  Edited By kell_saloks  Online

@requiemcross said:

@kell_saloks:

A weapon being divine is not enough to bypass her magical resistance. And physical attacks without magical enhancements are useless against the servants. So a density of at-least one ton in a space less than a centimeter wide while also having its edges sharper than a sword are useless if the magical enhancement on them are lower than her magical resistance. Even if herbase attacks can slice through material tougher than steel with each blow and are so sharp that the gusts of wind from the blade can both one shot and mutilate two giant monsters in one blow where as Kirito took several actual physical hits to kill just one of the same creatures (Important to remember they were super durable)., it is pretty useless against Avalon.

How can those attacks bypass the hax of Avalon? not even Ea could harm her when she have Avalon. Meanwhile, how will Alice defend against Saber's Excalibur? Saber at her strongest could spam excalibur like what she did against Berserker on Heaven's Feel Route.

It ALSO has a conceptual nature/power, I frankly don't see any argument here why it wouldn't work when even the trash throw away daggers Archer uses is enough to harm her.

Excalibur is something Alice can dodge like Iskander did, Avalon is countered by the fact that she can't attack with it up and Alice has the power to one shot Arturia with one volley of her pedals.

Saber can try spamming Excaliburs but Alice is superior in speed and her pedals can curve/fly and split up while attacking from different directions. It becomes a game of who can tag who first but the thing is that Alice can get Saber easier than Saber can get her.

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Saber stomps

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@kell_saloks: By statements random fodder Dead Apostles can casually bullet time, which is backed up with scaling to FZ Kirei. Hansa (Who states he’s inferior to Burial Agents) has That bullet dodging/deflecting feat which is still literal leagues beyond Kirito’s.

When Hansa reached the rooftop, he received a submachine gun baptism.

Jester made the police special forces weapon, which he must have borrowed without anyone noticing, spit out a hail of bullets. At the same time, he let loose with a shotgun — also police equipment — in his left hand. A quantity of projectiles sufficient to make mincemeat of any ordinary man closed in on Hansa.

Just then, however, Hansa's body seemed to sway like a heat haze. He evaded most of the bullets without even using his Black Keys, and batted some of them out of the air with this own hand. The scene, straight out of an action movie, drew unaffected praise from Jester." ~Fate/Strange Fake

Hansa causally dodging and batting aside a rain of bullets from a submachine gun and shotgun without even using his black keys >>>>>> Kirito deflecting automatic gunfire with his photon blade

Now prove that the lightning Alice dodges = IRL Lightning.

Otherwise I can scale Tohno Shiki to be a causal lighting timer while heavily injured, and this scales Saber massively beyond that if we assume fictional lightning = irl lightning

Characters who are massively faster than Alice dodging Excalibur doesn’t equal Alice being able to dodge It.


Excalibur Morgan was capable of vaporising the fragments of a meteor, Excalibur could erase Gilles horror and could annihilate the mountain the Greater Grail was located in.

So it’s leagues beyond Alice’s sword.

Your only feats are massive outliers and reliance on fictional lightning.

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REQUIEMCROSS

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@kell_saloks:

It ALSO has a conceptual nature/power, I frankly don't see any argument here why it wouldn't work when even the trash throw away daggers Archer uses is enough to harm her.

Saber's Magical Resistance and Luck managed to prevent the conceptual nature/power of Lancer's Gae Bolg, (it failed to pierce her heart). besides, what is the conceptual nature/power of Alice's attack? Is it more potent compare to the powerful effects of Gae bolg?

Excalibur is something Alice can dodge like Iskander did, Avalon is countered by the fact that she can't attack with it up and Alice has the power to one shot Arturia with one volley of her pedals.

Saber in Fate Zero can't spam Excalibur like Saber alter did in Heaven's Feel.

And what makes you think that Alice could one shot Saber if a divine construct like Ea failed?

Saber can try spamming Excaliburs but Alice is superior in speed and her pedals can curve/fly and split up while attacking from different directions. It becomes a game of who can tag who first but the thing is that Alice can get Saber easier than Saber can get her.

And what makes you think that Saber can't counter all of them? besides, those petals won't even scratch Saber due to her A rank magical resistance and B rank Luck. Not to mention her battle instincts. She could also over power Alice's attacks using her own Excalibur. Does Alice have the durability to tank Saber's attack? all Saber have to do is get near to the range where Alice's speed cannot make a difference.

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Undeckedlion395

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The one with a hair ribbon.