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#1 Posted by blackdemon (2213 posts) - - Show Bio

Professor Dumbledore takes on Lord Vader! Prep for both and morals apply, with the fight taking place in South Africa at night and being to the death! Who will win? The wizard or the Sith?

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#2 Posted by Enemybird (5081 posts) - - Show Bio

Not very familiar very familiar harry potter spells but Vader has never delt with someone like Dumbledore... Im sure he would be overwhelmed

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#3 Posted by Fortified_Hooligan (2256 posts) - - Show Bio

Movie Vader doesn't have much going for him. He could kill dumbledor if he got close enough with the sabre, but his force abilities have got nothing on dumbledor's magic abilities.

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#4 Posted by Joygirl (21036 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude... DV can beat anyone from the HP universe. This is well-established. Dumbledore needs a wand, and before he can cast a single spell Vader can snatch it away from him with the Force. The fight then becomes Sith Lord vs. Frail Old Man, and one force choke or sabertoss ends that fight.

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#5 Posted by the_stegman (40009 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Dumbledore DOESN'T need a wand to cast spells, why do people keep thinking that? 
 
2. prep for both, Dumbledore sets up plenty of barrier spells to prevent any attacks vader has from getting through 
 
3. Vader is hella slow compared to Dumbledore 
 
conclusion- Dumbly wins

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#6 Posted by steelhound56 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

EU Vader wins. Dumby is not going to be able to deal with Vaders monstrous (in his verse, and in the HP verse as well) TK and other Force abilities. Vader could crush his windpipe or skull telekinectically from the get go, as HP wizards are still human, and subject to average human durability.

Vader has the Force to amplify his strength, speed, reflexes, and senses to superhuman levels. From what I can tell, no wizard is going to match up with EU Vader physically while he has access to the Force.

Vader could possibly blitz him given some of his speed feats in the EU. He's not fast by any stretch, but he shows some impressive straight line speed. I know Dumby and Voldemort were Apparating around the MoM in one of the books, but i dont think thats going to help against an EU Vader

Movie Vader... not so much. If he gets the jump on dumby he could kill him, but his movie incarnation isnt fast enough to tag Dumbeldore consisently. His best hope is to go straight for crushing Dumbeldore's throat at the start of the fight.

EU Vader vs. Book Dumby- Vader

Movie Vader vs Movie Dumby- Dumbeldore

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#7 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@steelhound56 said:

Vader could possibly blitz him given some of his speed feats in the EU. He's not fast by any stretch, but he shows some impressive straight line speed. I know Dumby and Voldemort were Apparating around the MoM in one of the books, but i dont think thats going to help against an EU Vader

This part confuses me. Maybe I am simply misinterpreting what you said (and if so, correct me), but Vader has demonstrated little forward movement speed and more reaction and combat speed. He has deflect blaster bolts from turret emplacements and around a dozen standard blaster bolts, and he has moved his lightsaber imperceptibly fast, faster than thought, and quickly enough to produce blurs/afterimages. His combat speed feats place him in league with many other characters of his weight class. So if anything, this seems reversed. He is fairly fast but not in straight line speed/running/movement speed.
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#8 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Stegman said:
2. prep for both, Dumbledore sets up plenty of barrier spells to prevent any attacks vader has from getting through 
Prep for both = Vader performs a planetary bombardment with the Executor. Since I know nothing about Dumbledore, you can tell me whether or not he can construct shields resilient enough to withstand gigatons of force. 
 
3. Vader is hella slow compared to Dumbledore
Based on...?
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#9 Posted by Montaq (961 posts) - - Show Bio

Just being in the presence of magic shorts out all electronics. As soon as the battle starts Vader's arms and legs will blow and he'll be gasping for breath. This goes on for about two seconds before Albus turns him into a teapot.

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#10 Posted by Deranged Midget (18346 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, Star Wars has been trending a lot lately.

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#11 Edited by steelhound56 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@steelhound56 said:

Vader could possibly blitz him given some of his speed feats in the EU. He's not fast by any stretch, but he shows some impressive straight line speed. I know Dumby and Voldemort were Apparating around the MoM in one of the books, but i dont think thats going to help against an EU Vader

This part confuses me. Maybe I am simply misinterpreting what you said (and if so, correct me), but Vader has demonstrated little forward movement speed and more reaction and combat speed. He has deflect blaster bolts from turret emplacements and around a dozen standard blaster bolts, and he has moved his lightsaber imperceptibly fast, faster than thought, and quickly enough to produce blurs/afterimages. His combat speed feats place him in league with many other characters of his weight class. So if anything, this seems reversed. He is fairly fast but not in straight line speed/running/movement speed.

I agree with you, Vader's movement/running speed is indeed slow compared to other Force users. But he has showings that demonstrate a pretty impressive closing burst in the EU

His prosthetic limbs allow him to traverse flights of stairs in a single bound, as described in Rise of Darth Vader. He is also shown to be able to close a fairly large distance (20-30 feet I believe) "in the blink of an eye" when fighting Roan Shryne in the same novel.

While not that impressive compared to other speed feats in the EU (Roan Shryne, Olee Starstone, and Bol Chatak are described as being able to cover several kilometers on foot in a few minutes in Rise of Darth Vader) it shows Vader is still pretty fast in short bursts

Given prep, Vader stays in the Star Destroyer Executor and glasses the continent Dumbeldore is on...

DIsallowing that, Vader still takes this with a telekinetic windpipe crushing

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#12 Posted by TheBane2890 (1972 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joygirl: said:

Dude... DV can beat anyone from the HP universe. This is well-established. Dumbledore needs a wand, and before he can cast a single spell Vader can snatch it away from him with the Force. The fight then becomes Sith Lord vs. Frail Old Man, and one force choke or sabertoss ends that fight.

agree

@steelhound56: said:

EU Vader wins. Dumby is not going to be able to deal with Vaders monstrous (in his verse, and in the HP verse as well) TK and other Force abilities. Vader could crush his windpipe or skull telekinectically from the get go, as HP wizards are still human, and subject to average human durability.
Vader has the Force to amplify his strength, speed, reflexes, and senses to superhuman levels. From what I can tell, no wizard is going to match up with EU Vader physically while he has access to the Force.
Vader could possibly blitz him given some of his speed feats in the EU. He's not fast by any stretch, but he shows some impressive straight line speed. I know Dumby and Voldemort were Apparating around the MoM in one of the books, but i dont think thats going to help against an EU Vader

also agree

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#13 Posted by Montaq (961 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56: You can't use prep time to call in backup, which is what useing a spaceship to bomb the planet would be. This is a one-on-one fight.

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#14 Posted by steelhound56 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@Montaq said:

@steelhound56: You can't use prep time to call in backup, which is what useing a spaceship to bomb the planet would be. This is a one-on-one fight.

okay, fair enough

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#15 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@steelhound56 said:

@Silver2467 said:

@steelhound56 said:

Vader could possibly blitz him given some of his speed feats in the EU. He's not fast by any stretch, but he shows some impressive straight line speed. I know Dumby and Voldemort were Apparating around the MoM in one of the books, but i dont think thats going to help against an EU Vader

This part confuses me. Maybe I am simply misinterpreting what you said (and if so, correct me), but Vader has demonstrated little forward movement speed and more reaction and combat speed. He has deflect blaster bolts from turret emplacements and around a dozen standard blaster bolts, and he has moved his lightsaber imperceptibly fast, faster than thought, and quickly enough to produce blurs/afterimages. His combat speed feats place him in league with many other characters of his weight class. So if anything, this seems reversed. He is fairly fast but not in straight line speed/running/movement speed.

I agree with you, Vader's movement/running speed is indeed slow compared to other Force users. But he has showings that demonstrate a pretty impressive closing burst in the EU

His prosthetic limbs allow him to traverse flights of stairs in a single bound, as described in Rise of Darth Vader. He is also shown to be able to close a fairly large distance (20-30 feet I believe) "in the blink of an eye" when fighting Roan Shryne in the same novel.

While not that impressive compared to other speed feats in the EU (Roan Shryne, Olee Starstone, and Bol Chatak are described as being able to cover several kilometers on foot in a few minutes in Rise of Darth Vader) it shows Vader is still pretty fast in short bursts

I see. I thought you were referring specifically to running speed. I agree with you that his jumping distance is impressive. 
 
@Montaq said:

@steelhound56: You can't use prep time to call in backup, which is what useing a spaceship to bomb the planet would be. This is a one-on-one fight.

The Executor is a resource at Vader's disposal. Its function is exactly like Batman utilizing prep for his JLA drones or Doom for his Doombots. There is nothing in the rules that forbids it.
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#16 Posted by Montaq (961 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Montaq said:

@steelhound56: You can't use prep time to call in backup, which is what useing a spaceship to bomb the planet would be. This is a one-on-one fight.

The Executor is a resource at Vader's disposal. Its function is exactly like Batman utilizing prep for his JLA drones or Doom for his Doombots. There is nothing in the rules that forbids it.

In that case Dumbledore uses a Time-Turner to go back in time and stops Anakin from turning evil.

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#17 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Montaq said:

@Silver2467 said:

@Montaq said:

@steelhound56: You can't use prep time to call in backup, which is what useing a spaceship to bomb the planet would be. This is a one-on-one fight.

The Executor is a resource at Vader's disposal. Its function is exactly like Batman utilizing prep for his JLA drones or Doom for his Doombots. There is nothing in the rules that forbids it.

In that case Dumbledore uses a Time-Turner to go back in time and stops Anakin from turning evil.

Seeing as how BFR was never specified as being prohibited and assuming Dumbledore can do that in the midst of a fight, sure he could. Problem is, he knows nothing about Vader and therefore has no reason to connect him with Anakin or even be aware of Anakin's existence.
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#18 Posted by Montaq (961 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467:

Wow, I was trying to make a point about how I also could use ridiculously powerful equipment that they have theoretical access to to render any confrontation between them moot, and did not expect you to except that as a reasonable strategy. Ok, so let me just ask you, if neither of them had access to outside help and it was a simple one-on-one standard gear fight, who do you think would win?

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#19 Posted by the_stegman (40009 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: the OP says fight takes place in Africa, not Dumbledore in Africa while Vader is on a starship, they are both starting in the same place, and I doubt the OP had vader millions of miles away blasting at a planet in mind when he made it, and as for Vader being slow, i got it from the films, where he, is slow moving and stiff
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#20 Posted by HolySerpent (13762 posts) - - Show Bio

Have to agree with stegman. Dumbledore wins. Also he does not need a wand

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#21 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Montaq said:

@Silver2467:

Wow, I was trying to make a point about how I also could use ridiculously powerful equipment that they have theoretical access to to render any confrontation between them moot, and did not expect you to except that as a reasonable strategy.

Prep is prep. As long as the character has displayed the capacity for a certain strategy before, it is feasible enough to assume they would here. With Vader, commanding fleets is his prerogative when given preparation. If Dumbledore has demonstrated time travel with prep in the past, he could here.
 

Ok, so let me just ask you, if neither of them had access to outside help and it was a simple one-on-one standard gear fight, who do you think would win?

I would have to know more about Dumbledore to answer that. 
 

@The Stegman

said:

@Silver2467: the OP says fight takes place in Africa, not Dumbledore in Africa while Vader is on a starship, they are both starting in the same place, and I doubt the OP had vader millions of miles away blasting at a planet in mind when he made it, 

The Star Destroyer can be within the atmosphere of earth for all it matters. It could be barely above the ground hovering on its repulsorlifts. Where the Executor is situated is unimportant. The result is what matters. 
 

and as for Vader being slow, i got it from the films, where he, is slow moving and stiff

No Caption Provided

 Vader deflecting lasers from turret emplacements.
 Vader deflecting lasers from turret emplacements.
 
 Vader moving his blade fast enough to create afterimages.
 Vader moving his blade fast enough to create afterimages.

  Vader moving his blade fast enough to create afterimages again.
  Vader moving his blade fast enough to create afterimages again.
Vader drawing his lightsaber faster than thought and swinging it imperceptibly fast as he deflects blaster bolts.

The Dark Lord stepped into the room, scanning it. There was something here...
The faint click of metallic weapons reached his ears. Faster than thought, Vader drew and ignited his lightsaber. In the same moment, small openings appeared in the walls and ceiling, and hidden  blasters fired. Energy beams rained down on the Dark Lord and his soldiers. Stormtroopers cried out as blaster bolts shattered their white armor. At least a dozen bolts streaked toward Vader himself. Moving faster than the eye  could follow, Vader's lightsaber blocked them all.

--Taken from Clones

Again, what makes Dumbledore so obviously faster? I asked this already, and no answer was given. 
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#22 Posted by _Zombie_ (10572 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Montaq said:

@Silver2467:

Wow, I was trying to make a point about how I also could use ridiculously powerful equipment that they have theoretical access to to render any confrontation between them moot, and did not expect you to except that as a reasonable strategy.

Prep is prep. As long as the character has displayed the capacity for a certain strategy before, it is feasible enough to assume they would here. With Vader, commanding fleets is his prerogative when given preparation. If Dumbledore has demonstrated time travel with prep in the past, he could here.

Ok, so let me just ask you, if neither of them had access to outside help and it was a simple one-on-one standard gear fight, who do you think would win?

I would have to know more about Dumbledore to answer that.

@The Stegman said:

@Silver2467: the OP says fight takes place in Africa, not Dumbledore in Africa while Vader is on a starship, they are both starting in the same place, and I doubt the OP had vader millions of miles away blasting at a planet in mind when he made it,

The Star Destroyer can be within the atmosphere of earth for all it matters. It could be barely above the ground hovering on its repulsorlifts. Where the Executor is situated is unimportant. The result is what matters.

and as for Vader being slow, i got it from the films, where he, is slow moving and stiff

No Caption Provided

Vader deflecting lasers from turret emplacements.
Vader deflecting lasers from turret emplacements.

Vader moving his blade fast enough to create afterimages.
Vader moving his blade fast enough to create afterimages.

Vader moving his blade fast enough to create afterimages again.
Vader moving his blade fast enough to create afterimages again.
Vader drawing his lightsaber faster than thought and swinging it imperceptibly fast as he deflects blaster bolts.
The Dark Lord stepped into the room, scanning it. There was something
here...
The faint click of metallic weapons reached his ears. Faster than thought, Vader drew and ignited his lightsaber. In the same moment, small openings appeared in the walls and ceiling, and hidden blasters fired. Energy beams rained down on the Dark Lord and his soldiers. Stormtroopers cried out as blaster bolts shattered their white armor. At least a dozen bolts streaked toward Vader himself. Moving faster than the eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber blocked them all.
--Taken from ClonesAgain, what makes Dumbledore so obviously faster? I asked this already, and no answer was given.

I read the books, and I myself don't recall any notable speed feats. His main advantage is that he's such a damn good Wizard, but I really don't recall anything indicating his speed was above human limits.

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#23 Posted by Montaq (961 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Montaq said:

@Silver2467:

Wow, I was trying to make a point about how I also could use ridiculously powerful equipment that they have theoretical access to to render any confrontation between them moot, and did not expect you to except that as a reasonable strategy.

Prep is prep. As long as the character has displayed the capacity for a certain strategy before, it is feasible enough to assume they would here. With Vader, commanding fleets is his prerogative when given preparation. If Dumbledore has demonstrated time travel with prep in the past, he could here.

I get what your saying, it still just seems unfair to me. It be like if it was Captain America vs Vader and Cap used his prep time to ask Thor to hit him with lightning from space. Thats obviously a bit of a stretch but I think you can see my point.

Ok, so let me just ask you, if neither of them had access to outside help and it was a simple one-on-one standard gear fight, who do you think would win?

I would have to know more about Dumbledore to answer that.

Ok, fair enough.

As for your last point, while Vader has fantastic reaction and combat speed, Dumbledore will be attacking at range and Vader would first need to close the gap between them (which was not specified and I believe defaults to 50ft or something, I don't remember exactly but the point is not in sword range.) This will be made more difficult with the fact that Dumbledore can teleport and will be casting spells at the speed of thought. This is also all beside the point, because all of Vader's cybernetics will malfunction in Dumbledore's mere presents, giving him the chance to do literally anything to Vader.

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#24 Edited by the_stegman (40009 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: Those scans are from the comic, thus not canon to the films, which is again i ask whether these are just movie versions, in which Dumbledore is faster as seen in the fifth film during his duel with Voldemort where he was seen easily dodging and defecting attacks. or the EU version, in which i would lean toward Vader to win actually.
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#25 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Montaq said: 

I get what your saying, it still just seems unfair to me. It be like if it was Captain America vs Vader and Cap used his prep time to ask Thor to hit him with lightning from space. Thats obviously a bit of a stretch but I think you can see my point.

Thor is not a resource at Captain America's disposal. Imperial military vehicles and various mystical artifacts are resources available to Vader and Dumbledore. Bad comparison. 
 

Ok, fair enough.

As for your last point, while Vader has fantastic reaction and combat speed, Dumbledore will be attacking at range and Vader would first need to close the gap between them (which was not specified and I believe defaults to 50ft or something, I don't remember exactly but the point is not in sword range.) This will be made more difficult with the fact that Dumbledore can teleport and will be casting spells at the speed of thought.

Why does Vader have to move within range to attack Dumbledore? He has TK, TP, weather manipulation. If nothing else, he could just throw his lightsaber. 
 

This is also all beside the point, because all of Vader's cybernetics will malfunction in Dumbledore's mere presents, giving him the chance to do literally anything to Vader.

You mentioned this once before; could you describe this in greater detail? What are the parameters of it, how does it work, why does it happen? You have to understand that I am nearly entirely ignorant of the character; so thorough explanation on this would be appreciated. 
 
@The Stegman said:
@Silver2467: Those scans are from the comic, thus not canon to the films, which is again i ask whether these are just movie versions, in which Dumbledore is faster as seen in the fifth film during his duel with Voldemort where he was seen easily dodging and defecting attacks. or the EU version, in which i would lean toward Vader to win actually.
It was never stipulated that this is movie Vader; you are attaching a nonexistent condition. 
 
But to be safe, sure, we could find out what the TC prefers.
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#26 Posted by Montaq (961 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Montaq said:

I get what your saying, it still just seems unfair to me. It be like if it was Captain America vs Vader and Cap used his prep time to ask Thor to hit him with lightning from space. Thats obviously a bit of a stretch but I think you can see my point.

Thor is not a resource at Captain America's disposal. Imperial military vehicles and various mystical artifacts are resources available to Vader and Dumbledore. Bad comparison.

Ok, fair enough.

As for your last point, while Vader has fantastic reaction and combat speed, Dumbledore will be attacking at range and Vader would first need to close the gap between them (which was not specified and I believe defaults to 50ft or something, I don't remember exactly but the point is not in sword range.) This will be made more difficult with the fact that Dumbledore can teleport and will be casting spells at the speed of thought.

Why does Vader have to move within range to attack Dumbledore? He has TK, TP, weather manipulation. If nothing else, he could just throw his lightsaber.

This is also all beside the point, because all of Vader's cybernetics will malfunction in Dumbledore's mere presents, giving him the chance to do literally anything to Vader.

You mentioned this once before; could you describe this in greater detail? What are the parameters of it, how does it work, why does it happen? You have to understand that I am nearly entirely ignorant of the character; so thorough explanation on this would be appreciated.

@The Stegman said:
@Silver2467: Those scans are from the comic, thus not canon to the films, which is again i ask whether these are just movie versions, in which Dumbledore is faster as seen in the fifth film during his duel with Voldemort where he was seen easily dodging and defecting attacks. or the EU version, in which i would lean toward Vader to win actually.
It was never stipulated that this is movie Vader; you are attaching a nonexistent condition. But to be safe, sure, we could find out what the TC prefers.

To your first point, yes it is an unequal comparison, but I was merely trying to make a point that you were bringing in outside forces to change the battle for "Vader vs Dumbledore" to "Dumbledore vs Vader with a ship". However, I see your reasoning, I think you see mine, and I'm willing to agree to disagree here. To your second point, I am well aware of Vader's abilities however your scans focused on his speed with a lightsaber, which is what I was arguing against. The other abilities you mentioned (TP,TK, weather manipulation) are all abilities that Dumbledore also possesses, however the full upper-limits of these abilities are not well defined but I do believe they are superior to Vaders. To your third point, it was stated in the fourth book that electronics don't work at Hogworts, as Harry though they should set surveillance equipment for spying on someone story related and Hermione told him it wouldn't work because the magic in the air would disrupt all electronic devises. Dumbledore is a man dripping with magic energy, it should be enough to throw a wrench in Vader's life support system.

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#27 Posted by steelhound56 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@Montaq said:

@Silver2467 said:

@Montaq said:

@Silver2467:

Wow, I was trying to make a point about how I also could use ridiculously powerful equipment that they have theoretical access to to render any confrontation between them moot, and did not expect you to except that as a reasonable strategy.

Prep is prep. As long as the character has displayed the capacity for a certain strategy before, it is feasible enough to assume they would here. With Vader, commanding fleets is his prerogative when given preparation. If Dumbledore has demonstrated time travel with prep in the past, he could here.

I get what your saying, it still just seems unfair to me. It be like if it was Captain America vs Vader and Cap used his prep time to ask Thor to hit him with lightning from space. Thats obviously a bit of a stretch but I think you can see my point.

Ok, so let me just ask you, if neither of them had access to outside help and it was a simple one-on-one standard gear fight, who do you think would win?

I would have to know more about Dumbledore to answer that.

Ok, fair enough.

As for your last point, while Vader has fantastic reaction and combat speed, Dumbledore will be attacking at range and Vader would first need to close the gap between them (which was not specified and I believe defaults to 50ft or something, I don't remember exactly but the point is not in sword range.) This will be made more difficult with the fact that Dumbledore can teleport and will be casting spells at the speed of thought. This is also all beside the point, because all of Vader's cybernetics will malfunction in Dumbledore's mere presents, giving him the chance to do literally anything to Vader.

Who's to say Vader's cybernetics will malfunction? SW tech is vastly different and more advanced from technology in the HP verse, which is based upon real life tech. Vader's armor and cybernetics have never been shown to shut down or malfunction in the prescence of Sith magic or Sith sorcery, and components of Vaders suit have been imbued with Sith magic, so I would assume it wont shut down in the prescence of HP magic.

The nature of Jedi combat means they move and react faster than thought, thats how lightsaber combat and intercepting blaster bolts works. Force users actually predict what an opponent will do before they do it. Lightsaber combat is described as a chess match between two players, with every move being a check.

Vader has no deficiency of long range options himself. He used the Force to choke someone to death from miles away just by being able to see him. That's an impressive feat. Other feats include him using TK to dismantle an entire bridge and send the pieces hurling at his opponent with blinding speed, crushing hyper advanced alloys like they were made of tinfoil with the Force, stopping blaster bolts with his bare hands, and telekinectically hurling someone with enough force to dent the durasteel wall he slammed them into.

And this doesnt include using the Force to enhance his physical speed, reflexes, strength, and endurance. Powerful Force users are essentially superhuman when using the Force to amp their physical stats.

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#28 Posted by Montaq (961 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56 said:

Who's to say Vader's cybernetics will malfunction? SW tech is vastly different and more advanced from technology in the HP verse, which is based upon real life tech. Vader's armor and cybernetics have never been shown to shut down or malfunction in the prescence of Sith magic or Sith sorcery, and components of Vaders suit have been imbued with Sith magic, so I would assume it wont shut down in the prescence of HP magic.

I'll admit, the whole concept of "Sith magic" slipped my mind, however this brings up the whole problem of the difference between "sith magic" and "wizard magic". I order to know the difference between them we would need to know exactly what they are and the whole concept of magic is that it is the unexplainable and this opens a can of worms I don't really want to deal with. Though I still think it would disrupt his systems, as they would not have Dumbledore's type of magic in their galaxy to make armor immune to, I will reframe from making this the focus of my argument for simplicities sake.

The nature of Jedi combat means they move and react faster than thought, thats how lightsaber combat and intercepting blaster bolts works. Force users actually predict what an opponent will do before they do it. Lightsaber combat is described as a chess match between two players, with every move being a check.

I know how Jedi combat works, but what Vader doesn't know is how wizard duels work. Instead of a blast coming at him he finds his lightsaber is turned into ice and gravity has been reversed. Or Dumbledore pulls out his deluminator and sucks up Vader's lightsaber. Harry Potter magic can do just about anything and Dumbledore is the sorcerer supreme of the Potterverse. Vader will be playing chess and Dumbledore can hit him with a water ballon, slam a turkey leg on the board and yell "King Me!" His options are limitless and you can't tell what he'll do.

Vader has no deficiency of long range options himself. He used the Force to choke someone to death from miles away just by being able to see him. That's an impressive feat. Other feats include him using TK to dismantle an entire bridge and send the pieces hurling at his opponent with blinding speed, crushing hyper advanced alloys like they were made of tinfoil with the Force, stopping blaster bolts with his bare hands, and telekinectically hurling someone with enough force to dent the durasteel wall he slammed them into.

All of these will do him no good after he's been transformed into a teakettle.

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#29 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Montaq said: 

To your first point, yes it is an unequal comparison, but I was merely trying to make a point that you were bringing in outside forces to change the battle for "Vader vs Dumbledore" to "Dumbledore vs Vader with a ship". However, I see your reasoning, I think you see mine, and I'm willing to agree to disagree here.

Understood. Fair enough. 
 

To your second point, I am well aware of Vader's abilities however your scans focused on his speed with a lightsaber, which is what I was arguing against. The other abilities you mentioned (TP,TK, weather manipulation) are all abilities that Dumbledore also possesses, however the full upper-limits of these abilities are not well defined but I do believe they are superior to Vaders.

Can you give me any examples of his TP, TK, or Alter Environment being superior to Vader's? And how will Dumbledore employ these before Vader if Vader has superior combat speed? 
 

To your third point, it was stated in the fourth book that electronics don't work at Hogworts, as Harry though they should set surveillance equipment for spying on someone story related and Hermione told him it wouldn't work because the magic in the air would disrupt all electronic devises. Dumbledore is a man dripping with magic energy, it should be enough to throw a wrench in Vader's life support system.

This is not as clear an explanation as I was hoping. Does there have to be a certain amount of magic in a given area for this to take effect? Is there a limited radius of effect? Is stating that the magic would "disrupt" the electronics interchangeable with "disabling" or "dismantling" the electronics? Do we know whether this would be effective against technology not only far more advanced but also designed with Sith magic and alchemy?
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#30 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@steelhound56 said: 

Who's to say Vader's cybernetics will malfunction? SW tech is vastly different and more advanced from technology in the HP verse, which is based upon real life tech. Vader's armor and cybernetics have never been shown to shut down or malfunction in the prescence of Sith magic or Sith sorcery, and components of Vaders suit have been imbued with Sith magic, so I would assume it wont shut down in the prescence of HP magic.

Ah, I see you already addressed that. 
 

The nature of Jedi combat means they move and react faster than thought, thats how lightsaber combat and intercepting blaster bolts works. Force users actually predict what an opponent will do before they do it. Lightsaber combat is described as a chess match between two players, with every move being a check.

Just to reinforce this point, Vader's perceptive and reactive speed is vastly superhuman based on his deflection feats, and as I already posted a quote of, he has moved faster than thought. 
 

Vader has no deficiency of long range options himself. He used the Force to choke someone to death from miles away just by being able to see him. That's an impressive feat. Other feats include him using TK to dismantle an entire bridge and send the pieces hurling at his opponent with blinding speed, crushing hyper advanced alloys like they were made of tinfoil with the Force, stopping blaster bolts with his bare hands, and telekinectically hurling someone with enough force to dent the durasteel wall he slammed them into.

And to add to this one:
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@Montaq said: 

I'll admit, the whole concept of "Sith magic" slipped my mind, however this brings up the whole problem of the difference between "sith magic" and "wizard magic". I order to know the difference between them we would need to know exactly what they are and the whole concept of magic is that it is the unexplainable and this opens a can of worms I don't really want to deal with. Though I still think it would disrupt his systems, as they would not have Dumbledore's type of magic in their galaxy to make armor immune to, I will reframe from making this the focus of my argument for simplicities sake.

Well, let's compromise it like this: Although how much prep time is afforded to each combatant was never identified in the OP, we can assume the time is of a decent margin at least. In that time, Vader could enter his meditation chamber and immerse himself in the currents of the Force to discover through his perceptions what Dumbledore's method of combat will be and what variables there will be when Vader confronts him. That being said, he may already know prior to the fight's start that Dumbledore could interfere with his armor systems and therefore maintain his distance. 
 

I know how Jedi combat works, but what Vader doesn't know is how wizard duels work. Instead of a blast coming at him he finds his lightsaber is turned into ice and gravity has been reversed. Or Dumbledore pulls out his deluminator and sucks up Vader's lightsaber. Harry Potter magic can do just about anything and Dumbledore is the sorcerer supreme of the Potterverse. Vader will be playing chess and Dumbledore can hit him with a water ballon, slam a turkey leg on the board and yell "King Me!" His options are limitless and you can't tell what he'll do.

I think you missed the point Steelhound was driving at. Vader possesses both superhuman combat/processing speed and a precog. He could not only make the first move in a fight with Dumbledore due to his speed (unless you have examples of Dumbledore showing superior perceptive/processing/reactive/combat speeds than those presented for Vader) but would be aware ahead of time what Dumbledore intends to do (via his precog, sensing Dumbledore's intentions, reading Dumbledore's mind/emotions, etc.) and respond accordingly. 
 

All of these will do him no good after he's been transformed into a teakettle.

But how does he do this before Vader attacks him?
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#31 Posted by Montaq (961 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: As for the electronic interference, I'm sorry but thats about as specific as the books get, however I will except your answer for he preped against it as it just makes things easier. As for the second part, I may have gotten a bit off track. The point I was trying to make is that Dumbledore's fighting style is something completely alien to Vader and even with his superior physical stats and precog, he would be out of his element. Dumbledore is very old and fighting for most of his life and unanimously excepted as the greatest duelist in the world. He has strong psychic defenses and it wouldn't be wrong to assume his reflexes are peak human or enough to teleport away before Vader can get to him. Then Vader senses him at the same time he appears, and tries to choke him at the same time Dumbledore transforms him. Dumbledore collapses to the ground breathing heavily from being freed from his choke and Vader hits the ground being turned into a book. This of course depends on the starting distance between them at the start of the fight. If its the good fifty to hundred feet I'm picturing then this is feasible. If its only twenty feet or under then Vader would just strike him down before he could think; of course then Dumbledore would just become more powerful then he could possible imagine (sorry, I had to say it). Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is speedblitz is Vader's best shot, however most of your showings are for his combat speed, not movement speed.

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#32 Posted by steelhound56 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

^^^ couldnt have said it better myself....

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#33 Posted by DieHard200904 (592 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fortified_Hooligan: Movie Vader can choke with or without gesturing, and over great distances such as choking Admiral Ozzel over a phone line in ESB, although there are plenty of questions regarding how much power this shows for Vader, such as whether or not Vader was hundreds or whole kilometers from Ozzel's location on the bridge, as well as whether or not this depended on Vader knowing or having a memory or a spatial awareness of the entire Executor vessel, so that either he felt what was going on throughout the entire vessel, or he was familiar with Ozzel's location, and knew how to reach out with the force to that location and choke Ozzel. I only bring this up because hopefully Dumbledore is too smart to bother with trying to telepathically communicate with vader, or if Vader's force choke ability has certain limitations on it's reach, and doesn't work over exactly any communication line. I could be wrong, but seeing that memorable, "You Have Failed Me For THE LAST TIME, ADMIRAL!!!" gives me shivers to think that possibly Vader could choke somebody from miles away from where he sat, and not give much of a chance.

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#34 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Montaq said:

@Silver2467: As for the electronic interference, I'm sorry but thats about as specific as the books get, however I will except your answer for he preped against it as it just makes things easier.

Alright. 
 

As for the second part, I may have gotten a bit off track. The point I was trying to make is that Dumbledore's fighting style is something completely alien to Vader and even with his superior physical stats and precog, he would be out of his element. Dumbledore is very old and fighting for most of his life and unanimously excepted as the greatest duelist in the world. He has strong psychic defenses and it wouldn't be wrong to assume his reflexes are peak human or enough to teleport away before Vader can get to him. Then Vader senses him at the same time he appears, and tries to choke him at the same time Dumbledore transforms him. Dumbledore collapses to the ground breathing heavily from being freed from his choke and Vader hits the ground being turned into a book. This of course depends on the starting distance between them at the start of the fight. If its the good fifty to hundred feet I'm picturing then this is feasible. If its only twenty feet or under then Vader would just strike him down before he could think; of course then Dumbledore would just become more powerful then he could possible imagine (sorry, I had to say it). Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is speedblitz is Vader's best shot, however most of your showings are for his combat speed, not movement speed.

Sorry to say this, but this is more of a fan fiction than an argument. If they start fifty to one hundred feet away, why would Vader charge after him when he can simply TK him? Combat speed is not solely relevant to Vader's ability to throw fast blows; it also allows him to strike first, be it with his lightsaber or with the Force. I fail to see how Dumbledore would attack Vader simultaneously when he has not demonstrated comparable combat speed, and Vader's precog forewarning him to Dumbledore's upcoming strategy would prompt him to react as needed, i.e., release a telekinetic blast capable of downing buildings. 
 
I think we can agree that there are scenarios where either one of them could win though. It seems to me that this is more of a who-hits-first situation, and to that effect, I would favor Vader. However, as I said since the start, my knowledge of Dumbledore is limited; so I could be wrong.
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#35 Posted by Montaq (961 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Ok, I see your points, the problem is there are just to many unknowns for me. Can magic block the force, can the force black magic, can Dumbledore cloud Vader's precog, can Vader cloud Dumbledore's precog, does Dumbledore even have precog, (divination is a magic skill and since Dumbledore is the master of all things magical, it would make sense for him to be able to do this, but as the books never addressed it I decided to leave it out of my argument) starting distance, reaction speeds, etcetera, etcetera? The only thing I can say for sure is that this battle is totally wizard. Look, I think we both said about as much as we can about this (you may still be able to dig up one or two small nuggets about Vader do to his depth of appearances, but Dumbledore has only had a few appearances and because his magic levels were never well defined besides being "the best" it makes him hard to pin-down in cross-fictional battles) but I think we have both done a good job of stating our cases and allowing anyone patient enough to read through our bickerings formulate their own informed opinion. You are truly a fine debater and I have had a lot of fun here. Good day and may the force be with you.

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#36 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Montaq: It was a good discussion, and I do appreciate the civility. 
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#37 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (2295 posts) - - Show Bio

Revive.

Book Dumbledore > Movie Vader

Movie Dumbledore > Movie vader.

Anyone want to challenge this? Go on ahead.

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#38 Posted by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (17515 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol, I like how the guy who bumped this didn't put comic or book Vader XD

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#39 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

This shouldn't have been bumped.

Lol, I like how the guy who bumped this didn't put comic or book Vader XD

Maybe because he is a troll. EU is always allowed as far as feats go unless the OP directly stipulates so (which he did not), in which case Vader stomps via speedblitz, TK, or calling in Star Destroyers.

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#40 Posted by Earthquake_2123 (475 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by DarkRaiden (15466 posts) - - Show Bio

Revive.

Book Dumbledore > Movie Vader

Movie Dumbledore > Movie vader.

Anyone want to challenge this? Go on ahead.

I will. Vader blocks spells with his lightsaber and chokes Dumbledore with the force. Dumbledore has literally no defense against this.

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#42 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (2295 posts) - - Show Bio

This shouldn't have been bumped.

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk said:

Lol, I like how the guy who bumped this didn't put comic or book Vader XD

Maybe because he is a troll. EU is always allowed as far as feats go unless the OP directly stipulates so (which he did not), in which case Vader stomps via speedblitz, TK, or calling in Star Destroyers.

Of course I'm a troll, even though in past threads I've admitted no one in the HP universe can stand up to EU vader.

But, think what you wish.

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#43 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (2295 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks said:

Revive.

Book Dumbledore > Movie Vader

Movie Dumbledore > Movie vader.

Anyone want to challenge this? Go on ahead.

I will. Vader blocks spells with his lightsaber and chokes Dumbledore with the force. Dumbledore has literally no defense against this.

Show me Vader EVER blocking a spell with a lightsaber. That's not a feat of his, so we can't say he can do so, thus Dumbledore can utilize the reductor curse.

Secondly, Dumbledore can go completely invisible. I wonder where is Vader's defense against this?

"So," said Dumbledore, slipping off the desk to sit on the floor with Harry, "you, like hundreds before you, have discovered the delights of the Mirror of Erised."
"I didn't know it was called that, Sir."
"But I expect you've realized by now what it does."
"It — well — it shows me my family —"
"And it showed your friend Ron himself as head boy."
"How did you know —."
"I don't need a cloak to become invisible," said Dumbledore gently.

-Taken from:Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone

Movie vader has no feats concerning invisibility.

Secondly, Muggle repelling charm. It acts as a ward against muggles and the sort, this can be utilized against Movie Vader. There's also the cheering charm which could make Vader go into an uncontrollable laughing fit, along with confundo.

There's plenty of stunning charms also.

Book Dumbledore has reacted to things in mere /moments/ not seconds, not minutes, but moments. When a fiery snake was an /instant/ away from ripping him apart, with the flick of his wand, he dissipated it.

Voldemort vanished; the snake reared from the floor, ready to strike--

There was a burst of flame in midair above Dumbledore just as Voldemort reappeared, standing on the plinth in the middle of the pool where so recently the five statues had stood.

'Look out!' Harry yelled.

But even as he shouted, another jet of green light flew at Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake struck--

Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide and swallowed the jet of green light whole: he burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless. At the same moment, Dumbledore brandished his wand in one long, fluid movement--the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a wisp of dark smoke; and the water in the pool rose up and covered Voldemort like a cocoon of molten glass.

Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.

Dumbledore has teleported at instand and second.

A teleporting Wizard with years of knowledge, teleporting around Movie Vader and barraging him with spells every moment, I mean Movie Vader's speed and reaction doesn't compare to Book Dumbledore.

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#44 Posted by glubgluby (463 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks: valid points but we arent debating a movie vader, were debating EU vader.

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#45 Posted by DarkRaiden (15466 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks: He and other Jedi/Sith block laser fire with their lightsabers. Spells are also visible light that is shot and needs to hit a target for it to work, same principle applies.

Vader can sense people through the force, invisibility nor spells block that.

Moments can be and are usually much longer than seconds. Vader blocks laser fire with his hands and saber, he has much, much better reaction speed.

All those charms can and will be blocked, and still nothing to protect against force choke.

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#46 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (2295 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: I've given evidence after evidence, piece after piece...You've presented nothing.

Movie Vader's combat feats shows nothing about him using Force Choke in combat.

Secondly, Dumbledore stun Vader BEFORE he got a force choke on him. I've presented Dumbledore's speed feats.

Show me Vader blocking Blaster fire in the movies.

Show me him doing it with his hands.

Look, I'm arguing against MOVIE vader. Suit-movie vader. He's extremely slow, he never blocked blaster fire with his hands or his saber, thus he isn't entitled to these feats. I understand Dumbledore doesn't stand a chance against Expanded Universe Vader. On a second point, Expelliarmus the disarming charm has never been blocked by anything other then being intercepted by another spell. Dumbledore can do wordless magic thus he can appear and then disarm vader of his saber, then finish him off with a stunning charm.

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#47 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to say book dumbledore would surely win against movie vader. Movie dumbledore? It's a toss-up, depending on force choke.

Other versions of vader, though I'm unfamiliar with them, should take it from what I've seen on battle boards.

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#48 Edited by DarkRaiden (15466 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: I've given evidence after evidence, piece after piece...You've presented nothing.

Movie Vader's combat feats shows nothing about him using Force Choke in combat.

Secondly, Dumbledore stun Vader BEFORE he got a force choke on him. I've presented Dumbledore's speed feats.

Show me Vader blocking Blaster fire in the movies.

Show me him doing it with his hands.

Look, I'm arguing against MOVIE vader. Suit-movie vader. He's extremely slow, he never blocked blaster fire with his hands or his saber, thus he isn't entitled to these feats. I understand Dumbledore doesn't stand a chance against Expanded Universe Vader. On a second point, Expelliarmus the disarming charm has never been blocked by anything other then being intercepted by another spell. Dumbledore can do wordless magic thus he can appear and then disarm vader of his saber, then finish him off with a stunning charm.

He blocked Han's shots with his hand. Several times during Cloud City/Lando's betrayal. He also beat Obi-Wan who we've seen block blaster bolts with his saber. Hell pre-training Luke was blocking blaster shots.

Vader doesn't need feats of him using Force choke in combat. We know he can do it and likes to use it. We've only seen him fight 2 people, Luke who's his son, Obi-Wan that has the force and can block force choke, no one else. His go to move on non force users is force choke.

Dumbledore doesn't immediately attack for one, and those speed feats are non existent, no faster than a normal athletic person tbh. His stun spell will be dodged or blocked, with a lightsaber, or even worse it won't even penetrate his suit.

Dumbeldore doesn't even use expelliarmus IC and wordless magic is fine, but Vader can read his mind as he did to Luke while fighting him.

He can't just "appear" he makes a loud popping sound, has some disorientation (very little) and then his disarm may or may not work on Vader. Even if it does, Vader can call his saber back to him, throw a giant piece of w/e at Dumbledore with the force to KO him, throw Dumbledore himself with the force, take Dumbledore's wand with the force, and more.

Vader's the likely winner as Dumbledore has to get off spells on a guy who blocks blaster fire with ease, who's in armor (spells might not even work), and who has TK powers and can mind read AND sense. Vader wins with ease.

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#49 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks said:

@darkraiden: I've given evidence after evidence, piece after piece...You've presented nothing.

Movie Vader's combat feats shows nothing about him using Force Choke in combat.

Secondly, Dumbledore stun Vader BEFORE he got a force choke on him. I've presented Dumbledore's speed feats.

Show me Vader blocking Blaster fire in the movies.

Show me him doing it with his hands.

Look, I'm arguing against MOVIE vader. Suit-movie vader. He's extremely slow, he never blocked blaster fire with his hands or his saber, thus he isn't entitled to these feats. I understand Dumbledore doesn't stand a chance against Expanded Universe Vader. On a second point, Expelliarmus the disarming charm has never been blocked by anything other then being intercepted by another spell. Dumbledore can do wordless magic thus he can appear and then disarm vader of his saber, then finish him off with a stunning charm.

He blocked Han's shots with his hand. Several times during Cloud City/Lando's betrayal. He also beat Obi-Wan who we've seen block blaster bolts with his saber. Hell pre-training Luke was blocking blaster shots.

Vader doesn't need feats of him using Force choke in combat. We know he can do it and likes to use it. We've only seen him fight 2 people, Luke who's his son, Obi-Wan that has the force and can block force choke, no one else. His go to move on non force users is force choke.

Dumbledore doesn't immediately attack for one, and those speed feats are non existent, no faster than a normal athletic person tbh. His stun spell will be dodged or blocked, with a lightsaber, or even worse it won't even penetrate his suit.

Dumbeldore doesn't even use expelliarmus IC and wordless magic is fine, but Vader can read his mind as he did to Luke while fighting him.

He can't just "appear" he makes a loud popping sound, has some disorientation (very little) and then his disarm may or may not work on Vader. Even if it does, Vader can call his saber back to him, throw a giant piece of w/e at Dumbledore with the force to KO him, throw Dumbledore himself with the force, take Dumbledore's wand with the force, and more.

Vader's the likely winner as Dumbledore has to get off spells on a guy who blocks blaster fire with ease, who's in armor (spells might not even work), and who has TK powers and can mind read AND sense. Vader wins with ease.

Some things to be cleared here:

Dumbledore is well trained enough in occlumency and legilimency, enough to be sure he could have successfully trained harry in it:

"Occlumency, Potter. The magical defense of the mind against external penetration. An obscure branch of magic, but a highly useful one"

-Severus snape, Order of the Phoenix

“Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!” Harry snarled. “He threw me out of his office!”

“I am aware of it,” said Dumbledore heavily “I have already said that it was a mistake for me not to teach you myself, though I was sure, at the time, that nothing could have been more dangerous than to open your mind even further to Voldemort while in my presence –”

-Albus dumbledore, order of the Phoenix.

So he should be able to defend himself against mind reading, arguably a lower level technique than legilimency, which gives you audiovisual flashes.

Dumbledore used only strong spell against Voldemort because he knew small spells like stunners and expelliarmus could easily be countered by a wizard in voldemort's class. Just because he didn't use it in one fight he had against a proper opponent, doesn't mean he won't use it against a sword wearing opponent. Which seems like a standard way, as voldemort used it when neville tried charging at him with sword of gryffindor.

And the spells harry learned are the ones taught in school, NEWT levels at best. Dumbledore was the top wizard in school, he actually had magic even his OWL examiner hadn't seen before. It's fair to say he should know the spells we've seen in school, and more.

Next, doesn't they need to focus a little when they have to force choke? I'm not sure it will work if dumbledore starts teleporting around and rains spells on him. Not focus as in really concentrate, but they have to know where the person is etc at least, right? Could you post some quotes to clarify on the matter?

Lightsabre and armor isn't going to be very helpful here, as it could be transfigured into a rabbit pretty easily. Unless any of them have shown defenses against transfiguration.

Only problem I see is the difference in speed. Book dumbledore can more than handle movie vader. How fast is book vader?

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#50 Edited by Remnet (205 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks:

Darth Vader Blocking Blaster fire with his hand (sorry for bad quality, he also blocks blaster fire with a lightsaber countless times throughout the Attack of the Clones, Clone Wars series, it's a very basic skill every Jedi can do it)

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LightSaber used to block force lightning ( Vader does this is a novel, I don't have a direct quote, but this clip is happening right in front of him so he very much knows it is possible. Additionally Force Powers are arguably the equivalent to magic)

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TBH this is just going to end with Vader being turned into a kitten or a puppy or some other adorable little pet.

Also I think it's worth noting that 'muggle' technology tends to malfunction around magic, I don't remember the exact quotes, but there is a ban on muggle electronics because the schools wards could cause them to malfunction and break. This could very much apply to Darth Vaders breathing apparatus causing him to suffocate.