Ahsoka vs Dooku (Canon Primes)

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Poll Ahsoka vs Dooku (Canon Primes) (25 votes)

Ahsoka 20%
Dooku 80%
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nassergrant19

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Dooku wrecks and always will

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Greysentinel365

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Dooku stomps.

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RedSithDisciple

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si198ghi

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I can see this being a close fight

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MaulSmacker

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#6 MaulSmacker  Online
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Ieatnettles

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Ahsoka good fight

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CatMan6

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dude DCEU Batman is enough for Ahsoka let alone Dooku

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#11  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

i mean anyone saying dooku can stomp is very clearly showing their bias😂

no matter who you think wins this, going by all canon evidence and logic, is it at the very least a close match. with that being said, nothing dooku has done is as impressive as ahsoka’s fight with vader on malachor. nothing. he actually scales below her considering how anakin handled him, and IH anakin is not on par with rebels vader from a combative sense whatsoever. ahsoka isn’t vader’s equal. she is below him in the hierarchy of characters in the verse, but it’s not a stomp gap. vader has been stated numerous times to have had a significant amount of difficulty fighting her despite being familiar with her style (which was noted as a glaring advantage by filoni himself).

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A_FINE_EDITION

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Close battle, but I think I might lean Dooku.

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Ieatnettles

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i mean anyone saying dooku can stomp is very clearly showing their bias😂

Agreed

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#14  Edited By frozen  Moderator
@catman6 said:

dude DCEU Batman is enough for Ahsoka let alone Dooku

That is silly. Ahsoka stomps DCEU Batman, and would beat the likes of DCEU WW.

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Greysentinel365

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#15  Edited By Greysentinel365

Dooku. Can be argued to do it with effort but not with difficulty

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alextheboss

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Dooku wins high diff, similar to how he did against Anakin in their fights laterin the clone wars.

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#17 frozen  Moderator

Dooku should win, good fight though.

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Ahsoka Tano is an exceedingly formidable fighter, experienced and skilled, but I would not expect her to endure a bout with a swordmaster such as Count Dooku. Besides the truly preeminent of the Jedi and Sith -- Yoda, Mace Windu, or Darth Sidious -- the sinister and senior Sith Lord could only have been undone by Anakin Skywalker, strength-to-strength; had either Pong Krell, Asajj Ventress, or Quinlan Vos genuinely exhibited the power necessary to usurp Darth Tyranus, Lord Sidious would have pitted them against his elder apprentice in a contest of supremacy -- ultimately, only Skywalker proved strong enough to seize the title of Dark Lord from the Count. If another such as Tano could manage this, it undermines the significance of Skywalker's triumph, and the gravity of Count Dooku's menace.

Of course, Ahsoka Tano did learn from Anakin Skywalker, who served as her mentor during the Clone Wars. And when they fought many years later -- Tano having matured into an adult agent of the rising Rebellion, and Skywalker having peaked as Darth Vader -- she held her own in impressive fashion, and despite a number of disadvantageous circumstances having been in play against her in that particular situation. In this respect -- Lord Vader having proven a stronger Sith Lord than Lord Tyranus -- Agent Tano has demonstrated a level of fighting prowess relatively similar to that of Count Dooku. She may not be quite on par with the older duelist, but she is comparable.

Unfortunately, when it comes to lightsaber combat, Count Dooku is a master of the old style -- his elegant and artful approach to dueling is quite domineering, outmaneuvering his opponents in more decisive fashion than other bladesbeings within his general range of ability could have managed. Ahsoka Tano's glaring vulnerability here would be the fact that she did not complete her Jedi training; this isn't to say that she's poorly trained -- Anakin Skywalker, and even his own instructor, Obi-Wan Kenobi, taught Tano well for the duration of time she was under their supervision, and before that she received her foundational training under the Coruscant Jedi Temple's Masters. Padawan Tano was a gifted learner with advanced abilities, and the training she underwent was, all-in-all, sufficient to produce an elite fighter, with an established dueling record against foes such as Pre Vizsla, General Grievous, Darth Maul, and Lord Vader. Nevertheless, in comparison to the extensive education of a proper Jedi Knight, Tano's brief apprenticeship to Skywalker, muddied by times of war, was but a crash course -- her skillset is potent, but comparatively shallow. Her talents serve her well in ferocious, heated combat against fierce warriors like Vizsla of the Mandalorian Death Watch, Lord Maul, and Darth Vader, but in a cool and calculated fencing match, a measured martial arts competition, an opponent like Count Dooku would be a nightmare. With his background, he is best positioned to pick Tano apart, to exploit every flaw in her own profile. What advantage does Tano have? Against Darth Vader, you could say that she was more nimble -- quicker, and more agile, allowing for a legitimate clash of contrasting skillsets, a give and take exchange, instead of a futile strength-against-strength struggle. No such situation here, except perhaps the greater stamina of youth. The Count completed his training as a Jedi Knight -- under Grand Master Yoda, no less -- and even rose to the rank of Master; he is considerably better trained. The Count has several decades over Tano -- he is significantly more experienced. Tano is marked for her acrobatic fighting style, but the Count is just as agile, if not more-so. Moreover, Count Dooku is bigger and stronger than she -- and not at all in the brutish, overbearing manner of Lord Vader or General Grievous, with which she is familiar. With the Count's lengthy list of battles against Master Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, the greatest warriors of the Nightsister Clan, and so forth, he is the more adroit and accomplished duelist, with a greater knowledge of the Force, and an all but supreme command over the dark side's power.

And so, while in several primary categories, Ahsoka Tano is technically comparable, stylistically speaking she is not cut out for this fight -- Count Dooku is one of the worst opponents she could come up against. Again, Anakin Skywalker drilled her well in the Jedi arts, and strove to prepare her for the various enemies she might have encountered during the Clone Wars -- from Asajj Ventress to Lord Tyranus -- but she won't make it here. This match would play out akin to Obi-Wan Kenobi's duel with the Count on Geonosis, I expect, but perhaps a little more decisive. The elder Dark Lord's tendency to tire could prove interesting, but then, in Revenge of the Sith, it was when he was already worn out that both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Skywalker were dispatched. Now, if Darth Tyranus were poisoned in this fight -- not significantly impeded, but just enough, as he was when the Nightsisters attempted to assassinate him on Serenno -- Tano could better contend, for his skillset would be simplified, focused on a more narrow level. Still superior, but not so dominant as he could be.

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Dooku doesn't stomp at all of course but he still wins the clear majority.

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VoidUnbound

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Ahsoka Tano is an exceedingly formidable fighter, experienced and skilled, but I would not expect her to endure a bout with a swordmaster such as Count Dooku. Besides the truly preeminent of the Jedi and Sith -- Yoda, Mace Windu, or Darth Sidious -- the sinister and senior Sith Lord could only have been undone by Anakin Skywalker, strength-to-strength; had either Pong Krell, Asajj Ventress, or Quinlan Vos genuinely exhibited the power necessary to usurp Darth Tyranus, Lord Sidious would have pitted them against his elder apprentice in a contest of supremacy -- ultimately, only Skywalker proved strong enough to seize the title of Dark Lord from the Count. If another such as Tano could manage this, it undermines the significance of Skywalker's triumph, and the gravity of Count Dooku's menace.

Of course, Ahsoka Tano did learn from Anakin Skywalker, who served as her mentor during the Clone Wars. And when they fought many years later -- Tano having matured into an adult agent of the rising Rebellion, and Skywalker having peaked as Darth Vader -- she held her own in impressive fashion, and despite a number of disadvantageous circumstances having been in play against her in that particular situation. In this respect -- Lord Vader having proven a stronger Sith Lord than Lord Tyranus -- Agent Tano has demonstrated a level of fighting prowess relatively similar to that of Count Dooku. She may not be quite on par with the older duelist, but she is comparable.

Unfortunately, when it comes to lightsaber combat, Count Dooku is a master of the old style -- his elegant and artful approach to dueling is quite domineering, outmaneuvering his opponents in more decisive fashion than other bladesbeings within his general range of ability could have managed. Ahsoka Tano's glaring vulnerability here would be the fact that she did not complete her Jedi training; this isn't to say that she's poorly trained -- Anakin Skywalker, and even his own instructor, Obi-Wan Kenobi, taught Tano well for the duration of time she was under their supervision, and before that she received her foundational training under the Coruscant Jedi Temple's Masters. Padawan Tano was a gifted learner with advanced abilities, and the training she underwent was, all-in-all, sufficient to produce an elite fighter, with an established dueling record against foes such as Pre Vizsla, General Grievous, Darth Maul, and Lord Vader. Nevertheless, in comparison to the extensive education of a proper Jedi Knight, Tano's brief apprenticeship to Skywalker, muddied by times of war, was but a crash course -- her skillset is potent, but comparatively shallow. Her talents serve her well in ferocious, heated combat against fierce warriors like Vizsla of the Mandalorian Death Watch, Lord Maul, and Darth Vader, but in a cool and calculated fencing match, a measured martial arts competition, an opponent like Count Dooku would be a nightmare. With his background, he is best positioned to pick Tano apart, to exploit every flaw in her own profile. What advantage does Tano have? Against Darth Vader, you could say that she was more nimble -- quicker, and more agile, allowing for a legitimate clash of contrasting skillsets, a give and take exchange, instead of a futile strength-against-strength struggle. No such situation here, except perhaps the greater stamina of youth. The Count completed his training as a Jedi Knight -- under Grand Master Yoda, no less -- and even rose to the rank of Master; he is considerably better trained. The Count has several decades over Tano -- he is significantly more experienced. Tano is marked for her acrobatic fighting style, but the Count is just as agile, if not more-so. Moreover, Count Dooku is bigger and stronger than she -- and not at all in the brutish, overbearing manner of Lord Vader or General Grievous, with which she is familiar. With the Count's lengthy list of battles against Master Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, the greatest warriors of the Nightsister Clan, and so forth, he is the more adroit and accomplished duelist, with a greater knowledge of the Force, and an all but supreme command over the dark side's power.

And so, while in several primary categories, Ahsoka Tano is technically comparable, stylistically speaking she is not cut out for this fight -- Count Dooku is one of the worst opponents she could come up against. Again, Anakin Skywalker drilled her well in the Jedi arts, and strove to prepare her for the various enemies she might have encountered during the Clone Wars -- from Asajj Ventress to Lord Tyranus -- but she won't make it here. This match would play out akin to Obi-Wan Kenobi's duel with the Count on Geonosis, I expect, but perhaps a little more decisive. The elder Dark Lord's tendency to tire could prove interesting, but then, in Revenge of the Sith, it was when he was already worn out that both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Skywalker were dispatched. Now, if Darth Tyranus were poisoned in this fight -- not significantly impeded, but just enough, as he was when the Nightsisters attempted to assassinate him on Serenno -- Tano could better contend, for his skillset would be simplified, focused on a more narrow level. Still superior, but not so dominant as he could be.

Feels like something that came out of ChatGPT lowkey.

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it would be a nice fight to watch
but dooku wins every time .

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@lord_tenebrous said:

Ahsoka Tano is an exceedingly formidable fighter, experienced and skilled, but I would not expect her to endure a bout with a swordmaster such as Count Dooku. Besides the truly preeminent of the Jedi and Sith -- Yoda, Mace Windu, or Darth Sidious -- the sinister and senior Sith Lord could only have been undone by Anakin Skywalker, strength-to-strength; had either Pong Krell, Asajj Ventress, or Quinlan Vos genuinely exhibited the power necessary to usurp Darth Tyranus, Lord Sidious would have pitted them against his elder apprentice in a contest of supremacy -- ultimately, only Skywalker proved strong enough to seize the title of Dark Lord from the Count. If another such as Tano could manage this, it undermines the significance of Skywalker's triumph, and the gravity of Count Dooku's menace.

Of course, Ahsoka Tano did learn from Anakin Skywalker, who served as her mentor during the Clone Wars. And when they fought many years later -- Tano having matured into an adult agent of the rising Rebellion, and Skywalker having peaked as Darth Vader -- she held her own in impressive fashion, and despite a number of disadvantageous circumstances having been in play against her in that particular situation. In this respect -- Lord Vader having proven a stronger Sith Lord than Lord Tyranus -- Agent Tano has demonstrated a level of fighting prowess relatively similar to that of Count Dooku. She may not be quite on par with the older duelist, but she is comparable.

Unfortunately, when it comes to lightsaber combat, Count Dooku is a master of the old style -- his elegant and artful approach to dueling is quite domineering, outmaneuvering his opponents in more decisive fashion than other bladesbeings within his general range of ability could have managed. Ahsoka Tano's glaring vulnerability here would be the fact that she did not complete her Jedi training; this isn't to say that she's poorly trained -- Anakin Skywalker, and even his own instructor, Obi-Wan Kenobi, taught Tano well for the duration of time she was under their supervision, and before that she received her foundational training under the Coruscant Jedi Temple's Masters. Padawan Tano was a gifted learner with advanced abilities, and the training she underwent was, all-in-all, sufficient to produce an elite fighter, with an established dueling record against foes such as Pre Vizsla, General Grievous, Darth Maul, and Lord Vader. Nevertheless, in comparison to the extensive education of a proper Jedi Knight, Tano's brief apprenticeship to Skywalker, muddied by times of war, was but a crash course -- her skillset is potent, but comparatively shallow. Her talents serve her well in ferocious, heated combat against fierce warriors like Vizsla of the Mandalorian Death Watch, Lord Maul, and Darth Vader, but in a cool and calculated fencing match, a measured martial arts competition, an opponent like Count Dooku would be a nightmare. With his background, he is best positioned to pick Tano apart, to exploit every flaw in her own profile. What advantage does Tano have? Against Darth Vader, you could say that she was more nimble -- quicker, and more agile, allowing for a legitimate clash of contrasting skillsets, a give and take exchange, instead of a futile strength-against-strength struggle. No such situation here, except perhaps the greater stamina of youth. The Count completed his training as a Jedi Knight -- under Grand Master Yoda, no less -- and even rose to the rank of Master; he is considerably better trained. The Count has several decades over Tano -- he is significantly more experienced. Tano is marked for her acrobatic fighting style, but the Count is just as agile, if not more-so. Moreover, Count Dooku is bigger and stronger than she -- and not at all in the brutish, overbearing manner of Lord Vader or General Grievous, with which she is familiar. With the Count's lengthy list of battles against Master Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, the greatest warriors of the Nightsister Clan, and so forth, he is the more adroit and accomplished duelist, with a greater knowledge of the Force, and an all but supreme command over the dark side's power.

And so, while in several primary categories, Ahsoka Tano is technically comparable, stylistically speaking she is not cut out for this fight -- Count Dooku is one of the worst opponents she could come up against. Again, Anakin Skywalker drilled her well in the Jedi arts, and strove to prepare her for the various enemies she might have encountered during the Clone Wars -- from Asajj Ventress to Lord Tyranus -- but she won't make it here. This match would play out akin to Obi-Wan Kenobi's duel with the Count on Geonosis, I expect, but perhaps a little more decisive. The elder Dark Lord's tendency to tire could prove interesting, but then, in Revenge of the Sith, it was when he was already worn out that both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Skywalker were dispatched. Now, if Darth Tyranus were poisoned in this fight -- not significantly impeded, but just enough, as he was when the Nightsisters attempted to assassinate him on Serenno -- Tano could better contend, for his skillset would be simplified, focused on a more narrow level. Still superior, but not so dominant as he could be.

Feels like something that came out of ChatGPT lowkey.

Fr

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Still Dooku.

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#25  Edited By dark_globe
@frozen said:

Dooku should win, good fight though.

riddle me this .

how can you say ahsoka grew massively in between TCW/RoTS (19BBY) and rebels
and use it as an excuse to justify vaders rather poor showing vs her
(saying "she is no longer a mid tier and grew vastly")
if you still have post rebels ahsoka sub dooku at the same time ?!

this doesn´t fit your "rebels vader is stronger than KFV" narrative
(since sub dooku ahsoka can fight this vader just fine and
dooku got straight up overpowered by DS anakin who is sub KFV in 12 seconds
while "more powerful" vader can´t replicate this vs sub dooku character)

i mean TCW ahsoka was already matching maul
so "massive growth" (you like to use that quote) would imply that she is above dooku now right ?!
yes or no ?! so how is she loosing here ?!
also if she is not above dooku how come she can fight titan+ vader for almost 2 minutes
(because this either means she is dooku+ or that OWK / rebels vader is not so powerful after all)

you see why i have problems with your "massive growth" , "orders of magnitude" growth ,
"stomp gaps above" statements
becuase they are simply ridiculous and unquantifiable .

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#26 frozen  Moderator

@dark_globe:

how can you say ahsoka grew massively in between TCW/RoTS (19BBY) and rebels

Because it’s stated, DarkGlobe. But I don’t expect you to care for that, as you don’t care for canon sources.

No Caption Provided

if you still have post rebels ahsoka sub dooku at the same time

No. She used her agility to get away from him and was on the back foot. Once she stopped dancing, she barely lasted long. KFV and suit Vader don’t fight in the same way, and Dooku wouldn’t be able to back away and dance around Vader the way Ahsoka did.

this doesn´t fit your "rebels vader is stronger than KFV" narrative

Yet again Globe, it’s not a “narrative”. It’s stated many times and shown through direct scaling. As the non hindered MFV couldn’t overpower Obi Wan, whereas OWK Vader did.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

You claiming “PIS” will never change the above.

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#27  Edited By thenamelessone

@dark_globe:

I don't think you're being fair here, yes Darth Vader had a long match with Ahsoka, but the second match is barely relevant, the first match only lasted around 50 seconds where Vader was pretty casual and it ended with Vader knocking Ahsoka out with a force push, a win for him.

Loading Video...

comparetively, on Geonosis, A casual Tyranus and Anakin have a 40 second longer contest, combine it with Obi-Wan Kenobi and that's another 40 seconds.

Loading Video...

but obviously, Darth Tyranus absolutely stomps this version of Anakin, a prolonged lightsaber fight is not an indicative of relativity, fights have to be written with length for the sake of their quality and the viewers in mind, same concept applied to Ahsoka vs Vader as to this fight.

you can't expect them to write their defacto best good guy to be stomped by the bad guy in the series in 30 seconds, that just limits storytelling.

Ahsoka thus consistently gave space, went backwards, abused his lack of mobility and even when fighting in such a manner she still got knocked out in just a 50 second match, that is not relativity, that is just "not dying instantly" and throughout fiction there are countless examples of this trope coming into hand

During the writing of Rebels, OWK wasn't a such either but ever since the series released, Vader is well beyond Titans, this guy is agreed to be the strongest titan by most or atleast up there with Senate Emperor.

No Caption Provided

and a monologuing casual Vader is portrayed as stronger than MFV entirely, MFV fails to overpower MFK in a force context, equalling him instead.

https://streamable.com/s1yikg

While a Vader casually talking and taunting completely overpowers Kenobi entirely in the force, when Anakin failed to with full focus.

https://streamable.com/b88o11

OWK Vader is definitely above ROTS characters in power.

OT - Ahsoka lasts a few minutes in a decent match but it is a foregone conclusion, Tyranus wins everytime.

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#28  Edited By dark_globe
@frozen said:

@dark_globe:


KFV and suit Vader don’t fight in the same way

funny because in other thread (IIRC) you say they fight the same

(both rely on their strenght and want to overpower their opponents)

you didn´t even address the rest
because it is uncomfortable for your
"stomp gaps above"
"massive growth"
"orders of magnitudes above"
statements

so once again
how can sub dooku character fight titan level+ vader for almost 2 minutes ?
because by your own logic and your scaling
KF+ vader should be able to outright stomp someone like ahsoka .

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@frozen said:

@dark_globe:


KFV and suit Vader don’t fight in the same way
funny because in other thread (IIRC) you say they fight the same
(both rely on their strenght and want to overpower their opponents)

you didn´t even address the rest
because it is uncomfortable for your
"stomp gaps above"
"massive growth"
"orders of magnitudes above"
statements

so once again
how can sub dooku character fight titan level+ vader for almost 2 minutes ?
because by your own logic and your scaling
KF+ vader should be able to outright stomp someone like ahsoka .

Why did u only address one thing?

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#30 frozen  Moderator

@dark_globe:

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I don’t even have OWK Vader stomping KFV. I think he wins in a good fight, but ultimately the force superiority is noticeable. The only time I refer to orders of magnitude is for force wave Vader, who scales to ROTJ Sidious.

I didn’t address the rest of it because it’s nonsense. If that’s the route you’re taking, I can cite you a few threads which you’ve completely stopped responding to me.

KFV and suit do not fight the same. I think KFV would beat Ahsoak quicker than suit. That doesn’t mean I think KFV beats suit. You are too reliant on ABC logic.

My point stands. The non hindered MFV couldn’t overpower Obi Wan. OWK Vader could. The fight is not PIS. KFV is hard locked. It’s up to you whether you want to accept it or not. I’m not going to repeat myself all the time.

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@dark_globe said:
@frozen said:

@dark_globe:


KFV and suit Vader don’t fight in the same way
funny because in other thread (IIRC) you say they fight the same
(both rely on their strenght and want to overpower their opponents)

you didn´t even address the rest
because it is uncomfortable for your
"stomp gaps above"
"massive growth"
"orders of magnitudes above"
statements

so once again
how can sub dooku character fight titan level+ vader for almost 2 minutes ?
because by your own logic and your scaling
KF+ vader should be able to outright stomp someone like ahsoka .

Why did u only address one thing?

because i focus on this and it is all i need


my goal is to prove frozens statements like :

"stomp gaps above"

"massive growth"

"orders of magnitudes above"

are GREATLY EXAGGERATED and blown out of proportion and
are basically unquantifiable in relation to PT and OT characters .


because if "massive growth" means ahsoka is still < dooku
while already being = maul pre "massive growth"
it means these statements are to be treated as unreliable .

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#32  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@dark_globe:

You are strawmanning, as usual. Never said ANH Vader or OWK is stomp gaps.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/rotj-sidious-is-stomp-gaps-above-rots-sidious-2332014/

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@frozen said:
@catman6 said:

dude DCEU Batman is enough for Ahsoka let alone Dooku

That is silly. Ahsoka stomps DCEU Batman, and would beat the likes of DCEU WW.

nah bro it should've been obvious I was joking lol

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#35  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@frozen: “using agility” is a part of her fighting style and that’s like saying vader “abused physical strength” which he did, yet nobody says that because it’s his fighting style to wear down opponents. ahsoka only didn’t last long after vader visibly made her tired and strained due to his overpowering physicals. she matched him just fine in skill.

dooku was being handled by an opponent significantly inferior to rebels vader (ih anakin). there is absolutely no line of thinking that would allow him to replicate her feat against vader considering he last less time against a lesser opponent.

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Ahsoka stomps this old bag, hope he doesn't get dementia trying to keep up, hes clearly worn out

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@emmafrostxmen: Uh, Vader and pre Vader Anakin have completely different fighting styles. Vader is in fact, slow compared to his human version. So scaling doesn't really apply here that way.

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Ahsoka stomps this old bag, hope he doesn't get dementia trying to keep up, hes clearly worn out

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@agmine570: that isn’t right. all speed and strength comes from the force. rebels vader far outclasses anakin (especially ih anakin) and therefore is above him as an overall duelist. ahsoka scales above dooku by extension.

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#41  Edited By dark_globe
@frozen said:

@dark_globe:

Never said ANH Vader or OWK is stomp gaps.

yet you use term "massive growth" for ahsoka

which is nonsense if you think she is still locked below dooku at the same time .
therefore your other similar statements as "orders of magnitudes" , "stomp gaps" ,
"massive growth" , hand waving someone etc .
used with RoTJ luke or vader are equaly as unreliable and
missguided as this ahsoka "massive growth" statement .

so once again
is OWK / rebels vader sub titan or = titan or what is he ?!
because he can´t very well be > KFV if he is sub titan or = titan .

or once again
is ahsoka so good she is titan level to be able to give titan+ level vader a decent fight ?

because than logically she must also be > dooku right ... ?!
yet for some reason she is not in your book .

chose your angle already because this doesn´t work both ways .
you either need to upscale ahsoka to ridiculous level nobody would buy (and you know it)
or downscale OWK/rebels vader (which you don´t like very much)

otherwise your scaling doesn´t really work and you create paradoxes .

if you want to keep your scaling consistent and align it with your statements
(namely OWK / rebels vader being above KFV vader)
than your scaling should look like this by logic:
dooku < DS anakin =< ahsoka =< KFV = RoTS sidious and yoda =< OWK/rebels vader
yet for some reason you are jobbing
you don´t seem to like scaling paradoxes you yourself implied and created .

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#42 frozen  Moderator

@dark_globe:

is OWK / rebels vader sub titan or = titan or what is he ?!

because he can´t very well be > KFV if he is sub titan or = titan .

You can use your eyes Globe. KFV can’t overpower Kenobi, whereas OWK Vader can. This is on screen

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Consistent with him being stated more powerful than KFV.

is ahsoka so good she is titan level to be able to content with titan+ level vader ? because than logically she must also be > dooku right ... ?! yet for some reason she is not in your book .

chose your angle already because this doesn´t work both ways .

if you want to keep your scaling consistent and align it with your statements

(namely OWK vader being above KFV vader)

than your scaling should look like this by logic:

dooku < DS anakin =< ahsoka =< KFV = RoTS sidious and yoda =< OWK/rebels vader

Nope. You are making the mistake of assuming she scales to Vader. Ahsoka was using her agility to back away from Vader and was constantly on the defensive. Vader has issues with agility, so all she did was prolong the encounter. Once she stopped dancing around, she was beaten in 25-30 seconds. She was also being knocked left to right by the force of his blows. So yes, Vader low diffed her.

yet for some reason you are jobbing

I’ve thoroughly debunked you every time we’ve debated. You have repeatedly been incapable of forming good arguments. The fact that you think the Mustafar fight is “PIS” says it all really. To be honest, I don’t actually have to debunk you. You discredit yourself.

you don´t seem to like scaling paradoxes you yourself implied and created .

Same goes for yourself. You keep crying about Vader fighting “nobodies” then get confused when you realise that Dooku has also been pressured by them.

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#43  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@dark_globe:

Also I see you are editing your comments… yet also criticising me for not responding to everything.

therefore your other similar statements as "orders of magnitudes" , "stomp gaps" ,

"massive growth" , hand waving someone etc .used with RoTJ luke or vader are equaly as unreliable and

ROTJ Sidous and Vader being stomp gaps above the PT is affirmed through canon scaling. I’ll present my argument below. And you can choose to engage with it if you wish.

Why ROTJ Sidious is stomp gaps above ROTS Sidious

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This blog will be used to help explain and quantify the gap between ROTS Sidious and ROTJ. While the vast majority acknowledge the wide gulf, it seems there are those who are more skeptical of a big gap. I’ll take the time to explain that there is in fact a wide gulf between the two

For starters, let’s get into the statements. These are fairly basic..,

Growth statements

Circa 14bby, some 5 ish years after ROTS, and Sidious proclaims that he is now “stronger than ever”, while some may see this as boastful rhetoric from Sidious, this is not necessarily the case. Excerpt from Inquisitor: Rise of The Red Blade

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Sidious' growth is directly proportional to the growth of the Empire. This is only 5 years after ROTS so this passage is clearly meant to portray solid growth even in this short time gap.

SW Tarkin

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His power grows proportionally to the growing dark side imbalances. This would not only apply to OT Sidious but all versions including during Prequels.

Beware the Power of the Dark Side

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Constantly deepens his mastery of the Dark Side in the former Jedi Temple on Coruscant.

From A Certain Point of View: The Empire Strikes Back

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Spends much time in the former Jedi temple reading Forbidden knowledge in search of immortality.

Dawn of Rebellion Visual Guide

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With the Jedi gone, Sidious has unlimited access to all the artifacts, Jedi & Sith, at the temple.

Darth Vader(2017) #12

In their millennia of history the Jedi Order had laid claim to every Force site regardless of background(Jedi, Sith or other Force sects)

|| Darth Vader(2017) #7

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Blatantly confirmed his power grows proportionally to his statue and artifact collection .ie. a crap ton of growth post ROTS via access to gazillion more knowledge which constantly expands as the Empire does their own further exhibitions of Force sites for the Emperor.

SW Visual Guide(2017)

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Meditates regularly at the Sith Shrine to unlock the Fp of the Dark Side itself.

SW Tarkin

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His power transcends the physical universe. It is beyond all mortal understanding.

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Having established all this, it is very clear that Sidious has linear growth over the two decades between ROTS and ROTJ. As he deepens his knowledge and mastery of the dark side, his power increases alongside it

Quantifying this growth

It is easy and clear cut to quantify Sheev’s power growth. This can be done by simply looking at his standing in relation to Darth Vader. First and foremost, it is important to note that Knightfall/Mustafar Vader ~ ROTS Sidious. This has been previously established elsewhere. They are roughly in the same ballpark

Which brings us to Lords of The Sith, which takes place some 5 years after ROTS. By this point, Vader has surpassed his pre suit self in the force:

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When Sidious and Vader team up to fight Lyleks, they are very much depicted as a duo who fight “back to back” and “work in tandem”. They are depicted as being of a similar level. When two FUs are close, this is often the case in their portrayal. The relevant excerpts will be cited below:

Vader even slightly outspeed Sidious at one point, which only serves to reinforce the scaling:

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So we have Vader and Sidious operate on par with one another, with Vader even out speeding him at a certain point. Yet it’s later revealed that “his Master had so shown so little of his true power that day”. Framing it as Sidious wanting to appear weaker than he actually is

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So Sidious, while only using a fraction of his power, can augment to appearing on par with Vader and having similar speed. Which means that Sidious with his full power is far beyond Vader. This aligns with Sidious power beyond beyond Vader’s imagination

LOTS Sidious >>> LOTS Vader > KFV ~ ROTS Sidious

Fast forward to 10bby, which is the time the Obi Wan Kenobi series, and we have more scaling. As of 10bby, Sidious is still more powerful than Vader. With this in mind, it’s important to remind ourselves how powerful this Vader is.

He is affirmed as being more powerful than KFV by Deborah Chow:

”It is essentially between these two huge iconic characters, that are in many ways equally matched and we have never kinda seen them in their prime meeting up like this“

And again:

Deborah wanted to have really visceral sense, when he’s walking down the street kind of killing people, she’s like “We’ve never really seen this side of Vader. He’s in his prime. He’s super angry, he’s just full of rage.”

More interestingly, Hayden equates Mustafar Vader and OWK Vader as being more or less the same here. He says “as it was explained to me” (meaning it’s not just an actor statement, he is recounting what he has been told) prior to saying Mustafar Vader > Jedi Anakin. And then goes on to equate MFV with OWK Vader, seemingly making no real distinction. In fact, he says that Vader is “more powerful now”:

Interviewer: How does a Jedi’s fighting style change when he goes to the dark side? Are the fighting styles different?

Hayden: Yeah I think they are a little different. As it was explained to me, when he goes to the dark side, his fighting skills go up a little bit. And he becomes a little bit more powerful. There was a decent amount of training on this one. And I got to work with the stunt team and learning some of the lightsaber fights and that’s always just a lot of fun. But yeah I mean yeah some good fights in this one

Interviewer: What was like the most surprising thing to find out about Darth Vader’s lightsaber style?

Hayden: Well um there is a lot that we already know about it and um we‘re certainly trying to keep things... relatively consistent, but this is Vader at a different point in his life and he’s... you know... more powerful now... more driven now and uhm and I think that comes through in his fighting style too. He’s very aggressive.

But most importantly, OWK Vader > KFV in the force is just blatantly shown in the force clashes. KFV is hard pressed to overpower Obi Wan in their TK clash and has to try very hard (and fails to do so):

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Meanwhile OWK Vader is able to casually holds the pillar at bay while he stands there and mocks Obi Wan. This is juxtaposed to Obi Wan visibly and audibly straining hard whereas Vader tone is depicted as almost mocking and cruel, completely in control

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So far, OWK Sidious is already firm locked above a Vader who is clearly > KFV in the force. The chain so far would be OWK Sidious >> OWK Vader > LOTS Vader > KFV ~ ROTS Sidious (in the force)

However, the gap becomes wider when you consider the following:

A) As established, LOTS Sidious is >>>>> LOTS Vader

B) OWK Sidious is strongly suggested to be >> Obi Wan

As explained below, Obi Wan is power amped when he beats Vader

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/reconciling-and-explaining-the-post-pit-obi-wan-2325548/

Obi Wan is verbatim stated to have “overpowered” Vader. Yet Sidious is completely unbothered by his apprentice taking an L, which is notable considering Vader up until this point hasn’t lost to anyone (besides Sidious himself)

Compare how Sidious is at ease here:

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With how he treats the emergence of Luke Skywalker:

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Or how he regarded Vader’s trajectory pre injuries, before Obi Wan sliced him and forever psychologically scarred him (Vader’s limitations in canon are mainly mental)

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Essentially, Sidious is so far ahead of Vader that even someone who has grown powerful enough to mid diff Vader is of no concern to him. This is wholly consistent with Lords of The Sith, which frames the encounter as Sidious using but a mere fraction of his power to match Vader and operate on that level

By the time we get to ANH, matters are only re-affirmed. For starters, end of series Obi Wan is more powerful than ever, so he keeps the amp:

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The oneness letting go amp is what he does in ROTS, but can simply do it more easily after OWK.

Filoni’s take on Rebels Obi Wan is very much in contradiction to Gilroy’s take. Per Dave Filoni, Rebels Obi Wan is combatively superior than before:

“If you talk to a lot of people who have sword fights, they’ll tell you that people who are very good don’t have long fights. It’s very quick”

Essentially, Dave Filoni is talking in a vacuum here as he simply asserts that good swordsmen don’t have long fights. He then goes on to frame it as being because Obi Wan has grown as a fighter

Official sources also attribute the quickness of the victory as stemming from his meditation over the years

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Another producer on Rebels also affirms that Kenobi has linear growth from Rebels to ANH. Her quote is in direct context of his fighting style

“Even though on the timeline, we aren’t on A New Hope yet. To think about what we know of Obi Wan in that movie and move backwards in some way, to make sure that the character’s progression charts appropriately”

With Filoni affirming that when Kenobi protects the twins, “you can’t beat that”

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Meaning he gets amped, although it’s not hyper literal, it aligns with the amp seen in OWK.

Dave Filoni also affirms the superiority over Maul as being so vast that even having parry a few strikes would be too much:

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So Kenobi is now so vastly superior, that he can’t have him parry blows. Unlike their TCW fights. This is consistent with Kenobi one shotting Maul without any bait in the original deleted scene

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As I explained on my reconciling post pit Kenobi blog, this “twin amp” is not necessarily an amp from the twins themselves. But rather he’s using that motivation to enter a oneness state of sorts by letting go and letting the force take over. The motivation in Rebels is the exact same in Obi Wan Kenobi series. Verbatim stated by Insider that the memories of the twins give Kenobi the power to escape and overpower Vader

Landing on the rocky surface of a barren moon, Obi-Wan is waiting for Vader when he arrives in his shuttle, and a bitter lightsaber duel begins. Their powers equally matched, each gains the upper hand until Vader leaves Obi-Wan for dead after burying him under tons of rock. Fighting not to be crushed, Kenobi focuses on Luke and Leia, and the memories give him the strength to escape and overpower Vader

So the power state he is in in the Kenobi finale is the same as in Rebels. If we look at the recent From A Certain Point of View: Return of The Jedi novel, he unleashes “an avalanche of power” on Vader. The power is directly singled out as being the winning factor:

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Kenobi “empties his mind” and is “given strength” by the twins which allow him to “unleash an avalanche of power” on Vader which “overpowers” him. Which Filoni says “you can’t defeat that”.

It is also indicated he is fighting to protect Luke in ANH per Star Wars Made Easy:

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By comparison, Ahsoka Tano, is matched by Maul for 2 minutes. Same Ahsoka that is “vastly more skilled”than her TCW self per Lightsaber Collection

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And stated more powerful than TCW Ahsoka

With this in mind, it’s worth noting a new more sources
With this in mind, it’s worth noting a new more sources

The official A New Hope junior novelisation, which is a more qualitative source than guidebooks, states that his powers didn’t decline

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The Canon D+ audio description also blatantly frames the encounter as a highly competitive titanic clash:

”Their blades clash as Vader counters Obi Wan’s opening strike. They lock swords at the hilt. Obi WAN’s blue against Vader’s red. Obi Wan spins away and lashes out. Vader tries to force him into a corner. Obi Wan slips away and challenges Vader with the tip of his saber. His blue eyes piercing in focus, Obi Wan launches another attack. The robed Obi Wan stares fearlessly. His masked opponents lashes out, his sword aims for a mighty strike. Obi Wan fights him off.

”Their swords clash like thunder and streaks of lightning, as they thrust and parry. Suddenly Obi Wan and Vader’s battle moves into an open door way on the other side of the hangar”

Obi Wan is able to “fight off” these ”mighty“ strikes by Vader who is “trying” to force him back. The description goes further in framing the duel as an epic titanic flash by likening the saber clashes as thunderous.

The canon storybook The Rise of a Hero affirms the duel is “savage” with Obi Wan “matching him blow for blow” and that “will end only when one of them is dead”

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Obi Wan matching him blow for blow is consistent with other sources, example being Star Wars: The Original Trilogy Stories (Storybook Collection)

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Having said all this, even the above source notes:

But Vader was physically more powerful than the Jedi master, and had soon gained the advantage over Obi Wan”

From A Certain Point of View: A New Hope makes it abundantly clear that Darth Vader was clearly winning

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Even though we don’t get Vader’s PoV, it is clear from both OOU sources and Ben thinking there’s not enough give in Vader’s arms that Vader was clearly superior

This is not mutually exclusive with the idea that Kenobi, using all of his strength to bear, could stand up against Vader and hold him at bay. So far we have Obi Wan, using all his energy and strength, to hold off a Vader who has learned from his losses on Mustafar and OWK series.

So ANH Vader is able to beat ANH Kenobi with a lot of effort and focus. Yet ANH Sidious is still above Vader

As you can see, the gulf between later era Sidious and ROTS Sidious continues to widen

Force scaling: ANH Sidious >> ANH Vader > ANH Kenobi => Rebels Kenobi > OWK Kenobi > OWK Vader > LOTS Vader > KFV

Sidious is constantly ahead of a Vader who was already noticeably above KFV in the force as of OWK. With statements framing it as being the case that Sidious can match Vader with even a fraction of his power

This brings us to post ESB comics. Before getting into this, it is important to note that ESB Vader is > ANH Vader. As it’s stated Vader is “stronger than ever” after finding out about Luke

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Yet in spite of this, From A Certain Point of View: Empire Strikes Back frames Vader as second to Sidious in power

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ESB Yoda also states that the emperor is too strong to defeat. He also explicitly acknowledges Vader and emperor’s growth

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Yoda is also locked in the Crimson Reign comic series as being less powerful than either Vader or Sidious

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Sidious does stomp a mega conflicted Vader in issue 6 of the 2020 series. But I will refrain from using that as a pure scale, given that it’s stated Vader was nerfed and Sidious explicitly calls him weak because of his conflict in the same panels. He also can’t perform basic force chokes. He’s also stated as weakened in OOU sources, such as De Agostini Star Wars Encyclopdia: Emperor Palpatine

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After Sidious trashes Vader, he then assigns him trials on Exogol to emerge stronger than before. Post trials, Vader has recovered and emerged stronger than before. Yet in issue 11, we see a Vader vs Sidious comparison in how they both react to the kyber mound.

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Vader is hit by it and is screaming in agony for pages

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Notice how Sidious is just causally bathing in it and smiling, whereas Vader is screaming in agony and won’t stop. This shows a gigantic gap between them, indicating that even post ESB, Sidious is still far ahead of Vader

(Also on a side note, this feat is very good. A mound of kyber can power a fleet of planet busting ISD’s)

The opening crawl for the following issue re-affirms that Vader is beginning to comprehend the extent of the emperor’s vast power. He only saw a glimpse of his power. And now knows he is capable of much more than that.

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By the time we get to Darth Vader issue 40, Vader has been L empowered a second force wave and focused his hatred on Sidious. And he now scales close to Sidious, with even the artist affirming this as his view

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/palpatine-and-darth-vader-are-relative-darth-vader-2323807/

So what scale do we have?

Force wave Sidious > post ESB Sidious >>>>> post ESB Vader > ESB Vader > ANH Vader > ANH Kenobi > OWK Kenobi > OWK Vader > LOTS Vader > KFV ~ ROTS Sidious

Force wave Sidious would be just slightly above current force wave Vader. So as you can see, there’s a huge gap between current Vader and KFV in the force and also ROTJ Sidious and ROTS Sidious

And contrary to belief, it IS quantifiable. As early as Lords of The Sith, Sidious is far above a vader who in turn has surpassed KFV in the force. He’s then above the vader in OWK who is clearly above KFV (Obi rock comparison), etc. Even into post ESB era, this gap is still there. This is what makes Vader’s growth into issue 40 very significant

Feats

I didn’t focus too much on force feats, but it’s very obvious later versions of Vader stomp all over KFV in this department

Force wave vader flattened miles worth of forest with a force AoE. Something that is leagues ahead of KFV or ROTS Sidious

Or casually gesturing and destroying a skyscraper:

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He busted through the executor hull, cut ships in half, took down a beat that can cut warships in half, casually gestures to. I could sit here all day and cite them

All of this ROTJ Sidious would scale to. To further add, the recent Timelines books frames Dyad Sidious fleet feat as being attributable to ROTJ Sidious

"Revitalized, he casts aside Rey and Hen and attacks the Ressitance fleet with his renewed power"

Loading Video...
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While it is not mutually exclusive that he could be renewed while also more powerful than before, the language of the text doesn’t denote an increase. But rather bringing back to. TROS Sidious can be above ROTJ, but ROTJ level power is all that’s required to electrocute some 20,000 ships

And as much as I’ve dunked on Reylo before, it is indeed the case that even though they suck as duelists, they are intended as powerful in the force. Yet Zombie Sidious, who is sub ROTJ Sidious, can easily ragdoll them:

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Which Fanhome assets was easy for Sidious:

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So as you can see, ROTJ Sidious is just another beast entirely to ROTS. With Stories of Jedi and Sith 2022 asserting that he’s more powerful than an entire Jedi order:

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All of this just serves to quantify the gap between current Vader and Sidious to PT.

Conclusion

As you can see, the gap is absolutely massive and quantifiable through feats, scaling and statements.