Vader takes this. Though both are highly skilled, Vader is honestly toying with them or actually interested in fighting if he chooses not to end them instantly. Though if he chose to engage in lightsaber combat the story changes quite a lot.
Vader can win if he abuses the force. He dies if he focuses on just dueling tho. Rebels Ahsoka was already pressing him. Peak TCW Maul is superior to his Rebels self who is confirmed superior to Rebels Ahsoka and Peak TCW Maul could press Vader's superior Palpatine in a duel
Vader wins, Ahsoka had absolutely no hope of defeating Vader alone and TCW S7 Maul isn't going to clear the gap if he's vastly sub-Anakin as per Ahsoka, given Vader >> Anakin > Ahsoka
He already low-diffed Ahsoka in 46/47 seconds and has her struggling to keep up with him for the last 10 seconds before he pushed her off the cliff in pure Sabers. And both are complete fodder to him in raw Force-Powers.
Vader can win if he abuses the force. He dies if he focuses on just dueling tho. Rebels Ahsoka was already pressing him. Peak TCW Maul is superior to his Rebels self who is confirmed superior to Rebels Ahsoka and Peak TCW Maul could press Vader's superior Palpatine in a duel
She did not press Vader in anyway, shape or form. She lost in pure Sabers in 47 seconds, tops. And was struggling to keep up in the last 10 seconds of the duel.
And TCW Sheev was toying with TCW Maul. Maul only managed to do well against that version via an insane rage-amp after Savage died. And Sheev stomped him when he got serious.
And that Sheev is below RoTS Sheev, who Vader scales above both him and Yoda:
On-screen portrayal, Darth Vader goes down rather soundly. We've already seen an exhausted Ahsoka Tano prove a most worthy challenge for the Emperor's chief enforcer within the Sith Temple on Malachor -- an arena strong in the dark side of the Force. Even outside of that climatic confrontation, the director of the series pointed out that thanks to her Jedi training, Ahsoka Tano has the fighting prowess necessary to go blow-for-blow with an opponent like Darth Vader; unlike half-trained students such as Kanan Jarrus and Ezra Bridger, Tano can genuinely compete with Vader. Likewise, even during the Imperial Era, former Dark Lord Maul was comparable as a warrior to Ben Kenobi and Lord Vader according to those behind the relevant show, and the half-cyborg Zabrak demonstrated this in combat with Ahsoka Tano -- also on Malachor. Of course, this thread has selected a somewhat sharper incarnation of Darth Maul, if still past his prime. Notwithstanding his downgrade in status, Lord Maul still lays claim to the power of a true Sith, and therefore can, unlike the Imperial Inquisitors, stand strong against another Sith like Lord Vader.
Against a pair of well-trained and exceptionally agile Jedi and Sith, both capable of contending well enough on their own, Darth Vader will find himself outmatched.
ahsoka challenged vader on her own on a nexus after fighting numerous other opponents
maul isn’t too far off from ahsoka
together they kill him
the idea that vader can defeat 2 high tier star wars characters at once only exists in the minds of the people on this site. be realistic or you won’t be taken seriously.
Ahsoka gave Vader a good fight on her own, and she gave herself up or the fight would have continued, not that she would have won. Vader didn't leave unscathed either. He limped away from the battle and was missing half his mask. You could easily argue that Vader's mask saved him in that fight because if he didn't have it, she would have cut through his face. Same with Kenobi.
Throwing Maul in the mix creates an unfair fight. He took on Qui Gon and Obi Wan, essentially beating both of them. He also beat Ahsoka in TCW. It seems Mauls weakness is finishing the task.
I know everyone loves Vader, but he is not taking out Ahsoka and Maul.
Ahsoka gave Vader a good fight on her own, and she gave herself up or the fight would have continued, not that she would have won. Vader didn't leave unscathed either. He limped away from the battle and was missing half his mask. You could easily argue that Vader's mask saved him in that fight because if he didn't have it, she would have cut through his face. Same with Kenobi.
Throwing Maul in the mix creates an unfair fight. He took on Qui Gon and Obi Wan, essentially beating both of them. He also beat Ahsoka in TCW. It seems Mauls weakness is finishing the task.
I know everyone loves Vader, but he is not taking out Ahsoka and Maul.
some experts saying that Waider is much better forceuser and he beats them by Force
Part of the fight was off screen so it’s definitely over 47 seconds. Also, Vader beat Ahsoka with a force push so Idk how it‘s a pure saber victory.
He already low-diffed Ahsoka
The fact that it took almost or possibly over a minute for Vader to beat Ahsoka via BFR disproves that it was a low diff fight for him. We also have confirmation from StarWars.com that Ahsoka held her own:
her struggling to keep up with him for the last 10 seconds before he pushed her off the cliff
@krishnyak: Maul and Ahsoka both have force feats that would keep them from getting dominated. It’s going to come down to sabers, and he isn’t taking both of them out.
Part of the fight was off screen so it’s definitely over 47 seconds. Also, Vader beat Ahsoka with a force push so Idk how it‘s a pure saber victory.
We don't know how long it took in-universe with the off-screen part. Same with Maul Vs Ahsoka. And they clearly didn't go far from the entrance with their duel. Using off-screen stuff doesn't help her case and isn't quantifiable.
The fact that it took almost or possibly over a minute for Vader to beat Ahsoka via BFR disproves that it was a low diff fight for him. We also have confirmation from StarWars.com that Ahsoka held her own:
We don't know if it actually took over a minute. The best from what we have on-screen is barely 50 seconds. And them fighting longer off-screen is very unlikely considering how close they were to the entrance.
And there's also the fact that this Ahsoka was matched by a rusty Rebels Maul who has been implied and stated as her superior in and out of universe. So her being anywhere near Vader is very unlikely as well. The best she did is no different than what Eeth Koth or Kirak did against Vader. But those two are not considered anywhere near him due to obvious reasons. And those two are not wanked like her.
And Vader struggled to beat her.
No he didn't. We can easily know when Vader is struggling via the noise he makes. Similar to what happened when he fought Kenobi or Luke. Vader didn't even let out a groan or a grunt against Ahsoka. While she was doing so in the last 10 seconds of their duel. He was driving her back the whole time in the same way Mustafar Vader did when he was dominating Mustafar Kenobi. But the difference is, Mustafar Kenobi actually managed to land a few hits on his Vader. While Ahsoka couldn't. And was overpowered in pure Sabers and then casually thrown off a cliff. And the first thing she does next time, is cheapshotting the guy.
They're not equal or even close to each other. The Pic you posted is contradicted by the on-screen fight.
Ahsoka also gave herself up, so it’s not like the fight was over.
That was to save Ezra and the Ghost Crew after she cheapshotted Vader. We're talking about their first, uninterrupted duel. Which she soundly lost with low-diff in pure Sabers. And was being drove back by Vader without issue.
@cryolancer47: I’d compare it to the Yoda/Dooku fight in AOTC. Dooku wasn’t going to win, but that doesn’t mean it was going to be easy for Yoda.
Ahsoka wasn’t going to win, but that doesn’t mean it was easy for Vader. Maul is strong and skilled enough for him and Ahsoka to beat Vader. She kept him busy long enough for the Ghost team to escape. Throwing in the sith that killed Qui Gon means the team wins.
@cryolancer47: I’d compare it to the Yoda/Dooku fight in AOTC. Dooku wasn’t going to win, but that doesn’t mean it was going to be easy for Yoda.
Ahsoka wasn’t going to win, but that doesn’t mean it was easy for Vader. Maul is strong and skilled enough for him and Ahsoka to beat Vader. She kept him busy long enough for the Ghost team to escape. Throwing in the sith that killed Qui Gon means the team wins.
That comparison fails because Dooku has actual good scaling to AoTC Yoda in Force-Power. Who is above pre-TPM Yoda that managed to stop a giant mountain creature:
Base RoTS Anakin Skywalker already scales above Yoda in Force Power. Who performed this feat Pre-RoTS:
And the higher your Force-Power = Better Augmentations. Which is the reason why Yoda couldn't dispatch him easily. But pressed him instead with his sheer skills in Saber combat.
And Dooku's Saber skills are as far as the sun and moon from Ahsoka’s. This comparison is plain faulty.
And it was easy for Vader. No proof it wasn't. He drove her back and never let out a grunt or a groan like he did against Kenobi or Luke. Which is the biggest, and only clue to know whether he struggles in Sabers. He was silent the whole time, and had her struggling to keep up clashing with him until he casually pushed her off the cliff.
@cryolancer47: I’d compare it to the Yoda/Dooku fight in AOTC. Dooku wasn’t going to win, but that doesn’t mean it was going to be easy for Yoda.
Ahsoka wasn’t going to win, but that doesn’t mean it was easy for Vader. Maul is strong and skilled enough for him and Ahsoka to beat Vader. She kept him busy long enough for the Ghost team to escape. Throwing in the sith that killed Qui Gon means the team wins.
That comparison fails because Dooku has actual good scaling to AoTC Yoda in Force-Power. Who is above pre-TPM Yoda that managed to stop a giant mountain creature:
Base RoTS Anakin Skywalker already scales above Yoda in Force Power. Who performed this feat Pre-RoTS:
And the higher your Force-Power = Better Augmentations. Which is the reason why Yoda couldn't dispatch him easily. But pressed him instead with his sheer skills in Saber combat.
And Dooku's Saber skills are as far as the sun and moon from Ahsoka’s. This comparison is plain faulty.
And it was easy for Vader. No proof it wasn't. He drove her back and never let out a grunt or a groan like he did against Kenobi or Luke. Which is the biggest, and only clue to know whether he struggles in Sabers. He was silent the whole time, and had her struggling to keep up clashing with him until he casually pushed her off the cliff.
Good point. Makes it even more clear lol.
OT: Two Sub-Dooku opponents ain’t doing shit to Vader. He ragdolls both
@nassergrant19: @cryolancer47: These are examples of easy. Vader was pushing her back and was going to win, but at no point in their duel did Vader have a clear kill shot until she gave herself up.
That comparison fails because Dooku has actual good scaling to AoTC Yoda in Force-Power. Who is above pre-TPM Yoda that managed to stop a giant mountain creature:
The novelization disagrees, even the movie disagrees. Yoda was clearly above Dooku and wasn't challenged by him by sabers or force. Dooku's lightning is described as futile. At no point does Yoda attack Dooku with the force. Ahsoka successfully force pushed Vader at the beginning of their fight.
Vader is striking hard and striking to kill. He is not toying with Ahsoka, and she defends. He pushed her off the ledge, yes, but she pushed him back, too. The bottom line is that Vader did not kill Ahsoka, (though he eventually would have) until she gave herself up. Easy is shown above. The Vader/Ahsoka fight doesn't fit the "easy" mold.
Before addressing your points I just wanted to say that I don’t think they’re equals, I just think that she can hold her own.
We don't know how long it took in-universe with the off-screen part. Same with Maul Vs Ahsoka. And they clearly didn't go far from the entrance with their duel. Using off-screen stuff doesn't help her case and isn't quantifiable
They were close to the white area before the cut. Since Vader was basically fast walking, it could have definitely taken 13 seconds or more for them to get to where they are in the picture.
And there's also the fact that this Ahsoka was matched by a rusty Rebels Maul who has been implied and stated as her superior in and out of universe. So her being anywhere near Vader is very unlikely as well.
What has Vader done sabers wise to suggest that someone who was matched by Rebels Maul wouldn’t be able to hold their own against him?
The best she did is no different than what Eeth Koth or Kirak did against Vader. But those two are not considered anywhere near him due to obvious reasons. And those two are not wanked like her.
They’re near the versions of Vader they fought(only saber wise in Koth’s case), they just fought weaker versions.
No he didn't. We can easily know when Vader is struggling via the noise he makes. Similar to what happened when he fought Kenobi or Luke.
Can you post examples(for Luke and Obi-wan fights)?
Ahsoka
Since Vader could only overpower Ahsoka slowly, he was definitely struggling especially since she was able to push back in the first bladelock and was contending while in a worse position in the 3rd
While she was doing so in the last 10 seconds of their duel.
I’m pretty sure she only made a noise when she was force pushed
He was driving her back the whole time in the same way Mustafar Vader did when he was dominating Mustafar Kenobi.
She stood her ground at multiple points so it wasn’t the whole time. Plus, Mustafar Kenobi and MFV are close to each other.
But the difference is, Mustafar Kenobi actually managed to land a few hits on his Vader. While Ahsoka couldn't.
That only time Vader tagged her was at the end with a force push but Ahsoka also tagged him with a force push so it balances out.
And the first thing she does next time, is cheapshotting the guy.
So?
The Pic you posted is contradicted by the on-screen fight.
These are examples of easy. Vader was pushing her back and was going to win, but at no point in their duel did Vader have a clear kill shot until she gave herself up.
He did. The moment he pushed her was literally a killing window. But he chose to push her off instead of cutting her due to PIS to keep her alive.
The novelization disagrees, even the movie disagrees. Yoda was clearly above Dooku and wasn't challenged by him by sabers or force.
That's plain false. He was challenged and they were matched in Force-Power. Which is why Yoda then pulls out the Saber. That's what George intended for:
"Dooku is surprised when his old master, Yoda, arrives. After equalling each other with feats of Force power, they ignite their blades and clash in an explosive duel. Yoda's acrobatic style is matched by Dooku's finesse and the fight ends with Yoda electing to save Obi-Wan and Anakin from death rather than defeat his old Padawan."
-- 2017 Journey to Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Trading Card #112
George Lucas: You can't just go right into the sword fight, so I decided to go back to The Empire Strikes Back of throwing things at each other, even though I knew they were equal to each other, so it was a hopeless gesture and they would've figured that out in two seconds. But for the audience it's nice for them to go through this process of everybody throwing everything around.
Source -- Attack of the Clones DVD Commentary
Using the novelization Is fine, up until it contradicts George's intent. Who's WOG on the prequels is second to none.
Vader is striking hard and striking to kill. He is not toying with Ahsoka, and she defends. He pushed her off the ledge, yes, but she pushed him back, too. The bottom line is that Vader did not kill Ahsoka, (though he eventually would have) until she gave herself up. Easy is shown above. The Vader/Ahsoka fight doesn't fit the "easy" mold.
Good for her. She knows the basics of Saber combat. Doesn't change the fact that she struggles to keep up in Sabers and was outright getting her guard broken in the last 10 seconds. She did not push him back. He was the one doing so. She did not give herself up. He beat her sound and clear in the first duel. Bringing up the second half after she cheapshotted him doesn't count and sacrificed herself to save Ezra and the Crew matters little. Because he won with low-diff, fair and square. And was the one dominating their first duel.
Before addressing your points I just wanted to say that I don’t think they’re equals, I just think that she can hold her own.
I know you probably don't think they're equals. That was just something I added to the point I was making.
They were close to the white area before the cut. Since Vader was basically fast walking, it could have definitely taken 13 seconds or more for them to get to where they are in the picture.
That sounds like speculation. I personally don't like using off-screen stuff because that just makes things more dependent on speculation. But fair enough. 13 more seconds makes it 59 seconds or a minute and 1 second where she was low-diffed by him.
What has Vader done sabers wise to suggest that someone who was matched by Rebels Maul wouldn’t be able to hold their own against him?
Being around/above OWK Kenobi in round 1 during their final duel. Who is arguably on the level of Mustafar Kenobi. Which is the Version Vader fought last time before losing his limbs. Which is why he stated that Kenobi's powers have returned.
And him saying "Your powers have returned..." before dominating him in Force, breaking his guard, and throwing him in the hole. All points at Vader scaling off of Mustafar Kenobi.
And Ahsoka herself believes that Anakin would've beaten TCW Maul. Who is > The rusty Rebels Maul, who is implied and stated to be > Rebels Ashoka in & out of universe:
You even have implications both in & out of universe about the rusty Rebels Maul being > her:
Referencing Malachor here.
Given that the “logical choice” is pairing Maul with “the weakest of the Jedi”, it then follows that Maul is the strongest of the group. Furthermore, the gap between Ahsoka and Maul is noticeable enough that Kanan (and Ahsoka) are willing to trust Maul with Ezra (Ahsoka and Kanan clearly care for him and likely won’t place him in danger unless absolutely necessary).
This is reflected in Maul and Ahsoka’s respective performances with the Inquisitorius.
In both cases, we have Ahsoka’s superiority to the Inquisitors being evident (less so for the second clip, but I’m letting that slide). In the first clip, she drives them back with some effort, and in the second she (along with Kanan) drive back another pair of Inquisitors. To contrast, Maul casually annihilates them:
Which is supported by the claim that Maul “does so easily” in reference to defeating the Inquisitors. Ahsoka handles the Inquisitors the way Maul handles Qui-Gon in TPM--by taking them out in an extended fight. Maul handles the Inquisitors the way Sidious handles the B-Team in ROTS. From the multiple pieces of evidence that support the claim, we can establish that Maul is indeed a superior to Ahsoka as of Rebels, by a noticeable margin nonetheless.
There's also this quote from Matt Martin about Rebels Maul in comparison to his TCW self:
So this old, rusty Maul managing to keep up with Ahsoka and ragdolling the Inquisitors while Ahsoka, Kanan & Ezra chat is a testament to how powerful a Younger Maul is in comparison. So ruling him out cause he got ragdolled by the Sheev-sack is a bit unfair. Cause Ahsoka got manhandled in a similar manner by Vader in a strictly Saber combat only situation.
Ahsoka doesn't have enough evidence to be above Maul in raw Force-Power.
And seeing how TCW Kenobi could clash with Maul. Someone scaling near Mustafar Kenobi would beat him soundly.
They’re near the versions of Vader they fought(only saber wise in Koth’s case), they just fought weaker versions.
Koth was being dominated and beaten soundly, just like Ahsoka, despite using the darkside against Vader to amo himself.
Can you post examples(for Luke and Obi-wan fights)?
Sure.
Vader struggles against Kenobi (Skip to 1:47, 2:00, 5:33 [you can hear Vader yelling/groaning] and 6:03):
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Vader struggles against RoTJ Luke (Skip to 1:00, where Luke breaks Vader's guard and kicks him away. Or 4:06 where Luke overpowers Vader in Sabers. Forcing him to take a step-back. Or Skip to 4:16, where Luke pushes Vader back again. And continues to drive him back before cutting his arm):
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That up there is what keeping up with, and matching Vader in Sabers, looks like.
Ahsoka
Since Vader could only overpower Ahsoka slowly, he was definitely struggling especially since she was able to push back in the first bladelock and was contending while in a worse position in the 3rd
Ahsoka is clearly struggling and gritting her teeth in the examples you posted, as well as getting pushed back by Vader in the second, during their blade-lock. And the last one is her after repeatedly being.
And they seem to ignore how how much of an upper-hand Vader had through their barely 1 minute duel.
1. Vader gets Ahsoka off of him without making a noise, and with one hand. And then has her gritting her teeth just by clashing:
2. Vader breaks Ahsoka’s guard early in their duel, and pushes her back:
3. Vader pushed Ahsoka to the right with a swing. Almost similar to what Maul did to Inquisitors:
Maul doing something similar to Seventh Sister with his Saber clash:
4. Vader presses Ahsoka and drives her back and makes her struggle more:
5. Vader's assault makes Ahsoka struggle to keep up with him, and pushes her back:
6. Vader has her struggling and gritting her teeth just by clashing. Breaks Ahsoka’s guard, again. And casually Force-Pushed her:
The above speaks for itself. Ahsoka was not matching or even challenging Vader. She was delaying the inevitable. And barely doing so, at that.
I’m pretty sure she only made a noise when she was force pushed
It actually happened after he immediately broke her guard and reached out. Although, it could be argued she made the noise after he Force-Pushed her.
But there's also the expression on her face when Vader is relentlessly clashing with her. Which shows how much she's struggling. Which still backs my point about her not being relative or close to him in Sabers. Just skilled enough to not get killed immediately against Rebels Vader.
She stood her ground at multiple points so it wasn’t the whole time. Plus, Mustafar Kenobi and MFV are close to each other.
Not really. Also, Mustafar Vader, despite being nerfed to all hell. Was still dominating and having the upper-hand on Kenobi.
He then goes on to struggle against Mustafar Vader in CQC on multiple occasions.
Mustafar Vader breaks Kenobi's guard and kicks him:
Mustafar Vader drives Kenobi back, and overpowers him again:
Vader overpowers and chokes Kenobi:
Kenobi only manages to escape with a kick when Vader wasn't ready, only for Vader to recover quickly and kick Obi-Wan before the latter can swing at him:
Both are equally matched in the Force, and are blown back from the clash. But Vader recovers immediately, while Kenobi is clearly affected by what happened:
This is how much a kick from Kenobi affects the hindered Vader:
And this is how a kick from Vader affects Kenobi:
Vader overpowers Kenobi in a blade-lock, TWICE:
And I'm sure there's a few more if we go further.
And Mustafar Kenobi was at his Pre-OWK peak. Which puts him above Utapau & Base RoTS Kenobi:
As well as him possibly being at his previous Prime level (Before the events of OWK, of course.) And reaching insane heights after the Invisible Hand fight. Specifically Utapau and Mustafar:
Moreover, at this point in time Kenobi hadn't learned to reach the heights he had by Utapau, let alone Mustafar (easily his most powerful self):
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?""I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—""Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."
So now, facing the tornado of annihilating energy that is Grievous's attack, Obi-Wan simply is who he is.
The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a dif-ferent angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.
After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. —slice— The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it
This is elaborated on in the Mustafar duel, where Kenobi not only becomes "who he is" but also lets go of all attachments and focuses on one thing; stopping Anakin:
With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but un-stoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.
His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.
Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders.
Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the black-sand shoreline of a lake of fire.
Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.
It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.
Fire rained around them.
Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.
Anakin came on.
Out on the tightrope of power conduit, their blades blurred even faster than before. They chopped and slashed and parried and blocked. Lava bombs thundered to the ground below, shedding drops of burning stone that scorched their robes. Smoke shrouded the planet's star, and now the only light came from the hell-glow of the lava below them and from their blades themselves. Flares of energy crackled and spat.
This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.
It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.
Personally.
Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.
Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.
The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all...Obi-Wan still loved him.
Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.
Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...
He let it go.
So, no, they weren't really close. It's just that Kenobi had advantages that allowed him to not lose his head early on. Which also required Anakin to get nerfed badly:
Anakin was also hindered by the return of the dragon and having just choked his wife and suffered an emotional betrayal, hindering him:
He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.
All things die.
Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.
Now its poison chilled him to the bone.
Even stars burn out.
He shook himself again and strode toward the holocomm.
He would talk to his Master.
Palpatine had always helped him keep the dragon down.
And M-Vader was still pushing him back and having the upper-hand, despite how much he got dicked down for this fight to happen.
So, yeah. Rebels Vader has enough scaling in Sabers to say he deals with a rusty, out-of-shape Maul level combatant. And TCW Maul. But he doesn't have to resort to Sabers against two opponents. Because a smart Vader not affected by Filoni-style PIS, will use the Force on one. And then takes out the other.
That only time Vader tagged her was at the end with a force push but Ahsoka also tagged him with a force push so it balances out.
That's different. She Force-Pushed him when he was mid-swing and not actively defending, thanks to her mobility advantage:
And while he didn't tag her physically, due to how easy she would die and that would be the episode and GG no re for the crew. He was still dominating the duel throughout. Pushing her back. Breaking her guard. And had her gritting her teeth and struggling to keep up, as I showed you.
And the first thing she does next time, is cheapshotting the guy.
So?
That affects Vader. Go back and watch it. He loudly screams in pain when it happens. And is then on his knee.
The Pic you posted is contradicted by the on-screen fight.
vaders fight with ahsoka is certainly not belonging into "toying" cathegory . yoda was toying with ventress , AoTC dooku was toying with AoTC obi - wan , ESB vader was toying/testing ESB luke , but this was a good and legit fight - vader had the upper hand but he was not dominating her - when distracted he even got force pushed and tagged into his mask . vader would win but he would have to work for it not toying .
if vader abuses the force and takes one of them out with TK (at least temporarily) he wins this , i think he is smart enough to know that if he goes for 2v1 straight up lightsaber duel against 2 highly skilled lightsaber duelists he could and probably would die . overall he takes this via his vastly superior force powers .
@cryolancer47: No one is saying Vader and Ahsoka are equals. I’ve said multiple times that Vader was going to kill her eventually. Yes, he was winning and pushing her back and wore her down to where she was struggling.
This, however, doesn’t change the fact that she was keeping up with him, enough so that throwing another skilled force user and duelist in the mix means Vader is losing.
If the fight was easy for Vader, he kills her as quickly as Dooku beat Anakin and Obi in AOTC, as effortlessly as Yoda disarmed Ventress in TCW, or any other example I posted earlier.
You also need to consider the fact that Ashoka has two goals—avenge Anakin and save the Ghost Crew. She is going to lead Vader away to help aid their escape first.
Vader has one goal—get the holocron from Ezra. It’s in his best interest to kill Ahsoka quickly, hence the hard strikes, but he can’t do it. He is not holding back.
Yes, he wears her down, but she is willing to sacrifice herself for the Ghost crew. Ahsoka knows she isn’t waking away from this fight, which is why she gives herself up.
Add Maul, which is something we haven’t really discussed in detail. Vader isn’t going to be able to solely focus Ahsoka like he did in their Rebels fight, which means he will not be able to push her back like he was. Otherwise, Maul cuts him in two. His heavy strikes are less effective, and he has to abuse the force to try and separate them.
Ahsoka wasn’t easy for Vader when she was attempting to lead him away from the Ghost crew. Maul and Ahsoka are very evenly matched, meaning Maul probably wouldn’t be easy for Vader either.
Add in the fact that the op says they are determined to win, and you have team coming out on top. Vader was determined in the Rebels fight because killing Ahsoka means getting the holocron. Ahsoka’s main goal was to save the Ghost crew.
13 more seconds makes it 59 seconds or a minute and 1 second where she was low-diffed by him.
If it was low diff they wouldn’t have been fighting as long as a minute.
Being around/above OWK Kenobi in round 1 during their final duel. Who is arguably on the level of Mustafar Kenobi. Which is the Version Vader fought last time before losing his limbs. Which is why he stated that Kenobi's powers have returned.
OWK Kenobi is equal to Mustafar Kenobi in force power but should be far less skilled.
And Ahsoka herself believes that Anakin would've beaten TCW Maul. Who is > The rusty Rebels Maul, who is implied and stated to be > Rebels Ashoka in & out of universe
If you don’t think Maul was hindered here then I can just say TCW Maul>TCW Ahsoka<<<Rebels Ahsoka<Rebels Maul
And seeing how TCW Kenobi could clash with Maul. Someone scaling near Mustafar Kenobi would beat him soundly.
Maul had time to grow after their last fight too so this isn‘t a perfect scaling chain for your argument.
The problem with this TCW Maul scaling argument is that it relies on one statement so I can just say Rebels Maul’s superiority to Rebels Ahsoka contradicts the TCW Maul>Rebels Maul statement and your argument falls apart.
Koth was being dominated and beaten soundly, just like Ahsoka, despite using the darkside against Vader to amo himself.
I disagree:
"One-sided battle". They fought a marathon duel wherein all Vader visibly managed was to tag Koth with the Force twice. Whoop-de-de. Koth outright slashed Vader in the head with his blade -- and we can literally see sparks flying, thank you very much:
Nevermind the fact that this was a lengthy duel overall, with both combatants emerging battered and bruised from their off-panel match. A duel that ended with Vader electing to distract Koth with his child, then cheapshot him. A duel that Koth was fully confident as to his ability to win -- Ahsoka also fought closely with Vader, yet knew she was no match after their first duel -- throughout the fight, with Vader himself saying "we shall see" in response to Koth claiming he'll prevail.This is the textbook definition of a good fight. Lengthy, blows traded, no clear superior, inconclusive ending.
Credit to Lord_Tenebrous
1:47, 2:00… …4:06
These only happen because Vader’s was being overpowered and not when he’s struggling to overpower them.
5:33
This happened right as Vader was about to lock blades with Obi-wan so it’s probably just an angry yell instead of a groan.
6:03… …4:16
These only happen because he was in pain(getting hit by a rock and getting his arm cut off respectively).
Ahsoka is clearly struggling and gritting her teeth in the examples you posted
I’m not arguing that Ahsoka wasn’t struggling, I’m just showing that she can contend with his strength.
the last one is her after repeatedly being.
Being what?
Vader gets Ahsoka off of him without making a noise, and with one hand
Ahsoka is in the air so he’s just lifting her body weight here.
Vader breaks Ahsoka’s guard early in their duel, and pushes her back
And she recovered immediately after. Plus she initially pushed his blade back in this gif too.
Vader pushed Ahsoka to the right with a swing. Almost similar to what Maul did to Inquisitors
Sure but he only did it once.
The above speaks for itself. Ahsoka was not matching or even challenging Vader. She was delaying the inevitable. And barely doing so, at that.
The fact that she could stand her ground at points, last for a minute, and contend with his strength shows that she’s a challenge. Her getting forced back a lot isn’t that damning since even inferiors can force back slight superiors for a while:
The Phantom Menace audii description on Disney Plus states ''Qui Gon drives Maul back into a narrow coridoor''. This is only reinforcing their competitiveness, earlier at time stamp 1:55:46 the descriptions remarks that they ''duel fiercely''.
As we can see, Jinn performs remarkably better in the 1v1 than the 2v1. He drives Maul back, matches his blows in saber clashes and counters his every move.
It actually happened after he immediately broke her guard and reached out. Although, it could be argued she made the noise after he Force-Pushed her.
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She only does it right after he puts his hand up so it was definitely because of the force push.
But there's also the expression on her face when Vader is relentlessly clashing with her. Which shows how much she's struggling. Which still backs my point about her not being relative or close to him in Sabers. Just skilled enough to not get killed immediately against Rebels Vader.
Not really:
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Sidious makes a struggle face when fighting Mace. Do your claims apply to this fight as well?
Not really. Also, Mustafar Vader, despite being nerfed to all hell. Was still dominating and having the upper-hand on Kenobi.
Yes, Anakin was superior but Obi-wan matched him blow for blow at multiple points and they tagged each other a similar amount of times. Plus, Obi-wan mentions in one of the quotes you posted that he was letting Anakin drive him back:
Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.
It was a place, he decided, they should reach together.
Obi-wan was doing the same before he let go of his attachments too:
In every exchange, Obi-wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would be to burn his own heart to ash
This is elaborated on in the Mustafar duel, where Kenobi not only becomes "who he is" but also lets go of all attachments and focuses on one thing; stopping Anakin:
With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but un-stoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.
His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.
Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood.
This part actually contradicts movie since Obi-wan wasn’t holding Anakin’s lightsaber and escaped a different way. It’s also contradicted by the Kenobi show since he doesn’t forgive himself for Anakin’s fall until their conversation at the end of their final duel in the show. Therefore, it’s not canon:
The “be who you are“ conversation with Mace likely isn’t canon as well since it’s a scene that doesn’t appear in the movie
So, no, they weren't really close. It's just that Kenobi had advantages that allowed him to not lose his head early on. Which also required Anakin to get nerfed badly
The only advantages were power level related which is irrelevant since I’m only saying Obi-wan is close to this hindered Anakin.
Because a smart Vader not affected by Filoni-style PIS, will use the Force on one. And then takes out the other.
In the Kenobi show, Vader didn’t use the force until Kenobi did despite the fact that Kenobi had the upper hand for a decent amount of time prior to the force usage. Vader will try to use it eventually but not early on like I think you’re implying. Besides, I’m mostly concerned with convincing you that Ahsoka didn’t get low diffed or whatever by Vader rather than trying to convince you that the team could win.
And M-Vader was still pushing him back and having the upper-hand, despite how much he got dicked down for this fight to happen.
So, yeah. Rebels Vader has enough scaling in Sabers to say he deals with a rusty, out-of-shape Maul level combatant
M-Vader actually outperformed OWK Vader saber wise so OWK Vader doesn’t scale above him as you seem to be implying.
That's different. She Force-Pushed him when he was mid-swing and not actively defending, thanks to her mobility advantage:
And Vader force pushed her because of his strength advantage and she wasn’t actively defending then either. They’re not different.
And while he didn't tag her physically, due to how easy she would die and that would be the episode and GG no re for the crew
Nah, he’s just a fodder duelist. He’s lucky blind Kanan felt so bad for Vader that he decided not to one shot him.
That affects Vader. Go back and watch it. He loudly screams in pain when it happens. And is then on his knee.
Did he get hit so hard that his pain traveled back in time or something? I don’t see how this is relevant to round 1 of Vader vs Ahsoka.
The Pic you posted is contradicted by the on-screen fight.
@krishnyak: vader's inability to kill ahsoka in 2 minuites of fighting when his stated intention was to kill her(pablo) on a ds nexus where he would be amped suggests
To be blunt, most of your posts can be dismissed with awareness of what's been explicitly stated about vader and ahsoka's fight. The rest can be dismissed with a basic application of logic. So I'll just make a post that establishes basic facts and simple logical extrapolations from what we see.
FACTS
-> Vader is explcitly stated by Pablo Hidalgo to be trying to kill Ahsoka when they fight.
So he is not "toying" with her.
-> Malachor is explictly stated to be a Dark Side Nexus
-> Malachor is explicitly stated to empower darksiders
Vader is amped
-> Filoni explicitly states that Vader can beat her "because he taught her"
Vader benefits from being Ahsoka's master
As we can see from what is explictly stated, vader enters her fight with Ahsoka with multiple circumstance dependent advantages, one of which wouldn't be applicable here.
Basic Extrapolations
-> Animated sw fights rarely go past one minuite
-> Even a fight between explicit near equals in luminara and ventress is less than a minuite despite Ahsoka helping luminara in a 2 v 1:
-> Ahsoka and Vader fight for more than 2 minuites without Vader being able to land a decisive blow.
-> Vader is only able to land one hit on Ahsoka in 2 minuites, a force push that deals no signifcant damage
-> Ahsoka is able to land 2 kicks of her own
Considering all of the above i think we can safely say the fight was "high-diff".
-> Vader is trying to kill Ahsoka
-> Vader does not directly use the force on Ahsoka until she is in a position where she can't defend herself(in canon one must actively gesture to defend themselves with the force)
-> Rebels Vader is consistently potrayed as pragmatic
-> Vader repeatedly abuses the force when the oppurtunity presents itself throughout his canon apperances
Pretty obvious then that Vader can't simply "abuse the force" to win here. He had 2 minuites to use the force against an opponent he wanted dead and only managed one inconsequential hit.
-> Being on Malachor empowers the inqustors to fly
-> The inquistors are able to avoid being stomped by Ahsoka 1 v 1 on Malachor
-> The inqusitors are curb-stomped individually by Ahsoka on nuetral ground and do worse in a 2 v 1 than they do in a 1 v1
-> Only sidious and Vader(not maul) can go "blow for blow" with Ahsoka according to Feloni
-> Maul is able to go blow for blow with Ahsoka on Malachor for a minuite
Vader is probably signifcantly amped by Malachor and is performing signifcantly better than he would on nuetral ground
In Summary
-> Vader is not powerful enough to carve out a signficant advantage over ahsoka using force attacks, even when amplified by a nexus
-> Vader has a "high-diff" fight vs Ahsoka even when amplified by a nexus and benefitting from "having taught her"
Think we can safely conclude even a 1 v 1 would be a contentious affair. Frankly considering the nexus Ahsoka beating Vader(as of rebels at least) is not far-fetched
Only avenue of victory for Vader here is CW Maul being fodder to him(there is evidence to support that argument) and then Vader soloing in a greuiling affair. If Maul is any help Vader probably loses. Even if he's complete fodder he could quite reasonably lose 1 v 1.
In any case, the idea that Vader can stomp is ridiculous
Agreed. I don’t think Malachor is a significant amp(they’re considered equals outside of the fight), but the intent behind the episode is clear; Ashoka is a peer of peak advantaged Rebels Vader. Baffling why people think she’s some Dooku tier fighter
OT: Ashoka and Maul win. Unless this is after the cut in his helmet, where Ashoka is stated no match for his amped state and should be able to beat either pretty easily
Edit: Didn’t realize it was TCW Maul. Vader fodderizes Maul even before the amp and probably eventually beats Ashoka due to style. Post amp Vader wins solidly
I don't have any doubt that Vader was trying to kill Ahsoka. He briefly hesitated during their brief dialogue when she damaged his mask, but if anything he seemed to double-down on his hatred and if not for Ezra, would've defeated her with minimal injury.
I'm not doubting that Malachor is a dark side nexus as I've seen the claim made many times, but could you source it please? I can't find any quotes online anywhere. Furthermore if possible can we quantify this amp somehow? As far as I know, the Inquisitors flying is a result of their lightsabers and not a Malachor-exclusive book. I believe Star Wars: The Lightsabed Collection clarifies this but I don't own the book so if somebody else does I'd much appreciate it if they could help out here.
Vader certainly does benefit from being Ahsoka's master, but it's not a one-sided advantage by any means;
"It's ironic, Anakin taught her to fight much larger opponents than her; someone exactly like Darth Vader." - Dave Filoni
Ahsoka has been trained as an ideal counter for someone like Vader, and furthermore she'll benefit from her familiarity with Anakin's style - sure, it would've changed somewhat but his bladework was recognisable enough that even non-duelists such as Tarkin were able to deduce Vader & Anakin are one and the same, in no small part due to how they wield their blade;
"Later, observing the rapport the Dark Lord shared with the stormtroopers who supported him, and the technique he displayed in wielding his crimson lightsaber, Tarkin grew more and more convinced that his suspicions were right." - Tarkin Novel
Ahsoka would certainly benefit greatly from familiarity, just as Vader would. I don't think it's an advantage only enjoyed by the Sith.
I don't consider their fight a high-diff one for Vader - the Sith Lord went unscathed save a slash to his mask by Tano due to Vader's hyperfocusing on his goal, the Sith Holocron. Other than that, she was on the back foot for the vast majority of their battle and would have died without a doubt if not for the intervention of Ezra.
I don't really buy into the idea that Vader is amped to a huge degree, honestly. His performance on Malachor isn't anything outside of his usual range. As for why he didn't abuse the Force in this battle as he did against say, Cal Kestis on Nur? Its simple - Vader prides himself deeply on his lightsaber abilities, and genuinely seems to enjoy a duel (as much as he can enjoy anything at this stage in his life); we see as much during the Kenobi show. Vader hasn't been truly challenged in lightsaber combat in almost a decade at this point, he'd be itching to cross blades with somebody that can actually give him a workout.
The way I see it, Maul as of Season 7 is a pyschologically broken, nervous mess trying to do whatever he can to stop the rise of a power he could never hope to defeat, and for all the power Ahsoka Tano possesses, she's no match for her master, not by a long shot.
I do think this is a much closer fight than I did when I first replied to this thread, and it will genuinely be a high-difficulty engagement for Lord Vader, but I still think he wins more often than not.
@kaore: “Across the galaxy, there are numerous worlds that possess Force vergences. At these locations. Force sensitives may have stronger interactions with the Force.”
Vader is also stated to have adapted a new form of saber combat, and Filoni implies she could FIGHT big opponents. Not counter them the same way Form 2 counters Form 3
@living162637: I meant a source for Malachor being a vergence, and a vergence that only enhances darksiders, I might've not worded it well.
Yeah, Vader definitely has a different form of lightsaber combat but there's evidently notable crossover with how he fights as Anakin, which would benefit Ahsoka. Filoni said Ahsoka was taught to fight someone "exactly like Darth Vader", that's a pretty explicit statement saying that Ahsoka's style is well-suited to fighting Vader in particular.
The image above the caption includes Malachor. I cant post the image cause I’m on mobile
I agree Ashoka can fight Vader, but I don’t think Filoni implies she’s advantaged. Vader however explicitly is stated to always defeat her because he taught her. A much harder counter
“The rage of the Sith Lord, boosted by his firm determination to sever all ties with his past, made him a much more powerful enemy, and soon Ashoka was forced to retreat, fearing for her life.”
I can send the full scan on Discord if you have one
So Rebels Ahsoka and CW season 7 Maul are pretty even at this point, in my thread of this battle ( except Maul was SOD) people made pretty good arguments for either one winning.
Vader is no longer the mess he was during the OWK show and whether or not he's in his prime he is certainly more powerful then the OWK show version. Infact it seems likely that his loss to Obi Wan Kenobi actually contributed to him improving and learning from his mistakes.
In terms of the Ahsoka vs Vader fight it seems kind of obvious to me that initially Vader was not seeking to kill Ahsoka but he did want to incapacitate her pretty quickly. It has been confirmed that Vader was planning to kill Ahsoka during their confrontation and that she couldn't turn him back to the light but we definitely see Anakin come out for a second before Vader takes control again, it is at this point that I believe Vader is now trying to kill Ahsoka. At this point though Ahsoka appears to be conflicted because she has seen a glimpse of Anakin and she is resigned to stay there and not leave him this time. I'm not even certain that she was trying to kill him anymore, I think she was just trying to buy time for the others to escape.
I've also seen some pretty good arguments in this thread such as this one:
"Vader is explcitly stated by Pablo Hidalgo to be trying to kill Ahsoka when they fight.
So he is not "toying" with her.
-> Malachor is explictly stated to be a Dark Side Nexus
-> Malachor is explicitly stated to empower darksiders
Vader is amped
-> Filoni explicitly states that Vader can beat her "because he taught her"
Vader benefits from being Ahsoka's master
As we can see from what is explictly stated, vader enters her fight with Ahsoka with multiple circumstance dependent advantages, one of which wouldn't be applicable here.
Basic Extrapolations
-> Animated sw fights rarely go past one minuite
-> Even a fight between explicit near equals in luminara and ventress is less than a minuite despite Ahsoka helping luminara in a 2 v 1:
-> Ahsoka and Vader fight for more than 2 minuites without Vader being able to land a decisive blow.
-> Vader is only able to land one hit on Ahsoka in 2 minuites, a force push that deals no signifcant damage
-> Ahsoka is able to land 2 kicks of her own
Considering all of the above i think we can safely say the fight was "high-diff".
-> Vader is trying to kill Ahsoka
-> Vader does not directly use the force on Ahsoka until she is in a position where she can't defend herself(in canon one must actively gesture to defend themselves with the force)
-> Rebels Vader is consistently potrayed as pragmatic
-> Vader repeatedly abuses the force when the oppurtunity presents itself throughout his canon apperances
Pretty obvious then that Vader can't simply "abuse the force" to win here. He had 2 minuites to use the force against an opponent he wanted dead and only managed one inconsequential hit.
-> Being on Malachor empowers the inqustors to fly
-> The inquistors are able to avoid being stomped by Ahsoka 1 v 1 on Malachor
-> The inqusitors are curb-stomped individually by Ahsoka on nuetral ground and do worse in a 2 v 1 than they do in a 1 v1
-> Only sidious and Vader(not maul) can go "blow for blow" with Ahsoka according to Feloni
-> Maul is able to go blow for blow with Ahsoka on Malachor for a minuite
Vader is probably signifcantly amped by Malachor and is performing signifcantly better than he would on nuetral ground"
I think based on what we see during their fight and other evidence presented such as Malachor boosting dark side powers and Vader attempting to kill Ahsoka ( imo once he says "then you will die") then when discussing the Ahsoka vs Vader fight we saw, overall Vader definitely had an edge over Ahsoka. Personally, I think that during the first part of their fight, Vader was trying to force Ahsoka back into that location so that he could BFR her, rather then go for a kill. If Ahsoka was facing Vader on her own during Rebels at the Jedi temple then I have no doubt that Vader would win. Let's say Vader tracked her down after the events we saw in Rebels and they are both now 100% intent on killing each other and have no confliction left, then I think Vader would beat her but she would give him a good fight. Ahsoka was visibly struggling vs Vader during their fight and he was starting to tire her out.
Really whether or not Maul paired with Ahsoka can turn this into a win depends on how much of a gap there is between Vader and Ahsoka, which depends on how much of a boost Malachor gave him amongst other things.
To make things clear in how I see it so far:
After an intitial good showing from Ahsoka, Vader began to pressure her a lot whilst going for bfr on Ahsoka, Ahsoka was going for the kill though it seems at this point.
Vader is significantly boosted by malachor as it boosts the strength of the dark side to the degree that an inquisitor isn't oblterated in a 1v1 vs Ahsoka when she could curbstomp them in a 2v1 on neutral ground
Vader was slashed by Ahsoka but only because he was so focused on stopping Ezra and Kanan from escaping and didn't have time to react to her two lightsabers. I think this is still a significant detail though even when we consider that they would both have Vader's full attention
Ultimately once Vader was determined to kill Ahsoka then she would have lost but she seemed to be conflicted at this point but it was also likely an acceptance that she had lost as she couldn't beat him.
These factors really make it challenging to gauge the gap between the two of them.
Now when we add in Maul, we have to consider how well they will work as a team, how Vader will deal with the pressure of a double bladed lightsaber and Ahsoka's 2 blades, how the setting will come into play, how they compare in the force etc.. etc...
I think that given Maul and Ahsoka being on a very similar level, Vader would be extremely hard pressed to beat them both in a duel - expecially when we consider him having one lightsaber vs essentially 4 potential blades hitting him. He would have to be able to fend off blows from two very skilled opponents and he simply doesn't have the same agility as them ( in particular as Ahsoka). He won't just be able to hammer away at them with sheer power and tire them out because then the other opponent will find an opening and punish him.
Obviously though we have to consider the force because this is really the determining factor. If Vader can ragdoll them with the force then he will absolutely do that once he realises that he can't outmatch them in a duel.
So in terms of the force, we know that Sidious can ragdoll Maul. Vader was able to temporarily ragdoll sidious when he found out Padme was dead but Sidious quickly put him in his place. Maul is no joke in the force though either, I mean I think that this:
Overall though I think given how easily Sidious ragdolled Maul and based on what we know that Vader is capable of in the comics as well as the fact that Sidious is at all wary that Vader could overthrow him then I think Vader should comfortably be stronger in the force then Maul and should be able use it against him but I don't see him being able to completely BFR him with it in the same way that Sidious could seperate Maul and Savage by ragdolling either one.
I think Ahsoka is actually the weak link here, we know that when she force pushed Vader he just slid backwards and Maul was able to use the force against her to escape:
But Ahsoka is really no joke either, infact we see in the same scene above that she is stopping Maul's ship from flying off. But I think that Vader>Maul> Ahsoka when it comes to the force. So perhaps Vader could BFR Ahsoka using the force and then overpower Maul? It's possible but with a 20 foot starting distance and two skilled duelists to deal with, once he realises he can't beat them in a duel he may not get the chance that he needs to use the force to seperate them for long enough for it to matter. I mean there's always the chance that they can combine their force powers on him, similar to what Ezra and Kanan did but it would be much more effective when they do it. I don't however think that they have enough synergy to really combine their force attacks in this way vs Vader.
In conclusion, I think that this is actually a really good fight. I imagine it going down like this:
Initially they duel, Vader matches them both for a time before realising that they will eventually be able to beat him so he decides to try and use the force to seperate them. I think that Vader will be capable of occassionally ragdolling either one but I simply don't think that he will be able to keep them from regrouping. When Sidious ragdolled Maul he was able to kill Savage before Maul could get back into the fight, in this scenario however I don't think that Vader can kill either one of them before the other can return to the fight. Ultimately I think they will be able to beat him but I can see one of them dying in the process.
-> Ahsoka struggles with the inqusitors throughout the episode despite effectively stomping them when they faced each other on nuetral ground
Additionally on nuetral ground...
"We used to have this problem in Clone Wars when we would try to put Yoda in a story and it would be like, “Yeah, if Yoda’s there, this isn’t really a problem is it?” That’s because Yoda’s going to go in there and kick everyone’s butt. We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor."
Yet on Malachor, Maul and to a lesser extent the inqusitors are able to match her "blow for blow". Think we can safely extrapolate that the nexus is a signicant factor here.
I don't really buy into the idea that Vader is amped to a huge degree, honestly. His performance on Malachor isn't anything outside of his usual range
This is just lazy. Vader's only feat on Malachor is fighting Ahsoka and there's no comparison to be drawn between Ahsoka and anyone else vader faces around this time frame. We have no way of actually establishing whether Vader's performance is "within" or "outside" his usual range. Vader and Ahsoka have not fought outside the nexus of Malachor.
As for why he didn't abuse the Force in this battle as he did against say, Cal Kestis on Nur?
The first thing Vader does vs Cal is abuse the force:
As it is, the main factor in lightsaber combat between force users is force power. This is established pretty clearly by Lucas/Gillard. If Ahsoka could be abused with the force then she would not be able to fight with him. And if Vader could truly just beat Ahsoka with the force, then he would have.
I don't consider their fight a high-diff one for Vader - the Sith Lord went unscathed
Ahsoka also emerged unscathed. Again, instead of just making claims, why don't we use a duel between explicit "near equals" for reference:
-> Animated sw fights rarely go past one minuite
-> Even a fight between explicit near equals in luminara and ventress is less than a minuite despite Ahsoka helping luminara in a 2 v 1:
Vader failed to do any serious damage to Ahsoka in more than 2 minuites of fighting. Vader conceded 2 hits in the start of the fight and landed one of his own after a minite of fighting. Additinoally Vader gets a rage amp after more than a minuite of fighting and is still unable to do any serious damage to Ahsoka after 2 minuites of fighting:
“The rage of the Sith Lord, boosted by his firm determination to sever all ties with his past, made him a much more powerful enemy, and soon Ashoka was forced to retreat, fearing for her life.”
Note that Vader is specficially amplified here because Ahsoka happens to be someone he knows.
Using the standard set by the fight I linked you, Ahsoka and Vader's Malachor clears the bar of "high-diff" quite easily with Vader being amped. Vader can eventually beat Ahsoka while amped after a marathon duel. Ahsoka ~ Vader(as of Rebels) is virtually self-evident. The only thing that's really up for dispute is Maul's utility.
The way I see it, Maul as of Season 7 is a pyschologically broken, nervous mess trying to do whatever he can to stop the rise of a power he could never hope to defeat
None of which should weaken him combatively. Sith explicitly use their own fear as a source of power. Maul would also be growing stronger as the clone wars progressed as the galaxy's "darkness" was constantly increasing throughout the war.
The whole "maul is super hindered when he fights Ahsoka" angle is a an assumption cobbled together based on a voice actor quote and a misunderstanding of how the darkside works in the mythos. Sith convert their own fear into anger. This is what Sidious instructs Anakin to do when he fights Dooku in the ROTS novelization:
Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.
Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.
Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene."Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"
Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?
The whole "maul is super hindered when he fights Ahsoka" angle is a an assumption cobbled together based on a voice actor quote and a misunderstanding of how the darkside works in the mythos. Sith convert their own fear into anger. This is what Sidious instructs Anakin to do when he fights Dooku in the ROTS novelization:
ROTS Maul is more powerful than TCW Maul. As it is, TCW Maul is explicitly stated to be "light years" behind Vader so using TCW Maul instead of ROTS Maul isn't likely to make a difference.
@breakingthrones: Pre-Rebels Maul is explicitly ~ A "vastly" (explictly stated) pre-prime Ahsoka. Anyone trying to argue equality here is arguing from ignorance. Pre-Rebels Maul is also "light years" behind Vader who ahsoka does very well against despite him being amped.
Only time Maul might have any sort of parity to Rebels Ahsoka is in Rebels and he needs a Nexus to get there. Otherwise only Sidious and Vader can go "blow to blow" with Ahsoka per Filoni who likens Ahsoka to Yoda.
I think Ahsoka is actually the weak link here, we know that when she force pushed Vader he just slid backwards and Maul was able to use the force against her to escape:
Besides that being a vastly pre-prime Ahsoka, she was in no position to defend herself. In Canon unless you actively gesture to defend yourself any force user will be able to land a hit on you. As it is a vastly pre-prime Ahsoka was able to hold Maul against his will telekenetically:
It's doubtful maul has any sort of power edge on Ahsoka when even an amped Vader is unable to do damage to Ahsoka using the force. In 2 minuites of fighting Maul isn't even able to use the force on a vastly pre-prime Ahsoka.
What exactly is Maul's argument for equality here besides a certain fanbase's headcanon
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