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#1 Edited by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 its Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, and Darth Zannah. Round 2 is the same line-up except Darth Malgus replaces Exar Kun

After their deaths at Palpatine's hands the three Jedi masters awaken to find themselves in the Father's Castle on Mortis. Waiting for them are three Sith Lords who waste little time in attacking them. Can the Jedi defeat them?

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#2 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#3 Posted by JamesKM716 (2018 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow said:

Round 1 its Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, and Darth Zannah. Round 2 is the same line-up except Darth Malgus replaces Exar Kun

After their deaths at Palpatine's hands the three Jedi masters awaken to find themselves on the Father's Castle on Mortis. Waiting for them are three Sith Lords who waste little time in attacking them. Can the Jedi defeat them

Exar Kun is better than Malgus.

I think the Jedi can win. Zannah is the biggest challenge here, it's a close match.

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#4 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716: I know that. The rounds aren't in order of least difficult to most difficult. I had a second round where the Sith team is dumbed down to make sure this wasn't closed on the grounds of being a mismatch or something like that.

My understanding is that Ulic Qel-Droma and by extension Exar Kun are better than Zannah in lightsaber combat but weaker in Force power. At least Qel-Droma is anyway.

Personally I think the Sith should win Round 1, especially in the Force department. Zannah and Kun's Force ability is leaps and bounds better than anything Mace's buddies have shown that I know of.

Round 2 the Jedi stand a better chance, but only because Malgus is a weak link.

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#5 Posted by JamesKM716 (2018 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Okay, just making sure.

That is true, but there saber combat may not be better than the Jedi Team's.

I'm no expert, Round 2, the Jedi Team totally wins. Round 1 i'm not sure about.

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#6 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716: Well, the way I see it, Kun's saber skills are at least as good as any of the three Jedi's but probably better, so I'd say Kun beats whoever he goes up against. I would say that Zannah also beats whoever she takes on, if only because Zannah's Sith Sorcery>>>>Any of the three Jedi's few TK feats that I know of. If Zannah has time to unleash her Sith Sorcery she does terrible, terrible things to whichever Jedi is unlucky enough to take her on.

Ulic Qel-Droma Vs. Kit Fisto was already posted here and triggered a bit of a debate, so I'd say that would go on for a while. That said, Kit's lightsaber form is especially useful against both multiple lightsaber blades and multiple opponents, both of which are present here, especially in Round 1 where we have two combatants with double-bladed lightsabers. That said I still don't see Kit beating Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel and the outcome of him Vs. Qel-Droma is debatable. He definitely beats Malgus and Zannah in a lightsaber duel though.

So, let's assume the fights go like this:

Exar Kun Vs. Agen Kolar or Saesee Tin-Exar Kun wins. I'd say Kolar gives him more of a fight then Tinn does but he wins either way.

Kit Fisto Vs. Either Ulic Qel Droma or Darth Zannah goes on for a while, with either Sith Lord being able to beat whoever Exar Kun doesn't fight. Then its 3 Sith Lords against Kit Fisto, and even though his lightsaber form offers him an advantage against both multiple opponents and multiple lightsaber blades, these three particular Sith together are still way out of his league and he dies a horrible death.

All in all I'd say the Sith take Round 1 with some mild difficulty.

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#7 Posted by JamesKM716 (2018 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow:

Kit vs Zannah

-Kit's style should allow him to defeat Zannah. Perhaps not quickly, but after some time, Fisto wins.

Kun vs Tiin

-This fight should take some time, considering Tiin has stalemated Mace (according to Nova and Silver), but regardless i think Kun wins, but itll take some time.

Kolar vs Qel-Droma

-This fight is the one i'm most unsure of. I don't know enough of either character to make a complete decision.

So once Zannah and Tiin are dead, that leaves Kit vs Kun, in which case, i think Kun wins.

So it comes down to Kolar and Qel-Droma. Whoever wins that their team should win.

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#8 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716 said:

@shroudofsorrow:

Kit vs Zannah

-Kit's style should allow him to defeat Zannah. Perhaps not quickly, but after some time, Fisto wins.

Yes, after some time. The problem is the other two fights will have been decided by then and Kit gets dogpiled.

@JamesKM716 said:

Kun vs Tiin

-This fight should take some time, considering Tiin has stalemated Mace (according to Nova and Silver), but regardless i think Kun wins, but itll take some time.

Much as I generally respect their opinions (along with those of Steelhound) this is one time I disagree. For three reasons:

1. That was not Mace at his peak. He didn't even have his purple lightsaber yet, so even if the feat is 100% legitimate (which I personally don't think it is) its not as impressive.

2. The scene I felt was ambiguous enough that its not clear whether it was a casual spar or they were going all out. Given that they were having a conversation while sparring, I am more inclined to believe it was the former.

3. We never see the outcome of that duel, at least not in the scan I saw. We don't see if it really ended in a draw or not. And if it did end in a victory for Mace or Tinn, how close was it?

So all in all I don't consider that to be a terribly great showing for Tinn. Certainly not enough to make him stand a chance against Exar Kun.

@JamesKM716 said:

Kolar vs Qel-Droma

-This fight is the one i'm most unsure of. I don't know enough of either character to make a complete decision.

Qel-Droma. He stalemated Kun I believe, and that was at least as legitimate as Tinn's duel with Windu, but I'd say probably more. It is by no means an effortless win, but Qel-Droma still wins all the same.

Then it is 3 Sith against one, or if Kit has in fact beaten Zannah by then, a somewhat tired Kit Fisto against a somewhat tired Qel-Droma backed up by Exar Kun. Kit dies. If Zannah's still alive, he goes down even faster. And keep in mind Zannah's lightsaber style is a defensive one, and her skill level was such that she lasted for quite a while against a bloodlusted Darth Bane.

And finally, if you have Kit Fisto Vs. Qel-Droma and Agen Kolar Vs. Darth Zannah, then the Sith win even faster and more easily. Kit Fisto and Qel-Droma would definitely be going at it for a while.

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#9 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow said: 

1. That was not Mace at his peak. He didn't even have his purple lightsaber yet, so even if the feat is 100% legitimate (which I personally don't think it is) its not as impressive.

Prove that Mace was not at his peak. Just saying "he didn't have his purple lightsaber" is insufficient. His lightsaber has nothing to do with his mastery. Because the fact is, I can prove to you that Mace was already a master of Vaapad, a Jedi Master, and a member of the Council by that time. Conversely, it has never been stated or even implied that Mace's skills increased later on. Honestly, this whole "Mace wasn't at his prime" argument is becoming tiresome. Every time someone mentions Jedi fighting Mace before AotC, that is always the counter, and it is never substantiated by anything. That excuse is literally made up out of thin air. 
 

2. The scene I felt was ambiguous enough that its not clear whether it was a casual spar or they were going all out. Given that they were having a conversation while sparring, I am more inclined to believe it was the former.

Mace and Quin talked while dueling too; that hardly prevented Quin from fighting aggressively. Kam and Corran talked while they dueled; that hardly prevented them from fighting seriously. Luke and Gantoris talked while they dueled; that hardly prevented Luke from fighting seriously or Gantoris from fighting aggressively. A conversation in the midst of a duel is not uncommon, not even in real duels. Mace and Sora had a conversation while fighting in Schism, and Mace and Ventress shared a few words during their duel in that issue as well. I fail to see your point with this. 
 
Saesee fought Mace. Why people find this is so difficult to accept is beyond me. Tiin is one of the best duelists in the Order. It isn't stretching to believe he could pose a challenge to Mace. Mace is the superior swordsman but not exponentially, only marginally. It is completely feasible for Saesee to fight evenly with him. 
 

Certainly not enough to make him stand a chance against Exar Kun.

No? Tiin's feat is certainly more impressive than anything the Jedi Kun has defeated have accomplished. Vodo-Siosk Baas? He has no feats. Crado? He has no feats. Sylvar? She has no feats. Ulic? He has beaten a non-Force sensitive Mandalore in a very unorthodox duel that was not resolved by virtue of combat skill, and he has beaten Cay, who was disinterested in fighting Ulic for obvious reasons. Saesee's one feat supersedes the accomplishments of the characters against whom Kun's skill has been tested. There is no viable reason to assume that Tiin would be incapable of fighting Kun. Exar's powers would be inefficient against Tiin as well. Telekinesis? Saesee's showings with TK exceed Exar's. Drain? Exar has only manifested Drain within the confines of his Temples which radiate with a dark side aura that bolsters his powers. Blast? Kun's Force Blast when not augmented by the Massassi Temple's energies failed to even kill Aleema; Exar would be hard pressed to land a hit with it on Saesee, much less defeat him with it. And that operates under the assumption Kun obtains the opportunity to employ it. In a duel, Saesee has superior physical feats to Kun and comparable skill. There is no clear victor between Saesee and Exar. 
 

Qel-Droma. He stalemated Kun I believe, and that was at least as legitimate as Tinn's duel with Windu, but I'd say probably more. It is by no means an effortless win, but Qel-Droma still wins all the same.

Kolar's feat of effortlessly stomping Quinlan Vos within a few panels at least matches Ulic's feat of stalemating Kun, and his status as one of the greatest duelists the Jedi Order ever produced amplifies his chances against Ulic even more. There is no clear victor here either. 
 
The Jedi team has the skill advantage. Kun might be comparable to the Jedi in pure skill, though against Fisto, he would probably lose on account of Shii-Cho, and even then, I could probably form a case for the Jedi surpassing Kun's skill if I wanted to (but I will just let that go for now). Ulic is likely slightly inferior to any of the Jedi, and Zannah is definitely behind them. Malgus as well. 
 

Personally I think the Sith should win Round 1, especially in the Force department. Zannah and Kun's Force ability is leaps and bounds better than anything Mace's buddies have shown that I know of.

Zannah's Force abilities? Maybe so. Kun's? Nonsense. His best Force abilities have little use in a fight, and the rest scale behind Tiin and Fisto's.
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#10 Edited by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

I sort of had a feeling I was inviting divine wrath when I mentioned your name. Ah well. Guess that was just asking for it.

@Silver2467 said:

Prove that Mace was not at his peak. Just saying "he didn't have his purple lightsaber" is insufficient. His lightsaber has nothing to do with his mastery. Because the fact is, I can prove to you that Mace was already a master of Vaapad, a Jedi Master, and a member of the Council by that time. Conversely, it has never been stated or even implied that Mace's skills increased later on. Honestly, this whole "Mace wasn't at his prime" argument is becoming tiresome. Every time someone mentions Jedi fighting Mace before AotC, that is always the counter, and it is never substantiated by anything. That excuse is literally made up out of thin air.

Is it not unreasonable to assume that individuals improve over time? Anakin and Obi-Wan improved a lot over the years. Just because Mace made it to the Council as of that duel does not necessarily mean he would never get better. And I never said Mace's lightsaber color had anything to do with his skills. I was simply pointing out that since he doesn't get his purple lightsaber until later this is him at an earlier stage in his life and thus, maybe not as skilled. Regardless, I see the point you are making here. There is no need to get angry.

@Silver2467 said:

Mace and Quin talked while dueling too; that hardly prevented Quin from fighting aggressively. Kam and Corran talked while they dueled; that hardly prevented them from fighting seriously. Luke and Gantoris talked while they dueled; that hardly prevented Luke from fighting seriously or Gantoris from fighting aggressively. A conversation in the midst of a duel is not uncommon, not even in real duels. Mace and Sora had a conversation while fighting in Schism, and Mace and Ventress shared a few words during their duel in that issue as well. I fail to see your point with this.

My point was that when two characters are engaged in a lengthy conversation (not the same as a few lines of banter) I am not as inclined to believe they are going all out, as generally when people fight seriously and aggressively there isn't much room to be running your mouth. Regardless, based on all the evidence you have just shown me to the contrary, I can rescind that part of my statement.

@Silver2467 said:

No? Tiin's feat is certainly more impressive than anything the Jedi Kun has defeated have accomplished. Vodo-Siosk Baas? He has no feats. Crado? He has no feats. Sylvar? She has no feats. Ulic? He has beaten a non-Force sensitive Mandalore in a very unorthodox duel that was not resolved by virtue of combat skill, and he has beaten Cay, who was disinterested in fighting Ulic for obvious reasons. Saesee's one feat supersedes the accomplishments of the characters against whom Kun's skill has been tested. There is no viable reason to assume that Tiin would be incapable of fighting Kun. Exar's powers would be inefficient against Tiin as well. Telekinesis? Saesee's showings with TK exceed Exar's. Drain? Exar has only manifested Drain within the confines of his Temples which radiate with a dark side aura that bolsters his powers. Blast? Kun's Force Blast when not augmented by the Massassi Temple's energies failed to even kill Aleema; Exar would be hard pressed to land a hit with it on Saesee, much less defeat him with it. And that operates under the assumption Kun obtains the opportunity to employ it. In a duel, Saesee has superior physical feats to Kun and comparable skill. There is no clear victor between Saesee and Exar.

I must say I'm beginning to find the "he's featless, he's featless" argument to be really, really tiresome. What were the feats of all the people Darth Plagueis ever killed? We all agree that Plagueis is top-tier and yet beyond killing his master when he was trapped under rubble and helpless, none of his victims are to my knowledge anything but "featless". Completely dismissing victories because the defeated party was "featless" I feel is an overused way to dismiss showings, but whatever.

Don't Kun's Amulets amplify his Force ability or somesuch? Or were those feats you mentioned above done when he had his amulets?

@Silver2467 said:

Kolar's feat of effortlessly stomping Quinlan Vos within a few panels at least matches Ulic's feat of stalemating Kun, and his status as one of the greatest duelists the Jedi Order ever produced amplifies his chances against Ulic even more. There is no clear victor here either.

Exar Kun>Quinlan Vos in my book, but I see the point here. I'd still give it to Qel-Droma personally though, though it goes on for a while either way.

@Silver2467 said:

The Jedi team has the skill advantage. Kun might be comparable to the Jedi in pure skill, though against Fisto, he would probably lose on account of Shii-Cho, and even then, I could probably form a case for the Jedi surpassing Kun's skill if I wanted to (but I will just let that go for now). Ulic is likely slightly inferior to any of the Jedi, and Zannah is definitely behind them. Malgus as well.

Wasn't it earlier determined on a different posted thread that Zannah's Force Ability is better than Kit Fistos? Or am I delusional? I would think Zannah's Sith Sorcery surpasses any of the TK feats Tinn, Kolar, and Kit Fisto have demonstrated.

@Silver2467 said:

Zannah's Force abilities? Maybe so.

Isn't Zannah's Sith Sorcery supposed to be extremely good?

@Silver2467 said:

His best Force abilities have little use in a fight, and the rest scale behind Tiin and Fisto's.

But not Agen Kolars? Again, what of Exar Kun's amulets?

Finally, this is totally off-topic, but who is your new avatar of? He looks kind of cool.

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#11 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow said: 

Is it not unreasonable to assume that individuals improve over time? Anakin and Obi-Wan improved a lot over the years. Just because Mace made it to the Council as of that duel does not necessarily mean he would never get better. And I never said Mace's lightsaber color had anything to do with his skills. I was simply pointing out that since he doesn't get his purple lightsaber until later this is him at an earlier stage in his life and thus, maybe not as skilled. Regardless, I see the point you are making here.

Bad comparison. Anakin was a Padawan becoming a Knight, and Obi-Wan was a Knight becoming a Master. There is no evidence whatsoever that Mace improved at all in the subsequent years. In fact, given that Mace has fought characters he engaged during his formative years in the Jedi Order, such as Sora, Depa, or Dooku, and given that the outcome of those fights were as close as they were when he was younger, no I find it not unreasonable to assume that his skills were relatively static from the point he joined the Council until his death. Besides that, this argument is completely reversible. How do you know that Saesee's abilities had not developed more over time? How do you know he didn't become even more even with Mace in the years immediately preceding his death? If you can assess Windu's growth in that fashion, I expect you to apply that standard to Tiin as well. Otherwise, there is a contradiction in your point. 
 

My point was that when two characters are engaged in a lengthy conversation (not the same as a few lines of banter)

The examples of conversations overscoring duels did not involve just a few lines of banter. They were conversations. 
 

I must say I'm beginning to find the "he's featless, he's featless" argument to be really, really tiresome. What were the feats of all the people Darth Plagueis ever killed? We all agree Plagueis top-tier and yet beyond killing his master in anything but a fair fight, none of his victims are to my knowledge anything but "featless". Completely dismissing victories because the defeated party was "featless" I feel is an overused way to dismiss showings, but whatever.

Where in the world did this red herring come from? We are talking about raw, technical lightsaber skill. Plagueis is very top tier in knowledge, mastery, and Force power. As a combatant, he is impressive, but his skills can be somewhat more ambiguous. Besides that, you disregarded any and all circumstances relating to Plagueis' duel with Venamis, which included Venamis' expertise of the precise forms Plagueis specialized in. Kun has never won a duel against a foe who was an adept tantamount to him to the letter. Plagueis' duel with Venamis was almost analogous to fighting a doppelganger. His ability to defeat Venamis in spite of Venamis' facility in Plagueis' fighting styles shows adaption and skill on Plagueis' part. Plagueis' recognition of a number of lightsaber forms, his familiarity with countless types of weapons, his ability to train Sidious into one of the best swordsman of all time, and the sheer amount of information he has accumulated from the Banite Sith Archives, which are tremendously extensive, speak well for Plagueis' skill. Is he one of the best Sith duelists out there? Difficult to say. Is he very skilled? Yes. There is some ambiguity with him. But then, I repeat my initial question: What does Plagueis have to do with anything? We were talking purely about being adroit with a lightsaber. Plagueis' fights with every character besides Venamis is totally irrespective of that point because Plagueis was never shown (key word) contending with anyone else with a lightsaber. 
 
This response of yours really has nothing to do with what I said. 
 

Or were those feats you mentioned above done when he had his amulets?

Yes, they were. 
 

Exar Kun>Quinlan Vos in my book, but I see the point here. I'd still give it to Qel-Droma personally though.

Ulic stalemated Kun while Exar was wielding a single-blade lightsaber. Kun presented the most threat when he adopted his dual-blade. And even then, Ulic never beat him. Beyond that, Kun's supposed status as an eclipsing swordsman to Kolar is highly debatable. But at any rate, Quin is a comparable duelist to Ulic in any case. Kolar's ease of victory over Quin portends nothing favorable for Ulic, should Ulic duel Agen. Kolar is just a better duelist than Ulic.

Isn't Zannah's Sith Sorcery supposed to be extremely good?

Yes, but that hardly means she will just easily rip through any of their minds, especially not Tiin's. Tiin is a notable telepath himself. Zannah would have trouble with him. 
 

But not Agen Kolars?

No. Kolar lacks Force feats. 
 

Finally, this is totally off-topic, but who is your new avatar of? He looks kind of cool.

Cronal.
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#12 Edited by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Bad comparison. Anakin was a Padawan becoming a Knight, and Obi-Wan was a Knight becoming a Master. There is no evidence whatsoever that Mace improved at all in the subsequent years. In fact, given that Mace has fought characters he engaged during his formative years in the Jedi Order, such as Sora, Depa, or Dooku, and given that the outcome of those fights were as close as they were when he was younger, no I find it not unreasonable to assume that his skills were relatively static from the point he joined the Council until his death. Besides that, this argument is completely reversible. How do you know that Saesee's abilities had not developed more over time? How do you know he didn't become even more even with Mace in the years immediately preceding his death? If you can assess Windu's growth in that fashion, I expect you to apply that standard to Tiin as well. Otherwise, there is a contradiction in your point.

I had said I saw your point did I not? I can see what you're getting at here too. I'll rescind this part of my argument.

@Silver2467 said:

The examples of conversations overscoring duels did not involve just a few lines of banter. They were conversations.

I know that. I also said that I saw the point you were making and rescinded that part of my argument/statement as well.

@Silver2467 said:

Where in the world did this red herring come from? We are talking about raw, technical lightsaber skill. Plagueis is very top tier in knowledge, mastery, and Force power. As a combatant, he is impressive, but his skills can be somewhat more ambiguous. Besides that, you disregarded any and all circumstances relating to Plagueis' duel with Venamis, which included Venamis' expertise of the precise forms Plagueis specialized in. Kun has never won a duel against a foe who was an adept tantamount to him to the letter. Plagueis' duel with Venamis was almost analogous to fighting a doppelganger. His ability to defeat Venamis in spite of Venamis' facility in Plagueis' fighting styles shows adaption and skill on Plagueis' part. Plagueis' recognition of a number of lightsaber forms, his familiarity with countless types of weapons, his ability to train Sidious into one of the best swordsman of all time, and the sheer amount of information he has accumulated from the Banite Sith Archives, which are tremendously extensive, speak well for Plagueis' skill. Is he one of the best Sith duelists out there? Difficult to say. Is he very skilled? Yes. There is some ambiguity with him. But then, I repeat my initial question: What does Plagueis have to do with anything? We were talking purely about being adroit with a lightsaber. Plagueis' fights with every character besides Venamis is totally irrespective of that point because Plagueis was never shown (key word) contending with anyone else with a lightsaber.

This response of yours really has nothing to do with what I said.

It was me basically choosing to vent my annoyance at the whole "he's featless" argument being constantly used as an excuse to consider showings worthless. Plagueis was merely an example I gave of someone who to me seemed to be treated as uber in spite of beating mostly featless opponents. I can give other examples and am rather tempted to do so but its off-topic and my better judgment is telling me that its just a bad idea.

@Silver2467 said:

Ulic stalemated Kun while Exar was wielding a single-blade lightsaber. Kun presented the most threat when he adopted his dual-blade. And even then, Ulic never beat him. Beyond that, Kun's supposed status as an eclipsing swordsman to Kolar is highly debatable. But at any rate, Quin is a comparable duelist to Ulic in any case. Kolar's ease of victory over Quin portends nothing favorable for Ulic, should Ulic duel Agen. Kolar is just a better duelist than Ulic.

I thought you said there was no clear winner. Now you're saying there is a clear winner.

@Silver2467 said:

Yes, but that hardly means she will just easily rip through any of their minds, especially not Tiin's. Tiin is a notable telepath himself. Zannah would have trouble with him.

I could see Tinn's telepathic abilities (which am I correct to assume are something of a natural skill his race possess?) giving her some trouble, but I still see Zannah's viciousness ultimately winning out. Kit's mind is definitely falling to her. Didn't Zannah destroy Bane with her Sith Sorcery?

@Silver2467 said:

No. Kolar lacks Force feats.

Yeah, he always more of a Jedi Guardian than he was a Consular from what I know of him (sorry, the KotOR fanboy in me couldn't resist)

So then would I be wrong to say that Zannah would do terrible things to Agen Kolar with her Sith Sorcery if she were given the chance?

@Silver2467 said:

Cronal.

Nice. What's he from?

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#13 Edited by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow said: 

I had said I saw your point did I not? I can see what you're getting at here too. I'll rescind this part of my argument.

I know that. I also said that I saw the point you were making and rescinded that part of my argument/statement as well.

I was responding to what you gave me. I never meant to undermine your agreement. 
 

It was me basically choosing to vent my annoyance at the whole "he's featless" argument being constantly used as an excuse to consider showings worthless. Plagueis was merely an example I gave of someone who to me seemed to be treated as uber in spite of beating mostly featless opponents. I can give other examples and am rather tempted to do so but its off-topic and my better judgment is telling me that its just a bad idea.

Plagueis is treated as uber as a Force sensitive. I have never seen anyone say he is this unbeatable duelist or anything. Now, his Force-enhanced physical attributes, which overshadow most characters, and his potency with the Force in conjunction with what combat skill we have seen from him does render him a beast in a fight. That has nothing to do with our discussion, which was isolating skillfulness solely.
 

I thought you said there was no clear winner. Now you're saying there is a clear winner.

Thinking back, I actually mostly said that because I have no idea how Kolar or Ulic's Force powers would influence the fight. I was only addressing fighting proficiency in my previous post. Overall, Kolar is certainly the better fighter, and if the fight is determined exclusively by how prodigious they are as swordmasters, I would choose Agen more often than not. Not really sure if the outcome would be altered when factoring in their Force powers though. I really can only recall a few Force feats from Ulic, none that incredible, and Kolar's Force feats are limited as well. I would need to sift through TotJ again before I can decide that. But from memory, if I had to hazard a guess, neither one of them are primarily Force practitioners; they both seemed to focus on their combative prowess. However, I do need to recheck Ulic's Force feats just be sure. 
 

I could see Tinn's telepathic abilities (which am I correct to assume are something of a natural skill his race possess?) giving her some trouble, but I still see Zannah's viciousness ultimately winning out. Kit's mind is definitely falling to her.

Based on what? Zannah has only ever utilized her mind-influencing sorcery mid-duel by either exploiting a distraction (as she did against one Jedi in Darzu's tomb) or by creating a gap between herself and her opponent (as she did against Set Harth, who was charging at her when she chose to assault his mind, and as she did against Bane, who was standing meters away from her when she infiltrated his mind). She has never done so while an enemy presses her in a lightsaber battle, to my recollection. I have no confidence she would do so against Tiin for a majority, and his capability with a lightsaber outstrips hers. Fisto is a Shii-Cho master; if anything, he would hold the advantage because of Zannah's dual-bladed lightsaber. 
 

Didn't Zannah destroy Bane with her Sith Sorcery?

No. In the first place, the only reason she had the chance to penetrate his mind was because their duel had paused, and Bane broke out of her illusory powers by a Force Scream. Later in the duel, she conjured dark side tendrils which severely wounded Bane, but she only did this by extracting power from the ambient Force energies on Ambria. In the former, her opponent had momentarily stopped attacking her; in the latter, she was amped. That bears little relevance to this fight. Unless Zannah can distance herself from whichever Jedi she faces or unless she can both buy the time needed to summon her energies and simultaneously defend against the blows of duelists who are just plain better than her, she would find it very difficult to win a majority, particularly against Tiin. I can see her beating Kolar and Fisto. Who would win most encounters is debatable though. 
 

Nice. What's he from?

He appears in The Early Adventures and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.
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#14 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Thinking back, I actually mostly said that because I have no idea how Kolar or Ulic's Force powers would influence the fight. I was only addressing fighting proficiency in my previous post. Overall, Kolar is certainly the better fighter, and if the fight is determined exclusively by how prodigious they are as swordmasters, I would choose Agen more often than not. Not really sure if the outcome would be altered when factoring in their Force powers though. I really can only recall a few Force feats from Ulic, none that incredible, and Kolar's Force feats are limited as well. I would need to sift through TotJ again before I can decide that. But from memory, if I had to hazard a guess, neither one of them are primarily Force practitioners; they both seemed to focus on their combative prowess. However, I do need to recheck Ulic's Force feats just be sure.

OK then.

@Silver2467 said:

No. In the first place, the only reason she had the chance to penetrate his mind was because their duel had paused, and Bane broke out of her illusory powers by a Force Scream. Later in the duel, she conjured dark side tendrils which severely wounded Bane, but she only did this by extracting power from the ambient Force energies on Ambria. In the former, her opponent had momentarily stopped attacking her; in the latter, she was amped. That bears little relevance to this fight. Unless Zannah can distance herself from whichever Jedi she faces or unless she can both buy the time needed to summon her energies and simultaneously defend against the blows of duelists who are just plain better than her, she would find it very difficult to win a majority, particularly against Tiin. I can see her beating Kolar and Fisto. Who would win most encounters is debatable though.

Hmmm...you mentioned her being amped via ambient Force energy. Would there being on Mortis (as I stated in the OP) influence that at all?

@Silver2467 said:

He appears in The Early Adventures and Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.

Is he Force-Sensitive? Does he have any feats?

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#15 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow said:

Hmmm...you mentioned her being amped via ambient Force energy. Would there being on Mortis (as I stated in the OP) influence that at all?

If it influences Zannah, it would influence the Jedi team as well. So that amp would flow both ways. With that said, I could be wrong, but I never remember Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Ahsoka being more powerful on Mortis than usual. 
 
On the subject of Ulic's power, I looked through TotJ, and all he accomplished was destroying the interrogation droid that the Krath subjected him to and pushing away Cay and Tott when they visited him in the Empress Teta system. Other than that, I recalll in the TotJ audio drama, Ulic helped Tott and Cay moved a structural beam with considerable effort. That would be about it. His power is mostly insignificant, as is Kolar's. Neither of them are particularly impressive as Force adepts, and neither of them typically make proper use of what few Force powers they do possess during combat. With that in mind, Kolar, being the better combatant, would win a majority over Ulic. 
 

Is he Force-Sensitive? Does he have any feats?

I'm not derailing the thread with this. If you want to know, just read his appearances. He only has a few anyway.
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#16 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

If it influences Zannah, it would influence the Jedi team as well. So that amp would flow both ways. With that said, I could be wrong, but I never remember Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Ahsoka being more powerful on Mortis than usual.

Did the Amp on Ambria work both ways as well? If not, then why? And if yes, how did Zannah still win?

As for Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka, I'm not sure if this counts, but while on Mortis Anakin was able to "tame" the Son and the Daughter. I get he's the Chosen One and all that, but that doesn't make him the most powerful Force user.

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#17 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow said: 

Did the Amp on Ambria work both ways as well? If not, then why? And if yes, how did Zannah still win?

Bane never accessed those surrounding energies. There was no explanation for why given in the novel.
 

As for Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka, I'm not sure if this counts, but while on Mortis Anakin was able to "tame" the Son and the Daughter. I get he's the Chosen One and all that, but that doesn't make him the most powerful Force user.

Anakin subjugating the Son and Daughter had nothing to do with power. It had to do with the fact that he was the only one who could precisely because he was the Chosen One. That bears no relevance on anyone else.
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#18 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Bane never accessed those surrounding energies. There was no explanation for why given in the novel.

I'd say that's poor writing personally. Or PIS so Zannah would win. Probably both.

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#19 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow said:

@Silver2467 said:

Bane never accessed those surrounding energies. There was no explanation for why given in the novel.

I'd say that's poor writing personally. Or PIS so Zannah would win. Probably both.

To be honest, the duel being written in such a way that Zannah had to amp herself in order to overpower Bane is just mediocre writing in general. Karpyshyn spent so much time in the Bane trilogy trying to convince the reader how amazingly powerful Bane is at the expense of Zannah. She had no character depth whatsoever (though in fairness, neither did in Bane in the latter two novels), and her powers for the most part were never too overwhelming. We know from canon sources that she did in fact supersede Bane's powers, probably because her potency in the Force was enhanced after killing her master (since Banite apprentices receive their master's power after the master dies), but Karpyshyn never wrote in the trilogy anything that convinced the reader Zannah was actually superior to Bane. It really is nonsense because the entire point of the story is that Zannah is supposed to be more powerful than Bane in accordance with the Banite system. Karpyshyn just never bore that out in his narrative.
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#20 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: So I would be right to say that Post Bane Trilogy Zannah>Bane yes? Also, how would Zannah after killing her master fare against these three Jedi? I'd personally see her destroying Agen Kolar at least if for no reason than because she has Force feats and he does not.

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#21 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow: There is no way to tell how Zannah would fare against anyone after Bane's death because we have never seen her achieve anything after Bane's death. You would be arguing from ignorance to suggest she would stomp anyone.
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#22 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: But you explicitly said that we know from canon sources that Zannah did supercede Bane in terms of power and likely absorbed his power after killing him. I'm confused.

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#23 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow: Yes, she became more powerful than Bane. So what? How much more powerful is impossible to determine due to inadequate information on her powers. Again, you would be appealing to ignorance to stipulate Post-DOE Zannah in a battle thread.
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#24 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow said:

As for Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka, I'm not sure if this counts, but while on Mortis Anakin was able to "tame" the Son and the Daughter. I get he's the Chosen One and all that, but that doesn't make him the most powerful Force user.

A matter of position, not power. His status as the Chosen One allowed him to do this, otherwise it was clearly shown that he was being slapped around like a feather in a thunderstorm.

@shroudofsorrow said:

I'd say that's poor writing personally. Or PIS so Zannah would win. Probably both.

Kind of. Though Bane had no aptitude for sorcery and I believe in Path of Destruction he said he could not tap into the power of Lake Naath (which contained the power of Ambria)?

There was power in Lake Naath, but it was power he couldn't draw on.

-- Taken from Path of Destruction

Though I'd kind of agree with you.

@shroudofsorrow said:

So I would be right to say that Post Bane Trilogy Zannah>Bane yes?

Yes.

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#25 Posted by JediXMan (42088 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

Kind of. Though Bane had no aptitude for sorcery and I believe in Path of Destruction he said he could not tap into the power of Lake Naath (which contained the power of Ambria)?

There was power in Lake Naath, but it was power he couldn't draw on.

-- Taken from Path of Destruction

That's in Path of Destruction; it's possible that he was able to draw on it come Dynasty of Evil. I think, but I'm not sure, it showed Bane meditating near the lake and drawing a little power from Ambria. Can't confirm right now.

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#26 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

To be honest, the duel being written in such a way that Zannah had to amp herself in order to overpower Bane is just mediocre writing in general. Karpyshyn spent so much time in the Bane trilogy trying to convince the reader how amazingly powerful Bane is at the expense of Zannah. She had no character depth whatsoever (though in fairness, neither did in Bane in the latter two novels), and her powers for the most part were never too overwhelming. We know from canon sources that she did in fact supersede Bane's powers, probably because her potency in the Force was enhanced after killing her master (since Banite apprentices receive their master's power after the master dies), but Karpyshyn never wrote in the trilogy anything that convinced the reader Zannah was actually superior to Bane. It really is nonsense because the entire point of the story is that Zannah is supposed to be more powerful than Bane in accordance with the Banite system. Karpyshyn just never bore that out in his narrative.

Not all Banite Apprentices are better than their masters. Sidious>>>>>All of his apprentices put together unless you count Luke, and Luke didn't become better than Sidious until after his brief turn to the Dark Side. I mean yeah, if Anakin hadn't had to be rebuilt with cybernetics he would have eventually become more powerful but there's nothing that can be said of Maul and Dooku.

And what of Darth Cognus, Darth Zannah's apprentice? Does she have any feats of note?

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#27 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow said: 

unless you count Luke, and Luke didn't become better than Sidious until after his brief turn to the Dark Side.

Luke was never a Banite Sith, and he never turned to the dark side. He only studied it.
 

I mean yeah, if Anakin hadn't had to be rebuilt with cybernetics he would have eventually become more powerful but there's nothing that can be said of Maul and Dooku.

Maul and Dooku were never intended to last, and Anakin's potential being diminished speaks nothing about the Banite line because Post-Mustafar Vader was only partially a Banite Sith. Sidious abolished the Rule of Two once the New Order had been established and never meant to be supplanted from his rule over the galaxy. He wanted Vader to restore his potential but had no intention to allow Vader to succeed him.
 
The fact is, every Banite Sith up until Maul's induction superseded their masters. They all killed their masters; they all received their masters' powers. The only Banite Sith who were inferior to their masters were Maul, Tyranus, and Vader, and all of them can be attributed to the fact that their master never wanted them to become more powerful. In the case of Maul and Tyranus, this is because they were temporary apprentices. Maul was defeated and lost for years, and Tyranus proved less desirable as an apprentice than Anakin, who showed potential as a Sith candidate when he killed Tyranus. Vader lost his potential and never gained it back. Maul, Tyranus, and Vader have nothing to do with any other Banite Sith. Everyone before them exceeded their masters. 
 

And what of Darth Cognus, Darth Zannah's apprentice? Does she have any feats of note?

Why don't you just read Dynasty of Evil for yourself instead of derailing the thread? This whole Banite Sith master/apprentice issue is already off-topic and, honestly, a waste of time. Zannah after killing Bane became more powerful than Bane, but we have no way to properly use Post-DOE Zannah in a thread because of her lack of showings.
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#28 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Luke was never a Banite Sith, and he never turned to the dark side. He only studied it.

He briefly turned to the DS and became Palpatine's Sith apprentice did he not? I've read that he almost became a second Vader before his sister was able to pull him back from the Dark Side.

@Silver2467 said:

Maul and Dooku were never intended to last, and Anakin's potential being diminished speaks nothing about the Banite line because Post-Mustafar Vader was only partially a Banite Sith. Sidious abolished the Rule of Two once the New Order had been established and never meant to be supplanted from his rule over the galaxy. He wanted Vader to restore his potential but had no intention to allow Vader to succeed him.

Maul was intended to last at first. Palpatine just abandoned him when he became aware of Anakin Skywalker, but he didn't become aware of Anakin until later. I suppose then it would be fair to assume that had Annie never entered the equation Maul may have eventually risen up against Sidious but there's little point speculating about that.

You say that Sidious abandoned the Rule of Two yet isn't the idea with The Emperor's Hands, Inquisitors and Prophets of the Dark Side is that they are force-sensitive minions but not full Sith? Or by "abandoning the Rule of Two" do you mean he abandoned the part of "apprentice rises up to kill the master"

And yes, I know this is off-topic, but the greater debate has been pretty much settled. I just want to have some questions answered, that's all.

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#29 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow said: 

He briefly turned to the DS and became Palpatine's Sith apprentice did he not? I've read that he almost became a second Vader before his sister was able to pull him back from the Dark Side.

Luke never turned to the dark side. Sources have already told us that, such as The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, The Ultimate Visual Guide, The Hand of Thrawn duology, and the circumstance surrounding his fall itself. He learned and in some cases used the dark side and nearly fell to it; he never became a full dark sider. And, no, Luke was not a Sith; he was pronounced a Dark Jedi by Palpatine. 
 

Maul was intended to last at first. Palpatine just abandoned him when he became aware of Anakin Skywalker, but he didn't become aware of Anakin until later. I suppose then it would be fair to assume that had Annie never entered the equation Maul may have eventually risen up against Sidious but there's little point speculating about that.

Lucas himself has stated in no uncertain terms that neither Maul nor Tyranus had the potential to rival Sidious; so I have no reason to assume that Maul could have served Sidious' intentions for long. Palpatine would have had to find a new candidate eventually because Maul was not powerful enough or politically influential enough to be useful, and Sidious was already interested in inviting Dooku into the Sith ranks before Maul died. 
 

You say that Sidious abandoned the Rule of Two yet isn't the idea with The Emperor's Hands, Inquisitors and Prophets of the Dark Side is that they are force-sensitive minions but not full Sith? Or by "abandoning the Rule of Two" do you mean he abandoned the part of "apprentice rises up to kill the master"

I mean Sidious abandoned the Rule of Two in that he had no desire to be succeeded by a more powerful apprentice. He expired the Rule of Two and replaced it with the Rule of One, which conditioned that he was the Sith to rule indefinitely. The reason Palpatine needed Vader or Luke as apprentices was, as Lucas pointed out, to have an apprentice powerful enough to help him maintain rule over the galaxy. Sidious trained Vader as an apprentice, wanted Vader to regain his potential, and only allowed there to be two Sith at any one time to honor Bane's tradition, but he had no plans to be succeeded. And he would have to do this in any case. For the Empire to have any semblance of order, the rulers of the Empire, which is to say the Sith, would need to cooperate with one another. If they perpetuated the Banite infighting between the master and apprentice, that could damage the stability of the Empire. Furthermore, the whole point of the Rule of Two was to produce a Sith Lord powerful enough to overthrow the Republic. Once Palpatine had done that, there was no more need for the Rule of Two because it had served its function and could then be retired. Sidious still kept Vader as a Sith apprentice, but he believed that even if Vader regained his potential, Sidious' own control over the Empire and the Force would subsist regardless.
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#30 Posted by shroudofsorrow (5461 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Luke never turned to the dark side. Sources have already told us that, such as The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, The Ultimate Visual Guide, The Hand of Thrawn duology, and the circumstance surrounding his fall itself. He learned and in some cases used the dark side and nearly fell to it; he never became a full dark sider. And, no, Luke was not a Sith; he was pronounced a Dark Jedi by Palpatine.

That's kind of what I said. He nearly turned to the Dark Side but was saved by Leia's intervention.

@Silver2467 said:

Lucas himself has stated in no uncertain terms that neither Maul nor Tyranus had the potential to rival Sidious; so I have no reason to assume that Maul could have served Sidious' intentions for long. Palpatine would have had to find a new candidate eventually because Maul was not powerful enough or politically influential enough to be useful, and Sidious was already interested in inviting Dooku into the Sith ranks before Maul died.

Maul didn't die thanks to the CW show but I see what you're getting at here.

@Silver2467 said:

I mean Sidious abandoned the Rule of Two in that he had no desire to be succeeded by a more powerful apprentice. He expired the Rule of Two and replaced it with the Rule of One, which conditioned that he was the Sith to rule indefinitely. The reason Palpatine needed Vader or Luke as apprentices was, as Lucas pointed out, to have an apprentice powerful enough to help him maintain rule over the galaxy. Sidious trained Vader as an apprentice, wanted Vader to regain his potential, and only allowed there to be two Sith at any one time to honor Bane's tradition, but he had no plans to be succeeded. And he would have to do this in any case. For the Empire to have any semblance of order, the rulers of the Empire, which is to say the Sith, would need to cooperate with one another. If they perpetuated the Banite infighting between the master and apprentice, that could damage the stability of the Empire. Furthermore, the whole point of the Rule of Two was to produce a Sith Lord powerful enough to overthrow the Republic. Once Palpatine had done that, there was no more need for the Rule of Two because it had served its function and could then be retired. Sidious still kept Vader as a Sith apprentice, but he believed that even if Vader regained his potential, Sidious' own control over the Empire and the Force would subsist regardless.

That's kind of what I thought. Thanks for clearing that up.

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#31 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@shroudofsorrow said: 

That's kind of what I said. He nearly turned to the Dark Side but was saved by Leia's intervention.

Oh. The impression I gained from your post was that he did turn to the dark side and then renounced with Leia's help, which is not entirely accurate. 
 

Maul didn't die thanks to the CW show but I see what you're getting at here.

Yes, Maul really would never have built the cause of the Sith as well as Dooku could. Maul was a brilliant combatant, a notable Force adept, and a good strategist, but he lacked political or sociable acumen. Dooku possessed more of the latter, and as Plagueis put it: "The future of the Sith no longer hinges on physical prowess but on political cunning. The new Sith will rule less by brute force than by means of instilling fear." Dooku was the preferable choice because of his power but also because of his reputation for integrity and his diplomatic and political talents.
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#32 Posted by JamesKM716 (2018 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

The fact is, every Banite Sith up until Maul's induction superseded their masters. They all killed their masters; they all received their masters' powers. The only Banite Sith who were inferior to their masters were Maul, Tyranus, and Vader, and all of them can be attributed to the fact that their master never wanted them to become more powerful. In the case of Maul and Tyranus, this is because they were temporary apprentices. Maul was defeated and lost for years, and Tyranus proved less desirable as an apprentice than Anakin, who showed potential as a Sith candidate when he killed Tyranus. Vader lost his potential and never gained it back. Maul, Tyranus, and Vader have nothing to do with any other Banite Sith. Everyone before them exceeded their masters.

One could argue that Plagueis didn't want Sidious to become more powerful.

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#33 Posted by Silver2467 (16759 posts) - - Show Bio
@JamesKM716: Considering that Plagueis wanted himself and Sidious to rule the galaxy as equals, that very well could be. Sidious was not actually the first of the Banite Sith to resign the Rule of Two. Plagueis and Tenebrous had also decided it had reached the limits of its continued usefulness. This is understandable, however. The Rule of Two was a brilliant tactic, but it had to come to an end eventually. If the Rule of Two was to be taken to its most extreme and logical conclusion, then the Sith would never overthrow the Republic because they would be clandestinely raising up new apprentices to usurp their masters indefinitely. At some point or another, a Sith Lord had to just choose not to proliferate that stricture so they could begin exacting the fullness of their Grand Plan. Plagueis and Tenebrous of course were wrong in believing that they were the ones to spearhead the Sith into galactic ascendancy, but Sidious was correct when he believed he was the one to do so.
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#34 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: Possibly, but I'm not waiting on chance.

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#35 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (1447 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 - The Sith win 10/10

Round 2 - the Sith win 8/10