Aizen and Madara vs SDS

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MCU-Defender333

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@mcu-defender333:

So every mangaka now has an onus to draw craters for blasts despite showcasing their power via AoE shots instead, got it.

Yes. Pretty much every mangaka does it, including Nakaba. Not my fault for pointing out his intent.

Honestly the Danafor feat was comparable to the size of that fragor.

size =/= power. Danafor was only mountain busting while Aizen's Fragor is multi-mountain with Ultra Fragor as island busting.

And for the record, Ban took no serious damage from those Sighing Sage blasts (he had no form of protection and kept fighting the DK after they'd stopped firing).

Goodie, he can deal with the force of one blast. How about the heat? Oh right, Escanor melting armor is still considered to be pretty impressive...

Sorry but there's no 'might' about it, the thought of Mel or Ban being one-shotted by a single fragor is laughable. They'd take some damage, but no way would they die.

They'd die. If they somehow survive, Ultrafragor.

But anyway, as you said, Mel can just FC them anyway. Would be kinda hilarious to see the look on Aizen's face, after firing half a dozen of them, to see them coming back towards him at more than double the strength.

Yeah that'd be a problem, good thing that isn't what we're discussing about.

Yes. Pretty much every mangaka does it, including Nakaba. Not my fault for pointing out his intent.

In every single case? I don't think so, I've seen loads of cases where craters aren't involved. You can't base an argument on there being a lack of craters.

'size =/= power. Danafor was only mountain busting while Aizen's Fragor is multi-mountain with Ultra Fragor as island busting.'

Ah, going down that route- except there's little to nothing to showcase fragor's AP. Also funny you say size doesn't equal power then claim fragor is multi-mountain immediately after. And since when was it proved to be multi-mountain?

Not that it matters too much, as that version of Mel (32K, 50s at most with demon mark) would be fodder to current Mel and Ban.

'Goodie, he can deal with the force of one blast. How about the heat? Oh right, Escanor melting armor is still considered to be pretty impressive...'

Dude, reaching a bit there. 'Haha, you dealt with the force! But here's the heat! (or is it the other way around, I forget)'. Fragor's heat feats are...what, exactly? It was an explosion, plain and simple, same as the DK's. Explosions have both force and heat, it's not as if the DK dropped a sonic boom on them.

Sorry, did you want Merlin or someone to pop out and say "wow, that blast from the DK's was really hot! Yes it was powerful, but the heat! I brought my magic thermometer here and it says it went up to 10,000,000 degrees"?

And Escanor was vaping lakes and castles casually in a form that would be considered a non-factor to current Mel/Ban, stop lowballing.

'They'd die. If they somehow survive, Ultrafragor.'

Which is featless as Ichigo broke it (poor Aizen).

'Yeah that'd be a problem, good thing that isn't what we're discussing about.'

Fair enough but it's gonna happen, what with Aizen bloodlusted in this fight and determined to murder them.

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FaradaySloth

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@mcu-defender333:

In every single case? I don't think so, I've seen loads of cases where craters aren't involved. You can't base an argument on there being a lack of craters.

You've seen loads of mangaka who write action series not create any crater? At all?

Why can't I base an argument for an explosion that didn't even create a crater?

Ah, going down that route- except there's little to nothing to showcase fragor's AP.

>Visible from KKT

>Dwarfs mountain ranges

>a portion of the crater can fit several mountains on its own.

Lmao.

Also funny you say size doesn't equal power then claim fragor is multi-mountain immediately after. And since when was it proved to be multi-mountain?

Look at the latter of the three points above.

Not that it matters too much, as that version of Mel (32K, 50s at most with demon mark) would be fodder to current Mel and Ban.

Pretty sad then how Current Mel and Ban haven't shown anything that wouldn't show a vape happening.

Dude, reaching a bit there. 'Haha, you dealt with the force! But here's the heat! (or is it the other way around, I forget)'. Fragor's heat feats are...what, exactly?

Vaporizing thousands of tons of rock instantly, then proceeding to melt crags at rapid speeds from miles away.

Fun Fact: Nuclear Blasts haven't done this. Want me to bring in the heat of Nuclear Blasts for you?

It was an explosion, plain and simple, same as the DK's. Explosions have both force and heat, it's not as if the DK dropped a sonic boom on them.

False Equivalence Fallacy. Might as well call Guila's Explosions on the same level as Freiza's blasts since they are "explosions, plain and simple"

Sorry, did you want Merlin or someone to pop out and say "wow, that blast from the DK's was really hot! Yes it was powerful, but the heat! I brought my magic thermometer here and it says it went up to 10,000,000 degrees"?

Nah, but seeing an obvious feat is fun to use.

And Escanor was vaping lakes and castles casually in a form that would be considered a non-factor to current Mel/Ban, stop lowballing.

Escanor never vaped a castle. Sunshine clearly still remains as one of the most powerful abilities in Nanatsu no Taizai.

Which is featless as Ichigo broke it (poor Aizen).

You don't even need feats to know 6-12 Fragors combined = way more powerful than the already 1 multi-mountain attack.

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BrainDrain

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Whats with this sudden highballing of the danafor feat? We've already established it's around mountain+ probably a bit more, anything above that is a magnitude of wank.

Not to mention it was done under circumstances most characters in the verse cant be applied to, to scale it to every hightier is absolutely laughable. Faulty garbage like that puts people off from actually wanting to read the series.

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deactivated-6043ec881391e

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@braindrain: Wait, people are reading the series for the sake of Comicvine? That's sad.

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TheCrystalBall

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@thecrystalball:

Ban is far faster

Um, no he isn't? Having effects from attacks from dozens of miles away have been replicated by way weaker characters than the Duo.

and the holy staff Courechouse allows for attacks to hit the opponent regardless of position so Madara and Aizen would get hit by tens of thousands of DK level attacks while trying to maneuver close to Ban.

There's no proof suggesting Courechouse is as hard-hitting as Ban's actual strikes.

stop trolling Sacred Treasures literally bring out the strength of a Sin they make them way stronger.

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BrainDrain

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@braindrain: Wait, people are reading the series for the sake of Comicvine? That's sad.

No, but If one had the common sense to piece together CV is a website to discuss fiction, what I said would be self explanatory.

What's sad is how anyone managed to screw that up, I'd be more concerned with reading an actual book than any comic/manga if I were you.

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FaradaySloth

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@faradaysloth said:

@thecrystalball:

Ban is far faster

Um, no he isn't? Having effects from attacks from dozens of miles away have been replicated by way weaker characters than the Duo.

and the holy staff Courechouse allows for attacks to hit the opponent regardless of position so Madara and Aizen would get hit by tens of thousands of DK level attacks while trying to maneuver close to Ban.

There's no proof suggesting Courechouse is as hard-hitting as Ban's actual strikes.

stop trolling Sacred Treasures literally bring out the strength of a Sin they make them way stronger.

You'd be right if this is Meliodas with Lostvayne, but what Ban did with his sacred weapon was nowhere near what he did by himself at the moment.

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deactivated-6043ec881391e

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@braindrain:

> claims faulty scaling puts people off from reading the series

> insults my English (third language but hardly relevant) comprehension when his claim was called into question

???

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BrainDrain

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#209  Edited By BrainDrain

@thousandsteps said:

> claims faulty scaling puts people off from reading the series

As well as guys like you but that must've went over your head aswell.

> insults my English (third language but hardly relevant) comprehension when his claim was called into question

I read and write in several languages fluently aswell and I probably still wouldnt miss the point by such a wide margin if I can understand the words being used. You insulted yourself by proving small tasks to be above you, no such words came from me.

???

You tagged me claiming something I clearly didnt say was sad so In turn I let you know how sad it was that someone couldn't decipher a simple sentence.

Nothing else to be gone over here mate, just dont tag me, you're dismissed.

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deactivated-6043ec881391e

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@braindrain: Your reply is how I know my point went above your head too.

I’m gonna assume one of 3 things: you were in a tired/drunken state while typing that, you failed to word it properly or you don’t mean what you say. I won’t hold it against you though.

Imagine not reading a piece of fiction because of a random Internet user. Your life must be miserable lol. Your parents should apologize to you for raising such a sensitive individual.

Anyway, sorry for tagging you.

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BrainDrain

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#211  Edited By BrainDrain

@thousandsteps said:

@braindrain: Your reply is how I know my point went above your head too.

You tagged me first, so clearly what I was saying is the topic of discussion. It really is embarrassing that you cant comprehend a language you claim to be fluent in.

I’m gonna assume one of 3 things: you were in a tired/drunken state while typing that, you failed to word it properly or you don’t mean what you say. I won’t hold it against you though.

No sir, not even mildly intoxicated, it's just what I said probably was so far beyond your own comprehension skills that it threw you into a slue of gibberish. It's only normal for people like you to get angry when they cant understand something.

Imagine not reading a piece of fiction because of a random Internet user. Your life must be miserable lol. Your parents should apologize to you for raising such a sensitive individual.

Uh oh an insult.....

*hits drink*

The only thing sensitive here is your mother's gag reflex on the account she didnt swallow you, I think everyone on this website is in waiting for a written apology at this point.

Imagine being so far gone that you think a fictional board gains you any aptitude in life while also being so incompetent to not know Comicvine is a website to discuss fictional characters. Ignorance truly is bliss it seems.

Anyway, sorry for tagging you.

Dismissed. Just try touching up on English literature than any Manga/comic. It helps in the long run.

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jc9865

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#212  Edited By jc9865

Sins both rounds

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@braindrain said:
@thousandsteps said:

@braindrain: Your reply is how I know my point went above your head too.

You tagged me first, so clearly what I was saying is the topic of discussion. It really is embarrassing that you cant comprehend a language you claim to be fluent in.

I’m gonna assume one of 3 things: you were in a tired/drunken state while typing that, you failed to word it properly or you don’t mean what you say. I won’t hold it against you though.

No sir, not even mildly intoxicated, it's just what I said probably was so far beyond your own comprehension skills that it threw you into a slue of gibberish. It's only normal for people like you to get angry when they cant understand something.

Funnily enough, none of my assumptions were correct. You simply read my first comment too fast and didn't consider it when typing a reply. Also, I never claimed I was fluent in English. If anything, I implied the opposite. So much for reading comprehension.

Imagine not reading a piece of fiction because of a random Internet user. Your life must be miserable lol. Your parents should apologize to you for raising such a sensitive individual.

Uh oh an insult.....

*hits drink*

The only thing sensitive here is your mother's gag reflex on the account she didnt swallow you, I think everyone on this website is in waiting for a written apology at this point.

Imagine being so far gone that you think a fictional board gains you any aptitude in life while also being so incompetent to not know Comicvine is a website to discuss fictional characters. Ignorance truly is bliss it seems.

That's possibly the cringiest shit I've read on CV. Thank god bleach isn't available to me at the moment. hItS dRiNk You are trying way too hard my dude, it's obvious to me that your feelings are bleeding right now. Though this would make great content for r/iamverysmart or r/iamverybadass.

Anyway, sorry for tagging you.

Dismissed. Just try touching up on English literature than any Manga/comic. It helps in the long run.

I'm afraid 4chan doesn't qualify as literature.

However, I genuinely, like all banters and insults aside, encourage you to read my initial comment slowly. That just might change your opinion. I do not expect to get a reply, but I truly hope you consider what I just said.

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LeoTheGreatest

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#214  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@hittheassasin:

Yes, that's what you said as an attempt to prove that Kyoka Suigetsu's power could be increased by Aizen and that it was above a standard illusion that effected all 5 senses, seeing as to how it was your response to me saying Kyoka Suigetsu never had anything to do with raw power. Now, in my latest rebuttal to you, I debunked the fact the fact that Kyoka Suigetsu overpowered Almighty in a direct contest of strength, thereby by proving you wrong. Keep up with your own argumentation next time.

Both of my claims literally happened on Panel. Kyouka Suigetsu has on panel worked on 7 senses or 8 if you include "instinct" and Yhwach claimed KS was "broken" and that it wasn't a match for his power meaning it does have a raw power aspect to it.

But this point is obviously stupid, since the Almighty has no other feats against illusions. Essentially, you've just mitigated your argument to: "Kyoka Suigetsu affected Yhwach, who hasn't been effected by other illusions/who has not showings that suggest other illusions would work on him, hence it must be more potent than a standard illusion". This is dumb for the obvious reason that Yhwach has never been tested against illusions before this, and you by proxy cannot assume he has any form of resistance to them, negating your entire point.

The only imbecilic claim here would be yours. Based on the Almighty's abilities and how Yhwach thought he could break and see through KS means that other abilities like KS wouldn't inherently work on him.

Your bias and double standards are laughable. You make the absurd claim that the duos "sensory fortitude" will counter KS something far above NNT yet you say that The Almighty an ability that grants the user Omni-precognition and allows you to counter conceptual hax can't break you out of abilities like KS. Ridiculous.

I mean, I severely doubt it and am 99% sure you're backtracking in order to save face, because if that is what you meant your initial argument would be completely devoid of sense, since you were implying what Aizen did with Sakanade was the same as what Ban and Meliodas did with Purgatory, which you yourself stated just wasn't affecting them at all anymore(they had complete use of their senses, according to you).

No you're using a textbook strawman that i'm not going to entertain.

Saying the effects it has on your senses isn't very potent is head canon and backed by nothing, because all we know is that it no longer affected Ban after hundreds of years, which isn't a bad showing. I'll ask you again: What proof is there its effects on the senses is weak, or less potent than any standard "illusion"? I've already offered proof for my side of the argument, it's about time you try to.

First of all stop asking for proof when you entire argument is based on something without any proof whatsoever.

When Ban returned to normal we saw that he immediately had his senses return with the first thing he literally did was yell out and prove he had his hearing intact.

Right to left

I'm not overlooking it because it's irrelevant. Yamamoto could sense the reiatsu of Aizen's sword stabbing through him regardless of whether Kyoka Suigetsu was active or not(after all, he had knowledge of the weakness), which is why he made that statement, and guess what? Aizen didn't contradict him. This being the same Aizen that has consistently corrected almost all misinformation in regards to his abilities at every point in the series.

No. We know that Aizen wasn't using Kyouka Suigetsu at the time and that it's weakness is touching the blade before the hypnosis is fully set meaning Yamamoto just accidentally found it's weakness but chose to believe he could sense Aizen no matter what which contradicts it's actual weakness which Gin the only person Aizen actually told proved was it's only weakness.

Sakanade is literally featless in regards to how hard adaptation to it is, excluding the Aizen showing, which doesn't paint a positive picture in that regard. So go on, mind actually proving it's harder to adapt to than Purgatory objectively? You'll find it impossible, since it defies all manner of logic and common sense, just like most of your arguments in favour of Bleach.

This is a very pitiful lie seeing as how we have the more proof of how intricately Sakenade works and even the obvious fact that it's even worst for more experienced fighters.

And stop trying to point the bias card at me. You're not only biased in favour of NNT but have proven you're biased against Bleach as well.

Anyways the only objective conclusion one can come to concerning purgatory's affect on the senses is that it only truly affects weak characters senses to a high degree like Merlin's father seeing as how the stronger Ban showed no difficulty in using all of his senses.

As shown here in the scans I posted before

Right to left

His main problem was the physical damage it incurred never that his senses were affected to a high degree.

In the end your "argument" is just headcanon and you being disingenuous.

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HitTheAssasin

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#215  Edited By HitTheAssasin

@leothegreatest:

Both on my claims literally happened on Panel. Kyouka Suigetsu has on panel worked on 7 senses or 8 if you include "instinct" and Yhwach claimed KS was "broken" and that it wasn't a match for his power meaning it does have a raw power aspect to it.

Reading this makes me wonder if you ever actually bothered taking in my post at all, because I addressed this very point. Kyoka Suigetsu being broken was obviously and clearly referring to Yhwach breaking Aizen's sword when the latter was approaching him and nothing more. As for it not being a match for his power, there are 2 things I have to say:

  1. Why are you using a demonstrably false statement to prove your point?
  2. How does that prove anything, given Yhwach was referring to his power as a whole, more specifically The Almighty, which he thought allowed him to see through Kyoka Suigetsu?

The only imbecilic claim here would be yours. Based on how the Almighty's abilities and how Yhwach thought he could break and see through KS means that other abilities like KS wouldn't inherently work on him.

This logic is asinine. Just because some character thinks his abilities are superior and allow him to perform certain feats don't actually mean he can, if he's proven false directly after. Let's just take Gilthunder's statement from Chapter 5 of Seven Deadly Sins as an example: He says he'll wipe out Meliodas along with with the forest, and then is demonstrably proven wrong by failing to wipe out Meliodas. Does that mean we can conclude Gilthunder is superior to someone with Meliodas' abilities and that Meliodas somehow improved in the middle of the fight? Obviously not. What about Aizen stating he can wipe out Dangai Ichigo with a single swing of his sword, the same one that just erased a hill with the shockwave of his blow? Does that mean Aizen scales above that feat since he thought he was >> that level of power, despite Ichigo's statements later on? Once again, obviously not, because his statement literally proven false directly after he made it and thus has no credibility.

Your bias and double standards are laughable. You make the absurd claim that the duos "sensory fortitude" will counter KS something far above NNT yet you say that The Almighty an ability that grants the user Omni-precognition and allows you to counter conceptual hax can't break you out of abilities like KS. Ridiculous.

Are you sure you've actually read Bleach? The reason Kyoka Suigetsu was able to work on Yhwach's Almighty was quite specifically because Yhwach still uses his senses to see into the future(in other words, his eyes), which was emphasised multiple times throughout the arc through the specific uses of words like "see" and the emphasis that was placed on Yhwach's eyes as a whole:

In other words, manipulating that sense is the perfect counter to his ability to see the future, because you're preventing him from properly accessing the power by altering what he see's. This isn't something that makes Kyoka Suigetsu special, quite the contrary. Literally any ability that can shut down or manipulate Yhwach's sense of sight can misdirect the Almighty, if we go by actual feats and the statements the series prevents us with.

No you're using a textbook strawman that i'm not going to entertain.

I mean, if you say so. It's not really relevant at this point either, so I'm willing to drop it.

First of all stop asking for proof when you entire argument is based on something without any proof whatsoever.

No, stop spreading falsehoods. I've shown you multiple scans that show and state Purgatory messing with the senses, and other scans that prove even the entire year Merlin's father was in it, his senses were being altered by Purgatory due to the statements Merlin made after her fathers encounter with the place, proving it exists and has a certain level of bare minimum potency. Now you're saying Purgatory's sense alteration is somehow weak and can be overcome by raw power, and I'm asking you to prove that is the case. Own up to your side of the burden of proof and at least attempt to find me an instance you can use as a paper shield here.

When Ban returned to normal we saw that he immediately had his senses return with the first thing he literally did was yell out and prove he had his hearing intact.

Oh, good job reposting the same instance that was already addressed like it's a new argument. Yes, you can make the argument that Ban had regained his senses at this point, but once again, it doesn't prove a thing. Because at this point in time, centuries had already passed since his entering into Purgatory, meaning the only objective conclusion you can draw is that Ban had his senses intact after hundreds of years of time to increase his sensory fortitude:

No Caption Provided

No we know that Aizen wasn't using Kyouka Suigetsu at the time and that it's weakness is touching the blade before the hypnosis is fully set meaning Yamamoto just accidentally found it's weakness but chose to believe he could sense Aizen no matter what which contradicts it's actual weakness which Gin the only person Aizen actually told proved was it's only weakness.

Yes, we know Aizen wasn't using Kyoka Suigetsu at the time. Now, how about you try to remember why we know this? Oh wait, it's because Yamamoto literally stated he could sense the reiatsu of Aizen' sword regardless of whether he was in an illusion or not, and Aizen didn't contradict him despite consistently doing so to anyone who spouted falsehoods in front of him throughout the entire arc.

This is a very pitiful lie seeing as how we have the more proof of how intricately it works and even the obvious fact that it's even worst for more experienced fighters.

I stated it has no feats in regards to how hard it is to adapt to, which is true. We have only got one statement, which is then directly contradicted by Aizen achieving what Shinji called impossible just an instant before that, meaning all we have is Shinji's word that it's "very hard" to adapt to such a thing, which is hardly a metric by which we can consider it on-par with Purgatory.

And stop trying to point the bias card at me. You're not only biased n favour of NNT but have proven you're biased against Bleach as well.

I didn't say anything about bias in my post, just about how your arguments in favour of Bleach are as bad as ever.

Anyways the only objective conclusion one can come to concerning purgatory's affect on the senses is that it only truly affects weak characters senses to a high degree like Merlin's father seeing as how the stronger Ban showed no difficulty in using all of his senses.

Except that that conclusion is, you know, silly and backed by nothing, since sensory manipulation is inherently a hax that doesn't care about stats unless explicitly stated otherwise. In other words, the actually objective conclusion we can come to is that one year of time isn't enough for a highly skilled wizard to do anything about its sensory effects, but that hundreds of years are enough for Ban to do so. Mind explaining to me where, from these 2 pieces of information you have, you're drawing the objective conclusion that it depends on raw power?

His main problem was the physical damage it incurred never that his senses were affected to a high degree.

Irrelevant, since all this would show is that physical effects of Purgatory took longer for Ban to adapt to than the sensory manipulation, which proves nothing in this context.

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Earendill

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Meliodas or Escanor solostomps. Mismatch.

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BrainDrain

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Better hope Bans Sacred treasure does something, cos if not a highly determined Madara drags them across the planet in a stomp.

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jc9865

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@braindrain: How. Most of the Sins at this point could keep up with Madara 1v1

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LeoTheGreatest

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@hittheassasin:

Reading this makes me wonder if you ever actually bothered taking in my post at all, because I addressed this very point. Kyoka Suigetsu being broken was obviously and clearly referring to Yhwach breaking Aizen's sword when the latter was approaching him and nothing more. As for it not being a match for his power, there are 2 things I have to say:

No, him breaking the blade has nothing to do with the ability because Aizen himself is the blade and i'm using that statement because it doesn't matter if it was false the important part is that it indicates that Kyouka Suigetsu has to be overpowered with an ability.

This logic is asinine. Just because some character thinks his abilities are superior and allow him to perform certain feats don't actually mean he can, if he's proven false directly after. Let's just take Gilthunder's statement from Chapter 5 of Seven Deadly Sins as an example: He says he'll wipe out Meliodas along with with the forest, and then is demonstrably proven wrong by failing to wipe out Meliodas. Does that mean we can conclude Gilthunder is superior to someone with Meliodas' abilities and that Meliodas somehow improved in the middle of the fight? Obviously not. What about Aizen stating he can wipe out Dangai Ichigo with a single swing of his sword, the same one that just erased a hill with the shockwave of his blow? Does that mean Aizen scales above that feat since he thought he was >> that level of power, despite Ichigo's statements later on? Once again, obviously not, because his statement literally proven false directly after he made it and thus has no credibility.

The only idiotic post here is yours seeing as how were talking about how a certain ability functions yet you correlated it to characters statements about their raw power.

And did you bring up Ichigo's feat and downplay in attempt to trigger me? That's adorable especially since you used to call it a mountain. Your current bias against Bleach is ridiculously transparent.

Are you sure you've actually read Bleach? The reason Kyoka Suigetsu was able to work on Yhwach's Almighty was quite specifically because Yhwach still uses his senses to see into the future(in other words, his eyes), which was emphasised multiple times throughout the arc through the specific uses of words like "see" and the emphasis that was placed on Yhwach's eyes as a whole:

In other words, manipulating that sense is the perfect counter to his ability to see the future, because you're preventing him from properly accessing the power by altering what he see's. This isn't something that makes Kyoka Suigetsu special, quite the contrary. Literally any ability that can shut down or manipulate Yhwach's sense of sight can misdirect the Almighty, if we go by actual feats and the statements the series prevents us with.

Your entire assessment of that encounter is fundamentally wrong. Normal illusions can never counter The Almighty because Yhwach would just see the ability working from start to finish in the future and then nullify it and become immune to it in the present like he did to Ichibei's Ichimoji.

The only way you'd be correct is if it was directly stated that illusions were The Almighty's weakness but on the contrary Yhwach was more than sure he can break through KS in the manner that I just explained.

So in conclusion Kyouka Suigetsu works on the concept of senses and is a stronger conceptual hax than Ichibei's Ichimoji.

The rest of your argument isn't backed by any evidence whatsoever. It's just you continuing to put your head canon over feats and being disingenuous. Merlin's father being a skillful mage doesn't change the fact that he was fodder and purgatory has never shown to greatly affect the senses of someone who isn't fodder. This is backed up by the fact that Ban and Meliodas are never shown having their senses affected orsaying anything about their senses being affected. And regarding Sakenade we both know you're completely dishonest especially when you try to use Aizen's feat as a way to downplay it knowing well Aizen's intellect is far above NNT.

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TheCrystalBall

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#220  Edited By TheCrystalBall

Better hope Bans Sacred treasure does something, cos if not a highly determined Madara drags them across the planet in a stomp.

Madara can't drag anyone across the planet

Ban's Sacred Treasure defeated millions of city+ Baby Indras in seconds. His Assault Hunt can attack opponents regardless of where they are. His Assault Hunt seems to have better speed feats than anything in Naruto.

Madara is in a world of pain if he tries to take on Ban.

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deactivated-605fa2b8d3995

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@thecrystalball: not million, thousands, but ok. And one baby indura is like grey demon hendrickson level.

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TheCrystalBall

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#222  Edited By TheCrystalBall

@mevbi said:

@thecrystalball: not million, thousands, but ok. And one baby indura is like grey demon hendrickson level.

You mean the thousands of presences mentioned by gowther? millions were spread across britania the entire skies were filled of them

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HitTheAssasin

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@leothegreatest:

No, him breaking the blade has nothing to do with the ability because Aizen himself is the blade and i'm using that statement because it doesn't matter if it was false the important part is that it indicates that Kyouka Suigetsu has to be overpowered with an ability.

Good to see you're catching on. Yhwach mistakenly thought breaking the blade would stop Kyoka Suigetsu's abilities like it did to both Ichigo and Renji's Bankai's because that's how it works with Zanpaktou's, not knowing the nature of Aizen's powers differ from the standard. And no, Yhwach's statement doesn't indicate that in the least, as anyone with any knowledge on Bleach could tell you, he was referring to power in the context of "ability", and how it wouldn't work against his Almighty, as I have previously explained.

Him being wrong is also very relevant, because even if you think his statement did indicate that, him then still being explicitly effected indicates that....well, you know...the indication was wrong, given the fact that Yhwach > Aizen in raw power.

The only idiotic post here is yours seeing as how were talking about how a certain ability functions yet you correlated it to characters statements about their raw power.

It's just an analogy, I'm trying to make a point here. If someone says something and it's directly contradicted after that, why are you using it as an indication for anything, given the fact that it was explicitly and completely wrong, which in turn means that any indication it might have made is rendered moot.

And did you bring up Ichigo's feat and downplay in attempt to trigger me? That's adorable especially since you used to call it a mountain. Your current bias against Bleach is ridiculously transparent.

Mountain or hill, the terminology doesn't really matter, its size is apparent to any with the capacity to grasp scale.

Your entire assessment of that encounter is fundamentally wrong. Normal illusions can never counter The Almighty because Yhwach would just see the ability working from start to finish in the future and then nullify it and become immune to it in the present like he did to Ichibei's Ichimoji.

Given how clear your stance on the matter is, I'm sure you wouldn't mind providing feats for this? Feats for Yhwach nullifying illusions and being able to bypass their effects by looking into the future?

The only way you'd be correct is if it was directly stated that illusions were The Almighty's weakness but on the contrary Yhwach was more than sure he can break through KS in the manner that I just explained.

Which is rendered moot by the fact that he then explicitly failed to, proving that advanced sensory illusions can counter the Almighty by manipulating what Yhwach sees as the future.

So in conclusion Kyouka Suigetsu works on the concept of senses and is a stronger conceptual hax than Ichibei's Ichimoji.

It working on the "concept of senses" not only makes no sense, but isn't backed by anything other than your own interpretation, which at this point is basically head-canon in order to elevate Bleach to a higher level than it actually is.

The rest of your argument isn't backed by any evidence whatsoever. It's just you continuing to put your head canon over feats and being disingenuous. Merlin's father being a skillful mage doesn't change the fact that he was fodder and purgatory has never shown to greatly affect the senses of someone who isn't fodder. This is backed up by the fact that Ban and Meliodas are never shown having their senses affected orsaying anything about their senses being affected. And regarding Sakenade we both know you're completely dishonest especially when you try to use Aizen's feat as a way to downplay it knowing well Aizen's intellect is far above NNT.

Literally everything you said here has been adressed, and as for Ban and Meliodas never saying their senses were effected, it's not relevant. Lack of a statement regarding effect =/= proof of lack of an effect, as anyone who has mastered the concept of basic logic could probably tell you. Aizen being > NNT in intellect is also something you've been repeating for a while now, and while arguably true, is totally irrelevant to the point, as is per the usual with your arguments.

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LeoTheGreatest

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#224  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@hittheassasin:

Good to see you're catching on. Yhwach mistakenly thought breaking the blade would stop Kyoka Suigetsu's abilities like it did to both Ichigo and Renji's Bankai's because that's how it works with Zanpaktou's, not knowing the nature of Aizen's powers differ from the standard. And no, Yhwach's statement doesn't indicate that in the least, as anyone with any knowledge on Bleach could tell you, he was referring to power in the context of "ability", and how it wouldn't work against his Almighty, as I have previously explained.

Him being wrong is also very relevant, because even if you think his statement did indicate that, him then still being explicitly effected indicates that....well, you know...the indication was wrong, given the fact that Yhwach > Aizen in raw power.

You do realize that that circles back to a power v power anyways right? Which is backed up by Yhwach asking Aizen if he dispelled Kyouka Suigetsu do to overconfidence that they defeated him or because he lacked the power to continue resisting him.

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It's just an analogy, I'm trying to make a point here. If someone says something and it's directly contradicted after that, why are you using it as an indication for anything, given the fact that it was explicitly and completely wrong, which in turn means that any indication it might have made is rendered moot.

You failed at making a point here there's no reason why other similar abilities would work on Yhwach this is just you placing you headcanon over the actual canon.

Given how clear your stance on the matter is, I'm sure you wouldn't mind providing feats for this? Feats for Yhwach nullifying illusions and being able to bypass their effects by looking into the future?

What Illusion other than KS has effected future sight?

This is also laughable seeing as how your entire argument here derives from the ridiculous notion that "sensory fortitude" against a harsh environment would counter KS. Can I get some feats of them countering abilities like KS?

Which is rendered moot by the fact that he then explicitly failed to, proving that advanced sensory illusions can counter the Almighty by manipulating what Yhwach sees as the future.

There you finally admitted Kyouka Suigetsu is an advanced illusion that can effect future sight. That's should be the end of the discussion.

It working on the "concept of senses" not only makes no sense, but isn't backed by anything other than your own interpretation, which at this point is basically head-canon in order to elevate Bleach to a higher level than it actually is.

No what makes no sense is your "sensory fortitude" argument.

The Almighty has overcame conceptual hax that have left Yhwach Powerless. Kyouka Suigetsu working on it despite that and affecting his future sight senses which goes beyond working on his regular senses in the present means it works on the concept of senses.

Literally everything you said here has been adressed, and as for Ban and Meliodas never saying their senses were effected, it's not relevant. Lack of a statement regarding effect =/= proof of lack of an effect, as anyone who has mastered the concept of basic logic could probably tell you. Aizen being > NNT in intellect is also something you've been repeating for a while now, and while arguably true, is totally irrelevant to the point, as is per the usual with your arguments.

You've addressed it but you've never countered it, you've only inputted more of your headcanon. Lacking a statement and an actual showing of the effect does in fact = lack of an effect. Aizen's Intellect being above NNT isn't arguable any objective person would agree and it has everything to do with the subject at hand because you can't use him overcoming Sakenade as an excuse to downplay the ability.

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HitTheAssasin

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@leothegreatest:

You do realize that that circles back to a power v power anyways right? Which is backed up by Yhwach asking Aizen if he dispelled Kyouka Suigetsu do to overconfidence that they defeated him or because he lacked the power to continue resisting him.

Alright, so now you're switching to another scan to prove your point. Very well, I'll deal with it accordingly. Yhwach asking a question....isn't confirmation of anything, but merely baseless speculation on his end as to why Kyoka Suigetsu's effects were no longer active. Yhwach has, on multiple different occasions, shown his lack of knowledge on how the ability functions(thinking breaking the blade would stop it, thinking his Almighty could bypass it etc) and this time he's not even making a statement but literally asking a question, which clearly shows that he does in fact not know anything about why its effects ceased. Only you could use this as actual evidence for anything.

Also, if this were evidence for anything, it'd be that Aizen requires a certain amount of residue power to keep Kyoka Suigetsu active and create all sorts of different effects(though this would be contradicted by lots of other stuff once again showing that Yhwach doesn't know what he's talking about), not that he can increase the power behind the illusions at will, which is the actual argument you're trying to make here, as I seem to have to continuously remind you of.

You failed at making a point here there's no reason why other similar abilities would work on Yhwach this is just you placing you headcanon over the actual canon.

I literally explained to you why any basic illusion that manipulates all 5 senses would work on Yhwach's Almighty, and you were unable to refute it and resorted to mouthing about how I have no argument, as well as repeating multiple already debunked points. I'd say that constitutes as 'making a point' on my end.

What Illusion other than KS has effected future sight?

None, but literally any that effects all 5 senses could deal with *Yhwach's* future sight.

This is also laughable seeing as how your entire argument here derives from the ridiculous notion that "sensory fortitude" against a harsh environment would counter KS. Can I get some feats of them countering abilities like KS?

You seem to be under some kind of misconception here. I already provided the logical proof for why it would afford them resistance, You know, the other method aside from explicit feats. Meanwhile, I already explained to you why it's logically sound for any sensory illusion to effect Yhwach's Almighty similarly to how Kyoka Suigetsu did, at which point your only response was suggesting Yhwach could do something completely illogical and explicitly contradicted, hence me asking for feats, which would then be the only option to prove such a claim.

There you finally admitted Kyouka Suigetsu is an advanced illusion that can effect future sight. That's should be the end of the discussion.

Unfortunately it doesn't, since any advanced sensory illusion could do the same. Now, will you actually start dressing my points sometime, or just keep addressing new parts in an attempt to seem logical whenever I corner you on the last point? Because if so, this'll be my last response. Dealing with your sidestepping and pretentious arguments isn't something I find myself having interest in continuing much further.

No what makes no sense is your "sensory fortitude" argument.

The Almighty has overcame conceptual hax that have left Yhwach Powerless. Kyouka Suigetsu working on it despite that and affecting his future sight senses which goes beyond working on his regular senses in the present means it works on the concept of senses.

Or...and now, correct me if this is illogical, maybe conceptual hax and illusions are two completely different things and countering one doesn't equate to being able to resist the other? I mean, this sure does seem less logical than KS affecting the "concept of senses". /s

Also, don't try to portray Yhwach's Almighty as a separate sense, when he does in fact use his eyes to see the future. Kyoka Suigetsu didn't have to affect anything additional in order to hinder Yhwach's future sight, just affecting his basic sense of sight is more than enough to create the effect it caused against Yhwach.

You've addressed it but you've never countered it, you've only inputted more of your headcanon.

Head canon which you, thus far, haven't been able to refute, but only insult.

Lacking a statement and an actual showing of the effect does in fact = lack of an effect.

Hmm, I see. So this is where we through basic logic out of the window completely, is it? Don't mind me, this is the stop where I'll be getting out. I have no interest in continuing a discussion with someone who cannot grasp that "having had centuries to adapt to its effects =/= an initial lack of effects that was confirmed by a different showing and a different statement."

Aizen's Intellect being above NNT isn't arguable any objective person would agree and it has everything to do with the subject at hand because you can't use him overcoming Sakenade as an excuse to downplay the ability.

All this proves to me is that you haven't actually read my argument, because I'm not using it as proof against anything(apart from the fact that Shinji stated its impossible, which this does directly contradict), but merely saying it isn't proof for anything either, especially since Aizen being > NNT in intellect is actually still completely irrelevant to the question of how hard it is to adapt to Sakanade, because said person who's intellect is > NNT easily accomplished said overcoming. Basically, just because a character who's smarter than NNT performed a feat easily, doesn't mean no one in NNT could replicate the feat with more difficulty. Basically, try harder.

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JuzaCloud

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Madara can't drag anyone across the planet

Madara throwing island+ meteors, country level deep forest emergence, and Limbo flicking away the biju like flies, the staggering advantage PS has; all substantiates Madara handing them their asses on a different part of the planet if he so wanted.

Ban's Sacred Treasure defeated millions of city+ Baby Indras in seconds. His Assault Hunt can attack opponents regardless of where they are.

Laughable when looking at the full context of the feat.

His Assault Hunt seems to have better speed feats than anything in Naruto.

Madaras wood dragon has legitimate quad to five digit mach feats. You have nothing to suggest this.

Madara is in a world of pain if he tries to take on Ban.

Madara probably looks his direction and turns him inside out with TK, Genjutsu's, oneshots with Susanoo, Drains, seals, and/or otherwise use him as a sacrifice for Edo Tensei so he can summon Hash to help him clean up.

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LeoTheGreatest

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@hittheassasin:

Alright, so now you're switching to another scan to prove your point. Very well, I'll deal with it accordingly. Yhwach asking a question....isn't confirmation of anything, but merely baseless speculation on his end as to why Kyoka Suigetsu's effects were no longer active. Yhwach has, on multiple different occasions, shown his lack of knowledge on how the ability functions(thinking breaking the blade would stop it, thinking his Almighty could bypass it etc) and this time he's not even making a statement but literally asking a question, which clearly shows that he does in fact not know anything about why its effects ceased. Only you could use this as actual evidence for anything.

Switching to another scan? No, i'm using the multiple pieces of evidence at my disposal. Do you even know what evidence is at this point?

You're now trying to discredit Yhwach instead of excepting his numerous points you don't have an actual counter argument.

Also, if this were evidence for anything, it'd be that Aizen requires a certain amount of residue power to keep Kyoka Suigetsu active and create all sorts of different effects(though this would be contradicted by lots of other stuff once again showing that Yhwach doesn't know what he's talking about), not that he can increase the power behind the illusions at will, which is the actual argument you're trying to make here, as I seem to have to continuously remind you of.

I've already proven he can affect the power he puts into Kyouka Suigetsu, you can contineu to try to discredit Yhwach but i'm sure everyone will rather accept the deductions of a character who's intellect is also above NNT rather than your biased headcanon.

Head canon which you, thus far, haven't been able to refute, but only insult.

The only thing i'm taking from this is that you admit you "argument" is simply headcanon.

Hmm, I see. So this is where we through basic logic out of the window completely, is it? Don't mind me, this is the stop where I'll be getting out. I have no interest in continuing a discussion with someone who cannot grasp that "having had centuries to adapt to its effects =/= an initial lack of effects that was confirmed by a different showing and a different statement."

You've thrown basic logic out the window long ago but the fact remains that Ban never had to overcome any affect on his senses only the physical abuse of purgatory

I literally explained to you why any basic illusion that manipulates all 5 senses would work on Yhwach's Almighty, and you were unable to refute it and resorted to mouthing about how I have no argument, as well as repeating multiple already debunked points. I'd say that constitutes as 'making a point' on my end.

None, but literally any that effects all 5 senses could deal with *Yhwach's* future sight.

You seem to be under some kind of misconception here. I already provided the logical proof for why it would afford them resistance, You know, the other method aside from explicit feats. Meanwhile, I already explained to you why it's logically sound for any sensory illusion to effect Yhwach's Almighty similarly to how Kyoka Suigetsu did, at which point your only response was suggesting Yhwach could do something completely illogical and explicitly contradicted, hence me asking for feats, which would then be the only option to prove such a claim.

Unfortunately it doesn't, since any advanced sensory illusion could do the same. Now, will you actually start dressing my points sometime, or just keep addressing new parts in an attempt to seem logical whenever I corner you on the last point? Because if so, this'll be my last response. Dealing with your sidestepping and pretentious arguments isn't something I find myself having interest in continuing much further.

In what world do you expect anyone to believe this imbecilic heap of fanfiction? Since when do all illsuionary abilities inherently work on Future Sight? Since when do all illsuionary abilities just have the power to control an entire separate ability?

Or...and now, correct me if this is illogical, maybe conceptual hax and illusions are two completely different things and countering one doesn't equate to being able to resist the other? I mean, this sure does seem less logical than KS affecting the "concept of senses". /s

You're trying to give me a lesson on logic when you just got done giving every illusionary ability in fiction the ability to work on Future Sight?

Also, don't try to portray Yhwach's Almighty as a separate sense, when he does in fact use his eyes to see the future. Kyoka Suigetsu didn't have to affect anything additional in order to hinder Yhwach's future sight, just affecting his basic sense of sight is more than enough to create the effect it caused against Yhwach.

Wait now you mean to tell me you couldn't even wait till I tore apart that previous nonsensical "argument" to come up with a new one?

Now affecting Yhwach's future sight doesn't even matter all you need to do is affect his basic sense of sight.. so forget his other senses and forget his Future Sight?

What's next you going to tell me that all you have to do is simply tell Yhwach that "the future is a mystery" and that'll be enough to fool overcome The Almighty?

This "argument" is a joke.

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LeoTheGreatest

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#229  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

And here is where you'll concede in way of insult even though you're the one that can't back up any of his outlandish claims.

Hopefully in the future we can have an actual non condescending debate, but for that you'll need an actual argument.

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HitTheAssasin

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@leothegreatest: Nah, this is where I'll stop responding. Your so called counter lacks the actual countering, which makes it not worth my time. The only way we'll ever have a non-condescending debate is if you learn the basic principles of logic as well as maybe how to read, because that way we might get anywhere. Until then, good luck to you. Oh, and have a good day.

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TheCrystalBall

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#231  Edited By TheCrystalBall

@braindrain said:

Madara throwing island+ meteors, country level deep forest emergence, and Limbo flicking away the biju like flies, the staggering advantage PS has; all substantiates Madara handing them their asses on a different part of the planet if he so wanted.

He has no feats of being able to do anything like that.

Madaras wood dragon has legitimate quad to five digit mach feats. You have nothing to suggest this.

Madara's wood dragon is mach 50 at most. There are no quantifiable speed feats for any characters it tagged.

Madara probably looks his direction and turns him inside out with TK, Genjutsu's, oneshots with Susanoo, Drains, seals, and/or otherwise use him as a sacrifice for Edo Tensei so he can summon Hash to help him clean up.

Ban is immune to the extremely weak "TK" he has and completely immune to Genjutsu (Purgatory feat), Ban's drains are infinitely superior to Madara's 200 chapters ago, Madara has zero notable seals and Ban can destroy all CT's he does with one hand, and Edo only gets beat up until it's gone because Ban can fight for decades while Edo's sweat from fighting for... not long.

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BrainDrain

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^Hard to win a debate when guys like that are arguing for your side

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Mike_Strike10

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@earendill:Aizen would one shot both of them lol. He scales above a planetary character in Yama. Last I checked Seven Deadly Sins does not come close to that. He out stats all of them no KS needed.

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Even if you say he doesn't out stat them ^

Here he destroys something that is beyond reason
Here he destroys something that is beyond reason

Here he flexes his powers to against some of the kido users in Soul society.
Here he flexes his powers to against some of the kido users in Soul society.